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00:10:35 <klutometis> Riastradh: Would you say that `&cs.' is the plural of `&c.' (which is itself a plural, &c.)?
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00:23:22 <didi> Is anyone familiar with gtk-server?
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00:46:32 <Riastradh> klutometis, I don't know why you would want to pluralize `et cetera'...
00:48:45 <bremner_> The bad academic paper was littered with et ceteras?
00:49:08 <Riastradh> appamatto, make sure LD_LIBRARY_PATH is empty, and make sure that you linked chibi-scheme with -R/usr/local/whatever/chibi-scheme-1.2.3.4.5/lib (i.e. -R$(LIBDIR)), and not with -R/home/mumble/destdir/whatever/lib or anything (i.e. not -R$(DESTDIR)$(LIBDIR)).
00:49:53 <Riastradh> bremner_, no need to pluralize there.  `The bad academic paper was littered with ``&c.''.'
00:50:19 <bremner_> phew. Glad we got that sorted out ;)
00:50:25 Senjai [80bdb12a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.189.177.42] has joined #scheme
00:50:36 <Senjai> is anyone able to help with mutable variables?
00:50:54 <didi> Senjai: What do you mean?
00:51:20 <Senjai> Im trying to figure out a question for my exam prep
00:51:36 <Senjai> Ill post it to pastebin?
00:51:45 <bremner_> worth a try
00:51:55 <didi> Senjai: Go for ir.
00:51:57 <didi> s/ir/it
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00:54:25 <Senjai> Ok one sec\
00:54:31 <Riastradh> lisppaste: url
00:54:31 <lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste.
00:54:34 <Senjai> http://codepad.org/9ZWQvxNA
00:54:55 <Senjai> it says emp is a function\
00:55:03 <Senjai> if i replace emp with E1 or E2 it works\\
00:55:16 <Senjai> but i don't know how to pass an employee with a name that is not globally known
00:55:31 <klutometis> Riastradh: I have a map from HTTP status codes to functions which display the HTTP status, &c. (i.e. status header, content header, eol, prolog, doctype); the map is called: `http-status-code->display-status-&c.'; the values of the map are called `display-status-&cs.'.
00:55:39 <klutometis> I'm dealing with a pathological meta-plural.
00:56:14 <Riastradh> klutometis, why not call it HTTP-STATUS-DISPLAYER?  (Is there a sensible inverse map?  If not, it's better to avoid ->.)
00:56:23 <Riastradh> Or HTTP-STATUS-DISPLAY-PROCEDURE?
00:56:43 <klutometis> Interesting; if one avoids `->', what's an alternative?
00:57:27 <Senjai> didi, do you understand my dilemma?
00:57:41 <didi> Senjai: More or less.
00:58:17 <Senjai> didi, normally in c++ i'd pass the variable by reference and modify the memory\
00:58:28 <Riastradh> Senjai, all that you've done with SET! in RAISE is to change the value of the local variable EMP in RAISE.  If you run (RAISE X), the procedure doesn't know anything about X.
00:59:04 <Riastradh> Senjai, C++ has no analogue of SET!.  Without SET!, you can pretend that every argument is passed by const reference.
00:59:30 <Senjai> I don't know how to do that in scheme, so how can i modify an employee that is external to the function without knowing the name of the function
00:59:56 <Senjai> If i want to give Emp4 a raise, but the function doesn't know that the name of the employee is Emp4, how can I give Emp4  raise\
00:59:58 <Riastradh> You can modify the employee object itself, with SET-EMPLOYEE-SALARY!.
00:59:59 <Senjai> a raise*
01:00:10 <Riastradh> You can return a new employee instead, and if the caller wants to store it in a local variable, the caller can use SET!.
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01:00:33 *Riastradh* vanishes.
01:01:15 <cky> appamatto: Did you do a "hg revert --all" first?
01:01:26 <Senjai> This is a problem for exam prep\
01:01:30 <Senjai> on a review sheet
01:01:30 <cky> appamatto: Not sure if you had local changes that could be clobbering things.
01:01:43 <Senjai> So i don't have that flexibity
01:02:09 <Senjai> How can i pass say. E2 to (raise) and have it set! E2, without the function internally knowing that E2 exists
01:02:16 <cky> klutometis: As I put it (back when that article was first doing the rounds in #scheme), Lisp turns almost all technical problems into bikeshed problems.
01:02:35 <cky> klutometis: Unfortunately, as a friend of mine puts it, solving the bikeshed problem is NP-Hard. ;-)
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01:03:07 <klutometis> cky: heh; that's hilarious, actually. i didn't realize it was a repost.
01:03:31 <cky> :-)
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01:06:31 <Senjai> Does anyoneknowhow i could solve this problem
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01:11:28 <didi> Senjai: You have to use structs?
01:11:55 <Senjai> Yes
01:12:00 <Senjai> The question is:
01:12:23 <Senjai> The googlepersonnel system each employee has a first name last name and a salary
01:12:35 <Senjai> Question A: Design a data definition to represent employees
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01:13:14 <Senjai> Question B: Design a function that consumes Employeem produces void and mutates the employee to give them a 10% raise
01:13:22 <didi> Senjai: Wouldn't a list be sufficient?
01:13:37 <didi> ("foo" "bar" 42)
01:13:43 <Senjai> Keeping a list of employees in the syste?
01:13:57 <Senjai> sorry for speling errors, not using a familiar keyboard\
01:14:10 <didi> Senjai: No, like: (define foo '("bar" "foo" 42))
01:14:36 <Senjai> and set! each item in the list?
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01:14:45 <didi> I'm not familiar with structs.
01:15:14 <Senjai> I don't know, I think our prof wants us to consume an employee, and modify that employee's salary attribute so if that employee is called later in the program it would have the changed attribute\
01:15:42 <didi> Senjai: As Riastradh said, you can always set! the result.
01:15:54 <Senjai> I don't understand\
01:16:12 <Senjai> I cant provide a new employee, because then the employee is not modified it is reproduced
01:16:39 <Senjai> In order to modify existing employees it seems like the function requires knowing every employee that exists
01:17:24 <Senjai> It is not dynamic, I can easily (set! E1 ...) (set! E2 ..) but what if their names aren't E2 or E1, what if the programmer adds an employee to the system
01:17:33 <Senjai> they would have to change the function entirely
01:18:33 <didi> Senjai: How advanced you are in your course? Did you learn dispatches yet?
01:19:19 <Senjai> Possibly, he may have called it someting else
01:19:33 <Senjai> We are allowed to use advanced topics so long as they are used properly
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01:22:14 <didi> Senjai: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-22.html#%_sec_3.3
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01:26:21 <Senjai> http://codepad.org/XCMKcxRe is the best i can do, i got about 8 miutes before i have to leave for the exam. If you're not familiar with structs (raises) does everything that needs to be done with structs properly. I just want to set a passed employee to a new value\
01:26:55 <Senjai> didi, Like i want to pass (raise Employee2) to Change the value of Employee2
01:28:03 <Senjai> or (raise emp)  I cant use (set! emp value) because emp returns a structure..
01:28:36 <didi> Senjai: I think I can't help you. Maybe someone else can. Good luck.
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01:28:59 <foof> appamatto: are you doing (import (scheme)) ?
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01:35:50 <foof> appamatto: yes (re: finalizers)
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01:36:06 <foof> no, chibi.html won't be online until I wrap up the 0.4 release
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03:06:25 <Riastradh> Senjai, use the procedure SET-EMPLOYEE-SALARY! defined by DEFINE-STRUCT.
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03:32:30 <appamatto> foof, yes, I just figured out the (import (scheme)) part
03:33:16 <appamatto> foof, are you interested in sqlite bindings?
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03:51:12 <ASau> Riastradh: we used a creative word composition: <<plokhaja statjja, zarazhjonnaja "itedemami">> (derived from "i t.d.", "i tak dalee", "&c")
03:52:27 <Riastradh> Use Cyrillic; I can't read your transliterations!
03:55:20 <ASau> << ,  >> (  " ..", "  ",  "&c")
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03:56:50 <ASau> (Note hidden connotations with Greek loan words like "ecsema".)
03:57:18 <ASau> (Or is it Latin?)
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04:15:16 <foof> appamatto: I think someone else wrote sqlite bindings.
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04:26:08 <jcowan> appamatto: That would be Doug Currie <doug dot currie at gmail dot com>
04:26:17 <jcowan> I don't know that he ever published his bindings, though.
04:26:22 <jcowan> You could ask him.
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04:31:43 <infid> what package for linux can i get to write some basic lisp code in an interactive command prompt?
04:33:07 <Binario01> maybe the mit-scheme package?  I know that has an interactive prompt
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04:35:14 <infid> perfect thanks
04:35:26 <infid> the drscheme thing was weird and hard to get working
04:36:18 <Binario01> yeah, in fact I'm reading a scheme tutorial and following along with mit-scheme right now :)
04:36:32 <Binario01> I just started in scheme a few days ago
04:37:04 <infid> :)
04:37:36 <Binario01> are you experienced at all with it?
04:38:00 <infid> barely at all
04:38:13 <infid> i started learning it years ago and stopped until now
04:38:44 <Binario01> okay, we're in a similar level then :)
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04:50:25 <ohwow> Why don't you use DrRacket?
04:50:31 <ohwow> it's pretty nice
04:50:45 <ohwow> and it has command-line interface too, just start `racket'
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04:58:59 <infid> ohwow: i dont see a package for it in linux
04:59:04 <infid> with apt anyway
04:59:59 <ohwow> http://packages.debian.org/sid/racket
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05:55:17 <infid> i have to get the source i guess, i have ubuntu lucid lynx
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06:52:54 <EM03> anyone here use racket for web dev?
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08:15:30 <ecraven> Riastradh: i've run into a problem when building the mit-scheme package with arch linux. on x86_64, it hangs on building the microcode when running "./m4-dos -P "WIN32,1" -P "WCC386R,1" < i386.m4 > i386-ntw.asm". should that even be run on x86_64? do i correctly surmise that this is a problem related to correctly detecting the cpu architecture?
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08:43:56 <Bahman> Hi all!
08:46:47 <EM03> anyone here a freelancer?
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11:54:15 <ecraven> why does the MIT-SCHEME function WRITE-XML always stop writing after 118784 bytes?
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16:37:51 <EM03> where is a good place to find some freelancers for scheme? hehe
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17:20:53 <cky> EM03: are you looking for people to code for you, or are you looking to find work?
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17:40:57 <realitygrill> prob find work
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17:55:53 <nome> EM03: if you're currently employed and are looking for an opportunity to use scheme, are you in a position to make such an opportunity yourself? probably refit/reimplement an existing app with a scheme-based layer?
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18:09:51 <cky> nome: Or just rewrite an existing app in Scheme. ;-)
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18:21:09 <Riastradh> ecraven, no, `m4-dos' is run on the i386 assembly whenever the tree is set up.  (I don't know why; I don't know anything about the Windows build.)  Do you have m4 installed?  What happens when you run the m4-dos script yourself?  If it still hangs, what happens if you run it with `sh -x'?
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18:22:46 <Blkt> good evening everyone
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18:39:51 <Bahman> Evening Blkt.
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18:44:22 <Blkt> hi
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19:08:51 <samth> nome, cky, EM03 is confused about the racket web server, and wants help
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19:09:33 <Jafet> He's spent two days in here failing to communicate any such thing
19:09:41 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
19:09:41 <Jafet> Poor soul.
19:10:41 <cky> Hahahaha.
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19:30:21 <teurastaja> how many r7rs drafts are to be written before the final release?
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19:30:47 <teurastaja> 3?
19:31:26 -!- yamanu [~yamanu@89.142.205.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
19:31:42 <teurastaja> communication skills? what?
19:32:43 <wingo> what.
19:32:48 <XTL> what.
19:32:54 <teurastaja> ?
19:33:22 <Riastradh> They speak English in What?
19:33:24 <jonrafkind> its true, teurastaja did wait a few billion femtoseconds without receiving an answer..
19:33:56 <wingo> teurastaja: we will know that number when the r7 comes out.  at least one it seems!
19:34:11 <XTL> I was hoping someone would finish that, but oh well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGkxcY7YFU
19:34:16 <teurastaja> so its a long thriller?
19:34:42 <wingo> teurastaja: and chills!  but yes.
19:36:47 <teurastaja> i started reading the draft but then i wondered if that were a good thing since im not fluent yet with older revisions
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19:38:42 <wingo> depends on for what purpose; surely reading is a good thing!
19:39:08 <C-Keen> and it is a well written text too
19:40:48 <teurastaja> i could take things for granted that arent yet implemented since i could possibly not tell some differences from earlier versions
19:43:09 <C-Keen> most of the stuff is implemented already in some schemes
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19:45:48 <teurastaja> damn this community split...
19:46:18 <C-Keen> the community is still here don't worry :)
19:46:44 <teurastaja> scattered
19:47:13 <C-Keen> and that's a Bad Thing?
19:47:43 <teurastaja> not only a bad thing but still...
19:50:46 <teurastaja> what are the first impressions from older scheme users on how its getting?
19:51:21 <teurastaja> theres not much on the internet yet...
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19:53:05 <fds> Some of the older Schemers are writing it, so they should be mildly pleased. :-)
19:55:12 <appamatto> more chibi troubles. If I do (import (srfi 39)) chibi can't find srfi/39/param.so
19:55:28 <Riastradh> Not necessarily, fds.  Suppose there were eighteen different parts, and I wrote one of them, but had nothing to do with the other seventeen, for which responsibility lay with a bunch of bungling nitwits infatuated by fexprs.  In that case, I might not be even mildly pleased with the result.
19:55:57 <appamatto> The file exists at /usr/local/stow/chibi/share/chibi/srfi/39/param.so
19:56:47 <appamatto> (and more relevantly is symlinked to /usr/local/share as well)
19:56:52 <teurastaja> Riastradh: lol
19:57:07 <teurastaja> whats wrong?
19:57:18 <EM03> cky: looking to pay some money so I can get started on the right track here
19:58:50 <cky> EM03: Nice.
20:00:19 <cky> EM03: I'm an experienced coder and I've done freelance work before. However, I'm not sure that I'm an experienced Schemer per se. :-) Like, I can write most any program I want to in Scheme, but, in terms of depth of knowledge, many people on this channel are well above my level.
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20:07:19 <klutometis> Riastradh: sorry to pester you on this point, but you mentioned that one should avoid `->' in identifiers if there's no sensible inverse map; is there an alternative to `->', or should one choose another naming convention altogether?
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20:12:09 <ASau> Riastradh: speak English in Lisp!
20:15:40 <jimrees_> k -- perhaps think in terms of constructors.   To convert A to B, (make-B A) ?
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20:16:37 <jimrees_> hmm, though if you had multiple converts for multiple "A" types, that might not be ideal.
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20:51:06 <fds> Riastradh: Good point!  I guess that is always a risk with design by committee.  Why don't you write your own language specification document?  It would surely be brilliant. :-)
20:53:16 <fds> ...And surely couldn't be worse than some other benevolent dictatorships.
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21:01:24 <Bahman> I'm gonna ask a strange thing here.  Just please bear with me till the end.
21:02:05 <Bahman> I live in Iran.  There's no way to buy a book from online sites like Amazon because of the sanctions.
21:02:53 <Bahman> Do you folks consider it rude to ask if anyone is willing to send me a copy of "The Seasoned Schemer"?
21:04:50 <Riastradh> Well, that's pretty dumb of `us'.  Do you particularly want a paper copy?  If not, perhaps you can find an electronic copy through BitTorrent.  I presume that US copyright law doesn't apply to Iran, so you might not even be violating copyright by doing that...
21:06:12 <Bahman> Riastradh: Just an e-copy.
21:06:22 <Bahman> I'll search in torrents.  Thanks.
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21:52:26 <appamatto> Okay, many problems were leading to chibi not working right
21:52:50 <appamatto> Only one of them was not my fault: /usr/local/lib wasn't in ld.so.conf in Arch Linux
21:53:04 <appamatto> the others are too embarassing to mention :P
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22:15:20 <klutometis> appamatto: that's not your fault? i always have to add /usr/local/lib to ld.so.conf; i thought it was one of the basic housekeeping things in a distro.
22:16:27 <klutometis> though it does seem a little miserly on the part of the distros not to help me out in that respect.
22:17:13 <fds> It's added by default in Debian.
22:18:29 <klutometis> fds: nice; i always did have the feeling that debian was somewhat enlightened. maybe i should get off of the fedora train.
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22:20:01 <appamatto> Hmm
22:20:17 <appamatto> open-input-stream is not returning eof when my string has been read
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22:22:30 <appamatto> or maybe it is....
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22:23:46 <fds> I've never ventured onto the RPM side of the tracks, but I'm a happy Debianista. :-)
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23:41:58 <klutometis> Does anyone know of a mechanism for documenting Scheme-code in-source, so to speak, and generating e.g. PDFs; similar to, say, noweb, doxygen, javadoc, etc.?
23:42:37 <klutometis> I revisit this question every once and a while, but haven't found a satisfactory solution; arcfide mentioned something a while back, and eli something else.
23:43:16 <klutometis> I'm "this close" to just implementing some dumb-ass mechanism and calling it a day; or maybe I'll co-opt emacs' org-mode: it seems to have some noweb-like facilities.
23:43:35 <klutometis> Viz., <http://orgmode.org/guide/Working-With-Source-Code.html>.
23:44:00 <bremner_> klutometis: scribble can do that for racket, I guess.
23:44:11 <klutometis> bremner_: oh, yeah; maybe that's what eli mentioned.
23:44:51 <klutometis> specifically this, i take it: <http://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/lp.html>.
23:46:38 <bremner_> I guess so, I don't have personal experience.
23:46:41 <klutometis> i suppose that's roughly equivalent to org-mode's noweb facilities; whereas the latter, though, are racket-agnostic and well-supported in emacs.
23:48:04 <eli> I don't know what org-mode has, but real LP tools other than noweb are very rare.
23:48:13 <eli> (And, IMO, for a good reason.)
23:48:45 <klutometis> it seems like there's roughly two models: the noweb model, where composite docs have to be tangled to produce useable code; and the doxygen model, where special documentation directives are encoded in the executable source code.
23:49:06 <klutometis> eli: what reason, do you think?
23:49:07 <eli> No, there's more.
23:49:32 <eli> There's the foodoc approach (which is probably the doxygen that you mention),
23:49:35 <eli> there's LP,
23:49:50 <eli> and there's semi-LP, which is actually something completely different from LP.
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23:50:18 <eli> The thing that I hate about LP (the real one) is that it is inherently (and intentionally) breaking lexical scope.
23:50:21 <klutometis> eli: mind elaborating on the third? is it scribble-esque?
23:50:29 <klutometis> eli: good point
23:50:33 <eli> No.
23:50:55 <eli> If you look for literate programming you soon run into Haskell-related mentions of how it's built into the language.
23:51:00 <eli> Those are usually lies.
23:51:10 <eli> What they have is exactly that semi-LP thing.
23:51:30 <bremner_> it's not so bad though, if a little simple-minded
23:51:57 <eli> Not at all -- in fact, it's much saner than real LP.
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23:52:22 <eli> It just annoyed me that they used it as a bogus advertising hook.
23:53:09 <eli> I'm the one who change the wikipedia article from "The Haskell programming language has native support for literate programming." by adding "semi-"
23:53:47 <bremner_> unfortunately semi-literate sounds like an insult
23:54:14 <klutometis> eli: bizarre; look at <http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Literate_programming>, it looks like you can embed latex directly in haskell source?
23:54:39 <eli> bremner_: the term is not my choice.
23:54:43 <klutometis> and then there's <http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haddock>; but i'm not sure what special source-annotations it requires.
23:55:00 <bremner_> eli: ah, OK.
23:55:09 <klutometis> maybe there's yet another category: lisp and python docstrings.
23:55:37 <eli> klutometis: Yes, there are those, and there's obviously a few more.
23:55:52 <eli> klutometis: And re that haskell.org web page -- that's exactly the lie that I was talking about.
23:56:39 <eli> In any case, what you get with that semi-LP thing is much less than LP, and it should be mostly independent than *tex.
23:56:40 <klutometis> damn; i'd like something benign and unobtrusive. might have to think about this before i spend my time implementing something.
23:57:25 <masm> eli: The real LP is the one that allows you to have named code segments and use them in other segments?
23:57:43 <masm> Is that the difference between LP and semi?
23:58:12 <eli> masm: Yes, and the result is much more complicated since you can have the code written in random order.
23:58:25 <masm> OK.
23:58:39 <eli> In contrast, semi-LP basically means that you have some (line-oriented, usually) way to identify the documentation and the code.
23:59:00 <eli> So "tangle" and "weave" are actually simple sed or awk one-liners.
23:59:21 <masm> Right.
23:59:31 <masm> I used CWEB a little.
23:59:48 <masm> Well... it makes a lot of sense in some languages... namely in the original Pascal, right?