00:02:51 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 00:02:59 -!- Broa_ [~Broa@149.Red-83-50-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Broa_] 00:05:29 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:06:15 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-59-220.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:47 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:07:04 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 00:12:30 -!- xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:13:08 xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has joined #scheme 00:25:26 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-182-211.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:39:19 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@ip70-176-81-92.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 00:39:21 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@ip70-176-81-92.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:39:21 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:42:40 ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-71-170-15-148.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:50:33 saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has joined #scheme 00:51:00 mwolfe [~michael@cpe-67-49-72-40.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:52:11 Is it really true that Lisp machine software was entirely in Zetalisp, with no assembly language component? 00:57:15 uh, no. 00:57:27 the "microcode" was assembly language 00:58:01 and it implemented a stack machine 01:00:45 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:01:24 That's what I thought. So the myth of "Lisp all the way down" is just that? 01:03:58 *jcowan* weeds out the Peter Norvig / Erik Naggum collision in his hash table. 01:15:09 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-49-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 01:19:04 well, the amount of code written in assembly was minimal 01:19:27 do you count the microcode of your intel processor as a speck on the x86 architecture? 01:19:46 No, I count the x86 architecture as a speck on the processor. 01:19:53 meh 01:20:12 there was precious little code written in assembly, IIUC 01:21:46 the device drivers are in Lisp 01:22:54 jcowan: it would be trivial to implement hardware that would implement lambda calculus or something close. 01:23:04 jcowan: then everything would be lisp down to the hardware. 01:23:33 has been done in the past -- there were chips that interpreted sexps represented as cons cells... ouch 01:23:38 Yes. 01:23:47 not very efficient 01:24:19 It was only research hardware. 01:24:47 Efficiency is related to econony, not to technique. 01:26:19 Fare, you're referring to the TIGRE graph reduction engine? 01:26:47 I assumed he was referring to the Steele/Sussman chip 01:27:43 "Design of a Lisp-Based Microprocessor" 01:27:54 http://www.scribd.com/doc/938809/Design-of-a-LISPBased-Microprocessor 01:29:42 gnomon, maybe. There were several such attempts. 01:30:10 I think some french academics did about the same at about the same time. 01:31:48 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:32:48 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:36:29 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-170924.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:36:43 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:38:26 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:39:36 astertronistictr [~astertron@be-sun08.ic.ucsc.edu] has joined #scheme 01:39:55 jfarmer [~jfarmer@be-sun09.ic.ucsc.edu] has joined #scheme 01:40:56 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-15.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:59 -!- astertronistictr [~astertron@be-sun08.ic.ucsc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 01:42:53 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 01:44:25 vitnguye [~vitnguye@be-sun07.ic.ucsc.edu] has joined #scheme 01:44:45 mic check 01:45:02 -!- jfarmer [~jfarmer@be-sun09.ic.ucsc.edu] has left #scheme 01:45:09 Ignore meeeeee 01:45:34 *thump* *thump* is this thing on? 01:45:43 beep beep 01:46:02 *feedback 01:46:05 That's metaphysically absurd, man; how can I know what _you_ hear? 01:47:23 astertronistic [~astertron@be-sun08.ic.ucsc.edu] has joined #scheme 01:47:23 That's easy. *insert sounds of seagulls* 01:47:42 caw caw caw 01:47:43 "Said the little lamb to the shepherd boy, 'Do you hear what I hear?'" 01:48:34 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 01:48:42 yes, I can definitly hear the narrator 01:49:55 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-pcvdohyzfcciuvkk] has joined #scheme 01:51:40 This concludes the test of this chat. *static* 01:52:02 -!- vitnguye [~vitnguye@be-sun07.ic.ucsc.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:54:26 bipt [~bpt@user-0c8h24l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 01:55:20 Had this been a real emergency, we'd have used proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation. 01:56:43 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:58:20 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 02:00:20 -!- AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: foobar] 02:11:37 -!- bipt [~bpt@user-0c8h24l.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:15:43 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 02:15:50 cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:16:00 bipt [~bpt@user-0c8h24l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 02:18:45 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Client Quit] 02:19:28 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 02:29:53 -!- geoffhill [~geoffhill@wireless-165-124-144-96.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:32:05 -!- cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:32:05 cipher [~cipher@unaffiliated/cipher] has joined #scheme 02:36:16 geoffhill [~geoffhill@wireless-165-124-144-96.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #scheme 02:36:38 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-71-170-15-148.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:43:09 -!- ijp` [~user@host86-162-107-37.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:46:39 myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 02:52:52 offby1: Except as modified by Hartman's Law 02:53:04 do tell 02:54:14 which states that any text on punctuation, spelling, or grammar contains at least one eror. 02:59:03 Do statements about Hartman's Law contain at least one error? 02:59:49 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-59-220.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:00:46 -!- astertronistic [~astertron@be-sun08.ic.ucsc.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:02:02 If not, then they do. 03:10:59 -!- dlila [~dlila@99.230.47.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:12:13 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:15:15 "This statement contain exactly two errors" 03:21:43 foof: ping 03:31:32 ha. 03:36:01 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:41:03 phao [phao@189.119.193.84] has joined #scheme 03:41:37 my favorite: "This sentence contains one numeral 2 many." 03:46:36 -!- phao [phao@189.119.193.84] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:46:41 phao_ [phao@189.119.193.84] has joined #scheme 03:46:45 -!- phao_ is now known as phao 03:46:57 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:47:06 -!- phao [phao@189.119.193.84] has left #scheme 03:47:22 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:47:22 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:47:22 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 03:47:51 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 03:50:45 mine: "Ur Mom" 03:51:23 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:54:18 jcowan: pong 03:57:59 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:59:10 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:00:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-5.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:08:17 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:09:22 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:15:16 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:29 "Your mom" jokes got a lot less funny once she started cracking them too. 04:22:20 foof: I have a bunch more changes to get in, can you hold off one more day? 04:22:30 I'll do the editing myself 04:22:57 What sort of changes? You're working off the latest head, right? 04:23:14 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-pcvdohyzfcciuvkk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23:59 Close to the latest 04:24:02 I'll correlate 04:24:27 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-kxxbrqqclmkbvuie] has joined #scheme 04:24:28 I already did everything you mentioned in your last mail. 04:36:55 -!- saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 04:39:22 Yes, these things are new 04:40:02 How do I make hg spew the most recent patch? 04:47:27 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-49-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:52:45 foof: I'm pulling your current changes and will add mine to that branch and push. 04:52:57 I was 5 changesets behind 04:53:31 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:57:36 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:04:31 ok 05:05:02 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:06:44 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #scheme 05:07:29 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:08:10 But what are the general changes you're making? 05:08:17 -!- mathk_ is now known as mathk 05:11:59 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:12:55 nothing general, just minor local crap 05:13:38 You'd already done most of it, but there were a few left, e.g. 0.0/0.0 is a NaN that represents "any number", not "no number" which would be something like 1.0/0.0 05:15:07 *Riastradh* blinks. 05:16:22 0.0/0.0 yields a NaN that represents `not a number' (when the division by zero exception is not trapped)... 05:16:53 Yes, but there are semantically different kinds of NaNs 05:16:56 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:17:06 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:17:12 0.0/0.0 could be any number at all, so NaN is returned. 1.0/0.0 could not be any number, so NaN is returned. 05:17:24 1.0/0.0 does not yield a NaN at all. 05:17:34 Arrgh. 05:17:39 You're right. 05:17:45 But 0.0/0.0 is still a non-example 05:17:52 or rather it is an example of "any number at all" 05:18:06 0.0/0.0 could not be any number at all. There isn't even any sensible limiting process by which to interpret it, like there is with 1.0/0.0 or -1.0/0.0. 05:18:41 IN the sense that x * 0.0 = 0.0 for any x at all. 05:18:54 s/any x/any finite x/ 05:19:19 We exclude 0/0 because it is non-unique, not because it is nonexistent. 05:19:27 jcowan: NaN is a bit like SQL NULL. It's "result indeterminate", essentially 05:19:43 Sure. My point is that there are various reasons for indeterminacy. 05:19:49 Sure. 05:19:58 But I need a good example for "no number fits here" indeterminacy. 05:20:06 log(0) 05:20:08 I had 0/0 and now 1/0, but both are wrong. 05:20:12 Ah, excellent. 05:21:41 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:21:44 nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-36-71.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 05:21:57 Hmm, that's still a terrible example; apparently two implementations I tried returns -inf. 05:22:23 I think that's what IEEE dictates 05:22:33 that surely is the limiting value 05:22:35 (asin 2) 05:23:01 (log 0) is tantamount to division by zero. 05:23:12 Yes, true. 05:23:30 -!- mwolfe [~michael@cpe-67-49-72-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:39 (tan (/ pi 2)) would, in a perfect world, be such an indeterminate value, since it crosses signs as it crosses quadrants. 05:24:48 However, floating point being what it is.... 05:25:06 jcowan: You're using that as shorthand for (/ 0.0 0.0), right? 05:25:12 Yes. 05:25:15 There is a sensible interpretation of that by a limiting process, cky. 05:25:22 But I just adopted (asin 2) 05:25:28 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-88-62.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:25:39 Riastradh: Would such an interpretation be representable by Scheme's number system? 05:25:55 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:26:06 Of course, you can't get pi/2 exactly, so there is a sensible non-infinite floating-point number for that anyway. 05:26:07 foof: change committed and pushed 05:26:20 Riastradh: Exactly. 05:26:44 However, it's similar to, say, (log -1+0i) and (log -1-0i). 05:26:49 I'd been planning to make a proposal to use 0.0/0.0 (or 0/0 or 0.0/0) instead of +nan.0 (and similarly for the infinities), because it makes the numeric syntax much, much simpler. 05:26:50 Time for bed. 05:26:53 Have fun! 05:27:26 foof: I think it's too late for that, although I wouldn't oppose it as an alternative. 05:28:18 jcowan: Why too late? R5RS doesn't define +nan.0 or +inf.0, and I didn't expect WG1 to require R6RS compatibility. 05:28:22 I added the cases i and i to the definition of . 05:28:32 Granted, most implementations already support +nan.0, but we don't have to forbid that, just ask them to support the syntax we propose in addition. 05:28:42 cky: Technically yes, but many R5RS implementations have adopted it. 05:29:16 foof: I think that covers all the cases. 05:29:18 jcowan: You didn't really have the right to do that since I specifically disagreed with you on that point. 05:29:34 True, but in this case I am right and you are wrong. :-) 05:29:39 Feel free to remove it. 05:29:50 Ruh roh. *watches oncoming trainwreck* :-P 05:30:06 Hardly. We've disagreed before without train wrecks, though usually more privately. 05:30:16 Hehehe. :-) 05:30:23 I also added language about how either the real or the imaginary part or both could be infinite or NaN. 05:30:49 I don't know how to make hg cough up a diff between two committed states. 05:30:59 hg diff -c something, but what is the something? 05:31:10 It's going to require a vote either way, but the correct way to approach new proposals is to acknowledge they haven't passed yet, and not attempt to bias the vote by writing them up as if they had. 05:31:51 Concedo. 05:32:07 I didn't think of it as new, however. 05:32:11 For the record. 05:32:30 user18 [~user@unaffiliated/user17] has joined #scheme 05:33:13 As editors we have some freedom in things that are ambiguous or weren't clearly specified. 05:33:28 Quite. 05:33:43 But on that specific issue we had already disagreed, which means we have to assume the R5RS default. 05:35:28 What R5RS default? Infinity and NaN are not the subject of an R5RS default. 05:36:13 -!- user17 [~user@unaffiliated/user17] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:36:42 BTW, do you agree that a complex number can be partly infinite? 05:37:02 Right, so the default is no infinities or nan. We made an explicit exception in the ballot for +nan.0, +inf.0 and -inf.0. There was _no_ mention of imaginary infinities, so we can't assume them. 05:38:16 Commented out and pushed. 05:39:38 I don't expect partially infinite complex numbers to be controversial, but I'd like to hear arguments on both sides, and preferably see some use cases. 05:41:37 My big concern with "partial" NaNs is that I'd like to see implementations with a signalling NaN mode, which means there would never even be real NaNs directly represented. 05:42:13 This is allowed because NaNs are an optional extension to begin with. 05:42:18 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:44:41 In such a case, a partial NaN makes no more sense than a partial exception. 05:47:25 (For WG2 though I have no objection to nailing down the numeric semantics as tightly as you like, and defining a feature for such compliant implementations.) 05:47:42 Nobody uses signaling NaNs. 05:49:57 No doubt because they are difficult to work with. Wouldn't it be nice if you had floating point with C-level performance which could drop you into a debugger with a restartable exception the moment a computation first results in a NaN? Or are we decide such a thing should not be called "Scheme?" 05:51:39 The whole point of (quiet) NaNs was to replace FP exceptions, which turned out to be much more trouble than they were worth. 05:52:25 In a language like C without exceptions. This isn't C. 05:53:20 All I'm arguing for is the _potential_ to have a better system, or at least let people experiment with alternatives. 05:54:13 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:55:44 And that's specifically the type of reason many people disliked R6RS - it prescribed everything, leaving no leeway for experimentation or new features. 05:57:35 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 05:58:52 Actually, it would not. Goldberg gives the example of a zero finding function which works by probing its functional argument at various values. You do not want it to fall into the debugger any more than you want it to abort. You want it to return a safe value which cannot be mistaken for a good value. 05:59:45 And you want this to be fast, not involving throwing and catching an exception. 06:00:11 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:00:52 That's one special case example. I've written a lot of floating point intensive code and can tell you in all cases I would want it to tell me instantly when and where a NaN was generated. 06:02:45 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:04:27 It's specifically the kind of thing that's a pain to debug because the NaN spreads everywhere. 06:05:17 *jcowan* shrugs. 06:05:24 Okay, so the WG battles it out. 06:05:28 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 06:06:15 I have actually never used flonums in anger, except in languages like Perl and basic Basic that have nothing else. 06:06:20 JavaScript and Lua, too. 06:11:00 I've used them in Scheme, and alas in all my preferred implementations they're hopelessly slow, so I'm not ignoring the performance arguments. 06:11:14 Some day I will get back to Flopsy 06:11:33 And you will learn to use sigils and LOVE THEM. 06:17:00 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #scheme 06:19:53 -!- kilimanjaro 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[~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 09:10:13 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:13:52 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:14:37 alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has joined #scheme 09:17:53 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-49-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:25:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:37 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-49-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:29:06 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:39:02 aidalgol [~user@114-134-8-93.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 09:39:17 emporas [~emporas@85.75.211.74] has joined #scheme 09:39:47 What's the simplest way to get the list of numbers from n to m? 09:40:34 wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-15.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 09:42:23 (iota (+ 1 (- m n)) n) 09:45:21 What's wrong with this -> ((lambda (n m) (iota (+ 1 (- m n)) n)) 1 21) 09:45:55 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 09:47:20 Nothing 09:47:27 You'll need to load srfi-1, though 09:47:32 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-kxxbrqqclmkbvuie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:48:41 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:04:48 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:05:05 masm [~masm@bl15-129-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:09:11 Oh, OK. :P 10:10:20 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 10:11:13 -!- saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 10:11:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-5.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 10:14:01 Thanks, sjamaan! 10:15:33 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:18:45 -!- dzhus 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rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.2] 15:21:42 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #scheme 15:22:16 foof, `drop into a debugger with a restartable exception the moment a computation first results in a NaN': Restarting is very hard: no hardware that I know of supports it well, so you would almost certainly have to actually parse the instruction stream, figure out what was going on, and manually restart the machine at a particular instruction. But aside from that, you can do this in MIT Scheme. 15:28:32 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4d067cfc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:28:42 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbecd7c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 15:29:10 The toggle between trapping an exception and yielding NaN, infinity, subnormal, &c., for an exception is a hardware flag, so once you switch the flag, there's no overhead to either choice. 15:29:35 Indeed, I'm aware of that. 15:30:16 The debugger can't parse the instruction stream, but it can tell you what procedure the trapping instruction was in. 15:43:12 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 15:51:20 dzhus [~sphinx@93-80-213-224.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:51:38 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 15:54:44 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:17 masm [~masm@bl15-129-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 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17:31:30 -!- emporas [~emporas@85.75.211.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:38:38 aisa [~aisa@68.35.164.105] has joined #scheme 17:39:22 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-249-24.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 17:40:27 good evening everyone 17:59:41 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 18:00:25 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:01:19 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #scheme 18:09:36 Broa [~Broa@149.Red-83-50-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:17:20 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:17:58 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 18:18:07 saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has joined #scheme 18:19:38 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:21:40 HG` [~HG@p5DC053E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined 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[~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 22:09:40 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-44-140.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:16:52 -!- docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:17:39 -!- pranq [20253@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:18:10 subtextfuge: hey, what's going on: a little bit of an awkward pun, isn't it? 22:18:26 pranq [20253@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 22:18:29 He left. 22:18:37 Indeed 22:19:38 came across this "is scheme a lisp?" discussion, btw, in which edw proposes the controversial thesis: "Asking a CL advocate whether Scheme is a Lisp is like asking a plantation owner whether his slaves are human beings." 22:19:46 22:19:46 docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has joined #scheme 22:20:22 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:20:38 klutometis: I'd tend to agree. I'd want to consider scheme a lisp, but it defines its source as text. 22:21:21 Just like any other soulless language. 22:22:03 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has quit [Quit: Linkinus is updating...] 22:22:16 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-50-101.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 22:22:22 And then, there's some hints that the designers of scheme don't want it to be a lisp. They call it scheme instead of ablisp. 22:22:24 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 22:22:51 aslisp, I mean. Or perhaps it was just slisp? 22:23:22 saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has joined #scheme 22:23:51 pjb: when you say, "defines its source as text;" as opposed to what? 22:24:05 -!- githogori [~githogori@126.sub-75-208-201.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:06 pjb, the designers of scheme certainly thought of it as a lisp 22:24:12 also, i'm trying to find the relevant passage in, say, r5rs; but can't find anything save a couple of passing reference to "program text." 22:24:45 -!- cipher [~cipher@unaffiliated/cipher] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:25:19 klutometis, pjb is taking a literal interpretation of Section 7 to make a point, rather than to contribute anything useful to what is a pretty thoroughly useless discussion to begin with. 22:26:28 klutometis: in lisp, the source is a sexp, a data structure. The textual representation doesn't define the source of lisp program. 22:26:55 Riastradh: what would be the worth of making useful contributions to useless discussions? 22:27:09 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:27:14 Then the discussion might become useful. 22:27:29 In practice, I can ignore this section, and imagine that scheme is a lisp. But there's always this little doubt. 22:28:12 pjb, how do you feel about Pluto 22:29:46 ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:30:21 kilimanjaro: I don't know it. 22:30:40 It's a planet-like body of matter orbiting the Sun 22:31:00 There's also an OO logic programming language named pluto. 22:31:13 Ahem. kilimanjaro, it is not a planet, even if you may have a little doubt about what NASA says. 22:31:38 It might not be a planet indeed. It's orbit is too strange. 22:32:08 pjb, cite the CLHS? 22:32:55 samth: about what? 22:33:16 the "source" of lisp? 22:33:33 source code n. code representing objects suitable for evaluation (e.g., objects created by read, by macro expansion, or by compiler macro expansion). 22:34:13 Hmm... If it said `code-representing objects' or `objects representing code' then I might not have this little doubt in my head. 22:34:54 Yes, the glossary is not a formal definition, but rather, a dictionnary defining terms for use in casual, if technical, discussion about Common Lisp. 22:36:48 This let you say that both "(if (< a b) a (- b a))" and (if (< a b) a (- b a)) are source code, but the former is abusive, since the intend is to eval (if (< a b) a (- b a)), not "(if (< a b) a (- b a))". 22:36:48 "code n. 1. Trad. any representation of actions to be performed, whether conceptual or as an actual object, such as forms, lambda expressions, objects of type function, text in a source file, or instruction sequences in a compiled file." 22:37:18 so, your complaint is that Scheme doesn't have reader macros, and thus isn't a lisp 22:37:54 samth: you could say that, yes. 22:38:12 what is the significance of this objection 22:38:16 or, perhaps, if CLHS included a statement that a lisp program was a sequence of bytes that can be read by `read', CL would no longer be a lisp 22:38:27 to anyone but the most anal-retentive lisper or schemer, scheme is a lisp 22:38:35 The same as "asking a plantation owner whether his slaves are human beings." 22:38:47 pjb, that definition certainly excludes the original LISP 22:38:54 and is therefore ridiculous 22:39:40 and to those people who know enough to nitpick and make an objection like yours, whether or not scheme is a lisp is pretty much irrelevant 22:40:07 Well, there's a difference. The original lisp used a read and an eval function, all the time. The way scheme is defined, you could have a lexer and a parser, and no sexp and still run scheme code. 22:40:30 kilimanjaro: agreed. 22:40:34 If you want to make the discussion useful, perhaps you folks should explain why you care about the term `Lisp' and what your goal is in using the term `Lisp' to convey meaning. 22:41:15 IMO, what is lost by the textual representation is the homoiconicity. 22:41:25 pjb, it would be hard to define `eval' and `read' that way, as well as the macro expander 22:41:39 So, to me for a language to be a lisp, it has to be homoiconic. 22:41:54 pjb, you do realize that your opinion is at odds with the creators of lisp and scheme, right? 22:42:37 samth: I don't think the opionion of the creator of lisp and mine diverge. 22:43:00 also, do you realize that (excluding IO) all of these computations are simply functions that a turing machine could perform? 22:43:13 pjb, can you find somewhere that McCarthy says that Scheme is not a lisp? 22:43:21 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:43:51 samth: I don't think McCarthy spends his days saying this or that is not a lisp... 22:43:52 I operate under the assumption that the goal in using the term `Lisp' is twofold: from a pragmatic point of view, to express a relationship to individuals who do not know enough about Scheme in particular to have a clear understanding of what it is, and second (and perhaps most pertinent to this discussion), to satisfy that human urge to put balls in bins, objects in classes, etc 22:44:02 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 22:44:24 pjb, in that case your opinion seems unfounded 22:44:24 I'll give an example, and then leave since it's dinner time: `When I say ``a Lisp'', I mean a language with a simple external and internal representation for syntax, usually based on S-expressions, that supports metalinguistic abstraction and self-describing objects. Such languages are toolkits for building languages that can fit together in complex interactive systems like Emacs and Racket. Common Lisp, Emacs Lisp, and Scheme are examples.' 22:44:48 Also, I suspect scheme's authors would prefer scheme not to be a lisp, to avoid the bad opinion people generally have about lisp. 22:45:25 pjb, do you realize that the author of CLtL and the (co-)creator of Scheme are *the same person*? 22:45:52 Myself, I suggested a few years ago on cll, to rename Common Lisp to something else (I proposed L++ IIRC), to avoid it. 22:45:57 pjb, if I called up Gerry on the telephone right now, and asked him about that, that's not the opinion he would give. 22:46:24 and the other co-creator explicitly calls Scheme a Lisp in his widely-used textbook 22:46:51 Yes, they're rather inconsistent :-) 22:47:00 (But, as I said, it's dinner time. You can call him if you want, although he's probably left his office by now.) 22:47:07 Bon appetit! 22:47:25 pjb, they aren't inconsistent -- they're quite consistent. they just disagree with you 22:48:11 samth: it's a question of point of view. 22:49:51 What you want to do, what you do, and what external people perceive you're doing, are three things. 22:50:03 and your point of view seems to be at odds with that of the creators of scheme and with almost everyone in both communities 22:50:16 that's a tautology 22:50:31 So you're arguing that edw thesis is wrong. 22:50:52 what thesis? 22:51:06 <00:16:33> came across this "is scheme a lisp?" discussion, btw, in which edw proposes 22:51:06 the controversial thesis: "Asking a CL advocate whether Scheme is a Lisp is like asking a 22:51:07 plantation owner whether his slaves are human beings." <00:16:41> 22:51:07 22:51:48 yes, i think it's a silly thesis 22:52:03 if you ask most CL advocates whether Scheme is a Lisp, they'll say yes 22:52:15 and then proceed to advocate for CL 22:53:17 I tend to agree with Naggum. 22:53:37 "In the Algol family, the symbol table is a compiler construction. In the Lisp family, the symbol table is a run-time resource. In this sense, Scheme is a member of the Algol family and not a member of the Lisp family." http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3225240324630811@naggum.net.html 22:54:16 samth: if your goal is to advocate for CL, you don't spend your time arguing. 22:54:29 you seem to. 22:54:33 You'd even say MatzLisp is a lisp, and here come see my Common Lisp. 22:54:48 bremner: I'm on #scheme, I damper my advocacy here :-) 22:55:33 i (a) fail to see what naggum is talking about 22:55:42 samth: that's the problem. 22:55:47 A lot of people did. 22:55:54 (b) don't think his claims about lisp are true of LISP 1 22:56:05 and (c) don't think they're true of Scheme currently 22:56:11 Definitely. 22:56:21 for (b) I mean. 22:56:43 can you try to clarify what naggum means by "the symbol table" and "run-time resource"? 22:56:51 as for (c) I would have to read the newest standard. I'm waiting for the definite r5rs. 22:56:55 r7rs. 22:57:52 The point that a symbol used in a lisp source can be the same object as available at run-time. That for example, a macro can set a property to that symbol at compilation time, and that same property can be used at run-time. 22:58:04 Conspicuously, scheme doesn't have symbol plists. 22:58:20 also, it seems like you're (or naggum) making a point that solely applies to R5RS 22:58:31 In LISP 1, symbols where their plist! 22:58:34 were. 22:59:02 samth: Naggum died before r6rs, and as I mentionned, I'm skipping r6rs, and waiting for r7rs. 22:59:17 Erik Naggum is dead? 22:59:24 Yes, unfortunately. 22:59:24 pjb, i fail to see why the scheme community should let you define scheme 22:59:38 samth: you've got no choice! :-) 23:00:09 You don't even share a name, you're not family! 23:00:13 ah, there you are incorrect 23:00:48 EuLisp is more of a lisp than scheme or racket. 23:02:00 "-Pourquoi ne porte tu pas ton vrai nom? Quel est l'effroyable secret que tu caches? Un ogre, une sorcière, un bouilleur d'enfant!" 23:04:48 May I join the discussion? I've read Naggum's post. What does he mean when he talks about the symbol table as a runtime object? Why is this important to the point of calling something a lisp based on it? 23:05:14 masm [~masm@bl15-129-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 23:06:17 Broa: I said above, it's basically the sharing of the environments (or when they're not shared, at least, the possibility of using symbols to transmit easily data from the compilation environment to the run-time environment). 23:06:42 It's important because that allows to have an integrated REPL environment. 23:07:09 easily. 23:08:13 that is, an introspective and retrospective environment. You don't need to go thru complex external mechanisms, such as debugging info stored in object files, etc. 23:08:28 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 23:08:40 How would one transmit data between them in such a system? (I'm not familiar with Common Lisp) 23:09:04 Broa: as samth mentionned, it's all turing machines, so mathematically, it doesn't make a difference. It's more a question of doing it with a great economy of means. 23:09:05 Well at least not familiar enough. 23:10:33 (defsomething x :some parameter) could expand to: (eval-when (:execute :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (setf (getf 'x :some) 'parameter)) and then (defun get-some (x) (getf :some)) (get-some 'x) --> parameter 23:10:49 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:10:53 get-some could be used by other macros at compilation time, or by functions at run-time. 23:11:03 so if I understand correctly, smalltalk is a lisp, but scheme is not. 23:11:09 This would make scheme cringe, since it's highly unhygienic. 23:11:24 bremner: smalltalk is a friend of the family :-) 23:12:10 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:38 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:15:02 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:17:30 pjb: In your example, what would get-some actually do? get some compile-time information on a parameter? 23:22:16 ckrailo [~ckrailo@75.222.86.6] has joined #scheme 23:26:15 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@93-80-213-224.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:18 Fare [~Fare@206.83.64.178.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:23 -!- certainty [~david@matrix.d-coded.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:33:42 certainty [~david@matrix.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 23:33:50 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:36:43 -!- ysph [~user@75-143-82-29.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:57:22 martin_hex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:57:22 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:57:23 -!- martin_hex is now known as martinhex