00:07:42 Kleif [~Kleif@202.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:30:21 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:34:48 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:35:49 pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:36:12 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:32 Kleif_ [~Kleif@202.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:44:35 -!- Kleif [~Kleif@202.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:44:40 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:49:51 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:53:08 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 00:53:33 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:59:09 -!- ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:03 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:13:43 -!- osoleve is now known as MexToad 01:13:53 -!- MexToad is now known as osoleve 01:21:17 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:21:51 -!- Kleif_ is now known as Kleif 01:29:46 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-hhyvrdvedtfozggs] has joined #scheme 01:39:14 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:40:43 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:41:16 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 01:44:27 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-144-148.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:48:01 Harrold [~quassel@70.50.219.38] has joined #scheme 01:48:38 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-144-148.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:50:49 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:52:06 -!- Harrold [~quassel@70.50.219.38] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:52:49 -!- Kleif [~Kleif@202.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Kleif] 01:53:56 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:54:17 So, what is the right way to extend "finite?" and "nan?" to general complex numbers? 01:55:06 I'd suggest: (define (nan? n) (cond ((complex? n) (or (nan? (real-part n)) (nan? (imag-part n)))) ...)) 01:55:48 That seems uncontroversial. 01:55:59 What about finite? 01:56:34 That would be and instead of or, I guess. 01:56:58 You need to put the ellipsis before the COMPLEX? case of the COND. 01:57:02 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:57:39 Right (*^.^*) 01:58:15 *Riastradh* blinks. 01:58:16 -!- lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:45 What does that TIE bomber emoticon mean? 01:58:47 pjb: Hello Kitty emoticon? ;-) 01:58:57 Riastradh: Nice interpretation. :-) 01:59:10 Riastradh: it's a japanese emoticon. ^.^ represent the eyes and nose. (asiatic, obviously). 01:59:19 * * are the red cheeks. 02:00:18 ( ) are because we're on #scheme :-) 02:06:16 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f76841b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:06:26 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfddf1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 02:07:49 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:00 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-234.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:11:17 It doesn't have sense to have a number which is "partially" NaN. 2 + NaN => NaN, so 2i + NaN => NaN. 02:11:33 Riastradh, it looks to me like a Reo from Brinstar! 02:11:37 Complex infinities I'm not so sure about though. 02:12:02 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-hhyvrdvedtfozggs] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:02 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/session] has joined #scheme 02:12:02 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/session] has quit [Changing host] 02:12:02 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-cusfromluasjamlh] has joined #scheme 02:12:06 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:12:24 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 02:12:26 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:13:46 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 02:13:47 Straightforward compnum algorithms will generate things with a NaN in one half and a rational number in the other. 02:14:30 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-144-148.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:17:57 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-cusfromluasjamlh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:18:49 You need to normalize anyway, to simplify when complex numbers become real. 02:19:06 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:10 Well, that depends on ticket #117; if it passes, inexact/inexact complex numbers can't be real. 02:21:35 And +0.nan is by definition inexact. 02:24:12 I still think a complex number can't be partially NaN. 02:24:56 Well, what exactly do you mean by "be"? Do you mean it's not = to NaN? You're right. Do you mean it's eqv? to NaN? That seems strange. 02:25:06 s/NaN/+0.nan/g 02:26:27 No, I mean we can't have a single numeric value made up of components, one of which is NaN. 02:27:42 i_r_litestar [182e1463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.20.99] has joined #scheme 02:28:56 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:28:59 That makes an exception to the general rule of inexact complex contagion that doesn't seem to me worth having. 02:30:23 I think it _is_ worth having because a partial NaN creates worse complications. 02:30:32 (And you're already assuming #117 has passed in that argument.) 02:30:37 Yes, I am. 02:33:50 What's your view on #117? 02:35:18 What precedents are there regarding `partial NaN' or `partial infinity' complex values? 02:35:31 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-135-214.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:36:09 Partial infinity is uncontroversial. 02:36:46 masm [~masm@bl15-133-149.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 02:38:33 In C99, complex values can have infinite or NaN real and/or imaginary part. Annex G of C99 recommends, but does not require, that a `partial NaN' complex value be considered itself a NaN, and a `partial infinity' complex value be considered itself an infinity. 02:38:35 Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:38:35 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:38:35 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 02:39:01 The annex begins with the caveat `Although these specifications have been carefully designed, there is little existing practice to validate the design decisions.' 02:40:28 C99 is worth consulting because they thought about the problem, but is not a widely-supported standard. 02:45:20 MIT Scheme allows `partial NaN' and `partial infinity' complex values, but I don't think a lot of thought has been put into carefully handling infinities and NaNs in MIT Scheme (partially because, by default, you get errors rather than non-finite results, so that you can debug the program). 02:48:54 I just ran through my usual list of Schemes to see which ones agree that (imag-part (make-rectangular +nan.0 1.0)) ==> 1.0 02:49:06 The answer is, all of them that support complex numbers and the +nan.0 syntax. 02:51:32 That doesn't mean anything, I seriously doubt they put a lot of thought into that. 02:51:48 I think it would be reasonable for a system to have only one complex infinity. 02:52:22 The only two Scheme systems whose decisions about arithmetic I trust are MIT Scheme and Gambit. 02:53:42 There seems to be no obvious way to generate +nan.0 in MIT Scheme. 02:54:00 (flo:with-trapped-exceptions 0 (lambda () (flo:/ 0. 0.))), if you're using a recent enough MIT Scheme. 02:54:20 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-133-149.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:54:20 Or, if you're not on i386 or amd64, just use (flo:/ 0. 0.). 02:57:34 The above expression does not work in 7.7.90.+, which is what I have here 02:58:03 Good heavens! 9.0.1 has been out for over a year. 02:58:07 *jcowan* nods. 02:58:36 You can get a NaN on i386/amd64 in earlier versions, but it's trickier; you have to know what you're doing, and set up the bits right. 02:59:14 *jcowan* nods. 03:00:04 I'm stuck right now on Ubuntu karmic, so I'll have to build MIT from source. 03:01:41 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-kmdpjtuirqvkbojy] has joined #scheme 03:01:45 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-kmdpjtuirqvkbojy] has quit [Changing host] 03:01:45 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 03:02:14 Be sure to fetch the binary i386 or amd64 distribution from , rather than the bare source. I don't know whether what is in Ubuntu Karmic is capable of bootstrapping 9.0.1, and there's not much sense in bootstrapping it anyway. 03:02:31 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:02:43 (I would like some day to make the bootstrapping breakage go away, but that day will not be for a while.) 03:04:12 ...oh, sorry, I should add: I didn't implement control over floating-point exceptions until after 9.0.1. 03:04:25 I assume that is mit-scheme-9.0.1-i386.tar.gz? 03:04:53 Sounds right. 03:05:34 It's 41 megs 03:05:49 whereas mit-scheme-9.0.1.tar.gz is only 5.4M 03:06:01 DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has joined #scheme 03:06:34 Right. The latter is just the source with no compiled Scheme code or compiled Scheme debugging information. 03:09:48 *jcowan* nods. 03:09:51 Building the microcode... 03:10:59 I should add further: If you want to use the easy way to make a NaN or an infinity I gave you, 9.0.1 won't work -- you *will* have to build Scheme from Git. 03:11:49 (I asked Chris about releasing a new version a month or two ago, and he said he'd work on it, but it hasn't happened yet; I presume he's pretty busy over at the chocolate factory.) 03:12:13 Now you tell me. 03:12:27 Well, it's worth having 9.0.1, I suppose. 03:13:27 Sorry, I guess `I didn't implement control over floating-point exceptions until after 9.0.1' wasn't clear enough. 03:13:48 Oh, I had already started the process before you said that. 03:13:53 But it's true I misread it. 03:14:32 Not that building from Git is difficult: git clone git://git.savannah.gnu.org/mit-scheme.git && cd mit-scheme/src && ./Setup.sh && ./configure && make, and then just run `./microcode/scheme --library lib' or `./microcode/scheme --library lib --edwin --edit' to fire it up. 03:15:23 How much longer does that take than installing the binary? 03:16:12 *jcowan* installs git first 03:16:38 Only the git package does not contain git 03:16:55 Depends on your machine. On my ancient Acer laptop, it takes about half an hour to build, I think. On my fancy Xeon for testing it under GNU/Linux, it takes about five minutes. 03:17:23 jcowan: try "git-core" 03:17:34 Note that you almost certainly will need 9.0.1 in order to build it from Git. 03:17:38 newer versions of Ubuntu have finally, sensibly, put git in a package named git 03:19:47 -!- pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:20:18 I'm off to bed now. 03:22:40 Good night! 03:26:13 -!- i_r_litestar [182e1463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.20.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:33:27 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@c-67-167-96-135.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ttfn] 03:39:38 -!- ijp [~user@host109-154-210-22.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:00:13 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 04:02:26 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:06:15 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:29 Anyhow, foof, after jumping through the above hoops, MIT allows you to take imag-part of a nan/inexact compnum, just like all the rest. 04:13:36 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:16:59 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:22:32 q[k]*y - q[k+1]*y = r[k+1] - r[k] 04:22:36 wrong channel, sorry 04:27:27 i figured out what the last issue is in my shunting-yard implementation! 04:27:33 but not how to fix it. 04:27:34 :( 04:30:14 wait! 04:30:20 i might have just figured it out 04:30:21 :3 04:30:51 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:33:17 pahaha! i did it! 04:33:18 :D 04:33:21 glad to have helped 04:33:28 did unit tests help any? 04:33:54 not in this case, but i definitely see the value in them 04:34:05 and they very much so helped in fixing (last lst) 04:34:15 sure 04:34:15 thanks so much, offby1 04:34:49 there's this whole quasi-religion about test-driven development, or test-first, or whatever. I haven't _quite_ drunk all the Kool-Ade, but I'm partly there 04:35:03 *osoleve* wants kool-ade 04:40:34 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 04:42:17 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Client Quit] 04:43:38 Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:43:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:43:39 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 05:07:22 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 05:09:26 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:10:54 Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:10:54 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@97-83-97-117.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:10:54 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 05:10:57 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has 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[~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:57 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-161-153.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:37 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 09:47:31 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-jfzehbeuxgrhonww] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:13:27 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 10:15:12 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 10:21:08 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:55 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 10:22:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-226.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 10:26:40 pingi [~pingi@wlan-36-248.wlan.uni-wuppertal.de] has joined #scheme 10:27:23 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:55 Hello! Just one question which I failed to find out google-wise: What is the scheme equivalent of CL's "boundp"? (Testing if a symbol is bound) 10:28:25 alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has joined #scheme 10:29:00 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:37:23 -!- AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:38:04 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 10:38:30 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:42:26 -!- AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:19 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 10:47:45 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:49:23 -!- AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:52:25 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 10:53:13 hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:54:15 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 10:55:51 pingi: 1- notice that cl:boundp doesn't "work" on lexical variables, only on special variable. 10:55:59 pingi: 2- there are no special variables in scheme. 10:56:07 pingi: therefore, no equivalent in scheme. 10:56:12 hm. 10:56:26 thanks. 10:56:40 pingi: now, there are libraries providing a kind of special variables, these libraries might provide a function similar to boundp. 10:57:39 See for example SRFI-39. 10:57:47 other keywords: dynamic variables, fluid variables. 10:57:52 most schemes allow low level environment lookup though 10:58:05 so you can look up a symbol and see if it exists 10:59:42 ok, thank you. i think i should live without it if it is not there by default, i just wanted to make a skript more readable / proof wrt. changes. 11:01:29 i wanted to check wether a limit variable is set. i think i could set it to 'infinity and test for that. 11:02:29 Just start your program or script with (define limit #f) ; or some other value. 11:03:30 yep. #f is probably even better technically. 11:05:41 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:10:42 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #scheme 11:10:48 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 11:14:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-226.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:30:52 Kleif [~Kleif@202.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:48:40 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 11:56:42 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 11:57:10 pingi: fantastic adverb, btw: "google-wise;" i'm not sure what the alternative would have been: "googly?" sounds more like an adjective. 11:59:44 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-106-167.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has 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[Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:16 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 14:58:17 wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-15.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 14:59:16 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:05:48 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #scheme 15:11:23 pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 15:11:23 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 15:11:23 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:12:36 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:23 furrykef [furrykef@ip68-12-20-195.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 15:13:53 If I made a proposal for "Scheme without parens", will I be flayed alive? :) 15:14:15 (I don't propose removing the parens entirely, but rather allowing indentation in lieu of parens *in addition to* parens) 15:15:20 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 15:15:20 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 15:15:20 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:15:39 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:16:37 furrykef, the forced indentation is the root of all evil. 15:16:52 furrykef, srfi-49? 15:17:13 taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD933A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:18:41 gravicappa - ah. Pretty much what I came up with, then. 15:19:49 I was thinking that, by using conversion scripts, people who hate the idea can work seamlessly alongside people who love it 15:20:56 Since I think you'd be able to losslessly convert between the two syntaxes without any problems. 15:23:11 furrykef, there are a number of Emacs modes that dim the parentheses or obscure them altogether, and you can use paredit to avoid typing half of them if you like. 15:24:11 Riastradh - yeah, but what if you don't like Emacs? :) 15:25:25 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 15:28:47 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-144-148.vinet.ba] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:21 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has joined #scheme 15:29:46 then use an editor that at least can match parens. 15:30:29 Then you have a more important problem to solve, furrykef. 15:31:01 ah well. 15:31:10 Guess my idea won't be getting anywhere, then. :) 15:32:42 femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 15:32:49 furrykef: wanting to "remove parens", or to adopt an algol-like syntax is a newbie trait. You may have fun implementing such a syntax. But originally lisp had an algol-like syntax (called M-expressions), S-expressions being only an internal data representation. There's a **STRONG** reason why M-expressions have been dropped in favor of S-expression. If you still feel the need for something else than S-expressions, it means that you 15:32:49 are not using lisp to it's fullest. 15:33:02 erjiang [~erjiang@c-67-167-96-135.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:33:08 erjiang_ [~erjiang@c-67-167-96-135.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:33:14 -!- erjiang_ [~erjiang@c-67-167-96-135.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:15 Once can write C or Fortran in scheme... 15:33:19 a/Once/One/ 15:33:53 pjb - that's not a valid comparison. M-expressions differ a lot more from S-expressions than I-expressions do. 15:34:02 Also, the entire point of the concept is to not scare off the newbies. 15:34:15 Lisp is different. 15:35:01 It's better to scare newbies and have them learn the new language, than trying to deceive them letting think lisp is just like C. 15:35:33 I dunno if it'd really cause them to think differently... 15:35:52 i heard the usage of s-expressions for code started as kind of a hack because m-expressions weren't "done" yet. then they realized how awesome it is :P 15:36:11 taylanub: that is correct. 15:36:53 Well yeah. M-expressions obscure what's going on. 15:37:00 I-expressions don't 15:37:38 An I-expression *is* an S-expression, it just uses indent as open-paren and unindent as close-paren :) 15:38:34 furrykef: ((a b) (c d)) 15:38:57 The problem is that spaces are invisible. 15:39:32 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-15.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:39:58 You'd still be able to use parens when you want more than one S-expression on a line, if that's what you're saying 15:40:06 They're also suppressed by various protocols, including HTML, and lines can be cut, or join, by various protocols, including HTML. 15:40:33 Well, that wouldn't be more of a problem for Scheme than it would for Python, would it? 15:41:21 furrykef: no. To represent the above sexp, you'd have to write: " a\n b\n \n c\n d\n" and this would look just like (a b c d) because spaces are invisible. 15:41:34 furrykef: yes, Python is fucked up. 15:42:07 s/invisible/collapsed/ 15:42:18 pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 15:42:18 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 15:42:18 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:43:02 furrykef: I would argue that the parentheses based s-expression syntax is a cultural trait of Lisp, thus removing them turns your language into something not Lisp. 15:43:31 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:43:55 and it's a matter of taste whether you like using parens or significant whitespace 15:44:04 It's not cultural, it's fundamental. 15:44:13 pjb - no point going there, I'm a Pythonista. (Which I guess is probably obvious enough from my proposal in the first place...) 15:44:16 pjb: only from the Lisper's point of view :-) 15:44:26 It's what allows you to write macros, without having to know the arity of the operators. 15:44:59 srfi-49 also allows macros, no? 15:45:42 furrykef: as I said, as a newbie you're entitled, and I'd even encourage you to do things like that. What I'm saying is that once you've become proficient in lisp (eg. by writting such a syntax for lisp), you'll realise that you don't want to use it, and that you want to write s-exps for lisp sources. 15:46:12 or you find that you want to you s-exps for everything else too 15:46:13 DerGuteMoritz: but as soon as you remove the homoiconicity, macro writing becomes much more difficult. 15:46:52 pjb: now that's a different matter 15:46:57 pjb - well, it's obviously never gonna catch on anyway. I probably might as well stop debating the point now... 15:47:03 And indeed, for everything else, hence the multitude of packages providing sexp syntax for the other languages. 15:48:09 furrykef: you may search on news://comp.lang.lisp, the subject have been approached a few times (with the same reaction as mine basically), but you might find some technical hints on how to do it, at least in Common Lisp. (In Common Lisp, it's trivial, using a reader macro. 15:48:12 ) 15:49:15 furrykef: it might even catch on but most probably not with Lispers :-) 15:50:12 AtnNn_ [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:51:17 -!- AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 15:51:34 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 15:52:12 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:55:17 -!- AtnNn_ [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:23 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:58:59 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:59:44 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 15:59:59 -!- AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:02 -!- f8l [~f8l@87-205-239-131.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:00:38 nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:07:40 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:10:32 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:11:27 -!- LN^^ is now known as LN^off 16:12:15 -!- furrykef [furrykef@ip68-12-20-195.ok.ok.cox.net] has left #scheme 16:12:55 elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:23:24 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:24:51 f8l [~f8l@87-205-239-131.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #scheme 16:34:05 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@c-67-167-96-135.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:34:10 -!- hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:47:51 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:48:06 lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 16:48:38 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:49:57 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-163-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 16:52:58 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:53:10 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has joined #scheme 16:55:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:57:50 -!- LN^off is now known as LN^^ 16:59:32 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 17:00:30 coi 17:02:01 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:04:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:06:22 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:07:30 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:47 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:10:29 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:13:59 jcowan_ [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 17:14:49 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:14:57 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 17:15:01 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:17:32 Hahahaha, I see the SRFI 49 debate came up again. :-P 17:18:54 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:19:39 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:19:43 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 17:22:01 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:24:04 wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-15.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:24:29 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-48-174.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:26:17 (about 2 weeks too early?) 17:30:33 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:32:42 erjiang [~erjiang@c-67-167-96-135.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:33:27 -!- DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:34 pdlogan1 [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 17:35:45 cky: funny thing is, i do something similar when pseudocoding; why anyone would want to formalize that is bizarre, though. 17:36:12 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-57-198.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 17:38:43 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:57 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:16 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:50:37 -!- qebab [~robb@jaguar.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:51:00 qebab [~robb@jaguar.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #scheme 18:08:50 ysph [~user@75-143-85-15.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:10:17 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:11:20 elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 18:29:43 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #scheme 18:30:13 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:31:33 elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 18:33:14 rpg [~rpg@68-244-149-215.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 18:43:13 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:35 -!- Kleif [~Kleif@202.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:46:20 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:47 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-163-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:49:59 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:54:08 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:55:20 elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 18:58:10 -!- AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: foobar] 19:01:35 nitm [~nitm@77.126.243.192] has joined #scheme 19:03:38 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:03:52 hi, i'm trying to do something like (if (good x) x) but x is a lambda evaluating to a lambda or something ( :) will this in practice evaluate twice? 19:04:32 nitm: do you mean the value of x is a lambda evaluating to a lambda? 19:04:37 yes 19:05:12 then unless this function is called by good, it's not called, in any case, it's not called by returning it when good returns true. 19:05:20 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:05:39 ah! thanks :) 19:05:45 functions are not called magically, you have to call them explicitely to have them called. 19:06:10 remember, functions are first class objects. That means they behave just like numbers or strings. 19:06:43 but what happens if x itself a call to a function? 19:07:19 i'd like to give good the result of a call, can i perhaps call it before and store it? 19:07:23 if you write (if (good (f)) (f)) then the function f will be called once or twice, depending on the result of (good (f)). 19:07:45 ah that's so much closer to my case ^^* 19:08:02 (let ((result (f))) (if (good result) result)) 19:08:20 oh i was wondering about the let syntax, thank you :) 19:08:24 so f is called only once. 19:08:43 (a define on the other hand would still call it twice, being evaluated to the call, right? ^^*) 19:09:11 nitm: I would avoid non-toplevel define. I prefer let or letrec. 19:09:55 ok, thanks :) 19:10:32 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:14:27 -!- rpg [~rpg@68-244-149-215.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:52 elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 19:21:11 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:23:08 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:05 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:38:46 ijp [~user@host109-154-211-216.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:43:54 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:45:57 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:50:25 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:50:54 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:51:11 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 19:52:33 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:52:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:57:59 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:58:17 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:00:01 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:00:18 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:01:12 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 20:04:41 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:11:11 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 20:25:03 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-15.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:28:44 pothos_ [~pothos@111-240-164-94.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:30:31 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-171-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:30:43 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 20:44:13 guys, is it possible to say in the middle of (cond ((...)...) (let ... (cond ? 20:44:51 (since i want it to only be evaluated if the first one fails and it's result be used both as the test case for the cond and it's return value ^^* 20:46:13 nitm: is that a question about the syntax of cond, or something else 20:46:15 ? 20:47:00 yes 20:47:10 whether it's possible to used let inbetween the conditions 20:48:01 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 20:49:20 i'm interesting in something like (cond ((#f) 'nope) (let ((x (g))) ((zero? x) x))) 20:50:08 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:50:44 well, each form has to be (test-expr body) 20:50:56 also #f is not a function 20:51:57 oh right i keep changing things :) 20:52:14 -!- evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:52:32 oh, maybe I'm wrong. apparently you can just have (test-expr) as a cond form; dunno how standard this is. 20:52:33 so if i want to do something between the evaluation of the first cond and the 2nd one like that let i have to quit the cond do it and start a new one? 20:52:42 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 20:52:42 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 20:52:42 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:53:05 elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:53:14 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD933A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #scheme 20:53:19 i'm sorry it looks kinda messy i'll try to rephrase: 20:53:22 you can do the let in the second cond form 20:53:46 evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:53:46 ah yes but i need the result of the calculation inside the condition ^^* 20:53:51 for ex: 20:54:23 -!- meanfish [~bill@76.73.221.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:54:55 (cond ((zero? n) 0) *here i'd like to evaluate (f a b c) and if the result is negative return -1* ((= n 2) ...)) 20:55:14 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:55:17 oh sorry if the result is negative i'd like to return the value of the evaluation :) 20:55:28 (i got confused trying to make sense of it ^^*) 20:56:40 why don't you just do an if with the let in the else branch? 20:56:45 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:57:06 or the equivalent with cond 20:57:43 (if (zero? n) 0 (let ...)) 20:58:58 yeah i think i'll just do it, i was wondering if there's something simple to be done (since it's a couple of nested ifs and 2 of these lets) 20:59:04 ok, thanks! 21:02:00 tupi__ [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 21:03:53 -!- evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:04:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:07:26 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:10:15 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:10:51 elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 21:11:46 bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:12:31 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:48 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 21:12:49 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-170-60.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:13:14 tarpsocks [~tarpsocks@unaffiliated/tarpsocks] has joined #scheme 21:13:36 so are pairs the only compound datatype? 21:13:45 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-170-60.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:23:34 oh it ended up pretty readable afterall... thanks guys and good night! 21:24:07 -!- nitm [~nitm@77.126.243.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:51 tarpsocks: There are vectors and strings, and SRFI-9 records are well supported 21:26:55 -!- pdlogan1 [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 21:36:32 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:41 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:21 One could consider complex a compound datatype too, even if immutable. 21:51:54 Kleif [~Kleif@202.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:55:41 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:58:16 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:58:23 elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 21:59:10 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 22:07:23 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:07:53 alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has joined #scheme 22:10:23 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:20 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:16:52 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 22:16:57 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:18:39 elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 22:19:38 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:41 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:29:54 sloyd pasted "cond with let" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120610 22:37:00 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:40:42 evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:49:29 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:28 -!- lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:46 lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 22:56:12 -!- f8l [~f8l@87-205-239-131.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 22:58:36 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:58 klutometis: My understanding of SRFI 49 is that it's a strawman proposal. So whenever someone says, "let's do indentation-sensitive s-exprs!", you just point them to SRFI 49, and say that it's old hat. 23:01:06 And that if it wanted to catch on, it'd have done so already. 23:01:46 I didn't pay attention, but I seem to recall hearing from someone who did that SRFI 49 has serious technical flaws, general concept aside. 23:03:20 That wouldn't surprise me. It's hardly...field-tested. 23:08:58 Senjai [~richard@unaffiliated/senjai] has joined #scheme 23:09:57 Does anyone know about accumulators? 23:11:40 Senjai: Depends on what you mean by an accumulator. 23:12:43 Sure, they're the 36-bit places where you store temporary data and accumulate intermediate values on the PDP-10; they can be encoded in the instruction bits or they can be addressed by the first sixteen words of memory. 23:14:08 Or, in modern-day terms, it's called RAX, and is 64-bit wide. 23:16:32 Pff. That's a cheesy imitation of the 10's accumulators. You can't take its address in memory. You can't blt to or from it. You can't do arbitrary binary binary operations on it in a single instruction. You can't store a whole cons inside it -- it's not twice the address space size. 23:17:28 Well played. :-) 23:17:47 Did you have a question, Senjai? 23:18:12 uhh 23:18:15 Hehe 23:18:15 cky one sec 23:18:45 So now the restricted address space of the '10 is supposed to be one of its advantages? 23:18:54 cky http://codepad.org/Q4pTyRet 23:19:07 Note, I am using Racket. 23:19:12 No, jcowan -- it's the relation between the address space size and the word size. 23:19:25 128-bit registers would be a tad expensive. 23:20:05 I'm sure we'll get them eventually, since an expansion of virtual memory to 2^128 seems comfortably remote, if ever to happen at all. 23:20:22 I bet the CPU that you are using right now to type to IRC already has dozens of 128-bit registers inside it, possibly even 256-bit registers. 23:22:34 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 23:22:47 Senjai: Okay. That's a pretty usual approach to do a tail-recursive reverse. 23:22:51 Senjai: What's your question? 23:23:40 I think my CPU has 64-bit registers (and a 32-bit address space), but I haven't checked recently; it may have 128-bit registers too, though probably not 256-bit ones. Of course, this CPU is almost a decade old now. 23:24:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:19 We're going to eventuall have to develop a web crawler using an accumulator 23:25:24 its called tail recursion? 23:26:12 Senjai: Tail recursion is where you recurse in "tail positions"---usually at the end of your function. 23:27:50 cky, I don't understand .. what is the difference between using an accumulator and not using one, besides performance concerns 23:28:23 Looks like mine has eight 128-bit registers and no 256-bit registers. 23:29:26 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:32:12 Senjai: Using an "accumulator" is the only way you can sanely implement a tail-recursive version of that function. 23:32:29 Senjai: Without it, you'd normally have to make it non-tail-recursive. 23:35:06 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38:17 elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:41:17 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 23:42:07 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:43:26 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:11 -!- ysph [~user@75-143-85-15.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:45:17 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 23:46:11 -!- lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:56 -!- elderman [~elderman@AMarseille-152-1-34-246.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:56:26 -!- Senjai [~richard@unaffiliated/senjai] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:59:07 -!- tupi__ [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving]