00:00:24 shortness and contained procedures/functions usually help in any langauge 00:09:21 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 00:13:15 -!- aisa [~aisa@209.234.140.58] has quit [Quit: aisa] 00:15:16 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23:21 -!- ysph [~user@75-143-85-15.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:25:38 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 00:43:55 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.133.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:48:33 masm [~masm@bl15-66-252.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 00:52:30 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@75-164-189-139.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 00:52:58 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-66-252.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:55:58 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 01:01:02 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 01:03:26 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.157.83] has joined #scheme 01:05:31 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:09:50 -!- user18 [~user@p5B2A9E8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:09:54 user17 [~user@p5B2A9E8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 01:13:08 masm [~masm@bl15-66-252.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 01:17:05 schmir [~schmir@p54A900F0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 01:21:22 -!- zanes [~zane@wall.tripitinc.com] has quit [Quit: zanes] 01:23:48 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A900F0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:13 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-ruldbanabyrllwbe] has joined #scheme 01:35:20 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:47 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-ruldbanabyrllwbe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:58 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-165-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:14 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:00:06 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:05:03 copumpkin [~pumpkin@rrcs-184-75-32-88.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:05:03 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@rrcs-184-75-32-88.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:05:03 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 02:07:05 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:11:34 zanes [~zane@wall.tripitinc.com] has joined #scheme 02:15:43 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:19:38 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-ahnwlgrilqkjavbw] has joined #scheme 02:20:23 -!- tupi_ [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:26:17 bremner: Thanks for the racket packaging updates! I'm building one now. :-) 02:27:32 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-ahnwlgrilqkjavbw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35:11 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:37:06 -!- tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-43511b93.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:45:33 phao [phao@189.107.139.71] has joined #scheme 02:45:58 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-pjvywwguoyfygddb] has joined #scheme 02:45:59 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-pjvywwguoyfygddb] has quit [Changing host] 02:45:59 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 02:47:29 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:49:28 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 02:50:29 -!- ijp [~Ian@host109-154-213-2.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:55:21 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 03:09:30 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 03:13:02 cky: I think I have a version of libgc in /usr/local that I forgot about. 03:13:24 it's gc-7.1 03:14:24 -!- felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:54 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 16:20:54 16:20:54 -!- names: ccl-logbot MrFahrenheit bttf rasterbar kilimanjaro bweaver Caleb-- carleastlund dfkjjkfd_ femtoo aisa ray tronador_ langmartin wingo-pi Ruinpeople evhan rins rageous Traubert acarrico leppie Agari tupi jesusito masm gravicappa drdo Nshag preflex MichaelRaskin nilg` zbrown felipe pothos user18 kanru HG` ski timj_ clog myu2 stamourv nome antoszka futilius rapacity emporas mathk pygospa augiedoggie pattern ASau Hal9k interglacial mmc neilcj Euthydemus` 16:20:54 -!- names: yorick Adamant cpach Jafet Modius githogori snorble pr Nisstyre rdd jeff___ jimrees_ offby1 mario-goulart tonyg weinholt eut MapMan alaricsp arbscht stepnem pchrist borism kniu Khisanth minsa cataska Axioplase dRbiG yosafbridge joast foof Adrinael yx araujo timchen1a ineiros_ certaint1 Guest57257 twem2_ inimino zbigniew gabot ada2358_ mornfall cmatei jeapostrophe sjamaan Kovensky bremner cky dfeuer Fill eno elf DerGuteMoritz fds rudybot pantsd churib 16:20:54 -!- names: rrm3 Intensity vk0_ rmrfchik tizoc dsmith Leonidas em derrida zilt martinhex Zol aoh nowhereman gnomon alexgordon Obfuscate peddie ecraven sloyd elly rotty Tasser qsun _p4bl0 snarkyboojum danking simontwo samth ve qebab amoe Pepe_ metasyntax XTL Zahl askhader C-Keen levi tessier incubot bzzbzz pjb ozzloy `micro ToxicFrog 16:20:58 Again, I just can't really conceptualize where the computation is supposed to be done on this. 16:21:03 How many "if"s were closed prematurely? 16:21:09 (hint, hint) 16:21:54 This autoindent business is incredible. 16:22:04 I'm not confident I will understand this yet, but this might help. 16:22:15 I strongly suggest you move kindasine-helper to the top level, since it's the main workhorse, and add explicit tests for it. Things like (equal? (kindasine-helper 0 0 0) 178), but replace 178 with the right answer. 16:22:49 At least it's executing now. 16:22:50 Give it the smallest inputs you can, and see where it first goes wrong. 16:23:02 -!- twem2_ is now known as twem2 16:23:08 I'll give that a shot. I'm worried that I won't finish this project in time. 16:23:14 Ah, yeah, I imagine it was recurring infinitely before. :) 16:23:24 Indeed. 16:23:25 When is it due? Noon today or some such? 16:23:38 2:30 central. 16:23:58 This one I thought would be really easy, the next one I can't even wrap my head around. 16:24:15 I'm supposed to print large ascii art. 16:24:45 Living in a parenthetical world boggles the mind. 16:25:49 The parentheses, for the most part, are not the interesting part. I strongly recommend writing comments with the contracts (a.k.a.) type of each function, a sentence or two describing the relationship the function's output has with its inputs, and a few basic tests for each function -- enough to make sure every line of code inside it gives the right answer for at least one set of inputs. 16:26:15 Doing that alone, in any language, will make it much, much clearer what is going on. 16:26:30 Well, I think aside from that, is that we're asked to use this template, and I find it really difficult to simply look at a template and start hacking away at it. 16:27:31 I completely agree. Templates are not helpful. The stuff I just asked you to write? Write all of it, BEFORE you even copy/paste the template. The type, the purpose, and basic examples of a function give you a much better idea of what to write than skeleton code. 16:27:57 (That's like 50% true, there are some kinds of templates that are helpful, but I'm not sure you have that kind, and anyway it still comes after those other steps in my opinion). 16:28:20 -!- Traubert [~sam@crepidotus.fi] has left #scheme 16:28:33 I appreciate your help. What is it that you do, carleastlund? 16:28:37 If you need more help in this vein, http://www.htdp.org/ has an online textbook that I'm taking all of these ideas from. Working through examples in the early chapters of that book is often recommended as preparation for SICP. 16:29:01 I am a PhD student at Northeastern University, working with the group that develops Racket. I've been a teaching assistant for Scheme-based stuff many times, so this is old hat for me. :) 16:29:16 Haha. 16:30:27 I'm taking a hard look at acquiring a computer science minor, but Scheme really accelerates the feeling of this not being for me. 16:31:09 Stick with it. Try out the stuff I pointed you to. It may turn you right back around toward CS. HTDP is designed to take the mystery out of the kinds of questions you had: "where is the computation going on", etc. 16:32:34 What year are you in school, and what's your major, out of curiosity? 16:33:11 Based on Credits, I would be a senior, but I'm rather non-traditional due to military obligations. 16:33:43 I've only declared a major in linguistics last semester while this is a Freshman CSci course. 16:33:52 pdlogan [~patrick@75-164-189-139.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:34:27 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:34:32 I'm currently enrolled in a computational linguistics class which utilizes Python, but we do very little in the way of actually programming, only invoking commands from an IDLE session in order to parse texts. 16:35:02 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 16:35:10 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 16:35:12 Well, if you're at a school that teaches the intro stuff in Scheme, as mysterious as it may seem now, I promise you that means you're getting a *really* good start on things, in my opinion. Scheme gets a lot of buzzword nonsense out of the way and gets right to the heart of the matter. It means you skip to the hard part, in some sense, but the hard part's the part worth learning. 16:35:56 -!- askhader [~askhader@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:36:04 askhader [~askhader@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 16:36:05 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:36:24 That's precisely what the TA has intimated to me. He suggested that this course is designed as a weed-out course, and deals with some topics that may not be relevant to a Csci major until their Sophmore or Junior year. 16:36:38 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:52 The next course in this path is java-based if I'm not mistaken. 16:36:54 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:37:06 That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that they give you good stuff in the first year, waste your time for the second, and get back to the important stuff later. 16:37:34 Java-based can be fine, if they teach you important matters of OO design. If they're just "teaching you Java", they're wasting your time. 16:37:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-118.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:38:48 The reason I say teaching with Scheme is good is not because of Scheme per se -- it's that curricula based on Scheme tend to focus on how computation works, while those in many other languages focus on just the language itself. If someone wrote SICP in Java it'd be just as valuable. 16:39:12 Whereas if someone wrote a "coping with parentheses in Scheme" book, it'd be a waste of time. 16:39:21 Anyway, I have to run now, good luck on your project! 16:39:40 (the above: well, a waste of time as a full course, anyway) 16:39:48 Thanks again. 16:39:53 I think I'm on my way on this one. 16:39:59 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:47:23 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:54 hkr [~hkr@77.63.34.119] has joined #scheme 16:48:22 copumpkin [~pumpkin@160.79.2.219] has joined #scheme 16:48:22 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@160.79.2.219] has quit [Changing host] 16:48:22 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 16:52:53 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:15 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:57:15 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:57:15 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 16:58:23 bearded_oneder [~bearded_o@cpe-075-176-115-050.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:59:23 IMO this guy is a good theory lecturer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY&playnext=1&list=PLE18841CABEA24090 16:59:23 http://tinyurl.com/4m6cx84 17:01:53 bearded_oneder: both sicp authors are great. 17:03:34 oh, is this one of the authors? 17:05:51 Yes. 17:06:27 He's Abelson. 17:06:37 00:00:40 17:08:29 -!- hkr [~hkr@77.63.34.119] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:09:41 tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-43511b93.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 17:10:14 heh, i was so mesmerized by his understated yet inexplicably engrossing presentation, that i didn't even notice that (obviously). 17:11:55 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:12:16 -!- incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:34 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfdba5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:12:44 incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 17:13:02 ah, android programming in Kawa Scheme *is* so much nicer than in Java :) 17:14:21 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfd9f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 17:16:42 -!- zbrown [~zbrown@rufius.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:16:42 zbrown [~zbrown@unaffiliated/zbrown] has joined #scheme 17:19:19 ecraven: nice! would be fun to try that some time 17:19:44 andares [~andares@weldorm-pat.netcom.duke.edu] has joined #scheme 17:19:53 as soon as i finish this program, i'll write up a short tutorial of my experiences 17:20:09 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:20:24 What is the origin of the "ref" term we have in `list-ref', `vector-ref' etc. Because of "reference"? 17:20:24 ecraven: that's great. do you have a blog or something? 17:21:39 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has left #scheme 17:23:23 nope :) per bothner (the author of kawa scheme) has one, where he also writes about android, i'll try to get him to link to my account, when i write it 17:24:49 mario-goulart: i think so 17:25:15 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 17:26:01 mmc1 [~michal@85.90.76.66] has joined #scheme 17:26:21 ecraven: ah. don't forget to ping #scheme :) 17:26:27 :) will do 17:26:40 might take a few more days, just starting on the persistence part.. 17:27:11 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:27:45 Thanks, wingo-pi 17:29:31 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:30:28 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 17:32:42 -!- mmc1 [~michal@85.90.76.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:32:59 mmc1 [~michal@85.90.76.66] has joined #scheme 17:40:35 -!- mmc1 [~michal@85.90.76.66] has 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seconds] 21:55:05 <3 Scheme 21:57:24 Me too, but what prompted that? 21:57:49 please justify everything you do or say 21:58:35 http://cr.yp.to/cdb/cdb.txt <-- fully justified 22:00:25 I wrote a little memoisatino function, that takes another function and creates a table of previously computed results (As described by Sussman and Abelson) 22:00:51 And it's just so neat, the way it packages everything up. :-P 22:01:02 Memoisation* 22:01:13 fds: I bet that means you can write a @memoise decorator in Python. ;-) 22:02:18 Possibly, but it's been so long since I've written anything in Python I shouldn't know where to start. 22:02:34 And I doubt I'll write any Python again without being paid for it! :-P 22:02:56 I'll do it in my Copious Free Time: 1. just for the lulz, and 2. as a motivator for doing some kind of decorator thingy in Scheme. 22:05:06 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:06 -!- mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:08:52 i honestly wonder how people can work with a language that cannot be indented automatically. how can you paste code into python? how can you refactor? 22:09:10 ecraven: You _can_ indent Python code automatically. 22:09:17 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-66-252.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:09:18 The indenter keeps track of the nesting level of each line. 22:09:41 It's no different from doing refactoring of a curly-bracketed language. 22:10:14 if foo: x = 2; print "ok" ;; should print be in the if block or not? 22:10:26 how would an automatic indenter know? 22:11:03 According to the Python REPL, the print is within the if. 22:11:14 ok but i wanted it outside the if. who failed? 22:11:20 You. 22:11:30 if (foo){ x = 2; } printf("ok"); 22:11:35 You can't use a one-liner for that kind of stuff in Python. 22:12:02 Python isn't really designed for one-liners, as far as I know. 22:12:02 ffff 22:12:03 if foo: 22:12:04 x = 2 22:12:07 print "ok" 22:12:11 pretend i copy/pasted that from a webpage 22:12:17 so the spacing gets messed up. now what 22:12:31 Well, there's three scenarios: 22:12:45 1. two spaces in front of "print". Well, that's obvious. 22:12:51 2. no spaces in front of "print". Again, obvious. 22:13:05 3. one space in front of "print". That's a syntax error (and will be detected by Python). 22:13:11 you can't go from messed up spacing to correct code in python 22:13:13 thats the point 22:13:21 in C and most other languages, you can 22:13:21 Sure. 22:15:13 -!- Ruinpeople [~nnscript@unaffiliated/ruinpeople] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 22:17:53 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 22:22:29 -!- rins [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:48 yapsol2 [yapsol@187.116.58.146] has joined #scheme 22:28:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:32:18 -!- yapsol [yapsol@187.91.19.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:32:45 jesusito [~user@91.pool85-49-229.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 22:37:38 bttf [~docBrown@c-68-59-124-155.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:37:56 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfd9f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: "Brauch ne Auszeit :/"] 22:42:56 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 22:46:01 -!- tauntaun [~Antoninus@64.134.98.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:15 rasterba_ [~rasterbar@adsl-99-109-200-125.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:02 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 22:50:23 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:50:50 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 22:51:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-222.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:51:56 masm [~masm@bl15-66-252.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 22:52:16 -!- rasterba_ [~rasterbar@adsl-99-109-200-125.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:08:52 -!- hhomar [~hhomar@92.26.148.64] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 23:13:19 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:20:31 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:22:06 tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-43511b93.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:23:26 -!- Nisstyre is now known as \\ 23:23:30 -!- \\ is now known as \\\ 23:23:37 -!- \\\ is now known as nisstyre 23:25:15 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.157.83] has joined #scheme 23:29:19 bitweiler [~bitweiler@adsl-99-40-232-158.dsl.stl2mo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:29:50 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 23:31:43 -!- tauntaun is now known as tautaun_away 23:31:50 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- cpach [~carl@h167n3-sde-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:31:50 -!- borism [~boris@ec2-79-125-58-77.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:32:09 cpach [~carl@h167n3-sde-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #scheme 23:32:30 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 23:33:12 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:24 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:35:04 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 23:36:47 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfd9f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 23:43:19 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@75-164-189-139.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme