00:01:27 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:55 Is your CHIBI_MODULE_PATH environment variable set to correct path to modules? 00:04:06 -!- aisa [~aisa@50.sub-69-96-209.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: aisa] 00:04:16 That works. I don't know how to set this in emacs though... 00:05:21 I set it in a shell startup file (~/.kshrc, ~/.bashrc, ...). 00:05:59 Ok, I should do that. 00:06:30 lewis1711's example demonstrates why managed OSs are the future. :-P 00:07:02 In a managed OS, Schem doesn't have to FFI to do "real" stuff; instead, C code has to FFI to do any kind of system calls. 00:07:31 kuribas: where are you running chibi from, and did you install it? 00:07:58 foof: debian linux, I installed in from source (in /usr/local). 00:08:26 I want to use to write programs for my zipit z2 :-) 00:09:02 (which is an arm device). 00:14:05 hmmm... works for me 00:15:19 Yes, it works when I define the environment variable. 00:26:26 pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has joined #scheme 00:26:39 -!- rotty-web [53d79a05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.215.154.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:28:05 amca [~amca@CPE-121-208-84-154.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 00:28:17 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:31:02 -!- dmv_ [~daniel@187.34.52.1] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:33:17 kuribas: oh, were you using a locally written module? 00:35:34 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-5f769be4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:35:46 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-4dbecd92.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 00:36:47 seus [~sbero@69.151.64.32] has joined #scheme 00:37:06 No, a standard one. 00:38:10 then the env var shouldn't be necessary 00:38:28 I am using the chibi-scheme executable. 00:39:37 yes, it shouldn't be necessary - the installed location is included by default 00:40:07 For one reason or the other, it doesn't work. 00:41:08 0.3 tarball or current dev? 00:41:19 0.3 tarball. 00:43:16 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:43:45 question for you guys...in learning racket for school...my teacher gave us this in some code: (? list? ys) i know what everything is, except, what is the first ? all about? I've checked all the documentation and can't find it or am looking over it 00:44:13 is it like a negation or something? 00:45:58 its a special form in match that says 'please exceute a predicate on something' 00:46:06 in this case, it calls `list?' on `ys' 00:46:39 hmm 00:46:42 interesting 00:47:05 thank you 00:47:39 oh wait i take it its like in reg. ex? 00:48:21 no 00:48:27 in regex ? means match 0 or 1 00:48:52 are you using `match' in racket? 00:49:32 foof, same issue: chibi-0.3 cannot find standard modules without explicitely defined via env module path. strace shows that it tries to open '/usr/share/chibi/srfi/9.module' istead of /usr/share/chibi/lib/srfi/9.module'. 00:50:34 /usr/local/share/chibi/lib/srfi/9.module 00:50:38 In makefile it defines moddir to be $prefix/share/chibi, but install target copies directory lib/ there. 00:51:01 So module path becomes $moddir/lib. 00:53:28 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:00 accel [~accel@unaffiliated/accel] has joined #scheme 00:54:15 why is there no single scheme implementation as well designed as haskell, ocaml, or lua? 00:54:33 I um 00:54:40 define 'well designed' 00:54:41 why are there leading questions? 00:54:48 and those three are all languages, not implementations 00:55:05 if by 'haskell' you mean ghc, I think racket is a reasonably well-designed scheme 00:55:17 Why is there no single banana as tasty as an apple, orange, or pear? 00:55:31 carleastlund: well put. 00:58:31 easy 00:58:42 because the scheme community would rather give philosophical answers 00:58:48 rather than accept existing implmenetations suck 00:58:51 and do something about it 00:59:11 Meaningless questions only have philosophical answers. Improve your question and we can improve our answers. 00:59:12 why is there no single user who is more of a troll than accel? 00:59:24 sounds like a challenge 00:59:33 jonrafkind: I bet that's not true 00:59:34 I can always create a more trollish alt. 00:59:42 accel: you're welcome to go troll somewhere else 00:59:47 why is this night different from all other nights? 01:00:04 jonrafkind: it's the 25th of january in 2011? 01:00:08 elly: I've actually used scheme for many years; with many implementations: gambit, chicken, scheme48, guile 01:00:16 and reading their sources 01:00:18 accel: you remain welcome to troll elsewhere 01:00:22 compared to reading the sources of ocaml/haskell 01:00:30 there's a world of difference between clean, well designed systems 01:00:33 and jumble messes 01:00:42 I,I "sources of haskell" 01:00:48 s/haskell/ghc 01:00:52 accel: Nobody stops you programming in those languages. 01:00:58 yeah 01:01:00 the real question is, why does everyone respond to trolls 01:01:02 I like scheme macros 01:01:06 Nobody wants to know how sausage is made. Doesn't mean it tastes bad. 01:01:17 jonrafkind: yeah... 01:01:29 something about being on the internet.. and being wrong..? 01:01:41 it's a disease, I swear 01:01:47 if only there was a webcomic that showed me the light! 01:02:19 quick, start drawing 01:02:25 -!- pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:02:39 cmon, you dont get the reference? 01:02:42 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-172-209.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 01:02:59 I do, jonrafkind 01:03:04 I thought we were being slyly ironic 01:03:10 -!- iommi [~iommi@59.Red-88-18-71.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:06:43 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:13 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 01:11:03 phao [phao@189.107.208.249] has joined #scheme 01:11:54 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:12:40 -!- phao [phao@189.107.208.249] has quit [Client Quit] 01:12:48 phao [phao@189.107.208.249] has joined #scheme 01:14:14 xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-wtwmjjkkltdjaimq] has joined #scheme 01:14:15 -!- jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:43 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 01:22:06 -!- erjiang_ [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:22:28 chicken's been my go-to implementation for years now; but i'm about to embark on a "serious" institutional project, and am actually considering chez. 01:22:53 too bad arcfide is a stranger now; i'd love to hear him advocate for it. 01:23:09 (where do people go when the disappear from #scheme?) 01:23:48 Don't you care about your freedom? :-P 01:24:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-137.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:24:29 fds: there's a cost-benefit analysis between freedom and code-rot, unfortunately. 01:24:35 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:24:44 a lot of the chicken code i shipped in '07, for instance, had to be completely rewritten for chicken 4. 01:25:08 i'm not sure whether chez suffers similarly, or not. 01:25:29 Hm *nods* 01:25:30 It does. 01:27:04 Riastradh: hmm; if so, and given that chez seems intent on implementing r6rs, that may be reason enough to stay away. 01:29:24 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:31 with the lack of typing 01:35:35 for projects over 50K LOC 01:35:43 do most of yo here use lost and lots of unit tests? 01:35:53 (I can't get my scheme progs to scale over 10K before I feel: this sucks, I need types) 01:36:37 vilsonvieira [~vilson@186.212.61.33] has joined #scheme 01:38:15 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:39:22 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 01:41:19 accel: curious, did you try typed racket? 01:42:49 no 01:42:50 never 01:43:59 pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has joined #scheme 01:43:59 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has quit [Changing host] 01:43:59 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 01:44:03 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable198.178-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:44:30 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:48:19 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:53:48 is it just me or racket looks overly complicated? 01:54:20 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:54:55 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:56:45 phao: It's just you. 01:56:51 :-P 01:56:54 phao: compared to what? 01:58:18 Pencil and paper! 01:58:23 Kids these days 01:58:27 not even the docs? 02:01:25 phao: ??? 02:01:26 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@186.212.61.33] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 02:01:33 nevermind 02:01:35 Racket docs are of excellent quality. 02:04:09 erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 02:04:16 yeah, I really like them 02:04:20 they are written in a unique style 02:05:07 -!- kuribas [~user@94-226-137-160.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:05:37 hehe 02:05:38 yeah 02:05:51 they are extremely... precise, I guess 02:06:02 which is good 02:06:24 but kinda sucks when I wanna just do something basic 02:06:48 but.. then, they can't guess what each person believes is basic. 02:09:25 pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has joined #scheme 02:13:03 noonian [~noonian@c-24-20-15-118.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:50 phao: well, people are novices for a little while, and then experts forever (or so the theory goes) 02:14:00 so writing documentation for experts is a better use of time 02:18:12 -!- accel [~accel@unaffiliated/accel] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:19:57 hi guys, i'm having trouble with this problem and am hoping someone can lead me in the right direction: 02:20:02 pytho pasted "fluctuate" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119039 02:20:40 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:22 that is not what random does 02:21:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:21:47 (random x) returns a random number between 0 and x - 1 02:22:03 you are therefore returning a random number between 0 and 5x 02:22:11 is it possible to tweak it to get it to work in this problem? 02:22:23 no 02:22:41 hmm 02:22:56 is there another way to generate random numbers with set conditions? 02:22:59 it sounds to me like you need to create the 5 procedures mentioned, and then select one of them 02:23:04 random suffices for your problem 02:23:24 noonian: uh, what? oO 02:23:46 random suffices 02:24:06 -!- phao [phao@189.107.208.249] has quit [Quit: Fui embora] 02:24:08 random alone? 02:24:19 random and arithmetic ops are sufficient, yes 02:24:26 pytho: I'd recommend figuring out the mathematical formula first, and then translating it into scheme 02:24:37 wait 02:24:40 'formula' 02:24:56 well 02:24:56 hmm, i guess i misunderstoon what it is asking 02:25:14 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.134.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:25:20 noonian: given x, select one of (- x 2), (- x 1), x, (+ x 1) or (+ x 2) with equal probability 02:25:20 figure out the range of numbers that you can produce, and see how that relates to your input 02:25:28 that is a good hint 02:25:29 ok, i'm really having trouble putting this into words 02:25:40 well 02:25:51 pick some x, and figure out which values fluctuate can produce for that x 02:25:52 i'm having trouble understanding too. 02:25:53 find a woman 02:25:54 ah, well you can compute the values right? and you know there will be 5 of them... 02:25:58 repeat a couple of times and a pattern should become clear 02:26:01 and base the rnadomness off of her actions 02:26:07 gavino_himself: there's already a woman here, it doesn't seem to be helping 02:26:08 it's not that you're "selecting" one of those, but you're generating something that is in the range x+/-2 02:26:08 heh 02:26:20 shoot 02:26:33 ah 02:27:02 i still don't get it 02:27:15 pytho: let's say x = 6. What are the possible values of (fluctuate x)? 02:27:18 the number needs to fit into one of 5 categories right 02:27:24 x minus somethind to x plus something 02:27:41 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 02:27:49 oooh i get you elly 02:27:55 good 02:28:07 now how can you use random to select one of 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 with equal probabilit? 02:28:10 probability, rather 02:28:18 that's a good question 02:28:27 well 02:28:39 is there an invocation of random you can use to select one of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 with equal probability? 02:28:57 is that (random 0 5) ? 02:29:02 or just random 5 02:29:04 elly: I think we've explained enough and now he just has to ponder 02:29:07 alright 02:29:11 pytho: good luck! 02:29:16 :P 02:29:18 thanks 02:29:22 but yes, random takes one argument only 02:30:12 thanks for the info 02:30:16 i'll go ponder. 02:32:09 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 02:33:37 hehe, i wrote mine and the first 4 numbers were 4, 5, 6, 7 i thought something went horribly wrong 02:33:42 -!- pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:33:56 Seus pasted "right or wrong track?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119040 02:33:58 pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has joined #scheme 02:34:30 hey guys...new to learning scheme...need to know if I'm on the right track for this problem? can't quite figure out if I need to use a different feature or what 02:34:33 perhaps cons? 02:35:09 as my result is flattened and i need it with sub lists 02:35:23 I think you only need to define one procedure 02:35:34 not sure why you have defined both censor and replace 02:35:40 and I think you can do everything with cons 02:35:45 hmm... 02:36:03 right, no need for append nor list 02:36:05 i guess i need more practice with cons 02:36:23 (append (list foo) bar) -> (cons foo bar) 02:36:23 i've looked at it, just not seeing it yet 02:36:49 hmm 02:36:50 yeah it looks like you're really close 02:37:07 as a side note, don't put end parens on their own lines 02:37:26 just shove them all onto the end of the last line 02:37:31 ok 02:37:35 will do thx :) 02:38:01 what is xs and ys? 02:38:09 i think you may want to think a little more fundementally, how about how to replace them in a single list first 02:38:31 good point, because from there it's a simple augmentation 02:39:16 yeah i don't know how to do that...i don't understand how to replace them in the single list 02:39:33 while still accessing elements further inside of the list itself 02:39:37 well, try writing a shallow version of replace 02:39:50 you can do this using car, cdr, and cons 02:39:57 think about returning a new list that is what you want instead of replacing items 02:40:01 you only ever access the first item of the list, and then process the rest of the list in the recursive step 02:40:46 offtopic: can you use substring when dealing with numbers? 02:40:48 like erjiang says, most of the procedure just deals with replacing a single element of the list 02:41:00 -!- bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:41:06 just the first i mean 02:41:09 this is tricky to explain isn't it 02:41:15 pytho: no, because numbers are not strings 02:41:29 it might be illustrative to write `map' before trying this, seus 02:42:23 or first write how to replace just the first element of a list with 'X 02:42:39 noonian: good idea! 02:42:40 and assume it will only be a symbol character or string 02:42:48 thanks 02:42:51 see ive figured out how to replace the first elemen of a list with 'X 02:43:01 seus: let's see it 02:43:40 (replace (cons 'X (cdr xs))) 02:44:02 what does replace do? 02:44:10 oh thats just from the paste i had 02:44:32 otherwise its just (cons 'X (cdr xs)) 02:45:11 ok, now write a procedure that does that, but first checks to make sure its a symbol, char, or string 02:45:17 and doesnt do it otherwise 02:45:30 just returnes xs 02:45:48 ok 02:45:50 one sec 02:45:55 that is not the hard part of the process 02:46:09 write a procedure that replaces *all* elements of a list with 'X 02:46:28 its almost the same procedure 02:49:33 ok so i've got the procedure done that replaces the first element with 'X but checks it against those three things first 02:49:54 seus: ok, so on your (cons 'X (cdr xs)) step... 02:50:04 obviously it runs in an infinite loop atm since it never gets beyond the first element 02:50:18 hmm? 02:50:38 seus: you should probably fix that first 02:50:43 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:51:03 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:51:16 -!- xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-wtwmjjkkltdjaimq] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:51:28 so are you trying to recurse already? 02:52:05 yes 02:52:52 Seus annotated #119040 "censor updated." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119040#1 02:53:12 ah 02:53:19 ok so i updated it...i guess i'm unsure of where to go to have it move onto the 'next' item 02:53:23 take out all the calls to censor 02:53:29 ah 02:53:30 i would re-write it and remove the recursion first 02:53:31 ok 02:53:31 leaving just (cons (car xs) (cdr xs)) 02:54:41 ok i've gotten that far 02:54:52 it will return the list with the first ele. as an X 02:55:01 so, when you cons 'X to (cdr xs) 02:55:05 what could you cons to instead 02:55:12 that would be the already-processed rest of the list? 02:55:26 (cdr xs) is the unprocessed rest of the list 02:55:31 correct 02:55:46 what could you do to process (cdr xs)? 02:56:20 have cdr go through censor again? 02:56:29 yes! 02:56:31 yes 02:56:32 how would that be written? 02:56:47 well (censor (cdr xs)) 02:57:12 so the entire cons statement becomes? 02:57:18 and there you have censor for non nested lists :) 02:57:24 so would i then have (cons 'X (censor (cdr xs))) 02:57:34 exactly 02:57:38 that's recursion! 02:57:40 hmm i think i see it 02:57:41 except you need a base case 02:57:44 or it won't know where to end 02:57:56 i think it'd be null 02:57:57 so before you were recursing on the too much 02:58:07 and never shortening the list you were recursing on 02:58:49 yeah that's what i was struggling with figuring out 02:59:03 the book "The Little Schemer" really helps you start to think this way 02:59:18 helped me at least 03:00:30 i'll have to get it 03:00:35 and then to get for nested lists all you need to do is add a single case for if the car of xs is a list 03:02:21 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:19 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 03:03:52 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable198.178-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:03:53 so (list? (car xs)) (censor (car xs)) 03:04:41 that only returns the first element censored though, you need to include the rest of the list 03:05:26 your right 03:05:40 it flattened my list :( 03:05:53 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Quit: peace] 03:06:03 i bet you did what i did the first time when i wrote it just now 03:06:13 did you use append? 03:06:16 no 03:06:24 oh 03:06:32 how did you do it? 03:06:54 cons to the rescue? 03:07:13 i mean, how did he flatten it without append 03:07:27 did you recurse inside censor? 03:07:39 oh i had it return (car xs) into censor 03:08:28 so (censor (censor (car xs))? 03:09:10 ok i think i just got it 03:09:14 nice 03:09:23 i think my head just clicked for this type of recursion 03:09:29 -!- pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:09:48 hehe 03:09:51 hax 03:09:59 Seus annotated #119040 "'(final-censor-behold)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119040#2 03:10:28 beautiful :) 03:10:36 i didn't realize that its basically building the list in the definition 03:10:43 except for the brackets []'s :P 03:11:00 no like my brackets?? how come? 03:11:48 actually they are fine 03:12:10 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:12:15 i just never used them so they look weird to me hehe 03:12:30 ah 03:12:31 i gotcha 03:12:40 i'm using racket so it auto makes them 03:12:52 ah 03:13:24 so now i think i just gotta do this same thing except instead of changing the lists, i need to reverse them 03:13:44 with....reverse 03:13:46 :) 03:14:11 nice 03:14:24 lets see how this one goes 03:14:36 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:14:45 i won't ask for anything unless i'm really stumped....which will be about 10-15m from now i'm sure 03:16:33 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 03:17:23 have fun 03:17:29 just ordered the little schemer off of amazon too 03:17:45 have it in 2 days 03:17:55 awesome 03:18:08 its not like a normal programming book 03:20:07 It's awesome. 03:20:08 -!- rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:20:15 It'll give your brain a run for its money. 03:20:37 (Yes, your brain has money. :-P) 03:21:04 hehe 03:23:19 erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:32 haha 03:23:34 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 03:23:37 i def. look forward to reading it 03:23:50 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 03:24:03 i also got 'The Scheme - programming language' hopefully have it read within 2 weeks 03:24:25 -!- rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Client Quit] 03:25:33 did you guys have any idea, btw, that org-mode could be used as a literate programming environment for scheme? 03:25:41 seus: TSPL is available online for free 03:25:56 seus: I use it more as a reference than tutorial 03:25:59 yeah i just really prefer physical books 03:26:13 it even features the elusive pretty-print that noweb deferred. 03:26:21 can't Ctrl-F in a physical book :) 03:26:23 this is revolutionary. 03:26:23 i feel, i stare at a computer screen for so long now a days...the break is good for me 03:26:32 haha very true 03:27:00 how long have most of you been using scheme for? 03:27:00 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:32:23 about 3 years for me 03:33:21 nice 03:33:31 <- 1 week 03:33:34 cool 03:33:50 yeah first procedural language too 03:34:00 so a bit getting used to 03:34:08 structure and interpretation of computer programs is a great book too. it teaches programming but uses scheme 03:35:32 hmm looks good 03:36:38 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 03:36:38 man i got some funky thing going on here with my list...maybe one too many cons or something 03:36:58 for reverse? 03:37:16 here i'll paste it 03:37:36 Seus annotated #119040 "deep-reverse" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119040#3 03:38:07 as before i would try to reverse a single list first 03:38:30 and it may help to write a helper function 03:38:38 i did that... pretty easy (reverse xs) 03:39:30 lets see reverse 03:39:46 oh i'm just using the built in reverse 03:39:50 oh 03:39:51 i didn't write anything to do it 03:41:06 well, this problem sounds like it wants you to write it in a way that reverses it on its own :P 03:41:12 stepping through it i'm good up until it breaks down the first list 03:41:47 its because you are consing it to something 03:41:52 and the something is not a lits 03:41:53 noonian: What you mean you need to write your own reverse? 03:41:55 list* 03:42:33 im not saying you need to write your own reverse, but if i wrote deep-reverse it would reverse a list on its own and it would not need to use the built in reverse function 03:42:48 rudybot: (define (reverse l (l2 '())) (if (null? l) l2 (reverse (cdr l) (cons (car l) l2)))) 03:42:48 cky: your racket sandbox is ready 03:42:48 cky: Done. 03:42:56 rudybot: (reverse '(1 2 3 4)) 03:42:57 cky: error: reverse: expects 1 argument, given 2: (2 3 4) (1) 03:43:03 Oh fail. 03:43:22 its a homework problem for him though 03:43:34 rudybot: (define (cky-reverse l (l2 '())) (if (null? l) l2 (cky-reverse (cdr l) (cons (car l) l2)))) 03:43:34 cky: Done. 03:43:35 and if it was in the vein of the first one it sounds like it expects you to write it 03:43:37 yes i need to fully understand this 03:43:39 rudybot: (cky-reverse '(1 2 3 4)) 03:43:39 cky: ; Value: (4 3 2 1) 03:44:00 actually i asked the prof. he said we can use reverse no problems 03:44:05 just no list-ref 03:44:27 this is actually the last one i got...had 6 others that i finished already 03:44:46 tempted to go back through them now and make sure it's done using recursion 03:44:47 ok, well in your else step, you realize that you cant cons the element onto the reversed cdr cuz it wouldnt be revered right? so you are trying to write reverse anyway if all the elements were not lists 03:44:50 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:45:28 which is why your lists are screwed up cuz you are using this same form but trying to work backwards 03:45:42 i think i see what your saying let me try it out 03:46:11 one thing that might make this easier is if you were to try writing censor in a tail-recursive form using either a named let or a helper procedure 03:47:19 i need to read about tail-recursion...teacher didn't really teach it yet 03:47:27 he talked about it for 5 minutes 03:47:33 if that 03:47:49 ok, well i basically it means the recursion has to be the last procedure called in the body 03:48:14 Lemme try to write an implementation. :-P 03:48:16 so if you look as censor, after we call (censor (cdr lis)) we always call cons 03:48:34 yeah 03:48:58 the hint is you may want to write a helper procedure 03:49:35 hmm...to send the actual lists into? and then have them come out clean and the main procedure actually cons them together? 03:49:53 not quite 03:51:06 censor will not be recursive, but will do all the recursive stuff in the helper procedure 03:51:24 Thankfully, my implementation was correct on first try. :-P 03:51:35 rudybot: give seus deep-reverse 03:51:35 seus: cky has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 03:51:51 and the helper procedure will have another argument that you can think of as a result that you build up 03:52:14 seus: If you type: "rudybot: (define deep-reverse (GRAB))", you can play with deep-reverse as a black box. 03:52:33 That you can use to compare your version with. 03:52:46 cool thx man 03:52:50 timj__ [~timj@e176193122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:55:10 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:55:51 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176192123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:57:12 ugh, my homework is in c :P 03:57:19 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:58:19 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:53 noonian: Awww.... 04:00:09 well..i still have c++ homework I gotta finish, and A.I....oh and 2 software projects to finish up too 04:00:14 Hahahahaha. 04:00:23 fml 04:00:36 i should say gotta be done by friday 04:00:54 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 04:01:41 cky pasted "seus, don't read this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119041 04:01:51 But the likes of noonian etc. are welcome to read it. :-P 04:03:00 yep, thats how i would do it more or less 04:03:04 *nods* 04:03:42 but i dont use racket so no default params 04:03:51 Well, you can use a named let too. 04:03:54 I'm just too lazy to use one. 04:04:00 yeah 04:04:55 i guess i need to figure out what this named let is..as that code is a LOT shorter than what i'm coming up with 04:05:28 named let lets you use the body of a let as a procedure that takes arguments, with 'initial' values bound by the named let 04:06:38 so let me ask you this...what's the (12 '()) ? that there will be 12 parenthesis? 04:06:48 seus: That's called an "optional argument". 04:06:55 seus: That's my lazy way of ducking out of using a named let. 04:07:31 It means, if you specify a value, that value is used; otherwise, the default value is '(). 04:07:42 hmm 04:07:47 noonian annotated #119041 "examples" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119041#1 04:08:29 there are 3 versions that are all equivalent 04:08:35 noonian: You need to edit some of your deep-reverse calls to call helper instead. :-P 04:08:41 ack 04:08:43 hes right 04:09:55 cky annotated #119041 "named let version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119041#2 04:10:02 noonian annotated #119041 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119041#3 04:10:08 seus: There, I've posted a version that uses named let. 04:10:37 noonian: P.S. Your version with let is very unnamed. :-P 04:10:48 oops lol, 04:11:10 thats what you get for not using an editor and trying your code lol 04:11:16 seus: When you see something like "(let loop (...) ...)", that's a named let. 04:11:26 seus: The "name" is, in this case, "loop". 04:11:47 noonian annotated #119041 "finally it probably works" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119041#4 04:11:56 ok i think i get it 04:12:08 there i used helper as the name 04:12:20 crap 04:12:22 noonian: You can write private messages to rudybot, you know that right? 04:12:29 noonian: That's how I test my stuff before I post it. 04:13:25 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-172-209.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:13:34 noonian annotated #119041 "now" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119041#5 04:13:40 ah 04:13:58 erjiang_ [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 04:14:03 well i have my interpreter open anyway hehe i was just lazy 04:14:10 but it definitely didnt pay off those times 04:14:12 :-P 04:14:24 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:14:43 i still havent tested it but now its a pride thing 04:14:50 And you're still failing. 04:14:52 :-P 04:15:03 I say this even without having to test it. :-P 04:15:20 I'll give you a hint: deep-reverse is unary, and helper is binary. 04:15:23 Match accordingly. 04:15:26 crap i copied the wrong one when i went to fix it again 04:16:08 Srsly, you probably should have just stuck to the optional-arguments version. :-P 04:16:39 so the 12 itself though means nothing then? 04:16:52 or that's the name of the optional arg? 04:17:58 noonian annotated #119041 "please" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119041#6 04:18:14 yeah, basically 04:18:20 ah ok 04:18:29 to write a tail recursive version you build up from a null list '() 04:18:58 so you need 2 args, and for the single argument one you just initialize it to '() 04:19:15 seus: BTW: l2 as in "ell two", not "twelve". 04:19:20 yeah 04:19:28 seus: I used "l" to mean "list", so "l2" means "list 2". 04:19:48 ah i miss read it as twelve 04:19:57 anyway, one thing this demonstrates is that when you do things tail recursively, often they end up reversed 04:20:08 Indeed. 04:20:25 so a lot of times when you dont want them reversed, you just return the reversed version at the end 04:20:29 That's because singly-linked lists are LIFO, not FIFO. 04:20:43 so then these are tail-recursive...you have it start with the null list...and then thats why we're returning l2 at the end of both statements 04:20:58 actually, thats stacks and queues, lists can be used to implement either 04:21:04 seus: Yes, it's tail-recursive. 04:21:14 you dont always start with the null list but sometimes 04:21:17 noonian: You can implement queues with singly-linked lists? O_o 04:21:29 yes 04:21:33 (Without incurring O(n) time complexity.) 04:21:57 but even with incurring O(n) time complexity it doesnt matter you can do it 04:22:08 which is why it doesnt really make sense to say that about lists 04:22:15 Well, if you don't care about time complexity, you can do anything with any data structure. 04:22:24 Of course I care about time complexity. 04:23:01 yes, but a queue means FIFO, and a stack means FILO 04:23:05 That would be why I don't use vectors for everything (stares daggers at your average Ruby/Python/PHP programmer). 04:23:09 thats what defines them 04:23:37 but anyway, you can easily keep a pointer to the end of a singly linked list in most programming languages seus 04:23:51 *jcowan* thinks he'll maybe write down some Joy-style combinators in Scheme 04:24:03 noonian: No, that won't work. 04:24:13 well, not for inserting 04:24:15 noonian: How can you pop two values out of a queue, in O(1) time? 04:24:27 or, popping i mean 04:24:27 jcowan: \o/ 04:24:45 Well, you can do it in O(2) time, which is the same thing. 04:24:52 lol 04:25:26 jcowan: I mean for a singly-linked list of size N, how do you treat it as a FIFO, and pop out M values without incurring O(N*M)? 04:25:50 Oh. Use a pair that points to the first and last pair in the list, or is (() . ()) if the list is empty. 04:25:51 jcowan: I contend that one can't, at least not with Lisp lists. noonian seems to think it's doable. 04:25:57 That's a classic solution. 04:25:58 well its easy if you know you need to pop out m values 04:26:04 jcowan: Yes, but you can traverse backwards. 04:26:11 *can't 04:26:20 not contant time, but in n time 04:26:21 jcowan: I mean, if you have to update the "last" pointer, that's O(n) each time. 04:26:36 And that would indeed incur O(N*M) time for popping M values. 04:26:43 I don't understand. It's O(1) to push at the end of the list and O(1) to pop from the front. 04:27:30 Oh wait. I think I get your solution now. 04:27:32 if you knew ahead of time that you had to pop m values though, you go to the n-mth one, get the rest of the list, reverse it, then pop from the front, which is O(2n) = O(n) 04:27:33 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-169-4.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 04:28:07 It would require mutable cons cells, and you'd set-cdr! the end node each time. 04:28:13 (Each time you insert.) 04:28:41 I was thinking the other way around, by popping out the back and inserting into the front. 04:28:48 But clearly the other way around is much more workable. 04:29:53 In any case, jcowan++. 04:30:10 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:30:42 noonian: Sure, but that doesn't answer the general case, which I believe jcowan's answer does. 04:31:19 The extra pair is called a "tconc cell". Googling for "tconc" will probably find the exact algorithm, but it's not hard to work it out yourself. 04:31:25 Of course, jcowan's answer requires set-cdr!, and if you're willing to use that, you can write tail-recursive right-unfolds with ease. 04:31:39 Left-unfolds, sorry. 04:31:42 *jcowan* nods. 04:31:57 jcowan: Oh, I totally get how it works. 04:32:05 jcowan, can that pop from both sides and insert both sides? if it can i dont understand what you mean 04:32:20 noonian: No, push at the end, pop at the front. 04:32:31 noonian: It's not double-ended. 04:32:56 Hmm. I think it can, actually. 04:33:02 yeah, ok so thats what i said lol 04:33:09 ?? 04:33:14 in O(1) time? 04:33:15 Obviously you can add things to the front, but no, you can't remove from the end. 04:33:21 So it's a restricted deque. 04:33:41 eut [~m@cpe-24-24-136-239.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:34:25 yeah 04:34:44 thanks a ton guys...i'm going to keep working on this assignment :) 04:34:53 yep, have fun man 04:35:11 thx...i'll be back...especially once i'm done with the little schemer 04:35:44 See you next year, then. 04:36:51 i still havent finished it lol, i keep getting off track when it tells you to make cookies 04:37:07 Nor I. 04:37:13 and provides a recipe 04:37:38 Hehehehehe. 04:38:09 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39:34 haha 04:41:52 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:44:15 -!- erjiang_ [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:57:48 -!- seus [~sbero@69.151.64.32] has quit [Quit: seus] 05:06:12 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 05:10:37 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 05:12:53 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 05:18:46 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-242-224.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:21:27 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:23:46 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:30:19 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-4dbecd92.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:30:32 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-4dbed13a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 05:35:27 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:35:31 -!- amca [~amca@CPE-121-208-84-154.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Farewell] 05:40:00 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 since the room is quiet, this guys fascist lisp rantings are sort of amusing, in a morbidly fascinating kinda way 05:49:09 he sounds very passionate about structure 05:49:21 he sounds like a life-long virgin to me 05:49:23 :) 05:49:52 not that I'm exactly a ladies man, but you need a bit of balance in life eh?:D 05:52:36 structure is important 05:54:57 lewis1711: I object to the use of "virgin" as a derogatory term, for the record. 05:55:15 i dont know enough about closure to have an opinion, and he doesn't back up anything he says 05:55:28 who says it's derogatory? 05:55:43 that's your assumption that virginity is a negative thing, you fascist 05:55:45 Well, if you say it's not, then I'll take you at your word. 05:56:05 However, if you don't deny it, I will assume that you mean it in the spirit most people mean it when they say it in such contexts. 05:56:57 I meant exactly what I said. I doubt he has had sex before. 05:57:19 Okay. When most people say it in such a context, it's meant as a slur. 05:57:50 its only a slur if you assume that hes been trying to have sex :P 05:57:51 meh. i don't really slur. a call a spade a spade and then people get worked up;) 05:58:16 noonian: Heh. 05:59:35 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:28 I do like the sentence "A Lisp which barfs Java stack traces" 06:03:33 k04n [~k04n@69.198.190.21] has joined #scheme 06:05:34 yea lol, he had good imagery 06:06:34 -!- k04n [~k04n@69.198.190.21] has quit [Client Quit] 06:07:28 It's literally true 06:07:47 I remember the first time I started it up and typed (cdr 5) and got a so-familiar-but-not-in-this-context Java stack trace. 06:10:13 I think his blog seems pretty accurate (from the two posts that I've read), if a little ranty 06:13:27 ick 06:20:52 The comments, they do protest too much. 06:23:51 -!- evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:24:05 Yeah, I agree. 06:25:23 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28:02 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:40:35 _danb_ [~user@124-169-135-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 06:43:15 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-197.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 07:06:09 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 07:08:16 annodomini [~lambda@2001:470:1f07:189:21c:b3ff:febc:c615] has joined #scheme 07:08:16 -!- annodomini [~lambda@2001:470:1f07:189:21c:b3ff:febc:c615] has quit [Changing host] 07:08:16 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 07:08:44 Jafet1 [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 07:08:45 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:11:20 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:11:29 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 07:24:22 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 07:25:48 -!- tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:28:53 guys, earth shattering question 07:29:17 (lambda (var) ...) or (lambda(var) ...) 07:29:18 which is nicer 07:30:41 The former style complements the mysterious ellipsis elegantly, with balanced Qi 07:32:13 You should only ever write the first, haven't you read style.txt? :-P 07:32:26 but 07:32:31 people do lambda(), not lambda () 07:32:33 life is so confusing 07:32:38 Who does that? 07:32:45 don't they? maybe it was just me 07:32:55 I've never seen it in Scheme/Lisp code 07:33:20 yeah who would do that ha ha 07:33:29 *lewis1711* quite refactors a bunch of spaces after "lambda" in his code 07:33:31 lewis1711: Never try to mimic Algol syntax with Lisp. 07:33:59 algol syntax?? THIS...IS...LAMBDA!!! 07:34:01 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 07:34:05 lewis1711: M-x replace-regexp to the rescue! 07:34:21 lewis1711: Also, http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt :-) 07:34:30 There should always be whitespace before open bracket (unless preceded by another open bracket), and after close bracket (unless followed by another close bracket). 07:34:56 lewis1711: "people do lambda(), not lambda ()" <-- that isn't Algol-style syntax? 07:35:09 i didnt even know you could do lambda() 07:35:21 noonian: I think lewis1711 was referring to the likes of Python. 07:35:26 ah 07:35:32 Hence my comment about Algol-style syntax. 07:35:34 cky: nope 07:35:42 Brackets break symbols in Scheme 07:35:48 You don;t need the whitespace 07:35:50 for some reason I was sure people wrote it without the space 07:36:02 fds: Yes, but that's blasphemous. 07:36:11 cky: I agree completely 07:36:15 lewis1711: Only in blasphemous code. 07:36:22 wow, it totally worked 07:36:28 lol 07:36:35 you sound like a common lisp programmer cky :P 07:36:48 lewis1711: Actually, I'm _much_ more familiar with Scheme than CL. 07:36:52 Traditions exist for good reasons 07:37:03 (Sometimes) 07:37:03 fds: like stoning women? 07:37:05 :) 07:37:05 fds: In terms of Lisp formatting, I wholeheartedly agree. 07:37:06 ahaha 07:37:13 -!- incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 07:37:14 *cky* stones lewis1711. 07:37:29 incubot [~incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 07:37:32 *lewis1711* makes predictable marijuana joke 07:37:44 lewis1711: You only get to do that if you voted for ALCP. 07:43:09 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:44:02 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:44:30 they stone men too 07:45:15 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:42 *lewis1711* doesn't know what that is 07:50:05 lewis1711: You live in New Zealand and have never heard of ALCP? :-O 07:50:13 ALCP == Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party 07:50:19 ah 07:50:28 I am not that familiar with it that I know the initials off by heart:D 07:50:57 I used to be a university student. I'm quite familiar with many topics students deal with. :-) 07:52:21 Heh 07:52:55 I miss New Zealand. 07:53:22 I should go someday in the not too distant future 07:53:26 I miss my favourite New Zealand cities, in particular Christchurch. 07:53:43 Yeah, it'll be fun. :-) 07:54:04 *cky* has no intention of ever giving up my Kiwi passport. 07:54:22 The flight(s)'ll be a killer though :-P 07:54:29 Oh, I'm used to it. 07:54:46 But yes, it's at least 12 hours, if you're flying from the US. 07:55:01 I've flown UK <-> Mexico a few times, but I hate it every time 07:57:38 *nods* 07:58:11 cky: see, I thought you were talking about Aotearoa Lisp Computer Programmers group 07:59:03 flying isn't painful for me after my last epic 5 day flight, due to sleeping at airports, and horribly delayed flights 07:59:22 12 hours? pfft :) 08:00:06 arbscht: :-D 08:00:09 not that I'd recommend it, had some weird lack of sleep hallucinations 08:00:29 lewis1711: In your case, no lack of sleep is necessary. ;-) 08:00:41 ha 08:00:42 I wishj 08:07:28 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:08:59 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:10:14 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:13:08 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:15:02 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:15:07 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:16:40 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 08:17:28 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:17:32 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:28:53 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:39:41 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:43:58 -!- noonian [~noonian@c-24-20-15-118.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:55:02 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:55:27 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:57:48 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 08:59:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:02:23 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:04:40 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:05:13 f8l [~f8l@87-205-27-57.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #scheme 09:07:02 -!- adarnimrod [~nimrod@bzq-79-177-209-98.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:12:18 -!- kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:50 kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 09:23:02 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 09:25:30 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:27:34 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:39:39 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 09:41:12 Lemonator [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 09:42:14 ASau [~user@95-27-147-227.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 09:44:49 -!- kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:49 -!- Lemonator [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:59 kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 09:53:30 aisa_ [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:53:30 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:53:31 -!- aisa_ is now known as aisa 10:06:42 -!- kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-137.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 10:07:48 kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 10:11:18 -!- kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:41 kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 10:12:00 -!- kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:01 jesus christ, how do you open a file in gambit so it interprets it then drops to the interpreter? I've been trying for like half an hour, documentation is nigh on useless 10:17:08 ah nm got it:P gsc -e "(load \"file.scm\") 10:17:17 gsi file - 10:18:01 even better, thanks 10:20:59 kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 10:24:35 -!- kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:56 kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 10:37:47 -!- gavino_himself [~g@pool-74-111-197-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:28 -!- kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:43 kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 10:46:43 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 10:51:51 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-197.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:52:24 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-197.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 10:54:27 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-197.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:54:50 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-197.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 11:05:20 phao [phao@189.107.218.94] has joined #scheme 11:09:25 -!- phao [phao@189.107.218.94] has quit [Client Quit] 11:09:42 phao [phao@189.107.218.94] has joined #scheme 11:10:31 -!- pantsd [~hkarau@nat/uwaterloo/x-khqpqfrjapavoaku] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:12:01 pantsd [~hkarau@nat/uwaterloo/x-wahxybbnxilkricg] has joined #scheme 11:18:02 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 11:19:45 -!- phao [phao@189.107.218.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:27:30 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-169-4.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:37:34 `micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #scheme 11:38:45 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:39:45 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 11:45:05 zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-196-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 11:56:20 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-196-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #scheme 12:04:57 wisey [~Steven@host86-150-108-29.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:07:31 phao [phao@189.107.231.27] has joined #scheme 12:11:16 zevarito_ [~zevarito@r186-48-206-250.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:13:31 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 12:17:17 aisa_ [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:17:17 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:18 -!- aisa_ is now known as aisa 12:19:06 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:19:15 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:19:42 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 12:20:36 aisa_ [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:20:55 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:20:55 -!- aisa_ is now known as aisa 12:24:55 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:25:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:32:11 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 12:38:18 aisa_ [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:38:18 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:18 -!- aisa_ is now known as aisa 12:41:28 aisa_ [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:41:28 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:41:28 -!- aisa_ is now known as aisa 12:44:45 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:44:46 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 12:44:51 phao_ [phao@189.12.247.109] has joined #scheme 12:46:11 ventonegro [~alex@200.150.183.81] has joined #scheme 12:46:42 -!- phao [phao@189.107.231.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:46:48 -!- phao_ [phao@189.12.247.109] has quit [Client Quit] 12:47:19 pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 12:52:51 minh [~minh@p54A86948.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:53:59 Hi everybody! I want to begin programming scheme - is there a way to do this in emacs slime? What do you guys use to write/develop scheme? 12:56:49 minh: what scheme are you using? 12:58:07 jao: I don't know yet...I will be starting a big scheme project (3-5 months) in about 2 weeks 12:58:44 jao: Messed a bit with common lisp for preparation...Slime is awesome...but now I decided to do the project in SCHEME instead of common lisp.. 12:59:30 minh: for MIT scheme, there's a swank impl in slime's contrib; for Guile and PLT Racket, there's Geiser (http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/); for Chicken there's also a swank implementation (but i haven't used it) 12:59:38 It's a university project (bachelor thesis), so I dont have anz "preferences" for the scheme implementation...I just wish, there was something that would work with SLIME 12:59:55 any 13:00:18 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 13:00:27 minh: see above (swank = protocol used by slime) 13:00:33 jao: To get you right: so there is a way to get SLIME working with scheme bz using MIT Scheme_ 13:00:37 jao: To get you right: so there is a way to get SLIME working with scheme bz using MIT Scheme? 13:00:47 minh: geiser is also very nice, even if jao is too modest to say so 13:01:13 minh: yes, but i don't know how much of the whole slime functionality is available 13:01:38 (sorrz for the typing errors - i'm sitting at a SUPER weird keyboard, ssh'ed into my main machine at home) 13:01:38 minh: same thing for chicken 13:03:10 minh: the previous Chicken Gazette had an introduction to using Chicken with SLIME, see http://gazette.call-cc.org/issues/17.html 13:03:35 joa: can you give me a pointer on how to get that swank-implementation working with slime? (I don't have much clue of slime either...but I'm quite certain that I want to use it for scheme if there is a way...and there is a way, as you said) 13:03:57 k 13:03:58 Is there anyway to make a procedure defined inside a procedure accessible to the arguments of the outer procedure? :| 13:03:59 DerGuteMoritz: I'll check that out! 13:04:00 oops 13:04:11 lewis1711: for example? 13:04:25 -!- zevarito_ [~zevarito@r186-48-206-250.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #scheme 13:05:12 minh: note that by now you can just chicken-install slime instead of checking it out manually 13:05:38 (define (foo ...) (define (lol ...) ... )) then (foo (lol arg)) 13:06:45 lewis1711: that's the whole point of local definitions, limit their scope to the definition they are defined 13:07:06 minh: in the slime sources, contrib/swank-mit-scheme.scm has a brief tutorial in the file header; it's all i know (last time i tried it offered a rather limited subset of slime's functionality, but it has been revised since then) 13:07:42 C-Keen: yeah i sort of want "local plus outer function arguments" scope, but don't think I'll get it:P 13:08:27 why define it locally in the first place then? 13:08:52 you wouldn't understand! *runs away crying* 13:09:04 it's for my object system I am working on again, will post it in a minute 13:09:30 lewis1711: what you can do is return a dispatch procedure 13:09:44 lewis1711: abelson/sussman did it in scip 13:09:49 sicp 13:10:07 I think I am already doing that. moment 13:11:10 mathk__ [~mathk@194.177.62.23] has joined #scheme 13:11:27 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/327159/ since noone reads comments, "table" is roughtly equivalent to most schemes "hash" 13:11:51 line 46 of course, this is not in the scope, but it's the sort of functionality I'd like to have 13:11:52 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 13:14:14 you can require a function (lambda (this) ...) 13:14:28 lewis1711 pasted "paste.pocoo sucks" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119051 13:14:51 sorry, require it where now? 13:15:11 in your (public get-name (lambda (this). ...)) 13:15:14 -!- mathk [~mathk@194.177.62.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:15:14 -!- mathk__ is now known as mathk 13:16:07 hmmm. but @public or @private wouldn't be in the scope...or would it... 13:16:46 oh wait no, I see 13:16:47 *lewis1711* tries 13:18:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-137.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:47 hmm would have to change it so it internally applies "this". first things first is to change this from a let to an internal define, since it's horribly in inefficent merging the tables for each loop in the for-each 13:27:42 Ruinpeople [~email@109.130.39.216] has joined #scheme 13:34:26 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 13:42:21 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 13:44:13 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:56:52 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-150-108-29.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:07:53 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 14:16:50 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 14:20:55 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 14:33:04 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 14:38:55 phao [phao@189.12.247.109] has joined #scheme 14:43:48 dmv_ [~daniel@187.35.237.98] has joined #scheme 14:45:05 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 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[Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:34:22 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #scheme 15:38:38 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 15:41:57 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:48:00 twem2 [~twem2@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #scheme 15:48:55 writing functional code is much better than code with side effects =) 15:49:09 I've never had so much fun writing a date-handling module 15:50:24 :-) 15:51:06 cky, got chicken working on windows using an installer a guy posted today (or yesterday) somewhere (mario-gourlat sent me the link) =) 15:52:08 aisa_ [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:52:26 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:27 -!- aisa_ is now known as aisa 15:52:44 Fancy pants. 15:54:39 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #scheme 16:02:42 pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has joined 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timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42:46 -!- pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:43:00 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:44:55 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:36 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-39.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:46:18 noonian [~noonian@c-24-20-15-118.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:57:13 -!- phao [phao@189.12.247.109] has quit [Quit: Fui embora] 17:00:39 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:05 -!- noonian [~noonian@c-24-20-15-118.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:03:54 noonian [~noonian@c-24-20-15-118.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:11:32 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:12:50 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:15:16 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:27 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:06 - Are you buying or are you curious? - What can I say... I guess I'm buy-curious. 17:20:56 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 17:21:04 pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 17:21:05 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 17:27:10 that's terrible, Caleb-- 17:27:28 it's a quote from Arrested Development 17:28:28 -!- ventonegro [~alex@200.150.183.81] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 17:29:45 -!- Fill [~Fill@unaffiliated/fill] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:30:18 Fill [~Fill@static.195.170.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 17:34:22 jewel_ [~jewel@196-215-109-176.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:34:57 phao [phao@189.107.236.26] has joined #scheme 17:35:10 is fluid-let like a "temporary set!" for syntax 17:35:14 ? 17:35:22 fluid-let-syntax I mean 17:35:52 fluid-let is like a temporary set! for non-syntax 17:35:55 make of that what you will 17:36:04 femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-16-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 17:36:09 I meant fluid-let-syntax. 17:36:14 I mistyped 17:36:19 I usually think of it all as some variant of dynamic scoping. :-P 17:36:37 ...or at least, the Perl realisation thereof ("local"). 17:37:15 ive never even heard of fluid let 17:37:59 phao: yes in a way 17:38:02 "it's like let, but more fluid" 17:38:14 heh 17:38:15 thx 17:38:17 It's like dynamic scoping. :-P 17:39:19 is it part of the standards? 17:39:24 noonian: No. 17:39:43 srfi-15 defines fluid-let 17:40:25 Withdrawn? :-( 17:40:39 I wonder if it's been revived in another SRFI. 17:42:10 most scheme's have fluid-let but cannot agree on the precise meaning 17:42:16 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:54 cky: also it becomes really weird with threads 17:43:05 Yeah, I bet. 17:43:10 SRFI 39 17:43:37 sloyd: yeah but that is not fluid let 17:49:39 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 17:52:59 parolang [~kevin@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 18:04:03 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:04:24 -!- noonian [~noonian@c-24-20-15-118.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:57 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 18:13:58 heiz [~heiz@ppp89-110-6-66.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #scheme 18:21:20 Hi! I'd like to define function that takes a symbol, checks something and define symbol. I tried to to it http://pastie.org/1499912 but got errors. What's wrong? 18:22:51 Scheme doesn't work that way. When executing a program, the symbol A has no connection to any variable that happened to have been written with the same name in the source code to the program. The semantics of the program, however, is independent of such cosmetic details of its source code. 18:23:36 s/, however,//1 18:28:13 -!- heiz [~heiz@ppp89-110-6-66.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 18:30:30 alvatar [~alvatar@8.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:31:29 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@8.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:35 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-16-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:48 -!- Fill [~Fill@static.195.170.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Changing host] 18:35:48 Fill [~Fill@unaffiliated/fill] has joined #scheme 18:36:16 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 18:36:40 he could've done it with eval, depending on the implementation he was on 18:37:00 *pukes* 18:37:13 haha 18:37:34 That would work only by accident, perhaps due to misdesign of the system or for debugging purposes. 18:41:31 idd, anyways it works on chicken 18:46:42 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 18:48:25 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:46 -!- pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:48:58 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 18:51:32 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 18:55:24 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:03 good day, schemers 19:01:44 Heya! 19:02:42 zanes [~zane@wall.tripitinc.com] has joined #scheme 19:04:04 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@196-215-109-176.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:10:50 -!- parolang [~kevin@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:25 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-169-135-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:20 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 19:13:25 pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 19:13:49 hey hey 19:23:57 adarnimrod_ [~nimrod@bzq-79-177-209-98.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 19:24:36 -!- adarnimrod_ [~nimrod@bzq-79-177-209-98.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:26:13 erjiang_ [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 19:28:11 -!- erjiang_ is now known as erjiang 19:30:17 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 19:32:44 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:33:55 dmv_ [~daniel@187.35.237.98] has joined #scheme 19:41:40 -!- Ruinpeople [~email@109.130.39.216] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 19:45:11 -!- dmv_ is now known as zmv 19:48:17 Ruinpeople [~nnscript@109.130.39.216] has joined #scheme 19:49:24 erjiang_ [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 19:52:05 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-0-72.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:53:12 Can anyone recommend a good introduction to partial evaluation? 19:54:28 Haskell 19:54:40 *bremner* hides 19:54:48 He said partial evaluation, not partial application. 19:54:50 bremner: Har har. 19:55:12 Riastradh: How goes life? 19:55:39 Well, I don't seem to be dead yet, which is usually a good sign. 19:56:33 Riastradh: That you consider that a good sign is good. 19:56:55 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:40 kuribas [~user@d54C2AE0B.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 20:01:47 Azuvix [~james@174-27-39-176.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 20:02:30 I'm looking for a new laptop, but I hate shopping, so I haven't made much progress. I'm trying to figure out whether HDMI and DisplayPort output ports are defective by design as I thought. 20:03:12 I read your laptop requirements; at least you were thorough. 20:03:30 You did? Where did you come across them? Did I mention them here? 20:03:47 -!- zmv [~daniel@187.35.237.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:11 Your blag. 20:04:25 blig? 20:04:30 blug 20:04:40 that's what I thought. 20:04:40 carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:05:00 Oh, I see. I didn't know anybody read that. 20:05:27 Riastradh: why do you have both a blag and a blog? :( 20:05:40 I have a laptop that has a DisplayPort on it (Lenovo Thinkpad T500) that I use regularly with an Apple HD Display. I have no real complaints about the device. 20:05:44 What makes you think I have both? 20:06:20 oh, blog.txt is a 301 20:06:40 Kinda. 20:06:43 jewel_ [~jewel@196-215-16-138.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:06:53 I read Riastradh's with my family in the living room on a 42" tv 20:06:56 fwiw, I am typing on a Lenovo X201i, which I like very much, although it is missing your DVD-drive requirement 20:07:18 -!- Azuvix [~james@174-27-39-176.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:07:20 it has VGA out, though 20:07:23 the battery life is nearly 12 hours 20:07:30 9 with the radio on and light CPU load 20:07:49 Riastradh: I take it the mac is not an option? 20:07:52 it's something like $1k 20:08:34 he has a monetary requirement too? 20:09:52 "Price: at most $2000." 20:10:29 why is hdmi a showstopper? 20:10:30 it's really light and linux supports it perfectly... no idea about netbsd 20:10:42 erjiang_: I think because of the included DRM features? 20:10:55 oh, and it has a track nipple, :( 20:11:05 it works for me but only because I use a mouseless wm 20:11:26 and it also has a firmware blob for the radio 20:11:36 so you do not want this, but perhaps something from the same line 20:11:51 askhader_ [~askhader@natural-flavours.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 20:12:05 no really, why is wrong with hdmi? 20:12:24 erjiang_, right now I am trying to figure out whether it is. Currently, my understanding is that just about any digital video output port (DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort -- though not VGA) is likely to have some hardware included that does HDCP or DPCP or something, but that turning it on requires some secret magic incantation that no free software operating system is going to know about. 20:12:55 Riastradh: If you are wondering about a Thinkpad, ask in #netbsd. There were a few people there the other day who are using one. yukonbob and ahoka, iirc 20:12:58 -!- askhader_ [~askhader@natural-flavours.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:05 Riastradh: is it a requirement to be able to turn it on? 20:13:08 a thinkpad is what I have 20:13:09 Previously, my understanding was that HDMI and DisplayPort output ports would always behave defectively by design. 20:13:57 erjiang_, turn on the defect by design? Are you serious? No, I don't want to pay at all for any hardware that is defective by design. 20:14:31 It's sad that the majority of laptops include that kind of cruft, or at least undocumented hardware 20:14:42 Riastradh: So, the problem here is that the capability *exists*, not that it has any bearing on the functionality you need? 20:14:56 erjiang_, `capability' is the wrong word! 20:15:06 uncapability ;) 20:15:56 It's a bug: HDCP is a standard for deliberate hardware failure that wouldn't happen without HDCP or similar. It serves no other purpose than to fail. 20:16:37 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-219.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:16:38 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-219.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:16:50 That's why I don't want to pay for any hardware that contributes to it, and why I'm reading a little more about it (and DisplayPort with DPCP) to see what I am likely to be paying for if I get a laptop with HDMI or DisplayPort out. 20:18:15 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@196-215-16-138.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:18:43 But my current understanding is that (a) most DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort, &c., transmitters will contain some hardware for talking HDCP; however, (b) turning on the extra failures requires incanting some secret magic that no free software operating system will know about. 20:19:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:19:22 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:21:28 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 20:22:04 I certainly consider Thinkpads to be imperfect machines at best; I just have not found better alternatives in the same price range. 20:22:54 I like track sticks, though. 20:23:30 Yes, right now I am looking at a few Thinkpads. The T60p and W500 look pretty plausible, but they're not made any longer. Most of the others seem to have screens that are unreasonably large for their resolutions (tailored, presumably, to watching `HD' video, rather than, say, reading PDFs). 20:24:12 Indeed, you have to get the upgraded screens if you want to get a decent resolution. 20:24:49 *DerGuteMoritz* has a T61 and would recommend it mostly, too 20:24:53 I assume you have examined the System76 machines? 20:25:08 No, arcfide. 20:25:25 I haven't done enough research, because, as I said, I hate shopping. 20:26:00 clearly, he just needs to design and build his own laptop from scratch 20:26:58 The System76 machines tend to be the most recommended Linux friendly laptops (they only come with Ubuntu), but?*shrug*. 20:27:08 also Lemote ;-) 20:27:14 *Teapot* recommends Lemote Yeeloong ;) 20:27:20 right, heh 20:27:59 Riastradh: DVI does not do HDCP. 20:28:22 I was looking at the Lemote Yeeloong, too, and the Genesi MX Smartbook. 20:29:13 wingo, citation, please. As I understand it, the HDCP authentication protocol (and encryption) works over DVI, which is electrically identical to HDMI (except in that the latter also supports audio). 20:29:30 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:31:09 I can vouch for converting HDMI to DVI with a cable anyway 20:31:49 I would not consider a laptop with as small a screen as the Lemote Yeeloong. 20:31:59 Riastradh: i could be mistaken, but i had never heard of anything hdcp-related in dvi until googling it just now, and i do dvi capture stuff at work... 20:32:05 a weak citation, that. 20:33:45 f8l [~f8l@87-205-27-57.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #scheme 20:35:01 maybe it's just a dvd player and television set thing, not a computer and monitor thing 20:35:12 hdcp is not mandatory for dvi. 20:35:19 wingo, OK. My two questions are: (a) Do current DVI/HDMI/&c. output ports have any hardware (and include any associated licence fees) for doing HDCP? (I think so.) (b) Is said hardware going to be enabled automatically, irrespective of what the operating system requests? (I think not.) 20:35:57 -!- erjiang_ [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:35:58 my (ignorant) understanding is the same as yours 20:36:05 (Also, I don't think there are any laptops made any longer with vanilla DVI out. Some have VGA out, but I think anything that electrically does DVI does it through HDMI.) 20:41:07 -!- Ruinpeople [~nnscript@109.130.39.216] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 20:42:27 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:44:32 Ruinpeople [~nnscript@109.130.39.216] has joined #scheme 20:46:26 I clarified the display resolution constraints. Unfortunately, in so doing I have probably just made them impossible to satisfy these days. 20:49:37 (The Thinkpad T60, T60p, T61p, and W500 can satisfy them, but they're no longer made.) 20:50:35 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:51:11 X201i! 20:51:52 langmart` [~user@exeuntknx.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 20:52:25 If it had an optical drive I'd consider it. 20:52:29 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:40 you can get a docking station or an external drive :) 20:52:44 *wingo* on an X61 20:53:08 Iommi [~Iommi@86.Red-81-38-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:53:13 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:53:22 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:53:23 Riastradh: what are the constraints? 20:53:35 MichaelRaskin: 20:53:48 Hi. 20:54:28 parolang [~kevin@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 20:54:43 -!- Ruinpeople [~nnscript@109.130.39.216] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 20:56:01 OK, my laptop tangentially fails in resolution (high-quality 1920x1080 15.6'') and completely fails battery life requirement 20:56:15 What laptop is it? 20:56:44 Asus N53JN-SZ074V 20:57:18 Most N53JNs have 1366x768 20:57:26 -!- langmart` [~user@exeuntknx.tva.gov] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:57:54 erjiang [~erjiang@140-182-208-64.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 20:58:54 -!- parolang [~kevin@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:05 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 20:59:28 Yikes. 1366x768 is hardly more space than my 12", seven-year-old PowerBook has, at 1024x768. If the display is any larger than my PowerBook's 12" display, it had better actually fit more lines of text. 21:00:27 Increasing the physical size of the display to something obscene such as 15" without significantly increasing the information that can fit on it is pretty ridiculous... 21:01:34 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:38 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:51 I think it's pretty much like you said, Riastradh, it's movies-oriented. even macbook pros had more resolution before, and they actually lowered it on the new ones 21:02:07 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 21:03:22 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 21:03:33 I think someone needs to sell developer-orientated laptops, not entertainment-orientated ones. 21:03:58 Riastradh: Mine has 1920x1080 21:04:17 cky: that's one of my business ideas 21:04:27 parolang [~kevin@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 21:04:49 I found that split-screen gives me 2 windows side-by-side with >80 columns when using quite relaxed font size 21:04:55 rien_: Make sure it allows free software, blob-free BIOS too. :-P 21:05:07 rien_: I look forward to writing a Scheme-based BIOS. :-P 21:05:42 Actually, it is an interesting question whether you can just replace most of the BIOS with GRUB.. 21:05:55 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:55 i'm pretty happy with 1024x600 :) 21:06:23 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:06:40 MichaelRaskin: I can have two vims side by side with 80+ columns with a lot less resolution than that and I believe a 12pt font 21:06:40 you can always plug in a 19:6 monitor and rotate it 90 degrees to get some row space 21:07:02 aoh: wrong 21:07:27 You assume being at a table in a place where you spend a lot of time 21:08:17 that's why i like the small screen size, makes the laptop actually portable enough to carry around 21:08:19 plus, what does 19:6 have to do with resolution? 21:09:08 I don't know how you people can be happy at resolutions like 1024x600... I recently upgraded to side-by-side 1920x1080 monitors at home, and now my side-by-side 1280x1024s at work seem too small. I could have an array of six 30-inch HD monitors, and if I got a seventh, I'd never be able to live without it. 21:09:16 rien_, you can fit a nice xterm to 1080x1920 screen 21:09:17 rien_: that was more about physical screen size 21:09:35 oh ok 21:09:50 carleastlund: how many monitors are you up to so far? 21:10:00 I wanna have a nice setup like that when I move 21:10:25 I'm a poor graduate student, so just the two. Once I get a real job, I will probably be wallpapering my room with monitors. 21:10:58 nice. are you using them landscape or portrait? (for lack of better description) 21:11:02 I get lost in large screens, and reading text wider than eighty columns is painful. 21:11:12 And having a high resolution means I can choose font size based solely on physical size of the symbols 21:12:35 -!- pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:12:40 So I am mostly happy with a 12" 1024x768 screen. However, having more than 768 rows would make typeset documents more legible at the same physical size, and having 1200 rows would probably suffice to fit a typeset document legibly and entirely within the screen. 21:12:55 21:13:07 21:13:15 pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 21:13:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-219.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:13:29 arcfide: are you sending blank messages? 21:14:38 rien_, only if you count whitespace as blank 21:14:43 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-219.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:16:59 right. non-printable 21:17:28 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-182-207-181.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [] 21:18:21 Ruinpeople [~nnscript@109.130.39.216] has joined #scheme 21:22:52 -!- drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:55 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 21:28:19 pytho [8cb693ee@gateway/web/freenode/ip.140.182.147.238] has joined #scheme 21:30:04 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@mobile-166-137-140-144.mycingular.net] has joined #scheme 21:37:56 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C2AE0B.access.telenet.be] has left #scheme 21:43:41 rien_: landscape, so one wide column across my desk. Riastradh: I don't read text wider than eighty columns, I just have six separate Emacs buffers across the screens, each 80 wide. 21:44:29 #laptops :) 21:45:16 awesome 21:45:18 "one wide column across my desk"... okay, so let's pretend I know what "column" means, and used a more appropriate word there :) 21:45:37 a horizontal column 21:45:58 or, in street parlance, a "row" 21:47:03 yes but we're fancy 21:56:49 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 22:06:06 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@mobile-166-137-140-144.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:07:03 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:40 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:08:59 -!- f8l [~f8l@87-205-27-57.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 22:11:14 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:15:37 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@140-182-208-64.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:16:46 rien_: Whoops, while I was away, the toddler decided to type. 22:17:02 ah :) 22:19:13 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:19:46 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 22:26:26 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:34:13 erjiang [~erjiang@140-182-208-64.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 22:34:18 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:34:54 -!- Iommi [~Iommi@86.Red-81-38-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:39:04 Can letrec be transformed into something without letrec? 22:39:11 Like let => lambda? 22:39:33 erjiang: yes, but not efficiently 22:39:47 wingo: what's the inefficient way? 22:40:13 see the "fixing letrec" paper by dybvig and (i believe) waddell 22:40:36 also note that letrec in r5rs and letrec in r6rs are different :0 22:40:55 wingo: good reminder thanks 22:41:33 wingo: do you mean the fixing letrec "reloaded" paper by dybvig and ghuloum? 22:42:05 schmir [~schmir@p54A90EE5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:42:09 apparently that one is for r6rs, nevermind 22:42:11 erjiang: i mean the original one 22:44:11 hmm, I can't find a convenient pdf of fixing letrec at the moment 22:44:58 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/fixing-letrec.pdf 22:44:58 wow, I spoke too soon again. It's on dybvig's page 22:45:04 :) 22:45:32 we should mention the name "sarkar" as well. there. it is done. 22:45:54 Iommi [~Iommi@86.Red-81-38-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:49:28 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:05 -!- phao [phao@189.107.236.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:38 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 22:58:05 phao [phao@189.107.252.17] has joined #scheme 22:58:52 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@140-182-208-64.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:46 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:05:46 groovy2shoes [~guv@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme 23:07:28 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90EE5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:44 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:14 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 23:12:13 -!- pytho [8cb693ee@gateway/web/freenode/ip.140.182.147.238] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:12:22 -!- phao [phao@189.107.252.17] has quit [Quit: Fui embora] 23:13:00 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:13:41 schmir [~schmir@p54A90EE5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:15:25 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 23:16:21 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90EE5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:25 icbh [~icbh@ntszok033003.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:24:34 Is there specific idiom for dealing with lists, lists of lists, list of lists of lists, etc ? This seems to be isomorfic to tensors. 23:25:56 If you need to deal with tensors, you should probably implement a tensor abstraction over vectors rather than lists. 23:26:18 _danb_ [~user@124-169-135-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 23:26:52 Specifically, it is a bad idea to use indices to work with lists, since such accesses are O(n). 23:29:56 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 23:33:52 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:36:50 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 23:38:05 bweaver` [~user@host-68-169-158-230.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 23:40:35 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:41:44 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:28 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@mobile-166-137-140-144.mycingular.net] has joined #scheme 23:45:00 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has joined #scheme 23:48:34 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:48 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-39-176.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 23:52:48 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has joined #scheme 23:58:15 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]