00:00:59 does anyone know of any interfaces or implementations of crypt(3) in scheme? 00:06:58 -!- dunkel^ [~fafj@e177099222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Hast du die Tür zu gemacht oder ist da dunkel?] 00:11:14 Goodness! What on earth do you want that for? 00:13:14 i want it to use to generate tripcodes 00:13:39 i would be doing one call max on average 00:13:58 Tripcodes? 00:14:39 they're a form of authentication without registration, used on sites like futaba channel or 4chan 00:16:09 meltingwax: if you have any sort of an FFI, it's probably easier and more reliable to simply _call_ crypt(3) 00:16:20 otherwise you're writing crypto code, which is particularly tricky 00:17:47 offby1, do you know how to use Git branches? 00:17:49 offby1: thats what i'd have to fall back to, but i'd like to keep this portable if possible 00:18:01 Riastradh: sure 00:18:11 offby1, OK, how do you do it? I can't figure it out. 00:19:10 Authentication without registration? What proposition are you proving by authenticating, then? 00:19:59 Riastradh: what do you want to do with a branch? 00:20:41 Nick_Marshall [~yura@109.87.91.223] has joined #scheme 00:20:49 offby1, well, what can I do with a branch? 00:20:59 make commits on it. 00:21:07 look at its history. 00:21:10 check it out. 00:21:31 push it to another machine. 00:21:44 merge another branch into it (although this is just a special case of "make commits on it") 00:22:57 Riastradh: This might help: http://tartley.com/?p=1267 ;-) 00:23:15 OK, so I did `git clone git://frobozz/mumble'. I know there's a branch in the mumble repository called `foo' in a particular state, which state I might refer to as the `current commit'. (I am not sure whether the term `HEAD' is right for this commit.) This entails a tree and a history. How do I look at the tree and history? 00:23:49 -!- Nick_Marshall [~yura@109.87.91.223] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23:59 "git checkout foo" ought to do it 00:24:12 then "ls" to look at the tree :) 00:24:17 "git log" to look at the history 00:24:29 I'm a fan of "gitk". 00:24:36 It's quite ugly, but useful. 00:24:38 Like git itself. 00:24:39 Hold on a moment. As an aside: How do I do `git pull' in a bare repository? 00:25:20 `git pull' itself doesn't work. But `git push' does, and I don't understand the difference between `git pull' and `git push' except for orientation. 00:26:31 well, "git pull" is actually "git fetch" + "git merge". 00:26:47 The latter won't work in a bare repo, since there'd be the risk of a merge conflict, with no way to resolve it. 00:26:51 But "git fetch" should work fine. 00:26:52 I know that. But `git fetch' doesn't seem to do what I want. It doesn't seem to update the HEADs or something. 00:27:05 it doesn't update any local branches, that's for sure. 00:27:11 again because of the risk of a merge conflict. 00:27:19 My usual git advice: general-purpose git advice: 1) Read "Git For Computer Scientists" (http://eagain.net/articles/git-for-computer-scientists/); 2) Run "gitk --all"; 3) Learn about "git reflog" 00:27:26 #3 isn't relevant to you ... yet ... :) 00:27:31 Maybe I should be more precise. There is a remote repository git://frotz/mumle.git. How do I make a local mirror of it and update it? 00:27:38 well ... 00:27:49 "mirror" is a technical term, which may not mean what you think it means :) 00:28:08 if you just want to do the ordinary thing of getting a working tree, so that you can hack on "mumble", then 'git clone' is the right thing. 00:28:15 How do I make ~/mumble.git look just like git://frotz/mumble.git looked at the time I ran `git please-update-my-mumbles'? 00:28:15 (without "--bare".) 00:28:42 _if_ the source is itself bare, then "git clone --bare" will do that. 00:28:43 I don't want a non-bare (clothed?) repository because it takes up a lot more space. 00:28:49 ok 00:29:11 I already did `git clone --bare git://frotz/mumble.git' to get ~/mumble.git, but somebody committed something over in frotzland, and I want to reflect the update locally. 00:29:20 ah 00:29:25 "git remote update" ought to do it. 00:29:32 actually "git fetch" ought to do it too 00:29:42 what makes you think it's not doing the right thing? 00:30:01 I'm guessing you plan on refreshing your mirror every now and then. 00:30:22 I'm also guessing that you created the mirror mostly as a cache, since connecting to the original git://frotz/mumble.git is expensive in some way 00:34:02 Well, for one thing, `git fetch' doesn't work, because it doesn't know where to fetch from, and I don't know how to tell it permanently. If I run `git fetch git://frotz/mumble.git', then it seems to fetch something, but doesn't tell me what it fetched (like `git pull' does), and the output of `git log' doesn't change. 00:35:07 ah. 00:35:15 man git-remote 00:35:18 well, I wouldn't expect the output of "git log" to change, since it's starting at HEAD. 00:35:23 so try "git remote update" 00:35:26 that doesn't need arguments 00:35:51 now, "git log remotes/frotz" should indeed reflect the new stuff that you just fetched. 00:35:53 And yes: I created the mirror as a cache, because frotzland is far away, in intertube distances, from Riastradhland. 00:36:00 good 00:36:24 `git remote update' didn't say anything, and the output of `git log' hasn't changed. 00:37:07 Basically, I want to update mumble.git so that it is just as if I had repeated `git clone --bare git://frotz/mumble.git'. 00:38:02 I suspect you're already there, but simply can't tell. 00:38:08 have you run 'gitk --all' yet? 00:38:16 I don't have a gitk. 00:38:24 try "git log --graph --all" 00:39:14 in fact, try ``git log --graph --all --pretty=oneline --abbrev-commit --decorate -10'' 00:39:17 yes, that's a mouthful 00:39:26 `git log --graph --all' shows me a tree-oriented version of the output of `git log'. It doesn't seem to differ in content. 00:39:34 now, that's disappointing. 00:39:46 that suggests that you really _haven't_ gotten all the data. 00:39:51 I tried running `git log remotes/frotz' in the vain hope that it would tell me what sensible arguments I can pass in the place of `remotes/frotz', but it didn't. What am I supposed to pass? 00:40:04 not sure what you mean. 00:40:12 remotes/frotz is a perfectly sensible argument. 00:40:36 % git log 'remotes/frotz' 00:40:36 fatal: ambiguous argument 'remotes/frotz': unknown revision or path not in the w 00:40:36 orking tree. 00:40:42 uh 00:40:53 hmph 00:41:04 so do "find .git/refs -type f" :) 00:41:08 `frotz', of course, is a metasyntactic variable. But I don't know what to replace it by in the real instance. 00:41:09 or rather 00:41:13 "find refs -type f" :) 00:41:27 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:41:28 Nothing there. 00:41:32 ?! 00:41:39 is there even a directory named "refs"? 00:41:44 Yes, there is. 00:41:52 but it's got no files under it? 00:41:55 It has two subdirectories, heads and tags, both empty. 00:41:59 *offby1* is thinking about a shared console session 00:42:12 I'm making a mirror myself as we speak 00:42:27 whaddya know, me too 00:42:59 hmm 00:43:13 OK. Forget that tangent, then. I'll worry about it some other time. I just wanted to avoid having a checked-out copy of all the files, but I'll live with it. 00:43:24 Back to branches. 00:43:45 ok 00:43:54 So, how do I see what branches there are? 00:43:57 (I suspect your refs are hiding in "packed-refs") 00:44:02 "git branch -a" lists 'em all 00:44:08 I ran `git branch', and it showed me far fewer answers than I expected. 00:44:19 I ran `git branch -a', and it still showed me far fewer answers than I expected. 00:44:21 my mirror has exactly one branch, and one ref: refs/heads/master 00:44:23 yep 00:44:26 just that one, I'm guessing 00:44:47 lemme try cloning a repo that I know has a bunch of branches. 00:44:51 Oh, let me clarify: I am now using a non-bare repository. In other words, I did `git clone git://frotz/mumble.git && cd mumble'. 00:44:56 oh 00:45:06 well, you'll only get one _local_ branch in that case -- probably "master" 00:45:48 Right. 00:46:13 But I know that git://frotz/mumble.git has a lot more branches, and I thought they would be included in the clone. 00:46:31 They are, unless those "branches" somehow are not branches, but are separate repositories. 00:46:45 These are real branches, not separate repositories. 00:46:53 Hmm. 00:47:27 (The person who made the upstream repository is not a Darcshead like me.) 00:48:49 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/203667/12811HrC.txt <-- my "git branch -a" output 00:49:26 the repo from which I cloned only had two local branches, "master" and "partner-lead". 00:49:49 it probably had a whole bunch of _remote_ branches, but cloning doesn't copy those. 00:49:57 ("clone" is a TERRIBLE name for this operation, by the way.) 00:49:58 (By the way, I looked at the `Git for computer scientists' article, and I remember that it didn't actually help me to use Git or understand what the various Git commands do. I already know the abstract overview of the structure of a Git repository; actually doing anything to it with the `git' utility is what troubles me.) 00:50:10 You and everyone else. 00:50:30 Here's what I see: 00:50:30 * master remotes/origin/HEAD -> origin/master remotes/origin/master 00:50:31 Um, that was supposed to be three separate lines. 00:50:37 's ok 00:50:49 so, the repo from which you cloned had just one local branch: master. 00:51:36 How do I get at the actual honest real branches that were in the remote repository? 00:51:49 dunno what you mean by "real" :) 00:51:52 there's local, and remote. 00:52:01 if you want them all, then --mirror was the right thing. 00:52:15 And I still think you got them, but I never told you the right place to look for them. 00:52:29 look in the "packed-refs" file, or use the "git for-each-ref" command. 00:52:46 although "git branch -a" _should_ show them all. 00:52:47 Oho! So I wanted to do `git clone --mirror git://frotz/mumble.git' a long time ago. But that implies --bare. I'm working in a non-bare repository now. 00:53:25 if your goal is to have a cache, and to always have that cache reflect all the branches of the source (without having to add and remove those branches manually), then --mirror is the way to go. 00:53:59 note that this is strikes me as somewhat unusual; unless that link is _really_ slow, you shouldn't suffer by doing things the normal way. 00:54:04 s/is// 00:56:35 I am very confused. I'm getting several different answers to `git branch -a' in several different repositories that *should* be approximately identical. 00:56:43 I'm going to start over in a moment. 00:57:35 As an aside: The reason I want ~/mumble.git is that I frequently botch operations on my Git repositories, at which point I give up, blow away the entire repository, and clone it afresh. Cloning from ~/mumble.git on the local disk is much faster than cloning from a remote repository over the network. 00:57:35 alas, Mrs Offby1 wants to take a walk, so I'm outta here 00:59:10 qhe [~qhe2@192.55.54.36] has joined #scheme 00:59:33 how can convert something like #"5d41402abc4b2a76b9719d911017c592" to a string? 01:03:27 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.153.27] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:04:19 bitweiler [~bitweiler@adsl-99-40-239-167.dsl.stl2mo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:54 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:04 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci] 01:06:17 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-66.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:06:59 meltingwax, if you're talking about Racket, perhaps look for a procedure named BYTES->STRING or something. 01:08:00 Jafet1 [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 01:08:20 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-39-176.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:08:23 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:08:40 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-66.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:08:57 Are there any other Git wizards handy? I have finally managed to list what branches are available, and now I want to try to do something with them. 01:09:10 Riastradh: thanks 01:22:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:38:48 Riastradh: I'm back 01:38:56 how'd you get the list? 01:50:35 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:00:23 copumpkin [~pumpkin@user-142hbak.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 02:00:23 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@user-142hbak.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:00:23 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 02:01:40 offby1, `git branch -a'. I don't know what I was doing wrong earlier. It certainly *wasn't* mistyping `git branch -a', but maybe Git was tired and shagged out after a long squawk and therefore felt unwilling to respond for the moment. 02:02:00 Now I can't reproduce the output I pasted earlier. 02:04:33 Okay, if you want to check out a specific branch, just use git checkout. 02:04:55 *fds* is satisfied now; only British people say `shagged out'. 02:05:06 Alternatively, if you don't need to check it out, but just want to, say, look at its revision log, you can specify the branch directly in "git log" without needing to check it out first. 02:05:28 fds: :-D 02:07:31 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:02 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:11:08 *cky* is no git wizard, but uses it at work enough to do a few basic things with it. :-) 02:12:20 monoid_: Any luck with your infix macro? ;-) 02:12:35 I figured out how to do it for binary only. 02:12:44 monoid_: Well, my one is binary-only too. 02:12:49 So, you're doing well! 02:12:54 indeed :P 02:13:23 However, implementing associativity and precedence is far far harder than it looks. 02:13:35 Yes, it is. 02:13:55 probably why list has used prefix notation all these years 02:14:00 offby1: Quite. 02:14:38 Smalltalk has no precedence and no associativity and it uses infix notation 02:14:42 er, "lisp" 02:14:42 jcowan [~John@70.44.233.84.res-cmts.bus.ptd.net] has joined #scheme 02:14:48 1 + 2 * 3 in Smalltalk is 9 02:14:51 offby1: List, Lisp, what's the difference. :-P 02:14:51 rien: ugh 02:15:01 rien: That's just wrong. 02:15:07 list, listp, what's the difference 02:15:15 Not implementing associativity and precendence would be a bad move 02:15:15 it's very right, actually :) 02:15:19 lithp, fithp, what'th the differenth 02:15:32 especially since the end result needs to be appealing to mathematicians. 02:15:41 Also, 3 + 4 is 9. 02:15:44 (in Smalltalk, I mean) 02:15:49 ?? 02:15:50 or at the very least math monkeys. 02:15:58 how is 3 + 4 9? 02:16:13 If 3 + 4 is 9, nothing works. 02:16:17 It's in one of the Smalltalk books, rien. Go read it! 02:16:46 I think it's the one titled `Bits of history; words of advice'. I forget what colour its cover is. 02:17:07 (It's not the blue book.) 02:17:17 It's "If 3 + 4 works, everything works", and it's the green book. 02:17:59 Does anyone know how to debug a state machine? 02:18:19 Riastradh: was that a joke? 02:18:33 jcowan, that sounds like a trap question. 02:18:39 Not at all. 02:18:54 I have a state machine, and I'm trying to debug it, and I only have an unreliable set of test cases. 02:19:06 Someone's going to answer "oh, I know how to debug state machines!" and then you'll be all "you just pulled three weeks of kitchen patrol, sucker!" 02:19:09 That is, the "fail" cases should fail, but not all of the "pass" cases should pass. 02:19:18 Oh. Hm. 02:19:31 I am perfectly serious that it is in one of the Smalltalk books, rien. 02:19:51 jcowan, that's an awfully general question... 02:20:00 Riastradh: You are imperfectly in error: that is, you have remembered the 3+4, but somehow injected the bogus 9. 02:20:15 Riastradh: that's crazy. I just did 3 + 4 in Pharo and of course it came out 7 :) 02:20:43 jcowan, I did not inject the 9. I shall fetch my copy of the book forthwith to confirm. 02:20:51 Please do. 02:21:03 I remember it as "If 3 + 4 works, everything works", which makes much more sense. 02:21:51 That is, if you can get a window going, type 3 + 4 into it, see them echoed, select them, choose "Print it", and get back 7, your Smalltalk is fully functional. 02:22:04 Also, after trying other languages (Java, C, Python, Haskell, Go), I know why Paul Graham never shuts up about lisp. 02:22:30 It is the green book, _Bits of History, Words of Advice_, on page 57. 02:22:38 jcowan: that's just what I did right now in Pharo 02:22:46 maybe that's a misprint, Riastradh ? 02:23:00 It's basically the closest I've gotten to a direct brain-to-computer interface. 02:23:18 monoid_: any specific code snippet that made you realize that? 02:23:26 Anyhow, I have written a state machine to parse MicroXML, a subset of XML. 02:23:38 I assure you it is no misprint. 02:23:41 I have test cases for full XML; that is, both well-formed and not-well-formed documents. 02:23:59 Well, my copy is a few hundred miles away, so I can't confirm it. 02:24:18 how can you assure me it's not a misprint? you can only do that if after "9" there's a "(yes, nine)" 02:24:33 The joke would be entirely lost if the 9 were misprinted as a 7. 02:24:47 The parser rejects all the not-well-formed documents, and rejects a fraction of the well-formed documents, but I do not know if it rejects the correct one. It's a bootstrap problem. 02:25:01 rien: probably when I realized that composing the basic functional functions (like map, reduce, etc..) are a sufficiently high enough abstraction for looping. 02:25:23 And you can use macros to just develop a "for i in x" loop which directly substitutes to that. 02:25:32 After that, I was just "woah" 02:25:44 Riastradh: The line to which I was referring is on page 74 02:25:58 monoid_: so you mean you wrote a macro to say "for i in x" in terms of map, filter and/or fold? 02:26:03 What's some text (not embedded in an image) from p. 57? 02:26:06 yes 02:26:41 Page 57 is almost entirely an image; it's the title page of a chapter. 02:26:46 jcowan, are the test cases which it incorrectly fails relatively few? 02:26:59 Alas, no, about 40% 02:27:13 it's probably not that impressive, but I haven't developed any serious algorithm in lisp yet. 02:27:24 and "incorrectly fails" is inapt, it's "fails, perhaps correctly and perhaps not" 02:27:42 that is, the failure may result from a bug, or from the document not being in the subset the parser accepts. 02:27:47 Hm. 02:27:53 I'd run through the state machine by hand, and modify the machine implementation of it to print the states as it passes them. 02:28:09 mostly just algorithmic challenges from either project euler or just thinking "what if I implemented this today". 02:28:16 monoid_: it would be impressive for me since I don't know how to write macros yet 02:28:21 oic 02:28:40 Riastradh, oh man... I did that this week while debugging a parsing problem: 29 megs of output, 1.9GiB of state transition logs. 02:29:02 Riastradh, I had to pipe the logging through gzip to fit into the disk quota which was available to me on the system in question. 02:29:27 Riastradh, that eventually led to me finding the problem, though, and now it ticks along just about perfectly. Very satisfying. 02:29:33 Also, in terms of languages, the one I probably know best is Haskell, since that's the one where I built my largest project in (a text editor). 02:29:49 When you say `megs', do you mean `megabytes', or `mebibytes'? This is important to my assessment of whether what you were doing was totally insane or merely mildly insane. 02:30:07 uh huh 02:30:10 *offby1* backs away slowly 02:30:41 Riastradh, it was totally insane. And it was 29 mebibytes. 02:31:10 (it involved parsing the output of something produced by, I kid you not, a PDP-11) 02:31:27 (I can't bring myself to pronounce `kibibytes' or that nonsense. It always comes out as `kitty kibble' and then I can't keep my face straight enough to correct it.) 02:31:31 *offby1* turns up his hearing aid 02:31:48 ((I think we'll have to double-parenthesize, offby1's listening in)) 02:31:54 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:15 Riastradh, hey, speaking of kitty kibble, whatever happened to that holography table that the cats kept defiling? 02:33:05 It was scattered to the winds long ago. The former frame rotted in a basement somewhere for a while; I don't know where it is now. 02:33:27 Ah, the way of all things. 02:33:43 That is: first, fouled by felines, then forgotten by history. 02:33:48 what's that "foreign pointer object" that map-file-to-memory wants from me? 02:34:54 I need help getting that function to work, it takes way too many parameters :) 02:34:55 rien, you have to find a pointer to somewhere in France, or, judging by your good-for-nothing nickname, perhaps Spain instead. Are there any Spanish Schemers here who can lend rien a pointer into their address spaces? 02:35:14 *offby1* would have guessed France 02:35:18 rien is French :) 02:35:37 What, is nothing French? How can that be? They are all over the place. 02:35:49 I don't regret a thing 02:35:51 the existentialists invented it 02:35:57 (We must speak by the card, or equivocation will undo us.) 02:36:06 rien, some things are French! 02:36:07 people! focus! 02:36:13 "rien is French" is a very general statement. 02:36:19 (define l '(3 + 4)) 02:36:27 my nickname is what I was referring to. 02:36:48 Of course. We were just abusing you. 02:36:57 Wait, is rien a bot? 02:37:08 That would be bot abuse. 02:37:09 All conversations in #scheme eventually degenerate to bot abuse, after all. 02:37:31 rudybot: (define l '(3 + 4)) 02:37:32 I wasn't abusing nuthin'! (This sentence makes more sense in French, of course, where double negatives are natural.) 02:37:32 monoid_: your sandbox is ready 02:37:32 monoid_: Done. 02:37:59 they're natural in English, too 02:38:06 They are natural in English too. Only artificial dialects of English avoid them, in imitation of Classical Latin, an artificial dialect which likewise avoided them. 02:38:08 rudybot: (equal? + (list-ref l 1)) 02:38:08 monoid_: ; Value: #f 02:38:13 No, they aren't. :-P 02:38:22 Why is that? 02:38:55 monoid_: because (3 + 4) is not 1 02:39:05 the first is a list of three elements; the second is a number 02:39:31 I didn't pass (3 + 4), I passed the plus symbol. 02:39:40 can anyone help me with map-file-to-memory? 02:39:44 oh sorry, I misread 02:39:51 Right, plus symbol is not the addition procedure. 02:40:00 yeah 02:40:08 Oh, so I should reference it by '+ 02:40:12 rudybot: (equal? '+ +) 02:40:13 *offby1: ; Value: #f 02:40:31 rudybot: (equal? (list-ref `(3 ,+ 4) 1) +) 02:40:31 *offby1: ; Value: #t 02:44:56 Also, what are the advantages of using let instead of define while nested in a function? 02:45:23 monoid_, one format will spark off more arguments about style. 02:45:36 What I meant is that double negatives have the insensible meaning in French that would make my sentence work, sort of. 02:45:40 English is happy with a much more sensible interpretation of double negatives. 02:46:04 oh great, another religious belief 02:46:52 rien, perhaps. What Scheme system are you using? What are you trying to do with MAP-FILE-TO-MEMORY? What exactly did you type, what exactly did you see, and what exactly did you expect to see? 02:47:18 monoid_, in general, if you choose to use LET rather than internal DEFINEs, you'll incite fewer fistfights. 02:48:03 Riastradh: hold on I think I found an example 02:48:55 gnomon: noted 02:50:48 Bah. 02:51:32 *jcowan* discovers grep -L and a great light breaks over the land. 02:53:04 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:53:05 I think I have discovered this switch before, but my steel-trap memory has grown rusty. 02:55:08 what good is --files-without-match ? 02:55:34 Absolutely nuthin'. Say it again, hunh! 02:56:28 rien: It easily determines which files parsed without error, rather than having to mess with ls and comm. 02:56:56 jcowan, comm(1)? Truly? I think you're the first person I've heard who has chosen to use that in anger. 02:56:57 hmm 02:57:04 I use it all the time 02:57:46 Yes, but you also use paleolithic text editors and other esoteria. 02:57:47 It's set difference and set intersection. 02:57:49 True. 02:57:58 ...not that there's anything wrong with that. 02:58:05 In this case, it has been telling me, given a list of failing cases and a list of all cases, what are the passing cases. 02:58:14 But grep -L will tell me the passing cases directly, hurrah! 02:58:49 I tried to use comm for a while and found it easier just to use diff. 03:00:20 Diff presents me with too much cruft. 03:00:46 Granted, it is annoying to remember to tell comm what you *don't* want, rather than what you do. 03:09:27 *foof* uses comm every so often 03:10:44 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:18:19 Also join(1) quite frequently. 03:19:12 join(1) and paste(1) are often quite surprisingly useful. 03:19:56 I don't think I've ever used paste(1). 03:20:56 I don't think I've ever _heard_ of it 03:21:19 xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-sjocbnoknjmfefcq] has joined #scheme 03:21:53 Crikey! 03:22:19 Bling@ 03:22:21 ! 03:23:55 paste(1) is particularly useful if your AS400 programmer has created extracts containing all the data you need, but spread across a dozen different files, and if she/he/it/ver/they bill(s) by the hour. 03:24:03 I mean, speaking hypothetically. 03:24:56 -!- emma is now known as em 03:25:49 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:12 -!- tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:37:07 Or if your nemesis^Wcow-orker just likes to use cut(1) to befuddle you. 03:44:09 Oh noes! I ork cows! 03:48:53 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 03:49:26 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:50:58 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:49 timj_ [~timj@e176193235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:56:34 -!- timj [~timj@e176196005.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:08:24 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:47:00 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:49:24 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:58:01 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 05:03:57 -!- jcowan [~John@70.44.233.84.res-cmts.bus.ptd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:04:36 harishtella [~harishtel@118.172.49.44.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #scheme 05:06:40 -!- harishtella [~harishtel@118.172.49.44.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has left #scheme 05:14:24 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:15:51 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:16:15 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:18:14 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:19:32 nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 05:22:30 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 05:25:30 -!- nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:51:52 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:04:09 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-112.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:07:32 -!- bitweiler [~bitweiler@adsl-99-40-239-167.dsl.stl2mo.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 06:11:42 Prometheus_ [~heyy@129-97-220-237.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 06:13:40 nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 06:23:24 -!- nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:26:42 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:28:15 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:29:05 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.243.22] has left #scheme 06:35:12 hey is anyone around? I really need some help. 06:36:12 Nope. But if you ask your question, perhaps someone will spontaneously materialize to help you. 06:38:28 http://pastebin.com/CNd9dQsw this is my code 06:38:49 in the (course counter method) 06:38:56 I have a cond that goes like: (= (counter courses) (max-num courses)) 06:39:27 i use counter to tell me the number of marks above an 80 in one element of the list 06:39:43 and max-num to tell me the greatest # of marks in an element, throughout the list 06:39:50 and compare them 06:40:02 if I call the function max-num, it will give me the correct max 06:40:23 the PROBLEM is that when I call max-num after I use a filter 06:40:27 it does not work 06:43:32 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 06:44:20 In one breath you have written (counter courses), and in another you have written (map counter courses), for the same value of COURSES. In the definition of the procedure COURSE, is COURSES a list of course-result objects, to each element of which you can apply COUNTER; or is it a course-result object itself, to which you can apply COUNTER? 06:46:36 Consider, perhaps, using different variable names; you have used the name COURSES for several different things. 06:53:36 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #scheme 06:54:03 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.82.17] has joined #scheme 06:54:03 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.82.17] has quit [Changing host] 06:54:03 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 07:00:09 hm 07:00:37 I think I have to rewrite a bunch of stuff 07:00:47 sighh 07:04:08 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-31.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 07:06:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-112.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:16:07 is there a comprehensive time and date library for scheme? 07:16:43 srfi/19 ? 07:18:18 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-19/srfi-19.html 07:18:51 yes, only more comprehensive ;) 07:21:42 What precisely are you looking for, ecraven? 07:23:14 (Parts of SRFI 19 fail to make sense (e.g., the notion of a `time type' which might not be a duration, leading to such nonsense as the TIME-TAI vs TIME-UTC time types), but it does cover a good range of concepts.) 07:24:22 something like "calendrical calculations" by reingold and dershowitz (that one is for common lisp, but could probably easily be ported. i've been thinking about doing that, if there isn't an alternative). 07:25:36 vinnana [~pkensche@cmbipc58.cmbi.umcn.nl] has joined #scheme 07:26:14 Oh, are you asking about non-Gregorian calendars? 07:27:04 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #scheme 07:31:07 dunkel^ [~fafj@e177099222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 07:31:22 hi 07:31:49 I have to use racket, but I hope someone might help me here 07:31:54 I've got a list of lists xs. can I somehow use list*/for with these lists as arguments? 07:31:59 or any other hint on how to implement the cross product with such an xs as argument? 07:36:25 -!- mathk_ [~mathk@194.177.61.25] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 07:36:49 Riastradh: not only, also more extended calculations on gregorian calendars (including equinoxes, solstices, moon phases, etc.) 07:38:41 sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 07:41:59 rmrfchik [~rmrfchik@linuxhacker.ru] has joined #scheme 07:42:43 -!- pyro- [~pyro@unaffiliated/purplepanda] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:47:20 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 08:00:00 -!- vinnana [~pkensche@cmbipc58.cmbi.umcn.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:49 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:08:48 -!- dunkel^ [~fafj@e177099222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:21:00 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 08:24:00 hey if I want to compare the original argument to an argument that I modified, how would I do that? 08:24:16 like the input 08:39:33 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:40:31 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 08:42:10 nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 08:45:17 Prometheus_: argument of what? 08:45:42 the main function 08:46:02 i dont think its possible since racket is functional programming 08:46:10 but i rly hope it is :S 08:47:08 Prometheus_: assign it to a local variable and compare it? 08:47:15 I don't see the problem 08:47:38 how would I do that 08:47:49 with the let form 08:48:17 Prometheus_: can you post the code you have to paste.lisp.org ? 08:48:38 ok 08:49:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118727 08:50:11 in this method 08:50:12 (define (max-num courses) 08:50:13 (foldr max 0 (map counter courses))) 08:50:27 I need 'courses' to be the original input 08:50:35 its not atm which is why it errors 08:56:59 the courses in the map? 08:57:07 yeah 08:57:31 Well you are shadowing it by naming your parameter the same 08:57:49 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 08:58:07 what does that mean lol 08:58:30 you do have a parameter called courses in most-As right? 08:58:48 you also have a parameter by the same name for the max-num procedure 08:59:24 that means that whatever you call max-num with it will be called 'courses' making the original 'courses' unreachable 08:59:53 :o 09:01:06 I've changed the name of courses in max-num to something else 09:01:11 not used 09:01:12 same error 09:01:22 which error 09:01:28 nvm 09:01:38 I cannot know you never told me 09:02:27 map: expects type as 2nd argument, given: (make-new-course-struct "CS115" 3); other arguments were: function:counter 09:03:02 if i call max-num as the main function it gives me 3, which I want 09:03:13 but when I call it from the filter it does not 09:03:59 does the (map struct-convert courses) return the result you expect? 09:04:28 you would need a list of lists 09:05:06 because filter will take a list pass each element to max-num which in turn uses map which expects a list... 09:05:40 it returns what I would expect, yes 09:06:06 it's a list of lists? 09:06:10 using filter on (map struct-convert courses) does not do anything thought 09:06:19 a list of structures 09:06:30 well that's wrong for your code as it is 09:07:04 the error is caused by the map not getting a list 09:07:15 and in the chain it is the map in max-num 09:07:32 in the chain? 09:07:34 because the map struct-convert gets you a list of records 09:07:47 then each element of this list is passed to max-num by filter 09:07:58 which then takes a record and trys to map it 09:08:06 evaluate in on paper and you will see 09:08:12 (or manually in the REPL) 09:09:21 hmm 09:11:50 I suggest you pull out the local definitions for testing so you can see what each of those procedures returns 09:15:47 geh this bloody filter.. 09:16:04 it is just a special form of map 09:16:12 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:16:17 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:16:20 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 09:16:59 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #scheme 09:18:58 alright 09:19:28 learnt something today then lol 09:21:07 how would I take the maximum number from a listof new-course-struct ? 09:21:28 maximum at-least-80 that is 09:23:22 by sorting the list and taking the first element for example 09:24:03 -!- sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:11 any other methods? 09:26:52 I'm trying to use (foldr max 0 (map counter courses)) 09:27:29 like in the code I pasted 09:27:46 why would it work outside the local but not in the local o.O 09:29:17 as I said, it gets a list outside but not inside 09:29:43 but why 09:30:10 courses shoudlnt change values 09:35:17 -!- nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:40 Prometheus_: did you already talk about the substitution model of evaluation in class? 09:38:10 I think so 09:38:29 not sure actually 09:39:05 try to evaluate the forms by yourself 09:39:34 I just use the step tool 09:40:16 then you should see that the courses inside the procedure when you reach max-num cannot be the same 09:40:21 than the one outside 09:41:21 its 4:40 am and I know what the problem, but not how to fix it >.< 09:41:30 problem is* 09:44:25 I mean I appreciate your help but am moving no where 09:49:26 Prometheus_: then a break and some sleep is best I guess 09:49:50 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:50:13 yeah I guess I have too 09:50:30 worked on this for like 8 hours lul xD 09:51:38 -!- xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-sjocbnoknjmfefcq] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:52:48 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 09:56:21 -!- Prometheus_ [~heyy@129-97-220-237.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Night!] 09:56:49 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58:38 -!- qhe [~qhe2@192.55.54.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59:25 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 10:04:38 f8l [~f8l@77-255-12-39.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #scheme 10:06:05 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:06:19 sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 10:13:48 -!- timj_ is now known as timj 10:14:20 -!- f8l [~f8l@77-255-12-39.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 10:21:56 accel [~accel@unaffiliated/accel] has joined #scheme 10:22:08 besides continuations, what does scheme ahve that ocaml lacks? (ocaml can do macros via the camlp4) 10:22:42 it's really not that comparable 10:22:52 well, ocaml lacks eval too I guess 10:22:55 I mean they're both functional languages 10:22:55 why not? 10:23:01 that allow you to mutate state 10:23:05 but they're really very, very different 10:23:09 how so? 10:23:15 so erm, what can an apple do that an orange can't?:P 10:23:23 make apple juice 10:23:29 well, scheme is LISP. the whole syntax is lisp based 10:23:33 sorry, list based 10:23:39 yes, with the cons/car/cdrs 10:23:42 which makes the macros more powerful IMO 10:23:51 *accel* thinks 10:24:01 well, if you can manipulate AST 10:24:08 it has almost no syntax, really. which makes it really flexibile 10:24:13 i don't see why that's less powerful than manipulating lists 10:24:15 it's dynamically typed 10:24:22 compared to C, we can say: scheme has closures, C does not 10:24:31 compared to ocaml, I'm not sure what it misses 10:24:39 I mean I quite like ocaml 10:24:50 i ask this since I used to be a bi scheme fan 10:24:58 but as proejcts get bigger, I feel like I actually want the restrictiosn of typing 10:25:03 especaially when dealign with other people's code 10:25:11 yeah, I generally prefer static typing 10:25:24 if you can point me to a scheme with static typing; I'd be happy too :-) 10:25:33 but I prefer schemes lack of syntax/everything is a list to ocamls syntax and infix stuff 10:25:37 typed racket 10:25:42 is it fast? 10:25:46 i've heard it alot 10:25:47 not too sure 10:25:49 but i heard plt is a mess 10:25:50 doubt it's ocaml fast 10:25:53 nah 10:25:57 plt is onto it IMO 10:26:04 onto what? 10:26:11 onto it, it's a phrase 10:26:13 on the ball? 10:26:18 as in "plt source is readable" ? 10:26:46 nono 10:26:58 they know what they're doing 10:27:00 is what I mean 10:27:03 ah 10:27:09 so imho, the main advantage of scheme 10:27:11 is the eas to build DSL's 10:27:18 however, if I can build DSL's in camlp4 10:27:30 I find scheme easier than ocaml (am learning both) 10:27:30 then the question is: do I want my DSL to get statically compiled down to (1) ocaml or (2) scheme? 10:27:44 and I feel like since (1) I want it to be fast and (2) I want static typing, ocaml wins on both fronts 10:28:01 i.e. if ocaml didnt has camlp4, and I couldn't build DSLs, then scheme wins the "more expressive game" 10:28:13 but if I can buidl DSls in camlp4, and compile it down to ocaml, why scheme at all? 10:28:42 because it's a more programmable programming language:) 10:28:56 I am not too sure tbh, like I said I am just learning both 10:29:04 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:29:11 have yet to start using camlp4. I sincerly doubt it's as powerful as scheme though 10:29:12 *accel* looks around for a scheme wizard to defend scheme's honor 10:29:15 -!- sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:29:17 ha 10:29:34 i've used scheme macros .... and pretty much any turing complete langauge is as powerful as it 10:29:40 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 10:30:07 huh? 10:30:17 macros is basically 10:30:24 scheme prog -> macro -> scheme prog 10:34:43 nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 10:52:22 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 11:04:05 sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 11:05:35 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:06:19 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #scheme 11:07:00 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 11:19:20 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:19:21 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:20:30 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:46 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21:50 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-66.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22:28 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-66.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:25:23 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:00 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 11:26:30 Riastradh: how can i customize how a record is displayed/disclosed in mit-scheme? 11:28:18 Can anyone parse or explain the rules for how syntax-rules are expanded in R5RS/R6RS to explain whether chicken not supporting this is a bug? http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2011-01/msg00078.html 11:32:19 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:33:18 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:33:53 Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 11:33:53 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 11:33:53 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 11:36:11 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:37:36 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:39:00 alvatar [~alvatar@227.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 11:51:19 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:54 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:52:24 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:57 -!- kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:59:11 kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 12:06:41 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:07:54 also, is there a way to automatically generate .info (or any other kind of) documentation from annotated mit-scheme code? 12:08:26 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 12:16:53 -!- bremner [~bremner@2607:f128:42:87:216:3eff:fe26:9e28] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:17:46 bremner [~bremner@yantan.tethera.net] has joined #scheme 12:21:11 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:23:51 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:24:50 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 12:25:23 Cagliari71m [~SpAzIo@dynamic-adsl-78-15-193-116.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 12:25:34 -!- Cagliari71m [~SpAzIo@dynamic-adsl-78-15-193-116.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #scheme 12:27:26 f8l [~f8l@77-255-12-39.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #scheme 12:29:16 hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:30:38 -!- sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:33:39 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:33:55 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 12:34:44 masm [~masm@bl19-153-27.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:35:14 -!- accel [~accel@unaffiliated/accel] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:39:29 -!- Caleb-- [~caleb@bzq-109-66-201-149.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [] 12:40:28 -!- tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:52:44 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 13:08:17 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:05 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 13:17:11 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 13:27:00 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:37:28 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 13:45:30 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 13:48:20 nsswb [~nsswb@ip-80-113-5-247.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #scheme 13:50:25 -!- nsswb [~nsswb@ip-80-113-5-247.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:55:19 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfd2fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:55:31 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-5f768bee.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 14:01:59 sjamaan: I cannot speak definitively (it seems only Riastradh can), but that looks more like exploiting a quirk of psyntax than a valid syntax-rules macro. 14:02:23 Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too 14:02:26 sjamaan: I wonder what other non-psyntax implementations one can test this on, just to see. 14:02:32 Gauche and Scheme48 fail on it 14:02:36 *nods* 14:02:41 But Chicken uses Scheme48's implementation 14:04:30 As far as I understand the R5RS (and again, I have not read this exhaustively), the template in this case can contain "a ..." or "b ...". In this case, "(list ##) ..." does not fit that. 14:05:00 I don't grok the wording in R5RS 14:05:17 To my mind, it doesn't fully capture the behaviour we know from typical implementations 14:05:27 Unless of course _everyone_ extends the standard behaviour 14:05:54 Well, many implementations use psyntax, so I'd consider those implementation a separate class of implementations, as far as this is concerned. 14:06:26 eg, ((_ a b ...) (list (a b) ...)) is allowed AFAIK 14:06:47 Hmmm. 14:07:02 I believe it's also widely used 14:07:07 I'll also have a look at the R6RS to see if it says anything different. 14:07:26 Rewriting LET to LAMBDA requires this, if I'm not mistaken 14:07:42 Well, in that case, that's easy: 14:07:49 I just look at the definition of LET in R5RS. 14:09:51 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-83-125.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:10:30 Okay, it expands ((name val) ...) to (name ...) and (val ...) separately. 14:10:36 So, that is allowed, at least. 14:10:49 But that's different from what that poster is trying to do. 14:10:51 yup 14:11:11 But I can't even extract _that_ behaviour from the syntax-rules description in R5 14:11:18 It's too damn terse 14:11:28 Okay, I'll see if I can pick it apart a little. :-) 14:11:36 Thanks :) 14:11:44 :-) 14:11:59 I hope foof or alaricsp or anyone else from WG1 is reading along and taking notes :) 14:13:21 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-5-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:15:25 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-83-125.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:19:48 user17 [~user@p5B2A8592.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 14:21:04 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@227.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:24:22 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 14:36:43 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-23-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 14:49:18 -!- f8l [~f8l@77-255-12-39.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: See you.] 14:49:28 sjamaan: "Pattern variables that occur in subpatterns followed by one or more instances of the identifier ... are allowed only in subtemplates that are followed by as many instances of .... They are replaced in the output by all of the subforms they match in the input, distributed as indicated. It is an error if the output cannot be built up as specified." 14:50:18 sjamaan: I interpret that to mean, if you have something like ((foo bar baz) ...) in the pattern, the the template must have (at least, in R6RS's case) three ... instances. 14:50:39 (Above quote is from R5RS; R6RS has different wording.) 14:51:06 Ah, I see 14:52:20 I could be misinterpreting things, though. 14:52:27 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 14:53:07 phao [~phao@189.107.243.22] has joined #scheme 14:53:48 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-218-205.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:58:26 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-70-8.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 15:18:49 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 15:24:33 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-119.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:26:07 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-110-125.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:27:07 thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has joined #scheme 15:32:44 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has left #scheme 15:32:58 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 15:34:14 Eh? What? Wassup? 15:34:25 *alaricsp* looks around blearily for WG1-related stuff 15:35:13 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-31.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:35:14 Hrm, syntax-rules 15:35:18 alaricsp: It's about that syntax-rules bug report by Emmanuel Medernach, which was posted to chicken-users by Mario 15:35:34 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-31.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 15:35:42 There's a few proposals for "common tidyings-up of syntax-rules edge cases", IIRC... looking... 15:35:46 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:58 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:16 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/ticket/9 might be related; I find syntax-rules a bit mind-bending, to be honest! 15:37:37 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #scheme 15:38:20 Tail patterns are a different issue. See also http://bugs.call-cc.org/ticket/379 15:58:34 drdo` [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has joined #scheme 15:59:09 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:59:12 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 16:04:03 alvatar [~alvatar@227.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:07:16 ecraven, if you're using DEFINE-RECORD-TYPE, you can use the SET-RECORD-TYPE-UNPARSER-METHOD! procedure. If you're using DEFINE-STRUCTURE, you can use the PRINT-PROCEDURE option. 16:14:31 mwolfe [~mwolfe@corona.cornerturn.com] has joined #scheme 16:14:38 There's nothing ambiguous, or error-prone, about transforming (foo (a ...) (b ...)) into (zot (a b ...) ...), but it violates the sentence `Pattern variables that occur in subpatterns followed by one or more instances of the identifier ``...'' are allowed only in subtemplates that are followed by as many instances of ``...''.': in the pattern, b is followed by one `...', but in the template, it is followed by two. 16:15:33 (There is something potentially ambiguous or error-prone about transforming (foo (a ...) (b ...)) into (foo (a b) ...), even though it doesn't violate that rule. Some Scheme systems let you do this; I don't know whether any reject it.) 16:20:48 (Another cute trick which turns out to be spottily supported is transforming (foo (a ...) ...) into (foo a ... ...). Whether this is kosher by the specification is a little fuzzier: one could weasel about with the term `followed by', perhaps.) 16:28:38 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:41:41 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.243.22] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:44:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:46:34 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #scheme 16:47:08 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-23-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:19 -!- nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:40 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:48 Can I use square brackets in scheme macros? 16:50:56 <_p4bl0> monoid_: I think square brackets are interpreted as parentheses at the reader level, so I'd say yes 16:50:57 monoid_: In R6RS, yes. In R5RS, no (unless your implementation supports it). 16:51:12 oh good 16:51:14 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:51:15 <_p4bl0> cky: am I right ? 16:51:33 _p4bl0: Right, for those specific implementations that treat [] like (). 16:51:46 _p4bl0: (i.e., R6RS ones, plus some others.) 16:51:58 <_p4bl0> cky: okay, thanks 16:52:17 :-) 16:55:18 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:35 cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:03:59 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-119.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:27 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-119.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 17:06:05 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-31.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:09:50 Is there any implementation of scheme that handles Unicode well? 17:11:05 as in, it's possible to use unicode identifiers? 17:11:28 racket does 17:13:06 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-112.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:18:34 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 17:19:10 -!- emma_ is now known as em 17:19:16 monoid_: gambit too 17:21:19 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-23-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 17:22:43 phao [~phao@189.107.243.22] has joined #scheme 17:22:59 -!- hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:23:31 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:44 Actually chicken can use utf-8 17:28:00 Something else caused the segmentation fault in my code. 17:28:44 Which is good, since now I can write ( x dx) instead of (integral x dx) 17:29:16 -!- yorick is now known as yorick_ 17:29:25 -!- yorick_ is now known as yorick 17:29:34 *mario-goulart* imagines the fun of grepping code with  17:29:53 -!- yorick is now known as yorick_ 17:30:01 Segfault? That sounds like a pretty serious bug in Chicken. 17:30:05 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:30:38 I'm trying to determine if it's the compiler/interpreter or me. 17:30:56 Since defining functions with  worked, but I'm not sure if macros with  worked 17:31:03 I'll try it now. 17:31:43 -!- yorick_ is now known as yorick 17:32:23 Nevermind, there isn't a problem 17:32:34 something else definitely caused the segfault 17:32:53 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:33:07 rudybot: (define-syntax  (syntax-rules () (( a ...) '(a ...)))) 17:33:08 monoid_: Done. 17:33:28 Unless you're doing something obviously sketchy (e.g., using the FFI insufficiently carefully), it's a serious bug in Chicken if you can elicit a segfault in it. 17:33:36 rudybot: ( x dx) 17:33:36 monoid_: ; Value: (x dx) 17:33:51 Riastradh: I'll reproduce it and submit a bug report. 17:36:59 yup, found the code that did it 17:37:51 What triggers it? 17:37:58 monoid_: What optimisation level are you using? Anything above 3 invokes nasal demons if you do invalid things. 17:38:01 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:14 e.g., calling CAR on a non-pair, calling functions with the wrong numbers of arguments, etc. 17:40:16 cky: none; this happened in the interpreter (csi) 17:40:25 Huh. 17:41:44 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 17:48:00 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:19 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.243.22] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:52:41 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:57:39 phao [~phao@189.107.187.170] has joined #scheme 18:01:27 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:58 If you're running code from an egg that uses the FFI, then a bug in the FFI usage there (or in the C code) can also cause segfaults and the like 18:07:01 If you need help tracking it down, come and ask in #chicken! 18:08:27 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-23-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:00 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.187.170] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:12:32 bitweiler [~bitweiler@adsl-99-40-239-167.dsl.stl2mo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:16:14 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:20 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 18:18:39 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:56 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-218.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 18:20:10 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 18:24:21 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:26:03 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:26:57 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #scheme 18:27:04 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:10 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:44:30 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:45:10 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:50:13 f8l [~f8l@77-255-12-39.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #scheme 18:50:40 kuribas [~user@94-226-138-116.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 18:57:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-112.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:06 rudybot: (define-syntax  19:14:06 monoid_: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 19:14:06 (syntax rules () 19:14:06 (( x ...) '(x ...)))) 19:14:31 (define-syntax  19:14:31 (syntax rules () 19:14:31 (( x ...) '(x ...))))) 19:14:44 rudybot: (define-syntax  19:14:44 monoid_: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 19:14:45 (syntax rules () 19:14:45 (( x ...) '(x ...))))) 19:16:18 monoid_: It's gotta be all in one line. 19:16:47 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 19:18:08 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:18:08 ah 19:18:10 thanks 19:19:02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaJckcCZtBQ 19:20:14 wtf is that 19:20:30 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:20:46 a (imo) hilarious parody of fiddler on the roof. 19:22:21 samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:25:28 monoid_: Can you update your Chicken version? 19:25:42 I get 19:25:42 Error: during expansion of (syntax ...) - in `syntax' - unexpected object: (syntax rules () ((|| x ...) (quote (x ...)))) 19:25:42 yes 19:25:47 (4.6.0) 19:26:05 oh crap 19:26:08 It's a space 19:26:14 I just installed the one in the ubuntu repository (4.2.0) 19:26:37 Now I get the proper response 19:26:38 #;2> ( x ^2 + x + 1 dx) 19:26:38 (x ^2 + x + 1 dx) 19:26:47 Ubuntu should be ashamed 19:26:53 4.2.0 is really old 19:27:01 I see 19:27:18 4.5.0 also works without giving a segfault 19:27:22 I'll download a newer version. 19:27:26 Sorry, 4.4.0 19:27:31 4.5.0 probably also :) 19:30:36 (I also sent an email to Mario Goulart, who's apparently responsible for handling bugs) 19:31:49 monoid_: I'm actually responsible for creating bug tracker accounts. :-) 19:31:56 :) 19:32:01 *mario-goulart* reads bugs.call-cc.org 19:32:23 *sjamaan* wonders if there are saner ways to handle this 19:32:47 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable198.178-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 19:32:52 Self-registration maybe 19:32:52 oh, then I sent it to the guy who maintains the bug tracker accounts :P 19:32:56 haha 19:33:15 monoid_: that's no problem at all. 19:33:24 But then self-registration opens the door for spammers again 19:33:43 I was just wondering if the note @ bugs.call-cc.org is not clear. It's the second bug report I get in one week. 19:34:08 Coincidence, I'd say. Never happened before. 19:34:15 Probably 19:34:36 which r6rs interpreters/compilers are available for all of freebsd, linux and windows? 19:34:54 heh 19:35:00 Racket comes to mind 19:35:21 racket is the short answer. i want more 19:35:52 http://racket-lang.org 19:35:53 There aren't a huge number of r6rs implementations in the first place 19:35:59 teurastaja: Chez. 19:36:08 teurastaja: http://www.r6rs.org/implementations.html 19:36:13 ikarus, I think. and larceny 19:36:15 hez is proprietary 19:36:21 *chez 19:36:25 teurastaja: You didn't mention that in your criteria. 19:36:37 i dont want to pay for a license 19:36:38 cky: I'm impressed they provide binaries for freebsd 19:36:57 lol binaries are called packages in freebsd 19:37:32 the source code installation automation system is named ports system 19:37:42 teurastaja: Okay. Petite Chez is proprietary but gratis. 19:37:53 freebsd can run just about any linux program 19:37:57 That too. 19:38:27 the linux emulation layer is simply magnificient 19:38:30 teurastaja: That's true, but from cky's reply I understood it has native binaries. Maybe I jumped to conclusions 19:38:48 choas [~lars@p578F6659.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:38:59 Also, ports can be made for binary-only software, but those binaries have to be produced by someone in the first place 19:39:30 sjamaan: I'm given to understand that the FreeBSD version is native. 19:39:33 *sjamaan* uses NetBSD with pkgsrc, which works similarly 19:39:44 sjamaan: arcfide uses an OpenBSD-native version of Chez. 19:39:49 As far as I know, anyway. 19:39:50 freebsd development focuses on systems for manipulating systems, not bloated applications, but there are about 23000 ports available, and it automates everything 19:40:07 cky: funky 19:40:22 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:40:28 Funny enough, there is no NetBSD version. 19:40:30 teurastaja: Hold the commercials for someone who's interested 19:40:35 pkgsrc is based on the freebsd ports system 19:40:45 I guess you just have to use either the FreeBSD, OpenBSD, or Linux versions. 19:40:47 cky: Not surprised. NetBSD is the underdog 19:41:05 yeah sorry.... misunderstandings make me want to clarify things 19:41:13 Yeah. I wonder if NetBSD made the right move in kicking Theo out all those years ago. ;-) 19:41:24 Oh they made the right move alright :) 19:41:27 Hahahahaha. 19:41:38 Lots of people leaving openbsd because of him 19:41:51 but to make it clear: most interaction between bsds is mutual support 19:42:01 It is 19:42:11 each has its strength, all win from collaborating 19:42:14 Or friendly competition 19:42:51 netbsd didnt kick theo. freebsd did 19:43:00 but i dont think he was kicked 19:43:04 Please brush up on your history 19:43:18 It was netbsd, and he got his commit access revoked and then left 19:43:43 He has (or used to have, at least) this whole mail exchange on his personal homepage 19:44:11 youre not talking about the dragonflybsd? 19:44:18 *... founder 19:44:21 No, that's Matt Dillon 19:44:27 damn\ 19:44:29 sry 19:44:30 He indeed stepped out of the freebsd community 19:44:37 Voluntarily, to work on HAMMER 19:44:45 not just hammer 19:44:47 And everything surrounding it 19:44:48 Isn't Matt Dillon an actor? 19:44:50 yeah 19:45:10 mario-goulart: That too. The developer has a link on his website or something "I'm not *that* Matt Dillon" 19:45:17 :) 19:45:27 :-) 19:45:35 but i find it sad that dragonflybsd doesnt contribute more to the others 19:45:50 Actually, they are contributing a lot to pkgsrc now 19:46:15 They use it as their official packaging system now, I think because FreeBSD ports is too FreeBSD-specific 19:46:23 will they integrate hammer somewhere else? 19:46:33 Maybe, when it's done :) 19:47:39 if you want abstraction: netbsd, clearness of code and doc: openbsd, support: freebsd 19:48:06 And if you want to be pwned: OS X. *grins, ducks, and runs* 19:48:13 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:25 teurastaja: openbsd has strong documentation? 19:48:31 Interesting 19:48:36 if you want to be stupidly happy forever: windows 19:48:41 sjamaan: Apparently OpenBSD has a policy of writing manpages for everything. 19:48:42 heh! 19:48:46 cky: Cool! 19:49:00 yes openbsd is very sharp on docs 19:49:28 In net they're okay but not being kept up to date as well 19:49:31 I <3 BSD manpages much much more than Linux manpages, mostly for religious reasons. 19:49:39 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:49:42 In short: -mdoc >> -man. 19:50:01 I always write my manpages using -mdoc, even when Linux is the primary deployment environment. :-P 19:50:02 I always thought freebsd was the most keen on docs, because of their freebsd books and the handbook and such 19:50:08 but a lot of doc is in the filesystem 19:50:08 I like *BSD better than *nix also for religious reasons: BSD license >> GPL :) 19:50:16 :) 19:50:18 rien: Nice. :-) 19:50:34 cky: french? 19:50:36 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 19:50:37 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-128-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:50:58 teurastaja: Nope; what makes you ask that? 19:51:43 if you want standards to be adopted: go for bsdl. if you want a closed circle of development: go linux 19:52:22 by closed i mean closed to everyone else 19:52:44 thats not how things are going to change 19:53:22 cky: just expressions 19:54:04 If you want things working, go shopping. 19:55:14 anyways, the point is, freebsd has lots of scheme ports, fedora has lots of rpms and debs but windows has a jungle. which scheme shall unify them all? 19:56:17 One in javascript, of course. 19:58:29 eh... scheme in javascript?? 19:58:51 i heard of scheme to javascript, but "IN"?? 19:58:55 Works on windows, linux, and *BSD. 19:59:06 mario-goulart: yeay shopping! 19:59:10 I want a pony 19:59:13 -!- f8l is now known as w8l 19:59:36 lets just say i can trade javascripts portability for more performance 20:00:09 how the hell is scheme implemented in javascript? 20:01:36 since r6rs is seldom complied, what is the future of scheme? 20:02:02 theyre working on r7rs right? 20:03:21 is the language actually splitting? 20:03:28 i want all the gory details 20:04:14 cky: Do you use OS X? 20:04:20 there are the r6rs-discuss list archives 20:04:53 .... hundreds of monologues to skim through? 20:05:13 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-40-237.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:05:34 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-119.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:05:45 teurastaja: well what did you want for an answer? 20:06:45 its a good answer. i was hoping for a daybriefing but ill do without it 20:07:18 I'd like a scheme compiler that uses c-- for the intermediate language, à la Haskell 20:07:26 teurastaja: tldr; there is a new standard comming up, split in two parts, a small core language and part 2 libraries 20:08:18 monoid_: there are some, the most prominent being chicken scheme->c gambit (?) 20:08:52 monoid_: why does it have to be c--? 20:08:57 currently I use chicken scheme, but it uses plain old C for a backend. 20:09:01 and not just C for instance? 20:09:02 -!- cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:23 cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:09:33 C-- has features that make tail calls, garbage collection, and exception handling easier. 20:09:38 heh I mistook the -- not to be part of the token :) 20:09:48 sorry 20:09:54 c-keen: np 20:10:05 monoid_: but the compilers for c--, are there as many as there are for C, and are they everywhere? 20:10:29 -!- drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:10:42 rien: well Haskell uses it, so I'm assuming that every architecture that haskell supports C-- also supports 20:11:10 monoid_: LLVM is the new hotness in that regad 20:11:12 granted, it's probably not as widespread as C, but it's pretty widespread 20:11:23 also, C-- is not a standard 20:11:23 oh ok. I don't really understand the pros and cons of using c or c--, except for what you said that sounds pretty good, but otherwise C is indeed everywhere so that's one advantage 20:11:38 there are several related compiler target languages called C-- 20:11:57 based on compiling to a minimal subset of C any C compiler should accept 20:12:22 yeah but the c-- haskell uses is not a subset of C 20:12:31 right, it's gcc-extended 20:12:39 and gets mangled by the Evil Mangler 20:13:09 monoid_: Currently, I use Linux. Years ago, I used OpenBSD a lot. I have never used OS X as my regular OS. 20:13:44 ah I see. 20:13:53 OpenBSD is really annoying to use as a desktop machine at this point 20:14:02 heck, it's annoying to use as a server at this point 20:14:27 it still works nice for embedded device you want to be fairly high securit 20:14:28 y 20:14:51 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-23-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:15:34 I was wondering because I'm trying to get people not to use OS X. 20:15:55 or iOS for that matter 20:16:22 heck, I use OS X and I don't really want to keep using it at this point 20:16:38 not because it's not nice, but because I think I see the writing on the wall 20:17:43 what's that, Adamant ? 20:18:08 rien: imagine an App Store stomping on programmer's faces. forever. 20:18:33 they already have Mac App Store at this point 20:18:52 the question is simply on the over-under until they restrict app install to that 20:19:30 yeah, it's basically inevitable that they're going to coerce users into using the app store for the OS X. 20:19:42 I don't think the app store poses much threat 20:20:06 I'll keep using OS X until they ruin it, because it's the best desktop unix I've ever seen 20:20:08 I do. the only mitigation is that MS is still very developer-friendly and can smack them with it 20:20:41 rien: I agree, but if they go for the App Store only approach, they will have ruined it 20:20:57 yes 20:20:58 rien: the problem with OS X is that, while it is very pretty, you don't really own the software. 20:21:07 yes and no 20:21:35 well, apple's mixed source, so you own the free parts of it, but don't own the proprietary parts of it. 20:21:40 the core is open source, Cocoa and Carbon and a few other things aren't 20:21:42 right 20:22:23 I'm yet to install the update that brings the app store 20:22:28 my coworker already did it 20:22:36 I believe good things will come from it 20:22:43 sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:44 schmir [~schmir@p54A9129D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:22:44 and I'm no optimist, mind you 20:22:48 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:22:52 sure, but it will be baked into the next version of OS X 20:23:05 I don't. it doesn't really do anything I want 20:23:11 it does what Apple wants. 20:23:43 it's good for developers 20:23:50 rien: also, an os with proprietary components could install spying software. Like skype in the PRC. 20:24:03 Mac software doesn't have a real problem with user-installed malware yet, and there are already independent methods to keep your programs up to date 20:24:07 rien: not really 20:24:28 it's good for developers that want to make money while living under the thumb of Apple 20:24:28 http://www.upiasia.com/Human_Rights/2008/10/03/china_spies_on_skype_users/3041/ 20:24:29 ?? 20:24:37 monoid_: I find that is a weak argument against proprietary software, but I see your point. it doesn't sway me, though. 20:25:14 it is a weak argument. the more compelling argument is I bought a general purpose computing machine and I should be able to run whatever programs on it I damn well please 20:25:50 you can run whatever programs you want in it 20:25:54 it's bad enough we have what are effectively general purpose pocket computers being restricted in the smartphone market 20:26:00 rien: right, you can, for now 20:26:18 although yeah, I tend to side with free software for the property rights reason. 20:26:27 not so much out of paranoia :P 20:26:31 yes. but I really have a hard time believing apple would one say say "from now on every software can only be installed form the app store" 20:26:41 when they do that, then their OS won't be a unix anymore 20:26:51 rien: that's what people said before the App Store on iPhone 20:26:52 and I'll have no more reasons to use it 20:26:54 -!- cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 20:27:04 actually their os will still be a unix because it's posix compliant 20:28:01 also, at this point, independent Mac developers are getting a 100% cut of their earnings 20:28:35 they're going to go down to a 70% share, which may be worth it if they get increased exposure 20:29:00 for programs that are already best of breed and at a reasonable price point, i seriously doubt there will be much benefit 20:30:03 Adamant: you're completely right there, on both counts. 20:30:37 monoid_: I'm pretty sure the unix specification says that for it to be a unix it has to allow arbitrary programs to be installed, or something to that effect 20:33:29 rien: currently the single unix specification talks about basic C libraries, system interfaces, and kind of shell must be installed, but nothing on installing arbitrary programs 20:33:40 I could be wrong though or I might've missed something 20:34:44 monoid_: maybe you're right and I just wish you were wrong, for the sake of me :) 20:34:53 heh 20:45:56 monoid_: I have no desire to use any Apple products, so, no danger there. :-P 20:46:30 cky: good to hear. :P 20:46:47 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A9129D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:47:08 monoid_: I plan to only use free software OSs on my computer. Currently, this means Linux, and maybe a few years from now, or when I have Copious Free Time, I might be running an OS I write myself. Who knows. 20:47:36 speaking of which 20:48:20 one of my goals is to write the gnu operating system as envisioned-- that is, essentially a lisp machine with a small C core. 20:48:33 Why "small C core"? Why not Lisp core? 20:49:01 I want to write a Scheme OS, where _everything_ is written in Scheme. 20:49:21 well, considering how the kernel and bootloader needs to make low-level calls, I don't know how feasible it is to write a 100% scheme OS. 20:49:27 *need 20:49:35 Very, if you make your compiler support the necessary trapdoors. 20:49:51 I have a friend who wrote a fully-managed OS, in Boo. 20:50:00 then yes, a pure scheme OS would be my goal. 20:50:45 Re bootloader, the way my friend did it was to AOT-compile the bootloader code into x86 assembly. 20:51:04 So the bootloader is still written in Boo, but compiled to a form usable for bootloading. 20:51:33 Again, if you write your own compiler (or suitably adapt an open-source one), this is very doable. 20:52:20 well, good thing scheme is a very simple language. 20:52:28 Indeed. 20:52:46 In a pinch, if I can't grok other Scheme compilers, I can at least write my own one that makes adding trapdoors easy. 20:52:53 imagine writing a compiler for the context-sensitive nightmares that are C++ or Perl :P 20:52:59 Hehehehehe. 20:53:25 I'll explain to you what I mean by "makes adding trapdoors easy". So, new generations of CPUs come out with more and more interesting instructions. 20:53:43 For example, the latest one has new AES instructions. 20:54:06 I'd like to be able to write a Scheme-side library that can detect if those instructions are available, and use it if so; and otherwise fall back to software AES. 20:54:21 The mechanism to detect this, and to use it, would be implemented as trapdoors. 20:54:50 how do i get mit-scheme to macroexpand a form for me? 20:55:32 -!- tizoc [~user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:55:44 -!- inimino [~inimino@boshi.inimino.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:56:42 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:58:21 schmir [~schmir@p54A90658.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:59:56 -!- samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:01:51 tizoc [~user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 21:03:19 inimino [~inimino@boshi.inimino.org] has joined #scheme 21:03:31 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:06:08 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #scheme 21:11:01 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-218.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:11:25 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-218.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 21:17:03 femtooo [~femto@95-89-197-23-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 21:18:29 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-23-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:19:06 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:50 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:28:34 blueadept [~username@rrcs-71-41-93-226.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:29:39 -!- w8l is now known as w8d 21:30:42 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-27-243.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 21:31:17 githogori [~githogori@23.sub-75-208-232.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 21:46:47 -!- femtooo [~femto@95-89-197-23-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:20 -!- w8d is now known as f8d 21:57:08 im trying to compile mit-scheme on ubuntu and its been about 15 minutes, does it usually take a while to compile? 21:59:40 -!- choas [~lars@p578F6659.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:05:49 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 22:10:26 Depends on your machine, blueadept. 22:11:00 im beginning to find that out ha 22:15:52 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 22:17:30 It also depends on what flavour of MIT Scheme you're building. 22:17:35 Native i386? Native amd64? Portable C? 22:17:44 64 bit 22:18:05 Is that amd64, or some other 64-bit platform? 22:18:27 how can i emulate CL's DO* in Scheme? 22:18:31 intel 64 22:18:49 `Intel 64' is ambiguous. It could mean amd64, or it could mean IA-64. 22:19:57 If you're on anything but i386 or amd64, or if you're not using the native code support on them, then it will take a long time to build -- the shortest time I've seen it take is about an hour. 22:20:10 wow, ok 22:20:37 On the other hand, I have seen it take as little as five minutes or so on amd64 with native code. 22:22:52 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:23:37 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:23:55 On my development laptop, an ancient i386 Acer, it takes about thirty minutes to build Scheme (with native code). 22:24:10 yeah i got a 512 vm instance with rackspace 22:24:48 not a big deal, was just wondering what the eta might be 22:26:39 -!- f8d is now known as f8l 22:27:20 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90658.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:28:13 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci] 22:39:49 awesome, it completed, 30 minutes almost on the dot 22:39:58 later 22:39:59 -!- blueadept [~username@rrcs-71-41-93-226.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:38 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:51:21 -!- yorick [yorick@gateway/shell/shellium.org/x-kzbcystomopbwzpw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:43 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-27-243.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please!] 23:06:11 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-218.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:20:18 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:22:46 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:24:05 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:00 can someone explain this behavior to me: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118746 23:25:37 basically I don't understand why it's not evaling the function passed into function 23:28:19 I tried ,@mesg and ,mesg but neither of those eval the function it just returns errors and the code in link only returns the argument I gave to function 23:37:57 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable198.178-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:23 you want to eval `mesg' ? 23:40:58 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-227.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:41:42 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-227.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:43:26 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:43:55 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:44:54 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-227.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:45:41 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-227.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:48:47 bitweiler: shouldn't you have (f mesg) in the else? instead of mesg 23:50:39 -!- pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:51:05 -!- Checkie [25517@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:51:08 rapacity: f is a function 23:51:45 yes it is 23:53:33 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-227.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:53:36 if you do that change (s 100) returns 10 23:53:59 -!- f8l [~f8l@77-255-12-39.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: qwerty must die!] 23:55:43 rapacity: your right but, why does this work? 23:57:05 well you want to evaluate the function with the passed argument :p 23:57:14 naturally you need to call the function with the argument :p 23:57:25 *bitweiler* nods 23:57:56 *bitweiler* slaps head on desk 23:58:19 and I was trying everything but that 23:58:46 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-153-27.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]