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implementations around all seem to be LISPs. causation or correlation? 05:12:32 Been at it longest, I'd guess. 05:13:04 hrm 05:13:20 is that really true? I'd be interested to see a comparison against something like V8 05:13:25 (the google JS engine) 05:14:40 a google javascript engine? 05:14:42 that's just confusing 05:14:56 lewis1711: She means the one in Chrome, of course. 05:15:08 the whole concept is still confusing 05:15:09 jcowan: No, languages like Perl, Python, JavaScript etc. all have semantics which make optimization very difficult. 05:15:22 So does CL, though. 05:15:26 isn't javascript an implementation of a language? 05:15:36 No, it's definitely a language 05:15:39 and so google made an implementation of an implementation.. 05:15:46 yes, I mean the one in chrome 05:15:58 sorry, I'm using javascript to refer to ECMAScript 05:15:59 CL is still a lot easier to optimize than those others. 05:16:04 it is a common colloquialism 05:16:05 ECMAScript and JavaScript are synonyms, except that ECMAScript isn't trademarked. 05:16:12 Actually, the only hard part of CL is CLOS. 05:16:22 The latter also sounds like eczema. 05:16:28 oh. I thought JS to ECMAScript was like say... chicken to scheme 05:16:30 What about dynamic redefinition, foof? 05:16:44 CLOS is hard, but Gregor Kiczales already did all the hard work. 05:17:06 WP says "JavaScript is an implementation of the ECMAScript language standard", but that's not the conventional use of "implementation". 05:17:12 "Extension" or even "profile" might be more like it. 05:17:26 *nods* 05:17:43 I am not convinced that javascript is more difficult to optimize than CL 05:17:46 stupid vague english langauge 05:17:56 I tend to agree, elly. 05:17:58 *elly* kind of wants to see an implementation of sunspider or v8bench in CL or scheme, now 05:18:08 *cky* is so happy with ctrl:nocaps, just as an aside. Not because Ctrl is in the right place, but because I don't have to deal with Caps Lock any more. 05:18:33 *lewis1711* is actually happy with an old school unix editor 05:18:37 It'd be cool to port V8 to optimise Scheme, right? 05:19:01 lewis1711: ed? Cool. :-D 05:19:09 I have no idea how painful that would be, cky 05:19:10 cky: close. vim 05:19:24 elly: I want to give it a try. In my Copious Free Time. 05:19:28 yeah, == 05:19:31 lewis1711: Vim ain't old-school. 05:19:36 jcowan: All of those languages have issues with dynamic redefinition. 05:19:56 sure it is 05:20:01 Ex, that's old school. 05:20:07 jcowan: Yes. 05:20:20 lewis1711: Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, kid. 05:20:40 aren't I the same age as you?:P 05:20:49 lewis1711: No, how old are you? :-P 05:20:53 23 05:21:01 lewis1711: I'm ~30. 05:21:04 I'm fifty-two, just to break the deadlock. I *am* old school. 05:21:08 Smalltalk is another old dynamic language which gets decent performance, BTW. 05:21:10 jcowan: Woot! 05:21:13 that's hardly old enough to start calling me kid 05:21:15 :P 05:21:26 Okay, *I'll* call you 'kid'. Happy now? :-) 05:21:26 Heh. 05:21:39 jcowan: state your age! 05:21:51 lewis1711: "fifty-two" isn't an age? 05:21:55 O_o 05:22:04 never saw that 05:22:05 Because it was designed as a language, not "I want to write code which looks like *this*" followed by a single buggy reference implementation. 05:22:09 jcowan: so be it old timer ;) 05:22:23 foof: which language is that a jab at? :P 05:22:23 "Old fart" to you. 05:22:31 hahaha 05:22:34 JavaScript, definitely. 05:22:41 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 05:22:48 unlike scheme, which has several buggy implementations! :D 05:23:07 Them's fightin' words, lewis1711. :-P 05:23:14 *jcowan* has a plan to write a JavaScript:The Good Parts implementation sometime. 05:23:27 haha 05:23:37 I should learn Javascript 05:23:37 jcowan: Nice. 05:23:43 Python as well, it was designed entirely for its syntax. 05:23:46 Using Scheme syntax, of course. 05:23:56 people tell me sometimes that you don't have to remove many parts from it to get the Good Parts 05:24:03 hmm, I wonder if racket can do that white space block thing. probably not 05:24:14 elly: Indeed. Once you remove eval and with, you're almost there already. :-P 05:24:15 http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596517748 <-- very cool book 05:24:15 A syntax which encouraged the absense of closures in early implementations, and broken closures to date. 05:24:33 the closures are broken? 05:24:36 oh, in python? 05:24:36 Naah, it's just that GvR is really against closures. 05:24:40 yeah 05:24:56 cky: indeed, I have no idea what they were thinking about with 05:25:14 he's against all things functional, no? 05:25:27 Closures are subtle, and Python (and Java, for that matter) aren't meant to be subtle. 05:25:30 didn't he drop fold and some other HOFs from it? 05:25:33 "Explicit is better than implicit." 05:25:36 Dynamic redefinition of a name isn't a serious problem if the references to the name are usefully bound to its definition to begin with, provided that you are OK with slow redefinition. Example: In MIT Scheme and T, SET! on globals is extremely expensive, but calling them requires at most an unconditional, fixed-position branch, with no type checks. 05:25:52 question for you guys (try not to be too biased) - did anyone learn scheme as a fist programming language? and if so, was it hard to learn imperative C-style languages like C and Java afterwards? 05:26:11 *first programming language 05:26:20 not sure what a fist programming language would be... HADOUKEN 05:26:42 Hahahaha. 05:26:45 Nonexample: In Python and Ruby, it's not a priori obvious what meaning you're referring to when you write foo.bar(). Consequently, that usually entails a hash table lookup by name, perhaps optimized by some small linear cache indexed by foo's class. 05:27:34 That's no worse than not being a priori obvious about what meaning you're referring to when you invoke CLOS-style generic functions. 05:28:28 jcowan: python culture is almost entirely opposite to scheme, it seems. python is all "omg that's unpythonic program more like a snake", where as scheme as all "yeah just write your own static type checker lol" 05:30:55 cky: CLOS classes are much more static and tied in with the type system (e.g. slots can have type annotations), whereas in Python you can add and change the semantics of slots at runtime. 05:31:14 That is why calling a CLOS generic procedure is slower than calling a specific procedure, cky. However, CLOS is slightly different, for two reasons: (1) The name actually is bound to a particular meaning. This is what makes sealing in Dylan work. (2) Most procedures in Common Lisp and Scheme are not written to be generic. Most procedures in Python and Ruby are -- and those that aren't still usually use generic procedures or similar for slot a 05:31:22 Of course there's ISLisp, which except for dynamic typing is *extremely* static. 05:31:38 Riastradh: "for slot a"... 05:31:46 ...ccess. 05:33:05 *nods* 05:33:05 CLOS has the problem that the order of method applicability isn't statically known even if the classes are. 05:33:31 And ILOS inherits this 05:33:40 (When I say `CLOS', I mean it in the general sense, covering CLOS, Tiny-CLOS, SOS, Swindle, Dylan, &c.) 05:34:03 (Some members of this family, of course, do not perform fast, such as Tiny-CLOS.) 05:34:06 is Dylan nice? 05:35:00 The impression I've gotten is that Dylan is a bit of a twerp, even if he's been influential all over music. 05:35:32 Not as much so as T. W. Earp, though. 05:35:56 can we try that again, but with you taking the most obvious binding of that symbol instead of some other one? 05:35:59 (No relation to *the* Earps, I don't suppose.) 05:36:27 It's got a conventional non-Lisp syntax and static typing, but it's a Lisp under the covers. 05:36:33 Oh! You mean Mr Thomas, the Welsh poet? 05:36:34 "Dylan has anALGOL-like syntax rather than a Scheme-like prefix syntax." 05:36:42 that's one of the big selling points of Lisp, IMO 05:36:52 Also one of it's big anti-selling points. 05:36:56 *LISPs whatever the term is 05:37:11 really? you get over it pretty quickly:P or at least I did 05:37:16 Riastradh: Where is this URI library of yours, of which arcfide speaks? 05:37:19 perhaps because I have not been programming for very long 05:37:37 One theory was that replacing Dylan's original S-expression syntax by Algoloid syntax would spontaneously make Dylan wildly popular. 05:37:56 Rage, rage against the dying of the parens. 05:38:15 This theory has, however, been rather soundly debunked. 05:38:42 hmm 05:39:08 "Welsh poet" is also a tad misleading, though true in one sense. 05:39:23 the only syntax I truly hate is languages that use "end" for delimiting blocks... but I won't start that rant 05:39:27 jcowan: The Chibi URI parser is also pure R5RS. 05:39:28 brackets are OK in my book 05:39:48 You won't like Dylan's Algoloid syntax, then, lewis1711. 05:40:05 having a glance, i most certainly do not 05:40:13 alright 05:40:19 I prefer end to } 05:40:20 I'm going to ignite a miniature flamewar now 05:40:41 In Algol 68, ) and end are synonymous, except that ) only matches ( and end only matches begin. 05:40:44 And I prefer { to begin 05:40:46 jcowan, it's somewhere in . 05:40:47 elly: yes it's best you do it, I've been the one to do it the last two or so times, get the heat off me 05:40:47 #scheme, I already know C, Scheme, Standard ML, Perl, Python, and Java; I need a new language to learn. Recommend one? 05:41:07 Thus everyone in #scheme was enlightened 05:41:14 elly, well, try Dylan, if you like. 05:41:27 elly: Haskell 05:41:27 elly: what do you want to learn a language *for*? 05:41:28 current ideas are erlang and factor, basically 05:41:35 lewis1711: for entertainment and edification 05:41:42 I'd vote for smalltalk, because I want to learn it but am too lazy 05:41:57 Riastradh: Ah, thanks. It didn't occur to me to look in a directory named "darcs" for actual source code. 05:42:00 plus, you don't ahve a real OOP language in that list;) 05:42:01 groovy2shoes: I've played with Haskell a bit; it was too similar to ML for me to have any real 'a-ha!' moments from it 05:42:02 elly: erlang can be fun, too, and factor as well (it's like the bastard child of Froth and Common Lisp) 05:42:15 elly: the a-ha! moments come from the type classes 05:42:16 elly: Haskell 05:42:31 And Forth. 05:42:33 assembler. LLVM bytecode 05:42:34 And laziness. 05:42:42 I know assembler too, I just didn't bother listing it 05:42:45 elly: Prolog 05:42:55 jcowan: I did some prolog at school but never really learned it 05:42:57 elly: one thing that always annoyed me about SML was that some of the builtins are overloaded, but you can't overload your own functions... type classes are an elegant solution to that problem 05:43:04 elly, the important part of Haskell is that the type system does something for you, instead of simply restricting you. Remember the `equality type' nonsense in ML? Haskell has a principled answer to that. 05:43:05 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:43:24 Riastradh: yes, I know about typeclasses 05:43:34 I like haskell more than ML 05:43:48 elly: well, then, perhaps erlang! :D it'd be more practical than factor, I feel like. 05:43:57 practical is not really important 05:44:02 esperanto 05:44:06 Lojban. 05:44:06 The other important part of Haskell is that the evaluation model is very hard to understand and very much prone to space leaks that are hard to find. 05:44:10 I am intrigued by erlang's "replace any part of the running program" 05:44:28 then what is it about Factor that intrigues you? 05:44:30 *jcowan* used to do that in Basic with the CHAIN statement 05:44:34 Riastradh: so perhaps ML restrictions aren't so bad after all? 05:44:45 groovy2shoes: mostly it makes me think in a new way 05:44:56 lewis1711: laziness/eagerness and ML's underpowered type system are orthogonal 05:45:05 Example: What's wrong with this definition of foldl (other than maybe transposition of parameters, which I can never get straight)? foldl f a [] = a; foldl f a (x:xs) = foldl f (f a x) xs 05:45:15 elly: the new way of thinking is always more valuable than anything else 05:45:26 Riastradh: You're going to mention unbounded space usage, aren't you? ;-) 05:45:30 First of all, you are trying to define a left-fold in a right-fold language. Don't do that. 05:45:36 Riastradh: that is not tail-recursive 05:45:47 groovy2shoes: well, right, which is an argument for eiffel, factor, or prolog 05:45:54 all of which embody new ways of thinking, I think 05:46:02 That's absurd, jcowan. 05:46:12 Of course. 05:46:13 you're absurd! 05:46:17 elly: only used Ocaml, if briefly. didn't find the type system underpowered at all. mind you I don't know any haskell 05:46:17 this whole *system* is absurd! 05:46:27 elly, no, it's tail-recursive. A call to foldl either yields an answer or reduces to a call to foldl. 05:46:34 elly: well, then it must be factor, since you were only considering erlang and factor. QED. 05:46:45 groovy2shoes: :P 05:46:56 Riastradh: The (f a x) needs to be eager. 05:47:08 jcowan, there is a perfectly sensible definition of foldl in Haskell that is applicable where foldr is not reasonably so. 05:47:11 but if you learn smalltalk, you can be the guy that's all "you call that object orientated? THIS is object orientated" 05:47:12 jcowan: I have never tried writing anything 'big' in prolog and I get the impression that it is not possible - is that so? 05:47:16 You gave away the punch line, foof! I already told you that. 05:47:24 lewis1711: I think it'd take more than just a language to be a guy, but yeah :) 05:47:40 Crocodile Elly 05:47:45 haha 05:47:50 elly: They're all great languages to learn, the order is up to you :) Erlang and Prolog are more fun than Factor (imo of course), but Factor is definitely more different. 05:48:00 Told me what when? 05:48:32 lewis1711: lol @ the Smalltalk comment. 05:48:36 *elly* is not sure what she would write by way of really getting to know prolog - a theorem prover? 05:48:43 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours 05:48:57 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 05:49:02 elly: Sure, that works. 05:49:04 elly: expert systems are more fun, try CLIPS 05:49:15 elly: apparently it's used a lot in AI. Maybe Prolog would be an opportunity to pick up a new language and explore some AI. 05:49:18 I am *not* implementing scheme in prolog. 05:49:18 foof, oh, maybe I didn't. I have forgotten whom I have ranted to about foldl in Haskell. 05:49:27 *cky* wants to implement the Java 6 theorem prover using Scheme. 05:49:39 Riastradh: what's wrong with foldl in hakell? 05:49:49 lewis1711: What foof said. 05:49:49 foof: I know absolutely nothing about expert systems 05:49:54 can someone recommend an introduction? 05:50:00 Maybe you did. I recently forgot everything I knew about laziness so that I could implement it for Chibi. 05:50:02 (to expert systems or AI) 05:50:04 lewis1711: Lazy-evaluating the (f a x) causes unbounded space usage. 05:50:07 I'd like to write an interpreter in ocaml, for a static scheme 05:50:26 elly: the Norvig text... AI: A Modern Approach or something like that. 05:50:54 lewis1711, bletch. When I last read `Write Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours' (perhaps it has changed since then -- a couple of years ago), it was full of nonsense about the semantics of Scheme and extremely poor use of the abstractions available in Haskell. I threw together as a sort of response. 05:51:44 damn, so it's not all that swish? 05:51:45 a shame 05:51:47 aw, google ebooks does not have it 05:51:53 though it does save me learning it 05:52:34 Riastradh: what does the C-l in your source indicate? 05:53:05 ^L is the page delimiter. 05:53:05 elly: Page feed. 05:53:23 elly: CLIPS is actually pretty old, you might want to look at http://www.jessrules.com/ which can also do backwards (i.e. prolog-style) inference. 05:53:55 *lewis1711* looks up C enums in racket 05:54:06 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 05:54:18 I love being able to buy books. 05:54:51 I love being able to buy international editions of books. 05:54:52 elly: Where do you work now? They must have a generous book-buying policy, like Matasano does. :-) 05:55:23 Publishers love to take advantage of students in the US. To that, I say something in Gujarithi that I can't type on my keyboard ;) 05:55:54 Alas, there's no international edition of TAoCP :/ 05:56:01 jcowan, on URIs: If I recall correctly, the URI library is interface-compatible with MIT Scheme's, which may even be documented. However, the whole schemantic-web business was a toy which I never used in anger, nor tested any part of thoroughly. Also, if I recall correctly, the model of URIs that it presents is subtly normalized in ways that other agents are not guaranteed to respect. 05:56:25 cky: Google 05:57:12 Example: It will interpret the strings `http://mumble.net/%7ecampbell/' and `http://mumble.net/%7Ecampbell/' identically; passing them through URI->STRING will give EQ? results. But those strings represent distinct XML namespaces, distinct RDF nodes, and so on. 05:57:19 Excuse me, through STRING->URI. 05:57:40 elly: Congrats! 05:57:53 thanks ^^ 05:58:04 elly: Google recruiters get in touch with me semi-frequently, waiting for the day when I can relocate (not coming soon). 05:58:17 elly: I'm waiting for Google to open an office in the Research Triangle area. 05:58:17 (In other words, XML namespaces and RDF nodes are unbelievably stupidly designed, and I (and Chris) did what made sense before I realized that it's not what the brain-damaged specifications say.) 05:58:23 I have no idea if we have a way to buy books, but I mostly just wanted that one 05:58:36 Riastradh: You keep a hash of all URIs? 05:58:40 cky: ah - I work in Boston 05:58:41 elly: if it helps you decide, my next language *was* going to be Erlang, but I have to learn Prolog for a course I'm taking this semester. Factor was fun to play with, but I have found no use for it past the playing stage. It has little to offer past the funky syntax. 05:58:48 elly: I <3 Boston. 05:58:53 elly: I wish I could move there. 05:58:56 Yes, foof -- a weak one. Just like symbols. 05:59:17 groovy2shoes: I think that learning to program that way lends to a certain kind of mental discipline which is helpful for writing programs in general 05:59:21 I would go to Legal Sea Foods at least once a month, if I lived in Boston. 05:59:25 hehe 05:59:27 Riastradh: What about domains and paths? 05:59:33 Legal is in the same building as Google Cambridge :) 05:59:37 Oooh, fancy. 05:59:44 languages on my to learn list are: haskell, smalltalk, and J. languages to learn more of are Scheme, C and Ocaml. And the list of languages I am done with are much longer:) 05:59:45 What about them, foof? 06:00:08 elly: I think that's definitely true. So it's up to you whether to learn new concepts or a new discipline :) 06:00:32 well 06:00:38 in six days I will have a copy of Norvig's book 06:00:47 in the mean time I am going to read the erlang tutorial and see what happens 06:01:29 In typical applications URIs share common components with decreasing frequency as one move left to right. Sharing the domain and path can save a lot of space. 06:02:03 elly: it's a great book... it's pretty much the definitive text on AI. Lots of stuff about Agent-oriented programming. 06:02:06 URI authorities are interned too. Paths aren't. Maybe they should be. 06:03:48 But, as I said: I wrote it as a toy. If you find it useful, great; if not, I sha'n't insist that you reconsider. 06:08:05 woah, erlang is pretty 06:08:23 It is, no doubt, painfully slow, and it has comments such as `;++ ARGH!' which I left for no reason I can remember. It might have fewer conceptual bugs than MIT Scheme's URI library, because it more closely matches the RFC, and it is written in more portable Scheme, but that's all I can say for it. 06:09:55 ;++ ARGH 06:09:58 class Riastradh 06:10:03 pure class:D 06:10:24 elly: I have a copy of Programming Erlang by Joe Armstrong. I mean to get through it. 06:10:30 elly: Again, in my Copious Free Time. 06:10:50 yeah 06:10:56 I suffer from copious free time too 06:11:06 here is the equivalent program in erlang.. 06:11:11 does erlang have lambdas? 06:11:26 yes. and they're much shorter! 06:11:57 mmm, apply. 06:12:14 wait 06:12:14 I don't frequently hear erlang described as 'pretty'. 06:12:20 *does* it have lambdas? I did not see them 06:12:43 Mostly I hear about people saying, "It's really cool, just look past the syntactic warts..." 06:13:06 Lambda is spelt F-U-N-hyphen-greater-than in Erlang. 06:13:26 That's a full character shorter! 06:13:40 Riastradh: wait, what? 06:13:48 are any languages really pretty? 06:13:49 Usually you put a couple of spaces in too. 06:13:51 I didn't think erlang was particularly ugly, but it did seem to me to be boilerplate-prone. 06:13:53 And that character is "m", a fat one. 06:13:55 they're computer programs, not women:P 06:13:58 (or men, whatever) 06:14:18 *jcowan* thinks Pure is rather pretty 06:14:18 *elly* is trying to infer the lambda syntax 06:14:19 I like languages that are consistent and readable 06:14:28 mostly because you don't have to declare anything much. 06:14:29 (fun (x y z) -> ...) vs (lambda (x y z) ...) 06:14:34 oh, there's a spec 06:14:35 lewis1711: People apply aesthetics to everything, not just people they are potentially attracted to. 06:15:06 levi: hmm, I could even see how a landscape might be pretty. or a view. but languages? dunno, seems odd to me. but whatevs:) 06:15:07 Elly, you could learn Pure 06:15:13 lewis1711: readability seems to be subjective anyway 06:15:15 -!- mwolfe [~michael@cpe-67-49-72-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:17 jcowan: Pure? 06:15:37 *poof* 06:15:46 lewis1711: You don't think the layout of characters on a screen could have an aesthetic quality? 06:15:59 elly: erlang has lambdas, but they call them "funs" because they use the fun keyword 06:16:02 beyond looking neat, not really 06:16:29 Well, what do you mean by 'looking neat'? 06:16:48 what you guys mean when you say languages are pretty, except not quite as excited?;) 06:17:17 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 06:17:19 oh, it uses 'end' to terminate anonymous functions 06:17:25 elly: Pure is based on generalized term rewriting rather than lambda calculus (which is a special case of it). 06:17:28 Well, that's still an aesthetic judgement then, just not one you get worked up about. :) 06:17:38 http://pure-lang.googlecode.com 06:17:42 lewis1711: I'd say that Perl code is rather ugly, but Larry Wall has said that Lisp looks like a "bowl of oatmeal with fingernail clippings in it" 06:17:43 jcowan: and also resolutely ungoogleable :P sigh 06:18:02 Yes. Ironically, it's not a pure language. 06:18:27 elly: I would actually vote for factor over erlang, myself, but I wasn't around earlier when you poased the initial question. 06:18:35 It's impure, eager, and functional 06:18:36 levi: any particular reason? 06:18:52 (and a suggestion for something to write in it?) 06:20:11 elly: speech recognition software 06:20:27 I have no idea at all how to do that, foof :P 06:20:28 elly: It's an extremely flexible language with a utilitarian approach to its implementation, but requiring a different way to think while you program. 06:20:43 levi: different way of thinking is a plus. 06:21:09 It's really not *that* different... it's like Common Lisp backwards 06:21:48 Even the object system is more-or-less CLOS. 06:22:00 elly: use duck duck go - "Pure programming language" gives correct hits first 06:22:06 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:22:14 Sure, that's one of the things I like about it, but Erlang's not really that different either. 06:23:01 levi: this is true. 06:24:02 The backwardness of factor and the lack of explicit parameter passing makes for some interesting properties, especially when you mix in parsing words. 06:25:11 Shorthand lambda syntax for Scheme: [(a c b) (foo a b c)], [a b c -> (foo a b c)], [foo <1> <2> <3>], ...? 06:26:08 Ignore the fact that all of the above could be written `foo'. 06:26:33 foof: I did (fn a b c -> foo a b c) as a macro once 06:26:42 foof: ( (a b c) (foo a b c)) 06:28:13 *elly* clones factor 06:35:39 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:37:11 One of the things I like about factor is that it's useful for just about anything, and it has amassed a large collection of useful code as part of the distribution. So while it's all based on a very simple core, there are layers on top of it to provide lots of convenience for different kinds of tasks, and new convenience layers can be easily added. 06:38:05 levi: well, shit. You've just about convinced me to give Factor another look. 06:38:21 If only I had a shorter list of things to learn :) 06:38:27 == 06:38:31 And all of it aside from the core runtime is implemented in Factor, and you've got full access to it. 06:38:53 erlang, factor, prolog, number theory (again, sigh), topology, category theory... 06:40:52 There's a PEG parsing vocabulary (package) that you can use along with parsing words to create arbitrary syntax for the language. The PEG vocabulary itself takes advantage of parsing words, so you can write your grammar in a very BNF-like style. 06:41:03 ooh, nice 06:41:44 foof: Or you can use Arc-style unary lambda shorthand! [(+ _ 1)] is the same as add1, IIRC. 06:42:09 There's another vocabulary that lets you write literal XML in your code. 06:42:28 until you said that I was pretty happy about the arbitrary syntax thing. 06:42:42 Well, you don't have to use it. 06:42:58 :P 06:43:07 But if you have to deal with XML, having syntax that makes it convenient is nice. 06:45:07 Several people have done a lot of web-related development with factor, so it's got an integrated web framework and all that. The whole factor website (including the concatenative.org wiki and the factor pastebin) is written in factor. Also the build server and continuous integration system is written in factor. There was much dogfood-eating. 06:48:41 -!- groovy2shoes [~guv@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: groovy2shoes] 07:14:54 hrm 07:15:04 causing factor to load an arbitrary .factor file into a running listener is eluding me 07:17:29 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:18:10 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:18:26 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:19:32 -!- xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-qghqnayffirynjvi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:53 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-55.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:04:02 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-55.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:04:59 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-214.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:05:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-214.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:17:52 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:19:21 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 08:20:24 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.17.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23:30 should't this issue an error: (define x #f) (define (f k) (x k)) 08:23:32 ? 08:28:56 valium97682 [~daniel@189-47-113-196.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 08:29:27 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.74.35.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:35:43 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:40:20 phao : not until you call `f' 08:47:24 -!- somnium [~user@adsl-65-190-98.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:52:14 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:58:00 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:01:36 -!- qhe [~qhe2@nat/intel/x-arvaendtpvtletye] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:52 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 09:13:52 phao: it would, i suppose, if there were some sort of static type-checking. 09:14:47 static type checking! yay! 09:19:04 -!- timchen1` [tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:19:47 timchen1` [~vzloct_21@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 09:24:04 klutometis: It's possible for "x" to be set! before "f" gets called, so. 09:25:43 -!- timchen1` [~vzloct_21@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:27:27 timchen1` [tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 09:30:09 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:39:55 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 09:41:05 alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has joined #scheme 09:50:03 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.206.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:51:23 cky: right; but in our parallel universe (where scheme is statically type-checked), that might throw some sort of "illegimate boolean -> procedure cast." 09:52:14 s/cast/assignment/ 09:59:21 what do you guys think of this? 09:59:22 http://tinyurl.com/mwaraw 09:59:39 "[T]he functional programming languages use, as their fundamental model of computation, the lambda calculus, while all the other programming languages use the Turing machine as their fundamental model of computation." 10:00:03 not bad; i might have use the church/von-neumann dichotomy, though. 10:00:28 then there's this gem: "Rather than trying to be a second-rate Haskell or Scheme, [Python] should concentrate on being a first-rate Python." 10:00:49 he's right 10:00:58 If you want Scheme or Haskell, you know where to go ;) 10:01:04 tautological, i know; but it pains me when i try to write scheme in python. 10:01:09 sjamaan: good point! 10:17:56 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:34 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 10:23:28 -!- 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[Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:38:10 -!- neilcj [~neilcj@c-174-49-216-137.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:42:22 HG` [~HG@85.8.73.116] has joined #scheme 13:42:44 meltingwax [~meltingwa@rapids.dreamhost.com] has joined #scheme 13:43:07 how can i convert a char (like #\h) to a string (like "h")? 13:43:38 rudybot: eval (->string #\h) 13:43:39 C-Keen: your sandbox is ready 13:43:39 C-Keen: error: reference to undefined identifier: ->string 13:43:41 ah 13:43:58 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:44:16 rudybot: eval (string #\h) 13:44:16 sjamaan: your sandbox is ready 13:44:16 sjamaan: ; Value: "h" 13:44:19 rudybot: eval (list->string '(#\h)) 13:44:19 C-Keen: ; Value: "h" 13:44:25 That also works :) 13:44:28 :) 13:44:39 C-Keen: thanks! 13:44:48 meltingwax: sjamaan won 13:44:50 *C-Keen* bows 13:44:51 rudybot eval (answer) 13:44:55 haha 13:45:33 MapMan: you need a ':' 13:46:06 ;( 13:46:12 rudybot: eval (answer) 13:46:13 MapMan: your sandbox is ready 13:46:13 MapMan: error: reference to undefined identifier: answer 13:46:25 i am dissappointed, prolog knows the answer!!! 13:46:31 yes. 13:46:40 #t 13:48:48 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 13:49:38 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-214.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:49:49 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 13:51:50 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-214.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:54:56 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfce97.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:55:08 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-4d0671f2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 13:55:15 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:58 neilcj [~neilcj@c-174-49-216-137.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:56:19 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 14:01:04 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Remote host closed 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14:55:56 i.e., Use display for human-readable output, and write for machine-readable output. 14:56:22 cky: thank you! 14:57:41 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 15:00:22 :-) 15:02:02 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 15:02:37 m4burns [~m4burns@nat/uwaterloo/x-bzxwvpwagedfhzdb] has joined #scheme 15:03:13 -!- m4burns [~m4burns@nat/uwaterloo/x-bzxwvpwagedfhzdb] has left #scheme 15:06:07 cky: so does write/read provide any kind of way of dumping/loading data structures? 15:06:19 cky: i would love to ditch the tab-separated files i'm writing now :) 15:07:01 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:07:02 meltingwax: datastructures like s-expressions? 15:07:09 yes 15:07:12 Isn't that what read/write does? 15:07:55 i'm a scheme noob, i suspected it from what he said before 15:08:04 askhader: thanks 15:08:14 No problemo 15:08:57 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping 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bweaver` [~user@host-68-169-158-230.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:37 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-47.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:08:37 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #scheme 17:13:27 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:48 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-47.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:53 valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-113-196.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 17:36:59 -!- rien__ is now known as rien_ 17:37:50 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:47:13 offby1` [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 17:48:38 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:32 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:51:43 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:52:04 -!- kuribas [~user@94-226-138-159.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:55:37 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:02:57 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.253] has joined #scheme 18:08:06 eugene_trileski [~eugene@pool-71-249-127-12.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:08:19 good afternoon 18:08:33 hey 18:09:35 -!- hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:21:39 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:23:32 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:56 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:26:02 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.73.116] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:32:38 phao [~phao@189.107.131.116] has joined #scheme 18:35:05 HG` [~HG@85.8.73.116] has joined #scheme 18:38:18 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:21 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.73.116] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:18 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:47 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56:12 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.253] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 18:57:28 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:01:45 are there algorithms books using scheme? 19:02:02 Some book like "Introduction to Algorithms" (mit press one), but using scheme. 19:08:56 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:11:32 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:18 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 19:23:20 githogori [~githogori@234.sub-69-99-174.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 19:27:21 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:28:46 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.131.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:31:00 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:42:07 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:43:37 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:44:03 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:45:50 -!- futilius [~otheruser@2001:470:d:128:216:3eff:fe86:c70e] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 19:48:36 shriphani [shriphani@tark-b-173.resnet.purdue.edu] has joined #scheme 19:48:51 hello everyone. I am new to emacs and I was trying to install Quack to get a decent scheme environment on windows 7. However I can't get mit-scheme (or any scheme) to run when I run 'run-scheme'. has anyone had any success with this ? 19:49:17 shriphani: Try C-u M-x run-scheme 19:49:25 It will prompt you for the path to the scheme binary to use 19:49:47 If MIT Scheme isn't in your path it may not be able to find it by default 19:51:08 apply: Spawning child process: invalid argument 19:51:08 aaah! 19:51:17 uh? 19:51:25 -!- githogori [~githogori@234.sub-69-99-174.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:51:42 I think I am mucking up the spaces in the path. 19:54:08 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 19:54:57 Try evaluating (setq scheme-program-name "C:/whatever/MIT Scheme/whatsit") with M-: before using `M-x run-scheme RET'. I don't know whether you can pass pathnames with spaces in them to `C-u M-x run-scheme RET'. 19:55:24 Good point 19:56:23 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:01:23 nope. same error 20:01:31 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:01:39 schmir [~schmir@p54A91736.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:01:39 Try without Quack. 20:02:27 umm... I am a n00b. So I don't know what to try without quack 20:02:57 How did you install Quack? 20:03:41 HG` [~HG@85.8.73.116] has joined #scheme 20:03:56 i just put the el file in site-lisp and added (require 'quack) to my init.el 20:04:11 OK. Remove, or comment out, that line, and restart Emacs. 20:04:55 ok. and now eval and then run-scheme again ? 20:05:10 Yes. 20:07:29 futilius [~otheruser@2001:470:d:128:216:3eff:fe86:c70e] has joined #scheme 20:08:08 again. invalid argument. 20:09:17 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has joined #scheme 20:09:17 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has quit [Changing host] 20:09:17 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:09:18 oh well. I have edwin installed with MIT-Scheme. I guess I can use that. 20:09:26 If that fails reproducibly, type `M-x toggle-debug-on-error RET', try again, and paste the contents of the resulting debugger buffer at . 20:12:15 it started no debugger buffer... 20:13:42 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118636 <---- my messages buffer 20:15:59 Strange. I'm out of ideas. Maybe #emacs can help, but if Edwin works, you can use that. (Also, if Edwin fails, I can more probably help you with that than I can with GNU Emacs.) 20:16:15 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-113-196.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:17:37 offby1 [~user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 20:18:12 no edwin works fine. 20:18:18 -!- offby1 [~user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:18:18 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 20:22:26 -!- offby1` [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:22:37 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:22:58 offby1 [~user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 20:23:18 -!- offby1 [~user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:23:18 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 20:23:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-144-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:24:00 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 20:35:36 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A91736.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:19 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:21 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:49:11 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-214.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:49:17 valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-113-196.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 20:49:32 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-228.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:49:34 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-228.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:52:23 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-214.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:53:06 -!- shriphani [shriphani@tark-b-173.resnet.purdue.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:56:13 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 21:04:24 -!- bitweiler [~bitweiler@adsl-99-40-239-167.dsl.stl2mo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:46 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-113-196.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:06 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:10:16 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:13:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-228.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:14:22 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-228.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:16:33 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 21:21:19 -!- eugene_trileski [~eugene@pool-71-249-127-12.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:26 -!- f8l [~f8l@77-255-12-39.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: Good night (UGT).] 21:29:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:30:01 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:33:03 phao [~phao@189.107.246.152] has joined #scheme 21:39:11 this is funny: "More often than not, I have personally found that people who refer to CL as an FP language end up confusing themselves by thinking CL is secretly Scheme with bad syntax." 21:39:18 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/43090ddeeb50051c 21:45:39 *rien_* clicks 21:49:33 are there algorithms books using scheme? Some book like "Introduction to Algorithms" (mit press one), but using scheme 21:50:30 maybe something like the Schemer series? (NB: I haven't read them yet) 21:50:33 phao: ^ 21:50:42 I'm reading them 21:50:58 read the little schemer, but they're not like that 21:51:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-228.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:51:04 they're not what you want? 21:51:05 hmm 21:51:11 what exactly are you looking for? 21:51:16 not in terms of algorithms 21:51:20 Yes, phao: the book you already have. It is left as an exercise for the reader to translate all the algorithms into an executable programming language such as Scheme. 21:51:22 they talk more about program design with scheme 21:51:44 Riastradh, what do you mean by the book I already have? 21:52:02 CLR 21:52:13 clr? 21:52:38 Cormen, Leiserson, and Rivest, _Introduction to Algorithms_, the book you just mentioned. 21:52:59 I don't have that book 21:53:05 where did he mention that? 21:53:33 OK, `the book you just mentioned', then, not `the book you already have'. 21:53:40 heh 21:53:50 I've seen some pseudo code from that book 21:54:00 does it use scheme really? 21:54:00 it's imperative 21:54:07 rien_, `Some book like "Introduction to Algorithms" (mit press one)' 21:54:26 No, rien_. See the sentence right after my initial affirmative answer. 21:54:51 hmm 21:55:09 Yes, phao, but that doesn't preclude you from expressing the algorithms in Scheme, or from analyzing them. 21:55:47 yes, but the point is actually avoiding imperative code 21:56:24 he wants to see algorithms in functional code 21:56:41 If you want material on some purely functional algorithms (for data structures in particular), there's a little book called _Purely Functional Data Structures_ by Chris Okasaki. However, it assumes background in analyzing algorithms, to which the canonical introduction is CLR. 21:56:51 it'll be hard to find a book that does anything functional without using algebraic data types, methinks 21:57:06 Riastradh: also doesn;t that book use haskell? 21:57:54 it's not so hard to do something like ADTs in scheme. At least enough like it for algorithms. 21:57:55 The in-line code is written in ML. There is an appendix of Haskell code. Translating it into Scheme is left as an exercise for the reader -- and would probably be more edifying than simply reading the ML or Haskell code. 21:58:30 (SML, specifically.) 21:58:42 bremner: I'll believe you because I've never tried it, I just imagine it should be very hard 21:59:06 ADTs allow pattern matching, but you're right, I've seen some nice pattern matching in scheme 21:59:08 rien_: have a look at the plai language in racket, for example 21:59:14 can't remember the name of the function that allows that 21:59:29 Use quasiquotation and foof's MATCH from for a quick hack. 21:59:31 Riastradh: oic 22:00:24 (define (leaf) '(leaf)) (define (branch left key datum right) `(branch ,left ,key ,datum ,right)) (match (frobnitz zaptwoddle) ('(leaf) ...) (`(branch ,_ ,k ,d ,_) (frotz k d))) 22:00:40 wow 22:01:34 I love sexprs but I'm not mentally prepared to be writing pattern matches in them :) 22:03:07 Unthahorsten [~Unthahors@del63-3-88-177-167-25.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:04:27 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:06:29 ML like pattern matching is nice, however not very robust to changes. How do you deal softly with it ? Any good practice about that to shared ? 22:06:36 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 22:07:17 Limit your use of it, Unthahorsten. 22:07:27 it's *really* useful when it is 22:07:37 Specifically, limit your use of it to a small body of code that implements the important abstractions needed by the rest of the code. 22:08:51 Riastradh: Thanks for the tip. I don't use much of it in Scheme. 22:11:22 Scheme is more ADT friendly IMHO. 22:11:43 where your A = abstract? 22:12:27 bremner: Yes 22:12:53 a constant confusion with algebraic, maybe less so around here. 22:12:55 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 22:15:55 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:16:33 valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-113-196.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 22:18:11 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-228.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:20:09 I once tried pattern matching style by abstracting over patterns but it becomes a mess to manage changes.... I quickly reverted to ADT style and try to stick with it but I feel compelled to ML style sometimes. 22:21:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-144-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:22:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:32:15 Do you know why values cannot be stored in Racket ? Guile allows it. 22:32:27 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:12 Unthahorsten: what do you mean? like (set! ) or what? 22:33:22 It makes no more sense to write (let ((x (values 1 2))) ...) than to write (let ((f (lambda (x) ...))) (f 1 2)). 22:33:40 (You are, I presume, referring to multiple return values, as in the VALUES and CALL-WITH-VALUES procedures?) 22:33:57 oops 22:35:11 (define a (values 1 2)) returns an error in Petite Chez also, why does it works for some Scheme and not for others ? 22:35:43 If it works, it works only by accident. 22:35:55 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:21 That's unfortunate, any good reason why not ? 22:40:47 Unthahorsten: Some Schemes ignore extra values after the first in continuations that accept only one argument 22:41:28 Chicken does this, for example. It's a feature that can be very useful 22:42:22 sjamaan: Ok thanks. 22:44:04 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 22:46:28 Hm, some good conversation in the scrollback today. Plus I got to see an American say "shan't". (But Riastradh is an exceptional American, and he even used the original (archaic?) doubly-apostrophed form!) 22:47:09 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:47:29 there's a doubly-apostrophed form? 22:48:10 It's unfortunate because this prevents using (values) as a general way to return nothing in some implementations. 22:48:53 davazp [~user@3.Red-83-46-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:49:31 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:12 I have to go now, bye ! 22:50:17 -!- Unthahorsten [~Unthahors@del63-3-88-177-167-25.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: goodbye] 22:51:55 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:55:28 elly: "shan't'" 22:55:31 Oops 22:55:37 "Sha'n't" 22:57:04 ...Which I guess is the more logical form, as you're dropping the double l and the o. And I suppose that "won't" was once "wo'n't" too. *shrug* 22:57:42 yeah 22:57:52 hm, I had not noticed that the elided letters are not marked there 22:57:54 that's odd. 22:57:56 re the conversation in the scrollback, at least I was using ADT as algebraic, not abstract 22:59:42 elly: Let's not mention the fact the vowel mutates too! 22:59:53 English... 23:00:13 The vowel mutates? 23:00:32 The `o' marks the elided letters, `ill', in `won't', obviously. 23:01:11 Of course it makes no sense for the `a' in `shan't' to do the same, because `a' is not elided at all, so it should naturally be `sha'n't'. 23:01:24 See? Straightforward and logical. 23:02:11 Nice to see someone can build consistency from... anything. :-) 23:02:15 rien_: yeah, I understood that at the time. 23:03:21 levi: From "will" to "won't" (unless "won't" is a contraction of "woll not"?) 23:03:31 ...Or what Riastradh said. 23:04:41 fds: Yeah, I had just missed the switch from talking about shan't to won't. 23:04:56 wo'n't? 23:05:46 Then people say lojban has too much apostrophes :P 23:06:01 Apparently it is an abbreviation of "woll not": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wo%27n%27t 23:06:11 *fds* learnt something today 23:06:28 what is woll? 23:06:55 I think that "woll" was an older form of "will" 23:07:14 So, "will" is the one that changed whereas "won't" didn't. However, I'm not certain. 23:07:50 erjiang [~erjiang@140-182-131-167.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 23:08:54 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci] 23:11:14 http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/Will 23:12:38 Hm, that could be a complete fabrication. However, I think German does have "wollen", which means "to will". Unfortunately I can't actually check that because Google translate has crashed Firefox, as it is wont to do. :-P 23:12:41 The first verb form shows 'Wol' as an obsolete alternative for Will. 23:12:50 Ah, excellent. 23:14:33 Surely you mean `as it is wint to do'. 23:14:59 That's what I said, wisn't it? 23:15:17 Or, wosn't it? I'm confused now 23:15:26 No, ot wasn't. 23:15:36 O see. 23:17:42 I wot nought of which you speak 23:18:17 or ye speak, for that added flava 23:19:10 wisey [~Steven@host86-150-108-29.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 23:19:18 empt [~empt@112.2.217.126] has joined #scheme 23:20:35 tlg [~tlg@88.235.135.0] has joined #scheme 23:21:32 I don't know anything; Firefox still isn't working. I feel so stupid with only my fleshy brain. 23:21:53 Also, I wasn't expecting to see "ye" and "flava" used in the same sentence when I woke up this morning 23:22:56 Life is like a box of chocolates:D 23:23:13 -!- tlg [~tlg@88.235.135.0] has quit [Client Quit] 23:24:52 htop is telling me that Firefox isn't running and `killall firefox-bin' tells me that there's no suck process, but Openbox still has an icon for it and if I try starting it, it tells me that it's already running... 23:24:57 *fds* curses 23:25:32 Is this dbus's fault? 23:26:24 I'm not sure. 23:28:13 Is dbus involved? If so, you can blame dbus even if it's not at fault, because it made your computer too complicated to fit in your head in order to understand the real source of the problem. 23:28:48 :-D 23:28:53 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:28:56 your computer was too complicated to fit in your head before dbus too 23:28:57 heh. if only more people thought like that 23:28:59 I definitely have a dbus daemon running, so yes 23:30:31 Every last detail of the computer may be too much to fit in one's head. But at least without dbus it can be a set of manageable, understandable parts. I'm not convinced it can still be that with dbus. 23:31:11 Ah ha, the problem was actually gtk-gnash! 23:31:46 (My solution: I run dbus sometimes. In a chroot. Isolated from the rest of the system. Blown away regularly. Only for running certain programs that insist on it.) 23:31:54 Trying to play a soundfile from Google translate, apparently. :-S 23:32:15 Although, I have no idea why Google translate needs sound files, or to play them with Gnash... 23:32:19 *fds* sighs 23:32:25 Gnash? Google Translate plays audio with Flash? 23:32:37 Looks like it from here 23:33:03 The process I had to kill was "/usr/bin/gtk-gnash -u http://www.gstatic.com/translate/sound_player2.swf -U http://translate.goog" 23:34:04 The nice thing is that Firefox didn't actually crash, so I don't have to reload all my tabs. 23:36:02 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:38:04 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@140-182-131-167.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:43:09 jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:44:06 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.73.116] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:44:28 schmir [~schmir@p54A91736.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:58:16 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A91736.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:04 -!- jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]