00:00:32 jcowan: What, specifically, breaks? 00:00:44 In Chicken? 00:00:52 Yes. 00:01:03 I forget now. At some point Chicken built and ran CMD.EXE scripts 00:01:07 It may not do that any more. 00:01:22 foof: cmd.exe has to support running programs like this: "prog/opt1/opt2" (to be treated the same as "prog /opt1/opt2", which some programs parse as "/opt1 /opt2"). 00:01:24 What can break in theory? 00:02:16 -!- githogori [~githogori@44.sub-75-210-234.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:02:45 So, for example, to get a directory listing ordered by date, normally you'd say "dir /od", but "dir/od" is supposed to work too. 00:03:04 If you think about that, you can see why having / in the program name isn't going to fly, for cmd.exe at least. 00:03:10 <_p4bl0> cky: I don't see what's surprising about liking PHP for what it does well :-). I have to agree that the friend of mine who advocate Haskell and PHP as the two best languages ever is rather strange (as anyone in my school in fact ^^), but that's another story. 00:03:18 That's launching an external shell which will never be portable anyway. 00:03:25 foof: Exactly. 00:03:35 From a language perspective you're only concerned with execve. 00:03:40 Exactly. 00:03:53 Though, don't get me started with Windows and execve.... 00:04:09 So, on Windows, programs receive one command arguments string, rather than a collection of them. 00:04:25 execve actually (at the library end) packs them into one string to call at the OS level. 00:04:39 And the program being run has to parse the string. 00:04:49 (On Cygwin, it's passed both ways, because the calling program doesn't know if the called program is Cygwin or native.) 00:05:03 jcowan: Oooh, fancy. 00:05:21 <_p4bl0> cky: ewww and / is supposed to be an argument separator when parsing the args string? 00:05:27 Yes. 00:05:37 Historically, / is older than -, so Windows is being conservative here. 00:06:04 I thought Windows was just following DOS, which was following CP/M. 00:06:05 / was an option character in DEC OSes before Unix existed. 00:06:05 err. really what used /? multics? 00:06:15 Oh, / came from DEC? Wow. 00:06:23 ah. DCL 00:06:24 Yes, along with ^C (break, not copy) 00:06:32 And here I thought CP/M invented /. I guess not. 00:06:34 TOPS-10 was probalby the first. 00:06:41 Oh no. CP/M was a clone of RT-11. 00:06:46 Huh. 00:06:50 But all DEC OSes shared many notational conventions. 00:07:29 *_p4bl0* just thought that if Windows follows the equivalent of the GNU -- convention for stopping arguments parsing, then it's ignoring what's after // which is rather logic ^^ 00:07:32 Also ^U and ^R and all those. 00:07:45 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:11:43 phao_ [~phao@189.107.219.121] has joined #scheme 00:13:18 I seriously cannot understand the install guide for slib 00:13:34 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.129.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:18:04 rudybot: eval apply 00:18:05 cky: your racket sandbox is ready 00:18:05 cky: ; Value: # 00:24:00 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:25:44 -!- erjiang [~eric@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:59 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #scheme 00:30:16 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 00:34:51 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 00:36:03 kanru [~kanru@114-45-237-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 00:37:00 lol, gisthub has better syntax highlighting than emacs, vim or drracket. how dissapointing. https://gist.github.com/772350 00:37:22 ROFL 00:39:03 bitweiler: sad, huh? none of the above can figure out when you've defined your own procedures and colour them accordingly 00:39:36 i guess your emacs is broken 00:40:04 my does syntax highlighting perfectly to me 00:40:34 so built-in stuff like "define" is a different colour to procedures you've defined yourself? 00:40:40 lewis1711, have you tried 'check syntax' in drracket? 00:40:46 and I'm sure racket does enough highlighting to get work done 00:41:33 yeah it does 00:41:41 but the fact remains that gist, a paste site, is superior 00:41:53 jonrafkind: yeah thats a bit better 00:44:40 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:45:19 -!- scheibo [~scheibo@CPE001dba06b84c-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:36 scheibo [~scheibo@CPE001dba06b84c-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:47:02 -!- sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:48:13 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 00:54:47 Axioplase_: http://pragmattica.wordpress.com/2007/11/25/getting-started-with-scheme-on-ubuntu-part-2/ the most straightforward explination of getting gambit and slib working that I can find (recall you saying you should try out slib) 00:54:47 http://tinyurl.com/6xvcghe 00:55:25 -!- dskippy1 [~dskippy@209-6-28-198.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:01:04 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:03 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 01:05:07 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 01:07:31 -!- kanru [~kanru@114-45-237-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:10:48 lewis1711: slib isn't that hard to install 01:11:50 but if it works for you, ;) 01:12:29 xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-pwgrrpiaijqveyvt] has joined #scheme 01:12:55 bitweiler: I cannot understand what the guy writes. for serious. I am sure he is very clever and all but it gives me a headache 01:13:17 -!- qhe [~qhe2@nat/intel/x-ixtpnhzshtfmsmqo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:13:36 hehe 01:13:55 *bitweiler* gives lewis1711 pain-killers 01:14:08 .0. 01:14:18 sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 01:14:33 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 01:24:16 qhe [~qhe2@nat/intel/x-fkouvhuaxdvdnzkf] has joined #scheme 01:27:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-134.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:45 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:36:10 -!- tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:37:26 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:40:32 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:41:56 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #scheme 01:52:08 DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has joined #scheme 01:52:31 -!- scheibo [~scheibo@CPE001dba06b84c-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:53:24 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #scheme 01:55:06 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:55:11 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.147.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:55:12 zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-103-27.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 01:55:19 junos [~hobo@cpe-74-69-38-24.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:56:14 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:57:23 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-103-27.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:37 scheibo [~scheibo@CPE001dba06b84c-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:57:37 is there a scientific scheme library...perhaps like scipy/numpy etc. 02:03:09 I've never used Scipy/Numpy or SLIB, but maybe these are some of the functions you're looking for: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/slib_5.html#SEC108 ? 02:03:22 (Relatively useless answer, I'm just trying to make this place look lively) 02:03:53 mwolfe [~michael@cpe-67-49-72-40.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:28:00 -!- sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:32:49 -!- junos [~hobo@cpe-74-69-38-24.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:32:51 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-5f77bc47.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:33:03 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-4dbed7a9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 02:34:24 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:34:33 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:34:45 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:36:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-144-41.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:37:01 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-144-41.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:46:07 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:46:21 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:30 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:43 -!- mwolfe [~michael@cpe-67-49-72-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:42 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-yujfzkbpdwlmeimv] has joined #scheme 02:47:42 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-yujfzkbpdwlmeimv] has quit [Changing host] 02:47:42 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 02:49:36 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 02:53:58 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 02:56:04 thought this was an excellent article: . 02:56:18 it's nominally about the fear of macros in CL, but then he busts out this gem: "What matters most to readability is, first, comments, followed by identifier names, followed by there being as little code as possible, followed by program structure." 03:02:24 josephholsten_ [~josephhol@ip70-189-106-111.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:53 I imagine applied mathsmaticians would avoid S-expression languages, hence no scheme scipy 03:03:43 Why do you say that? 03:04:13 klutometis: alot of what he said made sense though 03:04:41 maintainable code that is 03:05:21 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:05:23 bitweiler: exactly 03:05:26 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:05:41 fds: because it's now they write or were taught mathematics, and most people won't change:P all the ones I know at university use python, matlab, or mathematica 03:05:51 *not how 03:06:28 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:06:28 -!- josephholsten_ is now known as josephholsten 03:07:55 Fail, fail, fail. 03:07:57 R 4eva! 03:08:10 (Say I, who worked on R for my honours project at university.) 03:08:21 *cky* majored in statistics at University of Auckland, where R was invented. 03:08:25 cky: R isn't an x-expression language 03:08:26 lewis1711: Well, speaking as someone with a BSc in (the so-called) "Mathematical Sciences", I quite like s-expressions. :-) 03:08:27 *s 03:08:30 and yeah, I was about to say that 03:08:34 lewis1711: Actually, behind the scenes, it is. 03:08:37 of course you used R cky :P 03:08:39 I've never called myself an applied mathematician though 03:09:01 fds: aye, and I am majoring in maths that is generally quite applied. but we are the minority 03:09:11 lewis1711: Behind the scenes, R's data structures are all the same as Scheme's; cons cells, closures, etc. 03:09:24 right, but you don't write R with s-expressions 03:10:18 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:10:24 Beauty is skin deep. :-P 03:10:55 Anyway, changing my major to statistics was probably the best choice I ever made in my university years. :-P 03:11:20 Because it allowed me to work on R, and through that, learn about Scheme. 03:11:22 I took stats 101 03:11:25 I hated it 03:11:28 cky: I have a funny story about R and UoA 03:11:33 arbscht: Oh, yes? 03:11:45 scraped through with a pass, through some last minute cramming. barely studied 03:11:46 cky: it's probably off-topic 03:12:26 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:12:33 lewis1711: Yeah, we definitely are. I was just wondering why you chose mathematicians in particular, I'm not sure that sexp-based languages are any more underrepresented in that area than any other *shrug* 03:13:16 fds: well generally a maths package like scipy takes a lot of knowledgable mathematicians to make, hence why I doubt something similar would exist for scheme 03:13:35 That is true. 03:13:54 lewis1711: That's how I approached 100% of my courses. 03:14:07 lewis1711: I'm too lazy to study. 03:14:22 lewis1711: All my waking hours (i.e., dark ones) are spent hacking, and lecture rooms are where I sleep. 03:22:21 lewis1711: Because of this habit, my grades were terrible. I had this story (that I just told arbscht) about some unfortunate decision that led to me getting a 2:2 honours instead of a 2:1. 03:22:45 your grades were so terrible you got into honours? yeah stop showing off about your natural intelligence:P 03:23:14 Okay, so I'm a member of Mensa. There, I said it already. :-P 03:23:26 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@ip70-189-106-111.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 03:23:55 Anyway, at UoA, if you're doing a postgraduade stats course, there's a compulsory paper called Computing for Statisticians. 03:24:22 Anyway, I figured I already knew all this stuff, so I talked to the HoD and asked to be exempted from the course. 03:24:35 He agreed. In fact, no lecturer thought I needed to do the course. 03:24:52 But, because I was bored, I went to all the lectures and did all the assignments anyway. 03:25:07 I would have got an A+. But because I opted out, that A+ could not be entered into my records. 03:25:21 That dropped my GPA a fair bit. :-P 03:25:22 lewis1711: I think you'll finf IRC is full of naturally intelligent underachievers. :-P 03:25:29 fds: Hehehehehe. 03:25:33 Find too 03:25:55 so you just spent ages about how poor your grades are, and how you never studied, and you got... not quite A+'s? 03:25:57 Although, being in Mensa might rule cky out from the underachieving part :-P 03:25:59 you must be a hit at parties cky 03:26:16 Perhaps an ex-underachiever. 03:26:21 fds: What? You don't need to achieve jack to get into Mensa. :-P 03:26:26 fds: You just need to pass some test. 03:26:46 cky: Well, passing a test _is_ an achievement! :-P 03:26:52 Hahahaha. 03:27:11 anyway, I am just angry because last year was shit for various reasons, and i am retaking 3/8 papers:P 03:27:13 lewis1711: Most of my other courses were C-level grades. That computing course was the sole exception. 03:27:47 lewis1711: When I did my honours, I was 19, but I was already burnt out (because I started uni at 16), and just wanted out. Had no motivation to study any more. 03:28:48 alright, it's official. I am now waiting for you to casually mention your massive genitals and how you could beat up anyone in this chatroom 03:29:35 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:29:55 I'll just casually mention how my eyes are rolling so hard they're about to fall out of the socket. 03:30:49 I could probably beat up anyone in this chat room, but as I measure my skillset against pro and am fighters that doesn't really help me much 03:31:07 Adamant: Nice. :-) 03:31:32 my wing-wang is only averaged sized and I would have failed college at 16 hard, though 03:31:41 it all balances 03:32:32 *bitweiler* got expelled from Uni :( 03:32:42 Adamant: Hehehehehe. 03:32:53 bitweiler: Oh noes! 03:33:06 bitweiler: Were you too smart for your lecturers? 03:33:10 bitweiler: it happens 03:33:11 I should've been expelled, but unfortunately they let me finish. :-P 03:33:15 bitweiler: Did you correct them one too many times? :-P 03:33:30 the dean thought I stayed to high on the blunts 03:33:30 fds: Oh, yes? 03:33:32 get some work experince and come back later 03:33:46 ah 03:34:01 oh I will but I'll still come back smoking 03:34:16 cky: Yeah, I was a terrible student. And now I can't get the government to pay for me to go back 03:34:27 fds: Hahaha, awwww... 03:34:33 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 03:35:04 bitweiler: Smoking was the main reason my grades were as bad as they were! :-P 03:35:31 my were great 03:35:47 Why were you expelled then? 03:35:53 Oh, I see 03:35:57 just forgot to not leave reefer in my room 03:36:07 Heh, bad luck 03:36:27 i know but I think the asshole across the hall snitched 03:37:39 bitweiler: :-( 03:38:02 bitweiler: I've got nothing against smoking, but if you forget that bit it may be time to back off. 03:38:07 bitweiler: I think that asshole across the hall would fit very nicely into your bong, amirite? 03:38:23 *bitweiler* nods 03:39:44 Adamant: i didn't forget that bit, who would have thought to look in a tobacco can and pull tobacco out to get the reefer 03:40:11 I also smoke pipe tobacco as well 03:40:22 a very experienced searcher, or a tipped off searcher 03:40:35 either one would work 03:40:35 *bitweiler* agrees 03:40:37 bitweiler: tobacco is bad for you! 03:40:45 *bitweiler* shrugs 03:46:26 *cky* decides to twist lewis1711's arm some more.... 03:46:55 lewis1711: Oh, yes, BTW, I don't go to Mensa gatherings for the rocket-science presentations...I go there just to find people to play 500 with. :-P 03:47:13 the mensa thing was the least impressive one 03:47:14 ;) 03:47:23 I agree. 03:47:45 mensans are boring, no offense (and not all of them of course) 03:47:56 rien: It can be hit and miss, for sure. 03:48:04 rien: The ones who play 500 are interesting, though. :-P 03:48:32 I was a member for 5 years then I quit because there are much better groups out there than their SIGs 03:48:37 what's 500? 03:50:19 rien: 500 is this card game that's somewhere between Bridge and Euchre. 03:50:29 rien: Most New Zealanders and Australians know how to play it. 03:50:41 yeah, I seriously don't belong here 03:50:42 :P 03:50:58 lewis1711: You don't play 500? Yeah, you should so "go back to your home country". :-P 03:51:18 I don't really like card games. :( they're too social and I'm anti- :) 03:51:22 the only reason I'd go to mensa would be to drum up support for my intelligence based segregation policy, which i call "Asmartheid". 03:51:33 cky: I'm 2nd generation, but fine I'll head back to Ulster eventually 03:51:34 hahahah 03:51:40 Hahahahaha. 03:52:04 bitweiler: which country? doesn't seem to get expelled for that 03:52:33 cuba 03:52:49 lewis1711: we need to concentrate on seperating the evil people from the rest of us first 03:53:05 what's this us business? 03:53:06 ;) 03:53:15 right 03:53:53 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:20 *lewis1711* places small finger to corner of mouth 03:54:32 :D 03:55:50 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:56:14 bitweiler: *doesn't seem right, I meant 03:56:30 oh, I was reading 03:57:31 sbrtgr: but what doesn't seem right though 03:57:48 bitweiler: sbrtgr probably means it's odd to get expelled for weed. 03:57:57 Unless you're in the US or UK, of course. 03:57:58 oh, i know 03:58:06 i in the US 03:58:11 Ah. 03:59:31 i thought sbrtgr was talking about lewis1711 sucking fingers over there 03:59:45 *bitweiler* points at lewis1711 04:00:09 :O 04:00:18 *lewis1711* washes hands in innocence 04:00:22 I'm clarity itself (wait what now?) 04:00:29 :p 04:01:04 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:43 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 04:02:34 bitweiler: O_o Sucking fingers? Dr Evil never did that! 04:02:55 i know 04:04:38 cky: better watch out for that fellow 04:04:56 I know, right. 04:05:05 *bitweiler* nods 04:05:14 *cky* sends lewis1711 a nutty brew. 04:05:20 rofl 04:05:50 cky: shouldn't have did that he'll be trying to suck on you next 04:06:11 *bitweiler* runs to roof top 04:06:41 O_o 04:06:55 a nutty brew? 04:07:05 hmm 04:07:07 lewis1711: It's a reference from the same series. 04:07:08 :-P 04:07:23 ha, I can't even remember 04:08:00 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:20:42 josephholsten [~josephhol@ip70-189-106-111.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 04:28:33 imran_sr [~imran@75-18-254-4.lightspeed.uncyca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:29:40 cky: Bah, the UK is fairly weed-tolerant. I've been seen smoking by a fair few policeman in my life and only had it confiscated once! :-P 04:29:55 (Or do I mean, "my friend has been seen..."?) 04:30:03 fds: :-P 04:30:18 fds: Probably better than the US, but compared to New Zealand? 04:30:43 Unfortunately I've never been to New Zealand, but yeah, it's probably better there. 04:31:46 Hehehehe. 04:32:58 the US wish to make criminals of everyone 04:33:09 s/wish/wishes/ 04:33:26 I prefer treating countries as plural objects myself 04:33:33 :-) 04:33:44 Hahahaha. 04:33:54 and the policemen are the biggest criminals here 04:34:21 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@ip70-189-106-111.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 04:34:42 Hahahaha. 04:34:50 And, I'm sure it depends where you are in the UK, I'm lucky enough to have grown up in a poor neighbourhood where the police don't really care what you do as long as you aren't robbing anyone who might complain to them. :-P 04:35:42 :-) 04:36:12 But anyway, this is incredibly off-topic, I apologise for continuing it. And this level of personal disclosure probably means I should go to bed. :-P 04:36:33 Hahahahaha. 04:36:51 Well, you're welcome to talk about this on #stackoverflow. There is no such thing as on-topic there. :-P 04:43:20 -!- kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:43:32 -!- DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:45:04 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:46:14 kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:47:48 groovy2shoes [~guv@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme 04:50:22 -!- phao_ [~phao@189.107.219.121] has left #scheme 04:50:40 phao [~phao@189.107.219.121] has joined #scheme 05:03:50 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:05:36 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 05:05:52 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:10:57 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 05:13:26 -!- neilcj [~neilcj@c-174-49-216-137.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:14:31 DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has joined #scheme 05:24:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:04 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:27:48 -!- TheRebutler [~TheRebutl@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:29:37 TheRebutler [~TheRebutl@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:29:40 -!- TheRebutler is now known as abc_ 05:29:41 -!- bitweiler [~bitweiler@99.40.239.167] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 05:29:43 -!- abc_ is now known as k04n 05:31:06 -!- k04n [~TheRebutl@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:32:27 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 05:41:18 qhe1 [~qhe2@nat/intel/x-vxpyebnxnncnqzot] has joined #scheme 05:43:43 -!- qhe [~qhe2@nat/intel/x-fkouvhuaxdvdnzkf] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:47:35 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:54:53 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:01:03 eugene_trileski [~eugene@pool-71-249-127-12.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:03:29 i've noticed scheme has a lot of good textbooks. I am a cs student 2nd year learning c++. Do you guys think scheme is worth learning given the quality of scheme textbooks out there? 06:04:31 Scheme is always worth learning. 06:04:53 Even if you never get to use it for something major, the ideas are always applicable in other situations. 06:05:26 Not to mention the fact that many languages are absorbing ideas from Scheme and other functional languages, like first-class functions and the like. 06:05:41 I was really enjoying the little schemer so far 06:05:47 Yes, it's a good book. 06:06:04 Once you get hooked into Scheme, you may find C++ to be too much of a pain to code in. :-P 06:06:11 i already do : ))) 06:06:16 :-D 06:06:40 Not to mention, Matt Might wrote an implementation of a lambda-esque feature using C++ templates: http://matt.might.net/articles/lambda-style-anonymous-functions-from-c++-templates/ 06:06:41 http://tinyurl.com/y567pcn 06:06:43 i used to be skeptical about functional languages until i saw what clojure what trying to do for JVM 06:07:01 *nods* 06:07:06 and i realized it can be very useful to learn and then i found good textbooks 06:07:12 from mit 06:07:30 thanks for the resources guys 06:07:31 I haven't looked too deep into Clojure yet, but at first glance it seems too heretical for my taste. 06:08:23 eugene_trileski: there are a lot of good ideas in functional languages, many of which are being absorbed by mainstream languages, and I encourage you to learn many languages. Knowledge of new languages is never a detriment, even if you end up programming C++ forever :) 06:08:28 but it is good to know that there are all these libriaries 06:08:41 if one chooses to use a functional language because of java 06:09:21 by functional language i meant clojure 06:09:22 Indeed, Java class libraries are good to have around, and some of them work really well with functional programming. Like Guava. 06:09:51 yeah and i am a big fan of simplicity that doesn't try to have syntax for everything 06:10:04 eventually there is just too much to have syntax for 06:10:23 everything 06:11:20 Indeed. 06:11:31 I've decided what my next Scheme project will be. :-P 06:11:44 what is it? 06:11:48 I'm going to write a Java class file de-obfuscator. 06:11:56 haha 06:12:25 I've had years of experience with reverse-engineering stuff, but mainly with stuff that isn't obfuscated. 06:12:54 Well, I figured I'd dip my hand into reverse-engineering obfuscated stuff, so if I can write a tool to help me deobfuscate stuff, then so much the better. 06:13:11 : ) 06:14:04 is there a good book with general programming assignments of some kind 06:14:08 independent of language 06:14:16 so i can sort of use it to learn new languages 06:14:18 eugene_trileski: Sure. The Art of Computer Programming is one. :-P 06:15:08 i looked at it on amazon and it seemed like it was about learning computer science in general and not getting used to new syntax 06:15:12 Many of its exercises involve assembly, but if you can get past that, you can solve the exercises in most any language you please. :-P 06:15:32 i will have to learn assembly in my next class anyways (architecture) 06:16:08 thanks! 06:16:13 Hehehehe. :-) 06:16:19 Do you know what assembly you'll be learning? 06:16:25 Just out of curiosity. 06:16:29 let me check 06:16:33 :-) 06:16:55 At university, we were taught VAX assembly, but I was hardcore and taught myself x86 assembly. 06:17:15 (Okay, x86 assembly isn't all that hardcore, but more hardcore than what they teach at the university I went to.) 06:17:30 Obviously, said university didn't have reverse-engineering courses either. :-P 06:17:49 : ) 06:17:53 so your a hacker 06:18:16 No, not quite; I just reverse-engineer for fun, not for a living. I have a good friend who does do RE for a living. 06:18:20 the book is called "essentials of 80x86 assembly language 06:18:30 Nice, x86 assembly, woo! 06:18:44 dskippy [~dskippy@209-6-28-198.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:18:47 but im sure it will be bare basics 06:18:57 Well, but you can teach yourself the rest, I'm sure. 06:19:13 For the purposes of security work, x86 assembly is probably the most useful to know. 06:19:28 yeah i try to learn a bit before the class starts just in case the textbook/professor is terrible 06:19:30 Just because most computers out there run x86, and so you can analyse x86 shellcode, etc. 06:19:42 hmm thats going to be good for motivation : ) 06:19:53 Yep. :-) 06:20:18 last semester we learned discrete math with 0 emphasis on how it is applied 06:20:26 Hahahahahahaha. 06:20:39 i still do not know why the hell we need relations etc... 06:21:02 A lot of discrete maths is really useful for programming, but, often it's hard to realise at the time. :-) 06:21:06 relations? 06:21:34 yeah like (x, x) for all x is a set 06:21:39 You'll use that *a lot* if you do a CS cursus 06:22:12 or if (x, y) is in a set, it implies (y, x) is in a set 06:22:14 stuff like that 06:22:16 Yes. 06:22:20 Think "typing" 06:22:26 or, subtyping. 06:22:34 -!- tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:22:43 "A is a subtype of B" does not mean "B is a subtype of A" 06:22:48 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:23:34 are you referring to formal fallacies? 06:23:37 And then transitivity. A is a subtype of B, B is a subtype of C, so you can cast a A as C. 06:23:38 in logic 06:23:50 I'm referring to *real* uses of a relation. 06:24:00 ok nvm i understand 06:24:15 Subtyping relation being one you can grasp easily if you do use a language with casts. 06:24:18 eugene_trileski: there are many uses of relations in programming, but they aren't always immediately obvious. 06:24:26 it would help to have some real comp sci problems to solve using these concepts 06:24:45 eugene_trileski: how about "proving that two programs do the same thing"? 06:24:45 when i learn a new programming language it is easy to find problems 06:25:10 compilers are kind of teachers but with math it is much harder to see beyond 06:25:11 That's a real problem. And it's going to be "find two programs P1 and P2 that are in the same equivalence class" 06:25:31 eugene_trileski: I agree. It's unfortunate that so many computer science (and math) classes lack any exploration of application or intuition. 06:26:05 motivation system (at least for me) makes it extremely difficult to learn when divorced from real problems 06:26:13 and the history behind concepts 06:26:25 eugene_trileski: but that doesn't mean that the intuition or applications don't exist... math is sort of useless without application. 06:26:36 of course i understand that 06:27:15 i am merely saying it is much harder to find motivation without previous exploration of the background needed to understand why i am learning it 06:27:42 eugene_trileski: things will come in time. You'll be needing that basic knowledge sooner than later if you go to grad school. 06:28:22 Telling you *now* why/how it's useful/needed in practice may just kill you instead of making you willing to know more. 06:28:23 is there a point for it for software engineering? 06:28:26 eugene_trileski: for example, '=' and '<' are relations 06:28:53 eugene_trileski: Yes. That's training your brain for formal reasoning. 06:29:11 i meant to say is grad school needed for soft eng 06:29:36 eugene_trileski: of course, for integers, = and < are obvious, but when you're designing new types, classes, etc., knowing about how the relations work help you design those types better 06:29:38 I don't know. I do not plan to be a software engineer. I like CS too much to ever want to do IT. 06:30:15 hmm thanks 06:30:58 i actually almost went for neuroscience phd and changed my mind right before graduation : ) 06:31:07 Axioplase_: Software engineering is very far from IT. 06:31:14 eugene_trileski: if you write some new class, how do you decide whether two instances of a class = each other? And what if it doesn't make sense for them to = each other? the mathematics will definitely help you there 06:31:28 i see 06:31:49 i was pretty much inspired to go into the field by two people 06:32:01 Paul Grahm and 06:32:21 Jeff Hawkins i think 06:32:25 he wrote On Intelligence 06:32:49 eugene_trileski: anyway. Learning things like relations, orders and preorders *should* make you a better man. Listen to people around you, you'll see flaws in their reasonings. They think that "A implies B" and "B" mean you have "A". When you hear that, you should think "oh gawd. It's going to take time to convince them". And you'll know how to explain things to them. Or how to stop arguing and rather go to movie theater instead of was 06:33:07 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 06:33:13 dskippy: Is it? I should stop reading thedailywtf then 06:33:45 haha 06:34:22 Axioplase_: I don't read thedailywtf, but yes. IT and software engineering are very different things. I don't really think a CS degree will even help you do IT. 06:34:25 Axioplase_: it is. The IT field usually involves very little programming (usually only writing scripts to glue components together or configure some component). Software engineering is focused on programming. There are similarities, but the are distinct. 06:35:08 groovy2shoes: I think I'd even draw a distinction between IT and systems administration. 06:35:16 there is too much joy in building things for me to go into pure cs 06:35:34 dskippy: then do you draw a line between IT and technical support? ;) 06:35:45 Sysadmins do very little, but some, often bad (but it's okay) programming. IT people fix your MS Outlook when it breaks and install anti virus software for people who don't know how. 06:35:55 i dont know about other places but in NY, IT major is pretty much heavily watered down CS major with some management classes 06:35:55 eugene_trileski: the pure CS will help you build better things. 06:36:16 groovy2shoes: Sure, yes. My company has all four, actually. 06:36:48 groovy2shoes: And they're hired by different teams and have different jobs. 06:36:50 dskippy: I think many companies consider system administration and technical support as subsets of IT. 06:37:13 groovy2shoes: Sure. You can use the words as you'd like. Here's what my company has: 06:37:45 dskippy: at the very least, many universities in the US have an IT department that handles the two, usually in addition to Web development (which usually results in terrible Web sites) 06:38:18 IT (they fix my computer if it breaks and they run the outlook servers) Sysadmins (They make sure out product is always on line and maining the development servers. Developers (they write the actual product) Tech support ( they answer phone calls from the customers who can't figure stuff out) 06:39:08 groovy2shoes: Yeah, but you asked me if I would draw a distinction. And I do. Since I have been at a company that does. I never said that no one ever calls them the same or lumps them together. 06:39:10 dskippy: that makes sense. But can you see where the distinction between IT and tech support might be blurred? 06:39:17 and there is a hierchy within soft eng and administrators as well 06:39:21 dskippy: :) 06:39:33 like there are administrators in my college that get paid quite a lot and are very educated 06:39:35 groovy2shoes: Yes. Of course. 06:39:42 dskippy: the problem is that many companies lump anything "computer" into the same category 06:40:03 groovy2shoes: a software engineer should *never* work for them. 06:40:20 dskippy: which is why there are websites like the daily WTF ;) 06:40:28 i think thats why a nerd should stay away from business/finance sector 06:40:37 groovy2shoes: A CS student should also never go to a school whose CS department is part of the business school. :) 06:40:41 and go into companies by engineers for engineers 06:40:53 eugene_trileski: there are actually some really bright people working in the finance sector. 06:41:02 yeah thats not what i meant 06:41:18 they just generally dont treat comp sci people as well as pure soft based companies 06:41:26 even if they pay more $ 06:41:31 Finance is actually a great place for deep math/cs if you're at the right place. 06:41:58 eugene_trileski: the key to having a successful company is the recognization that everything is multidisciplinary, and you need many different types of people to do what you need to do. An engineering company should never shun businessman or artists, and vice versa. 06:42:01 The work is interesting. The output is, to me, boring. Just pushing money. 06:42:22 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 06:42:31 dskippy: yeap, if i can get some better grades i am going to aim for a masters in financial math I reckon 06:43:21 dskippy: I agree with that, although there are some interesting algorithms for pushing money 06:43:24 lewis1711: Good luck. 06:43:42 Interesting output is what drives me as a programmer... 06:43:50 groovy2shoes: Yep. The work's interestingness is not reflected in the how cool the output is. 06:44:07 Indeed. 06:44:18 I work in health care. Lots of cool problems. A little more interesting result than finance in my opinion, but that's just me, 06:44:18 dskippy: I see ads from Jane Street all the time. :-P 06:44:33 dskippy: They are a hedge fund company that codes in OCaml, from what I read. 06:44:40 dskippy: although, for some people, stacks of money constitute intersting output ;) 06:44:45 Seriously? That's awesome. 06:44:49 cky: you are correct 06:44:58 I'd go to a hedge fund for a better programming language. :) 06:45:12 haha 06:45:17 I really like ocaml 06:45:23 Yeah, I'd rather code in OCaml all day than Java, that's for damn sure. 06:45:25 Me too. 06:45:26 I should work on my CAS thingee in ocaml actually 06:46:01 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:12 -!- xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-pwgrrpiaijqveyvt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:49 About time for me to hit the ol' dusty trail. G'night! 06:51:50 xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-iqnkkaivwjajfqmf] has joined #scheme 06:52:06 -!- groovy2shoes [~guv@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: groovy2shoes] 06:55:26 gn everyone 06:57:56 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.219.121] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:58:05 phao [~phao@189.107.219.121] has joined #scheme 07:06:45 -!- eugene_trileski [~eugene@pool-71-249-127-12.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:09:47 cky: yeah I see the same add all the time 07:11:15 ad 07:13:23 yes, that 07:13:24 :) 07:15:59 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 07:16:37 night, guys 07:17:26 Have fun! 07:19:54 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:20:23 -!- imran_sr [~imran@75-18-254-4.lightspeed.uncyca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:22:36 -!- dskippy [~dskippy@209-6-28-198.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:22:41 dskippy [~dskippy@209-6-28-198.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 07:26:18 dskippy1 [~dskippy@209-6-28-198.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 07:26:18 -!- dskippy [~dskippy@209-6-28-198.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:18 myu2_ [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:27:27 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:30:46 -!- StephenFalken [email@89-180-154-196.net.novis.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:08 StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #scheme 07:37:01 Jane Street is no more in Japan :'( 07:49:54 but I thought functional programming was the key to fame and fortune 07:51:30 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:52:36 I hope F# becomes trendy. if nothing else it could bring FB to the dilberts 07:52:39 *FP 07:55:45 k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:56:53 -!- k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58:54 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:59:26 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:00:16 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:00:39 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:03:04 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:03:50 I hope FP never becomes mainstream. 08:04:09 Or it will cease becoming the key to fame and fortune. 08:04:26 Axioplase_: The Shiodome office closed? 08:05:28 foof: I heard they closed it last year (2010) 08:06:21 I interviewed there last year. 08:06:58 the home page only lists HK, London and NY. 08:07:04 foof: and? 08:08:43 I dunno, they gave math and difficult logic puzzles, I solved them easily, still didn't get an offer. 08:09:20 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 08:09:29 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:09:49 ... maybe because they were closing? 08:10:00 maybe they closed because they didn't hire you 08:10:01 -!- xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-iqnkkaivwjajfqmf] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:10:04 Ok. Good to know. If you didn't sign any NDA, I'd be glad to know more about their recruiting 08:10:38 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:10:40 bdmz [~chatzilla@adsl-190-157-93.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 08:15:17 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:19:20 foof: how are the logic puzzles difficult if you solved them easily? 08:19:39 do you know what these words mean or are you just bandying them about to sound intelligent? 08:22:15 foof doesn't need to "sound" intelligent; foof _is_ intelligent, for writing a cool Scheme implementation. :-D 08:23:01 lewis1711: I'm just trying to sound intelligent, and failing badly. I'll go back to my soaps now. 08:23:14 lewis1711: Bow to a Scheme implementor, you peon! 08:23:16 :-P 08:24:00 cky: you should know I'll have a go at anyone;) 08:24:17 foof, what sort of math puzzles? 08:25:15 does anyone *want* to work on trading software anyway? 08:25:36 *cky* doesn't; was quite burnt out. 08:26:53 kilimanjaro: google for goldman sachs interviews and you'll get a feel for the types of questions they ask 08:27:06 sbrtgr, I don't have much desire to 08:27:16 ughhh 08:27:23 I give up with this slib thing 08:27:25 what a nightmare 08:28:00 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:32 cky: interesting! how long were you in that line if I may ask 08:33:02 sbrtgr: Hahaha, not all that long; my comment was kind of facetious. :-) 08:34:44 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:34:48 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:35:07 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:35:14 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:35:46 cky: OK, I was already stalking you. (Our personality types differ in one letter BTW.) 08:36:07 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 08:36:07 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:36:22 sbrtgr: That's hilarious. 08:36:31 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:37:03 sbrtgr: Why, are you an active SO user? Or where have you heard of me from? 08:39:18 cky: I'm just a haskell user branching out a bit (I googled your name, and you mention your personality type on wikipedia) :) 08:40:16 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:40:19 Ah, I see. Hmm, my Wikipedia user page isn't the first thing that (should) come up when Googling my name. :-P 08:40:42 Usually, it'd be something like my SO profile, or LinkedIn, or something. 08:40:49 well your linkedin is there too 08:40:56 Hehehe. 08:43:13 sbrtgr: My short stint with trading software was from a freelance project I did 3 years ago. 08:44:31 sbrtgr: My comment about being burnt out wasn't the nature of the project as such (which was why I said my comment was facetious), but rather that it was my first freelance project, and I had a lot of learning to do as far as project management was concerned. 08:45:34 sbrtgr: At the moment, I have a fulltime job that I'm happy in, so long may that last. :-) 08:45:49 cky: thanks for clarifying/sharing, that makes sense 08:45:59 :-) 08:46:00 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:46:08 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:46:35 -!- k04n is now known as Guest19043 08:47:26 In so saying, I have no regrets about that project at all. 08:48:47 If nothing else, I picked up a lot of very useful Java experience that helped me (in a big way) to get my current job. 08:52:31 xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-inbzzguxhsibsyki] has joined #scheme 09:01:57 -!- Guest19043 [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:19 k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 09:03:21 -!- k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:03:28 k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 09:03:47 -!- k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:49 k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 09:15:28 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 09:16:56 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:21:20 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:22:10 -!- StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:52 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #scheme 09:30:44 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:34:59 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:39:10 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:39:15 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #scheme 09:39:30 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 09:44:13 eli: got my C stuff working in racket. going well so far 09:51:12 -!- bdmz [~chatzilla@adsl-190-157-93.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 09:54:27 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:55:30 Jafet 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has joined #scheme 11:47:50 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:55:20 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 11:57:54 masm [~masm@bl19-147-25.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:59:22 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 12:08:44 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:09:59 schmir [~schmir@p54A914F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 12:14:14 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 12:18:57 k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:20:08 -!- k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22:00 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 12:48:39 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.90.215] has joined #scheme 12:48:39 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.90.215] has quit [Changing host] 12:48:39 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 12:48:58 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-135-2.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 12:49:18 zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-221-215.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:51:02 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-255-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:02:13 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 13:11:07 zevarito_ [~zevarito@r186-48-221-215.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 13:11:08 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-221-215.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:36:02 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 13:56:13 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 13:59:21 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A914F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:59:32 Is there a way to draw box and pointer diagrams using emacs? 14:00:07 It might have a dot-file mode... 14:02:04 Jafet: Ok. I was thinking if there is some way to use picture-mode to do some ascii box and pointer 14:10:49 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-150-108-29.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:13:53 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:20:05 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:20:23 artist mode 14:20:56 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 14:22:11 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #scheme 14:33:22 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-135-2.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:35:28 C-Keen: cool! thanks. 14:40:12 pleasure. 14:48:34 emacs has a mode just for drawing boxes? in vim I mapped the box characters manually 14:49:44 ,df picture-mode 14:49:49 oops :) 14:49:52 rien_: it's called picture-mode 14:50:10 there's also an "artist-mode", which is freehand 14:50:18 and artist-mode 14:50:28 you can use mouse 14:50:33 freehand? mouse? now that's insane. 14:50:40 I gotta try that when I have time 14:50:42 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-116-183.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 14:50:51 I wanna switch to emacs anyway for the lispyness 14:54:00 wait. Emacs is lispy? 14:54:19 well. more than notepad. 15:01:27 an iphone fart app is more lispy than notepad 15:02:39 -!- DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:02:49 no. steve jobs hates lisp. 15:03:33 bremner: At least that ban has been lifted, I heard. 15:03:53 ah, ok. ruin my rant with your rumour. 15:04:07 D'oh. :-P 15:06:04 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:18:02 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 15:19:11 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 15:24:45 ventonegro [~alex@200.150.183.81] has joined #scheme 15:28:13 dskippy [~dskippy@209-6-28-198.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 15:28:20 -!- dskippy1 [~dskippy@209-6-28-198.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:28:28 -!- dskippy [~dskippy@209-6-28-198.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #scheme 15:33:46 femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-241-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 15:35:17 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:47:24 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:48:49 qhe [~qhe2@134.134.137.75] has joined #scheme 15:49:48 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 15:56:56 bremner: there's Pixie Scheme for iOS in the AppStore. 15:57:46 yeah, but can you write apps in it? 15:58:09 bremner: Not really. You can write and execute code. 15:58:44 bremner: AFAIK, to be able to develop an iOS app on iOS, you would have to send the executable back to the AppStore, before being able to download it for execution. 15:59:19 Or perhaps just back to your Mac with iTune for development-time download. 15:59:24 s/download/installation/ 16:21:23 is pixie scheme the name of what that iScheme app is running? 16:32:33 carleastlund [~cce@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:35:34 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:43:19 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 16:48:51 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:28 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:02 bitweiler [~bitweiler@adsl-99-40-239-167.dsl.stl2mo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:53:56 -!- corruptmemory 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((lambda (x) (if (number? x) (display x) (x 20))) (call/cc (lambda (cc) cc))) ;; why does this causes lambda to be called twice? 20:42:07 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #scheme 20:45:34 whats called twice? it prints 20 once for me 20:46:10 It's called once with the result value of (call/cc (lambda (cc) cc) 20:46:22 And then with the result of that call 20:46:48 but doing (x 20) shouldn't just change the value x is bound to? 20:46:51 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:47:35 jonrafkind, do ((lambda (x) (if (number? x) (print x) (begin (display x) (newline) (x 20)))) (call/cc (lambda (cc) cc))) 20:47:38 phao, I recommend using plt redex to understand how small-step machines work so you can fully grasp what continuations are 20:47:40 and you'll see it being called twice 20:47:52 rudybot: ((lambda (x) (if (number? x) (print x) (begin (display x) (newline) (x 20)))) (call/cc (lambda (cc) cc))) 20:47:53 jonrafkind: ; stdout: "#\n20" 20:48:30 it looks as if continuations cause jumps in program 20:48:36 yes! 20:48:40 That's the whole point of them 20:48:48 but (define cc (call/cc (lambda (cc) cc))) 20:48:49 (cc 20) 20:48:50 suckers 20:48:53 doesn't do the jump 20:48:58 it does! 20:49:05 I should get an error 20:49:09 phao: The first time it gets called with x = cc. cc is bound to the continuation of determining the first argument to the lambda 20:49:28 So once it's invoked it returns 20 to that continuation 20:49:41 That continuation carries on to call the lambda with 20 20:50:11 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:50:34 phao: continuations on the REPL toplevel are a little strange 20:50:46 REPL ... ? 20:51:17 I know what REPL stands for, but I never understood what that is 20:51:19 is it the interpreter? 20:51:28 The interpreter prompt 20:51:34 ok 20:51:36 Putting that last code in a file and running it should give an error 20:51:47 its just a small loop that reads some input from you, then passes it to the interpreter 20:52:01 so if I write "(define cc (call/cc (lambda (cc) cc))) (cc 20)" into a file 20:52:03 and load it 20:52:04 Because it first defines cc to be the continuation, then applies it and then cc is bound to 20, after which it is applied to 20, which is an error 20:52:05 I'll get an error? 20:52:12 ahh ok 20:52:15 that looks much better 20:52:49 Oddly, csi -e doesn't give an error on it 20:53:19 doesn't cause errors using csi 20:53:28 I runned csi, did (load "file.ss") 20:54:23 I don't know why that is 20:54:30 shouldn't be? 20:54:33 Compiling it causes the error when the program is run 20:54:41 And putting it in a (begin ...) also causes the error 20:54:49 yes.. compiling causes the error 20:54:51 maybe call/cc is expanded differently? 20:54:55 when interpreted 20:54:59 sounds like a bug 20:55:23 mebbe 20:56:57 rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 20:57:03 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:12 I get the error in csi when calling it a second time 20:57:26 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:26 of course 20:57:40 heh 20:59:30 Gauche also doesn't error on it 21:00:04 scheme48 does 21:00:05 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:00:09 maybe that's how it's supposed to work... a guy once told me that define uses set! to do stuff 21:00:26 but.. anyway 21:00:48 fiven that cc is a continuation.. what happens to the continuation when I do (cc 20) 21:00:57 given* 21:01:12 The continuation is invoked and 20 is returned by it 21:01:26 I mean... (call/cc (lambda (cc) (set! extern-name cc) 2)) 21:01:43 doing (cc 20) will cause that whole expression to "return" 20 21:01:43 The continuation happens to be a binding of cc to that value 21:01:47 but wht happens tot he continuation? 21:01:55 is it destroyed after I use it? 21:01:56 It gets garbage-collected 21:02:07 Since it's no longer reachable via a variable 21:02:20 ok 21:02:25 what if I use (extern-name 20) 21:02:36 What's extern-name? 21:02:49 something I defined before that expression with (define extern-name '()) 21:03:21 You can't apply the empty list to 20 21:03:47 but I set it to the continuation 21:04:35 oh sorry, I missed the set! thing 21:05:11 If you do that, then the global cc will be bound to the value you pass to extern-name 21:05:24 But extern-name will continue to refer to the continuation that binds cc to a value 21:05:40 So by invoking it, you can assign new values to cc 21:06:09 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:06:34 so the continuation won't get distroyed? 21:07:06 No, why would it? 21:07:13 ok, don't know =) 21:11:52 yeah 21:12:03 interpreted scheme, on chicken, is different from compiled 21:12:22 if jumps were happening on the top level in chicken, this code would run forever 21:12:34 http://ix.io/1oq 21:12:48 compiled, it does, interpreted, it doesn't 21:13:22 schmir [~schmir@p54A914F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:14:56 The strange thing is that "the scheme programming language" is "talking" as if the "run forever" isn't supposed to happen 21:21:40 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:25:16 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:25:47 http://ix.io/1or -- in this code, when (retry 20) is called, does it cause fat to be rebound? 21:26:25 jonrafkind, I'm trying to use redex in mzscheme, but nothing... same for drscheme, plt-r5rs 21:26:44 what does "nothing" mean 21:26:54 > (redex (+ 3 2)) 21:26:55 reference to undefined identifier: redex 21:27:09 ok.. its not that simple 21:27:23 ok 21:27:24 start here http://redex.plt-scheme.org/ 21:28:18 i guess that book isn't free but its pretty useful (semantics engineering with plt redex) 21:30:23 what is it about? 21:32:39 its about proving aspects of languages, like how they work mechanically 21:33:56 right 21:36:01 k04n_ [~kn@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:36:26 redex is a term rewriting language that makes it easy to specify the rules associated with implementing language semantics 21:37:06 jonrafkind, drRacket debugger also helps a little 21:37:41 well sorta.. its hard to explain how redex is useful until you try it 21:37:49 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A914F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:39:10 http://ix.io/1ou -- in this code, doing (retry 20) causes a jump to the end of the function call, and not to the letrec header... is that right? 21:44:03 phao_ [~phao@189.12.242.251] has joined #scheme 21:44:15 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.240.74] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:44:21 -!- phao_ is now known as phao 21:45:26 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 21:47:48 -!- k04n_ [~kn@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:49:38 groovy2shoes [~guv@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme 21:50:50 RenardP [~chatzilla@modemcable209.113-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:51:35 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.242.100] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:01:34 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-214-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:34 Azuvix [~james@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:12:55 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 22:14:29 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:20:45 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-109-65-199-183.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:40 Caleb-- [thedude@109.65.199.183] has joined #scheme 22:39:59 wisey [~Steven@host86-150-108-29.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:42:58 -!- f8l [~f8l@77-255-12-39.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: Bed time? Wow. I never thought I'll have such thing...] 22:46:49 sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 22:47:31 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:05:29 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:06:11 -!- MapMan [mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:09:30 -!- sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:13:48 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:21:03 damn... I shouldn't have looked up the answer of an exercise on the internet 23:21:27 it was easy.. .I could have done it, but now that I looked up it on the web, I'll never be sure 23:21:35 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-116-183.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:24:52 phao: Hahaha, which exercise is it? 23:25:08 e3.3.1 from the scheme programming language 23:25:29 basically to write a recursive program usinc continuations instead of assignment and recursion 23:25:57 I thought of the answer, which was to use cons, to get two values returned 23:26:04 You didn;t have to look the answer up on the Internet, they're at the back of the book 23:26:09 Just so you know. ;-) 23:26:14 fds, hmm 23:26:15 hehehe 23:26:23 now I'm more prone to look up answers! 23:26:44 Hahahahaha. 23:26:48 The only person you cheat is yourself! 23:26:53 *cky* attempts the exercise. 23:27:05 phao: tspl3, or tspl4? 23:27:10 3 23:27:13 Cool. :-) 23:28:06 Bwahahahahahahaha. 23:28:29 you did it? 23:29:45 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@230.22.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:30:15 I'm working on it. 23:31:48 -!- copumpkin is now known as __copumpkin__ 23:32:29 -!- __copumpkin__ is now known as copumpkin 23:35:26 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:37:26 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:40:22 -!- Azuvix [~james@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:44:35 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 23:45:37 i had some wtf moments reading tspl4; then i realized it was r6rs. 23:46:05 so is 3 5? 23:46:14 I mean, is tspl3 r5rs? 23:46:22 Yes 23:46:29 good :) 23:46:49 *fds* also reads three 23:47:10 "The current report in this series is the "Revised5 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme" [14]." 23:48:41 k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:49:50 -!- RenardP [~chatzilla@modemcable209.113-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:31 -!- jensn [~ceres@c-83-233-145-103.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:51:02 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:54:46 phao: Score! I got it working. :-P 23:54:51 haha 23:54:54 did you use cons? 23:55:09 Originally, I did, but later I decided to use MV instead. 23:55:59 mv? 23:56:01 I'll lisppaste you my solution, if you like. 23:56:05 MV == multiple-values. 23:57:05 not sure what mv is 23:57:13 let me see 23:57:34 -!- dskippy [~dskippy@209-6-28-198.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:57:35 phao: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118575 23:57:38 jensn [~ceres@c-83-233-145-103.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #scheme 23:57:51 "receive" is a macro provided by SRFI 8. 23:58:23 right 23:58:27 I should have tried more 23:58:32 I think I'd have gotten the answer 23:58:50 phao: Did you actually write an answer in the end? 23:59:01 yes 23:59:06 (I don't know what the answers written by others look like, but would be keen to see if your attempts look like what I had.) 23:59:24 I don't have the atempts written down 23:59:33 I just have the final answer 23:59:41 Okay, well, you can send a link to that, also.