00:04:27 Well, mischievous New Year, UTC, all you Schemers. Apply your continuations into 2011. 00:05:41 speak prefix you not 00:05:41 (k-2010) 00:07:15 -!- accel [~accel_@unaffiliated/accel] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:07:16 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:36 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176193102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:20:45 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [~godless@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:20:47 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-238.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:21:07 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-238.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:21:15 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:32 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:49 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-156-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:22:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-156-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping 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[~xradionut@cpe-72-181-160-59.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:46:27 *elly* has used typed racket a little bit 01:46:46 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.146.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:48:35 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-81-55-129.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:44 *offby1* has typed on a typewriter a little bit 01:53:33 Bug, offby1: `type' got duplicated, but `racket' was lost. 01:53:42 But I can see that it's a good start. 02:10:03 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-81-55-129.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:14:53 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-81-55-129.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 02:25:33 masm [~masm@bl15-70-211.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 02:29:34 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-81-55-129.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:36:45 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-70-211.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:39:23 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:41:04 sigh 02:41:15 *offby1* closes the report with "As designed" 02:42:31 -!- knob [~anon@65-23-214-179.prtc.net] has quit [] 03:00:25 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 03:01:17 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-43-174.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 03:01:55 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-97-45.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:20:42 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:21:45 DrDuck [~duck@66-168-225-64.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:33:40 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:41:14 kanru1 [~kanru@61-228-157-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 03:46:57 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-196.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 03:47:29 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-43-174.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:49:17 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 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[~Unthahors@del63-3-88-177-167-25.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:57:00 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e0b815c.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 09:57:10 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:57:29 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e0b815c.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 10:02:12 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:13:21 *Caleb--* offs offby1 10:16:55 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-3-134.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 10:16:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:00 hi Caleb-- 10:17:07 mornings 10:17:21 happy ny 10:17:29 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-70-158.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:17:32 happy ny! 10:17:52 any resolutions? 10:19:03 to make it through the first university year ^_^ 10:19:14 wow good luck 10:19:29 I wish I would get back in school 10:20:24 it's tough 10:20:38 I was kicked out for bad grades 10:20:49 :( 10:20:52 :P 10:22:00 noonian [~noonian@c-98-232-230-23.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:22:27 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:22:41 phao [~phao@189.107.144.39] has joined #scheme 10:26:52 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27:17 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 10:27:17 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:27:17 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 10:36:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:41:53 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:42:30 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:48:42 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-23-154.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 10:49:25 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-3-134.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:05:18 femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-94-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 11:06:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11:19 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:28 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 11:19:22 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-54-12.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:19:53 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-23-154.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:25:58 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 11:26:05 do people sort lists? 11:26:42 I can imagine using quicksort, for example, in a vector, but it'd be strange on lists, since scheme lists are like linked lists. 11:26:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:38:08 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.144.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:38:34 phao: Look at merge sort, it is a natural choice for sorting lists. 11:38:46 phao [~phao@189.107.144.39] has joined #scheme 11:40:42 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 11:42:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-147.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:46:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:47:20 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.144.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:47:39 phao [~phao@189.107.168.119] has joined #scheme 12:02:42 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 12:03:58 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-54-12.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:06:44 nowhereman 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[~cce@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 13:01:47 Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.177.254] has joined #scheme 13:02:03 -!- devslashnull [~james@dyn-183.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 13:04:01 kuribas [~user@d54C434C6.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 13:13:19 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 13:16:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:22:11 DrDuck [~duck@66-168-225-64.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 13:22:27 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:27:35 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:27:41 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:32:32 Oejet [~oejet@212.45.122.120] has joined #scheme 13:33:40 -!- kephas 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14:09:14 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-15.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:16:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:28 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:35:15 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:43:03 hi 14:43:22 building large application with Scheme is good idea or not ? 14:48:30 mmc [~michal@cs181176169.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 14:52:30 bubo [~user@93-82-16-51.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 14:54:55 -!- bubo [~user@93-82-16-51.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 14:56:10 bubo [~user@93-82-16-51.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 14:56:20 -!- bubo [~user@93-82-16-51.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #scheme 14:56:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58:23 femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-94-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 15:01:44 Gmind, in general I would say it is a good idea. It may depend, though, on the specific requirements of your large application. 15:02:27 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:03:33 I'm writing AI 15:03:36 :P 15:03:40 is it suitable ? 15:03:47 Oh, absolutely. 15:04:27 HOw ? 15:04:43 and what advantage do you think Scheme can offer me at this domain ? 15:04:48 The only cases I would say "no" for are very specific requirements, like "my army of C++ coders need to be able to start writing it tomorrow" or "it needs to be compiled as part of the Linux kernel" or something. 15:05:35 Scheme is very powerful and flexible. It's like a more manageable version of Lisp, which has been use as an AI language for decades. You can write in any style you like, with lots of opportunities for code reuse, and it's very easy to add new features quickly. 15:06:14 :O 15:06:23 powerful ? 15:06:27 in AI ? 15:06:59 Powerful, as in a few lines of code can result in very complex and useful functions. It doesn't take pages and pages of code to get useful things done. 15:07:06 I'm trying to write one :P , but it's would be great if you show me some example ^ ^ 15:07:33 You do mean AI as in Artificial Intelligence, yes? What kind of AI system are you trying to write? 15:10:52 yep 15:11:01 Starcraft AI system 15:11:05 =)) 15:11:12 based on BWAPI 15:11:41 A quick Google search for "artificial intelligence scheme" gives links to an online tutorial from a University of Indiana AI course, a blog from a Scheme-based AI project, and an Amazon listing for a Scheme textbook based on AI programming. I think the web may get you started faster than I can, in terms of Scheme + AI. 15:14:15 If you want to get started in Scheme, I can point you to my favorite dialect of Scheme, known as Racket, at www.racket-lang.org -- it has online documentation including a quick-start guide, and it has a C/C++ foreign function interface, which you'll presumably need to get Scheme to work with the C++-based BWAPI. 15:14:59 If, on the other hand, BWAPI has to run as part of a larger C++ runtime, you may be stuck with C++ as your only option. I know various Schemes can call C++ code, but I'm not sure C++ programs can call Scheme code, so it depends how your Starcraft AI has to be run. 15:15:59 there are schemes that can be embedded in c/++ applications 15:16:21 Thank you, ecraven. I stand corrected. :) 15:17:02 Well... I sit in front of my keyboard corrected, anyway. 15:17:16 chicken and guile at least, as far as i know 15:18:56 carleastlund: working with Scheme FFI and C++ is a pain (as I know) So instead of BWAPI C++ native, I have BWAPI on .NET 15:18:59 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:18 I have built a library on F# 15:19:25 and attempting to call it from IronScheme 15:19:37 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 15:19:56 to avoid property, type conflict, from the bwapi-clr itself 15:20:02 Ah. I see. Well, I'm not sure about Scheme/.NET interaction. If you can get it going, great. If not, F# is a functional language -- other than the type system, probably very similar to programming in Scheme. 15:20:50 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 15:22:11 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:52 ya ya ^ ^ 15:24:21 I mean, it doesn't matter on using lib problem, but on really large system of AI 15:24:51 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:01 As I see, I must impl every single function in SCheme if not using my already built F# lib 15:26:37 I'm not quite sure what you're saying -- is it that you can't get Scheme to call F# functions? 15:26:59 oh no 15:27:00 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:27:02 I mean 15:27:14 Having fun, Gmind? 15:27:15 to make a working AI on Scheme 15:27:25 Happy new years, guys :) 15:27:34 ya elderK, do I know you ? HPNW through 15:27:44 Happy 2011, elderK. And everyone. :) 15:28:00 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 15:28:01 You might, Gmind. Give it a little time, we'll see. 15:28:02 :) 15:28:10 why =)) 15:28:15 :D How'd you guys spend New Yaers? 15:28:19 PLease, I'm scared of secret 15:28:58 I see that someone still trying to meet Mr.Lambda in new year eve 15:29:02 =) 15:29:14 Gmind, I'm still not sure what you're saying. You say "must impl[ement] every single function in Scheme" -- what alternative are you comparing this to? 15:29:27 carleastlund: don't feed him. 15:29:35 *elderK* points to the sign 15:29:57 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 15:29:58 *elderK* also points to the ball of yarn, sitting unassumingly in the corner 15:30:05 =.= 15:30:24 ^_^ It's new year! 15:30:43 It's a time to think abotu the things we are grateful for :D That we are proud of, that we can accomplish in the year to come! 15:30:56 To be proud for those around us, who in the year since past, have made such progress in their lives. 15:31:05 To be proud of our own small victories. 15:31:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:31:14 And to remember, that we started off, just as many are starting out now. 15:31:31 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:31:39 *elderK* waves pompoms slightly 15:31:44 Seeeee? 15:31:47 *elderK* waves again for effect 15:31:52 *Gmind* like the proud of small victories 15:33:30 :/ Btw, peeps, 15:33:32 if you had a choice, 15:33:39 would you host yourself or use some external host? 15:33:44 For say, a personal website. 15:34:03 ~_~ It seems liek a waste of money to pay say, 20-40$ a month for CGI/SQL/Whatever - for something like that, 15:34:13 when I could just spend a few hours setting up a distribution and domain. 15:34:21 Stupid laziness. 15:34:21 :P 15:34:29 If I had my choice? I would have my own personal multi-billion-dollar international software company host my website. But then, I don't get the choice to have one of those... yet. ;) 15:34:50 :P Nuts! 15:38:15 carleastlund: isn't AI on Scheme based on searching, planning, learning Algorithm ? 15:38:31 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:38:58 Gmind, Scheme is a general-purpose programming language. You can write any kind of AI you want in Scheme. 15:43:12 -!- Oejet [~oejet@212.45.122.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:45:46 Oejet [~oejet@212.45.122.120] has joined #scheme 15:47:24 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 15:51:47 ya 15:51:50 :P 15:52:05 the only thing I'm not sure about it 15:52:08 is 15:52:13 like the 1st question 15:52:29 will it stable and suitable when it get large or even huge ? 15:53:11 Stable, certainly. Suitable, really depends on what you mean by that. 15:53:41 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:55:01 mean I don't get mad when it get large =)) 15:55:42 Ah, performance-wise. If you pick a fast Scheme implementation, it'll be fine. There are plenty with good performance. 15:55:45 and even when F# have type system, it don't have such power macros system as Scheme 15:56:05 *powerful 15:58:03 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:59:09 perhaps you can suggest me some book on this domain :P 15:59:20 ( I have just get started w/ Scheme, through) 16:00:40 On getting started with Scheme? There's "The Little Schemer" for just playing around with the basics, "How to Design Programs" for learning a systematic method of programming in Scheme, and "The Seasoned Schemer" and "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" for more advanced topics in Scheme once you're ready for them. 16:01:29 The second one, "How to Design Programs", is available free online, so it's an easy place to start. The other ones cost money. ;) 16:02:23 I will avoid HTDP, welcome SCIP, and already got my Little Schemer 16:02:26 :)) 16:04:25 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 16:04:35 but haven't got any book on AI with SCheme 16:04:38 =.= 16:05:09 Avoid HTDP? Suit yourself. As for AI, any AI textbook should work -- you can write any AI algorithm you want in Scheme, once you know Scheme. 16:05:31 <_danb_> carleastlund: sicp is free 16:05:44 schmir [~schmir@p54A9120F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:05:50 I stand corrected again, then. Two free ones. 16:05:56 free for online reader only 16:06:01 <_danb_> there's also an info version for it :) 16:06:18 <_danb_> Gmind: no, I think it's genuinely free 16:06:43 <_danb_> it will teach you recursion vs iteration and that seems to ahve a lot to do with scheme; I haven't gotten into section 2 yet though 16:07:18 _danb_, I think he means HTDP, which is not downloadable. Yeah, you have to pay for an offline copy. So, only free conditionally. 16:07:28 that's right 16:07:35 carl got what I meant 16:07:38 ;) 16:07:53 On the other hand, if you're willing to pay for The Little Schemer, HTDP is probably worth the price as well. It basically expands on the ideas in The Little Schemer, in a lot more detail. 16:07:57 <_danb_> well, if you do section 1 of sicp you'll learn basic lisp, evaluation and recusrion/iteration; it's great 16:08:15 (Just my opinion, and full disclosure -- I know the authors of these books. But I don't make a dime myself if you buy them.) 16:08:16 :P 16:08:35 <_danb_> carleastlund: you're saying HTDP is like a superset of what the little schemer is? 16:08:41 <_danb_> sounds like I should just do it instead 16:08:51 I really find SCIP useful although at 1st I read HTDP for basic stuff 16:09:14 Yes. They even share an author -- he basically took the ideas of The Little Schemer and built a much larger curriculum around them. 16:10:13 hey, carleastlund , do you really know what to do with Scheme when you encounter a problem ? 16:10:18 :P 16:10:28 Do I? Certainly, I've been programming in it for years. 16:10:57 =)) 16:11:14 I'm questioning myself that question 16:12:21 Add more test cases, add contracts/assertions to check your function interfaces, experiment at the REPL, add logging output -- lots of ways to debug Scheme programs. 16:13:18 <_danb_> carleastlund: I do a lot js; every now and then I like to return early in a function if a condition means there's no point continuing; returning doesn't seem to be a lisp thing or at least I haven't come across it -- is that the case? 16:13:46 <_danb_> I have a vague notion of continuations but that means you're coming back at some future point 16:14:22 <_danb_> (I've come across it in elisp, I think ) 16:14:39 _danb_, "no point in continuing" only makes sense in a statement-based language. But continuations will do what you want, and they don't have to mean you're coming back. Continuations are overkill -- generally I just structure my program to return what it needs to return, and you can always raise and catch exceptions if you really want to jump out fast. 16:15:20 *sjamaan* thinks and-let* is useful for those kinds of cases BTW 16:15:37 Sorry, I mean "in statement-based code". Which can be written in Scheme, but doesn't need to be. 16:16:26 If you program functionally -- just write expressions to produce results -- a function returns whenever it has computed its answer, which to me seems like exactly the right time. :) But you can use exceptions or escape continuations to build a "return" functionality. 16:16:44 <_danb_> hm interesting 16:17:02 <_danb_> I'm trying to mount a case for returning as a shortcut I guess 16:17:10 <_danb_> but maybe you're saying that should not be part of the function to begin with 16:17:36 With BWAPI , I have travelled around many AI impl of many difference languages to find something I can get into and write my AI in my own understanding ( as I know how to do things). F# was my special case since I can both writing my AI and learning the language at the same time naturally on myself. What do you guys think about this ? 16:17:54 I'm saying I would, in general, build the shortcut into the program's logic, rather than build the program to do things the "slow" way and then sidestep that with a "return" statement. But Scheme lets you program however you want. 16:17:54 <_danb_> (shortcut as in "stop here, no point going on") 16:18:19 _danb_: Usually, you'd write an IF around that 16:18:25 It depends a bit on the situation 16:18:34 <_danb_> sjamaan: yes, but sometimes return seems easier 16:18:42 <_danb_> less branching and indentation :) 16:18:45 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:18:46 _danb_, generally, if you want the program to stop and return (for instance) false, you just write #f. Which immediately returns #f, the false value. 16:18:47 In JS maybe 16:18:58 *Gmind* questioning this before jumping in Scheme 16:19:33 <_danb_> (I'm not saying I do it a lot) 16:19:54 <_danb_> maybe the function is a hook that gets called at some point etc etc 16:20:11 _danb_: In Scheme, what you could do is make a local helper function and do (if #f (helper)) 16:20:53 _danb_, I think the answers we've given can be summed up: "it can be done easily, but is not common practice in Scheme". So if you want to program that way, go for it! And if you need help building "return" in Scheme, I'm sure plenty of us can give suggestions. 16:21:09 Right 16:21:20 <_danb_> appreciate the comments, thanks 16:23:09 <_danb_> sjamaan: js is not too far of scheme in some ways :) ; I'm already doing helper functions like this: (function() { module.publicFunc = function(){...use helper...}; var helper = function(){...} ... ))(); 16:23:18 Gmind, in answer to your question above, I have no idea whether you'll find Scheme as natural as F#. There's really no way anyone can know that but you. 16:23:40 _danb_: JS is very close to Scheme in some ways, yet far away in some ways too 16:23:45 <_danb_> (function(){...})(); is kind of like a let-binding 16:23:52 I write a lot of JS too 16:24:55 <_danb_> I found I like writing in js more than ruby 16:25:02 *sjamaan* too 16:25:10 <_danb_> and I have a vague feeling it means I'd probably like scheme and the lisp way of thinking 16:25:19 Ruby has even more weird little rules than JS 16:25:24 At least JS is kind of regular 16:25:24 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-94-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:50 <_danb_> ruby forces you to think in classes and to name stuff -- as in oop (although you can do anonymous dynamic stuff like Class.new as well) 16:25:59 And lambda 16:26:07 Except it leaks "local" variables :) 16:26:15 <_danb_> lisp/scheme stick have functions as the basic unit 16:26:17 Or is that just blocks? 16:26:34 <_danb_> s/stick// 16:27:18 Just about every language has functions as the basic unit -- they just don't know it or won't admit it. ;) 16:27:23 JS would be regular if browser implementors sucked less! :-P 16:27:36 fds: JS has plenty of quirks of its own 16:27:43 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:27:45 The browsers just add to the mes 16:27:47 mess 16:28:02 But it's mostly the DOM and events API where they mess things up 16:28:12 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 16:28:16 <_danb_> but, I think it's fantastic stroke of luck we got js with higher-order/anonymous ufnctions, closures etc 16:28:21 <_danb_> in the browser 16:28:26 unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #scheme 16:28:40 <_danb_> I won't start needlessly quoting Douglas Crockford at this point.... :) 16:28:41 If Eich would've had his way, we'd have Scheme in the browser :( 16:28:50 sjamaan: Yeah, it probably does. I'm not a JS expert. But in my limited experience it wasn't too bad, but I hit a few browser incompatibility/inconsistency issues (as it's apparently imopssible not to) 16:29:01 Management didn't agree and wanted to ride the Java hype, IIRC 16:29:06 <_danb_> sjamaan: though I get the feeling he wants it to be less like that now; maybe I'm wrong... 16:29:12 <_danb_> some people want 'class' and all that stuff 16:29:25 yeah, but I'm not sure if that's Eich driving that effort 16:29:46 <_danb_> as for me, I just live on the closures, higher order/anonymous functions; hang the rest: prototypes, inheritance, classes, all that nonsense :) 16:29:56 :) 16:32:27 -!- unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:33:28 Nisstyre65 [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 16:34:13 <_danb_> I am actually trying to figure out why I like this style of programming over a strictly oop / class-based approach, but I am having trouble coming up with a reason I could argue for 16:34:33 _danb_: Functional programming = less state 16:34:36 less state = less bugs 16:34:49 <_danb_> well, you see I like closures and encapsulation 16:35:08 <_danb_> but I'm leery of breaking everything down into (named) classes and subclasses 16:35:17 <_danb_> I htink it's more brittle; but I can't argue for why 16:35:33 It's more brittle because class hierarchies make no sense 16:35:38 FP is much easier to reason about than OOP -- function calls do not result in dynamic method lookup. Inheritance makes it very hard to figure out exactly what's going to happen when you call a method. FP always does what the code says it does. 16:35:50 <_danb_> but do closures fit in fp? 16:35:54 yes 16:35:58 <_danb_> you see I like state and encapsulation 16:36:06 <_danb_> and meld that with having modules and functions 16:36:13 <_danb_> and the helper pattern I use in js above 16:36:39 <_danb_> My replacement for oop is "layers" 16:36:54 azathoth99 [~g@207-180-177-44.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:36:55 <_danb_> where a "layer" is roughly speaking a "module" 16:37:10 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:37:18 <_danb_> you build up sophistication and complexity in a series of well-chosen layers 16:37:22 as far as netowrk abstraction? I see that tcl has this event driven stuff? does scheme has good netowrking abstractions? 16:37:23 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A9120F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:37:48 Gavino alert 16:38:14 happy new year sjamaan 16:38:29 hows the communism? 16:38:42 Can someone kick this clown? 16:39:03 No, scheme apps never need to talk over the network; after all, most of the servers out there on the network aren't written in Lisp, so have nothing useful to say anyway. 16:39:44 is there a module htat enbles easy network rogramming in scheme? 16:39:48 a rfi perhaps? 16:39:55 is there a very common rfi? 16:40:01 just in general wondering 16:42:26 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:43:06 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:43:33 -!- Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.177.254] has left #scheme 16:56:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:02:27 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:10:16 jao [~jao@237.pool85-50-132.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 17:10:16 -!- jao [~jao@237.pool85-50-132.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Changing host] 17:10:16 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 17:19:11 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 17:26:40 j-invariant [~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant] has joined #scheme 17:26:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28:23 racket scheme has all these number types.. but how do i add my own number system? 17:29:05 I want to add a symbol 'w to the numbers with 1 + w + w^2 = 0 so e.g. (1 + w)^2 = -w 17:30:06 zevarito [~zevarito@190.132.24.153] has joined #scheme 17:32:30 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:34:26 sounds like a computer algebra system 17:35:08 Eisenstein numbers 17:35:36 I should have said (expt (+ 1 'w) 2) 17:43:24 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:46:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:48:28 SICP chapter 2 17:48:45 2.4, if you're impatient like me 17:50:14 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:51:24 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-4dbed31f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:51:36 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfd0d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 17:52:29 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:53:46 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:08 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:59:05 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 18:02:28 unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #scheme 18:03:42 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 18:06:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:08:29 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #scheme 18:12:29 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:10 -!- j-invariant [~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:32:26 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:34:58 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:51 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:46:37 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 18:46:54 *offby1* idly wonders what it means to add a symbol to a number 18:47:01 (+ 1 'w) => '1w ? 18:49:54 I believe j-invariant was using 'w to represent the first complex cube root of 1. See: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/EisensteinInteger.html 18:51:04 My question is why he didn't just define w to be the appropriate complex constant. But it sounded like he wanted to do symbolic math. 18:51:06 Yeah, but he should've said (+ 1 w) because he was referring to what w represented, not the symbol w itself (I guess) 18:51:20 Shouldn't he? 18:51:25 *offby1* nods gravely 18:56:30 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@109.67.18.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:58:28 hi all. I need a naming suggestion 18:59:21 which name is better for a library providing fp utilities for js coders 18:59:30 "funk" vs "functools" 19:01:53 the latter 19:03:01 masm [~masm@bl15-70-211.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 19:04:51 my vote is for functools too 19:06:50 hmm 19:07:30 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@246-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 19:12:32 James Brown might beg to differ. 19:12:42 He'd say "Please, Please, Please ... name it 'Funk'" 19:12:58 :-) 19:13:24 -!- mmc [~michal@cs181176169.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:44 haha 19:15:49 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 19:16:50 nmg [~nickga@host81-131-156-38.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:16:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:27 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:25:05 carleastlund_ [~cce@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:25:16 mmc [~michal@cs181176169.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:25:54 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #scheme 19:27:10 -!- carleastlund [~cce@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:27:10 -!- carleastlund_ is now known as carleastlund 19:28:35 mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:35:43 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 19:41:28 -!- mmc [~michal@cs181176169.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:45 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:54:15 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.236.50] has quit [Quit: Time left until the Epochalypse: 27yrs 2wks 3days 13hrs 19mins 26secs] 19:56:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:39 TR2N [~email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #scheme 20:02:29 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:05:18 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:51 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:45 -!- DrDuck [~duck@66-168-225-64.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:26:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:30:44 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:45 -!- azathoth99 [~g@207-180-177-44.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #scheme 20:40:42 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:42 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:52:17 -!- noonian [~noonian@c-98-232-230-23.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:56:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:27 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:09:38 dualbus [~dualbus@201.170.71.87.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #scheme 21:11:35 -!- daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #scheme 21:18:54 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@190.132.24.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:26:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:28:58 DrDuck [~duck@66-168-225-64.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 21:35:35 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 21:38:36 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:39:39 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:40:45 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:41:37 j-invariant [~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant] has joined #scheme 21:42:27 -!- DrDuck [~duck@66-168-225-64.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:49:21 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #scheme 21:51:39 -!- churib_ [~churib@95.156.194.105] has left #scheme 22:08:42 does racket scheme have a way to add new number data types? 22:15:56 you mean you want things like + to operate differently on your own type? 22:16:58 you can't do that with the + that already exists 22:18:49 yeah thats what I want 22:20:06 the dispatch rules for + are hardcoded somewhere 22:20:10 of course, you can write your own + if you want 22:20:40 maybe I can write my own + which uses the default one on the built in number types 22:20:46 I'll try it 22:20:46 yea 22:20:53 it just wont work with libraries, but maybe thats ok 22:21:07 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:21:11 -!- nmg [~nickga@host81-131-156-38.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:21:50 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:12 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:27 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:42:59 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:55:48 dfeuer [~dfeuer@pool-74-96-191-205.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:55:48 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@pool-74-96-191-205.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:55:48 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 23:06:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-147.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:37 mwolfe [~michael@64.134.236.120] has joined #scheme 23:12:28 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:13:47 Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-181-24-53.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 23:15:26 Is there a scheme that is efficient enough for embedded systems (32Mb ram)? 23:16:09 I was thinking about te zipit z2 with linux on it. 23:16:23 Maybe chicken? 23:18:11 hmm... "Builtin support for cross-compiling applications for embedded targets" 23:19:15 I guess that has nothing to do with embedded devices... 23:19:24 Why not? 23:19:28 Chibi should work well too. 23:22:52 *kuribas* looks at chibi. 23:23:09 Yes, that one I could use also. 23:31:56 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfd0d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:32:08 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-4dbecee8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:24 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:35 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e0b815c.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 23:39:10 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 23:56:59 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:58:58 -!- somnium [~user@184.42.0.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]