00:02:55 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 00:04:32 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A911EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:57 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-254.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 00:08:12 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-90-155.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:25 Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.186.33] has joined #scheme 00:26:02 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:23 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-254.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:30 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-48-249.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 00:32:02 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:35:09 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.242.33.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:03 -!- DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:40:03 -!- bluesky11 [~bluesky11@frbg-4d0286ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:48:28 -!- Oejet [~oejet@212.45.122.120] has left #scheme 00:56:43 cky: :P heck, did you use Binet fomula in the last fib ? (which use round and sqrt5 , add1) 00:58:38 Yes, he did. It's called the `closed-form' solution 00:59:35 and the other with (( n n) ( b 0) ( a 1)) is Quick exact computation of large individual Fib 00:59:56 =.= woow... I think lots of Algorithm and Math work I need to learn 01:00:50 btw, the Binet just can found number under 70 01:01:43 ok, I'm off 01:01:46 -!- Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.186.33] has left #scheme 01:04:35 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:06:34 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@245-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:07:30 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-143-194.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:11:22 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-48-249.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:41 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-21-126.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 01:13:28 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 01:13:45 qhe [~qhe2@192.55.55.37] has joined #scheme 01:17:45 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 01:17:46 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:38 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:27:03 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:20 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:34:30 aSean_ [~aSean@134-208-39-197.ndhu.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 01:35:01 -!- aSean [~aSean@134-208-39-197.ndhu.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:48:47 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfc80d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:48:56 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-5f77bd4b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 02:04:12 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:05:56 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-89-29-117.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:07:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:08:16 ysph [~user@adsl-89-29-117.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 02:12:27 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #scheme 02:12:32 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:14:58 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 02:15:25 -!- bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:20:46 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:25:39 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 02:29:32 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.195.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:36:14 knob [~anon@65-23-214-179.prtc.net] has joined #scheme 02:36:29 Good evening everyone =) 02:39:15 hi 02:39:24 :-P 02:43:02 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-89-29-117.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:47:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:31 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:59:10 helo 03:00:04 accel [~accel_@unaffiliated/accel] has joined #scheme 03:00:12 why isn't there any scheme implementation as elegant as lua? 03:00:17 if lua can do it, why can't scheme? 03:01:03 do what 03:01:26 "it" = have an elegant implementation 03:01:49 what does "elegant implemntation" mean 03:02:16 what does "attractive women" mean ? 03:02:32 ok so I assume you mean "implemented in C", so, most schemes are implemented in C 03:02:34 what more do you want? 03:02:42 spaces vs tabs or something? 03:02:43 readability 03:02:50 i find lua source surprisligly readable 03:02:54 I can't say the same of chicken or gambit 03:02:56 or plt 03:03:08 lua also has a "small" core + libraries 03:03:14 whereas with gambit/chicken, the core seems quite big 03:03:18 I realy this sounds subjective 03:03:26 jonrafkind: what scheme implementations have you read ? 03:03:50 im tuning out 03:05:10 -!- accel [~accel_@unaffiliated/accel] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:08:36 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:09:10 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #scheme 03:17:16 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 03:17:50 That was lulzy. 03:18:06 I think one commentator on this channel once mentioned that Chibi's implementation is quite readable. 03:18:14 Too bad accel isn't still here to read this. 03:18:25 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:19:35 I don't know what kind of person enters a channel to ask such a question. its like that monty python skit -- "i came here for an argument!" 03:19:44 i mean, assuming a non-troll person 03:20:24 Yeah, he didn't even have an example of what he wanted Scheme to do. 03:20:51 it was about C, not scheme 03:20:53 s/do/be/ I suppose 03:21:15 Oh, true, the implementation of Scheme in C 03:21:49 But whatever, it should be more like it should be! :-P 03:27:03 Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.186.33] has joined #scheme 03:28:16 Hm, possibly it - whatever it is - is because Lua is much closer to C than Scheme is? 03:29:07 yeah 03:29:10 it should be 03:29:51 lua doesn't have tail calls, but it does have first class functions (and non-broken lexical scope unlike python) 03:31:06 Hm, Lua does look nice. 03:32:09 and I think I heard rumors about it having some sort of macro system 03:32:19 but it was based on hacking yacc or something like that 03:32:55 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 03:33:24 Eep, sounds hairy 03:33:39 (lua was used as AI script tool for starcraft ) 03:34:20 Lua is used for a lot of game scripting, I hear, but it'd be interesting to see more games use Scheme instead! :-D 03:34:33 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:08 Indeed ;-) 03:36:44 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 03:36:53 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:37:58 =))) Cky: totally agreed 03:38:13 It's sound like Santa gift 03:38:45 in fact, 03:38:53 I was trying to make one for BWAPI 03:39:20 (with helping hand of Leppie ) 03:39:36 till he got married 03:39:39 =) 03:39:54 Not to you, I take it. ;-) 03:40:37 ??? 03:40:41 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 03:40:48 I don't know that scheme offers much for scripting languages. Maybe you could define a whole bunch of cool stuff with macros but I'm not sure how successful that would be. what other strenghts does scheme have? tail calls? useless most likely in that domain 03:40:54 -!- bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:41:27 jorafkind: but it's very useful in AI programming domain 03:41:53 in what way 03:42:01 I know nothing about embedding scripting languages, but don't let the Guile folk hear you talk like that. ;-) 03:42:02 somewhat clearer than other language 03:42:05 tailcalls you mean? or scheme 03:42:15 scheme 03:42:43 well.. it depends who you ask. the people writing scripts are most likely not CS people so they will barf on the prefix notation 03:42:46 fds: there are lots of embedded scripting languages, each have its own strength 03:43:02 people that know scheme will most likely know other langauges too, and I don't think scheme is any clearer than any other language 03:43:29 throw in higher-order stuff and the people writing scripts will run away 03:43:46 fds++ (re "not to you I take it") 03:43:50 yes it's, on the way it use prefix 03:43:56 Gmind: I'm sorry you didn't get fds's comment. 03:44:02 That ignores the fact that people who know scheme usually would think otherwise :) But you're right, it doesn't really fit well with the larger game scripting community etc. 03:44:09 cky: :P sorry if I misunderstood 03:44:38 Gmind: Expanded version: "leppie isn't getting married to you, I take it. ;-)" 03:44:48 it seems like the only argument for "scheme is clearer" is based on the simple application rule 03:45:01 cky: Heh :-) 03:45:03 as if infix notation is really that hard to understand 03:45:32 cky: LoL , of cause =))) 03:45:40 :-P 03:45:41 It's not about infix notation, it's about the epiphany and mental transformation that comes as you are learning scheme and/or lisp and things finally "click" 03:45:57 I like the way it use prefix 03:46:01 because 03:46:05 I have no idea what all that means 03:46:06 everything you are planning to do 03:46:11 you can do things "the scheme way" in any language 03:46:20 will be on prefix before it actually be implemented 03:46:25 jonrafkind: really? 03:46:31 yes, except for tail-calls 03:46:39 non-mutation. easy 03:46:42 ...or continuations, or multiple-values, or ... 03:46:44 Yes you can, and a scheme programmer will usually be reminding themselves of that and asking why they aren't just using scheme instead 03:46:53 who uses continuations? or multiple values? 03:47:18 jonrafkind: how do you do things 'the scheme way' in pascal without the result being hideous? 03:47:33 ok sorry, i should have said any language with first-class funcctions 03:47:39 jonrafkind: without parenthesis, any attempt follow Scheme, seem to be ambitious 03:47:40 so C is out too 03:48:08 Who uses continuations or multiple values? Scheme programmers do. 03:48:15 oh, thats awfully specific 03:48:23 yea i know a few people do, but most people dont 03:48:25 =)) I tried with F# 03:48:32 It's a matter of your mental map of how to program matches the language you're using 03:49:05 jonrafkind: I use multiple values a lot. 03:49:14 fine. i don't 03:49:33 (And when it comes to multiple values for example... i use them less in scheme than in python or ruby.) 03:49:33 nor does a lot of the scheme/racket source I've seen 03:49:54 robtillotson: If you had SRFI 8, 11, or 71, would you use it more? :-P 03:50:34 Ruby doesn't have real MV; it's bogus. :-P 03:50:38 Nah i think it's just a matter of not coding that way as much, or something 03:50:44 *nods* 03:50:58 srfi-71 is nice though 03:51:05 Python has tuples; but because Python doesn't have continuations, it's hard to see if it has real MV. :-P 03:51:08 continuations are strange. The more I use them (and I (ab)use the hell out of them) the less awesome and novel they seem and the more they just seem like a necessary evil and different kind of mess. 03:51:28 (Whereas in Ruby, I test "real-MV-ness" by creating a continuation and passing it 0, 1, and 2+ values. 03:51:31 ) 03:51:50 i admit i first learned lisp 25 years ago and still haven't quite wrapped my brain around how to actually use continuations as more than an equivalent of "break" 03:52:15 So i've had *a* lisp/scheme epiphany, but obviously not the final level of enlightenment 03:52:24 *nods* 03:54:07 I say MV in Ruby is bogus because (at least for MRI), calling a continuation with 0 value returns nil, 1 value returns whatever you pass it, and 2+ values packs them into an array and returns that. 03:54:31 ...which means that there is no useful way to distinguish a single-value return (of nil or arrays) versus real MV returns. 03:55:20 Granted, for the usual use case for MV (where you know how many values to expect a priori), this doesn't matter one bit. 03:55:43 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176194049.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:55:52 (In that Ruby's argument unpacking will do the Right Thing.) 03:56:02 s/argument/assignment/ 03:57:00 But, like, in Scheme, if you are using call-with-values directly (vs using SRFI 8/11/71), it's possible to not have to know the number of values in advance. 03:57:15 And in Scheme, you get no lossage as regards how many values were passed. 03:57:26 ...whereas the same cannot be said of Ruby. 03:58:35 Yes I have noticed how nice it is that something can return multiple values and i can ignore all but the first one 03:58:47 Chicken's http library uses this it seems 03:58:51 *nods* 04:00:49 I do wish there's some macros for easily getting just the first return value (this is one case where I wish Scheme's VALUES worked like CL's). 04:01:11 Like, right off the top of my head, this is the easiest way I can come up with: 04:01:18 rudybot: (call-with-values (lambda () (values 1 2 3)) (lambda args (car args))) 04:01:19 cky: ; Value: 1 04:01:43 Whereas in CL, saying (values (values 1 2 3)) will suffice. 04:06:38 Oh, cool. You can use a dotted list with RECEIVE to swallow the remaining values (doesn't work with LET-VALUES or SRFI 71's LET, though): 04:06:43 rudybot: (require srfi/8) 04:06:44 cky: Done. 04:06:52 rudybot: (receive (a . _) (values 1 2 3) a) 04:06:53 cky: ; Value: 1 04:07:54 evhan [~evhan@209.242.237.5] has joined #scheme 04:09:17 timj__ [~timj@e176197057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:10:54 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:13:47 Ive never understood the appeal of multiple return values. I get how they match up nicely with continuations, but I don't get why a protocol like (list 'values x y z ...) isn't sufficient in practical use 04:17:36 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 04:17:46 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:17:48 values gets a lot of hate... to me, there's a conceptual difference between a function returning multiple things and one returning a list of things 04:19:35 evhan: Agree. (Re MV being distinct from a list.) 04:19:59 -!- bombshelter13b_ is now known as bombshelter13 04:20:06 -!- bombshelter13 is now known as bombshelter13b 04:20:17 somnium: Because it seriously complicates things when you need to write, say, compose. 04:20:41 somnium: I mean, yes, you could write your own implementation of call-with-values that automatically detects this magic marker, etc. 04:20:49 But, then, why not just use a dedicated MV data type? 04:24:00 let me know when your arguments finish :)) :D 04:24:37 It just seems like destructuring a list or a struct with named slots is clearer about intent -- and fits better with an applicative language 04:24:47 multiple return values make a lot of sense in say, Forth 04:25:15 Gmind: :-P 04:25:47 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #scheme 04:25:53 cky: /me want to ask What do you guys think of writing AI using Scheme ? 04:26:34 Gmind: I've never tried. 04:29:55 -!- evhan [~evhan@209.242.237.5] has left #scheme 04:30:25 cky: is FFI complex ? 04:31:03 Not in my experience. 04:31:14 But then, I've only used FFIs from Java, haven't tried using a Scheme FFI yet. 04:31:22 No, but it is differentiable. Dunno whether it is real-analytic. 04:31:29 Riastradh++ 04:31:46 Gmind: FFIs in Scheme should be even easier than FFIs in Java. 04:31:51 Gmind: And they're already easy in Java. 04:32:01 Even when FFI from C++ ? 04:32:09 Well, no, no comments about C++. 04:32:30 Just stick with extern "C" interfaces and you'll be a happy camper. :-) 04:34:04 :-s 04:34:19 Gmind: Trust me, C-style interfaces are a _lot_ easier to FFI for than C++ ones. You don't have to deal with templates, non-POD types, non-external-linkage (e.g., inline) functions, etc. 04:34:42 Gmind: If you had an interface that took a non-POD type _by value_, you're in for a world of pain. :-P 04:34:49 Yes, I know, but the API I need was written on C++ 04:34:57 Gmind: Write a C wrapper for it. 04:35:03 =))))) 04:35:14 I wish I have power to do so 04:35:18 Of course you do. 04:35:25 don't even know what is wrapper 04:35:43 I just can do some basic C/C++ programming 04:35:46 You simply write a C++ library, that simply reexports all of the other library's functionality in C-friendly ways. 04:36:28 :-s 04:36:46 I thought it should be C++ >> C >> Scheme FFI 04:37:53 So, you should actually have some C++ experience before using a C++ library. 04:38:27 I'm not C or C++ expert programmer :P 04:38:56 wonder if you can suggest me some way that I could approach 04:38:57 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night!] 04:38:59 =.=! 04:39:18 Gmind, you should check out the K&R book on C 04:39:23 Just when I am stuck in IronScheme import from .NET 04:39:28 it doesn't cover AI though 04:39:30 K& R ? 04:39:41 Kernighan and Ritchie 04:40:35 Gmind: "The C Programming Language" is the title of the book. 04:40:48 I'm just choosing a way to migrate to Scheme 04:40:55 Gmind: Anyway, there's also another book, "The C++ Programming Language", by Bjarne Stroustrup. 04:41:04 Both books are worth reading. 04:41:16 oh god =)) I'm attempting to use Scheme for my AI, not C or C++ 04:41:24 K&R is somewhat shorter (and probably easier to read) than TC++PL though. :-P 04:41:36 Gmind: Sorry, you're SOL unless you write your own client library, then. 04:41:59 if FFI to C++ on Scheme is way too difficult , then I think CLR import on IronScheme should be my way =) 04:42:55 Heh. 04:43:02 hey, how about FFI to .NET ? 04:43:05 You know, writing your own client library could be better. 04:43:12 ...just get familiar with network programming. 04:43:50 cky: yep, in fact, my F# bot is written in the Client way too 04:44:44 No, like, write your own bwapi.scm instead of using bwapi.dll. Get what I mean? 04:45:04 Have it talk directly to the bwapi server. No middleman. 04:45:26 :P u know BWAPI ? 04:46:06 Gmind: it looks like calling .NET libraries is fairly painless 04:46:09 http://ironscheme.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=clr-syntax&referringTitle=Documentation 04:46:09 http://tinyurl.com/2eb829y 04:46:26 I don't recommend Bjarne's book for learning C++. 04:46:32 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 04:47:09 somnium: yes, but still very complex, I want to make sure if FFI could be easier 04:47:23 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:47:26 Obfuscate: I agree that something like Accelerated C++ is better for beginners. :-) 04:47:31 wonder if it could be as easy as I call .NET from F# 04:49:42 ok =.= 04:50:20 somnium: I must do a lot of re-define on Scheme before actually use all function from my .NET library 04:51:05 cky: Actually, I'd recommend C++ Primer (/not/ Primer Plus) for beginners, or perhaps C++: Programmer to Programmer for someone who already knows C. I feel that C++ puts too much effort towards (an impractical, imo) design slant, when it should be covering how to exploit the language. 04:51:07 is FFI to C++ version more complex than that ? 04:51:39 (Just want to know from your experiences of using FFI to C++ ) 04:51:50 :P before I actually jump into it 04:52:05 Gmind: I've already touched on some of the challenges involved in making a C++ FFI. Many of those topics won't make sense to you if you're not a C++ practitioner. 04:52:26 But, trust me when I say that it will take 10x as much work to implement a C++ FFI than a C FFI. 04:52:37 Gmind: FFIs targeting C++ are a nightmare for both implementers and users, and are typically only attempted by compiler authors who are releasing the C++ compiler that they're targeting. 04:52:58 ... far more than ten times. 04:53:02 Obfuscate: :-) 04:53:04 thanks about your advices 04:54:14 I am clear about this now 04:54:17 :D 04:54:26 so will leave it behind 04:54:36 and stay with IronScheme 04:54:41 cky: I had the unfortunate experience of being tasked to provide source-level import capability with C++ at my last job, which had a profound impact on my relationship with the language. ;) 04:55:36 Obfuscate: !!!! 04:55:45 Obfuscate: the language reference is definitely a horrible way to learn C++ 04:55:47 I tried 04:56:53 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 04:57:19 Adamant: It is, however, a great way to work towards disability benefits after your next asylum visit. 04:57:30 So if you already know C, then what's the best way to learn C++ ? 04:57:49 Obfuscate: Cthulu flaghn 04:58:00 aieeee 04:59:22 the great Old Templating Ones rise from the depths of a starless sea 04:59:37 Nisstyre65: Read the book I mentioned, followed by Meyer's series of books, and read/write some code. 05:00:42 sounds good 05:00:44 *cky* has read through the entire Effective C++ and Exceptional C++ series. 05:01:07 I'm reading SICP right now 05:01:10 I've also read through the C++ FAQ (book form, not just the C++ FAQ-Lite) in full, as well as TC++PL, and The Design and Evolution of C++. 05:01:31 C++ had been my day job for over 3 years, so I took a lot of time to read through as many quality C++ books as I could. :-P 05:01:32 the comp.lang FAQs usually aren't bad 05:01:45 my condolences 05:03:36 I love the names in this book; "Alyssa P. Hacker" 05:06:22 :-) 05:06:41 -!- Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.186.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:08:17 cky, something I am slightly confused about though... 05:08:34 in one of the examples it tells you to define a function after using that function's name 05:08:44 do you not have to prototype them like in C? 05:09:00 No. 05:09:05 No prototype necessary. 05:09:22 oh, cool 05:09:24 If you are referencing a name in the top-level scope, you can define the function after the fact. 05:20:26 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 05:20:58 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:21:36 -!- bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:42:14 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 05:45:47 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 05:54:28 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 05:55:17 homie` 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joined #scheme 07:07:37 morning schemophiles. 07:13:11 happy festivus, everybody. 07:13:42 *fds* is a Schemophiliac 07:15:37 :D 07:16:00 at least you're not schemophobic. 07:16:29 or a necrophiliac ^_^ 07:16:50 :-| 07:27:21 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 07:27:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:32:31 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 07:44:51 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:47:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:51:03 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:52:31 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:03:31 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:03:36 Gmind 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16:45:10 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 16:48:01 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 16:48:58 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 16:54:28 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:07:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10:49 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-233-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:12:34 zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-209-253.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 17:15:08 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 17:18:14 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:20:56 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:24:07 hi how can I make my program check if a certain scheme function is available? 17:24:29 e.g. imagine I want it to do something if (blabla) exists, and another thing if it doesn0t 17:24:32 * doesn't 17:25:55 Fill: What is the use case for such functionality? 17:27:07 it's an automatic game player to a championship to discover which one is more intelligent, but they use a program that runs all the players written in scheme and I don't know if it will load the libraries I loaded... 17:27:56 so, to be 100% sure it will work, I was trying to make alternate procedures if the functions the original ones try to use are not available. do you understand? 17:28:20 Well, you could do it this way: define your alternative procedures first, then load your library. 17:31:13 hummm 17:40:52 wouldn't that waste memory? 17:42:14 -!- alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:37 I have no idea 17:47:02 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:19 Nisstyre65: Why would it? If the library loads successfully, I'd presume the existing bindings would just get replaced with the ones in the library. 17:49:45 Nisstyre65: And the old functions would just get collected. 17:56:46 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 18:00:55 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:07:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:12:30 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:18:02 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21:03 True, I didn't think of that 18:22:03 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:22:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:23:26 -!- homie` is now known as homie 18:27:26 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:38 -!- 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[~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 20:49:14 zevarito_ [~zevarito@r186-48-214-87.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 20:51:19 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-209-253.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:53:15 -!- bluesky11 [~bluesky11@frbg-4d0286ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:55:22 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 20:55:28 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:55:53 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 20:56:46 cinch [david@2001:470:26:272:0:c0ff:ee:d00d] has joined #scheme 20:59:03 -!- mmc [~michal@cs181176169.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:17 -!- cinch [david@2001:470:26:272:0:c0ff:ee:d00d] has left #scheme 21:01:56 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:21 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-139-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 21:03:09 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:05:41 -!- femtooo [~femto@95-89-197-139-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:05:45 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-144.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:09:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:13:37 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:17:51 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:28:40 -!- Nisstyre65 is now known as ``` 21:28:44 -!- ``` is now known as ```` 21:28:48 -!- ```` is now known as ``````` 21:29:28 phao [~phao@189.107.158.186] has joined #scheme 21:31:09 -!- ``````` is now known as `Nisstyre 21:31:47 pantsd_home [~pantsd_ho@174-31-213-241.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:32:23 Is there a cross-platform sparse vector package? The only one I can find seems to be for chicken scheme only. 21:36:49 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [~godless@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:37:14 araujo [~araujo@190.38.51.34] has joined #scheme 21:37:14 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.51.34] has quit [Changing host] 21:37:14 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 21:37:16 (let ((n (+ 2 3))) (eq? n n)) -- the standard says that this is not specified... any reason why? 21:37:46 phao, the reasoning goes like this: 21:37:55 first, replace 2 with 2000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 21:38:11 then (+ ^that 3) is a bignum, which gets heap allocated 21:38:23 then constant-fold and inline, and you get 21:38:32 (eq? 2000000000000000000000000000000000000000003 2000000000000000000000000000000000000000003) 21:38:42 rudybot, eval: (eq? 2000000000000000000000000000000000000000003 2000000000000000000000000000000000000000003) 21:38:42 samth: I was doing (when (eq window-system 'x) but that didn't seem to work...maybe I did something wrong. Thanks. 21:39:05 rudybot, (eq? 2000000000000000000000000000000000000000003 2000000000000000000000000000000000000000003) 21:39:05 samth: your sandbox is ready 21:39:05 samth: ; Value: #f 21:39:24 so that's why 21:39:44 but shouldn't eq? see if n is the same object as n? 21:39:47 as in pointer comparison? 21:40:23 What does define-record do in chicken scheme? (/ is there a portable equiv)? 21:41:06 phao, note that (eq? some-big-value same-big-value) is not always true, as my example shows 21:41:37 I still don't get why 21:41:38 and if you want to allow compilers to do unrestricted constant propagation, then you can't mandate that your expression produces #t 21:41:54 phao, is malloc(5) == malloc(5) ? 21:42:12 no, but (p = malloc(5), p == p) is true 21:42:32 oh uhh actually you're right 21:42:35 huh 21:42:36 I'm not doing (let ((n 3) (m 3)) (eq? n m)) 21:42:44 so yea i dont get why not either 21:43:07 This isn't the first confusion I make on eq? 21:43:08 jonrafkind, the standard doesn't mandate that so that compilers can apply the optimizations i'm describing 21:43:13 I just hope I find a pattern on its definition someday 21:43:47 i dont see why copy propagation precludes eq? from working 21:44:07 if the copmiler chooses to do copy propagation, then it shouldn't invalidate eq?'ness 21:44:09 jonrafkind, it's not copy-prop but constant prop 21:44:14 oh sorry 21:44:25 i could see how a naive implementation would get it wrong though 21:44:40 rins [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 21:44:40 no, the point is to allow that optimization to be *correct* 21:44:46 it isn't wrong 21:45:36 but it would be wrong if after constant propagation (eq? n n) was suddenly #f 21:45:43 when if you didn't do the optimization it would be #t 21:46:15 no, it's not wrong 21:46:22 that's what underspecication is about 21:46:26 Use EQV? and ignore the EQ? behind the curtain. 21:46:35 either #f or #t are legal results of that program 21:46:44 my point is it *could* be specified 21:46:50 yes, of course it could 21:46:54 racket does, for example 21:46:59 and i think it's a good idea 21:47:05 oh. well than case closed 21:47:07 racket? 21:47:07 but it's not like there's some magic here 21:49:38 Quetzalcoatl_ [~godless@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:54:05 btw 21:54:11 is there any "pattern" behing eq?'s definition? 21:54:19 honestly.. looks pretty random to me. 21:57:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:27 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:01:57 -!- mozinator1 [~Administr@195-240-33-225.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:07:57 phao: I think it's easy to implement -- it's typically just pointer comparison 22:08:02 hence very fast 22:10:44 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:11:05 phao: there's some discussion about it in 1985 and 1986 rrrs-authors archive ( http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/projects/scheme/rrrs-archive.html ) 22:11:22 MikeV [thedude@bzq-109-67-18-143.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 22:12:55 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-180-8-245.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:13:57 By the reasoning described here, it would be illegal to perform the constant-propagation described herein if the init form was (list 1 2 3), presumably since all references to n must be to the same object? 22:22:12 yes. lists (conses) are easy because you can measure eq?/same-object-ness/identity by what set-car! and set-cdr! modify. if both are modified then they are eq?, if only one then they're not eq?. 22:22:57 the eq? of immutable objects not so well defined 22:23:43 offby1, yeah 22:23:57 the "hard part" is to know when two objects have the same address 22:24:58 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:24:58 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:24:58 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 22:27:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:32:10 The rules are not consistent. (let ((x '#())) (eq? x x)) is unspecified, but (let ((x '(a))) (eq? x x)) must be #t. This implies at least one of two things: 1) constant propagation is selective depending on the type of the init-form, or 2) (eq? '(a) '(a)) must be #t, hence the compiler must coalesce all (quote (a)) forms to refer to the same object, while this does not have to be true for (quote #()). 22:32:33 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:32:37 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e0b815c.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 22:33:42 ..and since there's a line that says (eq? '(a) '(a)) is unspecified, 2) is out. 22:34:33 The R5RS says (let ((x '#())) (eq? x x)) = (let ((x '(a))) (eq? x x)) = #t. Was this loosened in the R6RS? 22:35:22 R6RS explicitly says your first expression is unspecified. 22:47:04 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:15 -!- mwolfe [~michael@adsl-68-123-235-44.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:31 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:57:22 jimrees_: ...it does?! 22:57:36 jimrees_: That seems to be the most unbelievable thing to hear. 22:59:01 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-32-82-254-14-190.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:59:03 Page 39? Section 11.5? 22:59:13 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-57-82-249-48-194.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:59:19 I'll check. 22:59:54 There's text about relaxed requirements w.r.t. empty strings, bytevectors, and vectors. 23:00:06 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:00:33 ...implying that implementations may or may not represent such objects with singletons? 23:00:56 Well, that's understandable, but the (eq? x x) being unspecified, that's hardcore. 23:01:18 Considering that the usual way is that variables just point to one location, and that eq? compares locations. 23:02:45 Did you miss the discussion a while back? Scroll up to 16:37. It's all about constant propagation. 23:02:59 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-139-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:23 -!- jimrees_ is now known as jimrees 23:07:18 the bit about quoted empty vectors/bytevectors is very strange, though 23:13:26 jimrees: Interesting. 23:13:43 jimrees: (I haven't read the scrollback yet, sorry.) 23:13:59 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:14:51 ______n [~user1@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:17:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:53 -!- ______n [~user1@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22:08 mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:22:40 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:29:04 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:34:33 -!- zevarito_ [~zevarito@r186-48-214-87.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:02 Does SLIB work with plt-scheme? 23:41:41 -!- alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:42:39 probably not. 23:42:47 I suspect it doesn't actually work with any non-moribund scheme. 23:42:54 pantsd_home, no 23:43:23 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:52:07 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving]