00:00:28 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 00:00:43 -!- Caleb-- [~caleb@bzq-79-176-18-223.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:00:57 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 00:06:51 Caleb-- [~caleb@bzq-79-180-10-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:32 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:24 singintime [~singintim@151.81.4.101] has joined #scheme 00:10:31 hello world! 00:11:24 -!- Caleb-- [~caleb@bzq-79-180-10-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:11:49 rudybot: (display "Hello singintime") 00:11:53 fds: your sandbox is ready 00:11:53 fds: ; stdout: "Hello singintime" 00:14:03 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:14 Has anyone here used net/imap succsessfully? My program seems to just hang on connections 00:15:19 connection* 00:15:31 Is there any way for me to stipulate verbose output or anything of that sort? 00:16:12 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:35 Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-179-4-64.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 00:18:00 -!- alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:20:40 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-179-4-64.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:25:35 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 00:25:46 Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-182-14-128.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 00:26:51 Maxel [~Maxel@adsl-99-160-141-183.dsl.euclwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:27:41 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@adsl-99-160-141-183.dsl.euclwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 00:28:41 alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:29:42 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 00:29:50 does anyone have some experience with fluxus? 00:30:24 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-182-14-128.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:31:57 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:33:29 mathk [~mathk@dispo-82-250-11-79.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 00:37:03 Caleb-- [thedude@109.66.6.32] has joined #scheme 00:46:58 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@109.66.6.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:53:27 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:53:53 -!- davazp [~user@3.Red-83-46-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:19 schmir [~schmir@p54A90B0D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 00:55:19 -!- singintime [~singintim@151.81.4.101] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:00:35 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:04:43 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] 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http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-spring-2005/video-lectures/ 01:25:37 Why are there only 20 videos? 01:25:39 Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-179-6-146.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:43 Aren't there supposed to be 26? 01:25:52 There are 26 lecture notes. 01:29:07 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:40 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-179-6-146.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:30:19 jao [~user@245.Red-81-39-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:30:19 -!- jao [~user@245.Red-81-39-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:30:19 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 01:30:32 jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:34:19 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34:57 Caleb-- [thedude@109.66.4.231] has joined #scheme 01:35:13 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 01:36:28 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@217.191.221.182] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:36:40 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-5f77b19e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 01:41:34 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:47:50 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:51:37 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@109.66.4.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:55:50 Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-109-67-11-122.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 02:01:45 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:01:57 -!- evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:02:45 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:04:20 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-32.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:05:22 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-32.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:06:06 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-35-163-158.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:06:21 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-163-158.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:11:38 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:11:45 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:24:57 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-32.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:27:19 root [~root@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:27:34 -!- root is now known as Guest35 02:29:00 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-32.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:31:10 whats the difference between sicp and htdp 02:37:26 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night!] 02:40:57 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-153-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:41:15 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 02:42:27 Maxels [~Maxel@99.149.172.42] has joined #scheme 02:48:02 -!- tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:48:22 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:49:06 3 letters. 02:52:51 masm [~masm@bl19-153-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 02:54:03 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 02:54:14 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-hmrhyedloakjzbgm] has joined #scheme 02:55:42 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-153-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 02:59:15 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:04:35 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-25.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 03:04:52 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-110-206.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:05:22 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 03:08:28 -!- pdelgallego 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[~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #scheme 03:50:08 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:51:25 hey so r6rs doesn't have a top-level for interactive use? 03:52:41 timj__ [~timj@e176192170.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:45 never mind 03:54:21 *bitweiler* slaps head hard on keyboard 03:55:55 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176192197.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:00:18 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 04:09:11 Maxel [~Maxel@99.149.227.79] has joined #scheme 04:10:57 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@99.149.172.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:17:54 Checkie [17414@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 04:22:10 -!- Guest41255 [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-8-178.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:22:11 hypercube32 [~hypercube@158.102.207.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:22:18 Guest41255 [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-8-178.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:24:34 -!- Guest41255 [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-8-178.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:25:01 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-8-178.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:25:27 -!- Khisanth is now known as Guest73210 04:29:52 offby1` [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 04:30:45 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 04:32:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:05 -!- Guest73210 [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-8-178.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:33:24 khisanth__ [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-8-178.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:33:50 -!- khisanth__ is now known as Khisanth 04:37:20 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 04:51:49 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 05:09:10 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@158.102.207.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:11:23 -!- Guest35 [~root@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:14:27 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:15:46 TheSeparateOne [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 05:22:43 Hi TheSeparateOne 05:22:57 Augh, fds! Following me! 05:23:34 Heh, I prefer it here actually. But don't tell #lisp ;-) 05:24:03 close(fds) 05:24:35 *offby1* slaps foof upside the haid 05:27:40 /join #gnus 05:28:28 but why? 05:32:21 pknodle [~pknodle@pool-98-110-175-36.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:38:27 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 05:40:18 -!- pknodle [~pknodle@pool-98-110-175-36.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: pknodle] 05:42:58 In Racket, how does one specify a path relative to the current file? 05:43:47 For example, if I have /foo/bar/baz.rkt and it contains (string->path "qux/quux.txt") I want that to expand to "/foo/bar/qux/quux.txt" 05:46:07 I think you want a library called etc/mzlib 05:46:15 in it is something like this-file-source-directory 05:47:54 danking: http://docs.racket-lang.org/mzlib/mzlib_etc.html?q=this-file#(form._((lib._mzlib/etc..rkt)._this-expression-file-name)) 05:48:14 note that there is a #racket channel too 05:48:35 offby1: Nice. Thanks 05:49:07 I assumed #racket was similar to the (now defunct?) #plt-scheme which was intended for development talk only 05:49:18 Is it not so? 05:50:19 nah, it's general 05:50:27 nice. 05:50:34 _I'm_ in that channel, so it's _got_ to be good. 05:50:39 *offby1* nods gravely 05:52:14 Ah. 05:52:19 *danking* lok of awe 05:52:23 a look too. 05:53:35 Rmind [~Gmind@113.190.182.90] has joined #scheme 05:57:00 -!- damagedFunction [~user@99-165-41-10.lightspeed.powyca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:40 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 06:18:43 -!- mwolfe [~michael@cpe-67-49-72-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:45 TheSeparateFirst [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 06:19:52 -!- TheSeparateOne [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:32:36 pknodle [~pknodle@pool-98-110-175-36.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:46:08 brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:51:23 For a novice to Scheme, what implementation would you recommend on Debian? 06:52:12 Chicken is in the repos 06:52:25 MIT Scheme might bem depending on your arch 06:53:13 s/bem/be,/ 06:53:30 Silly MIT, not being there. Oh well. I don't suppose which one I use will make a huge impact on learning. 06:53:36 -!- pknodle [~pknodle@pool-98-110-175-36.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #scheme 06:54:13 No, I don;t think so. I've been using Scheme for a while now and haven't done much implementation-specific stuff 06:54:32 But, I guess it depends what kind of things you're doing 06:55:09 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 06:56:49 -!- minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:00:21 xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-yneayhjlsbeeyccx] has joined #scheme 07:04:29 Indeed it probably doesn't make much difference, but I'll just put in a vote for chicken :) 07:05:34 Dawgmatix [~dman@123.201.201.243] has joined #scheme 07:14:37 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has joined #scheme 07:15:19 Racket :P 07:24:46 Hey, Is that "->list" used to push value into a list ? 07:26:14 -!- mathk [~mathk@dispo-82-250-11-79.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 07:28:21 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@123.201.201.243] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:28:59 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-109-67-11-122.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34:03 Caleb-- [~caleb@bzq-109-65-39-104.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 07:35:03 -!- Rmind [~Gmind@113.190.182.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:39:16 -!- Caleb-- [~caleb@bzq-109-65-39-104.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:39:37 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:39:57 Caleb-- [thedude@109.65.39.104] has joined #scheme 07:43:20 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 07:55:17 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:56:19 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:56:44 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 07:56:44 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:56:44 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 07:58:53 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:58:53 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #scheme 08:01:17 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@109.65.39.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:04:33 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:08:07 Caleb-- [~caleb@109.64.17.52] has joined #scheme 08:15:08 -!- Caleb-- [~caleb@109.64.17.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:19:26 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-108-18-226-169.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20:42 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:21:03 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 08:26:24 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 08:28:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:37:49 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-197.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 08:38:28 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-25.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:41:17 nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 08:47:52 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-7-249.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:52:07 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-8-178.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:52:56 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 09:07:41 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:12:23 HG` [~HG@xdsleh072.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 09:13:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:28 schmir [~schmir@p54A902D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:38:32 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:43:07 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03:07 -!- jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:28 skld [~skld@vpn.bangalore.geodesic.com] has joined #scheme 10:28:28 -!- skld [~skld@vpn.bangalore.geodesic.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:28:28 skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has joined #scheme 10:28:41 -!- skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has left #scheme 10:41:58 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-hmrhyedloakjzbgm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:11 -!- nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:50:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 10:58:12 What about inefficient O(n) complexity (lambda(x l) (reverse (cons x (reverse l)))) ? 10:58:38 (if I urderstood what you meant by "push") 11:00:45 minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:06:05 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:06:05 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:06:15 stamourv` [~user@kauai.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 11:06:33 -!- stamourv [~user@kauai.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07:31 -!- danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:07:57 danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 11:11:54 masm [~masm@bl19-153-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:13:35 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 11:16:50 danking: Don't use the `this-expression-*' things, use `define-runtime-path'. 11:18:29 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 11:50:24 -!- Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Quit: An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader] 11:52:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:53:40 Leonidas_ [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 11:54:16 -!- Leonidas_ is now known as Leonidas 11:59:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 12:00:38 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:07 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 12:17:04 -!- TheSeparateFirst [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:34:43 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:40:16 j6dyck [~jeff@129-97-233-51.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 12:40:17 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:40:40 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #scheme 12:44:53 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A902D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:16 schmir [~schmir@p54A902D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 12:45:38 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 12:47:47 So in scheme, there are no iterations? Just recursion? 12:49:09 DrDuck: see http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.2.4 12:49:24 In lecture 1B Sussman is explaining peano arithmetic and it looks like recursion is the only thing that's happening. 12:49:55 He's using the if construct. 12:52:32 DrDuck: In Scheme, iteration is done using tail recursion. 12:52:49 DrDuck: There is no "goto", for example. I mean, yes, you can use continuations to do goto, but that's way overkill. 12:54:54 I'm just making sure recursion is what's primarily and naturally used in Scheme because when Sussman started explaining the process of peano arithmetic, I kind of goofed like, "Hey, this isn't how I thought it was!". It makes my brain feel funny, but I like it. :D 12:55:15 :-) 12:55:47 Scheme programmers are generally very keenly aware of when a recursion is a tail one or not. 12:56:11 They need that mental model to know whether the recursion is going to be O(1) or O(n) in space. 12:56:56 Sounds like an attractive side effect from programming in Scheme. 12:57:16 I hope I can pick that up one day - hopefully before the next semester of school starts. 12:57:16 Hehehehehe. 13:03:26 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:03:31 Since time and space of a process using recursion are both O(x), does that make it less attractive to programmers than iteration which uses time O(x) and space O(1)? I'm not sure what all this means. 13:03:51 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 13:03:51 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:03:51 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 13:05:38 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e0b815c.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 13:06:40 DrDuck: Tail recursion uses O(1) space. 13:06:59 DrDuck: That is precisely why knowing when a recursion is in the tail position is vital for Scheme programmers. 13:07:44 So, I'll give you an example. 13:07:48 I see. Well, when you're using a language outside of the functional paradigm, when does using recursion become practical over iterations? 13:08:08 DrDuck: Recursion is a nice abstraction 13:08:14 In any language. 13:08:21 Quadrescence++ 13:08:23 D: 13:08:29 DrDuck: The Scheme standard requires this. In other languages tail recursion may use O(n) space so it would not be wise to use it 13:08:30 DrDuck: Here's why: 13:10:25 DrDuck: So, here's a naive (non-tail-recursive) method of adding all numbers in a list: (define (sum l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ (car l) (sum (cdr l))))) 13:11:10 DrDuck: And a corresponding tail-recursive version: (define (sum l (init 0)) (if (null? l) init (sum (cdr l) (+ init (car l))))) 13:11:50 DrDuck: When a problem can be broken into sub-problems which are (a) similar to the larger problem, or (b) have a very trivial solution (for example, a trivial solution to "how many ways can you arrange 1 marble" is, well, trivial), then recursion provides a way to solve the problem and all sub-problems in just one way. 13:12:11 Yay divide and conquer! 13:12:41 Hmmm. 13:13:22 Moreover, recursion can do things that iteration has no hope doing 13:14:09 I'll remember that and keep reading and watching videos. Hopefully it clicks all the way for me. 13:14:17 About 1/4 of a click so far. 13:14:36 Hahahahahaha. 13:14:38 Gonna quote you in my blog, so I don't forget. 13:14:41 :D 13:14:45 DrDuck: How do you measure the length of a curvy object? 13:14:57 DrDuck: So, just mentally think of tail recursion as a goto (but with the arguments rewritten). 13:15:19 DrDuck: If you can easily picture that, then iteration is easy peasy. :-P 13:15:33 DrDuck: Think of it this way. There's no reason why recursion and iteration need to be expressed differently. Do you suddenly need to rewrite your entire function when you switch to a recursive algorithm? 13:16:16 Not in Scheme. There you just tweak the bits that need to be different 13:21:58 This is all valuable info for me. Thanks guys. Saving this. 13:22:53 DrDuck: You didn't answer my question. :) 13:23:13 Quadrescence: That's because I wasn't sure how to heh. 13:23:41 DrDuck: Think of how you would measure in a practical sense (not on a computer) 13:24:08 how would you measure the length of a curve if you only have a ruler and calculator 13:25:44 *DrDuck* googles 13:25:59 don't google 13:26:06 come on, be practical 13:26:14 you have some random curvy object in front of you 13:26:28 how would you measure the length of the curve, at least roughly? 13:28:43 -!- j6dyck [~jeff@129-97-233-51.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:30:25 Without google, I'm really not sure. I'd want to straighten the baby out and go from there. My math really isn't at a high level. I'll be taking calculus this coming semester. 13:31:05 You don't need math really 13:31:32 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:31:34 to get a rough length, you might just measure small little pieces of it at a time with the ruler 13:31:43 and add up all the lengths you got 13:32:46 Alright. That works, too. 13:33:02 That is basically a real-life iterative solution 13:33:21 Ok. I can see that. 13:33:28 But it's so messy when you think about it. You have to measure a little piece, mark it off, add it, repeat 13:33:35 re-positioning the ruler and whatever 13:33:55 going one-by-one till the problem is solved 13:33:59 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #scheme 13:34:01 Alright I'm with ya on this. :D 13:34:19 To probably most scheme programmers, or functional programmers, this is hideous 13:35:08 Finding the length of an entire curve is just the same thing is finding the length of one half, and adding it to the length of the second half 13:36:06 length(curve) = length(left_curve) + length(right_curve) 13:36:14 does that idea make sense so far? 13:36:19 Yes. 13:36:39 But look! length is defined recursively here 13:36:49 D: 13:37:06 (define (length curve) (+ (length (left curve)) (length (right curve)))) 13:37:23 ooooooooo 13:37:31 The only thing we need to know is when to stop dividing them up 13:37:47 That's a scary though. 13:37:49 thought* 13:37:51 It'd be natural to stop dividing them up when the pieces of the curve look straight enough 13:39:02 When they are straight enough, it is trivial to find the length 13:39:34 cky: in (define (sum l (init 0)) ... ) , I am assuming (init 0) is initializing ? 13:39:35 The fog is slowly clearing away. 13:39:44 (define (length curve) (if (straight-enough? curve) (straight-length curve) (+ (length (left curve)) (length (right curve))))) 13:39:45 does it work in r5rs ? 13:40:22 minsa: No, it specifies two parameters, l and init, where init has a default value of 0 (i.e., if you call with one argument, 0 is placed in init). It's not standard R5RS, but is part of SRFI 89. 13:41:13 DrDuck: So recursion takes a problem and looks at it from an entire perspective. If we go back to the iterative solution, we start on the opposite end. We start looking at the problem very very locally. We don't see the big picture. 13:42:06 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A902D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:48 DrDuck: As with finding the sum of the numbers in a list, this has the exact same idea: The sum of a list the the same thing as the first item on the list plus the sum of the rest. 13:43:24 We take a problem (sum of list) and recognize we can break it down into an easy part (first element) and the problem itself but smaller (sum of (rest of list)) 13:44:12 We could also do the same thing we did with the curve. We could sum the first half of the list, and the second half. If we are on a computer with several cores or processors, this means we could dedicate a processor to one half, and a processor to the other half. 13:44:30 :{D 13:44:34 And we couldn't do this with iteration, because it looks at the problem from a too-shallow perspective. 13:45:34 cky: Racket is complaining the default value with " #%plain-lambda: not an identifier in: (init 0)" 13:45:43 This is fun lol. I think I'm getting it. 13:45:47 minsa: Orly? Let's see.... 13:45:57 minsa: Did you load the srfi? 13:46:01 Oh wait, rudybot isn't here. 13:46:12 Quadrescence: It's supposed to be built-in to Racket without needing to. 13:46:16 Oh. 13:47:00 should a beginner start off learning r5rs or r6rs? 13:47:12 r5rs is simple enough bitweiler 13:47:27 bitweiler: I'd do r5rs, because r6rs will be dumped soon enough 13:47:33 minsa: Here's a different way to write the "sum" function tail-recursively without using optional arguments: 13:47:40 bitweiler: What Quadrescence said. 13:48:10 okay thanks :) 13:48:29 minsa: (define (sum l) (let loop ((l l) (value 0)) (if (null? l) value (sum (cdr l) (+ value (car l)))))) 13:48:35 Oops. 13:48:41 minsa: (define (sum l) (let loop ((l l) (value 0)) (if (null? l) value (loop (cdr l) (+ value (car l)))))) 13:48:43 cky: Use an explicit function 13:48:50 I think it's better for learning tail recursion 13:49:02 Quadrescence: You mean named lets aren't explicit functions? :-P 13:49:04 woo.. named let. I learned that yesterday. :) 13:49:10 (define (sum-aux l value) ...) 13:49:22 I hate polluting the top-level namespace, but that's just me. 13:49:27 I do too 13:49:38 I'd use a named-let over an auxiliary function any day 13:49:39 or is it letrec ? 13:49:45 but I think it helps to learn with it 13:49:58 Quadrescence: I see. 13:49:58 most people don't recognize that LET is actually an abstraction for a function 13:50:16 minsa: you learned letrec :) 13:51:00 minsa: To use Quadrescence's example of sum-aux, you'd have: (define (sum-aux l value) (if (null? l) value (sum-aux (cdr l) (+ value (car l))))). 13:51:15 minsa: Then, the definition of sum is obvious. 13:51:28 Quadrescence: yes, from you. Yesterday. 13:51:40 letwreck 13:51:42 i kid 13:52:30 *minsa* needs some time to take all these in. 13:53:12 let me try the named let version first to see whether what I learned about letrec yesterday is still true. 13:55:11 I liked named let, too 13:55:17 letrec is necessary for lambda probably. 13:55:20 It's tasty 13:56:09 this is yesterday's example using letrec: 13:56:10 (define (interval start end) (letrec ((loop (lambda (count result) 13:56:11 (if (> count end) (reverse result) 13:56:11 (loop (+ count 1) (cons count result)))))) (loop start '()))) 13:58:53 minsa: That is, of course, easily rewritten as a named let. 13:59:32 How important is it to create process trees. 13:59:39 (define (interval start end) (let loop ((count start) (result '())) (if (> count end) (reverse result) (loop (+ count 1) (cons count result))))) 13:59:40 *DrDuck* grabs notebook and a pen 14:00:04 minsa: ^^--- You can compare that version with yours, to see how named lets work. 14:00:15 minsa: In fact, a named let is a macro that simply expands to what you've got. 14:00:44 DrDuck: What is your blog? 14:02:08 cky: thnx. 14:11:55 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.65.234] has joined #scheme 14:12:12 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:12:21 schmir [~schmir@p54A902D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 14:25:08 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #scheme 14:31:25 homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-11.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:32:33 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-11.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:32:42 TheSeparateFirst [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 14:33:31 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:33:49 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:41:34 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 14:42:50 nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 14:48:44 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:49:03 Rmind [~Gmind@113.190.182.90] has joined #scheme 14:51:46 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 14:51:51 metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has joined #scheme 14:57:19 -!- nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:52 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:36 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:23:24 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:29:46 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:33:56 femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 15:34:38 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 15:45:19 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:45:24 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:45:37 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:47:00 drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has joined #scheme 15:47:09 rudybot [~luser@ec2-67-202-7-151.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 15:54:02 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 16:04:18 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-11.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:04:25 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-11.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:05:04 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:22 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:17:05 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A902D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:26 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 16:20:19 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:08 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 16:26:39 yo 16:26:58 The sun is fade, and schemers are in 16:33:05 Hahaha, I think most people are here no matter what the attitude of the sun is. :-P 16:34:11 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.65.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:08 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:18 :)) 16:35:59 Should be its "Shadow meaning" 16:36:06 Hmm? 16:37:13 :P such night is the time for assassins 16:37:37 I know they will need "Scheme" =)) 16:39:46 :-P 16:40:16 jao [~user@245.Red-81-39-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:40:16 -!- jao [~user@245.Red-81-39-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:40:16 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 16:40:41 hey cky, you know leppie ? 16:40:44 :P 16:41:11 He's going to get married 16:42:15 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-153-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:43:29 cheer for him 16:44:22 Nice, 'grats to him! 16:44:43 (Yes, I have chatted with him on occasion, usually on Stack Overflow. :-P) 16:45:17 :D 16:49:23 -!- Rmind [~Gmind@113.190.182.90] has left #scheme 16:49:27 Oh, fail. 16:50:09 mario-goulart: ping 16:50:43 Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.90] has joined #scheme 16:50:43 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:52:11 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-67-202-7-151.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:44 Gmind: Do you like C? http://stackoverflow.com/q/4457551/13 :-P 16:53:03 (Granted this channel is about Scheme, but I thought I'd amuse you while others aren't looking.) 16:54:33 there are people who like C? 16:54:53 somnium: I thought Gmind professed to liking C previously, but, perhaps my memory is flaky. 16:54:54 rudybot [~luser@ec2-67-202-7-151.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 16:55:15 rudybot: lalalala 16:55:18 cky: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 16:55:30 cky: DId you mean "C programming language" ? 16:55:45 Gmind: In a programming channel, that's what C usually means, yes. :-P 16:55:54 =)) 16:56:01 I like it on Linux 16:56:04 and hate it on window 16:56:29 and working w/ OpenGL on C is simple great 16:57:10 You'll love working with OpenGL in Scheme even better, I hope. :-) 16:57:49 OpenGL on Scheme ? 16:58:06 must I use wrapper or binding ? 16:58:24 ( if it's FFI then ....=.=!) 16:59:07 I still can't figure out why the chicken blender.scm example keeps segfaulting, but evidence seems to point to intel's notoriously bad intel drivers 17:00:15 cky: your umax4_8.c question is insane =)) 17:00:23 oops, redundancy ftw 17:00:37 the guys who did this must have planned carefully 17:01:05 Gmind: Yes, it's insane, but I had fun deciphering it. :-P 17:01:26 Gmind: Writing obfuscated code is an art...there's even a contest for it! 17:01:38 *cky* wants to enter IOCCC one day. Then vow never to write another line of C. 17:01:53 (Well, the vow will only be made if I _win_ IOCCC. :-P) 17:02:57 this is kind of template or meta of C , right ? 17:02:58 :P 17:03:03 No. 17:03:05 Just obfuscated. 17:03:48 W,K,J,U is defined as some procedures 17:03:55 *are 17:04:23 Gmind: Heh, they're more likely to be C macros. 17:04:28 Gmind: I didn't look at the program, though. 17:04:30 yep, I mean macros 17:04:33 I'm not _that_ insane. 17:04:36 why not ? 17:04:40 :P this is interesting 17:04:41 I only deciphered the part that's been posted. 17:04:42 ^ ^ 17:04:54 Because all I cared about was posting the answer so I could collect a zillion points. :-P 17:05:12 LoL what you will do w/ those point ? 17:05:27 Fame, kudos, employment, etc. 17:05:46 mwolfe [~mwolfe@corona.cornerturn.com] has joined #scheme 17:05:59 :)) 17:06:12 No amount of points will guarantee you employment, but, having a high score will definitely help. :-P 17:06:21 ya, sorry I forgot you aren't from my country 17:06:25 =)) 17:06:42 :-P 17:08:03 I bet people in the first page get hit on by recruiters all the time. :-P 17:08:38 ("First page" meaning: http://stackoverflow.com/users) 17:09:34 Gmind: Oh, BTW, SO offered various bonus prizes for people in the top, too. Like, I've received SO stickers and SO tshirts. :-P 17:11:47 huh, somehow I find that motivating 17:12:17 *somnium* did get a mongodb mug once 17:12:18 The free prizes? Yes, they're nice. :-) 17:19:46 somnium: pong 17:20:47 -!- stamourv` [~user@kauai.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:21:19 stamourv [~user@kauai.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:30:44 #:-s this remind me of ACM 17:31:35 haizz, don't know when I should I attempt again 17:33:49 -!- minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:34:49 sunnyps [~sunnyps@121.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has joined #scheme 17:36:19 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36:37 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 17:38:24 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:39:26 Gmind: IOCCC is _nothing_ like ACM. 17:39:33 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:40:01 Gmind: ACM is timed, you work in a team of 3, and solve algorithmic challenges. 17:40:02 -!- sunnyps [~sunnyps@121.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:40:20 Gmind: IOCCC is untimed, you work by yourself, and you aim to make interesting programs that are as obfuscated as possible. 17:40:42 Gmind: If you like programming contests, consider entering Google Code Jam. 17:40:48 http://code.google.com/codejam/ 17:40:51 Heck, they are competition 17:40:58 It's a timed contest where you work by yourself and solve algorithmic challenges. 17:41:17 There are heaps of coding challenges. They are not all alike. 17:41:28 sunnyps [~sunnyps@121.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has joined #scheme 17:41:46 and ACM have a personal competition too, when there may be only person 17:41:55 *one 17:42:34 -!- sunnyps [~sunnyps@121.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has quit [Client Quit] 17:42:36 sunnyps_ [~sunnyps@121.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has joined #scheme 17:43:01 -!- sunnyps_ [~sunnyps@121.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:20 Gmind1 [~Deulamco@113.190.182.90] has joined #scheme 17:43:20 :) I know they are different 17:43:23 :-P 17:43:28 sunnyps [~sunnyps@121.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has joined #scheme 17:43:38 I just told that it remind me of my own competition 17:43:40 :)) 17:43:45 :-) 17:43:51 Well, you should still enter Google Code Jam. :-) 17:43:53 It's tons of fun! 17:44:10 :P 17:44:15 ya 17:44:16 Some old GCJ problems are good for code golfing, too. (Google up "decision tree code golf", for an example.) 17:44:32 let's see , google AI competition is good too 17:44:44 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:50 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:45:13 Yep. 17:45:21 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:45:42 -!- sunnyps [~sunnyps@121.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has quit [Client Quit] 17:46:04 at this time, :-? 17:46:07 hm.... 17:46:12 -!- Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47:10 I don't know if it's good for me to do so 17:47:28 I'm paying a lot of effort on my Broodwar AI 17:47:32 Hahahahaha. 17:47:45 :( Just too much thing to do 17:48:10 This Scheme learning tour is one of my obstacle already 17:48:36 I must haven't been there if I didn't get stuck in my AI behaviour part 17:48:44 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:50:45 masm [~masm@bl19-153-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 17:51:25 and now I am too slow on advancing Scheme , don't know when could I come back to my AI with full fledged and Scheme skill 17:51:41 cky: did you attempt those competition ? 17:51:48 mathk_ [~mathk@lns-bzn-37-82-253-36-67.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 17:53:15 Gmind1: I entered every Google Code Jam since 2006. 17:53:35 Gmind1: Some of my entries are written in Scheme. 17:53:41 Gmind1: (Most are written in Perl.) 17:55:27 :)) 17:55:30 nice 17:56:07 hey, do you play Starcraft ? 17:56:11 No. :-P 17:56:20 My friend Madsy does. 17:56:37 :P I'm convincing some peoples to join SC AI development 17:56:49 Hahahaha. 17:57:11 there are already many available languages 17:57:12 :P 17:57:13 femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 17:57:38 C++ is supported at full power 17:57:39 :)) 17:58:25 ( But hey, I 'm still thinking about your previous post of code, about how those will perform ,worst or better than clear code ) 17:58:49 shorter doesn't mean faster , does it ? 17:59:40 No. :-P 17:59:49 Shorter can be good, if it's clear code. 17:59:55 Short and clear code means less bugs. 18:00:03 Short and obfuscated code is another story. 18:00:33 In this case, the author of that code was probably trying to golf his code. 18:00:56 bitreader [~big_al@186.90.84.244] has joined #scheme 18:01:22 obfuscated code , that's what I'm talking about :D 18:02:32 Obfuscated code is usually not faster. :-P 18:05:05 but short is cool :P 18:05:07 :)) 18:05:28 Short obfuscated code, which appears in contests and other entertainment, is often easier to read than long obfuscated code, which appears in real computer systems 18:05:30 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:05:35 short keyword and obfuscated code always remind me of assembly code 18:06:21 mov , push stuff 18:06:23 :P 18:07:32 Jafet: Nice observation. 18:09:46 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsleh072.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:42 Hey, :P I knew Iron Scheme on .NET is implemented on C# , so it may be as fast as C#. But how about Racket or other Impl on native C (or C++ ?) , will they be the same ? 18:16:11 With a good JIT compiler, it could run even faster than C or C++. :-P 18:19:07 :D 18:19:27 seem to be positive performance 18:19:48 is there any Scheme in Shoutout ? 18:20:05 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ 18:22:08 oh... I saw Lisp SBCL here :P 18:22:34 any schemer should submit code here 18:25:40 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:25:55 -!- mathk_ [~mathk@lns-bzn-37-82-253-36-67.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:31 mathk_ [~mathk@194.177.62.66] has joined #scheme 18:37:54 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 18:39:32 Maxels [~Maxel@99.149.226.114] has joined #scheme 18:40:43 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@99.149.227.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:14 I'm off to bed 18:42:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:42:18 bye guys 18:42:18 Have fun! 18:42:32 sleep tight! 18:42:48 Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.90] has joined #scheme 18:43:02 =.=! god, what's fun ? 18:43:10 on dreamming ? :)) 18:43:11 :-P 18:43:28 have just got something like 18:43:30 The hardest part about moving forward is not looking back .. 18:45:29 bye bro :-h 18:45:36 -!- Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.90] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:32 -!- Gmind1 [~Deulamco@113.190.182.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:16 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:59:53 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:19 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:28 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:10:27 -!- bitweiler [~bitweiler@adsl-99-40-236-82.dsl.stl2mo.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 19:14:14 mathk__ [~mathk@lns-bzn-37-82-253-36-67.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:14:27 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:37 -!- mathk_ [~mathk@194.177.62.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:21:22 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:18 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:27:46 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #scheme 19:30:01 Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has joined #scheme 19:30:44 -!- Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has left #scheme 19:43:14 chandler: Could you reconnect the lisppaste bot please? 19:47:32 -!- mathk__ [~mathk@lns-bzn-37-82-253-36-67.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:53:03 mathk_ [~mathk@194.177.62.66] has joined #scheme 19:56:16 minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:56:40 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:59:19 sjamaan: I *could*, but it'll just fail again. 19:59:25 :( 20:00:06 I don't have the time to babysit it anymore, and nobody's offered to help, so it will just putter along without working IRC notification until it dies. 20:03:22 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:30 ASau` [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:07:02 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-197.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:09:24 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-14-123.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:12:43 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:13:38 oh no 20:14:26 I've been trying to convince sjamaan to rewrite it in Chicken. He's already ported the colorizer. 20:15:31 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-210-81.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:56 chandler: try harder :) 20:15:57 pothos [~pothos@111-240-210-81.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:00 Oh dear... what sort of help does it need, chandler? Does it really need a rewrite, or just some maintenance? 20:16:01 sjamaan: get on that 20:16:24 It really could need a rewrite, but anyone who knows Common Lisp could help with maintenance. 20:17:15 What maintenance does it need at the moment? Just the fact that the IRC bot dies, or are there deeper malaises? 20:18:10 That's probably the biggest issue, but the source code is a mess, the version of cl-irc it's using is old and has local hacks that conflict with trunk, etc. 20:19:18 Hrm 20:19:51 cleaning up the whole mess may not actually be easier than rewriting it 20:19:54 How many channels does it serve? Are there off-the-shelf pastebots we could just use, or is there a strong patriotic desire to have a homegrown Lisp one? 20:20:16 Yeah, that's often the case, alas 20:20:30 I'm not aware of a good off-the-shelf one that provides IRC notification. There are plenty of off-the-shelf ones without that. 20:20:42 Yeah, but the IRC notification is most welcome 20:20:58 It's the killer feature 20:21:04 Plus the lisp/scheme highlighting 20:21:14 One other sore spot is the storage backend, which right now is a huge directory of XML files. (yech, don't remember why I even did that) 20:21:40 That shouldn't be hard to convert to sqlite or something equivalent 20:21:43 But it's work :) 20:21:57 Really, the colorizer is the hard part, and that's already *done*. The rest of it is "just" glue. 20:23:14 One other problem is that it treats everything as ISO-8859-1 internally, even though most of the pastes (at least from the last few years) are in UTF-8. That's pretty ugly. 20:24:36 *cky* should write a version just for fun. In my Copious Free Time, of course. 20:24:46 s/write/port/ 20:25:14 As much as I don't like SQL, using SQLite would probably be a good idea. In particular, it'd solve one other big limitation of the current codebase: full-text search. 20:25:41 cky: Well, that's just the problem, isn't it? 20:25:54 chandler: Indeed. 20:26:10 chandler: Most of my recent open source work has been work-related. And it seems that way with most programmers, for sure. 20:26:39 If anybody had a round tuit, I'd be glad to provide insights on how it works now and detailed implementation advice and support. But I don't have time to do it myself. 20:26:52 And, I just can't make a way to swing a paste bot as a work project. I would I could. :-P 20:28:00 chandler: Are you going to be around (on IRC) around Christmas or thereabouts? I could probably (if I don't have too much RL commitments) try to make that time productive. 20:28:47 Of course I'll only be too happy to read whatever documentation you've already written. 20:29:06 Er, heh. Documentation. Very funny. 20:29:18 Got any other good ones? 20:29:36 I'll probably be around. Ping me if you'd like. 20:30:03 It would be *great* if other people pitched in too. Many hands make light work. 20:30:03 :-P 20:30:19 *cough* *cough* sjamaan, alaricsp, etc... 20:30:48 Hehehehe. 20:30:49 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 20:31:03 ...is that the sound of ASau volunteering? :-P 20:31:31 -!- drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:32:12 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:30 I've got a backup system to test over Christmas, but if I can spare any time beyond that, I'll ask chandler who's doing what - are you happy to be the central clearinghouse for lisppaste surgery volunteering, chandler? 20:33:40 Yup, I am. 20:33:57 Cheers 20:38:33 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 20:38:36 Scheme > Linux 20:38:53 Apples > Iguanas 20:39:13 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:39:35 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #scheme 20:42:56 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:44:29 -!- 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#scheme 21:57:55 pr_ [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #scheme 21:57:55 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 21:57:55 borism [~boris@ec2-79-125-58-77.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 21:58:08 la la la 22:00:41 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 22:04:22 drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has joined #scheme 22:05:10 NNshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:05:44 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-11.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:07:23 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-11.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:07:34 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:08:19 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e0b815c.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 22:11:01 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90E6A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:11:15 What's the model called when you draw out an upside down tree to describe a computational process? 22:12:52 Tree recursion? 22:15:05 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:04 pothos_ [~pothos@111-240-221-234.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 22:20:31 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-210-81.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:20:37 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 22:23:04 -!- Checkie [17414@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 22:30:43 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-75.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:33:47 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-75.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:29 What does the term, "The way in which you construct a recursive process is by wishful thinking." mean? 22:44:31 -!- minsa [minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:45:09 i guess it alludes to recursive processes as being difficult to understand 22:45:32 but sometimes you can construct recursive functions mechanically by following data definitions 22:46:56 -!- 18VABXQL6 [~mathk@lns-bzn-37-82-253-36-67.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:12 mathk_ [~mathk@194.177.61.156] has joined #scheme 22:49:30 DrDuck, it means you wish you already had a recursive process, and then you describe how to build the recursive process under the assumption that your wish has been granted. 22:50:49 `How do you compute the factorial of n?' `Well, if n is less than 2, then it's 1; otherwise, gosh...I wish I had a procedure to compute factorials, because then I could use that to compute the factorial of n - 1, and multiply the result by n, to find the factorial of n.' 22:50:51 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:58:20 Riastradh: clean explanation. mine would have been much clunkier. 22:58:47 -!- TheSeparateFirst [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:10 SICP is definitely not going to be easy. 23:01:35 If it were easy then it wouldn't be worth reading 23:02:22 True. Just was hoping I'd be able to get most of it done this month - just started. I'm seeing that won't be the case, but yes, it will be fun and worth reading. 23:02:32 hmm 23:02:52 is there a way to "glue" together a list of symbols? 23:03:00 for example '(c a r) -> 'car or something 23:03:54 Caleb--: symbol->string, string-append, string->symbol 23:04:13 is there anything totally basic? 23:04:22 that is, something i could write myself 23:04:47 the composition of three functions (four, including MAP) from the spec is what I call "basic". 23:05:11 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 23:05:21 Five: "apply". 23:05:22 we didn't learn any of this, that is why i'm asking 23:05:34 or maybe i'm just not understanding the question correctly 23:06:21 Caleb--: here's a hint: (string->symbol (string-append (symbol->string 'foo) (symbol->string 'bar))) 23:06:39 *You*'re asking the quesion, not *us* 23:06:42 http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.tau.ac.il%2F~scheme%2Fmavo-fall-2010%2FHomework%2Fhomework7_f11.doc 23:06:42 http://tinyurl.com/27v9en5 23:06:46 the first question here 23:07:25 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 23:07:46 Ho, you can do it another way 23:07:59 did you just call me a ho? 23:08:01 :P 23:08:21 i'm not sure what they are expecting me to return 23:08:38 Caleb--: It's a good idea to flag homework questions as such. 23:08:50 You *could* also do it by analysing each symbol, and use LIST-REF and CDR manually I think. 23:08:58 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-75.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:17 Axioplase_: You don't need "list-ref", just "car". 23:09:23 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-75.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:09:35 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:54 Caleb--: According to the file, it should return a function that behaves like what the input looks like, or does nothing if the input is "invalid". 23:09:57 chandler: indeed. 23:10:21 ok 23:10:38 *Caleb--* goes back to the drawing board 23:10:58 Caleb--: This is a recursive problem. Ignore the "c" and "r" symbols for now. 23:11:09 that's what i was going to do 23:11:24 Write a helper function that just works on the symbols between them. 23:11:33 no more spoilers!: P 23:11:47 *Axioplase_* spoils no more and goes back to his stuff 23:21:42 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:22:05 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 23:25:23 chandler, i can create a list such as '((c a a d r) (c a ar)), but how would i actually treat them as functions? 23:25:30 i have a solution though 23:25:47 to compose a series of car/cdrs 23:26:00 but that's a lot of function calls ;p 23:26:27 I think you're on the right track. 23:26:43 rudybot: eval caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar 23:26:45 chandler: your racket/load sandbox is ready 23:26:45 chandler: error: reference to undefined identifier: caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar 23:26:52 Your function should work for the corresponding list. 23:27:22 the limit is 4 a/d's between the 'c' and 'r' i think 23:27:33 oh 23:27:37 it doesn't matter in my case 23:28:05 since i'm just returning a function, and not a string ^_^ 23:28:23 my confusion stemmed from the fact that i thought that i was supposed to return a symbolic string such as: (caddr (caar x)) 23:29:11 *Caleb--* high-fives chandler 23:39:20 *cky* just noticed that offby1 is an Ibis Reader user. :-P (From browsing the Ibis Reader support tickets. :-P) 23:39:35 Well met! :-P 23:40:52 Or rather, well met, small world, etc. 23:43:26 Caleb--: (caddr (caar x)) is not a string, it's a sexp. 23:43:49 i wrote something 23:43:57 it's sexy as hell. 23:44:38 Caleb--: if you don't understand that it's a sexp, and what a sexp is, I'm not surprised you imagine foolish things then. 23:46:04 pjb: speaking of which: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/charlesbab141832.html 23:46:39 pjb, thanks for the very helpful commentary. 23:47:02 klutometis: indeed. Caleb-- read that quote. It's the same for your brain. 23:47:43 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:48:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117786 23:49:41 Looks good. Does it work? 23:49:44 yes 23:50:09 Great. 23:50:21 and i did it all without knowing what a 'sexp' is. 23:50:33 Caleb--: sexp is short for S-expression. 23:50:44 And S is short for symbolic. 23:50:52 Caleb--: You know, (those (brackety) things you (frequently) see)? 23:50:53 -!- alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:51:02 (c a d a r) is a symbolic expression. 23:51:08 i thought that was called a combination expression or something 23:51:40 Caleb--: Now you know. 23:51:41 :-P 23:51:56 S-expression, sexp, symbolic expression---choose one. :-P 23:52:14 (lambda (x) (car (cdr (car x)))) is another symbolic expression. Evaluating it would give a function that would require less complexity in the compiler to generate efficient code than the function returned by your select function ;-) 23:53:02 oh, i meant to say "compound expression" 23:53:03 Complexity schmomplexity. :-P 23:53:21 sorry, it's almost 2am 23:53:33 ...almost time for me to go make dinner. :-P 23:55:05 time to do ex. 2 23:55:45 so, aren't the bracketed expressions also called compound expressions? 23:55:54 TheSeparateOne [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:56:39 "Expressions such as these, formed by delimiting a list of expressions within parentheses in order to denote procedure application, are called combinations. The leftmost element in the list is called the operator, and the other elements are called operands. The value of a combination is obtained by applying the procedure specified by the operator to the arguments that are the values of the 23:56:39 operands. 23:59:12 -!- drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:59:37 Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.90] has joined #scheme