00:07:38 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:08:58 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:11:24 cky: no need; finally got it 00:11:26 surprisingly tricky 00:11:41 Hehehehe, aww.... 00:11:46 I'm now obsessively cleaning it up before I allow anyone to see it (and that includes doing "git rebase -i" :-) 00:11:53 :-P 00:11:59 NO ONE SHALL KNOW MY SEKRITS 00:12:05 Bwahahaha! 00:12:48 This is RC4 you're talking about, right? 00:13:03 ya 00:13:03 Or, ahem, excuse me: ARC4. 00:13:33 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e064cc1.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 00:17:17 Hmm...I know that some people still use it, but I'm not sure I'd trust it to keep anything very secret these days. 00:19:23 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:19:45 I don't know any good reasons to use any symmetric cipher predating AES in new applications these days. 00:20:37 s/good//1 00:21:16 trance [~trance@unaffiliated/trance] has joined #scheme 00:21:59 cky: https://github.com/offby1/doodles/tree/master/ciphersaber/ , although actually it's just RC4, not Cipheraber 00:22:14 offby1: :-) 00:22:17 Riastradh: RC4 is superior to AES in this way: it's more fun. 00:22:41 Riastradh: In terms of security, indeed AES should be the default choice. 00:23:04 offby1: Well, at least now you can make a start to implementing CipherSaber-2. :-) 00:23:07 In terms of security, 99.99% of us shouldn't even be thinking about this stuff. 00:23:13 We should be using whatever comes with our infrastructure. 00:23:18 It's really not a huge tweak to RC4, so, you should have no trouble. ;-) 00:23:22 yeah 00:24:25 I'll grant that RC4 is much simpler than AES. But there are other simple ciphers that aren't as sketchy these days as RC4. For example, Salsa20. 00:25:48 <3 djb. 00:25:57 I must try implementing Salsa20 in Scheme. 00:26:31 I disagree that 99.99% of us shouldn't even be thinking about this stuff. Shouldn't be making decisions about this stuff, sure; but there is nevertheless merit to having a large number of people know enough about crypto to raise red flags when they see sketchy decisions. 00:26:38 I think someone has built chips that are specialized for Salsa 00:26:47 ah, ok 00:26:56 *nods* 00:30:56 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:35 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 00:33:25 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:35:50 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:36:43 Maxels [~Maxel@99.72.125.181] has joined #scheme 00:37:53 Maxel_ [Maxel@137.28.70.229] has joined #scheme 00:38:19 -!- Maxel [Maxel@137.28.70.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40:08 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:41:19 Riastradh: or at least, contemporaneous to AES. AES has the most analysis of anything, including maybe DES. 00:41:23 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@99.72.125.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41:45 but Twofish and Serpent both _look_ more secure than AES by many credible accounts 00:41:58 What sentence were you completing with `contemporaneous to AES'? 00:42:02 and are probably good choices for chaining with AES 00:42:22 "I don't know any good reasons to use" 00:44:19 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:47 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 00:45:05 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 00:46:58 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:50:20 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:29 -!- jao [~user@141.Red-79-145-118.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:01:35 -!- jengle [~jengle@64.252.19.83] has quit [Quit: jengle] 01:01:39 snap 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has joined #scheme 05:13:10 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:28:03 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:37:33 -!- quantum [~nurlan@109.127.27.188] has left #scheme 05:39:00 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 05:39:03 cky: OK, I declare my CipherSaber thing done. Got my certificate and everything :) 05:45:52 offby1: Yay! \o/ 05:46:13 I'll look at your solution and see how it compares to mine. 05:46:13 'twas fun, but frankly, a lotta nerds get all wankulous about encryption. 05:46:24 Yep. :-) 05:46:49 You're welcome to look at my solutions also. My old and new versions use totally different approaches. 05:47:02 I like the new version better, of course. 05:47:04 it holds a weird attraction for us, out of proportion to its actual value 05:47:19 Well, because it's oh so algorithmic. :-) 05:47:22 where's your stuff at? I didn't notice links from your SO profile 05:47:38 It's on the blurb box. See the bottom. :-) 05:47:53 (Bottom of the blurb box, of course, not bottom of the page.) 05:48:10 oh I see 05:48:46 huh, you use streams ... I sorta kinda did, too 05:48:56 I don't even know why I did. It just seemed the most natural way 05:49:19 ah, I see you use "cut" a lot. I used to use "cut", too, before I discovered ... 05:49:24 <> 05:49:25 ... 05:49:26 curry! 05:49:30 Nice! :-) 05:49:35 Is that in any SRFI? 05:49:38 what is CipherSaber anyway 05:49:47 Adamant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CipherSaber 05:50:03 cky: don't think so. 05:50:15 I care not a whit for portability; I use whatever I can grab outta Racket. 05:50:26 Fair enough. :-) 05:50:38 rudybot: doc curry 05:50:38 *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/procedures.html#(def._((lib._racket%2Ffunction..rkt)._curry)) 05:50:42 ewwww 05:50:54 besides the political goals, which are looking less realistic these days 05:50:55 rudybot: doc Holliday 05:50:56 *offby1: not found in any library's documentation: Holliday 05:50:58 kill it with fire 05:51:00 rudybot: doc Martins 05:51:01 *offby1: not found in any library's documentation: Martins 05:51:20 that's some oogly crypto. 05:51:25 Adamant: I look at it as a form of code kata. :-P 05:51:33 fair enough :P 05:51:57 . o O (if we have code kata, what's code randori?) 05:51:58 cky: it's hard to be sure, but I suspect deep down your code is the same as mine. (Of course, deep enough down, it _has_ to be; it's the same algorithm) 05:52:36 .oO("kaukonen cipher"?) 05:52:43 Jorma be doin' crypto now? 05:52:45 Ragtime crypto! 05:52:54 do waaat 05:53:17 hello my baby, hello my darlin', hello my ragtime crypto? 05:53:25 God, I hate these paste sites that tart up the code with colors, and a black background. 05:53:30 JUST GIMME THE DAMN BYTES 05:53:37 is kaukonen Finnish? 05:53:42 ya 05:53:54 yah, for sure, you betcha 05:54:00 offby1: Awwww... (maybe I should paste a version on paste.lisp.org and link to that) 05:54:01 (actually that's Swedish) 05:54:06 Adamant: Jorma Kaukonen is a rock guitarist who plays a lot of ragtime, like that of the Reverend Gary Davis. 05:54:07 Fun stuff 05:54:10 if you like that sort of thing 05:54:11 ah 05:54:27 I was thinking it was the guy from Lonely Island 05:54:41 You may know him from Jefferson Airplane and Hot Tuna, the latter of which is still occasionally around. 05:55:00 interestant 05:55:06 but without accent marks 05:57:57 *cky* checks out offby1's solution now. :-) 06:18:24 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@239-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:23:07 Is there a way in Racket to obtain information from a procedure object? What I mean is, e.g. if you just write + by itself, you get a reference to the add function; is there any way, given such a reference, to obtain e.g. arity, type information etc.? 06:24:09 (procedure-arity +) 06:24:22 thanks! 06:24:41 there is no type information exactly.. but you can extract the contracts, is that what you want? 06:24:49 assuming there is a contract to begin with 06:24:54 I think so, yes 06:25:44 (contract-name (value-contract something)) 06:25:50 where `something' has a contract on it 06:25:58 Cool, thanks 06:26:34 (define/contract (foo x) (-> number? number?) 5) 06:26:34 -> foo 06:26:35 # 06:26:35 -> (value-contract foo) 06:26:35 #<|chaperone->|> 06:26:35 -> (contract-name (value-contract foo)) 06:26:37 '(-> number? number?) 06:26:38 seems to work 06:29:52 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:45:23 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:47:26 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 06:51:59 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:03:52 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has joined #scheme 07:11:14 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:15:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-134.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:21:48 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:23:42 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 07:27:33 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 07:51:49 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:49 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:27 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 08:00:56 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 08:01:03 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 08:05:36 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:14 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 08:32:03 In racket again, I'm trying to write a macro that needs to recursively step through the expression body, carrying out a transformation 08:32:24 I have the transformation written as a normal function, but it seems that's not allowed 08:32:56 So what I'm trying to do is stick that function into the macro definition body with let... my-transformation... lambda... 08:33:00 Is that the recommended way to do it? 08:36:38 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 08:36:58 Because it seems to be barfing on the recursive call 08:40:52 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:41:02 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:47:00 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:51:43 -!- Maxel [Maxel@137.28.70.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:58 Maxel [Maxel@137.28.70.229] has joined #scheme 08:54:03 karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 08:56:56 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:02:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-134.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:56 -!- turbofail [~user@c-67-180-111-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:12:20 Riastradh: it's been not so long ago when I needed 5-bit arithmetics. 09:13:00 Riastradh: there're some h/w protocols that make you want to use 10 and 14-bit 2-complement arithmetics. 09:19:05 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e064cc1.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 09:20:43 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-71.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 09:26:12 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 09:44:05 -!- aack`` [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:20 aack`` [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 09:55:27 -!- aack`` [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:55:49 aack`` [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 10:01:03 "As memory is becoming cheaper, even microcomputers could be built having these primitives, so that the prospect of controlling one's kitchen stove with LISP is not so far-fetched." H. Baker, 1977 10:01:34 cool 10:04:22 Optimism! 10:04:46 Do you have a picture of Baker, we could make a motivational poster... 10:04:54 Some people have been talking in here about real-time collection, so I dug up some papers and spotted that gem 10:07:06 pjb: :) 10:09:20 Maddas [~maddas@74.125.121.33] has joined #scheme 10:14:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 10:19:05 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:19:15 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:30:42 masm [~masm@bl15-235-111.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:32:00 So, why don't current implementations offer bounded-time incremental collection? (Or do they? Most of them seem not to.) 10:33:55 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 10:41:07 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:44:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 10:47:50 It's a wonder. 10:47:59 I didn't see any drawback to the RT GC. 10:51:43 has anyone here tried kawa on android? 11:05:19 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-bzplniwfrajltkmd] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:12:00 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 11:12:01 ski [~slj@c-2911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 11:18:50 timj [~timj@e176193000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 11:25:08 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 11:27:52 -!- somnium [~user@184.42.17.189] has left #scheme 11:30:01 abstractj [~shadow_wa@189.67.194.101] has joined #scheme 11:31:19 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 11:31:56 -!- aack`` 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has joined #scheme 13:59:42 pumpkin [~pumpkin@131.247.67.79] has joined #scheme 14:06:03 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@131.247.67.79] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:06:09 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 14:08:56 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:09:42 timj_ [~timj@e176201191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 14:10:13 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.179.244] has joined #scheme 14:10:21 pumpkin [~pumpkin@131.247.67.79] has joined #scheme 14:11:03 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 14:13:03 -!- timj [~timj@e176193000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:15:14 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176201191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:15:23 timj [~timj@e176201191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 14:17:01 Jafet: well, microcomputers can run full-blown Common Lisp already, 14:18:04 the problem is that I don't know if any implementation supports features we need. 14:22:30 evhan [~evanhanso@dyn-72-33-119-175.uwnet.wisc.edu] has joined #scheme 14:27:25 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:12 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 14:28:28 -!- abstractj [~shadow_wa@187.82.172.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:28:54 samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:32:25 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 14:36:20 chupish [182e16d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.22.215] has joined #scheme 14:39:18 -!- evhan [~evanhanso@dyn-72-33-119-175.uwnet.wisc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:39:32 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 14:43:17 evhan [~evanhanso@dyn-72-33-119-175.uwnet.wisc.edu] has joined #scheme 14:44:26 taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95B80.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:47:47 -!- 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this =) 16:16:45 Do you want to change the same list or produce a new copy withj the first element changed? 16:16:48 with* 16:16:59 In other words, do you want to mutate the original list? 16:17:15 I wanna change the same list, so just replace the first element with an other. 16:17:35 Mutation is for losers! :P 16:17:37 Hm, something like this might work 16:18:01 Isn't set-car! what he wants? 16:18:03 :-) what's the function to use? (mutate myList newElement) ? 16:18:14 John_1111: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_398 16:18:15 http://tinyurl.com/b3n6ur 16:18:35 (define changeFirst (lambda (lst elem) (if (list? lst) (set! (car lst) elem) (list elem)))) 16:18:58 That should do the trick, modulo syntax errors. 16:19:06 You guys are too helpful. My answer would have been RPLACA. :-P 16:19:32 which language level to use? 16:19:40 module 16:19:52 Here, lete me test it 16:20:13 Hm, apparently set-car! and set-cdr" aren't in R6RS.. 16:20:19 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:20:25 gtfo 16:20:37 franki^: I think you have to import a specific module to use them. 16:20:45 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:20:46 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:21:05 Well we can derive them, I think. 16:21:20 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:21:27 franki^: (rnrs mutable-pairs (6)) 16:21:30 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:35 set!: expected a defined name after `set!', but found something else 16:21:45 cky: Well, I don't use an R6RS conforming implementation, nor do I use set-car! or set-cdr! if I can avoid them :) 16:21:46 I'm working on an alternative 16:21:47 John_1111: Not set!, set-car!. 16:21:57 franki^: Of course, wise idea. 16:22:17 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:22:18 askhader: Be sure to name your alternative RPLACA. :-P 16:22:34 Hm i'm not familiar with that function 16:22:51 askhader: That's what set-car! is called in Common Lisp. :-P 16:22:57 Ah 16:23:00 The syntax (set! (car x) ...) is non-standard, and not widely supported by default. 16:23:02 Is it available in rnrs ? 16:23:09 I don't expect it to be. 16:23:09 askhader: Nope. :-P 16:23:13 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:23:25 Honestly I wouldn't be mutating the pair, I'm just humoring him as an excersice. 16:23:32 askhader: Agree. 16:23:33 There is no n for which the RnRS defines the meaning of (set! (...) ...). 16:23:41 I read 'Learn Scheme in Fixnum Days' last night and am insipred =P 16:23:44 askhader: it's an SRFI: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-17/srfi-17.html 16:23:54 Oh. 16:23:57 That's news to me. 16:24:17 askhader: SRFI 17 is extended set! syntax, not Common Lisp compatibility. :-P 16:24:35 Oh wait. Maybe that was what you were asking. :-P 16:24:38 So these special forms are not part of the scheme specification? 16:24:53 -!- John_1111 [~John_1111@s0495.dyn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: "Help! I've been g:lined from my mIRC!!" Bersirc 2.2: less n00bs [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]] 16:24:55 Basic set! is part of Scheme. Extended set! is not. 16:25:29 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:25:41 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:27:39 He already left ohsad. 16:30:29 I know, I had a good laugh. 16:30:55 No word of acknowledgement, let alone any thanks, for anyone who answered. Hilarity. 16:36:16 taylanub0 [~taylanub@p4FD96276.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:37:10 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95B80.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:37:12 -!- taylanub0 is now known as taylanub 16:37:28 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:41:18 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 16:41:23 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:42:01 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 16:50:15 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:53:37 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-232.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:54:37 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-66.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:03:24 firecrow8 [~fcrow@69.38.169.34] has joined #scheme 17:07:13 pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.175.136] has joined #scheme 17:12:56 -!- bsod1 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[Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:07:47 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-23-214.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:10:02 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 20:10:38 hotblack23 [~jh@p57BD6BA4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:13:20 schmir [~schmir@p54A902E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:13:53 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 20:20:52 -!- tab1ta [~acamellin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-67-149.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:21:26 -!- femtooo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:24:42 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:14 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 20:36:37 does anyone here know how to get bigloo to package all the necessary dependent bigloo system .class files into a jar with the generated code? 20:37:02 tab1ta [~acamellin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-68-3.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 20:45:07 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@j-55.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:56 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.129.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:53:31 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 20:57:47 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD96276.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4-dev] 21:02:37 -!- abstractj [~shadow_wa@187.82.247.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:06:02 -!- ski [~slj@c-2911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:19 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-159.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 21:07:50 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-23-214.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:08:20 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.203.98] has joined #scheme 21:09:02 ski [~slj@c-2911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 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[~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 21:37:01 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@239-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:42:46 schmir [~schmir@p54A902E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:44:02 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:04 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A902E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:11 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 21:55:53 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-159.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:56:20 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-55-185.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 21:57:23 so i'm hiring a subcontractor to do some scheme work, and he claims that he can't work in scheme because of impure function/mutation promiscuity. 21:57:51 so get another subcontractor 21:58:02 so i ask him to implement monads (since closures and first order functions seem to suffice); he rejoins, however, that we need a full type system to do it sensibly. 21:58:14 so, he wants to use haskell? 21:58:25 Fare: that's occam's approach, for sure. 21:58:33 looks like it. 21:58:37 fire him, get another one. 21:58:53 Sounds like an idiot 21:58:54 if you had to hire a scheme subcontractor, where would you look? 21:58:58 You hired him for Scheme work 21:59:03 if you care about the language, add it as a requirement in the job listing 21:59:07 Why the hell is he bitching about Scheme's fundamental properties then? 21:59:23 klutometis: lispjobs! 21:59:32 sjamaan: prima donna syndrome 21:59:35 good call! 21:59:59 specify the specific scheme implementation, too 22:00:42 imran_sr [~imran@75-18-254-4.lightspeed.uncyca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:02:30 klutometis: IIRC there's also a "jobs" section on schemers.org but I doubt anyone looks there 22:02:57 schmir [~schmir@p54A902E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:02:58 (it has usenet posts from 2005 and such stuff, I think) 22:03:14 sjamaan: heh, there's even one from 2001. 22:03:19 :) 22:03:53 klutometis: what's the job about? 22:03:55 i wonder if the 37 signals board would bear fruit; seems to sexy, though. 22:04:24 s/to/too/ 22:04:54 You could try c.l.s. 22:05:45 sjamaan: that's another good idea 22:06:57 -!- choas [~lars@p578F6FE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:07:08 *sjamaan* -> bed 22:07:13 good night 22:09:29 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-140.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 22:11:30 new york city has a lisp group http://lispnyc.org/ I believe you can post jobs there 22:11:34 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 22:15:14 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A902E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:16:13 firecrow8: interesting; thanks. 22:16:52 more fundamentally, though, do monads even make sense in scheme? they seem to be a superfluous abstraction. 22:17:59 -!- Maxel_ [Maxel@137.28.70.253] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:42 Yes, if you write monad-generic code (i.e., code that is independent of the monad in question), or exploit the property that an action is a first-class value rather than simply a second-class phenomenon in the execution of the program. 22:23:34 abstractj [~shadow_wa@187.56.174.29] has joined #scheme 22:23:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:18 Or, if the structure helps to clarify your program. 22:29:10 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 22:29:50 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.functional/msg/2fde5545c6657c81?pli=1 22:29:52 http://tinyurl.com/36hy998 22:31:38 Riastradh: oleg seemed to have conjured up an example of notated trees where monads might be useful; but there are much more dogmatic users of monads in the name of "purity" which i don't fully understand. 22:32:17 it's an a priori monadism to avoid mutation even where mutation is conceptually appropriate. 22:32:25 When `purity' is used as anything but a technical term, I stop listening. 22:41:18 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:41:22 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-140.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:46:33 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-123-71.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:49:18 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-49-187.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:53:26 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.175.136] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:17 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-55-185.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:56:43 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@131.247.67.79] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:57:54 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-46-152.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:01:44 Mandar [~armand@std93-4-82-229-217-11.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 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