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04:23:32 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 04:24:09 Zot! 04:26:02 I agree. 04:26:19 Well, then why don't you DO something about it? 04:26:31 Don't just sit around and talk all day! 04:26:31 What makes you think I haven't? 04:26:54 You're funnier than a box of hairs. 04:45:20 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 04:55:34 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 04:56:52 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:57:19 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 05:16:31 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-60.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 05:16:53 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-79-74.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:30:56 dolohov [~root@unaffiliated/dolohov] has joined #scheme 05:31:06 I wish to learn about computer science, and want to take that journey with Lisp (I was recommended scheme, which is a dialect). I have also been recommended SICP, but it seems to require mathematics experience beyond my capabilities. 05:31:12 I'm 14, and never did well at math, I actually did awful. 05:32:08 -!- dolohov [~root@unaffiliated/dolohov] has quit [Client Quit] 05:33:41 -!- rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:33:52 antoszka_ [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 05:37:05 if he doesn't have the patience to wait for a reply for more than a minute, computer science seems like a bit of a stretch 05:37:49 dolohov [~root@unaffiliated/dolohov] has joined #scheme 05:37:56 sorry, I closed my terminal by accident 05:38:04 01:30 < dolohov> I wish to learn about computer science, and want to take that journey with Lisp (I was recommended scheme, which is a dialect). I have also been recommended SICP, but it seems to require mathematics experience beyond my capabilities. 05:38:09 01:30 < dolohov> I'm 14, and never did well at math, I actually did awful. 05:41:51 I don't think SICP is excessively mathematical 05:42:09 ,htdp 05:42:14 Hmph 05:42:18 !htdp 05:42:30 dolohov, I doubt whether the mathematics is beyond your capabilities! But you may not have been introduced to it yet, and, at the age of 14, I think few people have had any good introductions to mathematics. 05:42:33 it can be "formal", but it's a very different kind of math from what you're probably used to in school, and might be a lot more enjoyable than the rote exercises people usually get at that age 05:42:36 pumpkin: I saw one of the exercises 05:42:40 There is another option which some seem to think is less mathematical. 05:42:57 dolohov, you may wish to look into the book whose name franki^ is trying to invoke, called _How to Design Programs_. 05:43:20 Consider the encoding procedure that you designed in [Exercise 2-68], page 143. What is the order of growth in the number of steps needed to encode a symbol? Be sure to include the number of steps needed to search the symbol list at each node encountered. To answer this question in general is difficult. 05:43:30 Yeah, listen to what I mean, not what I say. :) 05:43:46 Riastradh: ok 05:43:54 dolohov, well, did you pick that exercise at random? 05:43:56 well is it better to start with common lisp or scheme? 05:43:59 Riastradh: yeah :/ 05:44:16 I just know that a lot of people have given up on sicp 05:44:23 because it was difficult, smarter people than i am. 05:44:30 It just makes me queasy. 05:44:34 In that case, it stands to reason that it will look a little alien: it refers to many things that the book introduced earlier. 05:45:11 Giving up on something isn't necessarily bad, as long as you learn from it. 05:45:21 *franki^* is a hopeless optimist 05:45:24 dolohov: it's a bit like opening a novel near the end and complaining that you don't know who any of the characters are :) 05:45:35 pumpkin: yeah. 05:45:54 so, scheme or cl? 05:45:55 I don't think there are many high schools out there that will introduce the notions of orders of growth or asymptotic notation, but SICP's use of them is pretty straightforward, and introduced toward the beginning. 05:46:08 Riastradh: hmm 05:46:21 well i don't think i've ever done well at math. 05:46:40 dolohov: as I said, the kind of math at your level of school tends to be boring and repetitive 05:46:41 but if it will teach me all i need to know to go through it 05:46:45 which many people dislike, even who know good math 05:47:46 Riastradh: does it? teach me all that i need to know to go through it, i mean 05:47:56 or does it expect knowledge already 05:49:05 And the notion of order of growth is very important in computer science, but not very hard to grasp -- it's essentially a language for describing how algorithms scale to large inputs. That is, if you graph how long it takes a program to give you an output, versus the size of the input, what you get is a picture of the order of growth of the program's running time. A line is one order of growth; a parabola is another. 05:49:55 SICP expects some knowledge. Not about orders of growth, or about Scheme, however. 05:50:03 Riastradh: I mean math ;) 05:50:08 It doesn't expect much knowledge, but it might not explain everything thoroughly enough for you. You can always look to other sources of information though, such as this channel or Google 05:51:44 dolohov: anyway, I think it's within a dedicated 14-year-old's grasp, but it's not going to be easy 05:52:08 :| 05:52:20 but it's not going to be ridiculously hard either 05:52:32 "stimulating" :P 05:52:38 I'd hope, anyway 05:52:50 Skim through the beginning of SICP and the beginning of HtDP; see which one appeals to you more. They're both freely available on the web. 05:52:58 I have a pdf of SICP. 05:54:20 If you have questions, you're welcome to ask them here. 05:55:36 *dolohov* nods. 05:55:36 thanks 05:56:28 Also, concerning Scheme vs Common Lisp for a novice: Scheme, without hesitation. Common Lisp is an exceedingly complicated language with a number of fundamental flaws, and there is no book like either HtDP or SICP with Common Lisp instead of Scheme. 06:03:03 -!- pumpkin [~copumpkin@131.247.67.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:11:31 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-60.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:12:45 -!- dolohov [~root@unaffiliated/dolohov] has quit [Quit: WHO GAVE THE STOMACH FLU??????FUUUUU] 06:14:10 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-6-128.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 06:26:08 -!- msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:45 githogori [~githogori@73.sub-69-96-168.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 06:36:32 -!- githogori [~githogori@73.sub-69-96-168.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:42:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:44:35 pumpkin [~copumpkin@user-142hbak.cable.mindspring.com] has joined 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09:54:14 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-112-69.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 09:54:38 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-41-194.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:09:12 -!- msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has left #scheme 10:11:26 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:11:36 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:15:46 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e04acf0.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 10:17:00 nataraj [~nataraj@122.165.223.135] has joined #scheme 10:17:05 Hi 10:17:32 does scheme connect to mysql database? 10:17:46 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:19:09 nataraj: Why ask this question here again after just having asked it on scheme-reports? 10:19:45 need a fast answer, or i wont be able to embark on scheme 10:20:01 or else 10:20:29 "Scheme" does not provide anything like database connectivity. It has no place in a minimal language standards document 10:20:32 i mean, for a particular work 10:20:45 There are Scheme implementations which have mysql libraries available for them 10:21:58 well, the client is particular about mysql 10:22:25 IMHO, you'd better educate the client 10:23:02 Anyway, you can use mysql from some Schemes. Just pick one which supports what you need 10:23:10 ITC, need go for Ruby, which is bit 'schemish' 10:23:36 More "Smalltalkish" than "Schemish" 10:24:13 you mean the 'everything is an object' ? 10:24:35 what about code blocks and lambda? 10:25:14 What about them? 10:25:24 aint them schemish? 10:25:35 Not particularly 10:25:59 Smalltalk also has lambdas apparently 10:26:15 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2606 10:26:23 "03 Strange syntax for blocks" 10:26:24 so which of the popular languages can be called schemish? 10:26:34 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-63-83-105.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:27:15 Why does it matter? 10:27:33 would to stick to one kind 10:27:41 would like 10:29:50 Then use Scheme, jeez 10:30:29 wanna loose my job? 10:31:51 only C++ and Java cats all over, none heard of python,ruby, tcl.. let alone shceme 10:32:56 i done some good work on embedded with freepascal too, apart from ruby 10:33:07 dunh, but i am all alone 10:36:37 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 10:41:23 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:49 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-112-69.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:32 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-38-96.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 10:45:05 -!- ray_ is now known as ray 11:05:11 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:13:01 masm [~masm@2.80.146.105] has joined #scheme 11:40:29 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:45:03 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45:49 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 11:46:24 nataraj: you're not alone, you're lost in the wrong herd. 11:47:07 nataraj: besides, you don't ask or require your surgeon to use a specific kind of scalpel. Why should programmers be required to use specific tools? 11:54:12 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-38-96.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:55:02 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-210.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:55:47 pjb: because some other programmer will have to maintain the code 12:00:40 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-119.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 12:16:32 pjb, tell me, what do you do with scheme? 12:26:55 nataraj: maintenance is a double-edged sword, one could argue that in the long run, C++ is unmaintainable 12:28:57 furthermore, using "unheard-of" languages like scheme can actually solidify your job security, by requiring that you be the one they have to keep around to maintain it 12:32:48 adu: I'm not in industry, but if I was I'd fire someone who did something like that. Throw away their code and start again. I'm not against scheme, but job-security through obscurity is nasty. 12:34:36 I never said "obscurity", in fact thats the opposite of what I was trying to say 12:42:25 <_danb_> we need a killer app for scheme 12:44:14 <_danb_> personally I think we should recreate ruby in a dsl and then build an mvc framework on top of the plt web server 12:44:24 <_danb_> :) 12:54:42 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-49-74.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 12:54:43 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-210.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:54:49 "Scooby with Sails" 12:55:41 Session cookies would be known as Scooby Snacks 12:56:28 ok, we've done the hard work of marketing. Someone else can do the programming. 12:57:05 yay! 13:00:30 ok, for the time being i will stick to Armpit scheme on the micro controller 13:01:25 My hypothesis is that a language must have an eval procedure that takes a string and executes it in the current scope, before it will be popular in web applications 13:02:40 "Scooby with Sails" sounds good! 13:05:03 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:17:12 Jafet ,Clipper 5 had eval , but that before the web days 13:25:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 13:31:44 -!- nataraj [~nataraj@122.165.223.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:45:04 Jafet: because only web injection attacks are popular? 13:47:55 If the evidence is anything to go by, many developers seem to enjoy it 13:48:11 yeah, coz getting your site defaced is fun! 13:48:29 Another highly popular pasttime is an eval procedure that takes a string and executes it in *another* language, like SQL. 13:48:38 Somehow, people seem to not mind that one that much. 13:50:34 mmc [~michal@cs27124149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 13:54:27 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-49-74.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:54:57 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-40-82.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:56:25 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:59:47 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:34 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 14:06:36 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 14:13:00 Nshag [~none@AStrasbourg-151-1-12-135.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:16:01 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 14:25:21 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:26:49 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 14:28:59 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 14:35:02 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:54:16 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-170.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:54:19 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-40-82.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58:05 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 15:00:03 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:01:18 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 15:08:37 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:17:37 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:19:56 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 15:21:20 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:27:53 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #scheme 15:29:37 jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 15:37:36 "Skimpy on Snails" 15:42:46 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 15:55:11 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-45.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:55:29 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-170.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:56:32 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 15:59:55 kanak [~user@STUDENT-ONE-EIGHTEEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:00:43 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 16:02:12 -!- kanak [~user@STUDENT-ONE-EIGHTEEN.MIT.EDU] has left #scheme 16:03:10 What exactly happens, when I define a list and use three times the same content of the same list? (define foo (list 1 2 3)) (list foo foo foo) Is here the content of foo copied three times into the list or is it three times referenced? 16:03:36 the latter 16:04:06 a new list is constructed, which contains the earlier list three times 16:05:01 ,(let ((foo (list 1 2 3))) (let ((ll (list foo foo foo))) (set-car! (cdr foo) 0) ll)) 16:05:49 --> (1 0 3) ; rudybot has no set-car!... 16:06:02 rudybot: init r5rs 16:06:02 ski: your r5rs sandbox is ready 16:06:09 rudybot: eval (let ((foo (list 1 2 3))) (let ((ll (list foo foo foo))) (set-car! (cdr foo) 0) ll)) 16:06:10 ski: ; Value: {{1 0 3} {1 0 3} {1 0 3}} 16:06:21 thanks. 16:06:30 hmm.. good to know. 16:10:50 another headache I have, is that when I want to write a function, which works like with-input-from-string, then I need to pass it a thunk, but when I try to pass it something different like (read) it doesn't work and I try to understand why. 16:12:13 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:12:34 (with-input-from-string "foo" (read)) why uses read here the global input and not the input port bound to the string content? 16:13:15 -!- rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:39 fantazo: what does (read) return? 16:13:50 you're first calling `read', then sending the result of that to `with-input-from-string' 16:14:21 fantazo: in scheme, with-input-from-string is a function, not a macro! 16:14:49 yep, I also found that out at the moment. stupidness. 16:15:00 so you have to write: (with-input-from-string "foo" (lambda () (read))) 16:15:07 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 16:15:09 rudybot: eval (with-input-from-string "foo" read) 16:15:09 ski: ; Value: foo 16:15:56 rudybot: eval (with-input-from-string "foo bar" (lambda () (let* ((a (read)) (b (read))) (list a b)))) 16:15:56 ski: ; Value: (foo bar) 16:16:06 I still don't always know when something is a function and when it is a macro. 16:16:25 fantazo: that's why you must always lookup the operators in the reference. 16:36:40 mickn [~mickn@unaffiliated/mickn] has joined #scheme 16:38:14 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:39:08 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 16:48:45 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 16:53:31 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:40 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:55:53 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-71.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:57:14 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-45.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:57:15 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:02:48 rudybot: eval (with-input-from-string "foo bar" (lambda () (let ((a (read)) (b (read))) (list a b)))) 17:02:50 cky: your sandbox is ready 17:02:50 cky: ; Value: (foo bar) 17:03:16 Hehehehe, Racket does (in this instance) left-to-right evaluation of lambda arguments so using let was okay too. :-P 17:03:54 *ski* used `let*' for a reason .. 17:04:33 ski: I know let* is more portable in that it ensures a is the first read value and b is the second. 17:04:43 ski: I was using let to see if (in Racket's case) it's getting swapped around. 17:05:18 it is allowed to use different order, on every evaluation of the expression 17:05:23 Indeed. 17:05:36 It's effectively the same as: (lambda () (list (read) (read))) 17:05:42 which also can be different order each time, etc. 17:05:47 Racket guarantees left->right order. 17:05:53 Nice to know. :-) 17:06:14 ok 17:06:35 That's in both function calls, `let', and `map'/`for-each'. 17:06:54 Well, let is usually macro-expanded to function calls, so I see them as identical cases. 17:06:57 s/both/.../ 17:07:13 drdo` [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 17:07:44 for-each is required to be left-to-right by R5RS IIRC. map, well, given that map usually deals with lists, left-to-right would be the most straightforward implementation even if not otherwise guaranteed. 17:08:00 Not in racket -- `let' expands to `let-values', which is close to the primitive form. 17:08:18 Ah, fair enough. 17:08:26 I wish there was a gentoo racket package 17:08:29 R5RS, at least, doesn't require `map' to be left->right. 17:08:31 IIRC. 17:08:54 elly: But gentoo is doing source things anyway, right? 17:08:56 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:09:00 eli: Agree, it's not required but as I said, it seems to be the most straightforward way to implement it so unless an implementation wants to do concurrent mapping or something, usually left-to-right it is. 17:09:11 eli: mm? 17:09:42 eli: (Just by the fact that lists are not random-access.) 17:09:54 cky: I think that it's restricted like function arguments -- some sequential order, so concurrency is not allowed. 17:10:10 elly: gentoo packages are sources, no? 17:11:22 yeah, they are, but they do things like dependency resolution for me 17:12:19 elly: Get the new gr2 branch then, much fewer compile-time dependencies. 17:12:56 But you could also just compile the usual sources -- it's not like it has some huge set of exotic requirements. 17:13:06 doing so right now 17:13:24 (I've been using plt-scheme 4.2.2 all along, basically) 17:13:33 eli: Ah, okay, makes sense (re some sequential order required). 17:13:33 You could wait a day or two and jump to 5.0.2 17:41:20 Caleb-- [~caleb@bzq-79-180-20-227.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 17:41:23 hi 17:41:44 is there a way to "modify" (define) a variable in an if-clause? 17:42:06 modify means set! 17:42:14 yes 17:42:18 how do i do it? 17:42:31 (define x 5) (if #t (set! x 6) (set! x 2)) 17:42:59 damn, they haven't taught us that yet 17:43:01 i wonder if i could use it 17:43:08 well.. you really shouldnt use set! 17:43:16 sometimes its necessary but in functional programming is frowned upon 17:43:36 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:43:50 i have a situation where i need the value of a variable to be one thing or another depending if some other variable is even 17:44:08 so (if (even? n) (set to 1) (set to 2)) 17:44:10 for example 17:44:10 (let ([blah (if #t variable1 variable2)]) ..more code..) 17:44:22 haven't taught us "let" either 17:44:25 they* 17:44:27 :( 17:44:36 or (define blah (if (even? n) 1 2)) 17:44:46 i only know about define, if, cond, even?, odd?, remainder and quotient 17:45:04 i see 17:45:13 that'd work :D 17:45:53 i'm so used to be able to write multiple statements, under if-clauses, for example, and not being able to is pissing me off 17:46:01 not sure if could use (begin... ) 17:46:32 yea you can use begin with if 17:46:36 btw, why is using "set" frowned upon? 17:47:18 because it mixes up data flow with control flow, it means you cant just look at a part of the program and tell whats goin on 17:47:38 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:47:58 when you have a couple of variables all being mutated it becomes hard to know what value a variable has at any point 17:48:05 of course, if you only have maybe 1 variable its fine 17:49:49 i guess i'm just not used to functional languages then :/ 17:49:57 yea it takes a while 17:50:55 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@pD9E25F9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:51:04 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@245-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 17:51:09 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:51:54 can i print both variables and a string using (display)? 17:52:03 like (display "the value of x: " x) 17:52:37 well you can but not like that 17:52:40 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E25391.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:52:41 you can only display one thing at a time 17:52:43 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 17:52:50 (display "the value of x:") (display x) 17:52:56 ok 17:52:56 if you have printf thats usually easier to use 17:53:02 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 17:53:21 (printf "the value of x: ~a\n" x) 17:54:42 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-63-120.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 17:55:08 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-71.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:35 Caleb--: (map display `("the value of x: " ,x #\newline)) 17:56:36 :-P 17:57:11 barf! 17:57:15 Or, rather, for-each, not map. 17:57:21 *cky* needs to use for-each more frequently. 17:57:54 jonrafkind: :-P 17:58:10 Caleb--: (for-each display `("the value of x: " ,x #\newline)) 17:58:44 (My habit of using "map" rather than "for-each" came from code golf competitions, but, it's a bad habit and I must break it.) 18:00:56 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-25.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 18:01:40 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5B5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:04:00 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:04:29 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-119.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:07:45 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 18:08:15 cky, thanks :) 18:08:32 i'm only in my 2nd week of the semester 18:08:42 we only started learning Scheme, so they haven't taught us much 18:09:05 Caleb--: Indeed, and they also probably haven't taught you quasiquotation yet. :-P 18:09:16 nope 18:09:30 So, your markers might not appreciate your using quasiquotation like my example above. :-P 18:09:37 that's why i haven't used it :D 18:09:40 :-P 18:09:51 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:09:57 but i think that the code is being automatically tested 18:10:02 Ah, I see. *nods* 18:10:16 they prolly run some predefined tests on it to see if it produces the correct output 18:10:16 Well, if you're allowed to use "list", you can write (list "the value of x: " x #\newline) also. 18:10:27 no lists yet 18:10:31 only the basics 18:10:31 Not as compact as the quasiquote version, but. 18:10:32 Hmm. 18:10:55 define, if, cond, even?, odd?, remainder, quotient and lambda expressions are all i "officially" know right now 18:11:01 Hehehehehe. 18:11:11 Well, you can't even use for-each then. :-) 18:11:13 although in the recitation the guy did tell us about (begin), but i'm not sure if i should use it 18:11:17 no 18:11:32 :-P 18:11:33 we also loop only using recursion or tail recursion 18:11:45 Well, that's fine. 18:11:49 That's the standard way to loop in Scheme. 18:12:01 *Caleb--* lubs his whiles/fors 18:12:05 There is no "goto" or anything like that. 18:12:19 For: there's for-each (which you will like, I'm sure). 18:12:55 While: usually I just use either "do" or named "let". 18:13:00 But I guess you've not been taught any of those. 18:13:11 Behind the scenes they all loop using tail calls. 18:13:34 s/tail call/booty call/ 18:13:36 *offby1* ducks 18:13:40 offby1: Hehehehe. 18:13:43 hey, is it my fault they're synonyms? 18:13:49 :-P 18:13:51 one of the assignments was to write a small procedure called same-sum-half? that returns true if two halves of numbers have the same sum, for example for '12345' 1+2 ==? 4+5 it'd return false 18:14:30 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@245-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:14:48 Hahahahahahaha. 18:14:53 the first algorithm i wrote on a piece of paper had a while loop in it that did a couple of things... and i couldn't do it in Scheme 18:14:58 i had to rewrite the freaking thing 18:15:06 it'd be so easy in C 18:15:30 I wonder if your assignment allows you multiple passes through the string, or whether it's one-pass. 18:15:35 Multi-pass implementation is easy. 18:15:40 One-pass is slightly more interesting. 18:15:45 i split the number into two halvesl ike this: 18:15:54 ; Split the number "x" into two halves 18:15:54 (define lhalf (quotient x (exp 10 (quotient n 2)))) 18:15:54 (define rhalf (remainder x (exp 10 18:15:54 (if (even? n) (quotient n 2) (+ (quotient n 2) 1))))) 18:16:07 ow, use a paste site 18:16:07 n= number of digits 18:16:23 Caleb--: What offby1 means is, use paste.lisp.org to paste code. 18:16:26 Not within the channel. 18:16:28 ok 18:16:58 -!- mickn [~mickn@unaffiliated/mickn] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:17 lisppaste: url? 18:17:17 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 18:17:31 Caleb-- : use that ^ 18:17:32 Caleb--: I have to go grab lunch, but, when I return, I can look at anything you've lisppasted. 18:17:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116059 18:17:49 this is it 18:18:11 cky, bon apetit 18:18:25 Thanks. :-) 18:19:00 Caleb--: *lol* I see they don't let you use expt yet? 18:19:01 at first i wanted to find the middle of the number, then loop from the end and as long as i'm >mid sum each digit into rhalf (right half), once i go below mid, sum it into lhalf 18:19:11 Caleb--: That's the standard built-in function do exponentiate. 18:19:16 *to 18:19:19 merimus [~merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:19:21 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 18:19:23 cky, i know about it, but they didn't teach it, so i wrote something myself :P 18:19:45 Fine, but don't call it exp. (exp n) is e**n. 18:19:58 I mean, the code doesn't care, but a human reader might. 18:20:23 hmm 18:20:25 Anyway, I'll look at the rest of it when I get back. :-) 18:20:29 ok :) 18:20:36 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:20:36 i'll go do some calculus then 18:22:16 -!- merimus [~merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:12 banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has joined #scheme 18:23:35 hi, i want to install scheme for windows to play with Tiny-CLOS....which is the best scheme to get and where do i get it from? 18:23:43 (i see a lot of possible scheme downloads online) 18:24:40 Caleb--: does what you pasted work? It looks reasonable. 18:24:59 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:25:08 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@ip24-255-34-109.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 18:25:08 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@ip24-255-34-109.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:25:08 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:29:22 offby1, it does 18:31:09 yay 18:36:06 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok094010.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2/20100222071121]] 18:37:30 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.160] has joined #scheme 18:39:04 banisterfiend: I'm not sure if there is a "best Scheme". And I don't use Windows so I'm not sure I can offer any advice. I also don't know anything about Tiny-CLOS, but many Schemes have object systems. 18:39:24 offby1, my first scheme program :D 18:39:26 banisterfiend: So, in summary; I'm completely useless, but I didn't want you to feel like you were being ignored. :) 18:39:47 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:42:40 franki^: hehehehe, no problem, thanks for trying anyway! :) 18:43:55 banisterfiend: I'm reading about Tiny-CLOS now, and it appears that it should work with MIT-Scheme, Chez Scheme, Scheme48 and possibly others 18:44:27 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 18:44:40 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 18:46:07 franki^: great, which of those schemes do you use? 18:48:39 banisterfiend: I use MIT-Scheme, although I'm not really an expert, heh. I think there's a Windows binary available h ere:http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ 18:48:54 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 18:49:31 franki^: yep im getting it now :) 18:50:41 franki^: i'm actually shaving a yak here --- ultimately what i want to do is implement an MOP for Ruby. But in order to do that i have to learn more about MOP and Clos is the best way to do that..but I was too full-blown CLOS was a bit intimidating so i was to try tiny-CLOS, and tiny-CLOS is built on top of scheme....so ;) 18:51:03 i was told a full-blown* 18:51:06 Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 18:54:05 hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5B5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:54:19 banisterfiend: Well, hopefully someone else here could answer any more specific technical questions that you have about CLOS or MOP or object stuff in general. I'm fairly clueless about it myself. But I guess getting Tiny-CLOS running on something is a good start. :) 18:59:28 banisterfiend: instead of getting it to work, you could just read the sources -- *very* carefully since it has some pretty tricky points. 18:59:48 mmc1 [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:01:50 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27124149.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02:54 eli: thanks 19:03:15 franki^: im using 'edwin' to run mit scheme but i cant seem to get it to actually run any code, how do i do that? 19:03:59 jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 19:04:57 nevermind 19:05:02 c-x c-e :) 19:06:23 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #scheme 19:10:50 -!- mmc1 [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:44 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:16:37 -!- jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Quit: jengle] 19:19:14 alexsuraci` [~alex@166.132.144.14] has joined #scheme 19:19:18 -!- jao [~user@81.39.213.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:20:59 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 19:20:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:21:32 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:23:46 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:24:38 well i installed mit-scheme and so on...and i installed the files for tiny-clos 19:24:52 yet when i load tiny-clos.scm (it finds it) it then complains about not finding support.scm 19:25:02 but support.scm is in the same directory as tiny-clos.scm :/ 19:25:10 how do i get it to find it? 19:27:11 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:16 Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 19:28:21 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:29 ok got it working but i had to manually edit tiny-clos.scm to specify the path to support.scm direclty 19:30:14 mmc [~michal@cs27124149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:33:57 does anyone know why i'm getting "begin: bad syntax in: begin" on line 5 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116063 19:35:46 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:35:56 rdd [~user@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:35:58 Caleb--: cond is missing a pair of parenthesis 19:36:23 Caleb--: It is (cond ((condition) clause)) 19:36:32 danke 19:36:40 bitte :) 19:40:07 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 19:40:25 found a few more errors, now it works L:D 19:40:35 congratulations :) 19:43:42 i love scheme when it just works :P 19:43:56 i love assembly when it just works :p 19:44:01 :D 19:44:10 i had to start using the (begin) special form though 19:44:16 without it i had no idea what to do 19:44:31 when you are only limited to doing one operation per if/cond clause it's freaking hard 19:48:51 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:49:09 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 19:49:46 Caleb--: That's what begins for... 20:07:39 Actually it's (cond (condition clause) ...) 20:07:50 The condition itself can be a function application. 20:08:02 but it can just be a variable reference. 20:12:02 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:13:14 jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 20:13:36 pjb: right 20:16:07 hi all. 20:16:20 I'm STILL stuck on ex. 1-11 of sicp. 20:16:59 Some of you posted solutions but I didn't have logging turned on in my irc client, so if you're around could you send me your solution? 20:19:23 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@ip24-255-34-109.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:19:24 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@ip24-255-34-109.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:19:24 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 20:29:38 gimme link to the exercise 20:30:49 oh that. 20:35:02 piece of cake 20:35:19 jengle: what's your solution? 20:38:10 C-Keen: I don't have one that works :/ 20:38:22 for which version? 20:38:28 The iterative version 20:39:07 because it is not iterative or because it is not correct? 20:46:49 I guess because the one that works isn't iterative, and the one that's iterative doesn't work. ;) 20:47:40 jengle: Here are the links that were posted during the discussion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116032 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116025 http://fare.tunes.org/files/fun/fibonacci.lisp 20:47:57 Open them at your own risk! :) 20:52:27 mickn [~mickn@unaffiliated/mickn] has joined #scheme 20:52:37 jao [~user@141.Red-79-145-118.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:55:32 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 20:56:15 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:02:36 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-104.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 21:03:49 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:03:55 homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:05:26 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:34 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:16 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-174-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:02 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-174-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:10:05 -!- Nshag [~none@AStrasbourg-151-1-12-135.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:41 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:12:44 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:24:22 franki^: thanks 21:26:44 back to the drawing board... need to understand this. 21:27:32 -!- jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Quit: jengle] 21:28:56 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:30:18 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e04acf0.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 21:40:11 Bwahahahahahaha. 21:40:50 Re franki^ posting my solutions and making jengle's head spin. Poor jengle. :-P 21:41:06 schmir [~schmir@p54A90DCF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:41:10 (And posting Fare's even head-spinnier solution.) 21:45:27 banisterfiend: Also, re Tiny-CLOS: eli actually wrote a Tiny-CLOS-like thing for Racket, called Swindle. 21:45:42 banisterfiend: That's definitely one source of sources that you can look at, if you're taking his advice. 21:45:51 bgs100_ [~ian@h176.39.28.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 21:45:57 *cky* is catching up with the scrollback right now. 21:46:35 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:46:41 -!- bgs100_ [~ian@h176.39.28.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:58 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:47:22 Caleb--: cond actually has implicit begin. 21:49:34 rudybot: eval (define (foo n) (cond ((number? n) (display n) (display " is a number") (newline)) (else (display n) (display " isn't a number") (newline)))) 21:49:44 rudybot: eval (foo 42) 21:49:44 cky: ; stdout: "42 is a number\n" 21:49:51 Caleb--: ^^--- 21:50:07 Notice how in each branch I ran two display and one newline calls? 21:51:48 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90DCF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:48 rudybot: eval (foo 91) 21:54:58 *offby1* drums fingers 21:55:09 offby1: I think "my" environment can't be used in your session. :-( 21:55:20 apparently. 21:56:13 cky, cool! 21:56:20 Caleb--: :-) 21:56:51 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 21:56:51 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: foo in module: 'program 21:57:01 Caleb--: So if you don't want to get hassled by your marker for using begin, then just put multiple expressions in your cond. 21:57:04 No one will notice. ;-) 21:57:09 rudybot: eval (foo 91) 21:57:12 *offby1: ; stdout: "Ha ha! Sucker.\n" 21:57:25 :-( 21:57:38 Awwww.... 21:57:39 *Caleb--* fixes his code 21:57:52 rudybot: give cky foo 21:57:52 cky: offby1 has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 21:58:08 ?!!! 21:58:14 DO WHAT HE SAYS 21:58:21 rudybot: eval GRAB 21:58:21 cky: ; Value: # 21:58:25 Interesting. :-) 21:58:37 rudybot: eval (GRAB) 21:58:52 Too bad this isn't Guile. I could write (procedure-source GRAB). 21:58:53 rudybot: eval (say "what?") 21:58:53 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: say in module: 'program 21:58:59 i'm gone to bed 21:59:03 Caleb--: Have fun! 21:59:04 thanks for the help guys 21:59:39 Oh, why not. 21:59:46 rudybot: eval (GRAB) 21:59:46 cky: ; Value: # 21:59:57 Okay, interesting. 22:00:12 rudybot: eval ((GRAB) 42) 22:00:12 cky: ; stdout: "Ha ha! Sucker.\n" 22:00:15 Heh. 22:00:44 I want a value! 22:01:03 phirefly [~phirefly@85.sub-174-253-160.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 22:01:20 Hehehehe. I wonder how to send values like offby1 did. 22:01:28 hmm 22:02:07 rudybot: (define (gift . args) (display "For you, just because") (newline)) 22:02:08 *offby1: have him buy you a visa gift card and give you the number 22:02:12 rudybot: give elly gift 22:02:12 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: gift in module: 'program 22:02:16 :-| 22:02:24 rudybot: eval (define (gift . args) (display "For you, just because") (newline)) 22:02:24 rudybot: (define (s x) (if (= x 0) x (+ x (s (- x 1))))) 22:02:25 elly: Random question, is DEFINE PASSWD "passWord" visible to other users on VMS? 22:02:29 rudybot: give elly gift 22:02:29 elly: offby1 has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 22:02:31 rudybot: eval (define (s x) (if (= x 0) x (+ x (s (- x 1))))) 22:02:32 elly: your sandbox is ready 22:02:35 offby1: aw, for me? 22:02:39 rudybot: eval (GRAB) 22:02:39 elly: ; Value: # 22:02:49 I have a question, how do you define a function with n arguments such as "(+ 1 2 3)" 22:02:56 rudybot: eval ((GRAB) 'offby1) 22:02:56 elly: ; stdout: "For you, just because\n" 22:03:01 phirefly: 22:03:01 phirefly: (define (foo . args) ...) 22:03:04 phirefly: by coincidence, I did just that about 10 lines ago 22:03:06 oh, cky beat me to it 22:03:31 phirefly: Or, to have some mandatory arguments: (define (foo arg1 arg2 . rest) ...) 22:03:36 OK, 16 lines ago. 22:03:58 so the ... is necessary 22:04:05 well, not literally 22:04:06 phirefly: No, the ... is your procedure's code. 22:04:16 oh, thanx 22:06:44 My own question: if you use a dotted list in "define" to create a function that stuffs the rest arguments into a list, why doesn't a function call support a dotted-list syntax to auto-apply? :-P 22:07:33 don't ask pesky questions 22:07:38 Hehehehehe. 22:07:52 if functions can take any number of arguments, why do they always return exactly one value (unless you call "values")? 22:08:11 Dried-grape hysteria 22:08:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:08:29 Fairy nuff. :-) 22:10:23 cky: It would be a very limited syntax. (f . x) works, but (f . (map add1 x)) wouldn't for obvious reasons. 22:11:08 ...not even if just gets automagically transformed into the equivalent apply call? 22:11:18 How would it? 22:11:30 (f . (map add1 x)) is the same thing as (f map add1 x) . 22:11:43 True, that's a good point. 22:12:04 Thanks for providing a counterexample. 22:16:05 rudybot: eval (+ . (1 . (2 . (3)))) 22:16:05 cky: ; Value: 6 22:17:06 aDuck [~aduck@bl13-129-160.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 22:17:26 offby1: how about some patches? 22:17:35 why, are you trying to quit smoking? 22:17:39 ,rimshot 22:17:42 eli: sure. 22:18:02 :) 22:18:12 First, looks like you have a mistake there. 22:18:16 *gasp* 22:18:23 that's the FIRST time THAT's ever happened. 22:18:32 You committed `compiled' in the repo... 22:18:40 *offby1* looks 22:19:07 I did? 22:19:16 -!- mickn [~mickn@unaffiliated/mickn] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:19:25 Actually, possibly a leftover 22:19:32 I don't see it 22:19:45 It "just happens" that I keep getting it into the exact same place... 22:20:42 Yeah, my mistake. 22:20:54 Anyway, 22:21:22 I think that it might make sense to do this: when a line doesn't make any sense as a command, try to read it as a bunch of sexprs. 22:21:34 yeah, chandler wants that too. 22:21:46 If the result is a valid bunch of sexprs, then assume that it's evaluatable 22:21:51 I tried that once, and I'm embarrassed to report that the line-parsing code is so ugly, that it was pretty hard to do that. 22:22:06 *Except* for when you have symbols that are unbound. 22:22:30 This way if you say random stuff it won't be needed.. 22:22:39 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 22:36:17 eli: apparently using MOP you can redefine 'inheritance' what is the API for this? 22:40:30 banisterfiend: Each class is an instance of a `' -- and as usual in an OO system, a class determines how its instances behave, 22:40:54 so in the case of `' -- it determines how most classes behave, including how they inherit. 22:41:22 eli: hmm, say i wanted to change the way inheritance worked and say implement c3 linearization, is that possible? 22:41:34 Make a new subclass of `', then create classes by instanticating this class instead of `', and you can get a different inheritance behavior. 22:41:54 I don't remember what c3 is, but I don't see why not. 22:41:59 im just curious the way a new inheritance system would be expressed 22:42:16 like what API is provided to to set the superclass chains and so on? 22:50:38 banisterfiend: The original motivation in CLOS was being able to accomodate a few existing OOs in a single one. 22:50:47 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 22:51:18 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E25F9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:49 As for the API, just look in the source and see the methods that are defined for the standard `'. 22:52:16 eli: do you know any ruby? 22:53:04 rudybot: eval (version) 22:53:05 eli: your sandbox is ready 22:53:05 eli: ; Value: "5.0.1" 22:53:11 eli: pretty much i dont know any lisp/scheme but i do want to learn enough so as to implement some kind of MOP for ruby. However if you know Ruby perhaps you can tell me if this endevour even makes sense or is possible 22:53:16 banisterfiend: Not really. 22:53:35 Certainly not enough to tell if it makes sense or not. 22:53:41 ok 22:54:21 eli: know of any simple tutorials on MOP available on the net? 22:54:33 cos obviously im misunderstanding or not grasping something quite fundamental 22:57:40 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 22:57:47 pygospa [~pygospa@217.191.165.8] has joined #scheme 22:58:10 I don't know what you're misunderstand. For a book on the subject, look for the art of the meta object protocol. 22:58:29 offby1: How do I start it? 22:58:52 And is running main.rkt supposed to grab too much memory and die? 23:03:50 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5B5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:05:36 ./freenode-main.rkt 23:05:46 I recently added something that limits the memory it uses at startup 23:05:55 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.160] has left #scheme 23:05:59 it's snarfing up the quotes 23:06:19 -!- alexsuraci` [~alex@166.132.144.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:29 hm, must not have pushed that to github. 23:07:20 http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/commit/4c8d6334ac0f138cef06934515c2cc063bea3052 that's from August ... 23:07:20 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/26ddl86 23:07:25 rudybot_ [~luser@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:07:28 so if you have that, I don't know why it's using tons of memory. 23:08:38 offby1: Just running "main.rkt" made it crash, when I asked my shell to make a dump file, it froze and eventually made a >2gb dump. 23:09:40 When I eventually figured that I need to run "freenode-main.rkt", it complained about "parsed-log" missing. 23:09:58 *offby1* scratches head 23:10:10 main.rkt should run some unit tests. Those _might_ load an existing log file. 23:10:24 *offby1* about to leave for dinner 23:10:36 send me the SHA1 of what you're using; I'll see if I repro it 23:10:51 Just ran it. On a 64bit machine though. 23:11:21 Anyway, might be better to rename "main.rkt" to something like "test.rkt", given that every time I try it, it's the first thing I trip over. 23:11:27 -!- rudybot_ [~luser@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:40 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 23:13:39 not-rudy-bot [~luser@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:13:46 not-rudy-bot: eval 1 23:13:46 eli: your sandbox is ready 23:13:46 eli: ; Value: 1 23:15:12 not-rudy-bot: eval (values 1 (void) 3) 23:15:12 eli: ; Value: 1 23:15:13 eli: ; Value#3: 3 23:15:19 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:32 -!- phirefly [~phirefly@85.sub-174-253-160.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:18:30 -!- not-rudy-bot [~luser@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:39 not-rudy-bot [~luser@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:19:02 not-rudy-bot: eval (define (foo) 123) 23:19:02 eli: your sandbox is ready 23:19:07 -!- not-rudy-bot [~luser@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:04 not-rudy-bot [~luser@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:20:09 not-rudy-bot: eval (define (foo) 123) 23:20:10 eli: your sandbox is ready 23:20:10 eli: Done. 23:20:36 offby1: First commit will be that -- say something when no values are given. 23:22:05 *cky* looks forward to seeing eli's fork of rudybot. :-P 23:23:59 *eli* isn't into forking... 23:24:09 Caleb-- : `(if (= ...) #t #f)' is the same as `(= ...)' 23:26:14 What ski said. Any time I see #t used in code, I start to pay more attention because it's a sign of potential code smell. :-P 23:26:58 rudybot_ [~luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 23:27:01 -!- rudybot_ [~luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:16 O_o 23:30:31 -!- not-rudy-bot [~luser@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:42 not-rudy-bot [~luser@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:37:22 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 23:37:40 phirefly [~phirefly@157.sub-174-253-176.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 23:50:38 -!- phirefly [~phirefly@157.sub-174-253-176.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:51:26 somnium [~user@adsl-65-187-133.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme