00:00:59 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 00:04:56 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:13:31 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:15:02 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A91C8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:26 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:23:28 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:25:33 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:43 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:30:40 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:37:44 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:38:30 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@70-36-245-104.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:41:13 somnium [~user@adsl-65-187-133.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 00:43:33 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:49 MonononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:43:54 -!- MonononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:46:48 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:51:11 http://pastie.org/1254257 00:56:35 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-56-167.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:57:00 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-32-94.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 01:01:26 -!- mikeX [~mike@adsl-124.109.242.41.tellas.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:02:18 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:31 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:03:04 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:03:15 mikeX [~mike@adsl-42.79.107.41.tellas.gr] has joined #scheme 01:07:02 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@56.Red-88-11-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 01:07:51 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:14:02 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:48 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-183-232.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:26:29 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:33:29 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Nighty night] 01:40:14 Azuvix [~user@174-19-236-55.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:40:16 araujo: what language is that? 01:41:34 alexsuraci, http://gitorious.org/koan 01:41:41 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-shdvdppwrcoyqmuk] has joined #scheme 01:41:48 a new language I am writing ... inspired a little bit in scheme 01:42:21 ah, neat. working on one myself. :) also scheme-inspired with blocks. 01:42:36 heheh :D 01:44:16 here's mine: http://atomo-lang.org/ (prototyping + multiple dispatch -focused) 01:44:44 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-140-250.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:48:11 I would describe yours as 'smalltalk-inspired', alexsuraci :P 01:48:29 alexsuraci, ooh nice 01:48:39 I see you take a lot from smalltalk-like yeah 01:48:41 but nice :) 01:48:59 mine takes from smalltalk/scheme/perl/ruby 01:49:05 chturne [~chturne@nas45-44.york.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 01:49:06 elly: yeah, definitely; Slate moreso though, I've never actually used smalltalk at length 01:49:30 (Slate is sort of a smalltalk descendent) 01:49:36 I define it like an ... "objectified functional scripting language" 01:50:30 i like its (koan's) syntax. 01:50:55 gah. premature [return]. (.. seems light and airy.) 01:51:52 heh, we have almost the same block syntax actually; { a b | ... } vs. { :a :b | ... } 01:53:19 hehehe yeah 01:56:44 -!- mickn [~mickn@unaffiliated/mickn] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:01:43 oh, probably the main things it takes from scheme are parameters (implemented in the language), continuations, macros, and...naming style? 02:02:27 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-12-158.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:05:59 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-140-250.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:07:20 snap [adf@rrcs-97-77-52-170.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:09:11 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-12-158.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:10:49 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-shdvdppwrcoyqmuk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:16 alexsuraci, well, I guess the "clearer" scheme sign is in the polish notation .... 02:19:06 koan or atomo? 02:19:12 if you look closer at the syntax, you will see they are just S-expressions with some extra sugar :P 02:19:14 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-177.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:20 alexsuraci, oh, i am talking about koan 02:19:21 heh 02:21:13 yeah it still looks very schemey, just without parentheses 02:21:52 does it have macros? 02:24:10 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #scheme 02:25:15 alexsuraci, not yet 02:25:28 I am trying to figure out a "way" to get something like macros 02:25:34 but a bit different than scheme 02:26:34 I just implemented them in atomo over the past two days, fun stuff :) 02:27:32 converted a few choice methods to macros and saw great performance boosts (on the order of 5x faster) wherever they're used 02:27:53 examples: http://darcsden.com/alex/atomo/browse/examples/macros.atomo 02:29:31 -!- Azuvix [~user@174-19-236-55.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35:34 the ease of adding them in was largely because it already had first-class expressions, and other meta-information; just a matter of making the VM available to the parser 02:40:54 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 02:42:51 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 02:43:33 http://pastie.org/1254430 02:43:42 *araujo* just fixed a weird bug and pushes to repo 02:44:03 alexsuraci, check that quicksort example, notice like some things can be done in different ways ... like for example ... 02:44:14 the '|' are not mandatories for blocks arguments 02:44:31 ^{ :n n } 9 => 9 02:44:39 mainly to keep it handy for small expressions 02:44:46 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-qckyiedfjiwdnhkz] has joined #scheme 02:46:07 neat; atomo uses particles (partial messages) for that I suppose. @(+ 2) call: [1] -> 3, @(at: 0 put: _) call: [[1], 2] -> [2] 02:47:08 oh, interest the way you implement partial messages :) 02:47:17 interesting* 02:47:39 http://atomo-lang.org/docs/particles.html for more info; they're used a lot, in varying contexts 02:48:25 in fact Slate is adopting them now :) 02:50:47 partial evaluation is handy yes 02:51:01 I had some code around to implement it in koan .. just bit buggy yet 02:51:12 have* 02:51:47 not quite partial evaluation - everything in the particle is evaluated eagerly. it can just be "completed" as a message and dispatched. 02:51:55 same effect though 02:52:16 _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:52:36 timj_ [~timj@e176194064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:56 I see 02:55:07 -!- pumpkin [~copumpkin@131.247.67.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:58 -!- timj [~timj@e176197214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:01:24 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:01:35 -!- drdo [~user@93.108.192.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:04:14 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:12:26 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-104.gmavt.net] has 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05:43:08 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 05:45:38 http://pastie.org/1254730 05:50:46 -!- rushfan [~rushfan@c-71-232-0-154.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #scheme 05:51:30 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #scheme 05:58:15 -!- _danb_` [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:58:50 -!- d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:04:12 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #scheme 06:04:59 -!- Axsuul [~someone@97-93-99-133.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:09:33 Axsuul [~someone@97-93-99-133.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:13:56 dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:23:26 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:26:43 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:29:06 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-194-104.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41:23 Hey guys, I was wondering where I could find out about "Schematic" notation used in Lambda Calculus texts, 06:41:24 elderK, memo from ski: please see "Representing Control: A Study of the CPS Transformation" at by Olivier Danvy and Andrzej Filinski in 1992-12 for more info on avoiding generating administrative redices when CPS-transforming 06:41:52 It's something along the lines of This : (D -> D) -> D 06:41:55 for example. 06:41:59 Thanks minion, I'll give it a look :) 06:42:11 Thanks ski, even :) 06:42:21 You're welcome. 06:43:26 *ski* wonders what elderK means by "Schematic" notation 06:43:52 Let -> equal the little arrow-thingy. 06:44:00 (x, y) -> x*x + y*y 06:44:20 You can find an example here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus 06:44:40 oh, you mean `(x,y) |-> x*x + y*y' ? 06:44:44 Or in Barendregt's "Introduction to Lambda Calculus" 06:44:45 Yeah! 06:44:45 :D 06:44:56 he calls it schematic notation, and I have a hard time following. 06:44:56 that is a function expression 06:45:10 Like, he has : 06:45:17 Let M = M[x], and stuff like that 06:45:20 in Scheme, it'd be written as `(lambda (x y) (+ (* x x) (* y y)))' 06:45:32 Apparently, "M = M[x]" represents a function that depends/contains x. 06:45:42 so `|->' is basically an infix `lambda' 06:45:53 And for something like this : 06:46:05 FuncName : (D -> D) -> D 06:46:14 (however, `(D -> D) -> D' is something else) 06:46:32 that is a type signature for `FuncName' 06:46:45 saying that the type of `FuncName' is `(D -> D) -> D' 06:46:45 :) Any advice on where I can learn more about these notations? 06:47:09 I can follow something like E : N -> N 06:47:16 `x : t' could more or less be read as `x' being an element of the set `t' 06:47:16 I figure E takes an N as input, N is as output. 06:47:24 but (D -> D) -> D, I have no real clue. 06:48:00 yeah, usually it is used for functions .. in statically typed functional programming, it is used for all values, not just functions 06:48:07 :) I can understand that, FuncName is in the element of all functions with whatever signature, right? 06:48:28 er, the set, not element 06:48:28 :) 06:48:28 if `D -> D' is the set of functions taking inputs in the set `D' and yielding outputs in the set `D' 06:48:56 then `(D -> D) -> D' is the set of functions taking functions of the previous kind as arguments, and yielding outputs in the set `D' 06:49:17 so `FuncName' is a higher-order function 06:49:45 in math, `FuncName : (D -> D) -> D' would usually be written as `FuncName : D^D -> D', i.e. as 06:50:01 D 06:50:01 FuncName : D -> D 06:50:19 `B^A' being the set of functions from `A' to `B' 06:51:06 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 06:51:10 as a simple example, consider 06:52:00 rudybot: eval (map even? (list 0 1 2 3)) 06:52:00 ski: ; Value: (#t #f #t #f) 06:52:42 in this specific case, one could say `map : (number -> boolean) * (list-of number) -> (list-of boolean)' 06:52:59 elderK : does that help ? 06:53:03 It does, very much :) 06:53:12 and * just means "another parameter" 06:53:20 it means cartesian product 06:53:21 like, E : N*N -> N 06:53:39 but it can be used to simulate multiple parameters, yes 06:54:00 :) Thank you, Ski. 06:54:05 np 06:54:10 The last thing I guess I have to ask for now is, 06:54:24 Any chance you could point me to any other references, from which I could learn? 06:54:42 Learning this Lambda Calculus stuff is kind of hard going - understanding the terms andnotation the texts use, is part of the battle. 06:54:57 Atm, it's like a never-ending dig for information 06:55:25 (and btw, if you want to know more about this, i think the simplest would be to learn a statically typed functional programming language. such as Haskell,OCaml,SML,Mercury,Clean .. possible typed scheme (in Racket) would also do) 06:55:50 I wouldn't mind learning SML :) 06:56:36 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:57:53 well, at least the first four i mentioned have channels here on freenode 06:58:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:59:33 Fantastic :) 07:00:03 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-hzisikakvticzufc] has joined #scheme 07:04:04 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #scheme 07:06:40 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 07:09:16 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:49 (btw, the notation `f : A -> B' comes from category theory, where one can't replace `A -> B' with `B^A' or vice versa, because (somewhat) different things are meant) 07:14:54 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 07:18:48 ski, I'm checking out SML/NJ :) 07:19:02 Category theory, I've now added that to my "READdddddddd" list. 07:19:03 :D 07:19:09 ok 07:19:11 hehehe 07:19:19 Gah, I need a new way to manage my reading pile. 07:19:23 It's like a LIFO stack :P 07:19:40 yeah 07:19:42 So far, I organize all the papers I've downloaded or printed by University then name. 07:19:44 then topic. 07:20:12 At some point, it maybe worthwhile building a simple local database to track this stuff, since using a giant folder tree with symlinks is getting hard to maintain. 07:20:28 (if you have questions on SML, you could join #sml) 07:20:38 *ski* tries to orginize by topic 07:20:44 sometimes by author 07:21:04 I could develop a program to generate the links for me, but it's not really portable (I dance between platforms a lot) 07:21:15 where as I could probably build an application that uses say, sqlite or something. 07:21:28 or to share, setup a basic website :) 07:21:33 which I keep meaning to do. 07:22:56 iirc, there's things like citeulike 07:23:11 aye, but I need a place to rant anywho. 07:23:13 :P 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11:15:09 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-104.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 11:15:31 kuribas [~user@94-226-137-118.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 11:19:36 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.146.105] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:21:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:25:09 (define (f x)(let (( y 10)) (lambda(x)( set! y (* x y)) y))) 11:25:20 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:25:41 getting #{Procedure 8513 (unnamed in f)} when (f 10) 11:26:27 So? 11:26:54 What did you expect? 11:26:55 i want a value of y to be returned 11:27:05 The call the function (f 10) returns. 11:27:09 then 11:27:15 ((f 10)) 11:27:29 ((f 10) 10) 11:27:37 Notice that the argument given to f is not used. 11:28:22 ((f 'youpla!) 5) works as well. 11:29:44 yeah, that works 11:29:57 Maybe you wanted to type (define f (let ((y 10)) (lambda (x) (set! y (* x y)) y))) 11:30:15 In this example, f is bound to the lambda which carries y with it 11:30:17 Or perhaps (define (f initial-value) (let (( y initial-value)) (lambda(x)( set! y (* x y)) y))) 11:30:35 That let would be unneccessary then 11:31:19 Indeed, but when the result is called, it's not the initial-value anymore. The let may still be used for its documenting purposes. 11:31:43 wanted to try a closure 11:32:04 The closure is created by lambda, wherever its free variable come from. 11:37:41 define (f x) was the problem? ITC, how does ((f 'youpla!) 5) work? 11:38:04 (define (f x) ..) is identical to (define f (lambda (x) ...)) 11:38:25 oh, so double lambda? 11:38:30 Yes. 11:38:38 That's why f returned a function. 11:39:00 The function f, when called returned another function. 11:40:54 so we called the returned function after calling f with some junk? 11:41:07 Yes. 11:41:25 That's because the parameter x of f wasn't used. 11:41:29 what happens to 'youpla! ? 11:41:54 Nothing. It's evaluated, returning the symbol youpla! which is bound to the parameter x, and nothing is done with it. 11:42:32 (define (f not-used) (let ((y 10)) (lambda (x) (set! y (* x y)) y))) 11:42:34 it getting to be fun! 11:43:24 Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus#Reduction 11:43:47 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus#Free_and_bound_variables 11:57:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:59:20 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.230.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:01:57 I think the canonical closure example is (define (counter) (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (set! x (+ x 1)) x))) 12:03:52 alvatar [~alvatar@138.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:05:23 chri2008 [~christian@57.217-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 12:07:41 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:10:13 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 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(i.e. when an allocation fails, should I manually run the GC and try again?) 15:17:08 alexand3r [~alexander@polaris.andern.org] has joined #scheme 15:18:50 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:22:04 elly: and without mutation? 15:22:43 what? 15:22:49 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:28:39 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:16 oh, just wondering about a nice closure example that doesn't require mutation. Coming from haskell I think about infinite lists 15:31:52 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:31:56 but without laziness those are a bit silly... 15:35:15 jimmy_sjtu [~jimmy@2001:da8:8000:e192:225:b3ff:fe76:3140] has joined #scheme 15:35:46 DrDuck [~duck@146.229.117.251] has joined #scheme 15:36:36 alexsuraci` [~Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:42:09 jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 15:46:02 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:46:02 jeapostrophe__ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:58:19 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:43 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:04:27 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:06:11 -!- jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Quit: jengle] 16:09:30 -!- jeapostrophe__ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe__] 16:21:09 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@122.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:31:49 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 16:33:07 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:34:37 -!- firecrow8 [~fcrow@69.38.169.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:36:18 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:36:32 turbofail [~user@adsl-69-238-246-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 16:39:40 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@56.Red-88-11-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:25 Genosh [~Genosh@56.Red-88-11-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:44:26 bremner: closures can be used as callbacks. A typical C program would need to pass an extra void * to all callbacks if there's state they want the event loop to pass to their event handlers. With closures that's not necessary as the extra info just hangs off the event handling lambda 16:45:33 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:46:05 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:47:05 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:12 -!- ski [~slj@c-8911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:32 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E27B70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:50:26 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 16:50:40 -!- jensn [~ceres@c-83-233-158-96.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:51:13 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 16:53:45 ski [~slj@c-8911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:55:53 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E240B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 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-!- shadow_walker [~shadow_wa@189.67.222.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:46 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:59:20 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 19:02:43 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-185-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:02:51 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-185-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:04:02 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 19:09:47 mmc [~michal@cs27124149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:12:19 -!- zbigniew is now known as zbignova 19:22:28 jeapostrophe__ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:22:28 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:50 -!- jeapostrophe__ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:00 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:32:07 mickn [~mickn@unaffiliated/mickn] has joined #scheme 19:32:09 -!- msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has left #scheme 19:32:44 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 19:40:51 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.73.141] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:41:14 i was reading a little about parameter objects a la SRFI-39; what are parameter objects useful for, anyway: singletons? 19:41:50 current-input-port and co. seem to be the example cases. 19:42:33 my understanding is that they're intended to give you thread-safe dynamic scopish behavior 19:43:00 They're also extremely useful to configure library behaviour 19:43:15 ... in a thread-safe manner 19:43:29 It avoids having to pass the configuration option to each and every procedure until it is used somewhere deep down a call chain 19:43:35 "...this SRFI does not specify the semantics of parameter objects in the presence of threads." 19:43:45 At least in chicken. 19:43:47 :) 19:44:11 sjamaan: oh, that's an interesting use case. 19:44:29 i notice that the postgresql egg made use of them. 19:44:44 klutometis: I used them for example in uri-common. You can provide the way query arguments should be encoded 19:44:58 And yes, postgres too 19:45:04 spiffy uses a lot of parameters too 19:45:21 Actually a lot of eggs use parameters 19:45:32 In postgres it could provide a static variable which you can set! to a new value, but that would interfere with other users when you're a library that uses postgres 19:45:34 Even chicken itself. 19:46:00 Another library might decide to use different options and overwrite your changes. With parameters you can provide dynamic scoping on them so they're protected from outside intrusion 19:46:37 They're also nice for when you set a value temporarily and want it to be reverted when a dynamic context exits 19:46:44 It saves you the hassle of setting up a dynamic-wind 19:46:45 sjamaan: for example, form-urlencoded-separator? 19:46:51 yes 19:47:21 Also, the API for parameters is functional, while the dynamic-wind equivalent would rely heavily on mutation 19:47:22 sjamaan: damn; that's great, too. 19:47:59 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:50:32 tl;dr: parameters own 19:50:39 (that got into the wrong channel just now) 19:52:04 mario-goulart: now that you mention it, the chicken source is indeed rife with parameters; case-sensitive, parentheses-synonyms, etc. i always wondered how those were implemented. 19:52:53 They are a per-thread array. 19:53:27 The array is copied when the thread is created, or maybe lazily, I forget which. The implication is that parameters cannot be GC'd. 19:55:30 If you create them in a loop, eventually Chicken runs out of memory. 19:55:49 jcowan: you mean that after 100000 threads I'll have 100000 copies of the parameter? 19:55:55 Yes. 19:56:14 However, it may be copied on write (lazily) rather than at thread creation time. I'm not sure. 19:56:38 When the thread is destroyed the parameters go along with it, don't they? 19:56:38 That doesn't sound scalable. 19:56:39 But more to the point, if you create a million garbage parameters in a loop, Chicken will blow up. 19:56:46 sjamaan: Yes 19:56:51 phew 19:57:50 The problem is not so much that it doesn't scale with the number of threads, but that it doesn't scale with the number of parameters. Once a parameter is created, it exists in that thread and all child threads until the thread dies. Parameters created in the primordial thread last as long as the program, *even if they are garbage*. 19:58:14 I see. 19:58:52 We'll have to fix that someday 19:59:16 jeapostrophe__ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:59:17 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:35 It should really be a weak hashtable, but that would be much more expensive to copy. 20:01:01 (let loop () (make-parameter 10) (loop)) <-- crashes chicken 20:06:31 Not here, it seems. At least not in a short time. 20:06:58 It will first consume all your swap, I guess :) 20:06:59 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:07:01 No, it takes a very long time if you have a goodish amount of memory. But eventually it will. 20:07:24 Ah, ok. 20:08:30 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:09:20 According to top, memory consumption seems to be constant here. 20:11:24 chicken 4.6.2. 20:12:25 *mario-goulart* & 20:13:53 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:14:45 shadow_walker [~shadow_wa@187.37.211.118] has joined #scheme 20:15:39 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:16:11 Hmm, maybe it's been fixed already. 20:18:32 schmir [~schmir@p54A9192D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:22:33 -!- jeapostrophe__ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:32:14 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:43:06 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:46:23 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #scheme 20:52:41 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:34 incubot: (let loop () (make-parameter 10) (loop)) 20:56:36 Eval 4611 timed out. 20:57:15 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:57:23 Nice try 20:57:24 :) 20:58:45 pothos_ [~pothos@111-240-210-181.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:03 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-214-9.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:03:46 -!- shadow_walker [~shadow_wa@187.37.211.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:59 Azuvix [~user@174-27-38-209.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:06:20 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A9192D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:10 -!- pumpkin is now known as haskellpumpkin 21:07:27 -!- choas [~lars@p578F680E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:11:08 shadow_walker [~shadow_wa@187.37.211.118] has joined #scheme 21:13:15 -!- haskellpumpkin is now known as copumpkin_ 21:13:18 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 21:13:19 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as pumpkin 21:18:26 *jcowan* consumes pumpkin recursively now that he is data and not codata. 21:18:41 damn 21:18:46 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin_ 21:18:50 hah! now you may only observe me 21:19:07 there is that certain annoying underscore at the end of my name 21:19:22 That just shows that you are an external symbol in Fortran. 21:19:59 codata in fortran, eh :O 21:20:54 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:33 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 21:26:53 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:53 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e065bfd.bb.sky.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:53 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:53 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176194064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:53 -!- snap [adf@rrcs-97-77-52-170.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:53 -!- wgd [~will@76-205-0-91.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:53 -!- tizoc [~user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:54 -!- clog [nef@bespin.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:54 -!- franki^ [~frankie@unaffiliated/franki] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:54 -!- incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:54 -!- inimino [~inimino@boshi.inimino.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:26:54 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:27:08 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:27:15 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e065bfd.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 timj_ [~timj@e176194064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 snap [adf@rrcs-97-77-52-170.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 wgd [~will@76-205-0-91.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 tizoc [~user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 franki^ [~frankie@unaffiliated/franki] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 inimino [~inimino@boshi.inimino.org] has joined #scheme 21:27:34 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #scheme 21:45:31 -!- mikeX [~mike@adsl-93.109.242.19.tellas.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:45:50 mikeX [~mike@adsl-93.109.242.19.tellas.gr] has joined #scheme 21:46:21 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27124149.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:27 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@56.Red-88-11-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 21:48:54 mmc [~michal@cs27124149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:53:35 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e065bfd.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 21:57:28 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:31 jeapostrophe__ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:59:07 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p57BD6B28.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:02:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:02:11 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 22:04:54 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 22:07:59 Genosh [~Genosh@83.57.60.194] has joined #scheme 22:08:25 -!- jeapostrophe__ [~jay@fort-0-240.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe__] 22:22:13 -!- firecrow8 [~fcrow@69.38.169.34] has left #scheme 22:22:53 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:07 kilimanja [~kilimanja@ip24-255-34-109.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:26:30 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:26:57 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:26 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:32:45 rotty: run the third party's gc or chibi's? both should run automatically. 22:34:21 foof, what happens if I call open(2) and it returns ENFILE or EMFILE? I doubt whether many garbage collectors will take it upon themselves to intercept the system call and trigger a collection in that situation. 22:35:51 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:36:10 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 22:40:42 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:44:49 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:51:32 -!- mikeX [~mike@adsl-93.109.242.19.tellas.gr] has left #scheme 22:54:35 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:56:06 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:58:15 saccade__ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:58:58 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:59:00 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:59:56 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-234.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:00:43 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:21 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-80.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:53 -!- saccade__ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:06:58 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as pumpkin 23:08:25 Riastradh: It's on my TODO list for all chibi calls to open(2) to run GC on E[NM]FILE. 23:08:37 I don't like the idea of intercepting system calls. 23:10:15 -!- pumpkin is now known as c0w 23:10:33 -!- c0w is now known as RoaryLion 23:18:17 intercepting the user's system calls seems like a bad idea 23:28:05 cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:30:07 Yes, that's why I said I doubt whether many garbage collectors will do that... 23:31:13 -!- cpressey is now known as cpressey|away 23:43:33 -!- Azuvix [~user@174-27-38-209.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:48 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 23:47:17 MonononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:47:34 -!- MonononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:50:58 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:52:35 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:54:02 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme