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03:47:24 *offby1* looks left, and then looks right 03:47:44 I imagine at least someone here has. 03:47:44 *franki^* looks up, and then looks down 03:48:11 Certainly there are several here who have worked through its predecessors, and I have occasionally seen discussion of Kanren here. 03:48:19 Do you have a question about it? 03:48:32 *franki^* is only a little Schemer, well, and a tad seasoned 03:48:34 *offby1* looks inside the soul of the boy sitting next to him 03:48:55 just trying to figure out 3.10-3.14, wondering whether you're actually supposed to understand by that point how listo continues to generate values when the fresh var is at the end of the list. 03:49:27 'Fraid I don't know about that... I haven't read it myself. 03:49:31 (and I don't have a copy handy) 03:51:02 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:53:34 Nisstyre65 [~wes@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 04:00:20 snax [~chatzilla@76-236-35-147.lightspeed.frsnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:09:20 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:10:41 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:15:59 jengle [~jengle@69.0.52.56] has joined #scheme 04:19:31 hi all 04:19:45 Hi. 04:20:49 Riastradh: do you use drscheme by any chance? 04:20:54 Nope. 04:21:02 rats. 04:21:24 But I do know that DrScheme is ancient history now, and that everyone should be using DrRacket instead. 04:22:44 i use the drscheme that's packaged with drracket 04:22:48 If you have a question about it, though, just ask. 04:23:02 Someone who does use it might be listening and able to answer your question. 04:23:22 I need a function that computes log in any base 04:23:32 the one provided is natural log, afaik 04:23:43 What do you mean `log in any base'? There is only one logarithm, and it is the natural one! 04:24:40 To be more precise: What is your definition of `logarithm in base b', for some nonnegative real b? 04:25:46 oh come on, you know what he means. 04:25:48 -!- snax [~chatzilla@76-236-35-147.lightspeed.frsnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012113537]] 04:30:49 jengle: (define (log-in-base n b) (/ (log n) (log b))) 04:32:20 hmm, where have I seen that before 04:33:59 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #scheme 04:34:04 Heck: (define (log-maker b) (let ((invlb (/ (log b)))) (lambda (n) (* invlb (log n))))) 04:34:13 Then you don't even have to compute (log b) each time! :-P 04:34:24 scheme is so cool 04:34:30 Well, that's the usual definition, but it's not obvious why that is the definition if one doesn't have a clear notion of what a logarithm is; or, if one has a clear notion of what logarithms and exponentials are, that definition is obvious. Unfortunately, the logarithm is usually introduced as `the power to which you have to raise some base to get some number,' which is missing some juicy parts of the story. 04:35:24 "branch cuts" if I recall correctly. 04:35:26 jengle: If you use my log-maker function, then you can have: (define log2 (log-maker 2)) 04:35:40 cky: yeah, but that lacks all the lumberjack imagry. 04:35:55 offby1: Sorry. Ask Duane Bibby to help with that. 04:36:13 :-) 04:36:16 i'm not particularly gifted in math, though i've taken it upon myself to do all the exercises in a pre-calc book that i have. 04:36:22 Oh, branch cuts are complex. 04:36:33 .oO("imagery")? 04:36:36 Not part of the real story. 04:36:40 *Riastradh* ducks. 04:36:48 (Sorry, had to throw the name in because of the mentions of the Little Schemer series---Duane was the illustrator, as well as for TeXbook, Metafontbook, etc.) 04:37:00 cky: well, duh. 04:37:15 offby1: Just for other lurkers in the channel, y'know. 04:37:33 i took a peek at "the art of computer programming" and realized that my math skills were pretty weak. 04:37:52 cky: f*** 'em 04:39:54 offby1: :-) 04:39:59 jengle, that's OK -- I don't know what `gifted in math' really means, anyway, but if you're programming in Scheme, chances are you are more than capable of understanding some basic math such as what logarithms are and where they come from. 04:40:40 alright I made sense of the Reasoned Schemer 3.10-3.14. I should resort to pencil and paper more often :P 04:41:35 jengle, are you interested in a story (partially made up on the spot), or do you just want to get on with your programming? 04:41:56 does the story have a prince? 04:42:16 *franki^* likes stories 04:42:39 Riastradh: interested 04:42:44 I...I could make it have a prince, by starting with a horrible pun. 04:43:38 Well, once upon a time, there was this prince who decided he wanted to get into reptilian zoology, so he got some snakes and wanted to breed them. 04:43:59 zorgz [zorgz@112.135.135.130] has joined #scheme 04:44:11 Unfortunately, try as he might, no little snakelings appeared in the terrarium he set up. 04:44:12 hello 04:44:32 So he asked one of his advisors to find a veterinarian to take a look at the situation. 04:45:04 The advisor went out, and came back with a vet, who took one look at the scene, and said `Ah! I see what the problem is.' 04:45:07 zorgz: shush, we're learning how to breed snakes 04:45:13 *offby1* cringes 04:45:18 here it comes 04:46:00 The vet recommended that the prince set up some kind of furniture for the snakes by taking a log, cutting it in half, and setting the halves down with a flat top for the snakes to sit on. 04:46:30 The prince was skeptical, but he tried it, and, sure enough, pretty soon the place was full of snake eggs with snakelings waiting to come out, to the amazed bafflement of the prince. 04:46:41 So he went back to the vet, and asked what happened. 04:47:18 The vet said, `Well, you see, I saw that your snakes were adders. And everyone knows that in order to get adders to multiply, you need log tables.' 04:48:00 :) 04:48:46 Now, if you don't get the pun, don't feel bad -- that's what the rest of the story is about. (I guess I'm about to explain a bad joke, making it even worse...) 04:48:59 jengle, ever used a slide rule? 04:49:15 Riastradh: no, what is that? 04:49:20 My grandfather told me about log tables, and slide rules actually :P 04:49:47 Riastradh: did you really think that up now, in real time? That would warrant some forgiveness. 04:49:58 *Axioplase_* owns a slide rule 04:49:58 jengle, it's the kind of pocket calculator franki^'s grandfather used to cheat on physics exams when he was a wee undergrad. 04:50:22 Maxel [~Maxel@99.149.174.241] has joined #scheme 04:50:46 It's purely mechanical -- in fact, `mechanical' is a little too strong a word, even. You should go out and try to find one -- they're fun. 04:51:14 offby1, I made up the embellishments about princes and advisors, but not the punchline. 04:52:08 The basic idea of a slide rule is that you can do multiplication just by doing addition. For example, if you know how to add 3 and 5, then you can use a slide rule to multiply them, too, even if you don't know how to multiply (or you are too lazy to do so). 04:52:19 it's often easy to "back-form" a pun, given the punch line 04:54:24 (Can some volunteer step forward and find an image of a slide rule on the interwebs while I talk?) 04:55:06 jengle, you're no doubt familiar with the basic idea of exponentiation, at least when the exponent is a natural number, right? 04:55:10 http://images.google.com/images?hl=hl&source=source&q=%22slide+rule 04:55:11 is HTDP a good starting text? 04:55:45 zorgz: Yes 04:56:22 (Disclaimer: I haven't read it, but I've seen it discussed in here often enough to know the consensus) 04:56:41 im just kind of confused in data definition 04:56:45 That is, a^n = a * a * ... * a, n times -- the n-fold product of a with itself. 04:57:10 for e.g. (define phonebook (make-entry 'PeterLee 15270 '606-7771)) 04:57:31 and the structure is (define-struct entry (name zip phone)) 04:57:46 would Phonebook only refer to Peterlee 04:57:55 or can it be used to refer to more than 1 04:58:16 zorgz: ...what's a make-entry? 04:58:28 Oh, I see. 04:58:34 (I missed seeing your next line.) 04:58:34 Riastradh: yes. 04:58:40 np :) 04:58:42 For any particular a, the function f : n |---> a^n (or, in Scheme terms, the procedure F defined by (define (f n) (expt a n))) has an interesting property: it turns sums into products. That is, say a = 2, and we consider f(3 + 4) = 2^(3 + 4) = 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 = (2 * 2 * 2) * (2 * 2 * 2 * 2) = (2^3) * (2^4) = f(3) * f(4). 04:59:39 (Please stop me if you're confused by any of the notation -- in math land, the way you write (lambda (x) ...) is `x |---> ...'.) 05:00:50 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:21 any help on my q? 05:02:14 zorgz: Well, in your case, "phonebook" is just a single entry. Is that what you're asking? 05:04:06 This property doesn't immediately help us to compute 3 * 4 if we know how to compute 3 + 4, but it's a start on the way there. 05:05:13 That reminds me of one of those Google Code Jam problems that is better solved using logs and addition, rather than the straight numbers and multiplication. 05:06:25 In fact, it's kind of backwards: it helps us to compute some horrible function of 3 + 4 (that is, 2^(3 + 4)), if we know how to compute that horrible function of 3, and multiply the result with that horrible function of 4. 05:08:09 But that horrible function actually has some other nice properties. For example, it is injective, or one-to-one: that is, it never gives you the same result for different inputs. That means, for each result you get out of it, there's only one input that could possibly have gone into it. For instance, if a = 2, and f(n) = 16, then the only possible value of n is 4. 05:09:42 So f has an inverse function, that gives us n if we know f(n). Or, in Scheme terms, there's some procedure G that gives us back the argument we gave to F: (g (f n)) gives back n. Let's call this inverse function f^-1. 05:11:17 Before, I pointed out that we can compute f(3 + 4) if we know how to compute f(3) and f(4), and we know how to multiply numbers. Using f^-1, we can go a step further, and find how to compute 3 + 4, if we know how to compute f, f^-1, and products: 3 + 4 = f^-1(f(3 + 4)) = f^-1(f(3) * f(4)). 05:11:42 But this looks like it's getting farther and farther from our goal of computing 3 * 4 if we know how to compute 3 + 4. 05:12:13 Furthermore, there's a snag: so far, we can do this only with natural numbers. 05:12:39 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 05:13:10 That is, I've told you a roundabout way to compute 3 + 4, but not how to compute 3 + 4.5, because we have no idea what 2^(3 + 4.5) means; the definition of exponentiation makes sense only if the exponent is a natural number, which 7.5 is not. 05:13:18 I thought our goal was proving that (define (log-base-b n b) (/ (log n) (log b))) was obvious? :) 05:13:45 franki^: Shush. I was looking forward to hearing Riastradh talk about log branch cuts, etc. 05:13:56 :-P 05:14:04 (I'm not going to mention branch cuts -- complex analysis is for another day.) 05:14:15 :-) 05:14:35 cky: Oh, sorry, I didn't want to spoil the story, I'm just waiting to hear the ending. (I've got work in the morning :<) 05:14:58 franki^: To paraphrase offby1: f*** 'em. :-P 05:15:10 Anyway, all this is basically backwards: addition is easy, and multiplication is hard, but all I've told you about is how to compute addition if you can already compute multiplication. 05:15:24 So instead of studying f, let's stand on our heads and study t! 05:15:32 ...er, rather, let's study f^-1. 05:15:50 What properties does this function have? 05:16:46 Well, first of all, it's not defined on many inputs. Basically, it looks like this in Scheme: (define (f^-1 x) (case x ((1) 0) ((2) 1) ((4) 2) ((8) 3) ... (else (error "I don't know!")))) 05:17:15 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #scheme 05:18:14 Riastradh: I am really interested in everything you're saying but it is 1:17am and I could not be more tired. I'll be sure to pick your brain another day. G'nite everyone. 05:18:20 OK. 05:18:38 -!- jengle [~jengle@69.0.52.56] has quit [Quit: jengle] 05:18:40 -!- pumpkin [~copumpkin@user-142hbak.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:56 Does that mean we all have to go to bed? 05:18:59 I hope he at least goes out and finds a slide rule. 05:19:09 it's 10:48 AM here and I'm interested :D 05:19:11 :) 05:19:37 Riastradh: slide rules are fantastic; i brought one to calculus for anachronism's sake. they did not let me use it on the final. 05:20:12 -!- Guest80303 is now known as klutometis 05:22:51 Well, the punchlines, for anyone who wants to go to bed, are that the way to generalize f^-1 to work on arbitrary real numbers is to remember the properties common to the family of functions with different a's, and then define (log x) = (integrate 0 x (lambda (t) (/ 1 t))), which shares these properties. Then find that defining (expt a x) to be (log (* x (exp a))) coincides with natural number exponentiation, and an inverse follows for free from 05:23:40 Oops. That anacoluthon was unintentional. Sorry. 05:28:05 Your penultimate line was chopped off at "free from". :-( 05:28:17 your margin was too narrow : "... and an inverse follows for free from" 05:28:23 And what a slide rule does is just to match up x (or, log t) with exp x (or, t) on two, well, rulers that slide relative to one another, so that you can do addition on one and get multiplication on the other. 05:28:34 Oops. `...and an inverse follows for free from that definition.' 05:30:49 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:34:45 klutometis, that is a pity, but it's unfortunate to begin with that anything on a calculus exam would require numerical computation. 05:35:10 just a small question again on scheme this posn structures have really got me confused 05:35:39 draw-circle (make-posn 110 30) 30 'yellow) ;; which draws a yellow circle of radius 30 centered at the upper right corner of the rectangle; 05:36:43 how can you define draw-a-circle to consume a circle structure and draw it on the canvas 05:38:28 (define (draw-a-circle circle) (draw-circle (circle-position circle) (circle-radius circle) (circle-colour circle)) 05:38:48 Hmm... 05:39:19 cky, I have a problem in my math problem set which is really confusing me...can you solve it for me? 05:39:53 cky thats what I tried but how do you define the struct circle the posn part 05:40:02 Riastradh: Hahaha. Point taken. 05:40:08 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 05:40:19 (define-struct circle (x y r colour)) << that won't be right 05:40:22 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 05:41:55 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:02 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:03 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:42:16 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:42:38 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:45:04 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 05:50:18 cky? 05:51:03 zorgz, why won't it be right? 05:54:12 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- Lemonator [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:39 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-68-173-254-181.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:56:58 dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:58:47 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 05:59:06 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:00:54 tessier: Hey, good seeing you here! :-) 06:01:08 Oh, wait. That was just a net-unsplit. 06:03:00 -!- ski [~slj@c-8911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:04:52 -!- zorgz [zorgz@112.135.135.130] has quit [] 06:12:30 Lemonator [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:14:25 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 06:20:17 ski [~slj@c-8911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 06:21:13 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 06:24:15 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:24:36 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:24:59 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:35:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 06:36:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:50:21 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 06:51:29 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 06:59:26 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:40 cky: Hi! 07:21:58 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:24:27 :-) I hope I didn't wake you up or anything...granted, it may not be unusual for you to stay up till midnight. :-) 07:24:36 Where I'm at, it's nearly 3.30, so. 07:35:16 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #scheme 07:38:33 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:44:03 z0d [~z0d@62.112.193.85] has joined #scheme 07:44:12 -!- z0d [~z0d@62.112.193.85] has quit [Changing host] 07:44:12 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 07:51:57 Maxels [~Maxel@99.149.174.241] has joined #scheme 07:56:11 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@99.149.174.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:57:35 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 08:07:24 zoskia 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15:32:05 s the point? 15:32:10 Aren't you happy here? 15:32:10 copumpkin [~copumpkin@user-142hbak.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 15:34:40 new irc servers are pretty hard to get established 15:34:42 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:41 pumpkin: trust me I know. It is hard to advertise irc://wakko.irc.yourlifegroup.org/lisp 15:35:54 what's the point then? 15:36:00 I advertised in #lisp and was told to leave. 15:36:09 pumpkin: it is cool to have your own server. 15:36:11 the main reason I've seen people starting new channels and servers is that they want op privileges 15:36:20 Wakko10Warner: that's your motivation, but what's ours? 15:37:02 *cky* is happy here. This channel has awesome people in it and awesome people running it. 15:37:07 I started it because I had 1,000 scheme robots that I wanted to remotely control for a school project in distributed computing, and freenode would not let me do it on freenode. 15:37:22 Wakko10Warner: ...botnet? 15:37:23 yes, but you still haven't told us why we should care :P 15:37:36 so I set up a chat channel so people using scheme and lisp could talk. 15:37:56 pumpkin: don't you want to create a distributed computing environment using scheme. 15:38:21 if I were testing a botnet, I'd use my own IRC server, but that doesn't mean I'd move all my IRC activity to it 15:38:21 cky: nope. it is a bunch of scheme bots ... it is used for AI/AL research and not crime so it is not a botnet. 15:39:13 pumpkin: It is for people that want to test the scheme bots, and for researchers that want to do massively parallel processing ala boinc using them. 15:40:02 you can't do criminal things with Scheme, it is too cool of a language for crime. 15:40:27 I'm not saying it's criminal, I just don't think it's a very common need. The few distributed computing things I've done, I wouldn't layer on top of IRC 15:40:54 cky: that is why I moved it to my own server. Freenode staff didn't understand what I was trying to do. 15:41:43 pumpkin: it is open parallelism so anybody can download a client, and start to use it. they just need to share part of the processing with other users of the system. 15:42:04 that way people can use a beowulf type system, without needing to buy the hardware. 15:42:15 http://philosecurity.org/2009/01/12/interview-with-an-adware-author <-- sure you can 15:43:08 sloyd: that is cool. where can I download the source code for it. 15:44:05 S: In your professional opinion, how can people avoid adware? 15:44:06 M: Um, run UNIX. 15:44:12 that is so true. 15:52:58 -!- Wakko10Warner [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/wakko9warner] has left #scheme 15:58:13 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:59:25 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-194-104.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:04:02 -!- stamourv [~user@kauai.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:04:47 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:00 strange dude :) 16:19:23 stamourv [~user@kauai.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:24:18 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:26:15 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:32:00 mickn [~mickn@unaffiliated/mickn] has joined #scheme 16:39:41 -!- iostres [~iostres@213.147.117.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:46:14 -!- pumpkin [~copumpkin@user-142hbak.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:13 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 17:01:12 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 17:07:14 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 17:11:25 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:16:37 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:22:25 zanes [~zane@wall.tripitinc.com] has joined #scheme 17:22:25 -!- zanes [~zane@wall.tripitinc.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:31:15 githogori [~githogori@107.sub-75-208-77.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 17:34:44 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:34:48 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:37:01 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:37:28 -!- mickn [~mickn@unaffiliated/mickn] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:38:00 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 17:43:27 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:54:02 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.79] has joined #scheme 17:56:47 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-208.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:05:37 pumpkin [~copumpkin@131.247.67.79] has joined #scheme 18:07:22 Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:07:22 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:07:22 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 18:25:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:38 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 18:35:02 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:35:54 schmir [~schmir@p54A917E0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:37:33 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:41:20 IznastY [~Snake@cpe-67-247-46-146.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:42:13 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 18:56:02 running UNIX is a pretty good way to avoid software altogether these days 18:57:26 Hasn't it always been that way? 18:58:12 sjamaan: well, I guess I was distinguishing between Unix, and Unix-like systems, where at least your scheme compiler will run :) 18:58:29 You're running V7 or something? 18:58:39 xenix? 18:58:44 XD 19:04:21 femtooo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 19:07:15 -!- IznastY [~Snake@cpe-67-247-46-146.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 19:07:19 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:15:01 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:22:26 -!- tizoc [~user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:22:48 tizoc` [~user@li25-112.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 19:22:48 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.79] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:51 vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.79] has joined #scheme 19:22:58 -!- vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:50 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 19:35:56 -!- rotty_ is now known as rotty 19:37:00 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:56 -!- tizoc` is now known as tizoc 19:40:06 -!- tizoc [~user@li25-112.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:40:06 tizoc [~user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 19:43:47 -!- wgd [~will@76-205-0-91.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:44:56 wgd [~will@76-205-0-91.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:52:15 bremner, that depends on your definition of Unix. The legal definition of Unix, by which I mean the trademark, includes, for example, Mac OS X, on which plenty of Scheme systems run. 19:56:28 jao [~user@81.39.213.106] has joined #scheme 19:58:00 aDuck [~aduck@bl14-141-108.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 19:58:04 Riastradh: btw, I just wanted to say thanks for linking me to the CPS conversion source. 19:58:14 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:58:14 I spent most of yesterday studying it - and it helped me understand a lot more. 19:58:20 The Orbit paper has a nice explanation, too. 19:58:26 Paper worked wonders, as well. 19:59:27 -!- femtooo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:59:36 The Orbit paper's presentation is much more useful for explaining what CPS is. The code I gave you is just a more efficient implementation of the concept, in the sense that it immediately performs simplifications that are usually done later, often in an ad-hoc and incomplete manner. 20:00:17 I was wondering what simplications you were referring to - are they things like alpha/beta/eta conversion? 20:00:24 and removing "administrative" lambda? 20:00:41 er, a/b/e reduction. 20:01:09 hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5B4AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:01:23 The oribt paper really did push the "it simplifies compilation" idea, too. 20:01:48 I also liked that you could follow their scheme code in your head, on paper - so you could test the idea, to make sure you understood how it worked. 20:02:10 Example: (f 3 (g x)) could map to ((lambda (k) (k f)) (lambda (operator) ((lambda (k) (k 3)) (lambda (operand0) ((lambda (k) (k g)) (lambda (operator*) ((lambda (k) (k x)) (lambda (operand*) (operator* operand* (lambda (operand1) (operator operand0 operand1] 20:02:23 ...er, with an extra continuation at the very end passed to OPERATOR. 20:02:30 Or, it could map to: (g x (lambda (t) (f 3 t c))). 20:03:28 Aye. 20:03:47 I was wondering why many CPS things I've seen so far, always pass the parameters one by one - rather than condense them when possible. 20:03:52 The former is what the naive conversion in the Orbit paper will give; the latter is what my code will give. 20:04:13 :) Nice, Riastradh. 20:04:47 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-126.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:49 grettke [~grettke@cpe-65-30-30-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:04:55 Other than experimentation and notepad scribbling, do you have any advice on how I could learn more about these reductions you are performing? 20:05:07 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-126.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:05:22 Are they of your own devious construction or, would I be able to read up on some materials to understand, too? 20:05:30 any of you guys played with F#? 20:06:20 :) Bought Appel's "Compiling with Continuations" the other day. Expensive book - but I'm excited at the prospect of what it could elucidate. 20:06:33 And sorry, grettke - nothing more than defining some basic functions. 20:06:57 The basic idea is to have two representations of each continuation in the conversion process. One of the representations is a (perhaps delayed) syntactic term for the continuation that you use if you need the continuation to appear in the resulting program; the other representation is a unary procedure that takes an immediate operand, such as 3 or x, and yields an expression that the continuation would compute. 20:07:36 elderK: seems like there's a lot of overlap between F# and OCaml 20:07:38 So, instead of `((lambda (k) (k 3)) ,object-continuation), you do ((lambda (k) (k 3)) meta-continuation). 20:10:41 And instead of (cps-convert term `(lambda (t) (... t ...))), you do (cps-convert term `(lambda (t) (... t ...)) (lambda (t) `(... ,t ...))). 20:11:50 grettke: Some people on #stackoverflow are big F# fans, but, I don't know if they're around at the moment. But you're welcome to lurk and/or yabber about F# and see if anybody notices. 20:12:20 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176193102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:12:41 grettke: F# is Microsoft Active Direct OcamlX# 3.0 20:12:53 O_o 20:12:54 oh, .NET 20:13:09 You forgot `Visual'! 20:13:11 :) thanks Riastradh. 20:13:17 man, I did 20:13:23 Riastradh++ 20:13:48 I guess 2011 would be more microsoftish than 3.0, too 20:13:53 Well, I'm off to repair some old persons busted XP install. *Sigh* 20:14:01 *pumpkin* revises to "F# is Microsoft Visual Active Direct OcamlX# 2011" 20:14:01 but before I bolt, YO CKY! 20:14:02 :) 20:14:08 Heya! Good luck! 20:14:22 ^_^ should be no biggy. Probably just malware. 20:14:35 I wish people on XP or whatever would learn not to run as Administrator always... 20:14:47 it's painful not to 20:14:52 What pumpkin said. 20:14:56 It can be. 20:15:02 Without UAC, switching between users is a serious pain. 20:15:06 it's not designed to not be used as administrator, and many programs assume you are 20:15:07 Aye, that's true. 20:15:13 it's sad 20:15:41 *elderK* grabs toolkit of doom. 20:15:45 Onwards comrades! 20:15:47 elderK: I tried that, at home... it was a nightmare... though I had things worked out great but things broke subtly 20:16:10 Whenever I run XP, I run that way - I guess I just use less stuff than you guys. 20:16:23 like, software wise. 20:16:44 I only tend to use Vim and IRC, and a compiler. 20:16:48 It's nontrivial to persuade a Unix system, too, to install software without administrative privileges. 20:17:01 Aye, exactly. 20:17:10 this is why I use Mac OS! 20:17:13 ;) 20:17:16 O_o 20:17:17 Um, right. 20:17:19 *Riastradh* hiccups. 20:17:27 :P 20:17:32 yeah, none of them are ideal 20:17:39 elderK: User switching is broken, first of all. Second, most apps require you to be admin... though the author of those apps is not ware of it! 20:18:08 Aye, grettke. I'm not saying Windows is awesome for non-admin use - it just seems that I've acclimated to it's annoyingness. 20:18:09 :) 20:18:20 perhaps because I use XP so little, that it never truly gets to bug me. 20:18:36 I just use it for one program 20:18:38 and in a VM 20:19:00 And, although I know of systems that allow (with some effort) installing software at least without giving the software's installation programs administrative privileges, I don't know any system that reasonably grants different privileges to different applications, rather than to different users. 20:19:04 I use it to test cross-platform code and play a game once in a blue moon with my sister. 20:19:13 Or, in addition to different users. 20:19:47 Alrighy! ttfn 20:19:55 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:49 syntax-rules question: (define-syntax define-qux (syntax-rules () (define qux 42))) 20:28:08 What's the question? 20:28:14 (I expect it has to do with Chicken.) 20:28:16 ^^ that will not define qux visibly, right 20:28:25 It will define `qux' visibly in Chicken. 20:28:42 incubot: (define-syntax define-qux (syntax-rules () (define qux 42))) 20:28:42 Error: (define-syntax) during expansion of (define-syntax ...) - highlevel macros are not supported 20:28:47 Blech. 20:28:58 I'm asking about the "correct" behavior 20:29:04 Correct per what? 20:29:10 wingo [~wingo@83.34.178.93] has joined #scheme 20:29:15 The R5RS is... not entirely clear about this. 20:29:30 Per R6RS, `qux' is an introduced name. 20:30:45 To see why this is unclear in the R5RS, consider (begin (define qux (if #f #f)) (define-qux)) . 20:31:08 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 20:31:08 What does this mean? Should it have the same effect as (set! qux 42) ? 20:31:18 Does it matter where `define-qux' is defined? 20:32:29 Felix has taken this ambiguity to mean that `qux' can be treated as if it is already defined, even if an attempt to evaluate `qux' would result in an error about `qux' being unbound. 20:33:06 I think this is wrong, but it's certainly an example of language lawyering as creative as the ordinary kind can be. 20:33:10 Error: during expansion of (syntax-rules ...) - ill-formed syntax rule: (define qux 42) 20:33:10 The *sensible* behaviour is that any definition of a name not in the macro's input should be visible only to the macro. 20:33:49 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e065b44.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 20:34:09 Riastradh: agreed. 20:34:26 yes, that's what I thought should be the behavior -- but if the identifier is not in a definition context, then it should obviously refer to the lexical context of the macro definition 20:34:44 Here is an example where this is important: . This macro should not define %CONSTRUCTOR or OBJECT.MUTEX visibly to anyone but the macro. 20:34:47 C-Keen: He meant (define-syntax define-qux (syntax-rules () ((_) (define qux 42)))) 20:35:09 (Otherwise, it would not be possible to use this macro more than once in a module!) 20:35:51 Unfortunately, as you can see from browsing the rest of that directory, there are some Scheme systems that fail to do the right thing, or failed to do the right thing at the time I wrote that code. 20:36:00 I have since fixed MIT Scheme, but I think Gambit is still broken. 20:36:26 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: klovett] 20:36:41 chandler Riastradh all true, thanks for the heads up! 20:37:47 rotty: This gets even more complicated when you consider macros expanding to internal definitions. This isn't a part of the R5RS, but many systems allow it. (The R6RS is, again, somewhat more sensible when it comes to this.) 20:37:57 (Emphasis on "somewhat". 20:37:58 ) 20:38:35 so what this implies is having a separate macro expander namespace per module right? 20:39:11 peddie [~peddie@c-67-160-245-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:39:11 -!- peddie [~peddie@c-67-160-245-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:38 The most semantically sensible macro system I know of is riaxpander . (The implementation leaves a lot to be desired; e.g., the environment data structure is pretty poor.) 20:40:16 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:40:22 C-Keen: I don't know how to make sense of that question, sorry. 20:40:32 What is a "macro expander namespace"? 20:40:59 chandler: namespace macro_expander { template ... }, of course. 20:41:07 Ow. 20:41:27 I think I'll go wash my brain out now. 20:42:31 chandler: s,namespace,environment, does this make more sense to you now? 20:44:40 I'm not sure it does. You really only need one environment structure for a Scheme macro expander, provided that identifiers bound within the environment that are no longer referenceable are garbage collected. 20:44:41 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:45:06 After all, each identifier can have at most one binding. 20:45:10 true 20:47:41 ah, so to make sure the definitons of the macro can't be reused elsewhere but the macro you would rename it and put it into the expander environment? 20:48:11 so what happens with chicken scheme now is that the define gets placed into the wrong env? 20:49:42 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: klovett] 20:49:47 Chicken does what it does because it does not treat a top level `define' as a binding operation. 20:55:43 chandler: what would that require? Don't do most schemes some kind of set! for that? 20:55:59 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:59:38 -!- chturne [~chturne@nas45-44.york.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:59:45 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:08:52 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:07 Quadrescence [~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:14:11 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:14:12 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 21:19:40 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:22:15 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:25:17 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:37:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:24 saccade [~saccade@207.228.237.150] has joined #scheme 21:46:40 klutometis: true; although numerical computation came in handy once and a while for e.g. Newton-Raphson approximation of roots. 21:47:33 ... 21:48:23 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-57-38.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 21:48:50 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-104-253.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:57:26 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 22:01:01 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:18 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:04:42 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A917E0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:28 wingo: yes, there was an email-like delay during that exchange. 22:12:11 between yourself and yourself? :) 22:12:51 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has left #scheme 22:15:04 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:31 d-c [~DC@118.229.96.40] has joined #scheme 22:19:49 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 22:24:29 wingo: oh, shit; thanks. 22:24:35 Riastradh: vide supra. 22:29:18 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:35:56 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39:43 mickn [~mickn@unaffiliated/mickn] has joined #scheme 22:46:38 timj [~timj@e176193102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:46:45 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:46 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:26 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:55:36 -!- sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:13 klutometis, it would have been one character conciser to say `see above', you know. 22:56:29 But I don't know what you were replying to... 22:57:14 -!- wingo [~wingo@83.34.178.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:58:52 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:11 Azuvix [~user@174-19-232-21.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 23:04:19 sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has joined #scheme 23:04:38 Genosh [~Genosh@193.153.54.47] has joined #scheme 23:05:42 Riastradh: "klutometis, that is a pity, but it's unfortunate to begin with that anything on a calculus exam would require numerical computation." 23:10:53 -!- githogori [~githogori@107.sub-75-208-77.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:42 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e065b44.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 23:13:02 But why would you be actually computing the roots on an exam? 23:14:06 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:39 Riastradh: unfortunately; it was one of the rare instances of demonstration of mechanical mastery, though. 23:20:38 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-32-82-254-21-5.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:23:52 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5B4AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:33:11 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-25-82-254-156-70.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 23:34:15 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 23:35:55 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 23:38:39 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:40:19 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:48:49 hi 23:55:39 jengle [~jengle@69.0.52.56] has joined #scheme 23:55:46 hi all 23:57:02 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]