00:01:31 jonrafkind: I'm not sure you're showing evidence of knowing how to implement collectors at all. Did you even read Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs? 00:02:15 http://www.cs.utah.edu/~rafkind/papers/ismm09.pdf 00:02:30 i never completed SICP, ive looked through it at various points in life 00:03:30 i didnt realize SICP dealt with C implementations of garbage collectors 00:03:44 Oh, GC in C is simple enough, which that paper seems to address, but I'm not sure it reflects the knowledge of collectors in Scheme. 00:04:49 ive never written a collector in scheme, sorry 00:05:34 although I don't see why it would be any different from C, it seems like it should be much simpler 00:06:48 Is there anyone here who is actually familiar with this stuff? 00:07:25 Quadrescence: In 2 years' time, I hope to be. :-P 00:07:29 me, but i have no time to help noobs 00:07:40 LukeL: Feel the burn! 00:07:46 cky: Ah, you're getting a degree? 00:07:58 Quadrescence: No, but it's my dream to implement an OS entirely in Scheme. 00:08:07 Quadrescence: That includes the memory management and the JIT compiler. 00:08:19 I see. 00:10:18 Basically I want to explore the idea that managed programs are first-class and unmanaged code is second-class (and to be sandboxed away). 00:11:04 In other words, making scheme the native machine language. Every kid's wet dream 00:11:10 Yep. :-P 00:12:26 Really, part of it is answering Knuth's call for people to write a book on an OS for MMIX. But, this is an untraditional take on OSs, so, we'll see how things go. :-P 00:13:25 The reason I want to target MMIX is: 1. its instruction set is simple and clean, and 2. I don't want to design something that has too much x86 cruft baked in (I'm most familiar with x86 assembly, so some biases could creep in if I'm not careful). 00:13:56 cky, http://lists.tunes.org/archives/lispos/1998-December/002514.html -- like this? scroll down to matthew flatt's message 00:15:46 Quad: doesn't allocating on a per-atom basis sort of defeat the point of generational collecting? 00:16:22 jonrafkind: Sounds interesting. :-) It might be a useful basis for what I'm trying to do, but I haven't looked at it closely enough to know. 00:16:35 Well, not if you then take those out of arrays. 00:16:53 Jafet: no 00:18:12 jonrafkind: It looks like OSKit has a lot of unmanaged code though (I could be wrong), so all those would have to be reimplemented Scheme-side. 00:18:25 yea theres a lot of C code there 00:18:55 but at some point you have to have an x86 layer running your scheme code 00:19:39 Yes, of course. The idea is that the bootloader and the initial JIT compiler could be AOT compiled from the Scheme code, but after that everything else is JITted from there on. 00:20:01 So it would involve implementing a JIT as well as an AOT, just to allow bootstrapping. 00:20:22 Of course the idea is that both of those compilers would be written in 100% Scheme, also. 00:21:08 I would also want the system to initially be buildable with a mainstream Scheme implementation such as Racket. That way people who want to play have somewhere to start from. 00:22:20 I also envision that the initial AOT'd boot code would sit in the same memory format as the actual system, so once the booting is done, that code can all just get GC'd. 00:22:38 :p well, good luck 00:22:55 Thanks! I'll see how far I get, how much time I get, etc. :-D 00:40:23 theoros [~theoros@unaffiliated/theoros] has joined #scheme 00:40:33 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:42:30 -!- theoros [~theoros@unaffiliated/theoros] has left #scheme 00:44:53 *bremner* nominates AOT compiler for stupidest buzword of the decade 00:45:00 buzzword even 00:45:55 -!- Scala_ [~agscala@198.111.39.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:49:59 bremner: :-P 00:57:53 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.141.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:00:18 -!- lbc [~lbc@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: lbc] 01:16:13 danbrown [~jdanbrown@209-6-26-246.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:38:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:37 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-206.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:41:27 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-190.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:41:40 -!- 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[~RageOfTho@users-55-200.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:39:21 erflynn [~user@ip153157.uvm.edu] has joined #scheme 15:41:41 -!- ski [~slj@c-3810e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 16:03:38 ski [~slj@c-3810e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:05:38 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:10:20 -!- slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:34 -!- danbrown [~jdanbrown@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: danbrown] 16:12:44 danbrown [~jdanbrown@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:15:23 -!- jao [~user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:19:10 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 16:25:50 I've been thinking about a Scheme API to the Unicode Database (one of the WG2 work items), and it leads to the apparent need for a new kind of symbol or symbol-like object in Scheme. 16:26:53 Fundamentally, the UCD is just a property-value map for each character (and certain other objects). However, the properties and the values have multiple equivalent names. 16:27:28 (That is, the enumerated properties; there's no issue for numerical or boolean properties, their values are numbers and #t/#f) 16:29:53 For example, the Bidi_Class property can have the value L, which is the usual way people think of as that value. However, the canonical name of the value is Left_To_Right. That in turn is still recognizable if case folded and with _s dropped. 16:30:24 However, L might also be the value of some other property, in which case it might have very different semantics and therefore equivalences. 16:32:00 This suggests something like a symbol, but with multiple names and the ability to be compared to a string using a folding predicate specified when the symbol is created. 16:32:27 Does this seem like a useful general-purpose data structure? 16:36:09 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:36:25 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:07 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: klovett] 16:51:58 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:55:11 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:02:52 -!- danbrown [~jdanbrown@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: danbrown] 17:12:46 jcowan: My gut feelings say that it's almost like attaching traits to a symbol. So L could have a trait named Bidi_Direction or something, and anything with a trait named Bidi_Direction can be used for the Bidi_Class property. 17:13:09 "trait" is a term from C++. Other terms like metadata (from Clojure) or anything else could work too. *shrug* 17:15:33 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:24:03 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: klovett] 17:24:28 Hmm. Welcome to the symbol p-list. 17:27:06 :-) 17:32:35 On reflection, it probably makes sense to reify these things directly, because properties have other metaproperties (normative, informative, deprecated, obsolete, ...) 17:33:24 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 17:43:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:49 wingo [~wingo@81.38.181.220] has joined #scheme 17:47:11 jennyf [~jennyf@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #scheme 17:48:37 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:01 -!- jennyf [~jennyf@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 17:50:56 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:51:31 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:17 sepp2k [~sexy@p548CE256.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:54:40 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:11 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 18:05:23 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:38 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 18:13:19 nonamesporting [bc521fb3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.82.31.179] has joined #scheme 18:13:20 Good Night 18:13:48 some friends recommend me SICP. SICP is usefull for what? I know some C and some Pascal 18:14:50 It has many uses 18:15:16 It can be used to learn about programming, or to raise your monitor or laptop to a more comfortable viewing position 18:15:36 It can be placed upon a book case to impress visitors, and give the impression that you're intelligent and educated 18:16:25 ok 18:16:46 it is usefull do learn it after all? 18:17:15 It could be used as a historical document to extrapolate the state of the art of computer technology around the turn of the third millenium, or as a means to build a psychological profile of the authors 18:17:25 Yeah, it's great for learning about programming, too 18:17:29 But I'm trying to be creative here! 18:18:02 wingo: Sanity check please :-): http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3833572 18:18:17 good evening 18:18:20 wingo: (Figured that since you're the maintainer of guile-cairo, you'd be best to talk about this. :-P) 18:18:25 wingo: Heya! :-D 18:19:09 alaricsp: why it is good? it uses a lot of hard maths? 18:20:02 It's a nice colour. Distinctive - you can easily tell, at a glance, if somebody's bookshelves contain a copy of SICP. 18:20:31 i am trying to have a decente conversation 18:21:19 "Hard maths" is very much in the eye of the beholder 18:21:43 These days, I routinely manage feats of mathematical analysis *in my head* that would have thwarted me in the past. 18:21:50 What is "hard"? It depends on the reader 18:21:59 cky: indeed, the docs appear to be wrong on that point. can you file a bug please? :) 18:22:03 Some of the maths in SICP is harder than other bits 18:22:04 alaricsp: i am in 10º 18:22:20 wingo: Okie dokie. :-D (Does my answer look sane, at least? :-)) 18:22:36 so, 3 year and i go to univ 18:22:39 cky: yep, indeed 18:22:50 Ahah 18:23:08 jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 18:23:08 wingo: Thanks! :-) 18:23:31 I think that, if you find any of the maths in it difficult, you can just skip that bit. It uses maths, but it's not *about* the maths. 18:23:50 alaricsp: ok i will be it a try 18:23:56 -!- nonamesporting [bc521fb3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.82.31.179] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:24:06 Perhaps he was for real after all! 18:24:10 Perhaps 18:25:41 I wonder if the intersection of "not amusing for trolls" and "useful to actual noobs" is the empty set or not... 18:28:26 Scala_ [~agscala@198.111.39.24] has joined #scheme 18:41:35 alaricsp: just use higher maths :P 18:41:51 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:58:26 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 19:05:21 -!- Scala_ [~agscala@198.111.39.24] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:06:36 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:34 Scala_ [~agscala@198.111.39.24] has joined #scheme 19:15:41 -!- erflynn [~user@ip153157.uvm.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:12 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.146.42] has 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