00:01:40 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:06:12 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 00:12:28 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 00:26:34 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:27:25 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:30:23 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:34:05 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:42:32 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:42:39 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:04 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e0aadb6.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 00:52:30 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:53:03 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: klovett] 01:00:08 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-199-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:09:13 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:24:34 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:26 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:48 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:41:55 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-79.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:49 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:50:13 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-191.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:51:00 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable062.175-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:01:18 I'm trying to find a better name for "datagram-endpoint" that isn't so long 02:01:53 dgep! 02:02:13 dgram-endpt 02:02:17 =) 02:11:32 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:18:25 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:19:06 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 02:20:15 jcowan: (let ((de datagram-endpoint)) ...) ;D 02:21:18 It's more about all the other names. 02:30:20 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:31:10 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:31:55 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:28 -!- grettke [~grettke@cpe-65-30-30-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:34:59 Quadrescence: What's up with you and WG2? 02:36:02 jcowan: Well I've been kind of busy lately, but also it seems some of the things I've written have almost been ignored. 02:36:14 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 02:36:34 (also my video card blew up) 02:37:18 That would make it tough, yeah. 02:37:35 Well I'm staying above water now with a broken card and one monitor. 02:40:38 AFAICT you have only ever posted to the WG2 mailing list once 02:40:56 Yeah, I think so, but then again, there's a lot of crossing between 1 and 2 02:41:12 http://groups.google.com/group/scheme-reports-wg2/msg/4ae01dc0c575cbdf?dmode=source 02:41:12 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2es839u 02:41:57 I haven't posted a lot on 1 either. I've had a very hard time keeping up with the bandwidth of the groups, all this cross referencing and very long posts. Don't get me wrong; I want to participate, but I don't want to throw my opinions out there and then be closed off. I'm just cautious about voting on things when I haven't seen the big picture (i.e. what everyone things and *why* they do) 02:42:00 True, but no crossposts from you. 02:42:15 Did you not get my requests to vote on the WG2 list of packages / work items, though? 02:42:59 I don't recall getting anything, but I'm sure I did and missed it in one of my 8 mailboxes :( 02:44:35 I really should buckle down about it though. I was just especially unhappy with the response (or lack thereof) of a post in WG1, but didn't want to create ``drama'' 02:45:21 pumpkin [~copumpkin@72-255-11-21.client.stsn.net] has joined #scheme 02:45:26 which post? 02:46:06 It was sent to quadricode at gmail dot com. 02:46:07 http://groups.google.com/group/scheme-reports-wg1/browse_thread/thread/7680f1fe275ba315/da5ae36a38d305b4#da5ae36a38d305b4 02:46:08 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/34jpj6z 02:46:14 is your wg1 post 02:47:16 Yes, I was particularly unhappy about that. But posts continued to follow after that about so many mundane (and in my eyes, unimportant) things. 02:48:22 Do you have time/energy/drive to do some WG2 work at this point, do you think? 02:48:32 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: klovett] 02:49:54 Yes, I do. I'm not releasing all the fault for my activity. Sometimes I forget about it and get so deep into my two bigger projects. But to answer your question, yes, I can certainly put more energy into it. I'm actually printing out a few things now. 02:50:05 Quadrescence: I'll re-read your post if you vote :P 02:50:26 foof: I'm printing out the vote table now so I can mark things off. 02:52:25 Quadrescence: Please look at http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/StandardDocket and see if there's anything there you'd like to present a proposal for. Obviously, empty items are important, but if you don't like one of the proposals there, consider writing your own. 02:52:35 timj_ [~timj@e176195122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:34 -!- timj [~timj@e176197211.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:56:57 jcowan: I am looking at your `set' stuff now. It just seems like this is a (partially) wrong way to go about things. In the most ideal world, I'd be a ruler and demand everything is organized almost algebraically. "This type supports these properties and is required to be equipped with these procedures". But it seems to be just a rehash of what we already have, just with new names and perhaps some extra things added. 02:57:15 Oh, and I'm not referring to your `set' stuff specifically, just using it as an example. 02:57:46 I understand. 02:57:57 I'm not sure what I would do differently, though. 02:58:10 There are already list-based sets in SRFI-1. 02:58:19 So these are meant to be "efficient sets" 03:00:33 I suppose in the strictest sense, there's nothing much more you could do. What I'm asking for requires language fundamentals to be put in place, and disjoint types, and subtyping relations---all of which can fit in the scheme paradigm, but don't seem to really be catching on. 03:01:11 jcowan: You own the wiki, yes? Could you add jsMath to it by any chance? 03:01:25 Arcfide owns the wiki, actually. 03:01:34 I see. 03:01:51 I don't know if he can do jsMath or not. 03:02:26 It's really easy to add (just requires adding a line to the header of each page, which should be possible if they're dynamically generated) 03:02:58 I understand, but wiki pages come from wiki-text format; I don't think you can embed random HTML in them. 03:03:17 Ah, yeah. 03:06:41 I just added "Sets, bags, and integer sets are mutually disjoint and disjoint from other types of Scheme objects" to the page; I omitted it inadvertently. 03:12:19 I'm going through my other proposals and adding similar language. 03:12:34 The only exception is that 1-dimensional arrays are allowed to be the same as or disjoint from vectors. 03:13:31 I want to drop the name "vector" altogether :) 03:18:16 We are stuck with it. 03:18:56 It will take *extreme* arguments to justify changing or removing anything in R5RS. 03:19:31 Specifically, ideally we'd have arrays, and then vectors would actually be immutable (in size) tuples 03:19:47 How is that different from 1-dimensional arrays? 03:20:22 1D array = scheme vector; mathematical vector = tuple 03:20:50 Okay, but what is the operational significance of the distinction? 03:21:48 Tuples shouldn't be resized; they are fixed-width containers 03:21:56 Oh, and arrays should be? 03:22:07 Yes 03:22:17 Okay, that's definitely worth writing down on the wiki 03:22:33 as an alternative to ArraysCowan, which only allows unresizable mutable arrays. 03:23:18 From my point of view, resizable arrays = boxes + unresizable arrays. 03:23:50 Do you edit the wiki anonymously, or what's the login? 03:25:57 Non-anonymously, you should have your own login. 03:26:06 If you send it to me, I'll post it in my name. 03:27:02 s/my name/your name 03:32:22 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:34:37 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~sexy@p548CCA09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: sepp2k] 18:52:23 sepp2k [~sexy@p548CCA09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:52:36 Does anyone know how to extend "fold" to multidimensional arrays? Does one need to specify a dimension and fold along that dimension only, or is there some alternative approach? 18:52:50 hadronzoo [~user@71.21.200.158] has joined #scheme 18:53:04 where does "format" go in r6rs? I'm just trying to do some simple format-string textual output. 18:53:34 I recommend Alex Shinn's "fmt" package. 18:54:19 why isn't it just the same as before? 18:54:31 (format "test ~a~%" "something") 18:55:05 Before what? Some Schemes may have "format", but it's no part of R5RS. 18:55:51 so just people that have srfi28? 18:55:55 err schemes* 18:56:57 -!- hadronzoo [~user@71.21.200.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:14 hadronzoo [~user@71.21.200.158] has joined #scheme 18:58:23 jcowan: There are two approaches I could imagine: an order-unspecified fold, and a row-major fold. 18:58:46 The former is attractive from an implementation perspective, and if the user really doesn't care what order the array elements are visited in, would provide the best efficiency. 18:59:52 The latter might be of use because row-major array indexing has historical precedent and thus might be a natural order for an order-dependent fold. 19:00:23 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:00:24 I agree about row-major folding. The trouble with unspecified-order folding is that it's not clear why you would want it, since the result is *extremely* unspecified. 19:01:04 It's only extremely unspecified if the operation is order-dependent. 19:01:14 I bumped up on this when adding folding to sets, where unspecified order is all you can get, but where it makes no sense to accept multiple set arguments (unlike list-fold and vector-fold). 19:01:20 s/on this/against this 19:01:25 If you're finding the largest element in an array, or summing the elements, or any number of other things, order-unspecified is perfectly fine. 19:01:44 Fair enough, but is there any real advantage to unspecified order over row-major order? 19:01:59 Could be more efficient. 19:02:24 (Given that row-major operations are already in the API) 19:09:26 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:53 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:23 Jafet1 [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 19:18:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:53 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:20:51 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 19:25:07 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:32 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@70-36-245-104.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 19:29:04 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:35:11 chandler: I've been urged to read "Bananas in Space", which is about extending folds. 19:38:43 jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 19:39:56 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@70-36-245-104.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:49:11 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 19:58:45 -!- hadronzoo [~user@71.21.200.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 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