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[~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIVE-THIRTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 09:08:15 kar8nga [~kar8nga@78.104.80.126] has joined #scheme 09:08:17 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@78.104.80.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28:19 vpalle_ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has joined #scheme 09:32:01 vpalle__ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has joined #scheme 09:32:48 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:35:07 -!- vpalle_ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:40:29 -!- IJP [~Ian@host109-154-196-205.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:42:24 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:55:32 -!- vpalle__ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:19:39 Blkt [~user@net-93-146-156-187.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 10:19:39 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:38 good day everyone 10:27:22 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:27:31 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:27:48 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:31:34 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-112.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 10:31:35 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-112.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 10:33:03 rtra_ [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 10:35:03 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:36:02 Blkt: bizarre that nothing happened in the seven hours and thirty-one minutes you were asleep; and shame on you for getting less than eight. 10:37:52 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 10:38:51 less than eight? 10:38:52 really? 10:39:50 well, even in boredom, I wish you a good day :D 10:42:57 Blkt: heh; thanks. but, literally: the channel has been dead but for your pleasant salutation and valediction. 10:43:57 god damn. there's people trying to sleep here. 10:46:30 rtra_: you shouldn't forget to turn off your irc-to-speech synthesizer when the scheme philosophers emerge at night. 10:47:55 -!- rtra_ is now known as rtra 10:54:10 are you telling me we should warm this chan up klutometis? 10:56:09 pumpkin [~copumpkin@94.165.10.59] has joined #scheme 10:57:25 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@94.164.110.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:00:24 Blkt: that would be nice; it's lonely hacking to the sound of crickets in IRC. 11:01:17 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:01:17 Hydr4 [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 11:02:19 I have a fresh argument to talk about 11:02:59 I recently implemented a genetic algorithm to solve the 8 queens problem (in Common Lisp) and I don't understand why it is so slow to find a solution 11:03:13 do you have any proficiency in genetic algorithms? 11:04:53 Blkt: i've implemented some toy GAs; do you have any code you can show? 11:05:02 sure 11:05:09 do you mind to read some CL code? 11:05:13 nope 11:05:34 ok, I'll paste it somewhere on the web, give me a sec 11:08:50 -!- Hydr4 [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [] 11:08:56 klutometis: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114254 11:09:23 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-18.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:24:31 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:09 femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 11:29:42 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 11:37:23 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:43:21 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48:39 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:58:08 -!- rtra 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reset by peer] 14:06:50 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:07:43 -!- DrDuck2 [~duck@146.229.119.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:08:02 -!- jao [~user@83.50.71.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:44 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-112.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:23:59 stis: thanks, was out of town, will look at that tomorrow 14:23:59 foof, memo from rudybot: sjamaan told me to tell you: someone found a bug in match.scm 14:23:59 foof, memo from stis: for possable bug see http://pastebin.com/rUsNb9R7, latest change was 2009/11/25 in the match.scm file which is used in guile! 14:23:59 foof, memo from stis: please look at the comment inside the pasted define-syntax form 14:24:17 wb foof 14:26:37 travel is so tiring 14:26:45 That, it is 14:26:49 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 14:40:39 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-78-210.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:41:48 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-36-247.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:28 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:04 BW^- [~Miranda@92.81.197.87] has joined #scheme 14:48:18 i think there's a "implement a haskell interpreter in scheme" guide out there. any idea? 14:48:38 Hmmm, Haskell looks like it'd be a pain to parse, what with the user-efined operators and all. 14:48:47 Checked readscheme.org, BW^-? 14:49:20 I do have a "implement a scheme interpreter in haskell in 48 hours" pdf 14:49:31 "Write yourself a Scheme in 48 hours - a Haskell tutorial.pdf" 14:50:07 mmh m. 14:50:52 perhaps it was that i was looking for 14:51:06 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:52:46 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-18.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:13 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-18.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:56:06 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:41 choas [~lars@p5792CF1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:08:48 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:08:48 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:50 homie` [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:09:12 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:11:00 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:11:02 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:11:06 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:31 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:12:02 homie` [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:12:24 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:47 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 15:14:55 homie [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:15:16 wbooze [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:16:47 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:17:48 hm. 15:18:02 -!- cpressey [~catseye@adsl-99-92-186-206.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:18:07 if the idea of scheme is "let's make a programming language of lambda calculus", what's haskell? 15:18:12 (the idea of h.) 15:18:43 somewhat. I find that scheme is already close enough to lambda calculus. 15:19:57 ah. what i meant was, i have no idea about the point of haskell. i know scheme perfectly well. wanted to check out h. for if there's any interesting concept, understanding or alike 15:19:58 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e055c8a.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 15:20:12 so, just wanted to check if you're aware that there's any idea behind it 15:20:54 (btw, in this context, the idea behind c is, "let's make a programming language that translates real well to assembly, while maintaining good readability for humen") 15:20:56 Well, haskell is more purely functionnal a programming language. 15:21:17 Moreover, haskell is strongly and early typed, while scheme is strongly but lately typed. 15:21:33 take Scheme and define the mutator procedures to error, and you have the same. :) 15:21:45 Basically, yes. 15:22:08 You can use the functionnal subset of scheme to write functionnal programs. 15:22:18 If you add lazy evaluation you've got it. 15:22:22 right, i understood the type system is central to haskell, it has some kind of dynamic datatype system, with a pattern matcher, that everything is built around. 15:22:28 i suppose Racket has sth similar in Scheme. 15:22:41 On the other hand, sometimes it's good to he able to use different paradygms in a single program. 15:22:48 Even more for different programs. 15:23:36 jao [~user@83.50.71.238] has joined #scheme 15:24:31 http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/preface-jfp.html 15:28:09 pjb: what was your point now, that scheme allows lazy and non-lazy evaluation while haskell only allows lazy? 15:28:37 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:35:13 vpalle__ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has joined #scheme 15:37:10 mmh, scheme with its simplicity is good. 15:37:26 and syntax, symmetry throughout 15:37:54 The Haskell tutorial `Write yourself a Scheme in 48 hours' is full of nonsense about the semantics of Scheme and about writing Haskell programs. I highly recommend avoiding it. 15:38:16 riastradh: thx. 15:38:51 Here is my response to it -- it is incomplete, but essentially more accurate to the semantics of Scheme, and it makes better use of Haskell's abstraction facilities: . Sorry it isn't in tutorial form, though. 15:38:56 from a schemer's perspective, what's a monad? 15:40:03 Riastradh: Good to know. I hadn't read it yet, and now I know I'd better not do that at all :) 15:40:42 riastradh: hm, it would be cool if you advertised this code a bit 15:41:09 like, put a nice header on it, make a descriptory page in some wiki about it like "this shows how easy scheme is implemented in haskell", and link to it from 4-5 places 15:42:12 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:42:34 A monad is a set of objects that represent sequential computations that yield values, together with some operations for making and composing such objects. The two main operations are (UNIT ), which yields a computation that does nothing but yields the value ; and (EXTEND ), which creates a computation that first runs , then applies to the value it yields, and then runs the computation that You got clipped on "that ...that returns. 15:46:31 Example: Suppose you have a tree, and you want to construct a tree just like it, but where each node has a unique integer associated with it. You have some operations on trees: (MAKE-NODE ), (NODE-LEFT ), &c.; leaves are #F. One way to do this is to use a MAP-TREE procedure, which does the obvious recursion: (make-node (map-tree procedure left) (procedure datum) (map-tree procedure right)). 15:47:03 Then in Scheme, we can write: (let ((number 0)) (map-tree (lambda (datum) (let ((n number)) (set! number (+ n 1)) (cons n datum))) tree)) 15:47:06 -!- C-Keen [ckeen@pestilenz.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:52 But suppose we didn't have SET! -- in fact, we have no side effects. 15:47:56 C-Keen [ckeen@pestilenz.org] has joined #scheme 15:48:07 Now we're in a bit of a pickle, because we need to transmit state between the different nodes. 15:48:31 MAP-TREE is no good, so let's try writing the recursion manually. 15:49:16 gtg. 15:49:25 riastradh and all: thx 15:49:27 OK. 15:49:46 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@92.81.197.87] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 15:54:58 I dislike monads 15:55:39 The fact that introducing a monad requires breaking all your handy high-order functions that just walk a data structure irks me 15:55:39 Better not use Scheme, then -- the semantics of Scheme is full of them. 15:56:16 If they're hidden in the semantics, I'm not bothered by them :-) If I have to use them by hand, grrr. 15:57:41 The purpose of the abstraction of the Monad type class in Haskell is to allow higher-order abstractions that cooperate with monads. Thus, we can have a MAP-TREE that works, if we tell it what monad we're using, which is what the type system does tacitly for us in Haskell. 15:58:35 Aye 15:59:25 My knowledge of practical monad use in Haskell is limited to that which can be obtained from reading "Real-World Haskell", and the hoops jumped through therein to get seeminly simple things done made me wince. 15:59:37 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:23 -!- vpalle__ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:00:28 (define (map-tree unit extend) (define (map-tree procedure tree) (if (not (node? tree)) (unit tree) (do* ((left (map-tree procedure (node-left node))) (datum (procedure (node-datum node))) (right (map-tree procedure (node-right node)))) (unit (make-node left datum right))))) map-tree) 16:02:29 *alaricsp* never ceases to be impressed by Riastradh's ability to summon code like that on demand 16:10:39 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 16:11:39 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 16:11:58 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:12:33 vpalle__ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has joined #scheme 16:13:50 kar8nga [~kar8nga@m-181.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 16:13:54 Blkt` [~user@net-93-146-156-187.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 16:16:25 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-146-156-187.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:18:55 *pjb* never ceases to be impressed by alaricsp's ability to summon English sentences like that on demand. 16:19:08 Scheme is a language, like English. You speak it or you don't... 16:20:47 ;-) 16:21:48 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:22:30 luz [~davids@201.17.88.176] has joined #scheme 16:23:58 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 16:25:31 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 16:27:35 schmir [~schmir@p54A90452.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:28:04 Checkie [16451@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 16:37:48 -!- vpalle__ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39:26 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:45:34 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@m-181.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:26 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90452.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:55:35 hypercube32 [~hypercube@125.155.202.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:01:43 -!- kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:09:05 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-18.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:26 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-18.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:09:48 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:15 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:19:20 hey foof: 17:21:49 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 17:22:12 minion: memo for foof: in the *** pattern shoud there not be a (sk ... i) in stead of a plain sk? 17:22:12 Remembered. I'll tell foof when he/she/it next speaks. 17:23:01 BW^- [~Miranda@92.81.197.87] has joined #scheme 17:23:10 riastradh: i quit right in the middle of us talking about monads 17:23:20 kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:23:25 so you described what a monad is, the two basic variants, and started an example. 17:25:55 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #scheme 17:29:34 jcowan [~John@p-68-237-140-231.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #scheme 17:29:58 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 17:32:09 *jcowan* appears 17:32:37 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:18 -!- kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36:01 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:36:55 Azure_Varisha [~azure@electric.azureprime.com] has joined #scheme 17:39:24 BW^-: It's a lousy PDF, but you might find http://www.cs.indiana.edu/l/www/classes/b621/rember.pdf interesting. 17:40:15 (If you already grok CPS, that is.) 17:43:35 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 17:49:08 Well, one certainly can see why it works. 17:50:29 BW^-, exercise: write a procedure that numbers the nodes of a tree, like I described, without using SET! or any side effects. Suggestion: write a recursive procedure that takes two arguments, a node and an unused number, and returns two values, the numbered node and the next unused value after numbering the node and its children. 17:50:36 chandler: grok CPS yes. 17:50:54 -!- Azure_Varisha [~azure@electric.azureprime.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:52:06 (brb) 17:52:10 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@92.81.197.87] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 17:53:16 *jcowan* fears the monad in general, but this particular monad seems quite tame, really. 17:54:49 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@125.155.202.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:01:20 -!- Blkt` [~user@net-93-146-156-187.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please!] 18:03:30 kniu [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:20:36 kar8nga [~kar8nga@i-190.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 18:20:41 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 18:27:11 DrDuck2 [~duck@146.229.119.159] has joined #scheme 18:27:24 -!- DrDuck2 [~duck@146.229.119.159] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:49 DrAfk [~duck@146.229.119.159] has joined #scheme 18:28:18 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:25 -!- DrAfk is now known as DrDuck 18:32:03 -!- DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.159] has left #scheme 18:38:21 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@i-190.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit 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