00:00:26 you can use macros to do that 00:02:01 currently the parameter is a number and I expect 0-9 so a cond or case would be still ok, but this can easily increase anytime to dozens of values so building the name out of parameters seems to be the best solution 00:02:20 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:03:07 you shouldnt really do that anyway 00:03:15 you could have a mapping between some symbol and a function 00:03:23 (list (list 'foo foo) ...) 00:03:30 so you can find the 'foo symbol and get the foo function 00:04:13 mbishop [~mbishop@adsl-157-34-242.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 00:04:42 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-61-161.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:04:48 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-61-161.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:05:40 well the problem really is in another place. That instead of a function (change [value]) we have (change0) (change1)....(change9) and my function just wants a simple number. 00:05:56 so best way would be to change the change function in c 00:06:11 (its exported) 00:07:13 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-232-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:07:28 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-232-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:13:46 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:13:50 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adafe9d.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 00:13:53 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:18:50 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:18:58 emma [~em@user-0ccemf4.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 00:19:03 -!- emma [~em@user-0ccemf4.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:19:04 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:19:18 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@195-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:21:07 somnium [~user@adsl-65-185-34.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 00:23:45 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:25:26 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:29:28 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:32:37 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-178.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:34:58 emma [~em@user-0ccemf4.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 00:34:58 -!- emma [~em@user-0ccemf4.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:34:58 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:36:02 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:39:27 kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:39:35 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:45:21 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:56:14 -!- githogori [~githogori@70.sub-75-210-122.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:55 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:17 -!- mmc [~michal@93-39-42-235.ip74.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:19:14 what a great feeling! Reduced filesize/linecount to 1/3, better documentation and its faster! 01:19:21 :) 01:19:22 nice 01:19:27 yay refactoring 01:28:44 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:34:20 Delita [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:39:58 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 01:41:47 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 01:43:58 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-49-233.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:44:42 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:45:06 lucca, oh, that was a while ago. I made the static linker generate ELF, and wrote an assembler to generate PowerPC, but stopped there: I never wrote a dynamic suspender (the analogue of SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE, except without the dying part) or compiler back end for the PowerPC, and now I use x86 machines and MIT Scheme. 01:45:57 -!- rtra_ [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:46:16 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 01:47:06 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 01:47:35 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-49-233.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 01:54:50 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:58:10 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:00:55 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 02:06:00 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:07:50 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:10:58 -!- lbc [~lbc@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: lbc] 02:11:38 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:00 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:15:35 Hmmm, thought you'd never switch, heh. 02:16:42 Blame Apple for that; after you've blamed Apple, blame expedience -- after all, the x86 won. 02:16:59 for now. 02:18:02 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 02:18:33 it's not like all the PowerPC Macs just stopped existing. 02:18:39 *FurnaceBoy* still uses G4 and G5 02:19:05 Anyway, now I have ceased using Apple's products, and perhaps some day I'll come across a super-low-power ARM laptop (ha), or buy a MIPS-based Lemote laptop, if they ever come out with a proper-size one, rather than a netbook that feels like I need tweezers to operate it. 02:24:53 sjamaan: remember those experiments we did with STRUCT->alist and alist->STRUCT in defstruct? 02:25:23 would it be just as practical to implement a printer for structs that were less opaque than the default #? 02:26:08 Riastradh: are you morally opposed to macbook-airs? 02:27:59 it seems to be the closest i've come to a satisfying netbook experience. 02:30:02 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@h-67-101-148-122.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:31:30 Netbook? I don't want a netbook; I want a laptop. 02:33:03 Riastradh: I'm sorry to ask you such mundane questions, and I apologise if I'm simply being obtuse, but I'm not sure where else to turn. I've read of a fabled "SICP compatibility package" for MIT Scheme, does this exist? Do I need to use an old release? (I can only find 7.7) If so, how do I load it? Is it a compile-time option? Etc etc. 02:33:56 Riastradh: but surely you don't want to carry some R2-D2-looking monstrosity every time you head to new york; the air is light and reasonably capacious. or do you use your laptop as a desktop, too? 02:35:27 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:36:05 franki^, all I know is that in MIT Scheme, there is a 6001 directory and a sicp directory, the 6001 directory being newer than the sicp directory, but I don't think either one has been used in a long time. 02:37:00 franki^: have you come across any specific incompatibilities with SICP, by the way? i recall having to supplement MIT with a threads package of some sort; but that was it. 02:38:08 klutometis: I was trying to use the picture language "libraries" here: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/psets/ps4hnd/readme.html But they were giving me errors when I tried to load them. 02:38:22 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:38:27 xissburg [~chatzilla@187.3.138.192] has joined #scheme 02:38:36 incubot: (+ 2 3) 02:38:36 5 02:38:44 I suppose it's not that important, but there's something about me that craves some kind of "completeness" that I would feel if I got it to work. :) 02:39:09 franki^: oh, interesting; i confess that i never went beyond an "abstract" picture language to look at the actual pictures. 02:41:11 franki^, well, you can try this: (cd "/path/to/mit-scheme/src/6001") (for-each load '("6001.sf" "6001.cbf" "make")) (for-each cf '("/path/to/prmpnt" "/path/to/hutils" ...)) (for-each load '("/path/to/prmpnt" ...)). I have no idea whether it will do the right thing, though. 02:42:56 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:45:01 incubot: (define lol +) 02:45:02 # 02:45:10 incubot: (lol 2 3) 02:45:10 Error: unbound variable: lol 02:47:03 Riastradh: Hmm, I appear not to have the /src/ directory any more, but I'll save your instructions and redownload and stuff. I kind of messed everything up trying to install some old version of MIT Scheme from the actual SICP book page. Heh. 02:47:13 Luckily it's all in /usr/local/ :) 02:48:27 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@14.154.202.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:32 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:49:57 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:51:11 xissburg: try append the expressions on the same line or using LET 02:52:00 Sigh, I confuse myself sometimes. :( 02:52:03 klutometis: I was just playing with it..I'd try doing (define + -) to screw it up but it won't work lol 02:52:36 I guess some day someone should go through SICP and revive the 6001 directory so it supports everything in SICP, rather than everything in the 6.001 course as it was run through the nineties. 02:53:41 Riastradh: I would love to be that person! (Okay, to help that person...) 02:58:06 :) 03:01:40 I should rewrite SICP using Java instead 03:01:52 Quadrescence: oh, the trees... 03:02:01 (pun not intended) 03:02:24 That way users can learn about important things like parsing, which is skipped entirely in a book dedicated to computer science. 03:02:25 Quadrescence: you're a very bad, bad man 03:03:52 Quadrescence: I secretly have a crush on you. 03:04:36 ._. 03:04:48 -!- luz [~davids@201.17.88.176] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 03:06:20 -!- wingo [~wingo@173.243.145.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:08:39 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:38 -!- FurnaceBoy [~FurnaceBo@bas2-toronto10-2925235460.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 03:10:57 hohoho [~hohoho@bm210-148-126-104.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:28:25 FurnaceBoy [~FurnaceBo@bas2-toronto10-2925235460.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 03:34:20 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:34:41 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 03:38:06 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:38:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:40:13 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:40:50 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-49-233.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:43:44 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:44:28 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:45:32 -!- xissburg [~chatzilla@187.3.138.192] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 03:47:30 Riastradh: Okay, with a cleanly installed MIT Scheme 9.0.1 (for-each load '("6001.sf" "6001.cbf" "make")) appears to work and to load me into the student package, which is great. And the (for-each cf ...) command works too, but when I try to load prmpnt it says ;Unbound variable: floating-vector-ref 03:48:40 Riastradh: But, I think that error is different from the error I got previously, which said something about passing an environment that wasn't an environment IIRC. (Although that's probably totally irrelevant) 03:48:41 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-49-233.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 03:54:25 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 04:03:05 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:04:15 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:04:55 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-101.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:24 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:15:49 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 04:28:46 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:38:40 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:51:56 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 04:53:57 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:04:21 -!- FurnaceBoy [~FurnaceBo@bas2-toronto10-2925235460.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 05:08:52 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@bm210-148-126-104.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:17:49 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:30:32 Rakko [~rakko@71-90-73-192.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:31:45 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-61-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:31:50 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-61-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:36:33 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:37:14 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 05:42:07 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:48:59 emma [~em@user-0ccemf4.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 05:49:03 -!- emma [~em@user-0ccemf4.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:49:03 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 05:54:28 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-101.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 06:00:38 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:00:44 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 06:08:59 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:10:46 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 06:16:15 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 06:24:05 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #scheme 06:38:37 -!- Rakko [~rakko@71-90-73-192.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Rakko] 06:48:00 jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:55:06 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 06:55:26 klutometis: Perhaps. I don't really know why the default printer doesn't include more useful info 07:15:21 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 07:19:24 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:23:00 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-37.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 07:27:42 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: fud] 07:28:13 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 07:31:15 samth [~samth@ip212-238-40-249.hotspotsvankpn.com] has joined #scheme 07:33:31 stamourv [~user@ip212-238-57-177.hotspotsvankpn.com] has joined #scheme 07:36:24 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:39:44 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-37.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:44:50 easy4 [~easy4@c-174-60-36-128.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:49:30 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:53:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 07:58:31 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:05:01 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 08:13:17 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 08:18:32 paines [3e60ca24@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.96.202.36] has joined #scheme 08:19:14 hi 08:21:19 I am new to scheme and started reading "little schemer". now I would like to try some of the code. however I don't know how to assign values to variables or declare variables. 08:26:16 you don't need any of that for the little schemer 08:27:45 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:31:15 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: TV] 08:41:21 paines: if you want to work with variables, why not start with SICP? http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 08:42:11 xissburg: really? why can't you do something like this? 08:42:15 incubot: (let ((+ -)) (+ 5 2)) 08:42:16 3 08:42:53 is anyone aware of an idiom for NOOP in scheme, by the way? i came up with (lambda x '()), but it seems arbitrary. 08:43:14 VALUES, maybe? 08:43:33 klutometis: perhaps identity = (lambda (x) x) 08:44:21 klutometis: well, what I am missing is the information how to try those examples, e.g. (rember a lat) where a ist mint and lat is (bacon jelly and mint). 08:44:39 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-101.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:26 paines: you can write ((lambda (a lat) (rember a lat)) 'mint '(bacon jelly and mint)) 08:45:48 paines: or equivalently (let ((a 'mint) (lat '(bacon jelly and mint))) (rember a lat)) 08:46:05 The thing is, quoting is handled much later in the book 08:46:13 pjb: thanks 08:46:23 paines: You'll probably be more confused by trying out code than just following along in the book 08:46:38 i am wondering why they didn't mention this at the very beginnig of the book 08:47:14 paines: at the time when "The Little Lisper" first edition was written, people didn't have computers in their pockets or at home. 08:47:29 sjamaan: well, i am following the book, and really like it, but at some point e.g. wher ethey ask you to write down the function rember e.g. you would like to try it in real 08:47:40 pjb: ahhh. good point 08:47:44 *sjamaan* nods 08:47:59 But sure, we want to try it out... 08:48:01 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-134-38.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 08:48:14 okay. thank you very much guys 08:48:52 pjb: well, (lambda x x) would at least allow one to pass an unlimited number of arguments; on the other hand, if unnecessarily returns x. 08:49:37 s/if/it/ 08:53:46 paines, there's a guide to how to type in the functions at the beginning of the book 08:54:10 samth: really ? okay. i will check my copy 08:54:25 samth: thanks 08:55:37 it's mostly about notation 08:56:41 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:01:37 klutometis: the point is that the API of the NOOP depends on where it's used. 09:02:25 (and noop a b) vs. (or noop a b) ; perhaps in the first case you want (lambda () #t) and in the later (lambda () #f)... 09:02:43 (and (noop) a b) vs. (or (noop) a b) I mean. 09:08:51 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adafe9d.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 09:18:24 moell [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 09:39:59 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 09:42:14 pjb: you're exactly right, i think. 09:42:30 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #scheme 09:44:12 everytime i'm forced into extra-scheme exile, there is an epiphany coming back to scheme w.r.t. how natural, how humane it is; scheme never ceases to access my endorphin receptors without the noise engendered by sub-humane (sic) languages. 09:48:48 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 09:50:11 or maybe it's the dopamine receptors. 09:52:17 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 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[Client Quit] 13:27:41 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:27:49 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 13:33:27 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #scheme 13:40:33 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:43:41 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 13:43:42 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:49:49 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:21 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 13:59:08 femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-137-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 14:00:24 -!- Nils^ [steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has left #scheme 14:07:35 FurnaceBoy [~FurnaceBo@bas2-toronto10-2925235460.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 14:15:15 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-212.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:15:27 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16:36 -!- IJP [~Ian@host109-154-194-223.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:16:46 fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has joined #scheme 14:24:49 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-150.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:24:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:27:35 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:16 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-154.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:35:57 you talk funny 14:37:29 *gnomon* imagines that line delivered in a thick southern accent 14:40:41 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-194-11.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:40:55 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-194-11.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:47:48 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-37.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:51:01 yew tawk fun-nee 15:25:47 -!- vasil_sd [~vasil_sd@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:02 cthuluh [moo@wxcvbn.org] has joined #scheme 15:29:42 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:34:14 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:34:49 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:13 wingo [~wingo@adsl-75-28-21-123.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:37:54 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 15:38:39 blue_feint [~glazkyano@cm89.delta26.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 15:39:10 -!- blue_feint [~glazkyano@cm89.delta26.maxonline.com.sg] has left #scheme 15:42:43 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-137-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43:20 "You talk funny, Nash. Where you from?" 15:47:49 "Lots of different places." 15:47:53 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 15:49:19 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:53:18 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:05 -!- stamourv [~user@ip212-238-61-56.hotspotsvankpn.com] has left #scheme 16:01:51 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 16:05:14 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:10:16 -!- wingo [~wingo@adsl-75-28-21-123.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:16:37 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:16:42 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 16:18:18 -!- samth [~samth@ip212-238-61-33.hotspotsvankpn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:25:40 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 16:26:31 ...none of em any good. 16:31:33 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 16:35:08 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:08 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:36:39 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 16:38:39 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:18 kar8nga [~kar8nga@j-18.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 16:48:08 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:04 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #scheme 17:03:49 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:15:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.95] has joined #scheme 17:20:44 wingo [~wingo@173.243.145.79] has joined #scheme 17:21:36 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:27:57 samth [~samth@ip212-238-61-33.hotspotsvankpn.com] has joined #scheme 17:44:49 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.86.139] has joined #scheme 17:49:09 jao [~user@83.50.71.238] has joined #scheme 18:00:18 -!- mmc [~michal@82.100.5.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:33 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:12:14 franki^, yes, that code needs some changes in order to run at all... 18:15:18 IJP [~Ian@host109-154-194-223.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:20:33 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@g227141096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:22:08 pygospa [~pygospa@g227141096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 18:24:18 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:26:53 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:27:33 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:56 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:36:15 what do people think of this Scheme/ML gumbo syntax? http://gist.github.com/561122 18:39:02 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:39:27 also, I may be confused by the wikipedia, but does properly tail recursive mean that in, (map f [] = [], map f (x:xs) = (f x) : (map f xs)), the inner call to map must be cps'ed to a tail call? 18:40:22 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 18:40:32 or can it only apply to calls that are actually written in tail position? (I think ocaml optimizes the former case but not the latter, though I may be mistaken) 18:43:20 that definition of map is not a tail call since : introduces an extra stack frame 18:43:27 The rough definition is that a system is properly tail-recursive iff there is no bound on the number of active tail calls. In this case, the only tail call is to (:). For a more detailed and precise definition, see Clinger's paper on proper tail recursion and space efficiency. 18:45:33 I could only get the abstract without paying 18:46:07 CPS conversion is a red herring: if your machine's memory is limited, then there is a limit to the number of continuations it can store (in this case, each continuation receives, say, a tail, and sends (f x) : tail to the next continuation, and thus must remember the next continuation, f, and x, or the next continuation and f x), whether the continuations be implicit or explicit. 18:46:49 Riastradh: well, my concern is just a hostile environment with a very small stack compared to memory 18:48:48 In that case, you may wish to convert the program yourself to store the reversed list in the heap (e.g., in closures, or as a reversed list), rather than on the stack, before reversing it. 18:50:15 Here is the paper, by the way: . 18:53:29 ah, thanks 18:54:18 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@g227141096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:54:26 I must say that #scheme is as edifying as #haskell is esoteric 18:55:08 pygospa [~pygospa@g227141096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 19:01:10 a virtue of both communities is that they are generally helpful and polite 19:01:18 any suggested resources on trampolining techniques? I read a paper not long ago (though cant seem to locate it now) that advocated a program -> one-huge-function-in-a-loop approach 19:01:39 and tend to limit their digital genitalia waving 19:01:55 Adamant: true, I hope my remark didn't sound derogatory 19:02:00 heh 19:02:04 it didn't 19:03:46 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 19:03:54 when a favorite joke in the Haskell community is "a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem?" and even skilled practitioners admit the need to look up all the different relevant morphisms, I think they have insight into that and can joke about it 19:04:01 lol! 19:04:32 :O 19:04:50 copumpkin: you know it's true :P 19:04:53 Adamant: you mean you need to look up the relevant morphisms? 19:04:55 tssk 19:04:59 Adamant-- 19:05:02 copumpkin: naw, Cale has a list 19:05:16 I don't consider myself a skilled practioner of Haskell 19:05:16 *copumpkin* has it all memorized 19:05:27 besides, the monoid object in the category of endofunctors is old 19:05:40 oh, what's the current one 19:05:53 well, you could make it a composition of adjoint functors 19:06:09 there's several nice views 19:06:18 what would it be in cofunctors? (since you are copumpkin) 19:06:24 lol 19:07:41 I refuse to believe you can't just slap the prefix "co-" on something from abstract algebra or cat theory and get something new and awesome (unless someone else has already done so) 19:07:44 :P 19:08:45 I don't think comonads are particularly awesome, and they're not very new any longer either. 19:08:59 minion: more newer 19:09:00 newer me harder 19:09:10 omg comonads!!1! 19:09:20 minion: more esotericer 19:09:21 esotericer me harder 19:09:34 minion: 19:09:48 chandler didn't raise no fool 19:10:39 I have had the experience of trying to rewrite a program in haskell, getting frustrated by the type system, then rewriting it in the original language in less lines of code and without errors 19:10:51 its like it 'revealed the coprogram', as it were 19:11:21 haskell isn't easy to pick up if you're used to other stuff, but it gets pretty natural after a while 19:11:51 so if you just tried off-hand to write something in it and failed, I'm not sure that's saying much about anything 19:14:22 too much Haskell, like any language with it's own strong sense of style (including the Lisps, Smalltalk, logic languages, and APL derivs), can be a problem if you need to switch to languages without those facilities for whatever reason, though. 19:14:24 probably nothing at all, in my limited experience the types became difficult to refactor during prototyping 19:14:48 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:38 ironically its still my favorite language for tinkering with SDL/OpenGL 19:16:27 a lot of it was just lack of practice in general, but trying to do functional-style programming in Python using a parser combinator while relearning Python, and readjusting to imperative/OO after extensive recent Haskell use was kinda painful. 19:18:01 femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-137-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 19:20:14 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 19:23:06 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@70-36-245-104.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 19:26:23 Totally off-topic: Does anyone here know whether there is a free software client for the Cisco AnyConnect VPN? 19:29:31 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:30:05 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:32:42 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 19:32:48 Riastradh: I dunno about the specifics, but I once used vpnc to connect to a Cisco VPN 19:33:09 Yes, I'm aware of that, but vpnc is for an earlier Cisco VPN. 19:33:31 Now Cisco has some TLS-based VPN, whereas vpnc talked with an IPsec-based VPN. 19:35:19 I think the older IPsec-based VPN was called `VPN 3000' and the newer TLS-based one is called `AnyConnect VPN', or something like that, but it's hard to find actual, useful, distinguishing information from Cisco's web site. 19:35:32 ah, well, you're way ahead of me. 19:36:18 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:20 I'm not sure whether to attribute this paucity of useful information to laziness or to malice on the part of Cisco to deliberately make alternative implementations complicated and hard to identify so that users will be inclined to stick to Cisco's software. 19:37:27 Probably a combination of both. 19:38:07 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 19:47:38 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 19:52:15 -!- luz [~davids@201.17.88.176] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 19:53:33 Very few things can be explained by laziness, incompetence, or malice individually. Usually things are the way they are because of laziness or incompetence combined with a real disincentive for doing better. 19:54:28 jimster [~jimster@jimster.org] has joined #scheme 19:55:56 -!- Delita [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:56:03 is there a function I can use to pass a parameter to a list of lambda functions? 19:56:20 A real, immediate, and individual disincentive, that is. Any benefit to Cisco from being more forthcoming with information or protocol documentation would be realized globally, but any punishment out for business lost in the sort term as a result of competitors implementing compatible solutions is likely to be delivered at the individual level. 19:58:17 I created my own and called it yppla, because it felt like the opposite of apply 19:58:41 ylppa? 19:58:55 that's apply backwards 19:58:58 chandler, anyway, I just wanted a free software client for a Cisco VPN, rather than a corporate psychoanalysis... 19:59:07 I didn't know what to call it :( 19:59:14 jimster, you mean like this? (map (lambda (procedure) (procedure argument)) procedures) 19:59:49 Riastradh: yes! I believe that will work 20:00:04 my yppla is not as nice as that 20:00:36 reverse of alppy? :) 20:00:39 heh sorry 20:00:47 I spelled it right in my code, I promise 20:00:51 lol 20:02:11 femtooo [~femto@95-89-248-137-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:05:44 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-137-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:35 Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:06:49 -!- lucca [~lucca@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:10:45 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 20:11:19 coi 20:16:52 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.86.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:50 Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has joined #scheme 20:19:05 pond? 20:19:06 -!- Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has left #scheme 20:19:24 "Pond?"? 20:19:32 ""Pond?"?"? 20:19:48 Random word association. `Coi' (`koi') -> `pond'. 20:19:50 Recursion: see recursion. 20:20:05 Yes, I typed it into one too many channels. It is the Lojban word for "greetings". 20:20:08 Also, gnomon, I believe you meant: `"\"Pond?\"?"?' 20:20:24 However, it is pronounced "shoi". 20:20:30 Riastradh, pfft; I trust my audience to disambigimigate from context. 20:21:25 Reminds me of my favourite fragment of shell script, necessary for certain metalinguistic abstraction: sed -e 's/'"'"'/'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'/g' 20:22:03 !g Lojban 20:23:32 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-42-106.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:23:35 c`<> atse se lauC? !nabjoL olbah oNi 20:24:50 It's an artificial language for human communication (mostly) with an LALR(1) grammar (mostly) founded on FOPL. 20:25:29 See http://lojban.org for details. 20:26:27 Riastradh: I am suspicious of strings containing 'atse' 20:27:28 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-150.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:27:36 Don't ever read Spanish backwards, then -- it contains lots of atse. Unless an accept makes it OK, in which case, don't read any Spanish backwards with accents stripped off to make it fit in US-ASCII. 20:27:55 FurnaceBoy, I am too. Funny how those conditioned reflexes kick in after a short while. 20:28:07 s/accept/accent/1 20:28:15 gnomon: :) 20:28:29 Riastradh: I rarely am called upon to read SPanish or Portuguese backwards, but good point. 20:28:52 Riastradh: and i definitely no hablo lojban 20:28:59 bgs100 [~ian@h85.174.17.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 20:29:00 Which A**E is it that's so upsetting. 20:29:03 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h85.174.17.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:29:03 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:29:03 ? 20:29:09 I only speak two languages, English and bad English! 20:29:24 That puts you one up on Henry Kissinger. 20:29:32 or 0.5 up 20:29:37 gnomon: omg atse is also included in permutations of Astley 20:29:39 -!- femtooo [~femto@95-89-248-137-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:29:41 *FurnaceBoy* rests my case 20:29:52 offby1, time to call the /me police. 20:30:06 jcowan, expand `atse' on either side, not as an acronym. 20:30:22 Riastradh: now if it had had an accent, it all would have been clear 20:30:42 jcowan, s/^/go/;s/$/.cx/ 20:31:07 Ah. 20:32:40 i can't believe you made him do that. 20:33:35 Who made whom do what when? 20:34:30 what next, a WEB PAGE LINK??!! 20:35:56 jcowan, any bursts of insight about yesterday's discussion on garbage collection? (See if you missed it.) 20:51:23 Read in progress. 20:51:34 Have I told the sad story of the Dartmouth dethrasher? 20:51:53 is that like Jack deripper? 20:52:21 It checked the system every second to see if it was thrashing, and if so, it picked a victim and logged him out, much like the OOM killer but for CPU, not for memory. 20:52:35 Unfortunately, logging out implied flushing buffers, updating accounting, etc. etc. 20:52:50 :) 20:52:51 Thus the next time the dethrasher ran, it would see that things were worse. So it picked another victim and .... 20:52:57 Until There Were None. 20:53:40 That sounds like a golden opportunity to redefine success. 20:54:25 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:58:26 Smalltalk indeed implemented object swapping, but the Berkeley Smalltalk team noticed that object swapping is more or less equivalent to copying objects from wired-down memory to pageable memory and vice versa. So they did that. 20:59:12 In those days, Smalltalk performance was still too crappy to run without wiring down memory, and BS ran best if it had a whole Vax to play with. 20:59:40 I love the dethrasher example. I am going to use that story very soon. 20:59:48 Fair warning has been given! 21:02:29 gnomon: file under 'unintended consequences', also 'testing' 21:02:43 gnomon: also 'permanent beta' hahahah 21:02:51 I may be wrong in attributing it to Dartmouth, however. 21:03:00 alliterative license 21:03:46 If someday it may happen that a victim must be found / I've got a little list / I've got a little list / Of society offenders who might well be underground / They never would be missed / They never would be missed 21:03:46 saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:04:32 "brain and cog three ten"? 21:05:13 jcowan, oh, stuff it, Sam. You'll be none too pleased in a few moments when you see that the American bald eagle is on that list. 21:06:21 -!- fowlduck [~fowlduck@2002:4547:f82e:0:fa1e:dfff:fed7:9dc1] has left #scheme 21:08:13 right next to 'fowl duck'... 21:08:14 gnomon: in the old days on Usenet I saw postings from @dec-vax-11-750.arpa. 21:08:17 > 21:09:01 Hey, I'm the list maintainer; I should know what's on it. 21:15:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:42 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:19:10 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-19-234-140.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:19:39 -!- samth [~samth@ip212-238-61-33.hotspotsvankpn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:21:43 alvatar [~alvatar@187.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 21:21:58 hi 21:22:44 Hi. 21:22:56 noobish question: how can I set! a variable that is passed to a procedure from *within* that procedure? 21:23:17 that variable is global or in the outer scope, for example 21:23:25 You can't, directly. Variables cannot be passed to procedures. 21:23:30 ok 21:23:32 you can pass a boxed variable 21:23:36 and set-box! it 21:23:37 hum... 21:23:40 Thus, Scheme *guarantees* that if (let ((x 0)) (f x) x) returns, then it yields 0. 21:23:46 and (parameterize) would work? 21:23:51 No, you can pass a box. There are no boxed variables, only boxed values. 21:23:56 you could do that too 21:24:07 ok 21:24:08 You could pass a data structure such as a box, rather than a variable; or you could pass a procedure that sets a variable. 21:24:11 ugly stuff, though 21:24:21 Example: (let ((x 0)) (f (lambda (x*) (set! x x*))) x) 21:24:24 you want something like a c-pointer right? 21:24:30 yep 21:24:43 i guess a box is your best bet 21:24:58 I want to make an (assq) procedure that changes the order of elements in the a-list 21:25:10 that can be a drop-in substitution for assq 21:25:24 why cant you just return a new list 21:25:45 because assq is expected to return the found element 21:26:09 oh you want to change elements and return the found element? 21:26:14 yes :) 21:26:24 Assuming your implementation has mutable pairs, you can reorder an input list destructively. 21:26:42 You can't do that in the general case unless you have a sentinel element at the top of the alist. 21:26:43 argh, no idea if Gambit has that 21:26:51 most likely it has mutable pairs 21:26:51 Yes, you can, jcowan. 21:26:54 It does. Racket is the exception here. 21:26:57 sentinel element? 21:27:13 -!- Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:27:16 You don't need a sentinel element, alvatar. 21:27:31 Oh, if you only reorder, then no, you don't. 21:27:37 and what's that by the way? (now I feel like I'm losing something) 21:27:44 s/losing/missing/ 21:28:07 It's basically an implementation strategy for a box. 21:28:10 You don't need it in this case. 21:28:14 A sentinel element is a useless element at the beginning that lets you have an extra pair in whose cdr the real alist is stored. That way, you can consistently replace a tail of the alist, including the whole alist itself, by a SET-CDR!. 21:28:14 ok, thanks 21:28:43 Quite. But if you just want to do reordering, you just shuffle the cars about. 21:29:06 For example, an in-place ALIST-INSERT! cannot take an arbitrary alist, because it can't modify the empty list. However, it could take a pair whose cdr is the alist, and whose car is a dummy element, and use SET-CDR! to perform the insertion. 21:29:31 then... it is possible without boxing or parameterizing? I'm getting lost :) 21:29:46 Sure. 21:30:03 is it like this: if I can implement it with set-cdr! then I can, if I need set! then I can't 21:30:04 In that case, the pair is a box whose value is stored in the cdr. You could use other box implementation techniques as well. 21:30:14 Let's say you want to bring the found element up to the top of the alist. Just swap the CAR of the found element with the CAR of the alist itself. 21:30:18 alvatar: You'll need `set-car!' and `set-cdr!' for this. 21:30:24 ok 21:30:31 I think I'm starting to get it :) 21:31:24 My implementation of JavaScript-style objects uses a sentinel not only for arbitrary inserts and deletes, but also to know the boundary between an object and its prototype while still being able to use assq to search it. 21:31:25 jcowan: actually, that's what I want to do at first 21:32:27 jcowan: is that implementation opensourced somewhere to take a look? 21:32:31 rudybot: eval (define splice-list! (lambda (to from) (cond ((and (null? to) (null? from)) #t) ((or (null? to) (null? from)) #f) (else (set-car! to (car from)) (splice-list! (cdr to) (cdr from)))))) 21:32:46 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 21:33:04 rudybot: eval (let ((l (make-list 5))) (splice-list! l (iota 5))) 21:33:04 chandler: error: procedure make-list: expects 2 arguments, given 1: 5 21:33:32 rudybot: eval (require srfi/1) 21:33:35 rudybot: eval (splice-list! 'frog 3.141592653589793) 21:33:39 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 21:33:39 Riastradh: error: reference to undefined identifier: splice-list! 21:33:50 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:34:03 Riastradh: I was going to point out that this implementation shouldn't *actually* be used; it's just a quick and dirty demonstration. 21:34:10 rudybot: eval (let ((l (make-list 5))) (splice-list! l (iota 5))) 21:34:10 chandler: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: set-car! in module: 'program 21:34:19 Oh, right. This is the Racket dialect. 21:34:24 alvatar: http://groups.google.com/group/chibi-scheme/browse_thread/thread/624483e9b9c46045# (license is BSD) 21:34:24 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2erdp7u 21:34:43 *chandler* gives up rather than spam the channel while getting this example to work. 21:34:43 thanks jcowan ! 21:34:59 It does way nmore than you need, and doesn't auto-reorder anything. 21:35:03 Also it may have bugs. 21:35:19 thanks for the code chandler! 21:35:38 ok, I'll try to make this work now 21:35:45 thanks a lot everybody for your help 21:36:20 alvatar: Don't actually use that. It's just a quick and dirty example, and it needs more input validation (as Riastradh pointed out). 21:36:55 ah sure, just as a concept :) 21:37:04 NULL? doesn't tell you whether you can use CAR or CDR on the object; PAIR? does. 21:37:56 -!- cthuluh [moo@wxcvbn.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:38:30 cthuluh [moo@wxcvbn.org] has joined #scheme 21:39:25 If I were writing this in Racket (assuming this could be written in Racket), I'd enforce the proper list-ness of the arguments in a contract, which is why I didn't think to use `pair?' there. 21:39:30 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:41:37 Not too many Schemes seem to support ATOM?. 21:41:59 What would the point be? 21:42:27 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:42:57 It's a convenience function, like ENDP. 21:43:46 *jcowan* used to be a good boy and use ENDP all the time, but then started playing with his Schemes and became a bad boy. 21:44:29 I never used ENDP. 21:44:33 ENDP has a precise definition (pair => false, nil => true, anything else => error). ATOM? doesn't have a precise definition -- you'll get a different answer for what makes an object `atomic' depending on whom you ask. 21:44:46 Rather, not `precise', but `standard'. 21:44:56 I take ATOM? to mean NOT . PAIR?, as in CL. 21:45:06 SRFI 1 has NULL-LIST?, the analogue to ENDP. 21:45:12 (or PAIR? . NOT if you are a modernist) 21:45:12 OK, so why call it ATOM?, then, and not, say, NOT-PAIR? ? 21:45:27 Why call it CAR and not LEFT-ELEMENT? 21:45:50 Nobody has different meanings for `car' and `cdr'. 21:45:55 minion: chant 21:45:55 MORE TRADITION 21:46:10 minion is fighting a losing battle with the modern world. 21:46:11 Spookily accurate, as usual. 21:46:26 Fair enough. But who uses any other definition of ATOM nowadays? 21:46:27 Sorry, gnomon, but the system is gamed. 21:46:27 minion: chant 21:46:27 MORE SPOOKY 21:46:33 minion console yourself http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/node2.html 21:46:47 I like meat. 21:46:51 minion: chant 21:46:51 MORE SPOOKY 21:46:51 gamed???? 21:47:08 minion: chant 21:47:08 MORE GAMING 21:47:17 Anyway... 21:47:21 gnomon: That's "gamey", not "gamed". minion isn't very gamey at all. 21:48:23 Well, it's false that all conversations degenerate into bot abuse, though this one did. 21:49:23 there are those among us who would turn minion into prosciutto. 21:49:43 In a (rare) fit of insomnia last night, after I had been puzzling my way through Reynolds, I got the idea of writing an actual two-phase implementation of Algol (or some imperative call-by-name language, anyhow) that actually used a pair of coroutines, one to interpret the functional level and spit out a quasi-infinite set of commands to the second one, which did all the imperative stuff. But I was too brain-fogged to actually see h 21:49:43 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@j-18.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:54 ow? 21:50:08 Ow, indeed. 21:50:11 :) 21:50:17 But the idea still intrigues me. 21:50:17 you just got truncated in a sensitive place. 21:50:18 To actually see where the IRC server truncates your message? 21:50:46 I have no clue using this client, alas. 21:51:11 Nobody has any clue using any client, because the IRC protocol leaves it up to the server with no hint to the sending client! 21:51:15 needs a mechanical BELL 21:51:19 like a typewriter 21:51:29 to remind you to return the carriage 21:51:54 XChat seems to split overlong messages reliably, at least for this network; but here at work I have to use webchat.freenode.net. 21:52:01 Riastradh: 140 characters should be enough for any man 21:52:13 640K should be enough for any computer, too. 21:52:23 1MHz ftw 21:52:36 So where was it in fact truncated? 21:52:45 Right before "ow". 21:52:47 About where I started poking fun at you. 21:52:51 chandler: hahaha 21:52:53 `to actually see h' 21:53:01 "how it might work" 21:53:19 jcowan: XChat is, I believe, using a maximum message length that's determined heuristically. I'm using an irssi script that does the same sort of thing. 21:53:25 *jcowan* nods. 21:54:02 The heuristic is a good idea, because not using it tends to generate frequent discussions about the brain-damaged nature of the IRC protocol. 21:54:04 I did see that the front-end interpreter could be partially specialized to provide a compiled program that talked to the back-end interpreter. 21:58:15 It's rather like Lisp macros, except that the macroexpander can generate potentially infinite amounts of output. 21:58:45 Thus all procedure calls in Algol 60 are really macros. 22:02:26 Unfortunately, Reynolds mixes all this up with large amounts of static typing goop, which to my mind just complicate things. And he uses "type" for static type and "data type" for dynamic type (Algol has more static types than it has dynamic types). 22:04:55 To answer the off-topic question I asked earlier: it turns out that there is a free software client for Cisco's AnyConnect VPN, at . 22:16:40 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:07 IJP_ [~Ian@host109-154-196-197.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:20:47 -!- IJP [~Ian@host109-154-194-223.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:22:04 How should one best expose a content-free singleton object in Scheme? 1) As a variable, and anyone who cabbages it deserves to lose; 2) As a procedure returning it; 3) As a predicate only. 22:22:47 The last is cleanest, but has the disadvantage that you have no way to pass the object to the API, only to detect it when the API passes it to you. 22:22:51 -!- IJP_ [~Ian@host109-154-196-197.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:23:06 IJP [~Ian@host109-154-196-205.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:23:47 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@187.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:23:49 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:02 -!- IJP [~Ian@host109-154-196-205.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:31 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adafe9d.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:36 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@g227141096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:40:24 pygospa [~pygospa@g229210199.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:43:47 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:56:29 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-19-234-140.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: [TalkSoup] Get it today: http://talksoup.aeruder.net] 22:57:35 -!- jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has left #scheme 23:02:38 -!- kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:11:13 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:28 rbarraud [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has joined #scheme 23:15:27 kniu [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:16:49 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-20-82-64-4-34.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:20:35 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-171-227.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 23:31:43 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Quit: felipe] 23:39:08 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #scheme 23:42:18 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:43:31 -!- mbishop [~mbishop@adsl-157-34-242.msy.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 23:43:53 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:48:19 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.208] has joined #scheme 23:48:49 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:22 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 23:52:23 schmir [~schmir@p54A91A52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:52:28 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@198-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:56:17 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:56:17 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]