00:00:05 big question ;) 00:05:14 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.31] has joined #scheme 00:06:57 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-191-215.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:21:36 klovett [~klovett@adsl-69-226-233-57.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:28:01 -!- Perseus [~kvirc@dualxdrive.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 00:28:41 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-191-215.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:29:26 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:29:44 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:30:05 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:37:38 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:41:14 rbarraud [~rbarraud@121.90.214.46] has joined #scheme 00:58:02 ros3 [~roselynro@208.66.28.159] has joined #scheme 00:59:25 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:03:04 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:04:02 -!- jao [~jao@173.243.145.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:09:28 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@g229209009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:10:24 everyone asserts that binary search tree T can be transformed into any T' (and back) by a series of rotations; how would you prove such a conjecture, though? 01:11:07 pygospa [~pygospa@g230096228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 01:11:10 if only there were a trivial contradiction such that, e.g., any T and T' for which there is no such transformation cannot be BSTs; maybe i'll try an induction instead. 01:13:12 oh, here we go: 01:13:26 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:14:18 transform T into a right-going chain by right-rotating all of its left children with no more that n - 1 rotations; do the same for T' in n - 1 = O(2n - 2) = O(n). 01:14:21 voila! 01:14:26 thanks. 01:19:02 Guest2330 [~jao@cpe-76-166-198-241.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:21:01 -!- Guest2330 [~jao@cpe-76-166-198-241.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:20 Guest2330 [~jao@cpe-76-166-198-241.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:24:18 -!- Guest2330 is now known as jao 01:27:41 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@96-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:29:39 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:30:25 kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:32:20 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@121.90.214.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:46:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-154-37.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:47:24 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-154-37.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:51:19 -!- 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[~user@adsl-99-138-86-46.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:37 ros3 [~roselynro@208.66.28.159] has joined #scheme 02:44:24 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:15 -!- owned [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: owned] 02:54:47 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-191-215.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:10:25 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-191-215.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:45 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-191-215.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:27:33 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-191-215.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:27:39 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-191-215.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:29:35 mwa haha 03:29:49 wrote a let-values macro w/ the low-level macro system 03:31:01 sweet, it even works w/ multiple lists of them 03:31:19 oh, actually it should be called let*-values, hm 03:31:26 cause that's how my macro works 03:31:39 now do it with a hygienic macro system 03:31:44 :P 03:32:44 i guess let-values would build up lambdas and then collect them all in one scope with a let 03:33:28 what's the point though 03:33:33 avoid shadowing maybe? 03:33:50 could always use a different name tho 03:34:34 i was kind of confused about writing this macro at first, but it's just like any other recursive function 03:34:46 far shorter than i thought it would be 03:34:47 `let*-values' would also express a sequencing order that `let-values' would not 03:36:41 jao [~jao@cpe-76-166-198-241.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:36:45 *ski* is not sure how to delegate that choice of ordering in the definition of `let-values' to the Scheme implementation, though 03:37:08 (or rather, lack of any definite choice) 03:37:08 i'm not too sure either 03:37:53 i guess i could expand the srfi-11 implementation and look at the results 03:37:54 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-191-215.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:38:13 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-191-215.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:38:32 ironically, my macro for expanding macros has been one of the most useful ones :P 03:39:05 gambit also has pp which is pretty useful for that 03:44:07 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-191-215.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:46:23 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:47:20 -!- jao [~jao@cpe-76-166-198-241.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:52:59 hm, this is what the reference srfi-11 does 03:53:09 (expand (let-values (((x) 1)) (println x))) 03:53:09 (call-with-values (lambda () 1) (lambda (2#x) (let ((3#x 2#x)) (println 3#x)))) 03:56:55 ha, I didn't know gambit had PRINTLN :) 03:57:00 haha yea 03:57:23 and chicken has PRINT but it's like gambit's PRINTLN 03:57:29 :P 03:59:34 jao [~jao@cpe-76-166-198-241.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:04:27 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:13:14 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-49-233.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:15:29 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-49-233.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 04:19:17 kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:24:18 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:24:34 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:25:16 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 04:25:44 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:31:44 nicktick [~nicktick@unaffiliated/nicktick] has joined #scheme 04:33:06 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:34:35 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:02 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:13 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:38:47 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 04:41:57 easy4 [~easy4@c-174-60-36-128.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:42:10 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:47:43 sweet, figured out let-values 04:47:58 funny that it's actually longer than let*-values 04:48:48 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 04:48:51 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:50:12 hm... 04:50:55 would copying the way someone generates code count as copyright infringement? 04:51:03 thing is, i didn't look at their code at all 04:51:17 only the generated code and figured out my own way to generate something similar 04:51:48 Hum 04:52:06 One of those puzzling things about Scheme :P 04:52:08 The generator should not violate anything. 04:52:17 Yea that's what I thought 04:52:20 Even though the generated code can. 04:52:24 Hm 04:53:11 I think I might keep writing a bunch of these macros, just for practice 04:53:29 it's extremely fun haha 04:54:19 i know there is a lisp equivalent to the LGPL 04:54:20 You may have to prove, still, that you did not copy *their* generator. 04:54:24 maybe that would give me some ideas 04:54:37 well my doesn't even use the same macro system 04:54:44 so that would make it pretty clear 04:55:20 have a quick look at http://opensource.franz.com/preamble.html 04:55:57 thanks, i tihnk that's what i was looking for 05:02:48 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:03:09 -!- klovett [~klovett@adsl-69-226-233-57.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #scheme 05:06:29 OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:23:21 -!- FurnaceBoy [~FurnaceBo@ns2.smartgames.ca] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 05:29:43 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:31:28 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:36:41 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:40:18 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 05:44:22 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-132.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:46:24 -!- nicktick [~nicktick@unaffiliated/nicktick] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:13:53 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:15:33 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-132.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:16:25 a generator code should not generate "copyright" 06:17:17 because it's not copy of who has the original, xD 06:24:16 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-27-142.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined 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joined #scheme 15:16:06 klovett [~klovett@adsl-69-226-233-57.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 15:26:09 -!- nego[afk] is now known as nego 15:29:00 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-154.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:29:56 -!- moell [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: "If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program. The rest of them will write Perl programs."] 15:33:56 choas [~lars@p5792C12F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:34:13 dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-154.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:42:28 jao [~jao@cpe-76-166-198-241.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:54:20 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:54:36 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 16:01:43 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:14:53 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 16:18:19 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 16:18:33 -!- Mr-Cat [c31aa706@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.26.167.6] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:22:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:22:47 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 16:32:56 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:33:05 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:44 owned [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:43:36 tonyg [~tonyg@navarone.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:43:40 -!- tonyg [~tonyg@navarone.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:43:57 tonyg [~tonyg@navarone.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:45:12 -!- owned [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:35 it isn't possible to know types at macro expansion, right? 16:46:16 in typed-scheme ? 16:46:22 for example, identifying that the symbol provided for the first argument of the macro is type integer 16:46:29 normal scheme? 16:46:51 in racket you can say (number? (syntax-e #'x)) 16:47:03 hm alright 16:47:12 but thats only if the source program contained a number there 16:47:18 right 16:47:20 if you do (let ([x 1]) (foo x)) then it wont work 16:47:23 jyaan: you may be able to check that the actual literal syntax that the user wrote is a literal number, but you won't be able to check the types of variables 16:47:26 without a lot of work anyway 16:47:33 k that's what i thought 16:48:41 makes sense, since types are checked at run time 16:50:29 -!- OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:57:12 -!- karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:08 IJP [~Ian@host109-154-200-199.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:10:03 *alaricsp* shivers. "the symbol [...] is type integer"? 17:10:13 What you want is a type inferencer, jyaan! 17:10:19 exactyl 17:10:35 that's the feature i wish scheme had the most 17:11:02 tho ofc that would make implementing a lot more complicated 17:11:15 But, symbols are of type symbol... be careful with your terminology, or you'll trip yourself up! The symbols that are macro arguments are bound, in the context of each macro invocation, to [syntax objects encapsulating] the s-expression found there 17:11:17 Which may be a number 17:11:24 Or an expression that evaluates to a number 17:11:28 Or something else... 17:11:37 yea i know 17:11:45 Type inferencers for Scheme have been done, I've never sampled the delights of one though 17:11:55 AIUI it's not a vastly challenging problem 17:11:55 i meant the type of the evaluated symbol 17:12:10 See, macro arguments needn't be expressions anyway 17:12:21 What's the first argument of let? It's a list of lists, each of which binds a name to an expression... 17:12:31 yea 17:12:32 Treating a macro argument as an expression is but one thing that can be done with it 17:12:50 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 17:12:51 But what you want is a way of asking what type would be assigned to a syntax object (as an expression) 17:12:54 That's a valid thing to ask for 17:12:59 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:04 And a type inferencer should be able to tell you it 17:13:07 And it'd be potentially very useful! 17:13:12 right 17:13:20 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 17:13:33 type inference can help a lot w/ performance too 17:13:37 Common Lisp encourages implementations to do some level of type analysis 17:13:44 For performance and for compile-time error detection 17:13:46 actually, scheme as it is, is pretty fast 17:14:01 Yeah, much work has been done on efficient implementation of dynamic dispatch! 17:14:05 probably the compilers do things under the scenes like that 17:14:10 yea 17:14:19 Type inference is a good trick, though 17:14:19 Static type inference wouldn't be possible 17:14:33 Quadrescence: Ah, it can't be done *completely*, but it can be done *partially* 17:14:40 Can it? 17:14:50 I mean, the type of "1" can be statically deduced, for a start 17:14:51 Procedures can be modified at run-time 17:15:01 if you have an integer literal then ofc you can figure out the type 17:15:21 Now, you run into some issues with the "mutable top-level bindings" stuff, but that's generall avoided by putting restrictions on that for inling purposes anyway, as R5RS lets the results of mutating + etc. be implementation dependent 17:15:27 Yes, of course, but what does that matter when you're unsure of the semantics of the operators? 17:15:38 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:15:48 Given that, an implementation may mandate that the type of (+ ...) will be a number, too. 17:15:55 Wouln't it be more correct to say that identifiers can be rebound, rather than procedures can be modified? 17:15:55 (And maybe even work out if it's exact, integer, etc...) 17:16:21 unless we're talking about modifying closed-over variables, I guess 17:17:37 Also, an implementation can, within a compilation unit, note which symbols are never set!-ed 17:17:42 And thus know they're immutable 17:17:51 And thus know that whever they're defined as can be "inlined" when they're used 17:18:16 So (define (double x) (+ x x)) can be typed as -> , and then (double 27) typed as 17:18:18 And so on 17:18:34 Calls to random functions from elsewhere will be untypable, obviously 17:18:46 And so a lot of unknown-contagion will occur 17:18:55 And some functions can't be typed (recursive ones can be a particular pain) 17:19:04 But if you can deduce SOME types, you can get SOME benefit 17:19:26 Whether the benefit is worth the implementation effort is another matter entirely, and one I'd rather somebody who has some actual experience takes over and answers ;-) 17:19:54 Quadrescence: there's your cue! 17:20:18 I think this is just a rather restricted optimization. Type inference is good when you go the full mile. 17:21:13 ros3 [~roselynro@208.66.28.159] has joined #scheme 17:21:43 One can communicate information between compilation units for whole-program analysis 17:21:45 But now we are going to be imposing immutability rules, not allowing symbols to be extended, refined, etc. And this really goes against what I'd say is what lisps are sort of all about. Can a compiler make some simple deductions about things at compile-time? Sure, why not, most compiler writers will do this anyway 17:22:06 Quadrescence: Some implementations impose immutability rules anyway, for inlining purposes 17:22:11 Inlining +/-/etc is fairly popular 17:22:39 And I've heard that some force a rule that you can't set! bindings imported from other modules (the module needs to export an explicit setter for that) so that mutability analysis can be done per-compilation-unit 17:22:55 I don't know which do what, off the top of my head 17:23:12 Why not just write a type inferencer in scheme itself, and make a "typed-define" and whatever 17:23:16 But the horse has bolted on THAT front 17:23:39 There's "typed scheme", but I've never looked into how it works 17:23:45 bigloo does type annotations 17:23:51 but i don't know anything about it 17:24:05 alaricsp: R6RS, and you can't export an identifier that can be mutated directly either 17:24:06 Hmmm, Typed Scheme is a PLT dialect, it appears 17:24:09 jyaan: They're akin to C type decls 17:24:17 alaricsp: yes, it is a restricted subset of scheme 17:25:20 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@208.66.28.159] has quit [Client Quit] 17:31:41 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36:05 HG` [~HG@85.8.72.229] has joined #scheme 17:38:32 pavelludiq [~user@83.222.175.142] has joined #scheme 17:39:16 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:42 ros3 [~roselynro@208.66.28.159] has joined #scheme 17:41:07 -!- jao [~jao@cpe-76-166-198-241.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:46:55 -!- Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:49:03 jao [~jao@173.243.145.79] has joined #scheme 17:49:09 Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 17:59:02 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:59:16 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 17:59:18 -!- jensn [~ceres@c-83-233-158-96.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:59:53 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.72.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:03:58 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:04:04 Quadrescence, i wouldn't describe it as a subset 18:04:32 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:17 neither would I but it was the first word to come to mind 18:05:44 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:07:16 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:17:35 githogori [~githogori@83.sub-75-208-34.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 18:18:07 I'd say it's a statically-checked dialect of Racket 18:22:17 what is "at" 18:22:24 i've seen it a few times in macros 18:24:23 why did chicken get rid of define-macro anywasy 18:24:29 seems kind of silly to just take it out 18:24:50 i definitely want both types of macros 18:24:56 jyaan: define-macro is fundamentally broken 18:25:06 Note that it still has low-level macros 18:25:32 theirs is, or do you mean becasue of the gensym stuff 18:25:59 lack of hygiene 18:26:18 lack of hygiene 18:26:45 hey i showered in Spring, get off my case 18:26:46 i tihnk it's still useful though 18:26:49 heh 18:26:52 gensym is not a problem, but the fact that there's no way to avoid globals being locally captured at the call site is 18:26:58 yea 18:27:07 er-macros are no different than define-macro, really 18:27:19 Just slightly different API 18:27:43 does chicken have renaming macros 18:27:47 yes 18:27:48 built in 18:28:05 yea i found a page about it 18:28:25 hm interesting 18:28:46 i've been thinking of moving over to chicken 18:29:03 don't think, do! 18:29:10 i wonder how well it would work in a multithreaded environment though 18:29:22 Probably not well 18:29:25 i'd like to have scheme in a separate thread 18:29:39 yea that's a bit of a problem :( 18:29:42 jensn [~ceres@c-83-233-158-96.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #scheme 18:29:50 i do a sort of actor model thing 18:30:04 Chicken has threads though 18:30:28 so multiple threads wouldn't be calling scheme 18:30:44 scheme just needs to be able to run in another thread 18:31:08 I think that may be possible though. Joerg said he got something like that working for firing off sqlite queries in the background and handing the results back to Scheme 18:31:28 it might work out then 18:31:47 most of my scheme code is already r5rs so it wouldn't be much work to move over 18:32:39 main thing is the C ffis 18:32:41 -!- choas [~lars@p5792C12F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:33:01 what's nice about gambit is i can compile it with C++ so i don't need to extern "C" or anything 18:33:18 minor though 18:33:45 Chicken has that in chicken.h too 18:33:51 Quadrescence, in Scheme, you are not allowed to assign the built-in bindings. In every Scheme with a reasonable module system, the same applies to the bindings exported by a module, at least when the assignment happens outside the module. 18:34:29 The reason is that it is hard for anyone, human or machine, to understand what a program does if there is no particular meaning to the names. 18:36:09 If the lexical environment says that the name + has its standard binding, then you can be reasonably sure that it will add a set of numbers together, and that you don't have to worry whether it may modify the vector you're trying to handle nearby in the program. 18:37:32 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 18:38:55 This is not a matter of a restricted, obscure compiler optimization that makes some programs inch along slightly faster; this is a matter of being able to write, understand, reason about, and execute programs practically. 18:40:21 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:45:59 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:53:26 femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 18:55:43 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #scheme 18:58:14 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:04:22 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-154-37.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:05:02 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@208.66.28.159] has quit [Quit: ros3] 19:14:39 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 19:15:24 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:18:11 ros3 [~roselynro@208.66.28.159] has joined #scheme 19:23:01 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has left #scheme 19:26:23 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-132.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:28:54 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-154-37.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 19:32:47 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-232-86.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:32:58 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-232-86.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:41:33 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:41:51 gnomon_ [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 19:43:07 -!- githogori [~githogori@83.sub-75-208-34.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:44:26 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:47:01 -!- Guest11352 [~m@p54A1AAED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:51:35 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@208.66.28.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:51:39 ros3 [~roselynro@208.66.28.159] has joined #scheme 19:52:32 Hmm...Larceny appears not to have any weak references. 19:54:03 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@208.66.28.159] has quit [Client Quit] 19:55:40 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:56:46 schmir` [~schmir@p54A90BA7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:58:36 saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:01:33 exactly, that's why i think there should be some notion of "constant" 20:01:43 or immutable, however you want to call it 20:01:58 immutable binding, i mean 20:02:22 doing a set! on + is just silly 20:02:56 Silliness is the last refuge of the doomed 20:03:02 heh 20:03:21 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 20:03:49 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:52 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:57 -!- schmir` is now known as schmir 20:04:40 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:04:46 karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 20:04:48 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping 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[~githogori@180.sub-75-210-15.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 20:44:34 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:45:03 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.69.82] has quit [Quit: adu] 20:45:23 -!- karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:39 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90BA7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:19 schmir [~schmir@p54A90BA7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:57:31 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 21:00:29 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:04:49 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 21:08:10 ejs [~eugen@92-49-213-218.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 21:18:27 well, i got chicken embedded in a basic way 21:18:32 not sure if i like it better or not 21:19:21 :) 21:19:49 i made a test branch and added in an option to use chicken instead 21:20:59 the chicken compiler is certainly more pleasurable to work with 21:21:23 still has a couple quirks, but it offers command line options for the behavior so it's fine 21:21:35 for gambit I actually wrote a wrapper around it to make it behave more nicely lol 21:22:03 cause it would insist on always generating the C source files in the same directory as the scheme sources, very annoying 21:22:14 and wouldn't accept C++ extensions 21:22:26 like .cpp .cxx or anything, only .c 21:24:33 i think probably the main benefit for chicken would be real environments 21:24:49 gambit basically just fakes it, and that makes sandboxing kind of tricky 21:26:23 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:26:41 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 21:26:53 jyaan: Have you looked at the `sandbox' egg? 21:27:10 oh nice 21:27:22 eggref/3 means version 3 though? 21:27:42 Yes, there's a version for Chicken 4 as well. 21:27:45 http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/sandbox 21:27:55 oh ok 21:28:48 that's nice, makes it a lot easier for me if we want to let users contribute mods 21:29:22 -!- jesusito [~user@193.pool85-49-235.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:29:30 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:06 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:33:08 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:54 Has anybody tried Cluck for Emacs? 21:35:18 I just found it & I'm starting to set it up 21:35:29 -!- jyaan [~jyaan@c-98-250-102-194.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #scheme 21:35:34 jyaan [~jyaan@c-98-250-102-194.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:37:26 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 21:39:58 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90BA7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:40:36 I think cluck's some way outdated crap, isn't it? 21:41:44 no idea 21:42:05 Where did you find it? 21:42:08 are there any problems w/ chicken on mingw 21:42:12 heh! 21:42:22 Windows.. 21:42:24 chicken.wiki.br/emacs 21:42:40 i know it sucks 21:42:51 i wish that ppl would just drop windows already 21:42:54 chicken.wiki.br.... 21:43:18 Time to ask mario 21:43:45 wiki.call-cc.org/emacs has the same page 21:43:52 yes 21:44:32 apparently the last update to cluck was 2009 21:44:41 Indeed, outdated! 21:44:41 either that or it was put in github then 21:44:53 *sjamaan* doesn't know a single Cluck user 21:45:13 i basically just want slime for scheme 21:45:23 but then.. who doesn't haha 21:45:48 I generally just use cmuscheme + paredit 21:45:54 -!- pavelludiq [~user@83.222.175.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:02 Hopefully if things go well, no one will be using windows at all in a few years 21:46:12 They said that 10 years ago 21:46:20 Basically all hackers are using Linux or Mac these days 21:46:27 Yea lol 21:46:42 I just find it really annoying to have to develop for something I don't care about 21:46:58 Usually all the weird cases are related to Windows 21:47:16 hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5BC32.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:47:50 I guess I'll try compiling Chicken on Windows and see what happens tho 21:48:15 This will probably be the thing to hold me back I bet 21:48:16 If you have problems, try the ML 21:48:26 ML? 21:48:27 Nobody in #chicken is on Windows AFAIK 21:48:30 Mailing List 21:48:33 Oh 21:49:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:35 Bleh 21:51:47 sysexits.h doesn't exist 21:54:09 What now? 21:54:26 missing header, i'll try on vista later 21:54:27 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:54:49 my windows 7 stuff isn't really complete 21:55:05 i was going to copy over the devkit i made but i haven't got around to it yet 21:55:28 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:55:32 and it's on vista, which is on another hard drive on my linux box 21:55:47 but i don't like logging out of linux to go into windows so it's been put off for a while lol 22:01:15 well i just installed quack instead 22:01:16 seems OK 22:01:31 and i've got scheme-complete to go with that 22:01:39 i think i can be happy enough with those 2 22:01:45 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:02:19 aw, scheme-complete doesn't work in the gambit repl 22:05:15 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:18:25 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adafe9d.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 22:21:38 -!- ejs [~eugen@92-49-213-218.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:22:13 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-169-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 22:23:08 anyone know of a pseudocode-mode in emacs, by the way? google not my friend, etc. 22:23:39 if not, maybe it's time to formalize a sufficiently light-weight one; currently using unordered lists in org-mode to express indentation, etc. 22:25:30 what would a pseudocode-mode be for? 22:26:30 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 22:26:45 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:27:15 samth: for jotting down algorithms, etc. without troubling myself with rigorous syntax 22:27:41 might have support for basic control structures, indentation 22:28:11 but how would the mode know the syntax? 22:28:16 i'd like it to be inspired, ideally, by CLRS' pseudocode 22:28:32 samth: one would have to formalize an informal pseudocode, of course ;) 22:28:40 it's an oxymoron, of course 22:29:23 on the other hand, one might make the case that SEXPs are the best form of pseudocode 22:29:34 whys that 22:29:35 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:40 you have structural editing a la paredit, for one thing 22:30:12 it's close to the parse tree 22:30:42 how is a parse tree close to an algorithm 22:32:30 oh, it's not; but if you're endeavoring to formalize an informal language, what are the chances that you'll incorporate some ambiguity or other? 22:33:49 q.v. the classic dangling else 22:35:14 in other words, do SEXPs help one become both informal and unambiguous (if such a thing is possible)? 22:35:44 the answer is possibly, "no". 22:39:52 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5BC32.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:16 occasionally, though, i'd like to code at the speed of thought; even if thinking is usually the limiting reagent. during such moments of ecstatic inspiration, syntax (even SEXPs) is an irritating formality. 22:41:26 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-169-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 22:45:00 devil's advocate here, that's when i reach for a pencil 22:46:00 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-169-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:49:28 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 22:49:55 alexand3r [~alexander@polaris.andern.org] has joined #scheme 22:49:57 yoh 22:50:37 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:51:14 anyone worked with Ikarus at all? 22:52:23 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 22:54:43 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-232-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:54:55 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-232-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:55:09 FurnaceBoy: exactly; but when solving a difficult problem, i tend to produce pages and pages of scratch which might be useful later on for reconstructing my frame of mind. 22:55:28 those things usually go in the garbage; and i'm left with some solution that has an uncertain pedigree. 22:55:55 hey, it was good enough for Moses *ducks* 22:56:00 Get a scanner :) 22:56:20 IJP: good idea; that's the premise of evernote, apparently. maybe i should check it out. 22:56:32 yes evernote was kind of interesting. 22:56:41 FurnaceBoy: heh; you mean when he dropped the one tablet and we ended up with 10 not 15 commandments? 22:56:44 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-169-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:47 klutometis: lol 22:56:50 20, I think. 22:56:52 klutometis: he needed version control 22:57:02 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-169-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 22:57:12 klutometis: redundant array of inexpensive tablets 22:58:13 jcowan: not according to the gospel of brooks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAtRCJIqnk 22:58:43 if we can't keep 10, what's the point of 20... 22:59:08 I was referring to the Shel Silverstein cartoon, where Moses chisels off the other half of the tablet because it's too heavy. 22:59:23 jcowan: ha 23:00:01 it's nice to see that archiving and preservation policy hasn't changed in N x 1,000 years 23:00:29 FurnaceBoy: i guess back in those days we used had a brute-force VCS consisting of hundreds of poor scribes. 23:00:35 klutometis: indeed, exactly so. 23:00:53 And then occasionally the tablet-house would burn down, thus baking the tablets to last forever. 23:00:54 too bad the library of alexandria wasn't RAID 1, though. 23:00:55 klutometis: oral broadcast 23:01:19 klutometis: redundant arrays of overworked scribes, indeed 23:01:28 fod [~fod@92.251.255.7.threembb.ie] has joined #scheme 23:01:44 FurnaceBoy: heh; that's not a bad method of propagation, actually. orality would be a nice O(n^2), i think, if it weren't such a lossy mechanism. 23:01:51 klutometis: it worked well, yes. 23:03:56 jcowan: too bad i can't find that silverstein piece on the intarwebs. 23:04:54 hypercube32 [~hypercube@14.154.202.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:06:44 I have it at home (a reprint, not an original Dec 1982 Playboy) 23:13:02 ah, charlotte kemp 23:29:56 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:34:19 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:40:52 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.127] has joined #scheme 23:52:02 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme