00:18:11 _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 00:29:39 mmc [~michal@109.112.203.218] has joined #scheme 00:30:52 -!- _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:36:39 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37:10 xissburg [~chatzilla@187.3.135.61] has joined #scheme 00:37:44 help 00:37:55 is it possible to run termite + gambit in Windows? 00:38:16 Gambit runs but I can't get Termite to do 00:45:25 Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:48:25 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:53:23 paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #scheme 00:53:24 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:14 -!- foof` is now known as foof 00:58:07 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:22 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:09:02 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:12:35 -!- fod [~fod@92.251.255.5.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:18 devslashnull [~james@220-253-98-252.TAS.netspace.net.au] has joined #scheme 01:15:58 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 01:20:50 hohoho [~hohoho@airh128008041.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:22:41 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:27:28 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@airh128008041.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:31:52 jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:36:49 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:36:53 mornin' 01:37:50 jcowan: that bug doesn't look hard, should be able to fix it this weekend 01:38:48 Excellent. 01:41:05 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@7-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:43:42 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:47 I think it's the only serious impediment to Cygwin support, and then you can add my patches. 01:49:38 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@wsip-70-184-159-102.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 01:50:22 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:53:52 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:57:05 -!- Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:04:15 I'll add a separate dist-clean target to delete the *.stub files. 02:04:34 errr, I mean the .c files they generate 02:04:55 Okay. I'm not quite sure why you have cleaner instead of dist-clean anyway. 02:05:39 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:05:41 The bug made genstubs go wild, generating code for routines named 0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_whatever. 02:05:47 s/made/makes 02:08:35 bokr [~eduska@85.26.241.207] has joined #scheme 02:10:55 jcowan_ [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:11:24 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:11:29 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 02:21:16 yeah, I usually just touch genstubs.scm when I want to regenerate the files 02:22:06 *jcowan* nods. 02:23:39 -!- xissburg [~chatzilla@187.3.135.61] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 02:37:22 jao [~user@83.50.71.238] has joined #scheme 02:38:40 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:51:35 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 02:52:50 timj__ [~timj@e176192068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:04 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176193003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:56:09 -!- curi [~curi@h215.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:02:18 Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:05:16 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:06:35 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 03:11:25 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 03:12:32 Riastradh pasted "this is pretty silly" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/113486 03:17:28 -!- hosh_office [~hosh@c-71-204-27-0.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:20:10 -!- Intensity [mKYtzqDEJV@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:20:15 hosh_office [~hosh@c-71-204-27-0.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:21:12 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:36:18 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-181-167.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:36:26 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:41:41 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:43:01 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Quit: soupdragon] 03:49:24 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 03:52:34 -!- mmc [~michal@109.112.203.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:07:42 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-241-130.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:07:51 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-241-130.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:13:53 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Quit: time to reboot emacs; sayonara] 04:14:27 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 04:26:06 chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has joined #scheme 04:28:39 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:28:57 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 04:30:12 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 04:31:33 hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:40:59 How come the `body' of a DO is a sequence of commands, not a lambda body? Grumble! 04:41:26 Consequently, in order to use internal definitions, I must wrap them in (LET () ...). 04:43:34 -!- chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:45:47 curi [~curi@h215.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 04:57:21 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:20 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:01:37 soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #scheme 05:06:07 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 05:06:50 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:07:17 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 05:08:48 When a body meet a body, coming through the dynamic-wind... 05:19:32 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:26:43 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Quit: soupdragon] 05:29:06 -!- bokr [~eduska@85.26.241.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32:11 -!- hosh_office [~hosh@c-71-204-27-0.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:32:46 hosh_office [~hosh@c-71-204-27-0.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:40 -!- curi [~curi@h215.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:17:06 karme [~user@stgt-5d848085.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 06:19:06 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20:26 -!- klutometis [klutometis@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:21:20 -!- incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:26:27 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:27:22 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:30:33 klutometis [klutometis@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 06:31:00 -!- klutometis is now known as Guest38273 06:33:06 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@7-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 06:36:38 incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 06:41:26 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 06:44:40 masm [~masm@2.80.149.226] has joined #scheme 07:14:30 -!- karme [~user@stgt-5d848085.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:44 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:25 karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 07:31:50 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-241-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:32:10 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:33:34 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-241-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:36:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 07:40:26 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:35 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-150.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 07:43:34 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:44:06 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-150.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 07:44:15 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:46:53 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.192] has joined #scheme 07:49:37 Digitalos [~Ian@ppp118-209-128-143.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 07:50:38 Hi all, I've never used Scehem before but the app I'm using uses it and I just want to write a very simple script. I have an INT32ARRAY and would like to access indexes of it, similar to myArray[i] sort of thing in some other C languages. Does anyone know the Scheme syntax for this? 07:53:19 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 07:54:43 I'm not sure what scheme that is, but a quick google suggests it's gimp related, so #gimp might be worth a try. You might want to hang around here anyways though, as someone else may have the answer. 07:59:35 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:02 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:07:08 -!- cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:15:09 Ok thanks Obfuscate 08:17:13 Oh and yes it's Gimp's scripting Scheme. 08:20:57 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:09 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 08:24:24 curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 08:24:57 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:25:27 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.60] has joined #scheme 08:25:48 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 08:30:51 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:34:51 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:35:37 -!- karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:36 karme [~user@stgt-5d848085.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 08:38:34 -!- Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:45:06 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:46:39 -!- saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:49:15 -!- curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:50:58 curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 08:55:45 bokr [~eduska@85.26.241.242] has joined #scheme 09:02:56 -!- paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:07 paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #scheme 09:05:56 -!- jay-mccarthy [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:09:55 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:11:13 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 09:19:02 jay-mccarthy [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 09:24:49 -!- `26 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:28:46 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 09:45:29 alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has joined #scheme 09:46:28 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 09:56:43 elderK [~elderK@125-238-255-98.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 09:56:43 -!- elderK [~elderK@125-238-255-98.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Changing host] 09:56:43 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 09:59:23 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adafe9d.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 10:10:00 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:22 -!- devslashnull [~james@220-253-98-252.TAS.netspace.net.au] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 10:44:05 -!- karme [~user@stgt-5d848085.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:03 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-181-167.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:05:40 borbonpo [bc520492@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.82.4.146] has joined #scheme 11:06:43 hey, i have a doubt, what is the big different between Scheme and Haskell, is true that fp language have a big learning curve? 11:11:09 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:12:03 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:12:57 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:13:08 borbonpo: no, the might have a big un-learning curve if you are very set in your ways 11:16:52 borbonpo: the syntax is pretty different for Haskell and Scheme. Haskell places more emphasis on types than (most versions of) scheme. Haskell uses lazy evaluation pervasively out of the box, but this can be done in scheme too. 11:17:43 I think even Haskell people agree that macro support in scheme is better than template haskell, although I'm not really familiar with either. 11:17:51 scheme is not used in opensource projects right? 11:18:11 i only know C, so i want to learn new stuff, and do some opensource work 11:18:14 XD 11:19:00 borbonpo: there are as many opensource scheme projects as people on this channel, probably 11:19:25 bremner: can you name one? 11:19:28 I'd point you at https://www.ohloh.net/languages/20 but it's not responding for me 11:20:25 bremner: http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations <- pick one ;) 11:21:38 sjamaan: ? 11:21:40 I think only a handful of those are not open source 11:23:41 I'm not sure the multiplicity of implementations is entirely a strength, but I guess it is better than only having one. 11:23:51 It's a blessing and a curse 11:24:04 agreed 11:24:21 the Haskell world lives or dies by the success of ghc 11:24:33 There's hugs, but nobody cares 11:24:51 Everyone uses the ghc extensions anyway, which makes hugs mostly useless 11:25:14 what is the best example of a big opensource project using scheme? lilypond? 11:25:28 That's a good one 11:25:32 Gimp is another 11:25:50 texmacs 11:26:09 -!- borbonpo [bc520492@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.82.4.146] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:26:34 Oh wait, you're not the one who started asking about Schemes 11:26:34 heh 11:26:41 That was borbonpo 11:26:43 And he left! 11:26:46 How rude 11:27:04 well, I guess scheme isn't for him. Good luck with monads :) 11:27:10 :P 11:27:31 *sjamaan* is off for a walk 11:34:01 mmc [~michal@109.112.19.137] has joined #scheme 11:35:55 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-20-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 11:39:23 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:40:03 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 11:49:38 I'd point you at https://www.ohloh.net/languages/20 but it's not responding for me 11:49:48 ASau`: It's working now 11:50:07 *ASau`* thinks that sjamaan tries to conceal the fact that he's in top 3 of active committers. 11:50:18 :) 11:50:50 Top 3 eh? 11:51:09 I guess the fact PLT's enlistments are not updated for Racket is what made me rise higher 11:51:13 "Accounts with the most commits in Scheme between Jun 2010 and Aug 2010 as measured by Ohloh." 11:51:19 -!- mmc [~michal@109.112.19.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 247 seconds] 11:51:32 (I used to be in the top 5 or 6) 11:51:35 I guess Common Scheme divorced. 11:51:40 :) 11:52:11 There's strong suspicion that it isn't even Scheme. 11:52:28 That page doesn't really answer the original question of what projects scheme is used in other than scheme compilers/interpreters 11:52:28 yeah, that's why it isn't "Racket Scheme", but just "Racket" 11:52:44 They even changed their default file extension for source code from .scm to .rkt 11:52:58 mmc [~michal@109.112.19.137] has joined #scheme 11:53:12 bremner: The question was if it's used in open source projects. Ohloh can only measure activity in public repositories 11:53:29 bremner: not much, actually. 11:54:19 Unfortunately, ASau` is right; Scheme isn't used for big high profile open source projects 11:54:22 Scheme land is endemic on child disease. 11:54:47 Everyone's writing his own toy compiler rather than anything useful in the language itself. 11:55:38 If one wants to use it in production one has to apply major efforts to close the gap in libraries. 11:55:59 (Or fight with bugs.) 12:04:54 -!- Digitalos [~Ian@ppp118-209-128-143.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:10:50 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:39 -!- curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:42:08 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:03 eormap [~eormap@89.252.25.24] has joined #scheme 13:02:18 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 13:07:48 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15:12 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15:43 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 13:20:12 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:34 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 13:23:14 Intensity [MDTZ6BQKY7@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 13:23:43 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 13:24:55 -!- bokr [~eduska@85.26.241.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:34:37 kar8nga [~kar8nga@78.104.81.79] has joined #scheme 13:34:50 -!- mmc [~michal@109.112.19.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:36:21 mmc [~michal@109.112.19.137] has joined #scheme 13:44:53 scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-69-143-212-215.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:46:42 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 13:51:55 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-48-148.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 13:54:23 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.149.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:57:22 sjamaan, the default file extension in PLT Scheme was .ss 13:57:32 Right 13:59:13 but Racket is certainly a Scheme 13:59:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:02:05 masm [~masm@bl19-149-226.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:05:36 -!- scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-69-143-212-215.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 14:14:05 _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has joined #scheme 14:25:48 gah 14:25:53 your micro sucks 14:26:37 get a normalizer 14:30:03 hohoho [~hohoho@airh128001118.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:32:54 nah my mistake 14:36:35 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-251.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:41:26 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@airh128001118.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:54:24 fowlduck [~fowlduck@2002:4547:f82e:0:fa1e:dfff:fed7:9dc1] has joined #scheme 14:55:10 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:55:17 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:57 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@7-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:03:05 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@7-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 15:03:49 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:03:55 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:06:31 iv bbbbbbbbbbbbb 15:08:01 foof: your cat is typing again. 15:11:16 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:11:27 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:14:37 kuribas [~user@d54C43520.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 15:16:58 Has anyone here used clojure? Is it worth investigating? 15:17:32 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-150.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:17:33 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-150.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:18:38 I haven't used it myself, and I'm even less likely to try it or any other JVM-hosted language now that Oracle has taken to suing over open source projects that infringe on JVM-related patents. 15:19:11 They have? Geesh. 15:19:39 chandler: good point. 15:19:56 kuribas, I have trouble taking Clojure seriously when the bulk of the language is implemented in Java, as if Clojure were unfit to express most of the language. 15:20:05 Yes, they just sued Google over the Dalvik VM. They also listed a claim of copyright infringement which they don't go into detail on, and I wonder if that has anything to do with the Harmony class librarly. 15:20:16 "library". 15:21:23 And it doesn't have TCO, according to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Tutorials_and_Tips#Clojure_for_Scheme_Programmers 15:21:23 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2edb6a2 15:23:32 Riastradh, i don't think that's a reasonable critera for language seriousness 15:23:35 Whoever wrote that is confused. Clojure has continuations. TCO is a compiler optimization, not the guarantee about program space safety that Scheme provides, which is called `proper tail recursion'. What the heck is an `atomic programming language'? Do they explode, or generate large amounts of power? 15:23:44 samth, if it were a domain-specific language, sure. 15:23:49 Clojure is not marketed as a domain-specific language. 15:23:56 i continue to disagree 15:24:01 do you think Racket is a serious language? 15:24:24 Yeah, that section is really confused. 15:24:25 Oracle is also claiming that Google has violated their copyright on "code, specifications, documentation, and other materials". Given that Dalvik differs so radically from the JVM, I can only guess that this has more to do with the class library. 15:24:32 Yes, samth, although I find it pretty silly how much of it is implemented in C. 15:24:57 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-20-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:00 Riastradh, what's the distinction between Racket and Clojure, then? 15:26:26 also, bootstrapping your language makes everything much harder - I don't blame Rich Hickey for not wanting to do that 15:26:40 I think the situation is a bit different for Racket than it is for Clojure too. The Clojure implementors don't need to worry about implementing the core VM and the JIT, the garbage collector, etc. 15:27:04 Most of what is written in C in Racket is perfectly reasonable to write in Scheme, and is written in Scheme in many other Scheme implementations. 15:27:33 If there were eight different Clojure implementations of which seven implemented most of their library in Clojure, I'd consider taking Clojure more seriously. 15:27:33 most of those Scheme implementations require bootstrapping, which is true of neither Racket nor Clojure 15:27:59 That might be; I'm just pointing out that it's much more plausible to write all of Clojure in Clojure than it is to write all of Racket in Racket. 15:27:59 Why is bootstrapping a problem? Every system at some level needs bootstrapping. 15:28:34 Riastradh, all the bootstrapping work for the JVM is done by other people 15:28:41 Clojure doesn't have to do any of it 15:28:49 similarly, Racket doesn't have to do any bootstrapping 15:28:58 as it would if the compiler was written in Racket 15:29:22 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:31:39 chandler, they are working on doing that, i believe 15:32:03 but it would be tricky to write the list implementation in clojure without bootstrapping, i believe 15:33:56 Indeed, but I'm not opposed to boostrapping. I don't judge languages based on whether or not they're boostrapped, though. 15:34:34 I think there are more substantive criticisms of Clojure than its implementation technique. 15:35:20 What I am trying to illustrate with this is that it doesn't sound as though the creators of Clojure take their language seriously enough to use it for general purposes such as implementing data structures and compilers. 15:35:20 hygienic macros would've been nice 15:35:41 -!- _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:36:08 Riastradh, I don't think that critque makes any sense 15:36:48 I think Racket is a great language for implementing data structures and compilers, but I understand why Matthew didn't implement Racket's core data structures and compiler in it 15:36:49 Agree or disagree, many language creators have an aversion to bootstrapping which is not based on whether they feel their language is suitable for use in implementing a compiler. 15:37:27 wrt Clojure, I'm much more concerned about things like foof's point about macros 15:38:32 foof: Yes, that's near the top of the list. Not making random changes to Lisp reader syntax conventions would've been nice too. 15:38:45 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-251.vinet.ba] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:39:40 chandler, i don't think they should be bound by the particular reader decisions of older lisps 15:39:41 The language syntax is what you would get if Common Lisp were designed by someone who thought that typing was a very, very hard problem and thus keystrokes must be conserved at all costs. 15:39:51 let a thousand flowers bloom 15:40:04 I always twitch whenever someone says that. 15:40:16 I don't think they should be bound by convention either. The use of the word "random" was meant to indicate that I don't think the changes were well-founded. 15:41:45 the comma is just plain stupid 15:41:48 Like Arc, Clojure seems to favour cosmetic differences over substantial differences from existing Lisps. 15:41:55 soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #scheme 15:44:00 If the cosmetic differences had consistent rhyme and reason to them -- for example, ditching the archaic list operationg names such as NCONC and replacing them by consistent conventions such as using ordinary English words with exclamation and question marks like Scheme -- that would be one thing, but dropping the `u' from `defun' is pretty silly. 15:46:02 I would also criticize Clojure for its semantic limitations (notably the lack of proper tail calling and first-class continuations). These limitations were no doubt motivated by efficiency, but unless one has an extremely compelling reason to use a JVM language there's no good reason to accept them. 15:46:35 ...and now we have pretty compelling reasons not to use JVM languages... 15:46:37 (I have no idea whether Clojure is actually more efficient than SISC, though.) 15:47:49 I remember that someone experimented in SISC with a relatively simple Scheme->JVM compiler, and it turned out to be no faster than SISC's interpreter. 15:48:20 chandler: There are efficient ways to compile tail calls. Continuations are another matter. 15:48:58 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49:21 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-20-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 15:49:23 How? I haven't seen anything better than trampolines yet, but I certainly could have missed something interesting. 15:49:28 From what I remember, the JVM actually precludes proper tail recursion for general method calls. 15:49:48 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 15:50:04 Also, the JVM has continuations, as does Clojure, and Java, and C, and Python, and so on. It's *first-class* continuations that they don't have. 15:50:40 kuribas, do tell about efficiently implementing tail calls on the JVM. 15:51:06 There are other design choices in Clojure that I like - the use of persistent data structures and STM - but there's no reason these choices couldn't have been explored without ignoring thirty-odd years of Lisp / Scheme design evolution. 15:52:10 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:52:32 gnomon: I don't know anything about the JVM, but I would think that tail calls can be converted to imperative looping constructs. 15:52:45 They can't in general. 15:53:10 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-104.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:53:10 Local tail recursions can be. That doesn't suffice to guarantee proper tail recursion, however. 15:53:29 I see... 15:54:07 At least not with the set of such constructs provided with the JVM they can't. Moreover, once you have tail calling you don't *need* any other constructs, and the JVM wouldn't have them in that case. 15:54:17 (wouldn't have other constructs) 15:55:35 That's not really true, chandler. Although to guarantee space safety in loops the JVM wouldn't need anything beyond general method call with proper tail recursion, there are other concerns to address which the JVM needs other constructs -- namely, for performance, in a loop, you want to jump back to the starting instruction, not make a new general method call. 15:56:37 moghar [~marcin@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 15:56:41 Riastradh, that's just a specific optimization to apply to the general case though, isn't it? 15:57:30 What I just mentioned, about jumping back to the starting instruction, is a speed (and space) optimization, not a guarantee about space safety. It is a separate issue from proper tail recursion. 15:57:32 I'm afraid that I'm not seeing the difference between a self tail call and a goto. 15:58:38 In particular, what prevents (let loop (...) ... (loop ...)) from being implemented more efficiently than (tagbody loop ... (go loop)) ? 15:59:02 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-20-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:36 Actually, let's make it easier in the former case, and consider (let loop () ... (loop)) . 15:59:49 In the source language, there isn't a difference. When I say `general method call', I mean the relatively heavy-weight mechanism by which the variables needed by the continuation are saved on the stack, the arguments are bundled up in new locations on the stack or in registers (on the stack for the JVM, I think), and control transfers to the target of the call perhaps passing through a linker's GOT or PLT or whatever. 16:01:37 That is, when I say `general method call', I mean the JVM instructions needed to perform the most general case of a method call, not the source language construct to call a method. 16:01:58 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-26-180.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:02:24 It's not the most general case, though, and even at runtime it's possible to detect that the call can be implemented more efficiently and skip the heavy-weight method call implementation. 16:03:31 Depends on how low-level the information in the JVM is -- it may be non-trivial to recover enough information to usefully translate a general method call into a backward jump, eliding all the unnecessary stack shuffling. 16:03:31 Maybe there's something specific to how method calls are implemented in the JVM that I'm unaware of, in which case I'd make the facile claim that had the JVM been designed with proper tail calling in mind that those specific problems would have been avoided from the beginning. 16:04:20 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@78.104.81.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:13 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:15 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 16:05:53 I'm just saying that `pop frob; pop grovel; pop mumble; push grovel; push mumble; push frob; unpack callee into reg; jump *reg' is not what you want to execute if you can instead make it `jump loop'. 16:06:08 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:06:19 It may be non-trivial to recover that the original sequence of instructions was just (loop frob mumble grovel). 16:06:51 i'm pretty sure the JVM instruction would be basically "invoke frob" 16:07:03 so that should be easy to make into a jump 16:07:26 Could be. I don't know what the JVM looks like. 16:08:05 Anyway, I was just saying that there are reasons why the JVM might include control flow constructs other than a general method call even if the general method call mechanism guaranteed proper tail recursion. 16:08:25 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:11:14 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 16:15:26 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:15:33 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-3-27.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:16:11 Riastradh: Point taken, though I think my facile claim still holds. 16:26:04 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-49-233.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 16:29:59 marienz_ [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #scheme 16:31:25 pumpkin [~copumpkin@94.165.19.63] has joined #scheme 16:32:09 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 619 seconds] 16:32:40 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@94.166.124.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:38:08 -!- marienz_ is now known as marienz 16:38:10 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43520.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:41:29 -!- moghar [~marcin@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:54:15 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 17:01:36 IJP [~Ian@host86-182-189-47.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:02:32 -!- Guest92123 is now known as Fare 17:06:13 curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 17:06:57 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:12:56 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:43 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-187.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:15:46 considering that any half-decent JVM implementation first unassembles the bytecode into a parse-tree, it might actually be better to keep the "high-level" representation. 17:19:06 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:23:40 -!- mmc [~michal@109.112.19.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:03 alvatar [~alvatar@192.148.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 17:26:56 mmc [~michal@109.112.19.137] has joined #scheme 17:29:21 `26 [~kvirc@216.252.81.166] has joined #scheme 17:29:21 -!- `26 [~kvirc@216.252.81.166] has quit [Changing host] 17:29:21 `26 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has joined #scheme 17:34:14 -!- mmc [~michal@109.112.19.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:39:28 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:41:16 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:50 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:45:23 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:19 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-48-148.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 17:51:34 -!- tewk_ is now known as tewk 17:52:58 kar8nga [~kar8nga@m-164.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 17:54:56 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 17:58:46 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:09:53 -!- saccade_ [~saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:14:50 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 18:18:02 rudybot: eval (require scheme/control) (% (and (fcontrol #t) (display "pong~") (fcontrol #f)) (lambda (obj kont) (display "ping~") (kont obj))) 18:18:05 IJP: your sandbox is ready 18:18:06 IJP: error: call-with-continuation-prompt: context (application of default prompt handler) expected 1 value, received 2 values: #f # 18:18:29 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:18:44 so fcontrol and % push and pop a continuation stack? 18:18:59 erm, that would be pop and push respectively 18:20:46 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 18:26:18 -!- fowlduck [~fowlduck@2002:4547:f82e:0:fa1e:dfff:fed7:9dc1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:26:56 I thought fcontrol just saved the current position in the continuation stack and % popped off all frames to that point 18:28:12 or maybe thats backwards.. 18:28:28 that is backwards 18:28:39 yes, I had thought that the handler would be used for sucessive fcontrols 18:28:52 `fcontrol' is like call/cc, and % is the prompt 18:33:37 IJP, % doesn't re-install the handler 18:34:21 see `reset' if you want that 18:34:33 I noticed, that's what had tripped me up in my understanding 18:37:56 mmc [~michal@109.117.164.48] has joined #scheme 18:39:56 samth: racket doesn't have the tagged variants, is that right? 18:40:06 i don't know what you mean 18:41:06 I'm reading "Handling Control" by Sitaram, and it mentions a run-tagged, and a fcontrol-tagged 18:41:13 no, those are there 18:41:34 see prompt-at, etc 18:41:50 it doesn't have `fcontrol-at' 18:42:02 though that should be easy to write 18:42:48 ok thanks 18:49:39 -!- mmc [~michal@109.117.164.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:53:08 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:56:53 mejja, so, what's borken? 19:08:23 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:13:33 chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has joined #scheme 19:25:01 Riastradh: My private primitives for programming the fpu. 19:25:52 .. all broken by x86_64_fpe_reset_traps 19:25:54 -!- curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:34:00 bgs100 [~ian@h135.232.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 19:34:10 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h135.232.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:34:10 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:43:48 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 19:44:00 mejja, might this help? 19:49:35 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:50:59 -!- chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has quit [Quit: off to run] 19:56:10 -!- eormap [~eormap@89.252.25.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:26 cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 20:02:42 Also FTZ and DAZ, please! 20:10:30 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:13:10 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:13:21 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:14:41 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@7-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:14:48 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@7-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 20:15:31 I didn't provide any support for that because they lead to non-IEEE 754 behaviour. 20:19:20 So what are you waiting for? Push the flotrap.patch asap! 20:20:58 Unmasking the inexact exception makes Scheme explode. 20:21:05 I'd need to fix the source of that problem first. 20:21:58 Yes. Delete inexact-result from the list of supported traps. 20:23:02 Also, this adds a huge pile of hair to sysprim.c where it doesn't belong. 20:25:55 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 20:29:05 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:41 incubot: more hair 20:31:45 But again, no glasses, light hair, stupid, doesn't seem particularly caring, probably can't program, probably isn't an artist. what a waste of food. 20:32:42 ... 20:34:22 Is this... is this amusing? I'm afraid I still don't see the attraction here. Surely sorbet was more profound than this. 20:36:29 chandler: Oh, sorry, I forgot to translate from the Japanese. What I meant was 20:36:34 WTF?! o_O 20:37:02 foof: It wasn't a comment on your "...". 20:37:24 I was reflecting on my annoyance at this message-regurgitation "feature". 20:37:31 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc] 20:37:31 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net.] 20:37:46 Gee, I guess even lisppaste is disgusted by it. 20:37:56 Ah, I parsed 'Is this "..." this amusing?' 20:38:22 foof:  20:39:00 leave me alone, it's 5:30am 20:40:23 incubot does seem eerily profound sometimes, but that's just confirmation bias 20:40:52 sorbet, on the other hand, rocked my world when i first had it 20:41:07 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:41:15 It would occasionally be, since humans did write most of its regurgitations. 20:41:42 or by sorbet did you mean sarahbot? 20:42:22 Do you like the climate in Atlanta? 20:42:55 Too bad sorbet runs only on patent-encumbered virtual machines! 20:43:21 how can I make animation (gif) with PLT?? 20:44:08 soupdragon: beware of patents there too! 20:44:12 FoxFire, asymptonic, wherever you are, whoever you are now -- can you make sorbet run on a less litigious platform? 20:44:16 huh? 20:44:19 Haven't the GIF patents expired by now? 20:44:21 soupdragon: shake your laptop! 20:44:27 oh yeah 20:44:45 gif is coming back in style 20:44:48 youll see 20:44:59 :-D 20:45:05 gif is the new png 20:45:05 soupdragon, http://docs.racket-lang.org/file/gif.html?q=file/gif 20:45:12 Be sure to have Dr. Racket open, though. 20:45:29 GIFs are still absurdly low-quality, of course, and I don't know any reason to use GIF rather than PNG, but then I don't know anything about graphics. 20:45:44 schmir [~schmir@p54A90A32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:45:45 thanks 20:46:05 There's no widely-supported standard for animated PNGs. 20:46:58 I see. 20:47:18 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:47:46 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:47:52 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:50:22 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90A32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:54:05 TR2N [email@89-180-147-167.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 20:55:20 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 21:00:33 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:13:56 -!- mjonsson_ [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:18:41 fod [~fod@92.251.255.5.threembb.ie] has joined #scheme 21:21:35 So, since time immemorial, MIT Scheme has used the term `weak' when applied to a hash table to mean that the key of each entry is weakly referenced while the datum is strongly referenced. Consequently, all the names with `weak' in them refer to this. 21:21:36 chandler, weren't MNG it? 21:22:32 I'd like to give the option to the user of the several different types of weakness, but it won't do to change the semantics of all the operations that have unadorned `weak' in their names. 21:23:07 (The option is between what CLISP and SBCL call :KEY, :DATUM, :KEY-AND-DATUM, and :KEY-OR-DATUM.) 21:24:47 Also, because ephemerons are considerably more costly than weak pairs (each requiring more than twice as much storage as a weak pair), I am wondering whether it would be worthwhile to give the user a choice between weak pairs and ephemerons. 21:25:58 Opininos? (C'mon, it's a bikeshed!) 21:26:08 Opininos?? What are those? I meant `opinions'. 21:26:26 (I bet the bikesheds at the LHC are painted with opininos.) 21:30:04 Fare, MNG is not widely accepted 21:44:51 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-76.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:45:05 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-19-234-140.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:48:58 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-104.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:02:48 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-19-234-140.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: [TalkSoup] Get it today: http://talksoup.aeruder.net] 22:05:25 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-19-234-140.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:11:32 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@m-164.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:46 Riastradh, for what it's worth, I think that separating weak pairs from ephemerons is a good idea. However, since "ephemeron" is a niftier name than "weak pair", it might cause users to choose those without regard for or knowledge of the performance tradeoff; therefore I propose that you use the term "slow weak pair" instead. 22:13:08 Also, I like my bikesheds to be proof against zombies. 22:15:02 -!- Checkie [28059@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:16:44 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 22:19:06 So there are seven options: strong, key-weak, key-ephemeral, datum-weak, datum-ephemeral, key-and-datum-ephemeral, key-or-datum-weak. `Foo-ephemeral' means that if foo goes away, then the entry goes away. (`Key-or-datum-weak' means that if either goes away, then the entry goes away.) 22:20:08 Generally, if you want something weak, you really want it ephemeral. 22:20:17 To hang properties on objects, you want key-ephemeral tables, *unless* you are sure that no property's value will ever refer to its key, in which case key-weak tables will suffice. 22:20:47 To intern objects, you want datum-ephemeral tables, *unless* you are sure that no key will ever refer to the interned datum with which it is associated, in which case datum-weak tables will suffice. 22:21:46 If ephemeral is the more useful of the two, perhaps it deserves the shorter lexeme? 22:21:52 (Well, for interning objects, in practice, it is usually the case that datum-weak tables will suffice -- but that's a practical `in general', not a theoretical `in general'.) 22:22:08 The problem is that I can't just change the semantics of the existing names. So I have to find new names. 22:22:13 Right. 22:22:21 -ephm? 22:22:25 Unfortunately, the existing names are, well, partially my fault. 22:22:36 J'accuse, mon petit fromage! 22:22:40 Oh, I see. 22:22:46 No, I don't want to abbreviate anything. 22:22:54 abbv? 22:23:16 Here are the two options I was considering: (1) multiplying the relevant procedures by the number of weakness options, (2) using a single set of procedures for strong tables, and a single set of procedures for weak tables, the latter having an extra parameter for the type of weakness. 22:23:25 The first option just entails using long names for everything. 22:23:30 It was a tentative suggestion. I know (and generally agree with) your stance on abbreviating lexemes into nonsense. 22:23:41 make-key-ephemeral-eq-hash-table, make-datum-weak-string-hash-table, &c. 22:24:37 The second option would be nicer: (make-weak-eq-hash-table 'KEY-WEAK ...), (make-weak-string-hash-table 'DATUM-EPHEMERAL ...), &c. 22:24:53 However, MAKE-WEAK-EQ-HASH-TABLE already has a meaning. 22:25:07 (In retrospect, it was stupid of me last fall to introduce MAKE-WEAK-EQ-HASH-TABLE instead of MAKE-KEY-WEAK-EQ-HASH-TABLE.) 22:25:25 (Formerly the procedure was called MAKE-EQ-HASH-TABLE, which was also a mistake, but that mistake was Chris's fault, not mine.) 22:25:40 Hmm. 22:25:57 I don't know if there is a clean and pleasant choice. 22:26:03 May I digress for a moment? 22:26:19 Yes, if you pay a toll of a sandwich. 22:26:29 Shall I add that to my debt? 22:26:42 OK. I'll put it on your tab. 22:27:03 Two sandwiches owed, then, and three or more paper bags. My digression is thus: have you ever played around with Rebol? 22:27:22 Not really. I remember being horrified by it when I glanced at it once. I think jrm liked it. 22:27:55 It has an interesting property where procedures may be grouped together and addressed with path specifiers. It seems applicable to this kind of problem, though not the Scheme language. 22:28:41 http://www.rebol.com/r3/docs/datatypes/path.html 22:29:14 No, correction: it sounds like jrm wrote the first Rebol interpreter and compiler or something a decade ago or so. I don't know whether he likes it. 22:29:59 I find it interesting in this case because because the use of dashes as lexeme separators implies English- (or at least natural-language-) like parsing, whereas Rebol paths imply progressive specificity. 22:30:37 (unfortunately they also incorrectly imply hierarchy, which is a useful shorthand but can lead non-experts to confusion) 22:36:45 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:05 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-19-234-140.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:30 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:39 Riastradh, NOT the first interpreter. The first compiler. 22:59:04 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 22:59:29 he doesn't necessarily like it, but he's proud of having found ways to work around the extreme dynamic nature of the language and still be able to compile code. 22:59:58 jrm claims at that he `joined Rebol Technologies in the summer of 1998 and wrote the first implementation of the Rebol interpreter.' 23:01:34 I must have misunderstood, then. 23:05:02 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 23:05:04 curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 23:05:52 If I recall correctly, other sources said that his method was extremely smart - so smart, unfortunately, that almost nobody else could understand it. Apparently he wrote most of the code manually in continuation passing style. I seem to recall that it either replaced or was replaced with a stack-based system. 23:16:45 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-76.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:23:16 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-149-226.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:28:14 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:34 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:30:15 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38:50 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:21 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@192.148.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:40:52 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-181-167.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:42:54 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:29 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme