00:00:57 On some systems (BSDs and, as of last week in Git at least, Linux), rlwrap can request that the operating system inform it of such events by putting the pty into TIOCPKT mode. I was able to make rlwrap notice the events, but figuring out what to do with readline when the events occur was too complicated to fit in my head, so I gave up making a patch. The author of rlwrap might return to this, though. 00:01:02 Which attr was he trying to set? 00:01:28 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 00:02:09 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 00:02:16 Changing the control characters or input processing mode are the important ones, and the ones that rlwrap trips over with MIT Scheme. 00:02:56 Well, no, they're all equally important; that MIT Scheme changes those in particular is what's relevant to metasyntax's observed problem. 00:05:06 MIT Scheme is somewhat unusual in that it manipulates those attrs without providing any readline-like functionality of its own. 00:07:13 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:08:28 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A902CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:37 -!- justicefries__ [~thefry@173-14-6-4-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: justicefries__] 00:12:54 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.194] has joined #scheme 00:13:52 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 00:16:37 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:17:17 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:17:43 *Riastradh* shrugs. 00:22:58 virl__ [~virl__@178-191-169-149.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 00:23:17 tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 00:23:23 _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 00:23:23 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:23:53 -!- tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:23:53 tessier_ [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #scheme 00:24:44 -!- virl [~virl__@178-191-165-249.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:28:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:29:56 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 00:37:59 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:55:51 asarch [~asarch@189.188.142.134] has joined #scheme 01:06:16 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:10:13 I'm not saying that's good or bad, just unusual. rlwrap, at least originally, was intended to wrap completely dumb programs that did no terminal management at all. 01:11:01 Programs that do handle ioctl/termio tend to go the whole 9 yards, usually using readline or ncurses. 01:11:07 MIT Scheme is in between. 01:12:11 Darcs is also in between. Offhand, I can't think of anything else in that category. 01:15:39 -!- virl__ [~virl__@178-191-169-149.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:17:30 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 01:18:20 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:20:07 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:46 -!- tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:27:20 Azuvix [~user@174-19-225-80.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:30:14 mudge [~nick@75.42.75.203] has joined #scheme 01:30:29 hey, does anybody know how to get the latest book "How to Design Programs" ? 01:30:41 virl__ [~virl__@178-191-169-149.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 01:30:43 seems like the latest edition is 2003, but i can't find a printed book with that date 01:41:52 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit 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[~user@xdsl-84-44-252-26.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:52:20 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:54:30 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 04:54:38 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 04:54:45 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-26.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:59:25 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:08:21 waltermai [~walt@c-68-54-64-79.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:13:16 -!- FareTower [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:14:43 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 05:34:22 you guys are so talkative 05:34:43 luls 05:42:57 copumpkin [~copumpkin@94.166.67.154] has joined #scheme 05:52:09 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-124-50.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 05:54:51 05:57:47 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-123-87.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 06:00:04 -!- justicefries_ [~thefry@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: justicefries_] 06:03:42 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 06:17:05 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-26.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:19:58 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-26.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:20:29 -!- sepisultrum [~sepiultru@hcl-club.lu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:20:47 -!- Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:22:31 Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has joined #scheme 06:25:19 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-145.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:25:45 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-145.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:27:02 sepisultrum [~sepiultru@hcl-club.lu] has joined #scheme 06:29:27 bokr [~eduska@95-30-100-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 06:31:33 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:51 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 07:10:51 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:20:46 mudge: 07:34 CEST is a little early for CEST guys, and really too late for PDT-EDT guys. 07:21:26 mudge: perhaps you could promote scheme and #scheme in Mongolia, China and India? 07:21:53 mudge: (the others being busy with sand, oild and US boys...) 07:25:54 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:32:19 masm [~masm@bl15-133-99.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 07:33:53 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-101-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 07:34:06 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 07:41:13 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 07:48:43 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-101-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:51:36 -!- 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10:06:05 alvatar [~alvatar@75.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 10:06:31 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:07:56 schmir [~schmir@p54A92BEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:42 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 10:16:44 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A92BEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:26 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-123-87.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:35:26 -!- tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:35:46 tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 10:35:59 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 10:45:41 schmir [~schmir@p54A92BEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:50:20 CBro2007 [~manukaul@213.1.222.66] has joined #scheme 10:50:58 just wondering if you have to return the item at a certain index in a list, does the recursion using cdr perform well? 10:52:26 http://codepad.org/A4UCbgAV 10:52:34 was referring to the example in SICP 11:01:32 itsgg [~itsgg@218.248.84.82] has joined #scheme 11:01:34 -!- tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:02:28 -!- itsgg [~itsgg@218.248.84.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:10 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:03:18 anyone? 11:04:56 yup 11:15:53 What do you mean by "perform well"? 11:16:45 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 11:29:08 asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.240] has joined #scheme 11:36:38 being O(n) time and O(1) space, i'd be surprised if one could do it better in any sense :) 11:37:20 apart from partial evaling a few steps in case that helps in the particular implementation, (eq? n 0) etc 11:39:27 Interesting indent style 11:39:50 doesn't look like ocaml to me 11:40:29 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:41:08 -!- CBro2007 [~manukaul@213.1.222.66] has quit [Quit: CBro2007] 11:44:40 Jafet: hiya 11:47:47 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 11:49:32 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A92BEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50:15 davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has joined #scheme 11:57:49 -!- jao [~user@14.Red-88-6-167.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:03:12 schmir [~schmir@p54A92BEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 12:12:21 kingping_ [~kp@95.70.82.231] has joined #scheme 12:12:26 Hello folks 12:12:56 -!- kingping_ is now known as kingping 12:15:21 Is there any kind of port I can write binary data to so that while writing the data it is appended to the end? 12:16:00 I'd like to have such object to be able to send it via network. 12:33:19 CBro2007 [~manukaul@213.1.222.66] has joined #scheme 12:33:26 kingping: doesn't your implementatoin have tcp-port or something alike? 12:33:34 *implementation 12:39:35 DerGuteMoritz: I'm serializing data, which may be an object (list) with other nested objects, and trying to make a chois as to what approach to be using. Of two, the first one is to create bytevectors recursively and copy them in the calling functions to a bigger single bytevector; the second one is to use some kind of the stream I could write to. Eventually -- notwithstanding of the choice -- I would use the resulting binary array in any further processing. 12:39:57 E. g. I would compress the output data and send it via network. 12:40:03 Or just save it to a file. 12:40:46 ah I see 12:41:19 -!- waltermai [~walt@c-68-54-64-79.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:41:26 DerGuteMoritz: The latter approach would just simplifies the overall design and make a thing work faster. 12:41:50 what implementation are you using? 12:42:02 I may be mistaken though. I'm new to Scheme. 12:42:13 I'm using Racket (former PLT Scheme). 12:43:37 read and write allow sending many kinds of objects safely as sexprs in most schemes 12:44:31 (and some have their own encoders/decoders for arbitrary objects) 12:46:48 aoh: I have to specify that I'm not going to send data over network as I'm serializing data, I'd like to get the resulting binary object and possibly perform further processing, though, a simple write-only would also do. 12:47:09 (in the memory) 12:52:28 makes sense often. i'd guess racket documentation has something about fasl format or serialization in the documentation 12:52:35 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-123-87.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 13:04:07 FareTower [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:09:52 -!- FareTower [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:14:56 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:11 -!- mudge [~nick@75.42.75.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:32:37 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-123-87.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:43:02 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 13:45:51 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:47:24 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 14:00:54 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@75.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:04:08 minion: memo for offby1: Any chance of getting rudybot in #racket? It sure would be nice to have. 14:04:09 Remembered. I'll tell offby1 when he/she/it next speaks. 14:11:15 asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.240] has joined #scheme 14:13:50 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-26.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:13:59 pokoko222 [~chatzilla@95.180.189.132] has joined #scheme 14:14:12 any IDE for scheme on windows guys? 14:15:06 Yes, there is. Racket, which is a dialect of Scheme, has an IDE called DrRacket that runs on Windows (and OS X, and various other systems via X11): http://www.racket-lang.org/ 14:16:14 pokoko222: VIM is also a nice tool ;) 14:16:18 (gvim) 14:16:40 what is the easisest one that wont take me time to learn 14:16:51 Not really. It doesn't do nearly as much as DrRacket does, and it's harder to learn. 14:16:52 i just need to write simple code from a book 14:17:06 Use Racket's DrRacket then. It's just what you're looking for. 14:17:11 thank you 14:17:16 then DrRacket will do just fine 14:17:55 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:22:48 boily [~boily@poste205-171.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has joined #scheme 14:25:22 is C-Keen a reference to Coammander Keen? 14:31:38 yes 14:31:43 Wicked. 14:34:55 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:35:04 ok i installed DrRacket 14:35:14 i can now just write Scheme code or i need to set it up? 14:36:02 -!- kingping [~kp@95.70.82.231] has quit [Quit: Vale.] 14:36:07 Select your language first. =] 14:36:26 pokoko222 pasted "somecode" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/112903 14:37:06 alvatar [~alvatar@153.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 14:37:28 what language should i choose 14:38:09 Are you new to scheme? 14:38:26 i guess medium i did scheme litle before 14:38:41 i just dont know how to set this up now 14:38:44 Racket 14:39:48 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:40:05 pokoko222: Choose the "use language declared in the source" option. 14:40:16 Unless you're following "How to Design Programs". 14:40:31 ah ok and now i can write? 14:40:45 oh i see the interpreter now the above was just text 14:40:47 ok i think i get it 14:42:54 how can i evaluate a procedure? I mean when i execute a procedure, it does not evaluate its value 14:43:54 oh you put it in brackets 14:43:56 ok 14:46:10 justicefries_ [~thefry@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:50:51 jsnikeris [~user@216.3.66.10] has joined #scheme 14:54:39 jsnikeri` [~user@216.3.66.10] has joined #scheme 14:58:02 -!- jsnikeris [~user@216.3.66.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:02:08 jsnikeris [~user@216.3.66.10] has joined #scheme 15:02:34 -!- jsnikeri` [~user@216.3.66.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:02:58 hi all 15:08:53 tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 15:11:46 there was a scheme video lectures course from berkley i think 15:12:04 i found the MIT one but i know there was this berkley too 15:13:04 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 15:16:12 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:17:51 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.240] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:18:02 -!- justicefries_ [~thefry@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: justicefries_] 15:20:41 wakko10warner [~wakko9war@74-44-74-177.dsl1-field.roch.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #scheme 15:21:02 Anyone here know ho to get bobotpp to run 15:21:12 it is a guile scheme irc bot. 15:21:28 asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.240] has joined #scheme 15:22:10 ra_ [~dex@ip5454625b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #scheme 15:24:39 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A92BEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:25:48 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 15:26:38 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:27:21 Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 15:29:40 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Changing host] 15:29:40 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 15:40:16 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-123-87.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 15:42:11 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-123-87.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:43:29 -!- ra_ [~dex@ip5454625b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:44:21 justicefries_ [~thefry@173-14-6-4-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:52:23 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.240] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:52:39 -!- boily [~boily@poste205-171.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:52:45 asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.240] has joined #scheme 15:53:03 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 15:53:37 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:03 virl [~virl__@178-191-173-107.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 16:01:41 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-145.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:05:53 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #scheme 16:11:34 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 16:18:34 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:23:57 virl__ [~virl__@178-191-170-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 16:24:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:25:04 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:25:09 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 16:26:55 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 16:27:03 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:43 -!- virl [~virl__@178-191-173-107.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:30:39 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:32:32 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:32:42 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.240] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:36:35 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:44:03 -!- CBro2007 [~manukaul@213.1.222.66] has quit [Quit: CBro2007] 16:50:09 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 16:52:08 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:58:39 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 17:12:57 pairs is everything that scheme has? 17:13:28 c++ has structures, class, unions... well the main of all is a class 17:13:30 Uh, no? What gave you that impression? 17:13:52 ah ok let me keep reading then :) 17:14:07 the author said something like pairs are everything we need for data abstraction 17:14:56 -!- wakko10warner [~wakko9war@74-44-74-177.dsl1-field.roch.ny.frontiernet.net] has left #scheme 17:15:29 so how do you build data structures? 17:15:35 what are the primitves 17:15:42 primitives 17:15:48 as i said in c++ it is the class 17:16:02 lambda 17:16:13 I'm not sure that's *quite* true of C++. 17:16:30 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:53 Scheme has many built-in data structures, including pairs, vectors, strings, closures, etc. Most implementations have a structure-like facility as well. 17:17:19 If you're using Racket, you'll find there are classes, and a whole range of built-in data types. 17:17:57 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:17:58 well what else is in c++ :) 17:18:20 structure, union, what else was there... they are just children of a class which is stronger 17:18:53 chandler but all data structures are built upon pairs right? 17:18:58 Absolutely not. 17:19:08 hmm 17:19:37 well here the pair is represented as the holy grail of scheme and the primitive block to build more complex data structures 17:19:49 Classes and unions (which aren't the same) are definitely the usual way of defining abstractions in C++. You could just as easily use an array of void pointers, though. 17:19:57 pokoko222: "is represented"? 17:20:00 by whom? 17:20:02 Where is "here"? 17:20:27 The author of whatever text you're following may just be trying to make a point about the utility of the pair. 17:20:34 SICP 17:21:05 chandler well yeah i guess you can say that the pointer is the basic building block in c++ 17:21:42 of course union is not same as class, but lot of things they have in common 17:21:42 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@153.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:50 same for struct 17:22:08 it is polymorphism that class can do and others cant 17:22:13 alvatar [~alvatar@153.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 17:22:26 Indeed: SICP is making a didactic point about the utility of pairs and abstractions built upon them (trees, lists, etc.). That's not to say that Scheme in the wild is programmed without other structures - of course it isn't! 17:23:09 -!- EbiDK [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 17:23:19 aha ok thanks ;) 17:25:16 i have read this book before and did litle scheme and after that haskell and now finished first year college one year c++... now i reread SICP 17:28:07 karme [~user@stgt-5f70f67d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 17:31:01 now second year i will do c++ one more year which will be cool, but this year we do data structures and algorithms in it... frickin awesome once you learn some languages and then compare them ... i want to achieve in life this, knowing all programming languages :D "knowing" in a sense you tell me to learn a language, and in a week i will be fully operational to work on the language you told... 17:31:02 ...me to "learn" 17:32:18 because lot of concepts overlap in languages and what it gets down at the end, once you have learned them all, to just pick up a reference and find your way around quickly 17:32:54 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@153.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:34:29 i dont think anyone on earth can learn 80% or more of c++ in a week 17:35:48 i did not say that 17:35:50 virl [~virl__@178-191-166-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 17:36:20 i said once you have learned it, and then you dont work it for some time, you can remember stuff in less then week 17:36:33 do so for lots of languages, learn one, go to next one, and so on 17:36:38 The more you learn, the harder that gets. 17:36:56 well i transfered through languages but on lower level 17:37:00 i solved euler problems 17:37:09 -!- virl__ [~virl__@178-191-170-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37:20 for example i started solving eulers in haskell the first day i started learning it and after 2 months i did 50 of those 17:37:33 then i transfered to c++ and did eulers 17:37:39 before haskell i did scheme 17:37:55 so you can transfer... and i am only student noob, i will master these stuff more as i go on 17:39:04 so after i achieve what i talk here, then the next step is algorithms 17:39:11 at least that is my way i want to go 17:40:19 saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:41:56 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:12 alvatar [~alvatar@153.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 17:50:05 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 17:51:35 -!- davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:53:17 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:27 jsnikeri` [~user@216.3.66.10] has joined #scheme 17:58:08 did that sound too much star wars like? 17:58:17 -!- jsnikeri` [~user@216.3.66.10] has left #scheme 17:58:25 -!- virl [~virl__@178-191-166-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:59:29 -!- justicefries_ [~thefry@173-14-6-4-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: justicefries_] 18:00:10 -!- jsnikeris [~user@216.3.66.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:23 schmir [~schmir@p54A90EE1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:06:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:09:50 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #scheme 18:10:54 -!- tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:12:21 virl [~virl__@178-191-166-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 18:14:02 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:53 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:15:08 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:54 -!- karme [~user@stgt-5f70f67d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:51 -!- abusead [~abusead@CPE001cf068222b-CM0014e825df0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:20:05 abusead [~abusead@CPE001cf068222b-CM0014e825df0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:23:11 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:23 somnium [~user@adsl-243-27-2.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 18:39:47 somnium` [~user@adsl-65-176-54.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 18:42:31 -!- somnium [~user@adsl-243-27-2.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:42:32 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@153.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:34 -!- somnium` [~user@adsl-65-176-54.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:33 alvatar [~alvatar@153.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:51:48 jao [~user@14.Red-88-6-167.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:51:48 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@153.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:34 alvatar [~alvatar@153.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:55:57 guys when do you use quotation in scheme, for what purposes? 18:56:19 -!- virl [~virl__@178-191-166-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:31 Well, i use for list creation 18:57:37 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:58:06 can you give me specific example 18:58:10 i cant see its use 18:58:14 rudybot: eval (define x '(1 2 3)) 18:58:17 rudybot: eval x 18:58:19 chandler: your sandbox is ready 18:58:19 chandler: ; Value: (1 2 3) 18:58:31 rudybot: eval (define x (1 2 3)) 18:58:32 chandler: error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: 1; arguments were: 2 3 18:59:08 rudybot: eval (define x 3) 18:59:10 m``: your sandbox is ready 18:59:17 rudybot: eval (define y 4) 18:59:31 rudybot: eval '(x y) 18:59:31 m``: ; Value: (x y) 18:59:36 rudybot: eval (list x y) 18:59:37 m``: ; Value: (3 4) 19:00:01 ok i guess it finds its uses 19:00:08 symbolic computation and what not 19:00:29 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:00:59 actually I just dig this out 19:01:01 Symbolic differentiation is of special historical significance in Lisp 19:01:13 It was one of the motivating examples behind the development of a computer language for symbol manipulation. 19:01:39 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 19:05:58 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 19:06:09 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:19 waltermai [~walt@c-68-54-64-79.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:08:18 -!- mmc [~michal@93-39-36-228.ip74.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:11:39 -!- duncanm_ is now known as duncanm 19:12:19 -!- duncanm [~duncan@a-chinaman.com] has left #scheme 19:12:25 do you guys use cdr only or you also use these other stuff like caadr and caddr and other crazy stuff 19:18:27 -!- Delita [~pete@74.64.94.88] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:18:50 Delita [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:23:31 EbiDK [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #scheme 19:28:01 asarch [~asarch@189.188.147.177] has joined #scheme 19:29:28 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90EE1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42:46 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@7-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 19:43:45 schmir [~schmir@p54A90912.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:45:51 awesome... I did not expect to find naked brazilian escorts on the schemewiki 19:46:31 nor did I. 19:46:32 offby1, memo from chandler: Any chance of getting rudybot in #racket? It sure would be nice to have. 19:46:37 where are they, by the way? 19:46:38 *offby1* whistles innocently 19:46:47 Purely for research reasons. 19:46:50 waltermai: They can invoke my continuation any time ;) 19:47:14 I did not expect to find naked brazilian escorts interested in Scheme programming! 19:47:33 I wonder if the website is somehow implemented in scheme... 19:48:14 I did not expect to find ... the Spanish Inquisition 19:48:31 waltermai: yea 19:48:35 *offby1* is nothing if not doctrinaire 19:48:40 schemewiki is running some wiki app 19:48:50 based on guile or gauche or smth 19:49:25 Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!! 19:51:39 http://xkcd.com/16/ 19:53:05 To which I respond http://xkcd.com/772/ 19:53:15 Rather oddly appropriate, I thinkk. 19:54:21 nao entendo... these brasileiras are toying with me. what a cruel joke. 19:55:11 gnomon: not funny. Some people just can't tell a joke. 19:56:06 hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5E373.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:57:10 xkcd is not really funny in general tbh 19:58:11 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 19:58:25 samth [~samth@131.107.204.126] has joined #scheme 19:58:46 m``: well, some of us here think it's the best comic evar. 19:59:07 Different people, different opinions 19:59:48 tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 20:06:45 williambr [~williambr@host81-159-79-92.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:09:37 justicefries_ [~thefry@173-14-6-4-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 20:11:08 -!- williambr [~williambr@host81-159-79-92.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:53 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-219.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:17:28 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-26.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:00 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@153.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:25:54 -!- waltermai [~walt@c-68-54-64-79.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:09 m``: You're not the only one who feels that way. 20:30:54 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:31:43 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 20:33:38 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-254-143.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:33:47 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-254-143.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:33:57 hadronzoo [~user@adsl-162-148-133.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 20:36:40 fowlduck [~fowlduck@2002:cc0f:6d26:0:fa1e:dfff:fed7:9dc1] has joined #scheme 20:38:20 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:41:34 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:43:52 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:52:57 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:58:48 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #scheme 21:04:47 gnomon you do cg? 21:04:59 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 21:06:33 alvatar [~alvatar@75.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 21:08:41 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.147.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:45 14WAA0D4V [~asarch@189.188.147.177] has joined #scheme 21:11:45 5EXAA69ET [~asarch@189.188.147.177] has joined #scheme 21:11:59 -!- 14WAA0D4V [~asarch@189.188.147.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:04 -!- 5EXAA69ET [~asarch@189.188.147.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:29 asarch [~asarch@189.188.147.177] has joined #scheme 21:20:54 pokoko222, no, I do not; and if the Gnomon School of Visual Effects started around 2002, as the creation date of their domain name implies, then my use of the name predates theirs by over a decade. 21:21:41 you lie you should be hanged 21:21:43 :D 21:21:56 Yes, I'm sure. 21:25:37 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:34:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:43:35 -!- pokoko222 [~chatzilla@95.180.189.132] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 21:48:03 somnium [~user@adsl-243-5-252.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 21:52:43 -!- bokr [~eduska@95-30-100-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:53:17 bokr [~eduska@95-30-100-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 21:53:21 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5E373.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:15 adregorochapimen [~adregoroc@bl17-23-96.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 21:55:21 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:55:22 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:29 hey, how are you guys? 21:56:13 one questions, why a lot of univ teach Scheme as a Introduction course to computer science? Why is so important learn a functional language? 22:01:43 can someone help me please? 22:02:57 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:06:59 -!- fowlduck [~fowlduck@2002:cc0f:6d26:0:fa1e:dfff:fed7:9dc1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:11 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 22:11:13 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 22:11:13 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #scheme 22:13:57 adregorochapimen, scheme avoids unneccessary details that make learning CS hard (like pointers and whatnot) 22:14:43 functional programming is good because state is bad. when you learn to use state you will come to see that its very difficult to do properly, a functional program has very little state (or none at all) and is easy to reason about 22:15:39 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adafe9d.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 22:18:11 adregorochapimen, Scheme has virtues beyond the mere fact that it encourages programming in the functional style. It has a very small, clear specification, which helps motivate newcomers to expand their knowledge by reading it piecemeal. There are patterns laced through its design which make it reasonable to guess at how to accomplish certain tasks. 22:18:44 Not enough universities teach Scheme as introduction course to "computer science" 22:19:41 mine did, but then switched to haskell when I graduated 22:19:45 which I approve of 22:20:42 adregorochapimen, perhaps most importantly, Scheme (and other languages in the Lisp family) is a very good language for implementing Scheme *and* other programming languages. By gently revealing how programming languages are built, Scheme often makes programmers more adept at using other programming languages too. This is a rare and precious quality, and it alone is enough to make Scheme worth learning. 22:21:21 (then again, Scheme does not have a monopoly on this quality) 22:21:46 Or perhaps it's just that universities that chose languages like scheme also tend to chose qualified instructors. 22:21:56 s/chose/choose/ 22:22:02 Who ever knows. 22:33:49 davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has joined #scheme 22:38:59 [A 22:39:00 virl [~virl__@178-191-166-48.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 22:39:02 -!- nibiru [nibiru@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-crowwutdrwjnhijd] has left #scheme 22:39:10 nibiru [nibiru@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-crowwutdrwjnhijd] has joined #scheme 22:40:02 It's straightforward to write a Scheme evaluator in Scheme, grounding one's understanding of the way the language works by implementing it. 22:40:10 -!- tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:43:19 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:50:56 justicefries__ [~thefry@174-29-135-132.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:53:54 -!- justicefries_ [~thefry@173-14-6-4-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:54:25 forcer- [~forcer@g224044155.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:56:14 forcer-? Haven't seen that name in a while here. 22:56:19 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.147.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:56:35 -!- forcer [~forcer@g224045230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:57:09 I was just described as "habitually absent" on #emacs. I see a pattern. 22:57:14 -!- forcer- is now known as forcer 22:57:38 Riastradh: Good to see you, though :-) 22:57:50 Hi. 22:58:39 -!- davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:40 tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 23:01:50 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 23:03:17 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.47] has joined #scheme 23:07:11 so i already programe in C, what is the advantage for me of learning Scheme? 23:08:42 you dont have to deal with memory allocation/cleanup in scheme 23:08:59 It's a mix of french and viagra, really. It enlarges your abilities. 23:09:09 but what are the new stuff that i will learn in Scheme? 23:09:47 Depends how far you take it, Higher order functions for a start, maybe macros and continuations if you keep at it 23:09:48 functional programming 23:09:49 Or, less humorously, you actually learn new ways of solving problems, which are applicable in any programming language. Your goal is to learn new stuff. 23:10:29 I have to admit I have no idea what would appeal to a person who has to ask "what is the advantage of learning a second language" ... that thought never occured to me :-) 23:10:33 i want to think faster 23:10:42 i am a bit difficult in programming 23:10:44 For the 10th language, sure... 23:10:58 i spend a lot os time think about the problema 23:11:08 maybe other programmers dont take that time 23:11:18 that is a skill you will develop as you program, it takes a few years to get good at it 23:11:31 roughly 10 years 23:11:49 a lot of time 23:11:50 The better you get at programming, the more time you will spend thinking about the problem relative to the amount of time you spend implementing the solution. 23:11:51 adregorochapimen: No, they just have thought about similar problems often before, and know a bunch of different ways to solve it, in various programming styles. 23:11:59 yes i want to learn a second language 23:13:04 adregorochapimen: This is relevant and explains well the reasons for learning another language: http://norvig.com/21-days.html 23:20:31 hmm 23:21:00 Would you guys say there was an equivalently good and abstract book as SICP that runs with other languages? 23:21:14 *there were equivalentls good books 23:21:36 chandler, i already know how to program 23:21:42 i am looking for a second language 23:21:51 adregorochapimen: did you read the article? 23:21:52 Did you read it? 23:22:03 yes 23:22:04 I "know how to program" and found it interesting 23:22:27 he gives suggestions for categories of languages to learn and why 23:23:16 but learn scheme or haskell, I'd say 23:23:28 or if you must, one of the newfangled jvm functionalish languages 23:24:32 adregorochapimen: The suggestion about learning several different programming languages as a part of how to become a seasoned programmer was surely relevant. 23:25:11 -!- bokr [~eduska@95-30-100-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:25:49 SICP of HTDP? 23:25:59 copumpkin: I can't think of a single one of those newfangled JVM languages that would be worth it. Most of them are a mish-mosh of semantics from other, better-defined languages, and sooner or later you'd have to learn Java to be familiar with the semantics used to define the class library. 23:26:02 adregorochapimen: if you have lots of time, I'd recommend scheme, haskell, prolog, oz (play with a bunch of different concepts in it), agda or coq, ruby or python, an assembly language, and brainfuck 23:26:27 adregorochapimen: and maybe SML 23:26:55 assuming you already have "traditional" experience in c/java/c++/whatever 23:26:57 Heh. That's quite a list. 23:27:01 :P 23:27:15 bokr [~eduska@95-30-100-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 23:27:21 copumpkin, yes i have a lot of time... and i know C 23:27:29 adregorochapimen, one of the biggest gifts you can give yourself is to *NOT* hold on to your belief that you "know how to program". If, instead, you learn each new programming language with an eye to learning how best to use that language to solve the problems to which it is best suited, rather than trying to figure out how to express your knowledge of programming with the syntax of the new language, you will become 23:27:43 ...a toad. 23:27:46 *chandler* thwaps gnomon's hands with a ruler. 23:27:49 adregorochapimen, it is very difficult to do this with your second language, but it gets easier as you learn more. 23:27:52 gnomon++, even though I don't know what I will become 23:28:01 ...become a *much* better programmer. 23:28:02 (gnomon, `...of the new language, you will become') 23:28:10 Thanks. Sorry. 23:28:23 *gnomon* makes a note: 410 bytes and no more. 23:28:31 Maybe, gnomon! 23:28:35 The IRC server could vary it randomly. 23:28:43 You thi 23:28:47 It could! That seems to be the trend today, however. 23:29:09 That's prepost 23:29:37 I was about to demonstrate by switching my hostname between tissot.csail.mit.edu and fsf/member/riastradh, but it turns out that they're the same length. 23:29:48 Precisely the same? 23:29:53 20 octets 23:30:08 Indeed! How wonderfully coincidental. 23:30:22 did I forget anything worthwhile in that list? 23:30:30 Yes, copumpkin: Intercal. 23:30:32 oh, Objective C, how could I forget ;) 23:30:37 lol 23:30:38 copumpkin: forth 23:30:43 oh yes 23:30:46 Forth indeed! 23:30:47 Objective-C? That's just Smalltalk with a lung disease. 23:30:49 how could I forget! 23:30:55 Riastradh: yeah, was just kidding :) 23:30:59 Also: awk. 23:31:01 Yes, but smoking makes you cool. 23:31:15 Forth? 23:31:18 Forth! 23:31:19 factor seems trendier these days 23:31:20 Forth! 23:31:29 Go Forth And Multiply 23:31:43 What nonsense are you folks speaking? RPL is the right choice, of course. 23:31:48 Forth, Factor, pff. 23:31:48 Shirley you mean Multiply Forth Go And? 23:31:57 adregorochapimen, Forth is extremely pertinent because it's easier to implement the programming language than it is to use it well. 23:31:59 lol 23:32:12 I like that characterization, gnomon. 23:32:28 Thank you. I stole it. 23:33:51 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@7-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:34:37 nice 23:34:53 Scheme seems a nice language, and it is ery different from C 23:34:56 adregorochapimen: anyway, lots of good stuff to learn, don't worry! 23:35:03 It certainly can be! 23:35:28 On the other hand, you could also restrict yourself to Pre-Scheme, in which case it is actually very similar to C. That's part of the magic! 23:35:38 adregorochapimen: Scheme is a very good second language. 23:36:09 now lets discuss about books 23:36:14 HTDP or SICP? 23:36:20 #t 23:36:37 Depends on your learning style, I'd say. 23:37:20 HTDP is what kind of person? and SICP? 23:37:51 adregorochapimen: if you think you already know how to program, i think you'll prefer SICP 23:37:55 -!- hadronzoo [~user@adsl-162-148-133.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:38:29 ok 23:38:52 You might also consider The Little Schemer, which is a dialogue; The Scheme Programming Language, which is good if you're a head-first kind of learner; or a copy of Racket and the Racket documentation if you're willing to try by reading reference documentation and trying stuff out until you figure it out. 23:39:58 I learned Scheme through the last of those three methods, and a copy of EOPL v1. 23:40:05 (That might not be typical, though.) 23:40:58 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-133-99.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:41:17 SICP or HTDP dont teach how to program in scheme? 23:41:41 Why would you have that impression? 23:42:28 it is only a question lol, some friends tell me 23:44:54 Well, SICP does take a very 'high level' approach. It deals with how to think about programming rather than just how to write code 23:45:10 It is more general than some books 23:45:51 -!- justicefries__ [~thefry@174-29-135-132.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: justicefries__] 23:45:54 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 23:47:17 and for what i see, is a lot mathy 23:47:52 hmm, yes and no, IMO 23:48:15 it's mathier than many programmers consider themselves to enjoy, which is rather sad 23:48:36 THe foundations of computer programming is very mathy, which one of the reasons that many books cover how to compute factorials.. 23:49:01 (Uh?) 23:49:13 a lot of the time, when SICP covers mathy things, it is not the maths that is important 23:49:32 but the concept that it wants to explain, using the maths to help understand the concept 23:50:52 disagreement? Factorial is a good introduction to recursion, no? 23:53:23 ackermann! 23:53:52 And because it's simple, and can easily be directly translated to machine code, you can explore practicalities like blowing up the stack without removing yourswelf too far from the function? 23:55:14 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:56:01 i am already learning Data Structure in C 23:58:47 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme