00:14:16 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:21:37 PurplePanda [~PurplePan@unaffiliated/purplepanda] has joined #scheme 00:21:44 saccade [~saccade@209-6-36-151.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:24:55 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:33:44 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:35:42 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #scheme 00:37:44 -!- katesmith is now known as dragonsmith 00:38:17 -!- dragonsmith is now known as katesmith 00:39:42 And stop tracking mud across my nice, clean kitchen floor! 00:44:33 -!- mmc [~michal@109.116.194.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:47:47 xissburg [~chatzilla@187.3.134.43] has joined #scheme 00:56:24 -!- vishsingh [~vsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925235557.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 00:57:54 mmc [~michal@109.116.143.238] has joined #scheme 01:07:17 nicktick 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Ex-Chat] 01:45:13 -!- mmc [~michal@109.116.143.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:45:46 -!- proq [~user@71-20-201-84.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:52:59 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-36-151.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:54:31 saccade [~saccade@209-6-36-151.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:54:37 incubot God made everything out of nothing, but the nothingness shows through. 01:56:32 Who made God? 01:56:35 *offby1* ducks 01:57:59 offby1: Al gore 02:03:32 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:53 -!- nicktick [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nicktick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:07 offby1: that's God's problem to worry about. 02:08:40 nicktick [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nicktick] has joined #scheme 02:13:38 god created the tail call. all else is the work of man 02:15:48 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-57-42.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 02:36:34 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:37:00 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #scheme 02:40:05 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:24 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:30 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 02:42:39 god? 02:42:41 ... 02:42:56 anyway, continuations are hard to understand 02:43:09 :) 02:43:59 "tail call" sounds somewhat lewd. 02:44:03 Just saying. 02:44:23 "booty call optimization" is something else entirely 02:45:37 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:48:40 continuations look like just some gotos to me 02:49:28 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-232.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:52:40 timj__ [~timj@e176196155.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:54:17 -!- asarch 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[~saccade@209-6-39-179.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:51:07 Komi [Komi@62.32.129.180] has joined #scheme 09:52:09 mmc [~michal@109.112.11.68] has joined #scheme 10:03:44 hi! 10:04:21 plt's futures use system threads to take advantage of parallelism? 10:09:38 -!- nicktick [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nicktick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:52 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:39 alvatar: As far as i know those are native threads, yes 10:25:04 http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/performance.html?q=future#%28part._effective-futures%29 10:25:05 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2unkr3p 10:25:07 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:26:48 I haven't done parallelism with Scheme before, how is that usually approached? 10:27:37 because SRFI-18 and 21 define multithreading, but not using system threads, all runs in the same thread 10:31:18 i think futures use native threads while (thread..) and such are based on continuations 10:32:38 if you are looking for performance on multi-core systems, probably the best approach is to use futures 10:35:29 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:37:55 jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 10:43:01 Nils^ [steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has joined #scheme 10:45:09 hi people. I have a wrapper function (wrap:Op) which is executed in my program on a keypress. Now the keypress changes dynamically so I re-define it it in a medium complex function. But I get a bad define place error message because the function is too deep down in other define, if, begin, case blocks. How do I change a global function from within a local function? 10:49:01 set! 10:49:19 tried it, but gives another error.. 10:49:26 Komi: thanks 10:49:44 (setter Wrong type argument in position ~A: ~S (1 #) (#) 10:49:53 ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:49:56 Komi: unfortunately, I'm using Gambit, so I don't have futures, which belong to PLT only, apparently 10:50:14 sloyd_: My datatype is another procedure here. 10:51:33 try: (set! global-proc (lambda (arg1 arg2 . argrest) body)) 10:51:36 oh well, its even more bad :) Its not a procdure but (eval-string "(scheme-as-string")) 10:52:25 (set! (procedure arg1 arg2 . argrest) value) is SRFI 17 syntax which does something else 10:55:04 sloyd_: so the first one I should try? 10:55:13 what is body here? 10:56:59 whatever you want to do; you should try (set! global-proc new-proc), where new-proc can be a lambda 11:00:29 alvatar: gambit threads are built also on top of continuations, i don't know if it has some feature or library to use native threads 11:01:19 sloyd_: ok, thanks. I don't know how this happened but I never used lamda before because its totally ommited in our host software. 11:02:00 alvatar: it seems they are not supported 11:02:13 in fact they have been proposed as a google summer of code project 11:02:15 http://dynamo.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/wiki/index.php/GSoC_ideas_list#Native_Threading 11:02:16 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2b84kto 11:02:28 i don't know how recent the list is though 11:10:58 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:17 Komi: hum... yes.. I knew about this SOC project, but there seems to be no library currently handling it 11:12:27 threads are important! 11:12:53 anyway, there is always Termite 11:13:01 ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:13:26 aquanaut` [~user@kroger-p-outside.randomhouse.com] has joined #scheme 11:14:59 -!- sloyd_ [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 11:15:29 sloyd [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has joined #scheme 11:15:48 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:16:48 -!- ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:17:48 -!- aquanaut [~user@kroger-p-outside.randomhouse.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:18:44 jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 11:19:03 ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 11:24:18 eli: could you replace bash with sh in collects/tests/framework/framework-test? 11:35:07 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-112-47.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 11:36:02 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 11:45:06 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #scheme 12:11:26 -!- PurplePanda [~PurplePan@unaffiliated/purplepanda] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:16:42 luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has joined #scheme 12:19:40 anli pasted "trying to make gimp plugin" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/112605 12:20:20 "Error: car: argument 1 must be: pair " 12:22:40 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:23:45 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 12:25:26 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:27:11 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #scheme 12:29:02 Is there some way to debug this? 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You may wish to peruse , which implements all three, as well as syntactic closures. 17:31:47 is it possible for me to have a function that retains its state after it is called? (without using mutation) For example, a counter. (display (counter)) (display (counter))... would display 1, 2, 3, etc. 17:32:23 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 17:32:44 What you describe is mutation, askhader. 17:33:03 The observable behaviour of COUNTER changes from one call to the next. Thus, COUNTER mutates. 17:34:00 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:34:05 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:37:07 Ah I see 17:41:10 Riastradh: oh thanks, i'm going to take a look now :)) 17:43:52 uhmm, this could do with a README or some test files, i don't really know where to start reading 17:44:42 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:44:44 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:51:30 s48-packages.scm gives the organization of the code. sexp.scm may be a good place to start to see how to use it; classify.scm has the central algorithm, where forms are classified to find out whether they are definitions, expressions, keywords, &c.; environment.scm and denotation.scm have the representation of environments. 17:58:34 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #scheme 17:58:40 -!- Nils^ [steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has left #scheme 18:01:07 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:01:17 -!- SinDoc [~SinDoc@213.49.145.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:04:22 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@eng-5-42.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:05:25 Riastradh: why is seal needed? how can it be determined that no further operations on a given syntactic environmnent may take place? 18:06:21 (lambda (x y z) ...) No further bindings can be created for the lambda other than those for X, Y, and Z. (The body of the lambda, where internal definitions go, is a different matter.) 18:07:33 Well, that's not a very good justification, I suppose. The real justification is for the interaction between LET-SYNTAX, LETREC-SYNTAX, and internal definitions. 18:07:34 choas_ [~lars@p5B0DC478.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:08:32 This way, (let () (let-syntax () (define x 5)) x) gives 5. Sealing is the mechanism that makes this work: after the LET-SYNTAX bindings are made, the environment is sealed, and further definitions, such as (define x 5), are made in the enclosing environment. 18:10:36 Riastradh: so actually the x is bound in the "let" environment? 18:11:14 shrewm [~shroom@li54-107.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 18:11:28 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@235.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:34 -!- shrewm [~shroom@li54-107.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:09 Almost. There are three environments, each a descendent of the last: that for the variables bound by LET, that for the internal definitions in the body of the LET, and that for the LET-SYNTAX. 18:12:49 The body of the LET-SYNTAX is processed in the last environment, but definitions processed in that environment cause bindings in the second environment instead, because the last one is sealed. 18:21:49 See the definition of MACROLOGY/STANDARD-SYNTACTIC-BINDING in standard.scm for the primary use of SYNTACTIC-SEAL!. 18:25:50 Please let me know if you have any further questions -- if the code expresses itself poorly, that's my fault. 18:25:54 jonrafkind [~jon@eng-5-42.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:26:42 Riastradh: i've also been looking in other macro-systems so i could get a more general view on how they evolved to the syntax-case system or the non-hygienic macros on CL, what's your opinion on Fexprs? 18:27:00 the code is great, it's me that it can take a while to understand :) 18:28:49 Fexprs have no place in a general-purpose programming language; they turn the language that might have had compositional semantics into a term reduction system that is hard to understand and impossible to compile efficiently. 18:29:30 Interesting, i thought when i saw them they were easier to reason about. 18:29:45 But i must agree on the efficiency side. 18:30:17 Example: If you apply the procedure (lambda (f) (f #t 5 (begin (display "Hello, world!") 3))), what will it do? 18:30:47 We don't know because we don't know if 'f' will evaluate it's arguments? 18:31:18 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 18:31:25 Right. In Scheme, the procedure will at least call DISPLAY. Introduce fexprs and this goes out the window. 18:31:50 That's what I mean when I say that fexprs are hard to reason about. 18:32:08 I guess that would be the reason why the scheme core procedures are special forms and can't be say... returned from procedures. 18:32:32 That's right. When you look at a Scheme program, if you know the lexical environment, you know the evaluation rules for every part of the program. 18:32:57 When you look at a Scheme+fexprs program, you need to know what time it is, and what the state of the world is at that time, before you can even discern what the evaluation rules are. 18:33:30 If we could, that would mean ((if (...) quote ...) arguments) wouldn't be analizable at compile-time to know if the arguments should be evaluated. 18:34:41 That's right -- and the same is true whether it is a human or a machine analyzing the program. The efficiency issue is merely a consequence of the more general issue of reasoning about programs, for the particular case of machines (compilers) trying to reason about programs. 18:35:28 That idea is interesting. 18:35:52 I mean, the fact about reasoning about programs and efficiency. 18:36:46 It's like: "it's not that we are restricting the semantics because of efficiency, it's because if we allow such things you can't really make assumptions and reason about your programs like you should which leads also to efficiency problems". 18:37:17 Exactly. 18:37:24 wingo [~wingo@81.38.186.9] has joined #scheme 18:37:27 yolly 18:37:33 hi, wingo :) 18:38:09 heyas 18:38:10 hlloh? Even if I try to read that upside-down, it doesn't make sense, wingo. 18:38:23 alvatar [~alvatar@235.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:38:28 I always found controversial that restrictions and at the same time other design decissions, like having continuations and the numeric-tower but i guess i see it clearer now. 18:38:50 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:40:03 Riastradh: it is short for yolly holly hey hey hey oink 18:40:17 but yolly holly hey hey hey oink is a bit verbose for normal discourse 18:42:41 It's also far too formal. 18:42:45 .fods ayf uo dn feyf apew noh ku|yf I 18:43:26 OK, I'd better cut that out before I accidentally trigger more of it in the channel. 18:43:46 ahc [~Antti@ip-87-108-75-67.customer.academica.fi] has joined #scheme 18:43:56 Komi, having continuations is not controversial unless you're on the original Fortran committee! Practically all serious programming languages have continuations. 18:45:41 Riastradh: well, i mean... being able to reify and manipulate them 18:46:31 Riastradh: most languages have continuations? like which ones? 18:47:20 Name a programming language, alvatar, other than the original Fortran. 18:47:24 alvatar: in a sense, all languages do have them. 18:47:48 first-class continuations, that you can actually use? 18:47:56 I said `continuation', not `first-class continuation'. 18:48:05 you mean gotos in C for example? 18:48:18 ocaml has continuations, via a library I think 18:48:23 No, goto is irrelevant. With or without goto, C has continuations. 18:49:39 Example: Call, say, printf. What information is given to the printf library routine? A format string, some arguments, and a continuation, telling printf what to do once it is done (namely, to continue in your program). 18:49:44 First-class continuations, i think ruby, smalltalk, icon, sml and scheme, but i'm sure there are more. 18:49:55 ruby still has those? 18:50:12 I thought they were too hard and so they ditched them 18:50:14 sjamaan: yes, they were added again in 1.9. 18:50:17 If C didn't have continuations, then what would printf do when it is done? Halt and catch fire? 18:50:17 ic 18:50:22 I'm sure there's some GOSUB-free variant of BASIC that postdates the original FORTRAN. 18:50:28 (i may be wrong, but i think they were) 18:50:32 I said `serious', chandler. 18:50:47 Oh, true. 18:51:07 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:51:26 That still leaves some sticky cases, of course. For instance, Prolog's continuations are unlike most language's continuations in many respects. 18:52:18 Nevertheless, almost all serious programming languages have continuations. 18:53:35 Hm. What about dataflow languages? 18:53:46 jao [~user@14.Red-88-6-167.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:55:32 Sure, there are some exceptions. Example: Haskell. 18:55:37 Not many, though. 18:56:23 (I'm not actually disputing your statement.) 18:56:23 if you mean by continuations "the rest of the program" or "the representation of next computation step" then yes, most have that 18:56:32 Yes, alvatar. 18:57:31 well Haskell has a continuation monad (i never used Haskell though) 18:57:43 Yes, but that's not a part of the basic evaluation model, Komi. 18:58:24 don't you have continuations as soon as you have a way of representing sequences? 18:58:35 like monads 18:59:14 One might say you have continuations as soon as you have any means of abstracting a block of "code" that may be called from different places - "where you called it from that it will return to" is some dynamic run-time (if hidden) state whenever that reusable unit is "called" 18:59:32 Which is IMHO what Riastradh's printf-in-C example refers to :-) 19:00:01 Whether the language allows recursion or not is perhaps slightly related. I remember when "recursion" was touted as a "language feature" for power users... :-) 19:00:29 That boils down to a restriction on whether the continuation is nestable! 19:23:32 What's new and exciting in the Scheme world? 19:29:01 saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIVE-THIRTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:33:57 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:51 xissburg [~chatzilla@187.3.136.33] has joined #scheme 19:42:07 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@eng-5-42.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:42:35 That much, eh? 19:43:55 Yes, that much. 19:44:02 orly? 19:44:02 jonrafkind [~jon@eng-5-42.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:44:14 Y'mean the R7RS isn't out yet?? 19:47:36 Riastradh: it's summertime, the weather is too nice to hack. there's only time for bug reports :) 19:48:27 Checkie [19648@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 19:48:56 Are you kidding? It is disgustingly hot here in New York; I've been dashing between air-conditioned buildings and trying not to deliquesce in subway stations while waiting for trains. 19:49:08 Riastradh: given you have been talking recently about mutexes threads and such maybe you would like to play with the mosh concurrent library? 19:49:18 This is an excellent excuse to hunker down next to an air conditioner and hack. 19:49:46 What's mosh? 19:49:51 (i never used it but they say in the wiki it's mostly Erlang-like) 19:50:01 http://code.google.com/p/mosh-scheme/ 19:50:30 By the way, the context of the talk about concurrency was that I was hacking so that certain parts of it are safe to interrupt. 19:51:23 See? that thing of hacking gets addictive 19:51:47 Oh, that. I've heard of that, but know nothing about it and have never used it. 19:52:58 Riastradh, I can sympathize with your attempts to avoid deliquescing. It's an ever present risk in weather like this. 19:54:48 Looks like Erlang, Komi. I am a trifle puzzled by the `import-spec' argument to SPAWN. 19:58:22 gnomon, I imagine you have particular trouble with your tentacles and paper bags deliquescing; do paper bags still inflate startlingly, with the appropriate crumpling sounds, when they are soaked with humidity? 19:59:13 It's dinner time! 19:59:21 Sadly, less so; they are a sodden, saddening affair at the momen. 19:59:31 -1s/momen/moment. Gomen nasai. 19:59:44 So let's prepare some delicious food :) 20:00:04 Have fun 20:00:07 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.133.3] has quit [] 20:03:50 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:25 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5B9FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:13:45 -!- ahc [~Antti@ip-87-108-75-67.customer.academica.fi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:20:34 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 20:26:06 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:24 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 20:33:21 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 20:34:48 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 20:44:49 SinDoc [~SinDoc@213.49.145.54] has joined #scheme 20:55:10 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:57:34 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-76-59.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:57:55 -!- alvatar 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