00:00:06 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:00:27 it's complaining about not finding its own library files 00:00:51 and exitting due to 'inconsistency detected' 00:01:15 Am I lucky enough that there's a standard solution hanging around? 00:01:20 Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 00:04:36 -!- Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 00:06:19 tommylommykins, ask the mailing list, and be precise about exactly what you did to elicit the failure, starting from where you fetched the distribution and when. 00:06:43 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.77] has joined #scheme 00:07:18 ah, ok 00:07:38 (And if you didn't fetch 9.0.1 from , try that first.) 00:08:18 Another track: I was trying MIT scheme because I am fed up with useless error messages with SCM 00:08:25 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-222-57.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 00:08:34 Any other implementations worth trying? 00:09:44 You might like PLT Scheme. But please do ask on the MIT Scheme mailing list -- if there's a problem then we ought to fix it. I can't help myself because I don't know anything about MIT Scheme on Windows. 00:10:35 (doesn't know how to use mailing lists :s) 00:10:49 Send mail to mit-scheme-users at gnu dot org explaining your problem. 00:11:01 .oO(I hate mailing lists.) 00:11:27 .oO(I hate thought bubbles.) 00:11:31 *tommylommykins* obliges 00:11:59 .oO(What if they were thought pumpkins rather than thought bubbles?) 00:12:34 .oO(That would be nice. It's pretty hard to find fellow pumpkins to socialize with.) 00:12:36 .oO((((Like ^ this.)))) 00:13:06 .oO(Supposing Riastradh just asked himself whether or not ".oO" are thought pumpkins, I would say to him, if he knew I knew what he was thinking, that they are indeed pumpkins.) 00:13:36 .oO(Lots of thinking going on in here today. I thought this was IRC, where people flame first and think later.) 00:13:39 Quadrescence, what don't you like about mailing lists? 00:14:00 And is your hatred in comparison to an alternative you prefer? 00:14:16 Google wave is clearly superior ;) 00:14:18 except nobody uses it 00:14:26 *Riastradh* hiccups. 00:14:29 Riastradh: Basically everything unless they're used for responding to single persons. I prefer simple forums. 00:14:30 So much more 2.0 though 00:14:37 Simple forums? 00:14:52 Fora! 00:15:04 I hate when people say "fora" :[ 00:15:05 *copumpkin* is Roman 00:15:18 Riastradh: Are you asking because you don't know what I'm talking about? 00:15:23 You steal our words and then mispluralize them! 00:15:51 You mean the horrible web-based things that insist on supplying content and rendering and layout all at once, rather than letting the latter be up to the client? 00:15:52 *copumpkin* went to school a few minutes away from "the" forum 00:16:07 Riastradh: Yes indeed. 00:16:16 copumpkin: did a funny thing happe on the way there? 00:16:21 *happen, even 00:16:39 Adamant: several, but I can't say them in polite company 00:16:48 not schooleum? 00:16:51 What benefit is there to that nonsense? You can always straightforwardly put a web interface on top of a structured mailing list or news group; the converse is non-trivial and unreliable. 00:17:34 most web interfaces on top of mailing lists and newsgroups are horrible. 00:17:34 we should all use telepathy! 00:17:46 at least for doing a forum. 00:17:47 google groups isn't too bad 00:17:53 Riastradh: The principle thing I like is the fact that things can be well organized. 95% of newsgroups are a pain for me. Everything is "flat", and with some interfaces, you can get threaded lists, but threads are flat all together. 00:17:56 for newsgroups, that is 00:18:42 Note: I am not suggesting some bloated phpbb deal. 00:18:43 geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 00:18:47 Adamant, if you have an interface you like for a forum, you could (in principle) use exactly that interface as a front end for a mailing list or a news group. 00:18:51 also, while Usenet is useful, it hasn't really solved the problem of removing obnoxious people from it. not that all web forums have done so, but at least some do a better job. and no, killfiles are not a replacement. 00:19:00 *sladegen* tries to push an rj jack into his ear but fails. 00:19:14 sladegen: you need fiber optics 00:19:26 and a fiber brain 00:19:48 wifi for better interactivity. 00:19:58 why not both 00:20:48 incubot: ha! fire of meaningful discussion extinguisheth! 00:20:50 Quadrescence, what do you mean `flat'? Threads are structured -- that's what the in-reply-to and references header fields are for. 00:20:51 Fire is something close to the ultimate power; just think of Milton: "I could set the building on fire..." 00:21:03 -!- copumpkin is now known as Quintessence 00:21:12 Riastradh: You can't group threads by related topic 00:21:17 *Quintessence* glares at Quadrescence 00:21:18 *sladegen* sets fire to internet. 00:21:27 hmm 00:21:28 *Quadrescence* glares at Quintessence 00:22:00 Quadrescence: use tags! 00:22:00 -!- Quintessence is now known as copumpkin 00:22:17 Quadrescence, why not? 00:22:35 Riastradh: Because that is not how they work. 00:22:56 message -> email address -> dispatch 00:23:42 message sent to mailing list... If I get a reply, how fast can I expect it to come? About the same as a webforum? 00:24:48 Quadrescence, please define `topic' more specifically. If you mean `subject', then of course mail and news can be organized by topic. If you mean a general forum for a particular topic, so that topic can be distinguished with different mail addresses or different news groups, then of course mail and news can be organized by topic. 00:25:12 Riastradh: If you have been to a horrible web based forum, you'd know what I mean 00:25:49 (btw, webforums++) 00:26:05 Google Wave!!!! 00:26:06 Also they don't require me to use my email address 00:26:16 copumpkin: What is your google wave nickname??? 00:26:21 hmm, can't remember 00:26:25 I never use it 00:26:52 now it's crashing on my webkit build 00:26:53 Quadrescence, I don't know whether there is a general consensus on terminology in the web forum world. I have used some in the past, and for some of them, what they call `topic' usually corresponds to what mail and news call `subject'. 00:27:49 Riastradh: By topic, I mean sub-forum. 00:27:55 :s 00:28:05 You do know that news groups are organized hierarchically, right, Quadrescence? 00:28:22 Mail addresses can just as well be if you so desire. 00:29:48 tommylommykins, whether you are using a mailing list, a news group, or a web forum is in general independent of how quickly someone will reply. In the particular case of MIT Scheme's mailing list, it depends on how soon someone who knows about MIT Scheme on Windows sees your message and comes up with a reply. 00:30:45 Riastradh: But that implies things are less likely to get buried on a mailing list than a web forum? 00:31:01 Huh? 00:31:21 copumpkin: I guess I got on goog wave for nothing 00:31:49 Quadrescence: aw sorry 00:31:51 but I can't use it now 00:31:56 :-( 00:31:59 people don't tend to read and reply to two-year-old posts on forums, even when they know the answer 00:32:10 Indeed, it's generally frowned upon 00:32:13 anyway, who needs fora when you have redditus 00:32:23 The same is true on mailing lists and news groups, tommylommykins. 00:32:26 maybe I should make it accusative 00:33:11 So I can reasonably expect a reply in the same way I might expect from a forum? 00:33:53 ie. (for example, I know it's hard to codify )if there's no reply within a week, I probably won't get one? 00:34:01 Riastradh, the one thing missing to enable a perfect correspondence between web forums and usenet and/or mailing lists is a proper MIME header for text written as BBcode. And also possibly Markdown or whatever the kids are using these days. 00:34:05 P(you will receive a reply | you sent an inquiry to a mailing list) = P(you will receive a reply | you sent an inquiry to a web forum) 00:34:53 gnomon, what is BBcode? If it's some sort of formatting markup garbage then I'm glad it doesn't make sense in mail and news. 00:35:16 I would also really like a mail client which could properly (or at least usefully) handle the case when a message refers to multiple other messages, rather than to a single parent. 00:35:41 Riastradh: I think you could reasonably claim that formatting text generally helps readability, no? 00:35:58 Riastradh, that's exactly what it is: a pidgin markup format which unfortunately seems to be absolutely ubiquitous in web forum land, so much so that some users expect it to be interpretable everywhere. 00:36:34 Riastradh: take HTML and replace angle brackets with square brackets, and thats basically BBcode 00:36:39 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.77] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:37:05 tommylommykins, you may get a reply after a week. I don't know, because I'm not the one who deals with MIT Scheme on Windows. (If it were a problem on GNU/Linux or some BSD or Solaris or something I'd have helped you here.) 00:37:07 IJP, and remove about 95% of the tags, leaving only the ones which deal with presentational rather than semantic markup. 00:38:14 Poeir_ [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:39:28 tommylommykins, for messages? No, formatting generally detracts, or distracts, from the message in my experience. For books, journals, dissertations, &c., of course (good) typesetting improves readability. 00:40:10 each person has their own prefered formatting though 00:40:14 BBCode may exist for many reasons, but one good one is that allowing HTML on most fora is a source of endless security problems. 00:40:26 How come? What makes a message different from a book/etc in that regard? 00:40:30 even HTML you have thought you have 'filtered' 00:40:43 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:41:06 my understanding is that is part of the same reason Wikis tend to use their own language for that as well 00:41:25 -!- adzuci [~ada2358@login.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:42:06 adzuci [~ada2358@login.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 00:42:45 or it's the illusion that for average users even html may be too mind blowing... 00:42:54 that might be another reason 00:44:12 tommylommykins, one spends five minutes, or perhaps even an hour, on an email message. One spends a year, or years, on a book, and has professional copy editors and whatnot scrutinize it thoroughly. Which one is going to have more thought and care put into the `formatting'? 00:45:18 oh, the book, obviously, but again, I would make the assumption that formatting does not take significant time to get reasonably right 00:45:28 I'm not interested in answering questions that look like Geocities. If I receive HTML mail it goes straight to the spam bucket. 00:46:18 Are let assignments guaranteed to always execute in order? 00:46:27 oh, indeed, but I think the assumption is that formatting is done reasonably by people who have interest inimproving readability 00:46:34 or just let* ? 00:46:36 given that I've spent 10 minutes checking a business email that took 5 minutes to write and the commercial demands of book editing, and the length of both writings, I wouldn't draw any firm conclusions there. 00:47:26 what the heck are you guys talking about?? 00:47:33 Owner_: I dunno 00:47:37 Quite the contrary, Owner_. First, they are bindings, not assignments. Second, the expressions on the right-hand sides are evaluated in any order that Scheme pleases; but the bindings are created simultaneously, so that (let ((a 5) (b a)) ...) is not equivalent to (let ((a 5) (b 5)) ...), and in fact is an error if A is not bound outside the LET. 00:48:33 Riastradh: thanks, i knew that 00:48:36 Thus, (let ((x 5) (y 3)) (let ((x (begin (display "hello") y)) (y (begin (display "world") x))) (list x y))) can display either "helloworld" or "worldhello", but always returns (3 5). 00:48:48 k 00:49:27 lol @ "i knew that" 00:49:58 I should have asked a less ambiguos question 00:50:17 do you know about the online HTML version of R5RS? 00:50:18 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 00:50:53 it pretty much settles question of the form what does $language_construct do? 00:52:24 tommylommykins, the best way to improve readability in messages on a mailing list or news group is to be clear and concise, and to let the readers render the message how they please, not to say what colour anything is rendered in (will your choice of colours show up in a reverse-video terminal? in a terminal with green text rather than white or black?), what type face your text uses (you might like Times, or Comic Sans; I hate them), and so on. 00:53:42 mm, ok, I think it's time to leave on a registration of my disagreement 00:53:57 Thanks for the help nonetheless 00:53:58 S) 00:54:00 :) 00:54:02 -!- tommylommykins [~tommylomm@nas44-220.york.ac.uk] has left #scheme 00:55:24 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 00:56:32

and contestants decided to run in diverging directions.

but what a

race
that was, ladies &;amp gents! 00:56:39 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:04:34 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.155] has joined #scheme 01:12:05 arcfide: pong 01:15:43 actually, my current gnus setup mangles HTML mail horribly, it's impossible to read 01:17:17 man, the gmail spam filter really sucks 01:17:56 you'd think after flagging every single vietnamese mail i get (> 1 per day) for a few months as spam, it'd figure it out 01:19:53 Well if you keep going to vietnamese porn sites, it confuses google 01:22:07 i don't want to talk to them, just look at them! 01:23:54 oh 01:24:07 no chit chat 01:24:07 would you say that Sussman is the Feynman of scheme? 01:24:19 and reified continuations are the quantum physics of programming? 01:25:00 incubot: oh, was tommylommykins one of those WYSIWYG trolls that have peopled the world, so to speak? 01:25:03 So you could build (to continue the Python-speak) tuples, lists, strings, or anything that a procedure of two arguments could produce? 01:25:37 vmixey: never occurred to me; what similarity do you find in continuations and quantum physics: jumps? 01:25:56 they're flipping weird 01:26:01 that was about as deep as I thoughd 01:26:02 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:26:06 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@c-98-231-201-176.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:26:38 jumps is better probably 01:26:51 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:27:03 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:27:42 *jcowan* unvanishes. 01:27:52 vmixey: yeah, i'm not sure continuations suffer from anything analogous to quantum indeterminacy, for instance; unless the implementation of unwind-protect sucks, for instance. 01:28:01 hehe 01:28:18 Well, unrestricted continuations and the 'many worlds' interpretation do have something in common. 01:28:18 jcowan, memo from gnomon: Thanks for "ISO-IR-68 to Unicode". I just spent a couple of hours referring to it, and only when I wanted to cite it did I notice that you'd written it. Bravo, sir. 01:28:29 ooh yes 01:28:58 jcowan: interesting; and, if sussman is to be believed, so might the amb operator. 01:29:17 Indeed. 01:30:36 doc_who [~doc_who@c-98-231-201-176.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:27 -!- Owner_ [~b83b11d0@gateway/web/freenode/x-hflxxeuwrqrupqem] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:33:25 -!- geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:33:30 geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 01:34:17 rahuljha [~rahuljha@122.166.180.19] has joined #scheme 01:35:49 minion: tell gnomon I totally forgot about writing that mapping table. 01:35:50 gnomon: watch out, you'll make krystof angry 01:36:35 minion: memo for gnomon: I totally forgot about writing that mapping table, but I'm glad it was useful. 01:36:36 Remembered. I'll tell gnomon when he/she/it next speaks. 01:37:27 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-87-228.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:41:18 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:45:51 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:46:59 asarch [~asarch@187.132.131.58] has joined #scheme 01:48:14 -!- rahuljha [~rahuljha@122.166.180.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49:05 jcowan: have you had a chance to look at the ballot yet? 01:49:15 Nope, but I will now. 01:49:50 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-106.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:52:12 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:37 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:02:10 _danb_ [~user@124-168-128-117.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:02:31 untouchable [~untouchab@pool-141-154-204-194.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:06:16 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 02:15:57 how do i rename a file im working on in edwin? 02:18:48 emma: sometimes edwin has gnu-emacs-like bindings; if so, try C-x C-w. 02:19:05 okay 02:21:04 lisppaste: url 02:21:04 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 02:22:06 klutometis pasted "Cartesian product" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100333 02:22:23 which is preferable: a recursive or fold-based cartesian product? 02:22:43 or does someone have a superior cartesian product algorithm i haven't thought of? 02:24:56 QinGW1 [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has joined #scheme 02:26:00 I know this is not your fault but emacs is just dreadful and edwin is just dreadful. 02:26:13 after i've used DrScheme it feels like making me cry. 02:26:25 drscheme > emacs?!?!?! 02:26:31 oh man so much better. 02:26:39 As a scheme IDE 02:27:02 It's enough to make me laugh to think anyone would even question that. 02:27:08 klutometis annotated #100333 "whoops: fold -> cons" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100333#1 02:27:22 emma you'll get used to it quickly :) 02:27:34 especially after feeling around it, then coming another day 02:27:42 use vi! 02:28:00 *foof* refuses to give up paredit + scheme-complete 02:28:16 I would love it if I got paredit inside Edwin 02:28:21 is that possible?! 02:28:28 emma: if i had to choose between edwin and emacs i'd take emacs; but what properties vex you so? 02:28:48 klutometis: well i have split edwin into two windows. with C-x 2 02:28:56 on the top i am putting in the definitions. 02:29:01 vmixey: Hm. Maybe a two word Google search would answer that question. 02:29:05 on the bottom i have the *scheme* buffer 02:29:21 then i use C-x C-e to see the result of what i've done in the top window in the bottom window. 02:29:25 is that right so far? 02:29:38 well in the bottom window there is like a ton of white space between any results, and nothing even scrolls 02:29:44 i usually do a C-x C-b to send the whole buffer; but, yeah, sounds about right. 02:29:51 you have to go down to the result window and use the arrow keys to search for any results. 02:30:25 not sure about edwin, but emacs scrolls automically to the bottom, unless you've set the point somewhere else. 02:30:30 that would drive me crazy, too. 02:30:33 you also cannot cut and paste two or from Edwin. That is, from my perspective, a horrible bug. 02:30:56 really? even with mouse selection + middle button paste? 02:31:16 really! 02:31:20 there isn't even any mouse selection. 02:31:26 it can't even mouse select. 02:31:55 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:32:03 so imagine if you have been using DrScheme how primitive and frustrating Edwin is. 02:32:04 that is bizarre; like i said, i stay away from edwin. not sure what the politics of edwin are, but i consider to be an emacs-foetus not quite yet born. 02:32:24 you can run mit-scheme's repl inside emacs... if edwin vexes you on such trivial features. 02:32:50 emacs is so comfortable for programming R, graphviz, python, etc. etc. that it's only natural to use it for scheme. YMMV. 02:32:51 the best thing would be if maybe the MIT scheme people would hire some of the talented PLT people to help them out. 02:33:00 though graphic scmutils stuff may not work then ;( 02:33:06 I think edwin predates mice and clipboards ... :) 02:33:10 Like to provide professional development and training in how to make an application. 02:33:29 emma: don't waste your time with edwin; either emacs or an ad hoc thing like drscheme. 02:33:59 edwin has mouse, scroll-down, etc.; but is applicable to any conceivable language. 02:34:07 drscheme is ad-hoc. 02:34:24 s/edwin has/emacs has/ 02:34:25 sorry 02:34:38 emma: ... "hire"? I doubt that's going to happen. 02:35:08 let's not forget that mit-scheme is not mit product. it just happened to be written by some people hanging around mit campus and eating their toe nails. 02:35:12 And if you like DrScheme, why not just use PLT? 02:35:52 chandler: I have to use mit scheme because I'm working through SICM (structure and interpretation of classical mechanics) which depends upon the scmutils. 02:36:23 Ah. 02:37:04 It looks like the top of the kill ring is placed onto the X selection buffer, for what it's worth. 02:37:43 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-87-228.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:37:45 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-87-228.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:42:53 anyone see this? dijkstra on lisp: http://kazimirmajorinc.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-dijkstra-blogged-about-lisp.html 02:42:55 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2umx2d3 02:43:29 i'd always wondered what he thought about lisp; and am surprised he and mccarthy weren't bigger pals. 02:48:45 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:16 sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-236-232.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:51:46 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-195-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:52:39 timj_ [~timj@e176195251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:54:14 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176194123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:54:46 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:55:26 emma: There was a project once to translate sicm into plt, but I don't know how it ended up. Rebecca Frankel was doing that, so you can try to contact her. 02:55:45 eli: okay cool 02:55:54 klutometis: "ad hoc"? It certainly has consumed considerable work over many years. 02:57:16 emma: Re edwin vs emacs -- emacs is bound to be better just by the huge number of people using it, but you need to invest in learning and configuring it. In the default configuration, emacs is worse than vi (IMO). 03:00:25 *chandler* has just discovered the joys of PLT's `command-line'. 03:00:27 -!- cky [~cky@cpe-065-190-148-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: cky] 03:00:43 mzscheme? 03:00:45 cky [~cky@cpe-065-190-148-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:01:35 -!- cpr420 [~cpr420@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Vision[0.9.7-H-090423]: i've been blurred!] 03:01:43 emma: if that's in response to me, I'm referring to the command-line parsing utility. 03:01:57 rudybot: doc command-line 03:01:59 chandler: your scheme sandbox is ready 03:02:00 chandler: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/Command-Line_Parsing.html#(form._((lib._scheme%2Fcmdline..ss)._command-line)) 03:03:18 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 03:03:41 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:03 jao: ping 03:06:51 -!- untouchable [~untouchab@pool-141-154-204-194.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:07:14 eli, pong 03:08:12 jao: You were almost the first case of an external commit getting in as-is, using git's distinction between a commit's author and its committer. 03:08:39 But I need to edit the log message -- the whole email got in it... 03:09:01 eli, oops. was that my fault? 03:09:35 I'm not sure, and I'm too git-tired to start looking into it... 03:10:37 fair enough. i just attached the result of git format-patch to a regular email, fwiw. 03:11:58 jao: Ah, I figured it out -- the result of format-patch is supposed to be emailed directly (as `git send-email' does), but you just attached it. I removed the bogus first line ("From ...") and it worked fine. 03:13:10 Now I should figure out if we should ask people to add "signed-off-by" lines... 03:13:22 i see. 03:14:20 would using send-email be better? some explanatory out-of-band text seems useful at any rate. 03:14:59 -!- pastorn [~alexander@aoeu.csbnet.se] has left #scheme 03:15:33 (maybe git send-email already allows that (part of the message not in the log)) 03:18:37 jao: I've written a bit about it, but it will probably take me a few rounds of similar interactions to have foolproof instructions. 03:18:46 eli: sorry, ad-hoc w.r.t. to supported languages; within its domain, of course, drscheme is non-pareil. 03:19:28 jao: What I did when I sent patches was to first mail them to me to see that it looks fine, then send them to the intended recipient. Overall, it's basically like `format-patch' except that it mails the result. 03:20:13 eli, ok. i'll see to do that in the future. 03:20:18 klutometis: If you're talking about languages other than (PLT's variant of) Scheme, then it's not ad-hoc -- it's just non-existent. 03:21:38 jao: Re the signed off by thing -- you get that with a `-s' flag when you commit. At least for git and for the kernel they require that as a kind of an approval that you're willing for the work to be included and other such blah blahs. 03:22:28 eli, note taken. 03:23:25 -!- vmixey [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:26:18 03:26:18 gnomon, memo from jcowan: I totally forgot about writing that mapping table, but I'm glad it was useful. 03:27:11 minion, memo for jcowan: remind me to ask you about your involvement with APL sometime. I would really love to hear the story. Or was your work on the table purely a result of your involvement with the Unicode process? 03:27:11 Remembered. I'll tell jcowan when he/she/it next speaks. 03:27:16 Thanks, minion. 03:28:04 eli: actually, did you see this rather bizarre python<->scheme compiler someone wrote to try to support python under drscheme? http://www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/scheme2003-ms.pdf 03:31:07 klutometis: Yes, I know the work, and I know the person who did it. I can promise you that any specific drscheme support was far from the focus of that work. 03:32:02 klutometis: But one thing that DrScheme gives you with *any* language that is read and ultimately compiled to Scheme, is the syntax-level tools (eg, showing the binding arrows) -- that would certainly work with any language that is implemented this way. 03:32:25 But I wouldn't categorize this as actual support for programming in the language. 03:32:34 s/programming/editing code/ 03:36:23 yeah, the binding arrows are brilliant; they're a superset of a call-graph, i understand, in that it draws edges for every invocation of a bound variable, and not just procedure calls? 03:36:35 whee 03:36:37 boston soon :) 03:36:40 (sorry to interrupt) 03:39:48 boston? 03:40:36 elly: how did apartment hunting go? 03:40:52 klutometis: it is continuing to go okay. Somerville apartments are not hard to come by, it seems. 03:41:28 elly: I think there is a reason for that 03:41:37 elly: that's good news; drop a line when you're finally settled. i've been looking forward to coffee for like six months ;) 03:41:44 Adamant: cambridge is too expensive? 03:41:51 klutometis: haha, oh wow :P now I have performance anxiety! 03:42:19 klutometis: I thought Somerville was a bit crime-ridden 03:42:29 elly: nothing like a little caffeine, then! 03:42:35 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:42:41 but I've never been to Boston and I'm relying on the words of former residents, so 03:44:30 Adamant: meh; just stay away from the east side. it's probably ivy-league snobbery, anyway. sort of like the new-jersey/new-york dichotomy. 03:45:00 klutometis: it was from a born-there resident, actually 03:45:05 oh, interesting 03:45:08 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 03:45:16 but who knows. stuff changes. 03:46:37 yeah; i think the irish hoodlums are mostly harmless, anyway. they're just in it for a little GTA. 03:46:55 the game or the crime 03:47:09 if they're trying to play that game in real life, not so harmless :P 03:49:07 isn't there something preferable about car thieves over run-of-the-mill gangstas? talking lesser of two evils, here. 03:49:09 Mmm...Vietnamese porn.... 03:49:32 Quadrescence: Sorry, it's just that you hit one of my highlight keywords 03:50:51 http://i.imgur.com/l9vsn.jpg 03:52:22 None of them look very Vietnamese to me. 03:52:38 Although you are clearly into freakier shit than me. 03:53:48 cpr420 [~cpr420@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 03:53:55 I am not into vietnamese porn sorry 03:54:25 anyone feel a kick coming on? 03:54:58 No, surely not. 03:56:53 empt [~empt@122.193.12.195] has joined #scheme 03:57:24 -!- empt [~empt@122.193.12.195] has left #scheme 03:57:37 Lost has a rape dungeon? Maybe I should have been following afterall. 03:58:29 If that's the show's main draw card, that's pretty much a sign it's jumped the shark. :-P 04:02:31 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.131.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:04:52 LOL @ that picture 04:06:31 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-7-135.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:12 The guy pouring the milk looks like jimmy kimmel 04:15:32 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 04:16:02 -!- sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-236-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:19:08 jengle [~jengle@64.252.19.176] has joined #scheme 04:30:05 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:30:17 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 04:34:05 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-7-135.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:34:22 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-236-232.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:37:19 -!- jengle [~jengle@64.252.19.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:37:58 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 04:38:24 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-254-201.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 04:38:43 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 04:39:03 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-87-228.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:45:49 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:08 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 04:51:28 hohoho [~hohoho@EM114-48-80-125.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:52:29 hohoho_ [~hohoho@2002:7230:507d:6:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has joined #scheme 04:54:31 -!- hohoho_ [~hohoho@2002:7230:507d:6:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:52 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@EM114-48-80-125.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:08:24 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 05:14:43 emma, when I said `MIT Scheme offices' earlier, I was being facetious. Nobody is paid to work on it directly, and nobody is trying to market it. If you are volunteering to improve Edwin, patches are welcome (and you can write them in Scheme, even, not in some horrible language such as elisp or C). 05:21:34 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:53 klutometis, there are no `politics of Edwin'. It's a clone of GNU Emacs 18. If that's an Emacs fetus, then I wonder what you consider Emacs to have been for the first decade of its existence... 05:25:21 a twinkle in rms' eye 05:25:33 emma, for what it's worth: Just like in Emacs, M-w copies from, and C-y pastes to, the X clipboard. If you have split Edwin into two windows, of which one is for the *scheme* REPL buffer, and you use C-x C-e in the other window (for, say, a file with your definitions), the *scheme* window will scroll if the point is at the end of the buffer. 05:28:38 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:30:39 what the heck was that 05:30:54 Riastradh comes in, talks to an imaginary person named emma and then leaves? 05:32:44 emma was here before 05:32:50 I guess he didn't notice that she was gone 05:35:10 someone doesn't have tab completion 05:35:38 but he joined 3 hours after the convo took place 05:35:49 I dunno, it was just weird 05:36:11 *jonrafkind* console Thomas_H 05:36:14 consoles* 05:37:15 emma is here now 05:37:16 it was like he had a dream about someone taking a shit on edwin, sleep walks over to the computer, types in his rebuttal and then walks back to bed 05:40:36 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 05:40:40 Thomas_H: Boo! 05:41:03 AHH! 05:41:26 booya! 05:42:06 -!- geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:43:27 geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 05:45:43 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:45:56 Thomas_H, this is common practice on IRC, in lieu of discussion by email. The magic is at . 05:46:48 *Riastradh* sleep-walks back to bed. 05:47:25 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 05:47:49 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@adsl-99-50-226-43.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 05:47:58 that guy is hilarious 05:53:12 I love Riastradh 05:55:01 And when I was talking about him sleepwalking all I could imagine was him with a sleeping bag rolled out in CSAIL 05:55:06 -!- geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:55:54 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-254-201.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:55:55 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-254-201.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:00:21 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-222-57.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!] 06:03:17 geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 06:03:23 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:06:38 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:08:40 ouch 06:09:03 *klutometis* reels from Riastradh's harsh rebuke 06:09:03 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:08 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-109-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:14:36 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-20-82-64-26-107.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 06:15:11 which is to say, i think there is a politics of edwin; in deference to mit-dom, i usually refrain from mentioning it. 06:15:37 it seems, however, that many alpha schemers cut their teeth on mit-scheme/edwin. 06:17:13 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-51-162.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 06:22:02 -!- WormDrink [~WormDrink@196-210-40-30.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:22:25 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.157.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:22:31 WormDrink [~WormDrink@196-210-40-30.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:24:11 -!- geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:24:13 Lemonator [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:24:25 geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 06:27:13 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:33:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-109-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:36:06 is it me, or on linux c++ is there no better way to specify options like O_NOATIME than: 06:36:12 #define openmode_join(mode, n) ((mode) | (_Ios_Openmode)(n)) 06:36:35 -!- Lemonator [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:37:02 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:37:35 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit 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07:07:38 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 07:16:53 chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has joined #scheme 07:20:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 07:21:55 -!- foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:27:56 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 07:34:18 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34:24 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 07:36:51 -!- wingo [~wingo@81.38.179.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:47:12 -!- rmrfchik [~rmrfchik@linuxhacker.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:47:55 rmrfchik [~rmrfchik@linuxhacker.ru] has joined #scheme 07:53:52 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 07:55:31 -!- geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:02:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:35 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 08:05:38 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:09:40 evening, copumpkin. :) 08:09:46 ohai! 08:13:03 How goes? 08:14:57 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-35-82-250-198-48.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 08:19:12 IJP_ [~Ian@host86-135-220-180.range86-135.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 08:19:22 geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 08:20:51 -!- IJP_ [~Ian@host86-135-220-180.range86-135.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:21:01 -!- IJP [~Ian@host86-183-36-169.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:21:42 lisptastic [~user@76.177.227.49] has joined #scheme 08:27:31 -!- geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:30:09 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 08:31:30 geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 08:42:05 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:43:53 -!- geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:45:43 Anybody know the a function like "substring", but for lists? 08:46:42 dzhus [~sphinx@95-26-253-9.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 08:47:57 trivial composition of srfi-1 `take' and `drop', I'd imagine 08:48:46 What to do take and drop do? 08:49:24 take from a list and drop from a list 08:49:33 drop a few then take a few 08:49:42 geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 08:49:43 take returns the first n elements; drop returns all but the first n elements; qv srfi-1; not a trivial composition, involves arithmetic as well 08:49:55 copumpkin: live dangerously - take two fews, then drop a few :) 08:50:22 I'm suprised there's not a general subsequence function in the library. 08:50:48 indices are the devil 08:51:06 lists aren't vectors. 08:51:18 to me? 08:51:40 Yeah, but, you need to look at you're data frequently to verify it's doing what you want. 08:51:54 Even if it's unordered I think it'd be helpful. 08:53:32 Wait, take does what I want. My bad. 08:53:40 copumpkin: paraphrasing you 08:53:54 oh :) 08:54:00 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:54:31 -!- geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:56:17 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 08:56:29 Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 09:00:31 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:01:49 ve [~a@guava.vm.bytemark.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:02:30 geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 09:04:33 p0a, there is :idle event for game loop cycles. 09:04:40 Ops. 09:08:45 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 09:15:20 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 09:16:06 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.7] has joined #scheme 09:22:03 -!- geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:08 geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 09:23:47 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-51-162.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:38:47 -!- foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:39:01 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 09:44:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:46:08 -!- geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:47:48 geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 09:55:08 string-contains 09:55:34 no it doesn't 09:56:16 Wrong buffer, my bad. 09:56:55 :) 09:58:55 -!- geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:00:05 geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 10:04:42 -!- QinGW1 [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:08 -!- geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:08:01 ve_ [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 10:09:04 string-search-forward 10:09:08 b 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:02 geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 10:12:23 -!- ve_ [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:16:15 -!- geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:39 -!- foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:22:53 geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 10:24:41 haole [~ivan@187.23.86.52] has joined #scheme 10:25:03 does anybody knows how to compile scheme stuff with plt? the documentation didn't help and i can't compile even an hello world 10:26:13 alvatar [~alvatar@59.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 10:27:10 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 10:31:07 haole: That depends on what you mean by "compile" -- what are you trying to do? 10:31:42 eli, i'm trying to organize my code in modules... so, i placed my code inside a (module foo ...) construct, and tried to compile 10:32:08 but i need srfi/1, and it tells me this: compile: unbound identifier in module in: srfi/1 10:32:13 Which version are you using? 10:32:17 4.2.2 10:32:24 How are you trying to compile? 10:32:52 mzc --make mysource.ss 10:33:56 That's how you should use it, so you're probably missing the requires. 10:34:01 Can you run the code? 10:34:20 (And BTW, you should use `#lang' instead of `(module ...)'.) 10:34:22 yes... but should i need to know the deps of my requires? 10:34:29 No. 10:34:34 how do i do that? #lang scheme/base? 10:34:47 If you can run the code, then you should also be able to compile it. 10:35:04 Yes, `#lang scheme/base' replaces (module foo scheme/base ...) 10:36:06 i did what you suggested... now, the top lines look like this: #lang scheme/base || (require srfi/1) || (require srfi/13) 10:36:11 and mzc gives me this: compile: unbound identifier in module in: mcadr 10:36:17 what a tough guy :D 10:36:53 And you're saying that you can run the code? 10:37:07 Can you post the code? 10:37:21 yeah... it's not a pretty one, though :D 10:37:27 i can run the code normally 10:37:36 Is it one file? 10:37:41 i wanted to compile to see how good it performed 10:37:52 no, i'm trying the most simple file that i get 10:37:59 one of my source's file 10:38:08 one that doesn't have any internal deps 10:38:21 If you have one file, then post it somewhere and I'll have a look -- or just mail me (eli@barzilay.org). 10:38:59 But JFYI, compiling it is not going to make it faster -- it only saves the time it takes it to compile it which mzscheme does in any case. 10:39:27 haole pasted "elements" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100345 10:39:38 there 10:40:17 oh.. so, when i send things to the interpreter (through emacs), it is getting compiled anyway? 10:40:40 Yes, always. 10:41:14 oh, well... but i will need to package it eventually... is it already possible to use r6rs with plt? 10:46:47 haole: I don't know how you it runs for you, but your code *is* using `mcadr' without requiring the scheme/mpair module, 10:46:52 and even if it did, that module doesn't provide `mcadr', 10:47:04 and even if it did, that module doesn't provide `mcaddr', 10:47:31 and even if it did, you're using `cdddr' but it seems that you're using mutable lists there, so it won't work. 10:47:42 eli, it is getting it from somewhere... i swear it works here, but i'm gonna try fixing this issues 10:47:43 -!- geckosenator [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:48:21 Well, I don't see anything in the file that could get it, and mzscheme doesn't see anything too... 10:50:01 eli, that did it 10:50:15 maybe i was including some crazy files in another source 10:50:25 or maybe the srfis were getting them for me 10:50:32 thanks! 10:50:43 now, could you give me a tip? 10:51:25 i'm developing a library for myself... i have a folder with several sources... how should i package it? i was thinking of using neste modules, to get something like library/specific, but i guess that's the wrong way, right? 10:53:13 geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 10:53:55 haole: The srfis wouldn't have given you these bindings. 10:54:20 As for your code organization -- it's all up to you. 10:55:11 You can have multiple files with a main file that provides "everything", or you can have a sequence of files where each builds on its predecessor and re-provides stuff from it as well as new things. 10:55:49 The only real convention we have is taht modules in a "private" directory are not considered part of your public API, but that's only a convention and it is not enforced. 10:56:11 eli, what do you mean by "private directory"? 10:58:31 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:17 haole: If your files are in some "foo" directory, then I'm talking about files in "foo/private/whatever" -- those are considered part of your implementation by convention. 11:00:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 11:00:49 eli, so, i could make a source with all the provides and which (loads the other sources, and then compile this file... is that right? 11:01:35 i guess my doubt is: how do i deal with internal dependencies? is it with "load"? 11:03:42 haole: Ah, *that's* you're question. No -- don't use `load'. It's almost always guaranteed to be a bad idea. 11:04:15 ejs [~eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #scheme 11:04:33 i guess that this doubt of mine is the root of my wrong doings :)... if not with load, what should i use? 11:09:11 -!- ejs [~eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:09:38 ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 11:13:00 haole: Yes, if you've used `load' in some way, you could have gotten yourself into some mess where things were defined when they shouldn't have -- the semantics of a module should not change, so that might have happened if (for exampe) you were doing stuff on the REPL. 11:13:36 -!- geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:13:36 But the bottom line is to just use (require "some-file") -- this is always better than using `load'. 11:14:50 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #scheme 11:14:54 eli, ok thanks for all the info 11:20:18 geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #scheme 11:29:30 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@95-26-253-9.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30:22 -!- geckosen1tor [~sean@h-66-134-142-18.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:36:34 m811 [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 11:46:36 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 11:47:59 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #scheme 11:58:53 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:00:22 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:07:47 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 12:09:57 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:14:03 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@c-98-231-201-176.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:14:06 doc_who [~doc_who@c-98-231-201-176.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:15:10 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:27 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 12:16:15 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:16:15 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:16:15 -!- kg4qxk [~bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:16:15 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:16:15 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:16:15 -!- drhodes [~none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:18:08 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 12:18:09 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 12:18:09 kg4qxk [~bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 12:18:09 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #scheme 12:18:09 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 12:18:09 drhodes [~none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 12:24:31 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:24:40 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 12:34:35 -!- incubot [~incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:41 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:52:21 ejs [~eugen@135-32-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 12:54:29 incubot [~incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 12:55:35 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 12:56:00 pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:56:37 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:57:00 incubot: why is there theory of truth and not theory of falsehood if the former is always the case? 12:57:05 Just another bit of recycled falsehood. 12:57:13 -!- ejs [~eugen@135-32-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:57:35 make falsehood and not truth! 13:06:51 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:27 xwl [~user@123.115.96.151] has joined #scheme 13:37:22 ejs [~eugen@241-117-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 13:39:12 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:41:26 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:47 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 13:51:08 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 13:55:09 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-51-162.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 13:57:55 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:59:06 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:45 -!- ejs [~eugen@241-117-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:09:58 ejs [~eugen@241-117-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 14:13:25 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC599F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:13:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:14:13 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 14:24:45 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 14:26:20 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:28:39 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 14:30:53 wingo-pi [~wingo-pi@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:38:04 luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 14:40:26 fschwidom [~fschwidom@p5B26A84D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 14:42:41 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:44:05 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 14:44:37 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:56 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 14:51:39 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:25 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:49 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@87.246.29.84] has joined #scheme 14:58:18 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@87.246.29.84] has quit [Client Quit] 14:58:24 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@87.246.29.84] has joined #scheme 14:58:26 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@87.246.29.84] has quit [Client Quit] 14:58:30 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:00 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.29.84] has joined #scheme 15:00:01 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:06:43 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 15:15:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-54.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:19:42 -!- Poeir_ [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:57 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:30:54 sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-185-166.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:32:27 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-236-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:33:46 hi! 15:34:13 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 15:45:50 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-109-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:48:12 they still haven't fixed the cursor bug in carbon emacs 15:48:24 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:51 They are slackers 15:48:57 it's been there since at least 23.1 and is annoying enough that i'd rather edit with simpletext :/ 15:49:13 i.e. release critical as far as i'm concerned 15:49:54 Did you file a bug? 15:50:28 no, it's known 15:50:41 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2337363/reverse-video-cursor-in-emacs 15:50:56 i don't see much about it on the list, though that list is a bit of a firehose 15:51:56 actually, just setting the cursor to hard-coded white-on-black regardless of the syntax highlighting underneath makes it readable 15:52:28 no wait.. it went away again :/ 15:52:32 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:52:35 *sigh* 15:53:00 question: what would you do to make this more elegant?: (map (lambda (e) (if (my-type? e) (do-something e) e)) lis) 15:53:03 time to reinstall the ancient carbon emacs package and wait for 23.3 15:53:06 saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 15:53:45 (a map where only elements satisfying a predicate get transformed, the rest remains untouched) 15:54:02 alvatar: nothing 15:54:15 I think it's fine as it is. 15:54:20 I was thinking of a macro, and colling it map-cond 15:54:22 ok 15:54:32 well at least I know that's more or less idiomatic 15:54:38 thanks offby1 15:55:27 if you find yourself writing 25 calls just like that, then maybe (define (map-if predicate func . seqs) (apply map (lambda (e) (if (my-type? e) (func e) e)) seqs)) 15:55:47 I really don't think there's any need for a macro. 15:56:13 offby1: ok 15:56:18 offby1: I'm using it a lot in my code 15:56:22 foof: Aquamacs 15:56:27 it calls you 15:56:36 offby1: not *very* much, but enough to feel like it could be generalized 15:56:37 with current continuation 15:56:59 alvatar: that's really an aesthetic issue, and you're the best person to decide if it's worth refactoring. 15:57:04 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-254-201.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:09 well, you and the people who wind up reading your code in the future 15:57:24 *offby1* harkens to the call of the Aquamacs 15:57:29 echoing across the water 15:58:08 offby1: :) yes it's mostly aesthetic, I agree. But as I happen to discover srfis, macros, and code of people doing things in nice ways I wanted to ask, as this seems a pretty common pattern 15:58:09 it is very Aqua and Mac'y though, more than Carbon Emacs, IIRC 16:00:03 offby1: actually I was thinking of the macro specially because i know better how to handle the possibility of several conditions (like different types and their respective code), something like a fusion of map and cond 16:02:30 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC599F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:04:34 -!- pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:07:35 offby1: thanks for your time :) have to leave now! 16:07:37 o/ 16:07:43 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:07:48 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@59.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:08:43 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:15:51 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-51-162.dip.osnanet.de] has 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20:15:59 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:22:16 arcfide [~arcfide@adsl-99-50-226-43.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:26:45 hum... kind of newbie question: 20:27:30 why exactly you would prefer: (define (map-if predicate func . seqs) (apply map (lambda (e) (if (predicate e) (func e) e)) seqs)) 20:27:46 to: (define (map-if pred func . l) (map (lambda (e) (if (pred e) (func e) e)) l)) 20:28:08 apply to a list, vs. just calling the function 20:29:54 alvatar: you wouldn't. 20:30:15 arcfide: directly calling is better, isn't it? 20:30:45 Yes. 20:31:04 However, there are times when you receive your input as a list, and in those cases, it might make sense to use apply. 20:31:54 yes I understand that 20:32:29 arcfide: thanks 20:33:21 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:23 brb 20:34:45 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit 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[~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 22:32:24 isn't this a bizarre instance of a self-correcting algorithm? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt5wRG6CQTQ#t=1m4s 22:32:29 if only my programs were as flexible 22:32:36 jengle [~jengle@64.252.19.176] has joined #scheme 22:33:50 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 22:36:55 -!- fschwidom [~fschwidom@p5B26A84D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 22:41:19 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 22:49:02 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 22:53:28 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 23:02:29 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:34 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-37.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:02:49 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-37.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:02:53 eli, pong 23:03:17 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:06:21 -!- wingo [~wingo@81.38.179.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:13:47 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 23:22:46 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-185-166.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:23:55 jao: Does the directory have a "scheme" collection? 23:24:23 Also, did you empty the directory before you built? (I remember stow-related problems because of it.) 23:24:43 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:25:00 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: ros3] 23:25:59 -!- saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIVE-THIRTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:27:27 eli, what directory? the installation one? 23:27:37 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:27:50 i did remove it before building, yes 23:28:39 eli, and yes, there's a /usr/local/stow/racket/lib/plt/collects/scheme directory 23:29:11 (with what looks like the expected contents) 23:29:27 jao: And are you sure that you're running the correct executable? No PLTCOLLECTS set etc? 23:29:52 eli, i got the same error by calling mzscheme with a full path 23:30:32 and no, i don't have a PLTCOLLECTS set 23:30:47 Very strange. 23:31:22 I can't think of any reason that it will happen. 23:31:50 Are you sure it's not a permissions issue? 23:32:36 I'd expect a permission error in that case.. 23:32:53 jao: Any chance I can have a look? 23:32:54 chandler, i don't think so. actually, my user owns the installation dir 23:33:22 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:33:24 eli, hm. not easily. this is my laptop. 23:34:07 what OS are you building this on? 23:34:17 debian 23:34:20 sid 23:34:27 *eli* immediately imagines implementing some reverse ssh thing... 23:34:39 eli, yeah, i was thinking of that too 23:35:07 jao: Did this stow use case work with previous builds? 23:35:09 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:35:29 chandler, in previous 4.* builds, all the time 23:35:58 chandler, for racket, i've been using the racket executable happily. and it still works. 23:36:17 jao: How about this -- run `strace /path/to/mzscheme' and send me the log? 23:36:27 eli, sure. sec. 23:36:32 Ah, that's a good idea. 23:36:49 jao: BTW, so the problem is only with running mzscheme, not racket? 23:37:19 -!- haole [~ivan@187.23.86.52] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 23:37:40 jao: Hold on a second. 23:38:05 jao: You're using emacs, right? 23:38:43 eli, this error happens when invoking mzscheme in a terminal 23:38:55 eli, and yes, only for mzscheme. racket works. 23:39:09 Did you use --prefix when building? 23:39:29 eli, yes. that's how the files ended there after make install. 23:39:47 eli, i used --prefix when configuring 23:39:57 OK, can you open the mzscheme binary and look for "coLLECTs dIRECTORy:", and see the path that follows that? 23:40:17 Then do the same for the racket binary and see what that says. 23:40:33 eli, ../collects 23:40:39 for mzscheme 23:40:51 And racket? 23:40:57 the full path 23:41:01 OK. 23:41:30 Can you see if using the correct path in mzscheme fixes it? 23:41:54 You'll need to use something like `find-file-literally', and make sure that you're using overwrite mode. 23:42:01 using --collects fixes mzscheme 23:42:08 jao: which mzscheme? is it /usr/local/stow/bin/mzscheme ? 23:42:13 Oh, yeah, that's easier... 23:42:38 chandler, /usr/local/stow/racket/bin/mzscheme 23:42:55 Hm. OK, I thought I was remembering that stow created symlinks to installed binaries. 23:42:58 I guess not. 23:43:03 chandler, it does 23:43:08 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 23:43:11 In any case, that was enough to know where the problem is. 23:43:23 chandler, in /usr/local/bin. but i was invoking it with a full path, just to make sure. 23:43:48 I'll need to talk to Matthew about it, and of course we'll neeed to fix it for the release. 23:44:00 eli, excellent. thanks. 23:44:13 To clarify, this is certainly a bug... 23:44:26 (i guess it's some #define not correctly set, or somesuch) 23:48:23 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-254-201.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:52:09 jao: No -- the binary has the path where it expects to find the collects directory, and when it changes relative to the collects, it needs to be edited. 23:52:49 This is done in the make install step, since the binary moves from "src/racket/racket" to "bin/racket". 23:53:06 eli, aha. 23:53:22 It's done in a different way when it's a unix-style installation, and that code isn't changing the mzscheme binary. 23:53:57 ... You're editing the binary? 23:54:00 eli, by "unix-style" you mean with no --prefix? 23:54:24 "unix-style" as opposed to "in-place", I think. 23:54:43 jao: no -- unix-style is what you get with a --prefix. 23:54:52 chandler: could it *be* any more Unix-like? 23:55:15 (It's one "feature" in unix I dislike.) 23:55:18 rbarraud: ?? 23:55:37 chandler: Yes, it has some space for the path to be rewritten. 23:55:41 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 23:55:46 eli, ok. i misread what you wrote. 23:55:57 There's a few occasions when it's done -- `make install', and the unix sh installer. 23:56:03 Interesting. 23:56:33 Huh. `apt-get build-dep drscheme' apparently didn't install enough -dev packages to allow me to compile GRacket. 23:57:25 ros3 [~roselynro@99.13.242.166] has joined #scheme 23:57:42 There's no other way to do it. The only slightly strange thing that we're doing is that we're building it with a relative path, and then change it to adapt for --prefix -- if we had it always use a --prefix we'd just get many more hard-wired paths. 23:58:06 Re dependencies, I wouldn't rely on the ubuntu/debian package specification. 23:58:12 (But that's not surprising...) 23:58:37 I'm not terribly surprised, just annoyed at the usual fresh VM exercise of chasing down a zillion packages that are needed to actually do development. 23:58:53 It'd be nice if there was a single command for "please allow me to develop against all the libraries that are installed on the system" 23:59:44 I usually add enough packages that by the time my system is setup I rarely get anything that I can't compile...