00:00:15 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:00:57 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 00:01:13 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:01:14 Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 00:01:18 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-233-60.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:01:29 ToxicFrog: what's the option for that? 00:02:57 Hi, arcfide. 00:03:12 I'm procrastinating. (Hence my presence here.) 00:03:34 arcfide: mistie has bugs in the implementation, has broken quoting rules (at least i never figured out how to insert a literal "\"), and if you have a single syntax error in your document all you get is a cryptic error with no line number info, so you have to resort to binary search commenting out to find the error 00:04:01 other than that, it's fine :| 00:04:21 What's Mistie? 00:04:34 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-204-229.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:05:30 an old abandoned attempt by dorai sitaram to create a latex-like documentation system in scheme 00:06:13 foof: I feel your pain. Have you really not been able to find any alternative? 00:06:38 Doesn't PLT have some snazzy system called `Scribble' or something? 00:06:45 nothing i like 00:06:45 Yeah. 00:07:26 i implemented scribble, except the bizarre space deletion rules which i'm not sure i want 00:08:06 If those space deletion rules are the things that let me indent my multi-line strings without having that extra space at the beginning, then that's one of the main things I liked about Scribble. 00:08:53 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:09:13 arcfide: i don't want it for here-docs - in fact i'm not even integrating it with the scheme reader - i just want a documentation system 00:09:25 Ahh. 00:09:41 You didn't like Lout? 00:10:21 Actually, when I'm writing my user level documentation, as opposed to my technical documentation, I have a tendency to use a DTP program like Scribus coupled with a word processor like TextMaker. 00:10:26 and as a latex replacement, automatically removing spaces seems like a bad thing 00:11:05 There's Docbook. 00:11:08 ewww and ewww 00:11:17 and god no (re Docbook) 00:11:30 *arcfide* chuckles. 00:11:58 Well, if you find something suitable, let me know, as I might want to make it possible to target a different documentation language than TeX in ChezWEB. 00:13:02 i just found out that franz inc. is headquartered about three miles away from me 00:13:23 How about targetting plain old Scheme, and not butchering your Scheme programs with backslashes? You can even target Scheme with your keyboard and editor alone -- no need for any fancy software to generate it from what you actually type! 00:14:22 i really just want latex with a simplified syntax, utf8 w/ fonts that actually work, and extensions made easy (_named_ function parameters) 00:14:57 copumpkin [~copumpkin@pat160.dartmouth-secure.border2-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 00:15:05 I thought fonts did work reasonably well these days in LaTeX, as long as you don't want to typeset formulae. 00:15:27 they work very nicely in xetex 00:15:29 Riastradh: no, it's imposssible to get japanese to work most of the time 00:15:36 foof: xetex works fine for japanese :) 00:15:44 the cjk package for regular latex is painful 00:15:48 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-204-229.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:51 Riastradh: I want a typeset document at the end, do yo uhave a typesetting language written in Scheme that is maintained and useful? 00:16:01 and absolute requirement is that I be able to type a "hello world" doc in utf8 in any world script and have it just work 00:16:15 you should try it then 00:16:25 it uses utf8 as default encoding 00:18:40 arcfide, no, I use LaTeX or plain text for all my documents. 00:20:34 -!- mastertogo [~togo@ip70-171-249-111.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:34 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:34 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-72-35.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:34 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@75-119-252-182.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:34 -!- aehrisch [~aehrisch@vhost.knauel.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:39 *copumpkin* sighs 00:20:48 copumpkin, xetex is or includes a LaTeX implementation, or runs the usual one, or something, right? 00:21:02 -!- newbie008 [~8fa6e23a@gateway/web/freenode/x-bfpyfhbqcgvqpavz] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:21:25 It's the same language, but a different renderer (started for Mac OS using Apple's typography stuff, but is now available for linux too). There's also XeLaTeX if you prefer LaTeX 00:21:38 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-254.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:21:59 there's a package called fontspec that allows you to control all the advanced font features (ligatures, etc.) if you want to use them 00:22:00 newbie008 [~8fa6e23a@gateway/web/freenode/x-bfpyfhbqcgvqpavz] has joined #scheme 00:22:21 mastertogo [~togo@ip70-171-249-111.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 00:22:21 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@75-119-252-182.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 00:22:21 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:22:21 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-72-35.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:22:21 aehrisch [~aehrisch@vhost.knauel.org] has joined #scheme 00:22:26 I mostly use it as a drop-in replacement for regular LaTeX in case I decide I want to do something more typographically appealing 00:22:45 it also comes bundled with MacTex if that's what you use to install your TeX distribution 00:23:15 -!- IJP [~Ian@host86-185-165-237.range86-185.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:23:28 IJP [~Ian@host86-185-165-237.range86-185.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 00:23:30 It's also part of TeX-Live, isn't it? 00:23:45 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@75-119-252-182.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:24:26 yeah, I think so. I think MacTeX is just TeX Live with Mac-specific apps like like TeXShop bundled 00:24:30 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@75-119-252-182.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 00:24:37 a double like 00:24:52 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.227] has joined #scheme 00:27:07 foof: anyway, it's worth trying if you want to typeset japanese. I've written a few documents with cjk characters (even non-BMP ones) in XeTeX and it works fine 00:27:29 you can even do vertical typesetting if you prefer that (and you can choose grid or proportional layout) 00:28:28 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 00:29:05 There are plenty of examples in http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/CTAN/macros/xetex/latex/fontspec/fontspec.pdf if you're curious 00:29:06 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2d3p5ae 00:30:42 sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:37:50 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:41:53 ah well 00:47:40 copumpkin: can it do ruby chars? 00:49:54 arcfide: skype is hard on linux because audio is hard on linux 00:50:46 foof: pretty sure it can 00:50:51 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:51:08 foof: let me see 00:51:13 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:51:44 non-BMP is nice, so much software doesn't handle that 00:51:51 *foof* curses utf-16 00:53:01 http://snapplr.com/8pj4 here's an example I found and just compiled 00:53:29 I'm pretty sure it works horizontally too :P 00:54:02 spiffy :) 00:54:04 foof: Sigh. Do you know how long I've been waiting for audio *not* to be hard on Linux? (Stop me if I've ranted about this recently.) 00:54:16 i don't suppose it works with beamer? 00:54:30 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:54:53 chandler: i've been using linux since the 1.x days, and it seems to me it's only gotten worse 00:55:02 foof: I haven't tried that, but I'd expect it to. Most latex packages work out of the box with it unless they make assumptions about postscript output 00:55:22 Well, that's longer than me. :-) 00:55:40 65,500 characters ought to be enough for anybody 00:56:24 foof: skype is also hard linux because it is proprietary, and therefore not supported by distros 00:56:33 s/hard/hard on/ 00:56:38 copumpkin: do you have a URL for that example source? 00:56:48 foof: it was on a mailing list, but I'll upload it somewhere, give me a sec 00:57:32 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/361503/verttest.tex 00:57:55 I just compiled with xelatex but I had to change the font to hiragino mincho pro because I didn't have the one he used 00:58:35 foof: If you want docs = code, you absolutely need to ignore indentation. 00:59:28 eli: i'm used to latex, \code{ 00:59:29 ... 00:59:30 } 01:00:13 everything in the middle is verbatim, and it's up to the individual formatters to optionally munge with space 01:00:37 foof: Especially for code blocks (which I use very frequently), removing indentation -- when done right -- is absolutely essential. 01:01:01 foof: also relevant is http://tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2006-July/004538.html 01:01:16 eli: my point is, i want to remove space at a higher level 01:01:41 i don't want to initial parser to lose any information 01:01:57 More specifically, if you want some verbatim environment to show text, you don't want to specify the indentation by the indentation of the source code, but explicitly -- as in something like \code[indent=2]{...}. 01:03:23 When you view your doc source as programs, then this is not losing real information -- it's losing something that depends on the source, so it's a feature to lose it. 01:03:36 In the same sense that the scheme reader loses comments. 01:04:01 Also, the scribble reader uses syntax properties to include the lost information -- 01:04:05 i don't want my doc source to be a program (most of the time) 01:04:13 I did that in case it will ever be needed. 01:04:20 Nobody has ever used it, still. 01:04:42 (If you don't want your source to be a program, then you should switch to word and such...) 01:05:33 eli: suppose i'm writing a literate program and i have a large procedure with lots of nested defines 01:06:20 i want to write an introduction to the procedure, the head of the procedure, then for each of the internal defines an introduction followed by the define 01:06:52 Yes, so? 01:07:01 in that case, the embedded source code for the internal defines should all retain the exact indentation from the source file 01:07:39 but with scribble they will be indented at the same level as the outer scope by default 01:07:51 Huh?? That sounds like it will result in some *very* ugly rendering if you really want to use LP. 01:08:28 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-222-57.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 01:09:29 if the whole set of procedures and docs fits on one page, i think it would be easier to read preserving the original indentation 01:09:42 but it's just an example 01:10:03 in general, it's easy to post-process to remove space 01:10:44 http://tmp.barzilay.org/x 01:10:47 so i think a latex alternative should preserve by default and then fudge at the processing/rendering layer 01:11:31 oh, i was thinking of preserving the original order 01:13:40 to be clear, most of the time i don't think it matters when you remove space 01:14:37 but i just want a very general purposes converter from doc->sexp and then work with the sexps 01:15:13 and since i don't even know all the use cases yet, it seems better to remove space at a separate layer 01:15:47 even if 99% of the time i end up writing (normalize-indentation (doc->sexp in)) 01:17:59 copumpkin: that example fails horribly 01:18:09 ! LaTeX Error: File `memoir.cls' not found. 01:18:14 foof: hmm, it worked fine for me 01:18:15 ! LaTeX Error: File `xkeyval.sty' not found. 01:18:27 ! Undefined control sequence. 01:18:29 what tex distribution are you on? 01:18:33 ! LaTeX Error: Missing \begin{document}. 01:18:57 ubuntu texlive-xetex 01:19:43 but that's another reason i want to get away from *tex - it's impossible to install and manage extensions 01:19:51 yeah :) 01:19:57 I guess mactex comes with more stuff 01:20:22 I hate tex the language, but I generally enjoy its output 01:20:54 bitweiler [~phax@adsl-69-153-229-179.dsl.pnblar.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:23 eli: and for here docs, if i ever wanted to extend the reader with scribble support i could just use the wrapped version (because that's definitely what you want in that case) 01:23:56 -!- untouchable [~untouchab@pool-141-154-220-3.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 01:24:09 oh... except it wouldn't really work if the opening brace wasn't followed by a newline :/ 01:26:01 eli: Is the scribble stuff useful without the reader extensions? 01:28:01 arcfide: yes, that's what i'm considering using it for 01:28:07 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:28:23 untouchable [~untouchab@pool-141-154-217-190.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:34 foof: Did I answer all of your questions about ChezWEB satisfactorily? 01:31:48 arcfide: i still need to look into it 01:32:33 Alright, no rush. 01:33:39 OK, I can modify my scribble parser to preserve 100% of the doc structure, and annotate each sub-expression with the initial column. 01:34:06 Then a basic filter would remove the annotations, and another filter would perform PLT-style indentation normalization. 01:34:52 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:39:05 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 01:42:49 asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.10] has joined #scheme 01:43:49 I have never seen a Linux distribution that has as many updates as SLED 11. 01:44:02 It's like every other day I have a software update. 01:44:48 so long as it doesn't require reboot, it's fine 01:44:54 *foof* hates mac software updates 01:45:01 foof: In that case (if you want to preserve the code linearly), then you're not talking about literate programming -- but on *semi* literate program, which is much more different than "semi" indicates. 01:45:13 "A new version of iTunes is available! Do you want to restart now?" 01:45:26 IOW, it sounds like you're talking about a *separate* layer that just separates the code from the text. 01:45:54 -!- turbofail [~user@adsl-69-238-246-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:59 eli: i was just throwing out a hypothetical example, that's not really what i want to do 01:45:59 This layer is best separated from the markup itself, since otherwise you end up with bogus things like \code{))} 01:46:38 And this is exactly what the "haskell literate programming" is doing (in two styles -- and neither uses an open/close marker but a per-line annotation). 01:46:59 basically: i have to use latex for everything, and i'm deeply unhappy with it, so i want to gradually start working on a replacement 01:47:25 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:47:30 i want a very, very solid foundation for that replacement 01:47:39 Well, for a replacement (and re arcfide's question too), you need to consider that there's two separate layers that you need. 01:47:51 i'm not talking about lp anymore 01:47:53 One is the concrete syntax and one is the documentation system itself. 01:48:06 (In scribble they're both called "scribble"...) 01:48:08 oh, those two layers, right 01:48:26 tex *does* mix them up in a *very* inconvenient way. 01:48:35 yes 01:48:39 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/preprocessor/mztext.html 01:48:55 That was a more faithful implementation of tex-like capabilities that I did. 01:49:08 It suffered some of the problems that tex does. 01:49:29 Enjoys its power too -- basically each macro can have a completely different *concrete* syntax. 01:49:37 But that's something that is hardly ever used. 01:49:55 Just like in tex -- you end up with gobs of code that deal with extra space here and a comma there. 01:50:25 And using sophisticated macros can break in horrible ways too if there are bugs... 01:50:25 right, which is why i want three layers 01:51:00 doc->sexp (lossless), normalize space (configurable), then render 01:51:08 (I'm amused by knuth's claim for a piece of bug-free software, when that software is so badly designed...) 01:51:17 (actually, i'm picturing many more layers than that) 01:51:58 If you really want to have the second step do the space normalization, then you have a problem there. 01:52:26 You can't do that with just sexprs. 01:52:27 You need to know their locations too. 01:52:27 eli: Knuth's claim? 01:52:27 that's why i said i would annotate the sexps 01:52:45 i.e. by lossless i meant _truly_ lossless 01:52:46 (So you'll invent syntax objects too...) 01:53:06 It's possible to do that in PLT, yet normalizing the spaces at read time is *way* more convenient. 01:53:11 what? no, just \code{foo} => ( foo) 01:53:32 (Yes, a syntax object with location and text.) 01:53:50 The thing is that you want that to be done in a way that is intimately related to the concrete level reader -- so that's the best place to do it. 01:53:52 eli: yes, which is why i said if i were to ever extend the reader with this, the reader result would be normalized 01:54:21 OK, so you're just talking about a different way to implement the same (or equivalent) reader. 01:54:40 i just want to split it into two layers 01:54:43 Obfuscate: Yes. IMO, it's both patronizing and misguided. 01:54:54 because i'm hyper-focusing on long-term architecture here 01:55:40 and am only concerned with latex-like use, not the reader 01:56:07 Why? This is such a waste of a good syntax. 01:56:26 The scribble syntax is very convenient for a ton of stuff. 01:57:01 eli: I'm just not familiar with what his claim is... a google search didn't reveal anything that looked interesting. 01:57:28 so far there's nothing in any chibi modules, including FFI usage, that would benefit from here-docs 01:57:47 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:57:50 It's *much* more than just here-docs. 01:58:15 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/templates.html 01:58:21 i've just never found sexps to be lacking 01:58:21 http://svn.plt-scheme.org/plt/trunk/src/foreign/foreign.ssc 01:58:29 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/scribble/preprocessor.html 01:59:39 Obfuscate: He's claiming that tex has been nearly bug free for many years, with only very few (as in less than 5 or smoething around that) bugs. And he promises a check on an amount that increases each time for bugs that are found. 02:00:04 i'm pretty sure it would be bad for a general-purpose preprocessor to munge space by default 02:00:17 eli: So, speaking of Scribble... 02:00:21 Obfuscate: I find it extremely pretentious -- and very typical of theoreticians (who very often dismiss language issues as "it's just programming"). 02:00:46 foof: I gave you three examples of general preprocessing applications -- and it worked fine in all of them. 02:01:00 I'm trying to munge together something to do some basic HTML template-ish stuff. Nothing fancy - I've just got a bundle of HTML now with common headers and footers, and a few links that need to be adjusted per-page. 02:01:23 Like I said, the "lost" spaces are preserved on the reader result in case it's needed, and it was never really used. 02:01:38 Hm. Let me lisppaste the issue I'm running into. 02:01:44 chandler: Are you trying to just write code that produces web pages? 02:01:58 eli: Ah, okay, that doesn't seem so interesting then. Thanks for clarifying. 02:02:13 eli: If I understand what you mean, yes. 02:02:20 eli: i appreciate your feedback and experience with scribble 02:02:27 I need to preprocess a bundle of input files, and spit out the resulting output. 02:02:35 but i don't understand why you're so opposed to me using a more flexible default 02:02:39 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:02:54 foof: have a look on these things, and see also my scheme workshop thing from last summer. 02:03:07 I'm obviously not opposed for anything that you choose to do... 02:03:16 eli: none of those example are relevant to me 02:03:18 ...especially since it sounds like at a higher level it will look the same. 02:03:33 chandler pasted "test.ss" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100222 02:03:41 chandler annotated #100222 "test.html" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100222#1 02:03:42 You need more use{r,}s, then. 02:03:54 chandler annotated #100222 "template.html" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100222#2 02:04:31 I think I'm misunderstanding something fundamental here. Is `@include' not a syntactic include? 02:05:56 Alternatively, am I going down the wrong path entirely? 02:07:44 i still need to think about general preprocessor usage 02:08:39 cpp is garbage, but is usable for C, and you can concatenate symbols 02:08:52 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 02:08:56 m4 is a more likely target, i have to look at what that does with space 02:09:19 my impression is you might want space munging to behave differently depending on the use case 02:09:39 hello 02:09:59 foof: That foreign.ssc is doing things I wouldn't have dared to imagine with CPP. m4 is a really ugly horrible mess (with preserving spaces being a major contributor to that mess). 02:10:23 chandler: I don't remember the details, but if you just want a file with bindings, you can just require a plain scheme file. 02:11:14 chandler: But in any case in the next very few days I'll have the code that I'm using for the plt web pages (and my own) -- I'm very happpy with it. (And that is after a very long line of attempts.) 02:11:46 Well, I look forward to that, and will just use the at-exp reader in Scheme for my definitions for now. 02:16:12 eli: one thing i was thinking though is it might've been nice if scribble had a purely prefix syntax extension 02:16:50 e.g. something like @!foo[data ...] 02:17:41 where the can be separated by space (e.g. on the next line), and the [data ...] section is of course optional 02:18:03 that gives you the equivalent of pythons @foo modifiers 02:20:13 chandler: The idea is, very roughly, to have bindings for all of the HTML tags, each just creates a struct with its contents, and they're rendered as HTML -- using the scribble syntax makes things very convenient. 02:20:31 Ah. That's interesting, but probably more than what I was looking for here. 02:20:41 Right now, I'm just trying to take a bundle of existing HTML and factor out the common cruft. 02:20:57 foof: That sounds dangerous -- it goes outside of the usual conventions of sexprs... Maybe you want something more like PLT's `#reader'? 02:21:33 eli: it's like ' and ` and , but extensible 02:21:51 so you could have @!quote instead of special case rules for @' 02:22:05 chandler: The preprocessor language should work fine for that -- the only thing to keep in mind is that `include' there is a textual kind of include, for code you'd use the usual stuff. 02:22:28 I wasn't drawing such a hard and fast distinction between code and text :-) 02:22:34 foof: So this does sound like `#reader'; IOW -- a readtable thing. 02:23:14 foof: Kind of like the generic #-something dispatcher in CL as a quick way to add more reader syntaxes. 02:23:58 chandler: It might be worth allowing that, but I'm not sure that it would be useful. 02:24:01 well, it would be regular - @!foo always just wraps the next sexp as (foo sexp) 02:24:02 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:09 so no fiddling with extensions 02:24:12 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:24:47 foof: right -- implementing that with a readtable would be something like two lines... 02:27:35 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:52 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 02:29:00 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has joined #scheme 02:30:07 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:33:50 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 02:35:15 -!- mastertogo [~togo@ip70-171-249-111.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:47 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:45:35 -!- untouchable [~untouchab@pool-141-154-217-190.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 02:48:12 geckosenator [~sean@dsl-63-249-91-224.dhcp.cruzio.com] 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in CL, i know of special variables 10:35:48 fluids 10:35:52 system-dependent 10:37:17 SRFI 39 10:45:45 hmm, but fluids (and indeed the sample implementation of srfi 39) are not thread-safe, are they? or am i missing something? 10:48:46 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:52:16 SRFI 39 does not define the behaviour of parameters with respect to threads, just like ANSI CL doesn't define the behaviour of special variables with respect to threads 10:52:38 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 10:52:45 true 10:53:10 best to consult the documentation of your implementation 10:54:06 my question then is, lexical bindings always shadow dynamic bindings, right? 10:55:25 alvatar [~alvatar@59.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 10:56:05 forget what i said, there's dynamic-lookup 10:56:22 oh, but it's internal implementation 10:57:03 with SRFI 39 you have a lexically scoped object (the "parameter") with a dynamic value that you can get by calling it 10:58:35 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-48-20.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 11:04:43 right, but since scheme is a lisp-1, any lexical binding would shadow the parameter (actually procedure) 11:04:54 (with the same name, of course) 11:05:16 incubot: holy shit: it turns out the kafka was an admirer of dickens, after all; i always thought there was something between das urteil, das schloss and bleak house. 11:05:21 Also, if I did it -- heh, yome beat me to it. 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13:33:20 -!- scottmcl is now known as scottmcl66 13:35:03 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 13:38:21 -!- scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-68-33-81-72.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 13:39:15 scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-68-33-81-72.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:43:49 -!- scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-68-33-81-72.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:44:09 scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-68-33-81-72.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:48:09 -!- scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-68-33-81-72.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:48:36 scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-68-33-81-72.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:52:29 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:59:08 ASau`` [~user@77.246.231.56] has joined #scheme 14:00:06 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:26 Re: PLT typed-scheme and PLT's pattern matching facility - any gotchas to look out for before I dive into a bunch of ML'ish style coding? Thanks. 14:09:39 Almost certainly. 14:11:02 Any particular types of patterns or combinations to explicitly avoid? 14:11:27 -!- pencilk [~jk@222.178.152.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:39 don't try mixing it with any other PLT features 14:12:40 oh, it's not all that bad.... 14:13:09 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:15:42 scottmcl66: What are you trying to do? 14:17:55 I've built IR #1 (close to the syntax) using record and U types in typed-scheme. So no I've got to build a walker (likely many and over successive lower level intermediate representations). Patmatch is clearly the way to go with this kind of code. 14:18:45 Hence my description of the task before me as "ML'ish" :-) 14:18:45 it's true 14:18:54 *elly* has only ever written compilers in ML 14:19:08 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:20:04 Yeah, I'm taking a walk on the wild side. In addition to some (somewhat stale) scheme background, I like the way PLT's lex/yacc works (integrates nicely into the code, etc.) 14:21:12 So far, building the "AST" using records and U types vs. regular old s-exprs has already been a boon and made me think much more clearly about IR #1's design. 14:22:57 So I'm pretty ready to hook up the grammar to record building actions and write the walker - I'm just seeing if I can avoid some obscure debugging hassles with a little advance knowledge of using "match" with type-scheme structures. 14:23:32 Knowledge of any pitfalls, that is. 14:26:49 xwl [~user@125.34.168.40] has joined #scheme 14:28:24 *elly* has no useful advice, sadly 14:29:38 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.6] has joined #scheme 14:30:15 elly: At worst, I can spend half a day with just a few types and scheme/match and see how things go as I try out successively more complex patterns. Really, I'll only need a fraction of match's capabilities. 14:30:52 go for it :) 14:31:37 elly: My real concern is to see if pattern variables come out nice and typed on the right hand side of a matched pattern. 14:40:28 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:46:47 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@c-69-248-213-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:49:07 shofetim [~user@97-121-228-161.blng.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 14:49:10 Any folks using Larceny? Last I looked into it, it seems to be a very nice compiler, with *nix and Windows support, but oddly lacking much of a user community. 14:52:02 I haven't used it, but just found out about it a few days ago... being able to target .net (and mono, the whole idea of run anywhere without changing anything) sounds very cool. 14:52:10 w 14:53:00 shofetim: agreed, although I'm an "old timer" I guess attracted to the native compiler its impressive benchmark results 14:54:16 shofetim: I just noticed that the larceny project web site is no longer hosted by Northeastern. Hmmmm? 14:56:16 When I last looked (a few weeks ago), there hadn't been any development activity on Larceny of note in several months. 14:56:43 That might explain the lack of a user community, or maybe the lack of a user community explains the lack of activity. 14:58:00 If you're looking for a good-performing Scheme with a more active user community, I'd suggest taking a look at Gambit. 14:58:57 -!- scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-68-33-81-72.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has left #scheme 14:59:08 scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-68-33-81-72.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:59:50 chandler: What a shame! Excepting RnRS libs, I don't see any mention of additional supporting libs in the docs. 15:01:09 chandler: Isn't Gambit a compile-to-c based system? For some reason, I've always looked askance at compilation to C - afraid of assemblers? :-) Correct me if I'm mistaken re: Gambit in this respect. 15:01:51 That's correct. Compile-to-C is unlikely to provide the fastest compile times in the world, but it can indeed produce quite competitive results. 15:02:45 chandler: Does one debug under an interpreter and then compile to C, or is there some clever way to provide a source debugging when running the compiled C code? 15:03:43 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:04:01 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:04:32 I haven't debugged Gambit extensively, but I believe the ordinary debugger works with compiled code so long as it's compiled with the appropriate Gambit options. 15:04:45 It stores source location information even in compiled C code (unless some declarations present). 15:05:32 Ah then, cooler than I expected. Does it support both *nix and Windows? 15:07:03 Yes. 15:07:47 Yes, looks very nice. I'll install and give it a whirl. Thanks! 15:09:31 -!- pjb [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:12:43 -!- foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:14 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:15:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:15:47 stis_i8 [~chatzilla@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:17:20 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:17:30 -!- ASau`` [~user@77.246.231.56] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:18:01 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:22:58 it stores source code location if -debug is given 15:23:05 (Gambit-C) 15:23:17 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:23:40 hypothesis: larceny had but a single grad student; he dissertated last summer, disappearing into industry, whereupon larceny stopped larcenizing. 15:24:00 saccade [~saccade@MEDICAL-TWENTY-ONE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 15:24:04 or maybe there was some sort of Thunderdome-style brawl between the two Schemes at NEU. 15:24:05 you can also use declarations to give up some safety if even more speed is needed, but beware of crashes 15:24:16 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@59.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:24:48 even though you can pass -track-scheme to the gambit compiler, and at least GDB will show you the crash site in your scheme code 15:25:09 Daemmerung just used "dissertate" as a verb 15:25:13 *offby1* sharpens an axe 15:25:26 dissertize? 15:25:27 --pyramid-scheme for PROFIT! 15:25:35 "blathered" 15:25:39 *offby1* ain't no acedemic 15:25:49 *Daemmerung* eschews obfuscation 15:26:07 unfortunately I can't think of a shorter way to say what you meant. 15:26:10 ejs [~eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #scheme 15:26:13 But that won't stop me from criticizing! 15:26:31 grew up... 15:26:43 still caffeinating this am; language modules not yet on line 15:27:29 "Fly free, little Ph.D.! Fly free, and" -- -- hack PHP for $$$ 15:27:38 heh 15:27:49 Eeeugh! You had to go there, eh? 15:27:49 guess I shoulda got a Ph.D. 15:27:59 You're a teen-age lobotomy 15:28:19 I just heard that needle-scratching-record effect in an ad recently, and wondered: how long before most people don't recognize that sound? 15:28:30 or are we already there? 15:28:48 what was the ad shilling? Denture creams? 15:28:54 offby1, I think we're already there. It's become more of a sound icon than a recognizable real-world phenomenon at this point. 15:28:57 I think people will recognize it as long as hip hop is alive somewhere. 15:29:07 Phenomenon, doo-doo doo-doo-doo... 15:29:28 Mana mana 15:29:41 doo doo-doo-doo 15:29:59 there are probably other sound effects, that we all recognize, which are similarly outdated. 15:30:03 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-109-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:30:04 Can't think of any offhand though. 15:30:12 (what sound does a seltzer bottle make?) 15:30:17 The classic ringing-steel telephone bell? 15:30:19 Dial tone. 15:30:32 I still hear that on TV shows after someone hangs up. 15:30:33 The clicks of a rotary telephone dial returning to position 15:30:36 chandler: I don't hear dial tones in movies or ads or anything. 15:30:42 Daemmerung: I don't hear that either 15:30:44 A seltzer bottle sounds almost exactly like the sound one hears when opening a shaken 2L bottle of pop, for obvious reasons. 15:30:49 Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:30:49 I heard it just the other week; I'm trying to remember where. 15:30:55 gnomon: the bell, now; that's a possibility. 15:30:55 On Fringe, I think. 15:31:01 A seltzer bottle goes "nyuk nyuk nyuk" 15:31:03 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 15:31:14 boink 15:31:19 *gnomon* perks 15:31:21 up 15:31:26 That's the sound of scientific progress! 15:31:36 ... Scientific progress goes "boink"? 15:31:47 Oh, a woise guy, huh? 15:32:02 *Daemmerung* eyepokes 15:32:10 *gnomon* handblocks 15:32:12 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:32:17 *offby1* wields a hammer 15:32:21 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 15:32:23 *chandler* takes it in the glasses 15:32:51 It's, like, Stooge Fu 15:33:38 fubas 15:34:23 ...beyond all stoogification? Truly that must be foxtrot-uniform. 15:35:10 -!- ejs [~eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:39:38 ejs [~eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #scheme 15:39:42 ...beyond any s-expression, perhaps, who knows, i don't know, who me? nyak, nyak, nyak. 15:48:01 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.229.66.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:48:12 -!- saccade [~saccade@MEDICAL-TWENTY-ONE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:57:55 -!- xwl [~user@125.34.168.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:28 xwl [~user@125.34.168.40] has joined #scheme 15:58:58 -!- stis_i8 [~chatzilla@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:02:18 alvatar [~alvatar@90.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:02:36 -!- xwl [~user@125.34.168.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:54 xwl [~user@125.34.168.40] has joined #scheme 16:04:52 saccade [~saccade@host22.72.248.62.conversent.net] has joined #scheme 16:06:43 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-53-76.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 16:15:18 -!- saccade [~saccade@host22.72.248.62.conversent.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:16:17 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:14 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:18:15 -!- xwl [~user@125.34.168.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:18:20 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:18:23 HG` [~HG@85.8.72.4] has joined #scheme 16:19:55 *jcowan* unvanishes etc. 16:22:04 saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 16:22:16 Oh no, it's a jcowan. 16:22:58 Alas, yes. 16:25:18 *Daemmerung* fears comprehensively 16:29:52 jcowan_ [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:30:31 -!- shofetim [~user@97-121-228-161.blng.qwest.net] has left #scheme 16:30:39 -!- jcowan_ [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30:50 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:18 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:31:34 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:58 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:32:39 asarch [~asarch@187.132.114.4] has joined #scheme 16:33:13 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:32 Can anyone explain to me the virtues of Scheme48 structures? They seem rather rigid, so presumably the intention is to allow some kind of offline processing. 16:34:09 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:35:04 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-252-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:35:53 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 16:37:06 jcowan: structures as in the module system? 16:37:53 Yes. 16:38:39 Actually it's the module system as a whole that I find rather inflexible. 16:42:21 in what way? 16:42:33 i rather like it, but i don't know much to compare it with 16:43:08 You can't nest them, you can't generate them with macros: in short, you define them using a language distinct from Scheme. 16:43:17 And a very dumb language. 16:43:42 -!- scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-68-33-81-72.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 16:43:43 Now the main advantage of dumb languages is that they are easy to statically analyze, but I don't understand the advantage of static analysis here. 16:46:33 jcowan: Tried asking the authors? 16:47:08 the srfi 0 discussion archives might prove enlightening. That's the 0 vs 7 ideological split. Look for messages from Kelsey and Sperber. 16:47:35 jcowan: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-0/mail-archive/msg00020.html 16:48:43 Thanks. 16:51:54 Looks like SRFI 0 mutated quite a lot 17:08:29 -!- ejs [~eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:09:06 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-168-128-117.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:09:44 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:09:54 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:17 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 17:11:27 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 17:11:30 stis_i8 [~chatzilla@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 17:14:22 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-252-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 17:15:13 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@90.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:15:53 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:16:49 alvatar [~alvatar@136.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 17:18:02 bitweiler [~phax@adsl-69-153-229-179.dsl.pnblar.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:18:47 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:48 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has left #scheme 17:19:17 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:20:34 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:03 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:26:11 -!- stis_i8 [~chatzilla@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:11 choas [~lars@p5B0DBE21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:29:36 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:34:15 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@c-98-239-182-129.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:36:52 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:33 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:55 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 17:45:23 -!- Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 17:49:19 -!- bitweiler [~phax@adsl-69-153-229-179.dsl.pnblar.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:29 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:54:09 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 18:17:01 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-109-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:21:06 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 18:25:09 Is there a term that means "function or macro" without specifying either one? 18:28:09 The set of things that can appear in the operator-position of a combination? "Applicand"? Except that you don't apply a macro-- you expand it. 18:32:12 Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has joined #scheme 18:32:15 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-38-34.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:28 -!- Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has left #scheme 18:40:57 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #scheme 18:41:22 Daemmerung: Yeah, basically. I'm thinking there may not be a good term. 18:41:32 Daemmerung: Operator? 18:42:07 Smooth operator. Yeah, I guess. 18:42:42 What meaning does "smooth" carry? 18:42:50 jar286 [~jar@30-16-246.dynamic.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:42:52 I am just being silly. Sorry. 18:42:53 heh 18:43:07 Over my head I'm afraid :D 18:44:13 -!- blake_jo1nson is now known as blake_johnson 18:45:55 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:46:52 parolang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L3T4tFNxOo 18:47:51 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:48:26 incubot: how about poor man's functors? 18:48:29 I have a few questions about your proposed module system. 18:48:44 incubot: shoot! 18:48:47 yes, until he realizes he's dead. It may take some time. When you shoot somebody in action, often he doesn't realize immediately that he's mortally hurt, and goes on fighting... 18:49:20 *sladegen* raises his black and red flag: semper fides! 18:49:41 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@c-98-239-182-129.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:50:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_function 18:50:24 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:50:31 damn, my latin suckorz. 18:50:48 and so does my leet. 19:01:53 ejs [~eugen@94-248-35-23.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 19:02:28 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 19:05:33 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-37-67.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:08:02 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@c-98-239-182-129.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:08:10 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC597E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:11:46 amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust380.brig.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 19:12:03 is there any R6RS scheme for the JVM? 19:17:31 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:17:45 luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 19:24:15 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:24:42 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:28 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.114.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:36:36 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:37:36 -!- ventonegro [~alex@187.51.143.218] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 19:37:46 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 19:38:24 amoe: yeah, it's called clojure.. 19:42:07 -!- futilius [~otheruser@2001:470:d:128:216:3eff:fe86:c70e] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:44:15 sladegen: That was fairly unhelpful. 19:45:36 Does Larceny have a JVM back-end available? I know it has a CLR flavor. 19:47:06 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has joined #scheme 19:47:08 I don't believe that it does. 19:47:46 -!- XTL [t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:49:10 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50:12 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@c-98-239-182-129.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:52:20 Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:53:24 eli: I can't see anything in the PLT git repo regarding the SRFI 45 issue I reported 19:55:21 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-35-23.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:55:48 futilius [~otheruser@cow9.org] has joined #scheme 19:56:36 ejs [~eugen@94-248-35-23.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 19:58:26 XTL [~t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 20:04:48 merimus [~makin@office.vivisimo.com] has joined #scheme 20:05:11 (define func (lambda a a)) 20:05:21 why does (func 2) eval to (2) instead of 2 20:05:46 Now try (func 2 3 4) . 20:05:57 -!- copumpkin is now known as palmer 20:06:01 -!- palmer is now known as palomer 20:06:03 rotty: didn't push the commit out yet. 20:06:09 -!- palomer is now known as copumpkin 20:12:59 -!- XTL [~t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:13:26 XTL [t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 20:14:24 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-37-67.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:18:47 why what causes it to return it as a list? 20:19:19 ie: what is the diff between (lambda a a) and (lambda (a) a) 20:19:39 *that* is the diff 20:19:55 the argument in (lambda a a) is the list a 20:20:06 whereas the argument in (lambda (a) a) means it wants a list with one element, and a is that element 20:20:24 99% of the time you want to use the (lambda (a) a) form 20:20:35 (lambda (a b) ...) accepts exactly two arguments, no more, no less. (lambda (a) ...) accepts exactly one. (lambda a ...) accepts any number of arguments. The list of arguments are bound to a when you call it 20:24:57 -!- merimus [~makin@office.vivisimo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:30:03 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-37-67.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:33:23 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:34:59 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:37:33 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@136.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:43:16 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:43:48 -!- melba is now known as Titan5 20:49:37 eli: i see, thanks 20:49:54 eli: did you adapt the export list as well? 20:50:03 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:21 schmir [~schmir@p54A904EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:54:36 rotty: yes. 20:54:37 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:54:42 :-) 20:55:17 chandler: so sorry... /me goes and stands in the corner. 20:59:31 sladegen: I am slightly interested in clojure 20:59:52 sladegen: but whenever I look at the 'differences from lisp/scheme' page on the site I puke a little bit 21:00:37 maybe i'm just too conservative... lol 21:00:41 i puke when i hear java... but don't treat me seriously. i only abuse bots here. 21:00:47 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:01:26 amoe: No, you're not; Clojure repeats a lot of the design mistakes of the past and adds its own. 21:01:33 Why do you need R6RS, out of curiosity? 21:02:14 chandler: I don't particularly. just looking for a new implementation and never tried R6RS before. I used to use SISC, but it seems a bit inactive 21:02:38 Ah. 21:03:16 amoe: If it doesn't need to be on the JVM, you could try one of the other R6RS implementations 21:03:31 there is a list http://gist.github.com/341044 21:04:33 thanks IJP, will look into it 21:04:38 -!- amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust380.brig.cable.ntl.com] has left #scheme 21:06:22 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-35-23.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:09:28 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:09:52 wingo [~wingo@90.Red-79-156-65.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:10:21 good evening 21:10:39 hi wingo 21:12:07 neilv [~user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 21:13:29 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:57 looks like the plt email lists have been down since around 8am eastern 21:16:52 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:34 ah no wonder my email box has seemed idle today 21:19:47 -!- Titan5 [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Quit: i want to be formal but i'm here to party] 21:22:21 those are quite active lists 21:26:00 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-190.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:28:39 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:45 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:31:25 -!- Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:37:30 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 21:40:02 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:31 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.72.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:43 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has joined #scheme 21:48:51 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.Red-79-156-65.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:49:31 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:49:31 -!- hadronzoo_ is now known as hadronzoo 21:54:49 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 21:58:08 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:29 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:37 sjamaan: i was just about to write an sxml -> latex transformation, when i noticed you already wrote one for multidoc 21:59:05 it looks pretty complete, too; and i also noticed that you have to use string-substitution to make characters latex-friendly 21:59:23 Correction: ivan wrote that 21:59:34 oh, ok 21:59:43 Glad to hear it's useful 22:00:34 we'll see; i'm also considering writing a trivial slatex -> latex translator without going over shtml; e.g. (\documentclass (report)) -> \documentclass{report} 22:00:55 would be much simpler; wouldn't have to deal with any semantic transformation 22:01:10 but can still manipulate the doc programmatically 22:01:59 (i spent a year or so writing a proprietary shtml -> latex translator in chicken: it was big and a big pain in the ass to boot) 22:02:18 sorry, sdocbook -> latex 22:05:12 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:05:12 -!- Poeir_ is now known as Poeir 22:06:23 stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 22:07:06 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 22:08:12 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:08:12 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:08:12 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176192250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:08:12 -!- Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:08:12 -!- ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:08:36 timj_ [~timj@e176192250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:08:47 Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 22:09:00 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Quit: Goin' away] 22:10:28 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #scheme 22:10:49 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:18:21 whee, moving to boston soon 22:20:08 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:49 going to northeastern? 22:25:46 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:26:24 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 22:31:00 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has joined #scheme 22:32:04 -!- neilv [~user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:34:36 elly: already? i thought you didn't start until fall, or something. 22:37:46 I start on July 5 22:37:51 I have training until July 12 22:37:54 and then I am in town :) 22:40:18 -!- stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:04 oh, fantastic! 22:41:42 indeed! 22:41:55 I will be up sporadically for apartment-hunting before that 22:42:41 any idea where you want to live? 22:42:50 somewhere on the red line 22:42:52 near somerville, probably 22:43:24 *elly* has two places to visit on saturday with her parents 22:43:42 TR2N [email@89.180.154.108] has joined #scheme 22:44:48 yeah, somerville is a local optimum of accessibility and affordability, imo 22:47:47 i spent a lot on expensive addresses in cambridge over the years without much to show for it, except for some humiliating defeats at the hands of blitz-chess barons at au bon pain. 22:48:26 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 22:50:39 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC597E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:30 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:02:28 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:09 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 23:04:04 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:13:24 *foof* would take cambridge rent over tokyo rent any day 23:16:16 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:36 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:54 -!- choas [~lars@p5B0DBE21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:22:57 untouchable [~untouchab@pool-141-154-242-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:22:58 -!- Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:18 Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 23:24:53 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:25:17 Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 23:37:50 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 23:44:14 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-37-67.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:44:35 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-38-34.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 23:47:28 foof: good call, actually 23:54:52 -!- untouchable [~untouchab@pool-141-154-242-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:13 untouchable [~untouchab@pool-141-154-242-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:55:17 -!- untouchable [~untouchab@pool-141-154-242-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:58 -!- luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]