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But #emacs is already incredibly lax with enforcement of rules, and I'm not letting it deteriorate into anything goes 02:26:50 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:34:05 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-204.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:34:13 fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has joined #scheme 02:37:24 cableray: in some implementations (scheme9) they are just lists 02:37:41 usually they have a more compact representation 02:38:10 either arrays of characters, or byte-vectors of some more compact encoding such as utf8 02:38:21 i'm not sure if any implementations use trees 02:41:02 foof`, doesn't either picobit or picbit implement them as trees? I know that one or both of those uses trees to represent vectors, and my impression was that strings were built atop the vector facility, but I could easily be mistaken about that. 02:42:11 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:43:29 gnomon: don't know anything about picobit or picbit, that's certainly possible 02:43:55 small implementations often build strings atop lists or vectors 02:44:19 it makes the implementation itself smaller, but kills runtime heap usage 02:45:13 I think that was the idea, since those two systems target microcontrollers with very little ROM space but comparatively ample quantities of RAM. 02:48:21 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 02:49:15 -!- russkey [~russkey@ool-18bb0ebd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:47 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@58.171.34.168] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 02:54:59 flaggy 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currently I'm using mozilla firebird 04:26:37 (per Zawinski's Law) 04:27:00 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 04:27:56 ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 04:27:56 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #scheme 04:27:56 roderic [~roderic@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 04:27:56 Armageddon00 [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 04:27:56 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #scheme 04:28:49 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:49 -!- Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:38:15 Adamant_: ooh ooh ooh ooh 04:39:06 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-38-232.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:39:14 offby1: I thought it was ' hee eeee eee eee ', although translating backing tracks into words is pretty hard 04:42:54 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:44:36 russkey [~russkey@ool-18bb0ebd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 04:45:18 Hard to tell through the BOC quasi Ozzy accent 04:45:40 Also, damn you both for feeding the earworm 04:47:11 fabe [~fabe@p54A7C8F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 04:48:21 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 04:50:11 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:51:14 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-35-82-250-207-193.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 04:54:40 *offby1* still hums and is happy 04:54:48 zilla ... zilla ... zilla ... 05:05:25 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:29 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7C8F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:10:29 -!- FareWell [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:10:29 -!- _danb_ 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has joined #scheme 10:08:22 Obfuscate: I didn't expect to find you here. 10:09:05 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:11:11 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:14:13 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-204-229.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:14:15 -!- nanobanshee [~paco@adsl-144-39-229.mia.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 10:14:25 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-204-229.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:06 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 10:41:28 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 10:58:04 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ac735ac.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:03 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has joined #scheme 11:02:16 Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 11:04:51 alvatar [~alvatar@33.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 11:13:33 phao [~phao@189.107.163.14] has joined #scheme 11:41:31 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@2002:6fbc:43e3:9:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:52 hohoho [~hohoho@2002:6fbc:6696:9:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has joined #scheme 11:41:55 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:28 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 11:45:21 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 11:45:34 the other day here, I was talking about nested defines.. 11:45:43 why would I want to use them? 11:46:02 (I don't quite get it) 11:46:42 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-182.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:46:50 You mean internal definitions? 11:46:58 yes 11:47:26 morphir, 11:47:37 have you ever programmed in C, C++, Java, or any language with similar syntax? 11:47:49 phao: yes, c 11:47:50 Organizing code, for one thing. Another is to create closures. But internal define is glorified set!. 11:47:52 and java 11:48:02 The same reason why you define variables inside functions in C 11:48:11 I define 'definitions' inside functions in scheme 11:48:39 (define (proc arg-list) (define count 0) (....) count) 11:48:42 ah.. right. 11:48:49 I c 11:49:26 but. I would think (let ((count 0)) ) 11:49:40 for a local block structure 11:49:47 let and define 11:49:53 are just 'good things to have' 11:50:01 you could use lambda all the time for example 11:50:05 they're convenient to have. 11:50:20 Jafet talked about organization of code. 11:50:29 -!- haiworld [~ravi@isp.becroft.co.nz] has left #scheme 11:50:37 having a bunch of defines, for me, makes the code more readable. 11:51:03 so this is interessting, because I think define makes a closure... 11:51:16 so that we have the name of the spirit...so of speak 11:51:24 (ref sicp) 11:52:07 and you can also define a local closure with define..right? 11:52:21 yeah... 11:52:53 (define (proc arg-list) (define (gen-counter) (...)) (define counter (gen-counter)) ... counter) 11:54:40 but you can not call (gen-counter) 11:54:46 You can... 11:54:50 unless you are inside of it 11:54:53 ;) 11:54:58 yes. 11:55:04 that's the point here 11:55:23 in that situation, it's implicit that gen-counter isn't needed outside proc 11:55:31 so this is called lexically scoped? 11:55:43 No clue what 'lexically scoped' means. 11:56:32 because I thought that everything defined ended up in the global namespace 11:57:00 *morphir* has a ephapiany 11:57:26 There are two types of definitions -- top-level and internal. They have different semantics. 11:57:46 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.163.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:57:59 *morphir* runs for his r5rs document 11:58:08 Atta boy 11:58:34 npe [~npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 11:59:47 phao [~phao@189.107.200.42] has joined #scheme 12:05:33 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-21-82-64-92-155.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:05:43 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-116-197.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 12:08:27 flaggy [~r333t@189.107.203.193] has joined #scheme 12:19:33 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:20:37 -!- Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant_] 12:22:03 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 12:33:46 -!- npe [~npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Quit: npe] 12:35:36 luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 12:38:41 -!- russkey [~russkey@ool-18bb0ebd.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 12:40:12 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:47:17 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:53:06 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:22 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:54:27 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@2002:6fbc:6696:9:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:35 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-80.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:04:34 asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.161] has joined #scheme 13:17:28 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ac735ac.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 13:22:11 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has joined #scheme 13:24:23 each time I learn something new in sicp using scheme... I feel ripped off from my old school 13:24:36 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-159.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:25:19 there is one thing to learn something new, which in self alone are a satifisfying feeling. 13:26:40 however, when you sense the complete and utter lack of compentence in the industry as they are ignoring lisp and sicp 13:27:08 I get a bit depressed thinking about it 13:29:06 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.200.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:32:39 *sladegen* puts morphir to sleep. 13:36:40 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ac735ac.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 13:55:28 Yes 13:55:30 I get that too 13:55:58 Not just Lisp, the operating system world is like it as well 13:56:07 Everything's a POSIX clone! With processes and a filesystem! 13:56:11 -!- _danb_ [~user@destco.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:24 And all the annoying consequences of that are just How Computers Are, right? ...right? 13:58:19 incubot: computers are hard, let's microsoft! 13:58:23 Moore's law doesn't state be lazy because computers will work harder. 13:59:15 incubot: you feel like getting uppity, slave!?! 13:59:17 How would you stop the slave from going out on his own to become a high-paid command typer? 14:00:25 incubot: "high-paid command typer"? i wish... 14:00:28 The benefits of it are at least the benefits of writing an OS in high level language, and more. 14:04:45 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 14:06:43 -!- haptlK [~alsodongs@157.140.112.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:09:23 slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has joined #scheme 14:10:02 haptlK [~alsodongs@157.140.112.178] has joined #scheme 14:10:40 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 14:18:56 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:24 tell me, why does sicp not use the term macro.. ? 14:26:35 was it too early in the days? 14:27:03 I guess it was before the buzzword days... :D 14:28:00 macro is a buzzword, now, too? 14:28:01 morphir: does it even talk about them at all? 14:29:15 in the video-lecture he talks about the pattern matching Pattern Matching and Rule-based Substitution 14:29:19 err.. 14:29:21 Pattern Matching and Rule-based Substitution 14:30:03 sladegen: it will become one in 2016, I predict. 14:30:36 actually, it might be hard for those other languages to implement a decent macro system. 14:30:37 there is no macro coverage in SICP. 14:30:46 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 14:30:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amf5lTZ0UTc&feature=player_embedded 14:31:20 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:31:27 I am not watching an hour of youtube over a slow link. Sorry. 14:31:54 Also, please note the date of that lecture vs Kohlbecker et al. 14:32:30 Daemmerung: I can understand that. But I think its covered in the videos, though not in the book 14:33:10 rudybot: There is no crying in baseball. 14:33:10 *offby1: t8 en ru like the sages of Driving and Crying once opined, "I'm going straight to hell, just like my mamma said" 14:33:42 Actually, Kohlbecker's thesis was in 1986. Still, highly unlikely. 14:34:11 m4 should be enough for everyone. 14:35:19 BCPL was a macro system already... and what of it? na da, i doubt macros ever becoming buzzwordly. 14:35:39 Daemmerung: yes, but arent pattern matching and rule based subsitution really just a long description of macros? 14:35:54 morphir: No. 14:36:06 you tell 'em, Bix 14:36:17 that's why the shortened it to XSLT ;P 14:36:23 s/the/they/ 14:36:27 hah... 14:37:10 "macro" generically are any form-text substitution that takes place between `read' and `eval'. Not necessarily rule-based. 14:37:18 and judging by recent r7rs/wg* spiky talks even scheme people don't like first class macros. 14:39:28 incubot: But there is no joy in Mudville - mighty Casey has struck out. 14:39:31 It isn't irrelevant. If there is only one instance, you can't run through two strings in parrallel. 14:42:30 -!- slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6.2] 14:42:37 rudybot: I'm way behind on my mailing-list reading. Can you suggest a technique for catching up? 14:42:37 *offby1: then your best bet is the wl mailing-list, it is pretty active and its archives are dense. 14:42:47 hmm, I'll take that under advisement 14:44:52 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:50:37 I recently finished reading sicp and am looking for something more advanced as a followup (perhaps detailing more of scheme's features). 14:51:41 Have any good recommendations? 14:52:13 slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has joined #scheme 14:52:14 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-204-229.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:52:22 EOPL 14:53:55 metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:53:58 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:54:08 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:55:00 Thanks, that looks like it could be useful. 14:57:35 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:52 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 14:59:06 Obfuscate: I'd also suggest TSPL. 14:59:39 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:59:50 Obfuscate: Since Google doesn't naturally send you to the latest edition, see http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ 15:00:21 How about LMPL? 15:00:23 *offby1* whistles innocently 15:01:20 alaricsp: go RT... hrm... L4! 15:01:29 alaricsp: I mean CodeZero of course. :) 15:01:39 Eh? What? :-) 15:01:55 http://l4ka.org/ ? 15:02:18 *alaricsp* hopes and prays this URL is something about the fourth Lagrange point 15:02:35 Awww, a microkernel. Still fun, but not quite AS fun ;-) 15:02:50 No, it is LLLLKA. 15:03:01 No idea what it can stand for. 15:03:02 chandler: Thanks, that looks quite good as well, and is probably a bit closer to what I'm looking for. I'm already seasoned in a few different programming languages (and paradigms), but scheme is a bit of a change of thinking for me. 15:03:53 ladies love lazy larry's kernel approach 15:04:24 alaricsp: after we get exec subsystem rumped, you'll know what it is. 15:06:42 :-D 15:07:01 That sounds fun 15:07:21 That will be more fun than in-kernel lua. 15:07:39 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 15:08:31 Tell me it's been done. I want to see that in action. 15:09:30 Obfuscate: If you're willing and able to learn by diving in head first, TSPL is your resource for sure. 15:12:55 -!- xwl [~user@125.34.171.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:13:05 chandler: I jumped right into chapter 3. It looks great. :) 15:15:43 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:19:27 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:20:00 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 15:21:53 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.209] has quit [Quit: off] 15:23:25 -!- slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:27:25 hm, I was close. It was "ladies love Liedtke's layered kernel architecture." 15:27:46 *Daemmerung* really has no idea, other than L3 -> L4 15:30:41 slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has joined #scheme 15:32:07 Ladies Love Cool J 15:36:15 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:36:36 LL LL KA? 15:36:44 -!- slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:44 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176193069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:42:00 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:43:04 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:53 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 15:44:39 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:27 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:52:22 timj_ [~timj@e176204137.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 15:56:42 fabe [~fabe@p54A7C8F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:57:19 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:48 zeroish [~zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:59:50 slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has joined #scheme 15:59:53 -!- slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:07 -!- Bonjour [~4e29e354@gateway/web/freenode/x-opqdzhglmhouufbv] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:01:07 crazycaw [~mmmm@bl10-193-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 16:01:09 hey 16:01:31 scheme is a good language to start programming, or you recommend something else? 16:03:15 A lot of people in this channel would probably think so 16:03:44 If you want to learn scheme, read HtDP or SICP in the topic. 16:03:49 Yeah, there's going to be a little bit of selection bias in your sample population, here. 16:04:27 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 16:05:52 a lot of university choose scheme, so i supose that is a good way to learn 16:06:08 I recommend you learn with old IBM computer assembly, like the Great Ones did 16:06:09 More universities choose Java 16:06:36 unfortunatly 16:07:07 I personally feel that the world does need Java. Like it needs cubicle workers and burger flippers. 16:07:22 loool 16:07:54 -!- crazycaw [~mmmm@bl10-193-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 16:08:19 Jafet, honestly, you're likely not wrong. That market keeps heaping success on languages which good programmers dislike for being overly verbose or insufficiently expressive; there's a lesson, there. 16:08:24 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:08:25 -1s/That/The/ 16:09:15 Each Java programmer is not very effective, but an army of them can produce software. 16:09:35 Like a single fly on a dungheap, versus a swarm. 16:10:02 Or a lonely maggot, toiling away at a dead cow. 16:11:34 jlongster [~user@adsl-074-237-021-118.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 16:13:19 slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has joined #scheme 16:21:44 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:41:32 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176204137.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:43:02 -!- slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:44:31 slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has joined #scheme 16:47:38 srbloom [~sean@c-24-1-31-229.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:51:21 -!- slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6.2] 16:54:43 timj_ [~timj@e176217054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 16:58:21 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 16:58:40 metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:01:21 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:03:38 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:17:14 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-204-229.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:23:19 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:24:51 ajmrch [~asarch@189.188.139.47] has joined #scheme 17:25:56 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:26:47 -!- Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:27:14 Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 17:37:42 saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:39:32 -!- peddie_ [~peddie@adsl-99-191-73-141.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:59 peddie [~peddie@adsl-99-56-136-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:46:50 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-129.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:51:27 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-182.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:55:14 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@70.90.236.161] has joined #scheme 17:59:05 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:53 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:54 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@70.90.236.161] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:10:39 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 18:10:49 -!- jlongster [~user@adsl-074-237-021-118.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:24:04 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:25:48 -!- ajmrch is now known as asarch 18:26:55 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@70.90.236.161] has joined #scheme 18:34:38 *mhoye* thinks that a lot of people who think they're in the top 10% of their profession are due for a bit of a shock. 18:35:03 mhoye: Coz it's more like 1%? ;) 18:35:19 ... and some of them are in for a lot of a shock! 18:35:23 haha 18:36:05 I might be in the minority here, but there's a lot of things I loved about Java. 18:36:38 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:15 Object serialization, reflection, pretty good libraries... 18:37:32 _fantastic_ network libraries. 18:37:41 Verbose, sure. 18:38:08 But I've seen what's at the other end of that road, and it's called Perl. 18:38:45 Tell that to all the perlmongers 18:38:59 It's a write-only language. 18:39:03 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: copumpkin] 18:39:29 Both are newer than scheme, supposedly "worse" than scheme and, funnily enough, have much more real apps written in them. 18:39:40 Yup. 18:39:50 mario-goulart: Schemers are paralyzed by perfectionism 18:39:59 sjamaan: exactly. 18:39:59 (and somehow manage to produce pretty crappy libs anyway!) 18:40:08 Very #t 18:40:09 (case in point: SSAX) 18:40:31 indeed! 18:40:31 Well, you should think of the triumph of quote-bad-unquote languages in terms of abstraction. 18:40:50 They have less of it, so they have less to think about 18:41:11 Most "great" Perl or Java libs are very straightforward but decent 18:41:12 Not from that perspective, though. 18:41:49 You build an app, you want the app abstracted away from the hardware, right? 18:41:52 For the most part. 18:42:13 You build system, you want the interfaces abstracted away from the implementation. 18:42:34 But if you're running a business, you _definitely_ want your processes to be abstracted away from your staff. 18:43:21 Because if you bet your business on those two guys who are irreplaceable, and one guy retires and the other guy gets hit by a bus, you're doomed. 18:44:36 Ah, the "cogs in a machine" argument 18:44:46 If you're in management, it's a pretty compelling argument. 18:45:23 Not necessarily cogs, but certainly making sure no small number of people are irreplaceable. 18:47:19 (That's one of the reasons Windows NT won out over the various unixes, back in the old days, too; not because NT was better, but because there was only one Windows NT and a growing field of incompatible unixes.) 18:48:38 I'd rather quit IT than work with Windows though 18:48:48 *mhoye* shrugs. 18:48:49 mhoye: That's the case for scheme too. 18:49:19 mario-goulart: I see the case for the platform, but not the language? 18:49:23 Like sjamaan said, that's one of the consequences of perfectionism. 18:49:35 I see for the language too. 18:49:48 I mean, for implementations. 19:05:50 schmir [~schmir@p54A908CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:06:30 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@70.90.236.161] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:10:11 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:11:31 mhoye, that's actually a very valid point, and a strong argument; and if your primary use case for computational power is driving business, your case becomes even more compelling. My strong belief is that there are many more machines driven directly by users than by businesses, though, and that the kind of abstraction-from-programmers that is valuable in a business context is counter-productive to my desire for gadge 19:12:48 Cut off at "desire for gadge" 19:15:59 "[...] to my desire for gadget arrays to be moulded to the users to which they are metaphorically and literally strapped." 19:17:19 Basically, I think that there is a significant difference between optimizing a language design for personal expressiveness vs. business efficiency. 19:18:23 Basically. 19:18:24 And in response to the earlier bit about people who think they're in the top 10% of their profession (not that I think that was aimed at me): I decidedly do not feel that I fall into that category. 19:30:17 copumpkin [~copumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 19:30:34 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:37 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:34:44 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 19:35:55 Don't get me wrong. 19:35:59 I wish things were different. 19:36:33 and if I could magically conjure up a machine for my daughter to grow up using, it would be running SugarOS overtop of a lisp machine. 19:36:40 Heh. 19:38:22 How about Squeak/Smalltalk? 19:40:09 chittoor [~rajesh@115.117.253.183] has joined #scheme 19:42:32 If we're wishing for things, it'd be a lisp machine. 19:42:41 Mmmmm 19:43:04 Well, why not? If you know where to look, you can find the Open Genera emulator for x86-64. 19:43:38 An emulator? 19:43:41 Ick. 19:44:10 We're talking about wishes, here. 19:44:18 mhoye, a hardware emulator, which runs the ground-up software machine, which... 19:44:20 I want a pony! 19:44:21 *gnomon* coughs delicately 19:44:31 ...may be procured without too much difficulty by interested parties. 19:44:45 gnomon: keep me informed. 19:44:48 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:45:01 I'm looking for discoverability like elephants all the way down, here. 19:45:31 SqueakNOS (concept, demoable, not fully actualized) 19:46:09 mhoye, Squeak is pretty close to that. It's objects all the way down, and the bytecode and machine code layers are visible from the object browser. 19:46:37 sort of, you have to install VMMaker to actually have the Slang (subset of Smalltalk) source for the VM 19:47:07 and even then, to modify it and see the result you run it in simulation (not practical except for testing and toys) or do the conversion to C and compile it 19:47:19 gnomon: gotta run, keep me informed! 19:47:29 Indeed! Bon voyage! 19:47:50 kencausey, really? I was under the impression that top-to-bottom Smalltalk systems still existed. If not, I am disappointed! 19:48:02 gnomon: What do you mean by 'bottom'? 19:48:16 there is always some level of runtime involved 19:48:37 There are JITing smalltalks, but even then parts are either written in C or converted to it 19:48:51 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A908CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:03 There are projects to do what you say, but none to my knowledge have actually been completed or are beyond toy level 19:49:03 "Spits out machine code for the hosting hardware" is what I mean by "bottom". I don't really want to split semantic hairs about the precise epistemology of runtime libraries or about instruction set architectures as virtual machine layers. 19:49:41 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:50:14 That's easy enough, you can of course generate machine code and most smalltalks provide some mechanism to actually use the result. In Squeak this is somewhat young and in development, see Exupery, Cog, NativeBoost for some recent explorations. 19:50:17 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 19:51:31 I don't think gnomon is looking for machine code for the host hardware so much as visibility to the level of whatever abstract machine is executing the code. *Not* using a JIT would probably be an advantage for that. 19:52:27 Indeed. As per mhoye, it's about discoverability all the way down, not about writing yet another operating system kernel. 19:52:30 If you mean visibility to the extent you can to the levels above that (above the primitives) then I'm not aware of any complete system providing that. 19:53:25 Smalltalk people have a tendency to prefer to abstract away that level of things 19:53:36 work with an 'ideal' machine rather than the real thing 19:53:56 You are more likely to find something like that in the Forth world (Factor perhaps) 19:54:04 kencausey, almost every serious Forth system provides disassembly and assembler primitives, often for architectures including and beyond the host hardware; almost every serious Common Lisp implementation allows disassembly to source and to generated machine code; and, historically, Smalltalk has offered the same, which is why your assertion that it doesn't these days has caused me some disappointment. 19:54:10 That's fine; the question is whether you can see the parts all the way to the ideal machine. 19:54:25 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:54:43 You can certainly find methods which are implemented by reference to a named or numbered primitive 19:54:55 You can look at and modify the methods by bytecode if you wish 19:55:09 but it gets more difficult below that level 19:58:09 Not to stuff any more words in gnomon's mouth, but I think that's precisely what he's looking for. 19:58:42 Er, that you can inspect down to the bytecode level; the implementation of the abstract virtual machine in terms of real machine code is less of a concern. 19:58:54 slymac [~slyphon@63.251.25.202] has joined #scheme 19:58:56 -!- slymac [~slyphon@63.251.25.202] has quit [Changing host] 19:58:56 slymac [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has joined #scheme 20:10:18 chandler, verily hast thou divined my meaning. 20:10:21 Also: get out of my head. 20:12:22 Wow, there's a lot of clutter in here. Do you ever clean this thing out? 20:12:45 Stop fiddling with that! It's all very carefully arranged! 20:15:59 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:27:22 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:29:56 teurastaja [~teurastaj@modemcable224.15-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:30:47 i dont understand the dot notation that cons returns. can i use it myself and if yes what will result? 20:31:54 teurastaja, do you understand what pairs are? 20:31:57 yes 20:32:28 teurastaja, do you understand what makes a pair a proper list? 20:32:31 i know what a list is made of but what happens if i use the dot notation? 20:33:25 why doesnt it return a pair without the dot notation? 20:33:37 teurastaja, the dot notation lets you literally specify the car and the cdr of a pair; the typical use case is to construct literal pairs, or improper lists. 20:33:52 teurastaja, let's back up a bit. 20:33:56 improper lists? 20:34:14 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 20:34:20 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Client Quit] 20:34:24 lists that are not evaluated yet? 20:34:26 teurastaja, please tell me the difference between a proper and an improper list. I'll tailor my explanation to your understanding. 20:35:27 i dont know the difference 20:35:30 Ok. 20:35:57 So, you know how a pair is a datum with two fields, a CAR and a CDR? 20:36:47 schmir [~schmir@p54A903FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:37:07 yes 20:37:40 A proper list is one where the CDR of the last pair in the sequence is null, as per the NULL? predicate. 20:38:04 and an improper list isnt null terminated? 20:38:28 An improper list is one where the CDR of the last pair in the sequence points to something other than nil or to another pair. 20:39:48 is there such a thing as a list with no empty list at the end? 20:40:05 i mean its the last cdr 20:40:17 *the last 20:42:02 teurastaja, sure; that's just a pair. (1 . 2), for example, has 1 in the CAR and 2 in the CDR; it's a perfectly valid pair, but it's an improper list. 20:42:09 rudybot: eval (cons 1 (cons 2 'end-of-list)) 20:42:12 rotty: your sandbox is ready 20:42:12 rotty: ; Value: (1 2 . end-of-list) 20:43:01 is the rudybot a sort of interpreter? 20:43:15 rudybot, what are you? 20:43:16 gnomon: anyway, if you actually would be a threat, I am sure you are not a match for security agencies. 20:43:37 uh... 20:43:40 Answer: a vaguely threating very speedy typist. 20:43:45 teurastaja: it's a bot that features a scheme repl 20:43:55 cool 20:44:13 turbofail [~user@adsl-69-238-246-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:26 (1 2 . end-of-list) is short for: (1 . (2 . end-of-list)) 20:44:49 just as (1 2) is short for (1 . (2 . ())) 20:45:12 so if i do something like: (define something (lambda (x . y) ...)) what is that going to do? 20:45:24 That... is going to fail out. 20:45:58 rudybot: eval (define foo (lambda (x . y) (list x y))) 20:46:17 rudybot: eval (foo 1 2 3 4) 20:46:17 rotty: ; Value: (1 (2 3 4)) 20:46:31 rudybots taking a few seconds lol 20:46:55 teurastaja: the first argument passed to `foo' will end up in `x' 20:47:04 ... and the rest in `y' 20:47:35 so its probably mostly used as a procedure definition? 20:48:08 teurastaja: dot notation? 20:48:15 yes 20:48:38 phao [~phao@189.107.136.105] has joined #scheme 20:49:10 teurastaja: it's common to use it for association (i.e. lookup) lists, for example 20:49:28 could i have an example? 20:49:56 rudybot: eval (define a-list '((x . 42) (y . "foo") (z . hello))) 20:50:13 rudybot: eval (assq 'y a-list) 20:50:13 rotty: ; Value: (y . "foo") 20:50:27 rudybot: eval (cdr (assq 'y a-list)) 20:50:27 rotty: ; Value: "foo" 20:50:59 i know know about assq but ive seen it 20:51:42 in `a-list', the `car' field of each element stores the key, the cdr field stores the value 20:52:32 nice! 20:52:52 just like hashes 20:53:24 but with different performance 20:53:51 wingo [~wingo@81.38.181.155] has joined #scheme 20:53:54 how would the same performance be achieved in scheme? 20:54:13 i bet theres a way to define a hash table in scheme 20:54:29 i just dont know how theyre implemented 20:54:41 yes, there is. 20:55:03 teurastaja: what Scheme implementation are you using? 20:55:13 whither lisppaste 20:55:50 plt-scheme 20:55:57 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:56:04 lisppaste: hi :) 20:56:11 lisppaste is on intermittent strike until either I found a round tuit to add auto-reconnection or until someone else volunteers to help out 20:56:29 it's may, it's strike month 20:56:40 I don't expect this to end next month. 20:57:15 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/hash-tables.html 20:57:16 hasta la victoria, siempre! 20:57:38 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:03 thats good but id like to know how its made. is it made in scheme? 20:58:11 (Anyone who can hack Common Lisp - or who wants to rewrite the whole kit and kaboodle in something else - is welcome to volunteer. The application process isn't that tough!) 20:58:21 teurastaja: It's not, typically. 20:58:39 thats c business? 20:58:48 Or if it is, it's implemented using internals that aren't exposed in any uniform way. 20:59:23 but you /could/ implement hash tables in Scheme 20:59:24 You could easily implement a hash table for specific, known-in-advance types, but implementing hashing for any general type is a problem for the implementation. 20:59:37 ok 21:01:08 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.136.105] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:02 -!- slymac [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:06:13 phao [~phao@189.107.178.222] has joined #scheme 21:07:15 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 21:09:16 seangrove [~user@cpe-76-171-251-67.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:14:02 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:49 -!- teurastaja [~teurastaj@modemcable224.15-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:17:09 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 21:18:59 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 21:19:17 MononcQc [~ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:24:35 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ac735ac.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 21:31:57 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-60-170.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 21:33:33 -!- luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:56 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-204-229.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:40:19 peter_12 [~peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:41:21 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 21:41:30 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-204-229.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:43:22 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-204-229.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:43:49 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.178.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46:20 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-204-229.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:50:38 nurv [nurv@62.32.146.157] has joined #scheme 21:50:59 Hi. 21:52:32 hello. 21:52:37 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 21:52:42 Ftaghn. 21:53:42 Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 21:56:25 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:57:31 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:58:55 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 21:59:34 Humpvnhpfth. 22:00:05 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7C8F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:47 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:02:34 marcoecc 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mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 22:35:32 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 22:47:59 peter_12 [~peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 23:05:47 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:57 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:15:55 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:18:43 Omancho [~Omancho@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:22:08 Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:24:25 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:25:29 -!- Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:33 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:43:53 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:48 sjamaan: I wouldn't call that perfectionism. 23:45:26 sjamaan: if it were perfectionism, I could do it with less number of hacks. 23:46:29 slyphon_ [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has joined #scheme 23:46:35 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-129.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:46:52 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-129.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:47:13 -!- Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: good night (cya at European Lisp Symposium 2010!!!)]