00:00:07 I find that it works much better to introduce the students to the new concept without lumping it with a new syntax -- and worse, with a statically typed language. 00:00:24 It's just leading to enough noise that the laziness gets lost in it. 00:00:41 I was more interested in ideas like types and typeclasses. Oz actually does laziness well, from a teaching point of view. 00:01:02 Paraselene_ [~Not@79-68-232-53.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 00:01:11 There is an explicit "mark variable as lazy" primitive. 00:01:24 That would be easy with Scheme, of course. 00:01:31 Probably a three-line macro. 00:01:35 It's always better if you can get to the point and the language is orthogonal and predictable. (never used Lazy Scheme, although Typed Scheme is great) 00:01:54 A relevant point here: if you look at my course, you'll see that the language that we're using is based on typed scheme, 00:02:16 extended with a very ML/Haskell-like type definitions for disjoint types. 00:02:39 yeah, that would scratch my haskell itch. I agree less languages would be better. 00:02:49 MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:03:09 Here's the quick first example of an evaluator in my language: http://pl.barzilay.org/ae.scm 00:03:37 Shriram tends to like it in general, but of course for him switching the book to be based on typed scheme is a much larger effort. 00:04:08 (I've used typed scheme since the beginning, and my course was a rich source of making it more stable.) 00:04:23 -!- Paraselene [~Not@79-68-232-53.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:04:24 bremner, interesting book 00:04:28 I think it is a very good thing that students can get all along with one environment and set of tools. 00:04:36 Yes, definitely. 00:05:01 That also simplifies their use at home. 00:05:44 the canonical text prescribed to me by friends is SICP (sussman/abelson) 00:05:52 My most extreme case of this is a language that is "just like scheme", except that it's lazy, curried, have no implicitly recursive `define's, and has no built-ins besides `lambda' and function application. 00:06:04 russkey [~russkey@ool-18bb0ebd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:04 IOW, it's a lambda-calculus language. 00:06:25 Then I show in class how to implement everything that is needed on top of that. 00:06:28 http://pl.barzilay.org/church.scm 00:06:48 I mean using Haskell or Ocaml on Windows for example can be painful. 00:07:11 -!- MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:07:22 Yes -- I'm taking it one step further with PLT: it's all the exact same environment with a different `#lang' header. 00:07:41 So you stay with a single and portable implementation -- and you also *use* it in a very consistent way. 00:07:59 That's great, they can concentrate on the course 00:08:03 instead of fighting tools. 00:08:05 (I.e., you have the same toolset in the typed language, the lambda calculus language, and the lazy language.) 00:08:29 And with one directive see the differences and test between them. 00:08:30 Yes, it worked very well overall. 00:08:47 I don't think I could ever cover LC as well as I do now. 00:08:53 Like: Let's see how this works first with eager, then with lazy evaluation, and so on. 00:09:00 Exactly. 00:09:05 -!- russkey [~russkey@ool-18bb0ebd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:05 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:05 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:09:05 -!- saccade [~saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:11:18 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 00:11:52 russkey [~russkey@ool-18bb0ebd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:12:29 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:13:23 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 00:13:37 proqesi [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 00:15:32 MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:16:25 thanks for all the feedback on plai folks. 00:18:19 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 00:18:19 saccade [~saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:19:21 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:53 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 00:20:23 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.16.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:59 nurv|afk [nurv@83.231.10.88] has joined #scheme 00:21:22 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.37] has joined #scheme 00:21:27 -!- nurv|afk is now known as nurv 00:23:46 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:24:53 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.10.88] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33:05 schmir [~schmir@p54A93D03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 00:34:03 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit 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timeout: 264 seconds] 20:02:47 sralmai [~sralmai@fire.student.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 20:04:32 foof`: sorry, please ignore me 20:06:27 choas [~lars@p5B0DBB33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:17:44 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:27:13 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:34:59 -!- choas [~lars@p5B0DBB33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:43:35 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:46:05 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@241.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:49:16 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Quit: Smoove out.] 20:50:14 clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 21:02:26 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:22 turbofail [~user@adsl-69-238-246-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:33:37 -!- slymac [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:39:52 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:40:10 arg. plt's xmlrpc lib is driving me nuts 21:40:13 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:40:58 -!- npe [~npe@94-224-250-44.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: npe] 21:47:18 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-56-82-255-199-249.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 21:47:44 thom_logn, whats wrong with it 21:50:25 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:53:51 Nothing! Hooray! It works now.... only had to read thru 4 sets of conflicting documentation, and one typo by me 22:02:34 -!- sralmai [~sralmai@fire.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:03:52 slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has joined #scheme 22:06:04 -!- Dark-Star is now known as Dark-Star|Zzz 22:09:22 acarrico [~acarrico@adsl-074-185-017-136.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 22:27:27 sralmai [~sralmai@173-26-194-97.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 22:42:54 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:12 -!- Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 22:43:18 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 22:43:51 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:49:40 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 22:52:00 -!- sralmai [~sralmai@173-26-194-97.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:54:30 -!- slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:56:13 proqesi [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 22:57:32 -!- strobedream [~tdgonzale@c-68-35-75-177.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:57:43 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 23:00:47 reading JRM's syntax-rules primer and finally kinda getting it :) 23:02:36 I need to take two symbols in a macro combine them to make a new symbol "a.b". I can do that with syntax-rules, right? 23:05:23 nope 23:07:04 no? is it possible with syntax-case (????) I saw something about that 23:07:38 yes 23:07:49 koay. argh LOL 23:09:08 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 23:09:49 you can basically do whatever you want in syntax-case 23:10:03 incubot: have you known someone who died from semicolon cancer? 23:10:07 Someone once said SICP is 'The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs,' the Abelson and Sussman textbook used in the freshmen computer science course at MIT 23:10:22 haven't read much about it. mostly define-syntax 23:11:06 is it much more complicated than define-syntax? 23:11:09 both syntax-rules and syntax-case produce "syntax transformers" that get used with define-syntax 23:11:23 syntax-rules... define-syntax is an overarching concept. 23:11:34 but yes, it is more complicated 23:11:38 ah. yes 23:11:40 than syntax-rules 23:12:19 I'm a def-macro guy. Still not totally sold on it, but trying 23:12:24 there are many more "define-syntax" systems and they can have different properties. 23:13:00 *wonders if there is a "define-syntax systems wiki page* 23:14:55 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:17:16 oleg kiselyov wrote a scheme->syntax-rules compiler a while back... sounded kind of interesting, but to the best of my knowledge it only works on bigloo 23:17:58 http://tinyurl.com/2u9txl5 (lol;) 23:18:09 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 23:20:11 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-71.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:20:38 oleg is on the second page... 23:21:37 incubot: entertain me! 23:21:40 I'm bored. Entertain me. 23:21:53 *sladegen* grumbles... 23:22:12 smells like scheme spirit 23:38:16 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 23:43:18 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:49:54 strobedream [~tdgonzale@c-68-35-75-177.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:57:38 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]