00:02:17 _rata_: That depends entirely on your use patterns and on your implementation. 00:02:52 _rata_, not really. For that library, I just placed a symlink to the spells directory in my IKARUS_LIBRARY_PATH 00:02:53 IJP: indeed, that was inspired by EOPL's macros 00:03:18 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-48.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:03:37 <_rata_> IJP: do you use ikarus? is it still mantained? 00:04:25 as far as I know :) 00:04:25 _rata_: I'm actually working on an installer for R6RS code (http://rotty.yi.org/software/dorodango/), work in progress, but a first release on the horizon 00:05:23 <_rata_> rotty: that would be great :) 00:06:25 <_rata_> *will be 00:06:27 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:07:44 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-38-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:08:02 -!- dfkjjkfd_ [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:09:29 <_rata_> rotty: how should I import the algebraic-types.sls? I tried (load "algebraic-types.sls") from mzscheme, ikarus and larceny, but it doesn't work 00:10:12 _rata_: (import (spells algebraic-types)) 00:10:29 -!- MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 00:10:30 bweaver [~user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:10:46 you need to put it in the collection/library path, as IJP indicated 00:11:29 <_rata_> ok, thanks 00:13:17 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:32 rotty: did you decide on a name for the r6rs ports? 00:13:38 MononcQc [~ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:14:56 phao [~phao@189.107.129.188] has joined #scheme 00:15:28 unless there are (timely) objections, I'm going with "wak" (Mayan for "six") 00:16:52 http://www.native-languages.org/maya_numbers.htm 00:17:07 <_rata_> rotty: my ikarus (version 0.0.3) fail to import the library saying "invalid import spec" 00:17:25 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.9] has joined #scheme 00:17:38 _rata_: you should really get Ikarus from bzr, it has much improved since 0.0.3 00:18:20 <_rata_> ok 00:20:19 <_rata_> has anyone be able to connect slime to ikarus or larceny? 00:20:26 <_rata_> *been 00:24:14 I think a writing a slime backend is requires quite a lot of work -- I don't know of any such effort (there's a slime backend for Scheme 48 1.3, but otherwise...) 00:24:39 s/a writing/writing/ 00:32:37 good night, fellow Schemers 00:32:41 *rotty* --> bed 00:33:11 night 00:36:02 noob question about scoping: is (lambda () (let* ((x 1) (y (+ x 1))) (+ x y))) the same as (lambda () (define x 1) (define y (+ x 1)) (+ x y)) ? 00:38:18 <_rata_> good night rotty 00:39:45 arcfide: you're just begging people to attack you by claiming memory usage doesn't matter :) 00:41:03 foof: I never said that memory usage doesn't matter. I said that arguing that a four times constant increase in memory usage over a period of a decade or so when our memory sizes have increased far beyond that is not a good argument. 00:41:05 somnium: in this case yes, but inner defines are more like letrec* than let* 00:41:40 foof: But I suppose that you're likely right. 00:42:10 foof: I agree that text objects are a good idea. I don't think that we should try to alter Strings to bring them into the language, though. 00:43:11 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:44:02 <_rata_> there's already a slime backend for ikarus and larceny from the slime cvs, but I can't make them work yet :( 00:44:17 IJP: okay, because the evaluation of the last argument to a define is deferred during expansion? (been reading R6RS spec, though some things still are foggy, particularly syntax-rules/syntax-case) 00:46:59 foof: Do you know who wants records in WG1? 00:47:09 arcfide: a) i'm not arguing for Riastradh's proposal, just using it as an example of what sort of API is possible 00:47:48 b) the proposal is for a new type, but i'm talking about applying that API to native strings 00:47:54 foof: Indeed. No, you're fine. :-) You're quite an agreeable sort of person on the lists. :-) 00:48:52 foof: Yeah. I can't justify replacing the existing paradigm with a new paradigm and calling them the same name. We would still want the old paradigm around in one form or another, and I'd prefer to map the old paradigm to the name we've always used for it, and introduce the new paradigm under a new name in WG2. 00:49:07 can anyone suggest resources for grokking syntax-case? (Im only familiar with Clojure's CL-style defmacro) 00:49:22 somnium: What's your level of Scheme experience? 00:49:27 arcfide: My desktop computer may now have 8GB of RAM, but that doesn't mean that economy of memory usage is pointless; rather, it means that devices that previously had too few resources to consider programming in Scheme are now viable targets. My G1, for what it's worth, only has about 100MB or so of user memory. 00:49:34 CL-style defmacro is a completely different beast than SYNTAX-CASE. 00:49:48 somnium: I'd definitely recommend TSPL, but you might want to start with a primer on `syntax-rules' first. 00:50:01 very low, but Ive used clojure a lot and elisp when I have to 00:50:08 chandler: I agree. I also agree that having efficient text object representations is important, but I don't think strings are the place to do it. 00:50:50 somnium: There's a book "The Scheme Programming Language" which could be a good place to start with the overall stuff, but you'll also want to read the R6RS standards document and the other papers about hygienic macros in general. 00:51:09 There are some papers on SYNTAX-CASE, but they might be too much for you to understand if you don't have some grasp of Scheme already. 00:51:24 somnium: See http://www.xs4all.nl/~hipster/lib/scheme/gauche/define-syntax-primer.txt for a good starting point on `syntax-rules'. 00:51:41 somnium: If I were you, i would start with learning how Scheme works, and then learning SYNTAX-RULES, which will introduce you to hygienic macros, and then you can see how SYNTAX-CASE extends that. 00:51:51 somnium: And here's TSPL: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ 00:52:06 arcfide: What, in your opinion, are strings to be used for? 00:52:18 I *think* I get syntax-rules, or at least Ive been able to use it in practice (the PLT docs were helpful, the R6RS spec less so) 00:52:29 thanks! will examine all of these 00:52:36 somnium: The big difference is that you should stop thinking about macros as functions from lists and symbols to lists and symbols to transformers from syntax objects to syntax objects. 00:52:57 chandler: Strings are to be used whenever you want character vectors. 00:53:12 And what's a mutable character vector good for? 00:53:17 Andrej [~Andrej@BSN-61-38-73.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #scheme 00:53:55 Straightforwardly implementing algorithms defined for character arrays, for example. Of as a primitive elements in more sophisticated structures. 00:56:27 What's the reason, in your opinion, to have a disjoint character type, and a string type disjoint from bytevectors or the equivalent of (unsigned-byte 32) arrays? 00:57:06 I personally can't see any reason why bytevectors don't satisfy those two uses myself. 00:57:10 For reasons historical, as well as for potentially implementing them more efficiently. 00:57:14 -!- Andrej1 [~Andrej@89.142.220.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:58:11 Are you suggesting that we work with characters as numbers, entirely, and have no disjoint character type? 00:58:39 For one thing, I would argue that it's good to have a clear distinction between characters and natural numbers, for example. 00:58:57 Characters have a specific fixed range. Integers don't. 00:59:46 No. I'm suggesting that you don't have a good justification for having disjoint character and string types. 01:00:14 Isn't clarity of the code enough of a justification? 01:00:48 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:00:48 If I'm dealing with characters, and I am forced to work with them as integers, there's a specific type conflation there, and that makes the code harder for me and a compiler to understand or reason about. 01:01:12 Characters or code points are not the same as unlimited range integers. 01:01:25 I would argue that in the world of Unicode, replacing a character in a mutable character vector is not a very clear operation regardless. One might be using this construct as an implementation representation for a gap buffer, I suppose. 01:02:05 I'm assuming that characters have a direct mapping onto code points. 01:02:13 Yes, and my statement still holds. 01:02:30 So your working with arrays of code points, but it is good to know that you are working with code points, rather than with some arbitrary integers and arrays of bytes. 01:03:20 So, one thing that I want to say is, "This is a vector of elements which are integers in this fixed range that must be accessed on these boundaries." Integers and bytevectors don't provide that. 01:03:55 One could certainly define such an abstraction implemented on top of bytevectors - just as you're proposing that more useful forms of editable text be built on top of mutable character vectors. 01:03:58 I could access the bytevector 8-bits at a time, for example, which I want to be able to tell myself, and perhaps the compiler, is not possible. 01:04:36 Yes, and I think that bytevectors are important, as a primitive, since, to my understanding, unicode algorithsm and the like are defined on byte streams. 01:05:02 -!- FatsDT [~fdt@97-125-47-100.eugn.qwest.net] has left #scheme 01:05:21 I just think that the historical context, combined with the fact that you really do want to have this very common abstraction around, is good enough to keep it as it is. 01:05:50 I mean, it's kind of weird, in my mind, to drop an abstraction that has been around for so long. 01:06:08 And dropping the abstraction doesn't have a precedence in the Scheme community, either. 01:06:27 I haven't seen the Text Objects api in heavy, strong, multi-implementation use. 01:06:38 I'm not seriously suggesting you drop strings. I am seriously suggesting that you drop mutable (with the only allowed mutation being replacement of a single code point) strings. 01:06:43 Oh, and `string-ref'. 01:06:45 I plan on implementing it in Chez and trying it out to see what I think. 01:06:57 samth [~samth@c-76-24-223-184.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:07:19 chandler: See, but by suggesting that we drop ref and set!, you are suggesting that we drop strings as we know them, because that's often how I use strings. 01:07:48 -!- _rata_ [~929bd90b@gateway/web/freenode/x-ffjmkukgwnaggudo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:07:54 Can you point me to some code of yours that uses `string-set!'? 01:08:41 chandler: Right now my base64 and my query-strings libraries use it. 01:10:42 I'm not sure what the latter is. The former, it seems to me, ought to be written with bytestrings anyway. 01:11:31 I'd be rather surprised to see something which has been BASE64 encoded, then encoded via UTF-16. 01:12:47 So you want a bytestring? 01:13:04 Why can't strings be the bytestring and text objects be the immutable api? 01:13:20 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:13:59 Er, sorry, I meant bytevectors. 01:14:40 chandler: The output that I wanted was a string. 01:14:54 The incoming form is a bytestream. 01:15:22 Isn't this a perfect example of where truly editable texts would be more useful? 01:15:35 What do you mean? 01:16:18 If your input is a stream, wouldn't it be better to be able to grow the output text? 01:17:56 Oh, I just thought of another place where I use a string-set!, but implicitly. 01:18:01 When I create custom ports. 01:18:35 Of course, with binary ports, you would naturally use bytevectors. 01:18:38 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.129.188] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:19:36 Anyways, even the API from Riastradh has a STRING-REF equivalent. 01:19:49 I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to by "custom ports" here. 01:20:13 Is this ala SRFI-6? 01:20:29 Custom ports allow me to define new port types. 01:20:44 I can then use things like put-char and get-char on them. 01:21:00 And how do you use `string-set!' in this case? 01:21:03 In some types of ports, I'm working at the textual level, rather than the byte level. 01:21:13 So I have a buffer for buffered read and write. 01:21:17 Two buffers actually. 01:21:29 I read into that buffer, and I write out to the output buffer. 01:21:38 I don't want to be allocating that buffer over and over again. 01:21:48 So string-set! is used. 01:22:09 Hrm, Can KMP string matching be implemented easily without mutable strings? 01:22:17 Or, without STRING-REF? 01:22:37 Yes, it can be implemented with immutable strings. 01:22:53 But without STRING-REF? 01:23:10 If the implementation uses UTF-8 as its internal representation, it will always be more efficient - and correct - to implement it as matching on the underlying byte string. 01:23:27 Thus, a string-matching operation ought to be provided as a primitive, not implemented by the user. 01:23:49 So you're also going to provide bitwise fuzzy string matching to the user as well? 01:24:15 Or any of the other various string matching algorithms that are used in various domains? 01:24:50 Regarding buffering, is buffering fully decoded characters desirable? It seems to me that this is an opportunity for problems involving decode errors on characters that would never actually be read in practice. 01:24:57 And what if an implementation uses UTF-32 as its underlying representation? 01:24:58 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:31 chandler: I think it depends on the application. 01:26:00 Regardless, you could still implement your buffers with editable texts. 01:26:10 I'm not sure regarding the string matching question. I'd like to allow implementations to have the flexibility of using UTF-8 under the hood. 01:26:17 chandler: When I'm working with a serial device, no, I want bytevectors, but if I'm working with some other application, perhaps one that is generating results a character at a time programmatically, then I think it's reasonable to use character arrays. 01:26:47 chandler: The point is that UTF-8 is better as a bytevector, but there's no reason to sacrifice strings to get text objects. 01:26:49 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:26:51 I just want to have both. 01:27:13 For what it's worth, given the range limit on characters, I can't see a reasonable implementation actually boxing them, which implies that ordinary mutable vectors can be used as a vector of codepoints without performance penalty. 01:27:57 (Perhaps some implementations do, but this is by my own definition unreasonable. :-) 01:28:06 Chez Scheme's vector implementation will incur a big penalty if you use vectors with characters in it as opposed to a special string type. 01:28:13 Why? 01:28:24 Because Chez can't prove which elements are immediate and which are not. 01:29:02 This means that it can't avoid the elements of the vectors when doing garbage collection. 01:29:17 This is why fxvectors exist in Chez. 01:29:19 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:24 Ah. Fair enough. 01:29:37 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.9] has joined #scheme 01:30:01 Now, if you got rid of characters, and forced everything to work at the integer level, then yes, I think you'd probably be fine efficiency-wise with bytevectors. 01:30:18 However, I don't think either of us is suggesting that. 01:30:26 No, I'm not. 01:30:40 And if we're going to have a string and character abstraction, then I'd argue that we should have a mutable version that is efficient. 01:32:01 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.149.41] has joined #scheme 01:33:30 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:40 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-231.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:37:10 chandler: one of larceny's string representations is actually a vector of boxed characters with a different tag! 01:37:17 _danb_ [~user@124-171-10-82.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 01:41:14 (the vector has a different tag, not the chars) 01:42:42 -!- elderK 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08:03:20 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:58 -!- futilius [~otheruser@2001:470:d:128:216:3eff:fe86:c70e] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:12:32 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 08:13:14 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:13:36 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 08:22:07 futilius [~otheruser@cow9.org] has joined #scheme 08:27:34 ktzqbp [~ktzqbp@unaffiliated/ktzqbp] has joined #scheme 08:42:47 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 08:43:27 david00 [~david@188-220-16-185.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:45:22 -!- ktzqbp [~ktzqbp@unaffiliated/ktzqbp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:45:41 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:46:06 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-141-157-238-16.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:51:14 Hey 08:53:24 In C it's possible to use isatty() function to detect a TTY on standard input 08:53:49 anyone know if PLT has a similar function? 08:58:50 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-68-237-97-217.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:06:47 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:10:14 phao [~phao@189.107.136.63] has joined #scheme 09:20:33 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:25:58 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 09:26:50 analogAndroid [~davebot@hil-101-218.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 09:32:00 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:16 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 09:32:47 masm [~masm@bl7-94-209.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:48:52 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:26 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 09:52:42 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit 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alvatar [~alvatar@191.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:09:40 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 12:10:22 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@191.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:11:09 luz [~davids@189.122.81.40] has joined #scheme 12:12:02 alvatar [~alvatar@124.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:20:18 nurv [nurv@83.231.82.31] has joined #scheme 12:22:30 -!- samth [~samth@c-76-24-223-184.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:22:48 davazp [~user@ucaip182.uca.es] has joined #scheme 12:36:17 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 12:38:11 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-55-243.gmavt.net] has left #scheme 12:40:04 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46:02 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-55-243.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 12:48:31 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 12:56:16 sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 12:59:24 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 13:05:23 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:11:42 Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 13:16:23 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 13:17:26 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 13:20:51 david00, it should be easy to use the ffi to wrap isatty() 13:21:18 thanks samth 13:23:43 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.180.190] has joined #scheme 13:33:26 -!- davazp [~user@ucaip182.uca.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:34:22 rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 13:35:07 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 13:43:43 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:45:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit 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has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:35:55 schmir [~schmir@p54A90AFE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 15:36:02 Narrenschiff_ [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 15:36:27 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-71.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:36:35 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:37:40 -!- Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:37:41 -!- Narrenschiff_ is now known as Narrenschiff 15:38:49 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 15:44:03 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 15:45:37 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90AFE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:45:47 fabe [~fabe@p54A7D950.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:46:22 -!- ktzqbp [~ktzqbp@unaffiliated/ktzqbp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:50:10 -!- alvatar 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[~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:26:33 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-zxofbykcirqqafwz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:33:41 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:38:29 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:39:30 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45:53 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:50:19 -!- davazp [~user@ucaip182.uca.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:51:52 Narrenschiff_ [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 16:53:52 -!- Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:53:52 -!- Narrenschiff_ is now known as Narrenschiff 16:56:21 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 16:58:43 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:01:31 saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-77-78.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:04:18 -!- saccade_ [~saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:05:47 _rata_ [~929bd90b@gateway/web/freenode/x-mzsqkcfziftqvtqx] has joined #scheme 17:07:17 <_rata_> hi schemers 17:09:59 And racketeers! 17:13:22 Daemmerung [~goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 17:13:36 saccade_ [~saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:15:10 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@129-97-208-195.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:19:34 -!- ktzqbp_ [~ktzqbp@unaffiliated/ktzqbp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:28:34 <_rata_> racketeers? 17:28:45 PLTers. :-) 17:29:28 <_rata_> ok :) 17:30:23 <_rata_> and does (almost) everyone here use PLT? 17:30:27 Hah! 17:30:50 I can't speak for the rest of these crazy folks, but I use Chez, which is not PLT, thankyouverymuch. ;-) 17:31:10 <_rata_> ok 17:31:38 <_rata_> which program/programming environment do you use? 17:32:05 jjjj2_ [~jon@eng-5-101.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:33:04 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:35:21 _rata_: You mean like an IDE? 17:35:54 To program in Scheme I use ChezWEB, Makefiles, the shell, and my text editor de jur. 17:36:04 -!- _rata_ [~929bd90b@gateway/web/freenode/x-mzsqkcfziftqvtqx] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:39:05 when the editor du jour is also the editor de jure 17:39:16 Yes, hehe. 17:39:30 I need to work on my spelling. 17:39:41 No, I thought it was cunning. 17:40:04 A wry comment on the amount of emacs advocacy that takes place herein. Not so bad lately, though. 17:40:09 _rata_ [~929bd90b@gateway/web/freenode/x-ggxjwgrhiarqilue] has joined #scheme 17:42:00 <_rata_> hi again 17:42:24 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@2002:8161:d0c3::8161:d0c3] has joined #scheme 17:42:52 Hi. 17:42:54 <_rata_> arcfide: sorry, which program/programming environment do you use? 17:43:04 LOL, Last time I told you you left. ;-) 17:43:37 _rata_: Currently, I use ChezWEB, Makefiles, the shell (Ksh), and my text editor de {jur,jour,jure}. :-) 17:46:20 jjjj2__ [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:46:43 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:46:47 <- gambit user here 17:47:02 -!- jjjj2__ [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:47:24 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:47:55 I think that among the regulars, we have Chicken, Gambit, Scheme48, MIT, Chez, PLT, Guile, IronScheme, and possibly a couple of others fairly represented. 17:47:58 Oh, and Chibi, of course. 17:48:12 chibi? haven't heard of that one 17:48:18 It's foof's creation. 17:50:10 -!- jjjj2_ [~jon@eng-5-101.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:50:46 My current editor is THE, which has been quite fun to play with. 17:50:56 Especially since I have the keyboard to really get into the Retro feel. 17:56:29 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:56:42 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:59:11 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:08 -!- luz [~davids@189.122.81.40] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 18:01:06 -!- arcfide [arcfide@99.57.0.14] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.8 -- Are we there yet?] 18:03:00 THE sounds like the most ungoogleable program ever 18:03:35 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06:35 snorble: search for "hessling editor" 18:07:41 schmir [~schmir@p54A90523.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:07:56 <_rata_> hahahahaha 18:08:31 <_rata_> I've been searching for a good programming environment for scheme 18:08:44 <_rata_> I like DrScheme, but it is too slow in my machine 18:09:27 <_rata_> and as I learned CL first, I'd like to have slime+scheme 18:14:27 <_rata_> I'll try THE :) 18:14:48 <_rata_> Gertm: which programming environment do you use with gambit? 18:15:00 emacs 18:15:20 what do you guys think of PHP? 18:15:55 _rata_: If you use Gambit and need slime support, jlongster is working on a swank backend for Gambit: 18:16:02 rapacity: I don't like it so much after I did a semi-large project in it. 18:16:09 Excellent for hypertext processing. 18:16:18 swank-gambit, awesome! need to check that out 18:16:21 However, I don't process hypertext. 18:17:51 rapacity: my experience is that it encourages bad coding style. Then again, I was young and very green, so it could have been just my own bad coding style. 18:19:19 ah 18:20:04 Do not take my word for it. Just try it. Maybe you'll love it, who knows? :) 18:20:27 err I ditched it a year ago 18:20:42 ah 18:20:51 For good reasons probably? :) 18:21:07 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:21:11 yeah alot of reasons 18:21:34 it didn't have namespaces when I was using it 18:21:39 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 18:21:41 <_rata_> swank-gambit! I'll try that out too 18:21:41 <_rata_> :) 18:21:43 and doesn't have thread support 18:21:49 nor did it have closures 18:22:21 php 4? 18:22:24 _rata_, Gertm: I don't think it's done yet, but parts of it work, last I heard. 18:22:29 php 5 18:22:33 that was the version I was using.. 18:22:34 ah 18:22:47 bweaver: I'll keep an eye on it, sounds promising 18:23:20 <_rata_> me too 18:28:49 jlongster [~user@173-164-11-142-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:32:54 ok serious scheme question now: I'm switching from CL, for fun and.. fun, and I'm struggling with continuations. Does anyone have a good link where they're explained? 18:33:41 <_rata_> there's a swank backend for Ikarus and Larceny in the main slime cvs, but I couldn't make them work 18:33:57 I've already found a few, but I could read some more so I really get what they are useful for. 18:34:07 Gertm, http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4e1f782be5ba2841 18:35:09 thanks! 18:36:22 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:36:57 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:51 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-55-243.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:38:53 russkey [~russkey@ool-18bb0ebd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 18:38:55 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@250.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:39:17 -!- jlongster [~user@173-164-11-142-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:02 has anybody run mit-scheme under macports? i'm getting things like ^[[A when i hit the up arrow key. any ideas? 18:41:36 -!- MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 18:43:19 hmm nice article. Would it be totally wrong to compare continuations to partial application but with more features? Or am I on the wrong track here? 18:44:27 It probablywould. 18:44:48 Try to work out the yin/yang puzzle 18:44:51 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:44:55 Gertm, continuations are not like partial appliaction 18:45:09 http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/callcc.html 18:45:10 yin/yang puzzle? 18:46:25 I hope you already know what a continuation is. 18:47:33 I have this feeling im very very close to getting it... 18:47:49 russkey: mit-scheme doesn't have any readline functionality built in. Try using it under its editor edwin, under emacs or wrapped with rlwrap 18:48:41 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 18:53:49 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:54:27 Hm, nevermind that last link, it's mostly rubbish 18:56:22 ugh, I was halfway through it but didn't get any wiser 18:56:35 I'm reading the example from 'a tour of lisp with gambit' 18:57:02 err, tour of scheme, sorry 18:57:51 but the example code seems useless... he passes '1' and gets '1' back, same with '2'.. 18:58:32 The unusually informative wikipedia article lists several applications 18:59:46 oh wait, if I were to add code after the call/cc bit, it would use the value I give it as the value that call/cc s-expr would return 19:01:00 rudybot, eval (define call/cc call-with-current-continuation) 19:01:07 Jafet: your sandbox is ready 19:01:43 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:03:31 rudybot, eval (define (f c) (display "f ") (c 1) (display " never gets here") 2) (display (call/cc f)) 19:03:31 Jafet: ; stdout: "f 1" 19:06:44 rudybot, eval (define (g c) (f c) (display " nor here")) (call/cc g) 19:06:45 Jafet: ; Value: 1 19:06:46 Jafet: ; stdout: "f " 19:21:46 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 19:32:24 sloyd: maybe this is blasphemouse, but is there a non-emacs binding system that uses scheme? (vi bindings perhaps?) 19:35:40 What is a "binding system"? 19:37:00 well, keyboard bindings is what i mean 19:37:37 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: copumpkin] 19:37:42 I'm still not following you. Scheme is a language. How would it have keyboard bindings? Can you provide an example of what you want? 19:37:43 Jafet: the wikipedia entry is useful indeed. I feel like I have the info I need, I'll try to work out the yin/yang puzzle now. Thanks for the help. 19:37:46 emacs keyboard bindings are rather obscure, and at this point, since i have been using vim for years, it seems a waste to try to relearn 19:38:08 well, edwin was what we were discussing, Daemmerung 19:38:24 FatsDT [~fdt@97-125-47-100.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 19:38:35 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:40:28 So you want an editor or other inferior-scheme environment that uses hjkl for cursor motion. 19:41:33 I think I remember Petite Chez/SWL having something. Not vi, but not emacs, either. 19:41:57 perhaps, the only thing i'm really bothered by is the fact that the mit-scheme system doesn't seem to have command repetition like bash with the up arrow key 19:43:29 russkey: it's strange that you call emacs' bindings obscure, but not bash's 19:44:39 there's really nothing obscure about an up arrow for the previous command! (well thats pretty much the only kebinding i use, besides the tab key for completion) 19:44:45 set -o emacs 19:45:56 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-55-243.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 19:45:57 where does one set such a thing, Daemmerung? 19:46:06 russkey: in bash! hence IJP's bemusement 19:46:26 it has `set -o vi' as well 19:46:31 russkey: does edwin not support ctrl-uparrow for history? IIRC that's the DrScheme mnem 19:54:04 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 19:59:50 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 20:00:26 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 20:01:43 question.. in my procedure (http://pastebin.com/AJZiKfcW) I need to output either #t or #f, depending on a condition. How can I do this if I'm not allowed to use procedures like (display)? 20:02:24 note that the existing display statements are for debugging only ;) 20:04:10 Daemmerung: doesn't seem to. though perhaps it has something to do with screen interfering 20:04:56 n/m, was able to fix it 20:06:12 -!- Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:06:43 mflatt_ [~mflatt@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:06:53 jao [~jao@6.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:10:30 Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 20:27:04 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-71.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:12 <_rata_> how do I bind C-c C-c in emacs to slime-eval-last-expression when I'm in Scheme mode? 20:27:22 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-71.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:27:48 -!- mflatt_ [~mflatt@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:10 mflatt [~mflatt@sniar.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:34:25 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:34:35 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 20:34:48 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 20:35:10 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:37:39 _rata_: (define-key scheme-mode-map (kbd "C-c C-c") 'slime-eval-last-expression) 20:37:50 though i'm not sure scheme-mode-map exists ;) 20:39:19 mflatt_ [~mflatt@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:39:24 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:31 -!- mflatt_ [~mflatt@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:42 -!- mflatt [~mflatt@sniar.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:53 mflatt [~mflatt@sniar.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:40:00 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 20:41:23 <_rata_> ecraven: thank you a lot! :) 20:41:29 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:41:47 <_rata_> scheme-mode-map doesn't exist though :( 20:42:32 <_rata_> but I'm closer to a working solution to make gambit work with slime 20:42:46 -!- Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:44:49 I'm very new to this language. Where do I find documentation for built in procedures? 20:45:22 FatsDT, that depends what implementation you're using 20:45:42 PLT Scheme has very comprehensive documentation here: http://docs.plt-scheme.org 20:47:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:49:58 mflatt_ [~mflatt@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:50:14 -!- mflatt_ [~mflatt@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:15 -!- mflatt [~mflatt@sniar.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:37 mflatt [~mflatt@sniar.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:52:49 I am using PLT Scheme, and I'm looking for a procedure that gives me the maximum value in a list. Do I need to write my own? 20:53:31 <_rata_> (apply max lst) 20:54:59 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:55:09 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has joined #scheme 20:55:11 Thanks. 20:55:56 Now, how do work backwards and figure that out from docs? 20:56:48 -!- mflatt [~mflatt@sniar.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:58:53 If you had started with the "quick introduction" in the docs, it mentions it :) 21:00:22 I may have blasted right through that. I just found it in PLT Scheme reference. I think I'm good for awhile now. 21:00:52 er Reference: PLT Scheme 21:02:17 The Guide is probably more useful than the reference if you are just starting out 21:04:09 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:12 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:39 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:06:24 Daemmerung [~goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 21:06:56 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:04 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:10 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:12:39 grr.. why does my '#f end up as an empty line? http://pastebin.com/FQ1nrUxn 21:13:27 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7D950.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:59 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5BE8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:37:07 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:41:44 rapopp:you aren't actually returning #f, you are returning the value of (newline) 21:46:31 mflatt [~mflatt@c-67-172-254-180.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:47:10 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:48:30 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 21:50:42 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-77-78.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:52:01 <_rata_> does anybody use quack? 21:52:02 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:00:05 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: Class!] 22:00:43 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90523.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:44 MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:03:19 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:49 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5BE8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:13 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@95-24-164-60.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:20:37 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:21:28 -!- MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:26:18 -!- mflatt [~mflatt@c-67-172-254-180.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #scheme 22:28:21 -!- Andrej [~Andrej@BSN-61-38-73.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:29:01 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 22:30:17 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:31:54 phao [~phao@189.107.224.217] has joined #scheme 22:32:16 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:25 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:34:05 MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:42:09 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.224.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:48:22 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Quit: http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/dj_jeezy.jpg] 22:48:42 Hey all, want to work on playing with webgl in scheme 22:49:00 Any experiences/suggestions for scheme/javascript interop? 22:57:47 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:05 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 23:06:01 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:06:43 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 23:08:51 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:14:04 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:14:26 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 23:22:31 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:22:49 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 23:31:22 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:46 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 23:36:01 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:41:40 Daemmerung [~goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 23:47:37 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:48:14 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 23:59:18 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.209.116] has left #scheme