00:02:02 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:05:28 Leonidas pasted "broken macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97702 00:05:55 -!- br1 [~Bruno@r190-135-54-75.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #scheme 00:06:10 any idea why this macro does not work? I seem to be unable to graps how to match for lists in syntax-rules 00:06:35 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:19 (_ (?car . ?cdr) in ?collection body ...) means that I want (py-for id-list in some-list with some code here), right? 00:07:44 -!- rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:45 rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has joined #scheme 00:11:08 bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.87] has joined #scheme 00:13:04 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 00:13:32 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:14:45 FareWell [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 00:15:28 -!- FareWell [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:15:40 Leonidas: I think the problem is with list in the second clause 00:15:46 If you remove it, it works fine 00:18:39 -!- Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 00:18:50 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 00:19:11 -!- somnium [~user@adsl-243-27-73.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:04 Andrej [~Andrej@BSN-176-167-67.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #scheme 00:20:21 Leonidas: Change (list ?binding) to just (?binding). 00:20:43 IJP: *sigh* I tried just about everything but not that. Thanks, worked 00:21:26 Leonidas: Consider using PLT's macro stepper on problems like these - it's really quite helpful! 00:21:31 -!- Andrej1 [~Andrej@89.142.217.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:21:39 Leonidas: Also, you might want to make `in' a literal. 00:21:55 followup question: I tried moving the (car . cdr) part out to a let but it does not work 00:22:05 chandler: yep, good idea 00:23:38 I'm not sure what you mean by that. 00:23:42 Can you paste the code? 00:24:09 Also, you might want to use something like (id ...) instead of (car . cdr), or (id1 ids ...) if you want to enforce that there must be one element in the list. 00:30:07 chandler: uhm, I feel a bit dumb, but how do I make sure that 'in' is a symbol? 00:30:08 -!- bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.87] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30:38 Leonidas: I'm not sure what you mean by that, either. 00:30:40 Leonidas: (syntax-rules (symbols-go-here) patterns ...) ;) 00:30:45 chandler: I tried the macro stepper, but it wasn't terribly helpful. just did one step and the result was less then enlightening in this case 00:31:01 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:14 IJP: Those are *literals*, not symbols. That may answer the question Leonidas meant to ask, but not the one that was actually asked. 00:31:40 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.87] has joined #scheme 00:31:53 Leonidas annotated #97702 "now with symbols" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97702#1 00:31:57 ah, if he wants to check that its a proper symbol, he'd need to use syntax case 00:32:06 That's not true. 00:32:29 At expansion time, yes? 00:32:52 well, the paste seems to ensure that the syntax is really (py-for whatever in whatever body ...) 00:33:23 Yes, that'll do it. 00:33:27 Can someone look at this and tell me whether this is the right way or just working by accident 00:33:30 thanks 00:33:37 perhaps I am mistaken 00:33:38 IJP: It's possible to test a pattern variable for symbol-ness at expansion time using `syntax-rules. 00:34:29 Leonidas annotated #97702 "using ?bindings and ellipsis" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97702#2 00:34:30 Once you've determined that it's not a list, the basic trick is to determine if it's an identifier or something else by putting it in a rule and seeing if it behaves as a variable or a literal thing. 00:35:02 Of course 00:36:44 oh, now I remember what I'm missing... give me a moment to write some example code 00:40:25 Leonidas: re-email-on-vps: are you not worried about someone getting access to your email (as you are not encrypting your $HOOME)? 00:40:41 Leonidas annotated #97702 "Not constructing the lambda inside a loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97702#3 00:40:51 *srid* is considering to become google-free -- need an gmail alternative. 00:41:24 srid: no, since the vps runs on a server which I am also administrating. 00:41:49 Leonidas: oh? you work for a VPS company? 00:42:32 ,rcirc ssl 00:42:56 oh well, I tried moving the lambda-construction out of the list and demonstrate that it does not work, but it does :) Funky! 00:43:57 srid: no, just rented a dedicated server because I had bad experience with VPS. And because it was so oversized, i decided to set up Xen. 00:44:30 srid: Nothing in email is totally secure. I'd guess that a VPS hosted by a reputable provider is not the weakest link by far. 00:45:00 If security is paramount, use GPG and don't store the key on the email server. 00:45:00 srid: Though I am not really sure how much help an encrypted home is. basically, once an attacker can login to your server, he can read the directory 00:45:22 -!- Andrej [~Andrej@BSN-176-167-67.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:46:17 chandler: I suppose it is better to get the lambda out of the loop, right? 00:46:26 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-203-167.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:47:18 Andrej1 [~Andrej@BSN-176-184-231.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #scheme 00:47:20 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 00:47:36 Leonidas: I wouldn't be surprised if many Schemes optimized it away. 00:49:41 oh, I guess I don't need the additional let ((code ...)), I can move it into the named let. 00:51:06 no, I can't 00:51:30 I think I am satisfied now :) 00:51:41 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 00:51:43 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:58 Why can't you? 00:52:19 Andrej [~Andrej@89.142.213.166] has joined #scheme 00:53:49 -!- Andrej1 [~Andrej@BSN-176-184-231.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:56:01 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:45 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:06:56 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 01:08:30 chandler: because I'd have to specify a the lambda on every call of loop and that does not seem very useful, since the lambda never changes anyway 01:09:01 *Leonidas* adds some more voodoo to make it run in PLT, Ikarus, Larceny and Ypsilon 01:10:20 Leonidas annotated #97702 "r6rs compatible top-level" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97702#4 01:10:59 that one works with plt-r6rs, ikarus and ypsilon, larceny barks a lot of errors and fails to run the program 01:11:12 (and DrScheme fails to run it as well) 01:11:41 Module Language: there can only be one expression in the definitions window 01:12:00 but when I add the #lang scheme directive, the other schemes fail to run it 01:12:37 It's the work of a nefarious racket, trying to keep your small program from working in both PLT and other implementations. :-) 01:13:38 that sounds pretty nefarious, chandler 01:13:44 perhaps they should rename it to make it more apparent? 01:14:31 chandler: seems so. Plus, larceny does such crazy stuff that I better just uninstall it and pretend it doesn't exist. 01:16:22 Can you paste the errors you saw from Larceny? 01:16:54 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:17:27 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:17:41 Leonidas, I think PLT allows the #!r6rs declaration, did you try that? 01:18:38 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 01:21:29 IJP: wow, great. That solved it! 01:25:09 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-142.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28:17 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 01:31:08 sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:12 sstrickl_ [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:12 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:13 -!- sstrickl_ is now known as sstrickl 01:32:18 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 01:33:14 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:27 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 01:34:17 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:37:18 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41:58 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 01:47:19 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.189.221] has left #scheme 01:55:29 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 02:24:48 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 02:24:50 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:25:40 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:33:33 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:13 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:43:23 flonum [~ben@24-138-98-109.zing-net.ca] has joined #scheme 02:43:26 -!- flonum [~ben@24-138-98-109.zing-net.ca] has left #scheme 02:52:33 timj_ [~timj@e176196074.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:19 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176208174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:05:04 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 03:05:21 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:15:05 jao [~jao@83.43.35.213] has joined #scheme 03:26:19 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 03:29:14 -!- MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 03:42:16 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:42:52 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45:02 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-186-239-198.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:54:52 Colloguy [~flx@64.134.236.48] has joined #scheme 03:59:07 -!- srid [~srid@remote.activestate.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:06:26 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #scheme 04:07:12 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:10:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:15:16 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:20:50 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-222-57.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: In my head, I, see, you all over me. In my head, you, ful-fill my fantasy. In my head...] 04:30:56 minion: memo for foof: another probably bug: columnar w/ one column does not expand to available width: (fmt #f (columnar (dsp "foo") " |")) => "foo |\n" ; insert (dsp "") as second column and it will behave correctly 04:30:57 Remembered. I'll tell foof when he/she/it next speaks. 04:31:11 s/y/e 04:32:16 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 04:32:52 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:33:29 -!- rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:34:30 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:34:39 copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:40:07 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 04:49:14 nebogeo [~dave@cs78174123.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 04:55:47 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 04:57:44 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:01 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 05:02:05 -!- nebogeo [~dave@cs78174123.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06:14 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:16 zbigniew: odd, i'll check on that 05:14:17 foof, memo from zbigniew: another probably bug: columnar w/ one column does not expand to available width: (fmt #f (columnar (dsp "foo") " |")) => "foo |\n" ; insert (dsp "") as second column and it will behave correctly 05:14:39 rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has joined #scheme 05:14:55 xray7224 [~xray7224@unaffiliated/xray7224] has joined #scheme 05:17:18 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 05:21:05 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22:13 -!- rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:28:18 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 05:29:52 rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has joined #scheme 05:33:14 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:33:39 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 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[~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 doc_who [~doc_who@c-98-231-201-176.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 mreggen [~mreggen@mreggen.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 chandler [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 mbishop [~martin@adsl-156-73-79.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 dlouhy [~jdlouhy@129.10.116.129] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 elf [elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 05:37:07 DerGuteMoritz [~syn@85.88.17.198] has joined #scheme 05:37:18 a silly question: is there somewhere a htmlizing cross-referencer for scheme code anywhere, around? 05:38:42 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 05:39:39 *sladegen* was just doing global for php, and thought of applying it to some scheme code, but it don't know scheme. perhaps lxr... i see it uses ctags and it says it knows scheme. 05:40:43 it.1=lxr, it.2=ctags 05:41:06 incubot: you should be ashamed of itself. 05:41:09 You'll probably encode the length appart from the content of the string itself... 05:42:26 incubot: being an idealist i'd say string has no lenght, it is length itself. 05:42:29 I am a hippie and idealist, but I actually had the impression that I think about what I say and what my ideas really mean. And yes, I have developed software with people depending on me. No I have not developed software professionally. I hope the latter doesn't make it impossible for you to explain your point? 05:43:35 incubot: so, after all, you are indeed a bit sorry for itself? 05:43:37 I did indeed. 05:43:52 your R! 05:50:26 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 05:51:37 mehgahbleh [~mtndew@x-134-84-81-235.reshalls.umn.edu] has joined #scheme 05:52:55 -!- rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:53:16 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:53:30 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.35] has joined #scheme 05:54:22 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 05:59:48 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:49 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #scheme 06:00:54 foof: sorry to repeatedly bother you. one more stupid question-- 06:00:57 rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has joined #scheme 06:03:04 -!- Colloguy [~flx@64.134.236.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:04:46 foof: is it permissible to use fmt-width from user code, i.e. create your own formatters? i need to fill a column with a character, to do this I require the width of the current column: 06:04:50 (define (fill char) (lambda (st) ((pad-char char (pad/both (fmt-width st))) st))) 06:05:21 e.g. 06:05:23 (fmt #t (columnar "+-" (fill #\-) "-+-" (fill #\-) "-+") (columnar "| " (dsp "foo") " | " (dsp "bar") " |") ) 06:05:43 unless there's an easier way to do this. 06:08:07 (for those following along at home, that writes something like:) 06:08:08 +-----------+-----------+ 06:08:09 | foo | bar | 06:09:43 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:12:12 of course FILL could also be defined like 06:12:15 (define (fill char) (lambda (st) ((cat (make-string (fmt-width st) char)) st))) 06:12:21 but you guys get the point 06:16:50 Excuse me. Doing (define op '+) followed by (op 1 1) will lead to an error. I know we should do (define op +), but is there a way to achieve the same result using '+ ? 06:17:00 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: copumpkin] 06:17:30 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.134] has joined #scheme 06:18:55 ((cdr (assq op `((+ . ,+)))) 1 1) 06:19:21 ;=> 2 06:19:49 I'm quite new to the language, so bear with me please. what does assq do? 06:22:16 it traverses an obsolete data structure 06:22:26 slava: Hahahaha. Some would argue that alists aren't very obsolete. 06:22:34 slava: Especially if your alist is small. 06:22:57 I guess if your alist has 1 or 2 entries it might be faster than a hash 06:23:55 slava: :-P 06:24:22 zbigniew: wrapping the columnar with (pad-char #\-) and then using empty columns should work (i.e. (dsp "")) 06:25:10 mehgahbleh: What zbigniew's code does is build an alist (association list, kinda like a map in Java, but using linear lookup (which is why slava moaned about it)), with '+ (the symbol) as key, and + (the procedure) as value. 06:25:54 mehgahbleh: It then used assq to do an alist lookup (using eq? for equality, which is fine because you're matching on symbols), thus matching '+ with the value of +. 06:26:32 Well, assq actually returns the pair itself ('+ . +), and cdr was used to extract the +. 06:26:42 Ah, ok. Thanks a bunch. Not what I was going for, but I learned something new. :P 06:26:51 mehgahbleh: Hahahaha. 06:27:12 mehgahbleh: Well, the symbol table idea isn't too far off from the Right Thing to do. 06:27:16 I'm trying to rewrite (evaluate) but to a certain minimal level. 06:28:07 rudybot, eval (let ((op '+)) (eval (cons op '(1 1)) (scheme-report-environment 5))) 06:28:19 Jafet: error: with-limit: out of time 06:28:31 *cky* screams at the sight of eval. 06:28:41 eval eval! 06:28:49 is eval the same as evaluate? 06:28:50 Using eval much of the time is the Wrong Thing to do. 06:29:05 mehgahbleh: Strike eval off your dictionary, at least in the beginning. :-P 06:29:23 rm "eval" 06:30:42 :-) 06:31:07 rudybot, eval (let ((op '+)) (eval (cons op '(1 1)) (scheme-report-environment 5))) 06:31:13 Jafet: your sandbox is ready 06:31:14 Jafet: error: reference to undefined identifier: scheme-report-environment 06:31:26 I'm not sure whether to be happy or sad. 06:32:30 Hahahahaha. 06:32:44 mehgahbleh: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2571401 as to why I said what I said. 06:33:03 So, when I do (define op '+), what is stored in op? When I type in op at the command line, it returns +. Doesn't that mean that + is stored in it? 06:33:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 06:33:51 mehgahbleh: Type '+ in your REPL, then type in +. 06:33:53 zbigniew: i need to make table rendering easier - the columnar interface is optimized to not read the whole table, and can theoretically run on gigabytes of data lazily 06:33:54 You will see different results. 06:34:02 nebogeo [~dave@cs181215205.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 06:34:08 mehgahbleh: '+ is a symbol. + is a procedure (assuming you didn't redefine it). 06:34:12 but for common cases it's nice to have automatic width computation, and borders 06:35:12 rudybot: eval (procedure? +) 06:35:15 cky: your sandbox is ready 06:35:15 cky: ; Value: #t 06:35:19 rudybot: eval (procedure? '+) 06:35:19 cky: ; Value: #f 06:35:22 mehgahbleh: ^^ 06:35:28 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #scheme 06:35:54 Got it. 06:36:19 Is (list +) the same as '+? And can I do (list +) in the first place? 06:36:27 mehgahbleh: No. 06:36:35 mehgahbleh: (list +) is a list containing the + procedure. 06:36:53 mehgahbleh: (list '+) is (almost) the same as '(+). 06:37:05 (Almost, because the former is mutable, and the latter is not.) 06:37:45 (The former is also guaranteed to return a new list each time it is evaluated.) 06:37:51 Wait, are you telling me that '+ is a completely different thing than +? I though it built something out of the procedure plus. So '+ might as well be DogFuckingCat?! 06:37:52 chandler: That too. 06:38:06 mehgahbleh: Watch the language, please. 06:38:13 mehgahbleh: No, '+ is always the symbol "+". 06:38:15 Ah, excuse me. 06:38:29 Scheme overwhelms me. 06:38:34 rudybot: eval (eq? '+ (string->symbol "+")) 06:38:35 cky: ; Value: #t 06:38:39 mehgahbleh: ^^-- 06:38:44 There might be some animal fun in the interning table. 06:39:03 rudybot: eval (eq? + (string->symbol "+")) 06:39:03 cky: ; Value: #f 06:40:46 I'm going to tell you what I'm trying to get to here. :P I want to make a (newevaluate) procedure. (newevaluate op) should take in '+ or '/ or other stuff and apply them to things I put in the body. Like the body will contain (op 1 2). Parsing in '+ will give 3, etc 06:41:09 mehgahbleh: Then use zbigniew's alist thingy. That works. 06:41:52 PLAI covers this in... well, the beginning of it 06:41:55 You just need an alist with more elements. e.g., `((+ . ,+) (- . ,-) (* . ,*) (/ . ,/)) 06:41:57 But to do that alist thingy, I have to have a combination of every possible thing out there. A person might want to parse in his own procedure as 'dog, and that might do the average of the square of the 2 numbers. 06:42:32 mehgahbleh: If the user can define their own procedures, you need a way to store their procedure somewhere. What better place than in your symbol table? 06:42:57 I guess mehgahbleh wants to use his implementation's symbol table instead of rolling his own 06:43:13 slava: Hah. Sadly impossible, at least with R5RS. :-P 06:43:18 slava: But I understand. 06:43:28 it might be possible with his specific implementation 06:43:33 True. 06:43:36 o.o 06:44:10 mehgahbleh: The implementation's symbol table isn't usually exposed to the user program. 06:44:19 mehgahbleh: Some implementations give you special functions for accessing it, but many do not. 06:44:31 depends on how anal-retentive the implementor is 06:44:39 so I came here to ask, what are some uses for call/cc? 06:44:52 which are not covered by coroutines and non-local returns 06:45:49 slava: Read the foof-loop documentation. There's some kind of iterator thingy that uses that mechanism to allow generalised iteration, but, don't quote me on this, because it's all high magic to me. 06:46:14 generators are equivalent to coroutines though 06:46:18 you don't return from a continuation twice 06:46:36 I didn't say generators. :-) 06:46:47 Anyway, this all goes above my head. :-P 06:48:09 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 06:48:50 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:50:24 Ultimately I want my code to do something like: 06:50:24 if a procedure dog is defined as: 06:50:24 (define (dog a) (/ (+ 1 a) 2)) 06:50:25 I would want to do (NewEvaluate '(dog 3)) that does the exact same thing as (evaluate '(dog 3)) 06:50:45 So I'm writing NewEvaluate 06:52:21 mehgahbleh: See what slava has said. 06:52:58 mehgahbleh: If your implementation allows user code access to the environment, then you're in to win. 06:53:06 mehgahbleh: If not, you're in for lots of pain. 06:53:41 mehgahbleh: "eval" is usually implemented below the level of user code, at least in implementations I've seen. 06:53:41 foof: doesn't seem to work -- e.g. 06:53:43 #;3> (fmt #f (pad-char #\- (columnar (dsp "") (dsp "")))) 06:53:47 "" 06:54:00 slava, you can implement exception handling, but that's better covered by dynamic-wind 06:54:05 cky: What do you mean 'allows them access to the environment'? 06:54:07 #;9> (fmt #f (with-width 80 (pad-char #\- (columnar (dsp "foo") "+" (dsp "bar"))))) 06:54:11 "foo------------------------------------+bar\n" 06:54:19 Jafet: how does dynamic-wind help with exception handling? 06:55:32 foof: i've run into odd issues often involving the last column -- certainly in general it will -not- pad the last column except in particular circumstances, i believe it is related to the earlier bug i mentioned when only one column is displayed 06:55:56 mehgahbleh: The environment contains the implementation's symbol table (as slava calls it). 06:55:58 You can implement exception handling with it... 06:56:25 mehgahbleh: In Jafet's code snippet above, the scheme-report-environment procedure is one way to get an environment. 06:56:36 Jafet: it has the wrong semantics for that 06:56:44 mehgahbleh: But, R5RS provides no procedures for inspecting or doing anything with such environments. 06:56:47 fortunately i've developed workarounds, although my time would probably be better spent squashing the actual bug ;) 06:57:26 mehgahbleh: In the R5RS, environments are only useful for using with "eval". 06:57:43 What's R5RS? 06:57:54 mehgahbleh: R5RS is the Scheme language specification. 06:58:06 R6RS is the latest one though 06:58:12 -!- xray7224 [~xray7224@unaffiliated/xray7224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:14 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:58:14 It's "a" Scheme language specification. 06:58:20 I guess you use it in conjunction with call/cc 06:58:25 foof: ah yes, adding a decoration at the end forces the column to display padded 06:58:26 (fmt #f (with-width 80 (pad-char #\- (columnar (dsp "foo") "+" (dsp "bar") "")))) 06:58:28 mehgahbleh: chandler's answer is more neutral. :-) 06:58:36 slava: Hello there! 06:58:40 "foo------------------------------------+bar------------------------------------\n" 06:58:48 ...right, so says srfi-34. 06:58:51 *zbigniew* craps up the channel 06:58:52 chandler: know of any papers covering abstractions built with call/cc? 06:59:02 other than the obvious 06:59:12 mehgahbleh: My answer is decidedly more biased. 06:59:27 slava: Nothing off the top of my head, but then again I'm dead tired. 06:59:47 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 07:00:08 Meh, first year of college, and I barely know scheme. :P 07:00:19 mehgahbleh: It's okay. You'll pick it up sooner or later. :-P 07:00:31 and your first year after garduating from college, you'll barely ever use scheme :) 07:00:39 mehgahbleh: R6RS is a very...political issue. Some people love it, others hate it, and yet others live with it. 07:00:47 I don't have to, but I want to. :P Electrical Engineering major here. 07:01:12 So it's ok to ignore it for now? 07:01:29 mehgahbleh: Well, I wouldn't quite go that far. It depends on what implementation you're currently using. 07:01:42 mehgahbleh: Like, some implementations completely ignore R6RS, whereas others embrace it. 07:01:56 mehgahbleh: R6RS adds a module system, unicode support, and records 07:02:23 Let me try googling that. 07:02:41 mehgahbleh: Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 07:03:10 *mehgahbleh* fears. 07:05:09 slava: It adds bytevectors too, which I think are pretty neat. But, meh, I'm still not a fan of it. It has the feel of worse-is-better. 07:11:29 chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has joined #scheme 07:12:11 -!- luz [~davids@189.122.81.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:12:37 -!- haesbaert [~haesbaert@c9155a20.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:13:19 haesbaert [~haesbaert@c9155a20.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 07:15:39 cky: I'm curious, in what way? 07:15:54 do you disagree with the feature set or the way they're implemented? 07:17:15 chandler: I haven't read through the whole R6RS, so my comments aren't going to be very well-balanced. But things like using C-style character escapes is, well, a departure from Scheme. 07:18:00 that's really minor 07:18:10 and having character escapes is better than not having them 07:18:12 Ahah! 07:18:21 slava: Yes, it is, and I have to read through the document again to see what else left a sour taste in my mouth. 07:18:39 cky: Of all the things to complain about! 07:18:46 *cky* saw arcfide's no-vote on R6RS, and thought it was funny that case-sensitivity was raised as the major issue. :-) 07:18:48 (...Is scheme merely characterized by its literal syntax?) 07:19:18 chandler: There are others. I'll try to pinpoint more later. 07:19:38 chandler: But my main feeling after I first looked at it, when it was first ratified, was "meh". 07:20:04 chandler: And given that most implementations weren't touching it at the time, I didn't give it very much thought at the time. 07:20:08 I'm specifically wondering what you thought was a "worse-is-better" aspect of the design. 07:20:16 So I learned something the other day concerning Chez Scheme's optimizations and handling multiple return values. 07:20:33 chandler: But now that it's more widely adopted, I must have a look at it and see if my opinion needs reconsidering. 07:20:58 It has the feel of compromise, which is to say that it has the feel of Common Lisp, but even that is usually contrasted to the worse-is-better school of design. 07:21:27 chandler: True, I take your point that that's important to distinguish. 07:21:51 chandler: Anyway, my views are over 2 years old and I need to refresh them. :-) 07:22:10 As it turns out, the inlining of conditional procedures into a call with values producer inhibits a particular space saving efficiency optimization in Chez Scheme. 07:22:11 Once again, thank you all for your help. chandler: sorry for the language issue. 07:22:25 *mehgahbleh* throws beautiful women in the room for everyone to copulate. 07:22:27 Good night 07:22:28 -!- mehgahbleh [~mtndew@x-134-84-81-235.reshalls.umn.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:22:43 Well, there's an assumption. 07:23:09 So, for example, a procedure that grabs the greatest two numbers from a list will use more memory with the values version if the "best-of-two" procedure that handles the three element case is inlined. 07:23:37 Since this little benchmark spends most of its time allocating, this ends up meaning that a fold-left implementation with CONS will be faster. 07:24:16 On the other hand, if you inhibit that inlining, then the space usage will drop below that of the fold-left implementation, and the result is a faster multiple values implementation. 07:24:29 In my tests: 10 seconds versus 14 seconds versus 18 seconds. 07:24:37 Well, have you pointed this out to Kent? 07:24:43 14 being the fold-left. 07:24:49 chandler: He's the one who pointed it out to me. 07:24:53 Ah. 07:25:21 Very enlightening though, as this is the first time I've seen where there is such a sharp conflict of optimizations taking place here. 07:25:31 luz [~davids@189.122.81.40] has joined #scheme 07:26:26 "inhibits" by making it too obscure to the optimizer, or by explicitly causing it to not run? 07:26:54 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:27:30 Jafet: The inlining of the procedure causes conditionals to occur in the producer, which prevents the multiple values optimization. Basically, the branches are what defeat the optimization. 07:28:10 scheme implementations have traditionally had pretty weak optimizers 07:28:11 Both optimizations are still "active" in the sense that they both run, but they defaat each other. 07:28:19 I'm surprised no-one has built a scheme that targets llvm 07:28:29 The resolution I can think of is to allow moving the values return into the conditional 07:28:34 slava: Why do you think that Scheme has had weak optimizers? 07:28:39 *chandler* hits slava over the head with a copy of T, and a copy of Chez. 07:28:56 (Thus duplicating it) 07:29:22 chandler: there are mainstream optimizations that were not known when T was written 07:29:52 slava: Scheme implementations usually want precise control of the stack (for call/cc), plus ability to generate tail calls, which not many VMs provide. 07:29:54 slava: I can think of at least five Scheme implementations off the top of my head that do optimization, and I would bet all of them as being faster than most other current dynamic languages. 07:29:57 Of course. It is, after all, fairly ancient. 07:30:02 I'm not sure if llvm makes this easy or not. 07:30:11 arcfide: That doesn't say much. 07:30:12 llvm can do tail calls 07:30:17 call/cc is not very useful :) 07:30:20 ... 07:30:29 Okay, now that's just... 07:30:30 Why are you here, again? 07:30:37 slava: If you're going to troll, you've got to try harder than that. :-) 07:31:44 well, sure, llvm can't do call/cc 07:32:15 LLVM needs to sort some semantics out before it can start modelling languages that don't obviously resemble C 07:32:20 its a pretty nifty optimizer though. it has good implementations of alias analysis and common subexpression elimination 07:32:26 Redesigning the type system, for instance 07:32:26 chandler: I did hear a funny quote though, "It's not hard to beat C, it is just hard to beat C in benchmarks written for C." 07:32:41 Jafet: yeah, you'd want your scheme frontend to infer types and perform inlining and such first 07:33:02 Jafet: its not necessary to redesign anything though 07:33:05 gcc has some of the most developed optimizers I've ever used 07:33:16 problem with gcc is that the input language is C 07:33:28 llvm ir is nicer 07:33:33 Oh, dear. No, gcc is *terrible*. 07:33:43 chandler: compared to what? intel's C compiler? 07:33:47 Er, gcc compiles some or all of C, C++, Ada, Fortran and Java. 07:34:09 You can probably also hack in a direct AST input, but that doesn't sound worthwhile 07:34:14 Jafet: sure, but writing a scheme compiler that converts your program into fortran and compiles the result with gcc would be pointless 07:34:24 slava: why? 07:34:44 because you may as well emit C 07:35:10 I might choose to emit Ada. 07:35:36 Are C compilers as good optimisers of numerical computations as Fortran's? 07:35:44 these days yes 07:35:58 gcc and intel's compiler both convert C and Fortran into the same internal form anyway 07:36:37 Fortran can express multidimensional array programming much better than C, so optimizing that is easier (and might lead to better code) 07:36:51 Never used Intel's compiler, never even seen it either 07:36:58 slava: I'm slightly colored by looking at what it produces on ARM, which seems to be uniformly horrible. 07:37:02 chandler: oh, yeah 07:37:07 chandler: on non-x86, gcc sucks 07:37:13 slava: Boggle at this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/97297 07:37:52 heh 07:37:58 Well, do scheme compilers optimize well for ARM? 07:37:59 to me. x86 sucks ^^ I find RISC much more elegant (though my knowledge of x86 assembly is limited to i386) 07:38:08 Axioplase_: what RISC hardware do you use? 07:38:55 I'll take an unoptimizing compiler that doesn't do stupid shit like this to something that's too clever by half at the frontend and awful in the backend. 07:38:57 slava: I personnaly don't (unless SATURN is one, but I didn't like it), but I've written programs for mips and ARM 07:39:16 Jafet: I haven't seen one that targets ARM specifically. 07:39:31 How about generically? 07:39:32 err, TinyScheme is for ARM 07:39:35 Axioplase_: x86 compilers generally target a subset of the instruction set 07:39:41 tinyscheme is not a compiler. 07:39:49 Ah, compiler, my bad. 07:39:49 Axioplase_: all the old crap (string instructions, binary coded decimal, looping, etc) is microcoded and slow in modern CPUs, and never used 07:41:01 *chandler* is typing on RISC hardware at this moment. 07:41:08 chandler: your old G5? :-) 07:41:15 tinyscheme is supposed to be portable C, although I have no idea how much that is true 07:41:32 Unfortunately, said hardware is behind an interpretive VM with the world's worst garbage collector. 07:41:48 slava: No, an Android phone (G1). 07:42:11 If I remember correctly, the initial version of Gambit compiled to some "exotic" hardware (like multiprocessor boards) 07:42:16 chandler: the nexus one is pretty neat 07:43:32 I don't doubt it. How much neater would it be if Google's engineers had actually aimed for the state of the art circa 2000 when designing Dalvik? 07:44:11 I'm sure they'll have a JIT eventually 07:45:04 Yeah, yeah. I get annoyed at the profligate waste of cycles - and user time, as a consequence of such. 07:45:56 Anyway, it's past my bedtime. 07:53:10 wingo [~wingo@81.38.178.85] has joined #scheme 07:53:19 hola wingo 07:54:45 heya foof 07:56:40 madmuppet006 [~madmuppet@202-74-221-122.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 08:00:03 -!- madmuppet006 [~madmuppet@202-74-221-122.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 08:02:00 -!- wingo [~wingo@81.38.178.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:11:48 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:16:36 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:22:23 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:22:48 foof: quick and dirty patch for (wrap-lines whitespace) at http://3e8.org/pub/fmt-wrap.diff.txt -- wrap-fold-words could not handle a null SEQ 08:28:03 zbigniew: thanks, will check it this evening 08:28:33 -!- slava [~slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has left #scheme 08:29:28 r2q2 [~user@acm-linux.cs-icl.uic.edu] has joined #scheme 08:30:21 How is everyone? 08:34:21 zbigniew: ironically i've been using C++'s IO manipulators a lot lately, which are kinda like fmt except they suck :) 08:37:01 yes. yes they do 08:38:19 i am quite enjoying fmt myself 08:38:51 additionally i upgraded the chicken egg to 0.7 recently 08:39:00 I quite like Boost.Format. They make iostreams formatting much more sane. 08:40:02 e.g., cout << format("Hello, %s! The meaning of life is %d.\n") % "world" % 42; 08:40:29 It may not be as cool as fmt, but in the C++ world, still keeps things saner than using manipulators directly. :-P 08:40:30 oh, look, python! 08:40:37 Yep! 08:42:19 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:44:46 the c++ standards committee read about formatting "templates" and took it entirely the wrong way 08:45:30 incubot: somehow that was funnier in my head 08:45:34 well it works for this particular instance where y is a single symbol , but if it were a list then i'd get an awkward list outcome ("non flat")... i just need to call the evaluator somehow with out the outcome being what y points to but it's value 08:46:19 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:46:44 minion: chant 08:46:44 MORE SANE 08:46:48 good bot. 08:50:13 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:50:54 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 08:52:44 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 09:00:16 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:00:23 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 09:11:19 -!- r2q2 [~user@acm-linux.cs-icl.uic.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:30 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 09:27:40 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 09:38:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:47:07 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #scheme 09:55:47 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 09:57:29 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-186-239-198.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.8 -- Are we there yet?] 09:59:56 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:01:53 masm [~masm@bl8-57-228.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:04:26 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 10:05:20 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:05:54 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:37 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 10:11:19 jmcphers_ [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 10:11:23 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:13 -!- PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f050153212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:15:02 PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f050150157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:17:43 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-30-82-253-166-30.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:18:22 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@129-97-208-195.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:24:27 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:40:23 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-57-82-249-37-165.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 10:42:18 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 10:50:37 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 10:50:52 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:15 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 10:51:22 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:51:53 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 10:53:22 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 10:56:16 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:07:08 thuge [~thats@unaffiliated/thuge] has joined #scheme 11:07:14 -!- thuge [~thats@unaffiliated/thuge] has left #scheme 11:09:48 -!- jao [~jao@83.43.35.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:20:33 xwl [~user@123.115.96.92] has joined #scheme 11:21:05 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:22:02 Anyone familiar with "canonical s-expressions"? 11:22:59 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 11:30:12 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-28.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:34:31 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 11:49:57 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:53:54 x2cast [~alvaro@247.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 11:54:12 jao [~jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:55:03 -!- saccade_ [~saccade_@2002:125d:34f:4:214:51ff:fe25:d8c4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:55:36 saccade_ [~saccade_@2002:125d:34f:4:214:51ff:fe25:d8c4] has joined #scheme 11:55:47 -!- IJP [~Ian@host86-174-203-114.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:12:43 "ubuntu is love" 12:14:44 erm, that was more like "canonical s-statement"; how about "ubuntu loves you"? 12:14:54 incubot: ubuntu much lately? 12:14:56 Lately I'm finding that programming is not very fun, maybe because what I try to do, is a bit too difficult. 12:21:14 incubot: why don't you go shopping? 12:21:17 not like shopping in malls 12:31:16 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:31:16 -!- x2cast [~alvaro@247.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:38 eli: i know what they are - haven't used them myself, but was debating adding support for them to my sexp lib 12:33:41 x2cast [~alvaro@247.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:40:59 *haptiK* slaps foof around a bit with a large trout 12:41:42 *haptiK* slaps bgs000 around a bit with a large trout 12:43:19 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 12:46:31 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@c-98-231-201-176.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:51:18 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 12:55:53 -!- foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:55:59 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 13:03:25 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 13:28:55 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:27 schmir` [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 13:30:58 Leonidas annotated #97702 "full commented r6rs version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97702#5 13:31:18 -!- schmir` [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:31 seamus-android [~alistair@host86-182-199-98.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 13:33:37 schmir` [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 13:34:25 -!- schmir` [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:14 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 13:39:18 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 13:40:38 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:44:48 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:57:40 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 14:01:19 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 14:04:40 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 14:13:56 -!- luz [~davids@189.122.81.40] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 14:14:19 -!- nebogeo [~dave@cs181215205.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:39:17 eli, it seems unlikely that such encodings would win over simple compression applied to real s-exps 14:43:30 -!- x2cast [~alvaro@247.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:47:18 *rudybot* unloads a shipping container full of flounder onto haptiK 14:47:29 rudybot scares me 14:48:10 *Daemmerung* didn't realize that rudybot was union 14:51:02 samth: it's easier on the GC 14:54:55 I wonder why csexps don't go all the way and prefix list-begins with element counts, like they do verbatim strings/atoms? 14:56:08 also, do csexps allow any atoms other than bytestrings? 14:59:46 sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:05:41 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.96.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:06:00 xray7224 [~xray7224@unaffiliated/xray7224] has joined #scheme 15:07:57 *rudybot* apprentices samth as a longshoreman 15:10:25 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:44 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:23 foof, samth: I was just wondering how known they are -- there's a suggestion to add "S-expression structured output" to git; and I had to read through the code to learn that it's these cononical things, not sexprs in any usual sense (for my definition of "usual"). 15:17:19 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.35] has quit [Quit: off] 15:23:51 anyone knows whan happened with aziz and ikarus? azis hasn't wrote an email since ages and ikarus is awaiting a 0.0.4 release even longer. 15:26:43 :-( 15:27:20 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34:13 x2cast [~alvaro@247.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 15:34:55 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:48 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:38 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.170.89.93] has joined #scheme 15:53:30 roderic [~roderic@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:55:28 I would usually blame the lamentable tragedie of the Day Job - but he does seem to have fallen off the face of the (indexed) Earth. There is some activity in the ikarus repository, but I don't know if it's his. 15:56:28 fabe [~fabe@p54A7D9E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:00:19 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:03:36 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:08:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:09:05 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:20 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:27:17 dzhus [~sphinx@95-27-218-81.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 16:34:00 phao [~phao@189.107.182.240] has joined #scheme 16:34:30 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 16:50:39 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@95-27-218-81.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:34 jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:58:10 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 16:58:46 saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-82-114.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 16:59:59 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:31 jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:05:25 apertu [~alper@host-194-88-211-36.snto-msu.net] has joined #scheme 17:05:53 rntz [~rntz@ASPHODEL.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:05:56 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 17:07:34 -!- apertu [~alper@host-194-88-211-36.snto-msu.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:07:44 apertu [~alper@host-194-88-211-36.snto-msu.net] has joined #scheme 17:07:44 -!- apertu [~alper@host-194-88-211-36.snto-msu.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:57 is there a plt-scheme-specific help channel, or should I just ask here? 17:10:39 I think this is the plt-scheme-specific help channel 17:10:58 hm. odd name, then. 17:11:31 anyway, is there a simple way to force re-loading of a collection? 17:11:39 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:12:04 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 17:12:16 I'm a PLT users, but I don't know what either "re-loading" or "collection" means. 17:13:06 re-loading, as in, to re-run the code associated with; collection, as in http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/collects.html 17:13:54 *Daemmerung* gives a blank look 17:14:03 No idea, sorry. 17:14:49 Maybe you should offer a usage scenario. 17:15:37 (That notion of "collection" is completely new to me. And I fancied that I knew PLT.) 17:18:36 I may actually mean "library" rather than "collection" here; I'm fairly new to this. 17:18:43 Anyway, I have a file chao/main.ss in a directory contained in (current-library-collection-paths), 17:18:53 and while (require chao/main) will load and instantiate it just fine, if I change the file, (require chao/main) won't reload it. 17:19:33 Do you mean interactively? From the REPL? 17:19:40 yes. 17:19:45 You can't. 17:20:20 ... why? 17:21:05 "require" isn't "load," is why. "Require" isn't an interactive facility. 17:21:17 You're building a DAG. 17:21:35 You might try using DrScheme as a better REPL. 17:21:46 (You don't have to use it as an editor. I don't.) 17:22:02 I am assuming that you are using mZscheme.... 17:23:13 If you use drscheme, type your various require clauses in the top pane, and re Run the bottom pane, drscheme /will/ recompile everything. 17:23:52 If you use mzscheme, mzscheme assumes that later requires in the same session are redundant. compiled already. 17:24:26 interesting. but clearly drscheme has some mechanism of informing the underlying plt scheme that it should recompile, so clearly there is a way to reload libraries. 17:25:00 sure. kill mzscheme and restart. 17:25:36 you're assuming that drscheme is-a mzscheme. 17:25:52 drscheme has-a mzscheme is more accurate. (not that either is accurate.) 17:25:54 funkenblatt [~user@adsl-69-238-246-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:26:45 From mzscheme, try using enter! instead of require. Might do what you WANT. 17:26:57 please excuse my problems with the fscking shift key 17:27:03 metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:29:14 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/enter.html?q=enter%21#(form._((lib._scheme/enter..ss)._enter!)) 17:29:55 ah, enter! did do what I wanted, thanks. 17:30:06 whew 17:31:24 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-92.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:33:56 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-28.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:35:22 r5rs call-with-values 17:35:23 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_574 17:35:23 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5pbxgd 17:43:52 nebogeo [~dave@cs78174123.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 17:44:58 rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 17:48:55 rntz: the plt specific help channel is the plt mailing list. Though there is a number of PLT users/developers here. 17:49:28 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 17:55:11 cat_ [~cat@89-179-111-141.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 17:55:48 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-236-231-67.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:55:59 Mikaeel_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@129-97-208-195.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 17:56:03 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:56:12 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:57:40 Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has joined #scheme 18:01:56 copumpkin [~copumpkin@dhcp-212-228.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 18:04:42 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@dhcp-212-228.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:06:03 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:11:23 Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 18:11:56 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:20:08 -!- seamus-android [~alistair@host86-182-199-98.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:22:01 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 18:22:39 rntz, drscheme basically takes the 'start a new instance of mzscheme' approach 18:25:43 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:09 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-92.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:17 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-236-231-67.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:27:29 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-92.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 18:28:27 seamus-android [~alistair@host86-183-193-143.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:30:56 -!- nebogeo [~dave@cs78174123.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:33:18 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:57:51 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@c-67-186-56-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:02:29 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:04:27 IJP [~Ian@host86-173-116-174.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:07:36 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@c-67-186-56-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:08:48 MetaEntity [~56499fa8@gateway/web/freenode/x-pweyvqlpbfscsrnh] has joined #scheme 19:08:50 hi 19:10:06 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.170.89.93] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci_] 19:10:34   #scheme  elly!~elly@unaffiliated/elly  Thu Feb 4 04:11:58 2010 19:10:34 * JoelMcCracken (~joelmccra@pool-96-236-231-67.pitbpa.east.verizon.net)    #scheme 19:10:34 * Mikaeel_Mohamed (~Mohamdu@129-97-208-195.uwaterloo.ca)    #scheme 19:10:34 * sladegen  (Disconnected by services) 19:10:34 * sladegen (~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen)    #scheme 19:10:35 * Belaf (~campedel@194.209.131.192)    #scheme 19:10:39 * copumpkin (~copumpkin@dhcp-212-228.cs.dartmouth.edu)    #scheme 19:10:41 * copumpkin  (Client Quit) 19:10:43 * bipt  (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 19:10:45 * Fabse (~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field)    #scheme 19:10:47 * MichaelRaskin (~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225)    #scheme 19:10:49 * seamus-android  (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 19:10:51 * attila_lendvai (~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu)    #scheme 19:10:53 rntz, drscheme basically takes the 'start a new instance of mzscheme' approach 19:10:55 * kar8nga  (Remote host closed the connection) 19:10:57 * RageOfThou  (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:10:59 * JoelMcCracken  (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 19:11:01 * MrFahrenheit (~RageOfTho@users-55-92.vinet.ba)    #scheme 19:11:03 * seamus-android (~alistair@host86-183-193-143.range86-183.btcentralplus.com)    #scheme 19:11:08 * nebogeo  (Quit: Leaving) 19:11:10 * saint_cypher (~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)    #scheme 19:11:12 * JoelMcCracken (~joelmccra@c-67-186-56-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)    #scheme 19:11:14 * REPLeffect  (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 19:11:16 * IJP (~Ian@host86-173-116-174.range86-173.btcentralplus.com)    #scheme 19:11:18 * JoelMcCracken  (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 19:11:20 * MetaEntity (~56499fa8@gateway/web/freenode/x-pweyvqlpbfscsrnh)    #scheme 19:11:22 hi 19:11:24 * alexsuraci_  (Quit: alexsuraci_) 19:11:28 Cool, a low-baud delay line cat. 19:11:29 concatenation bot? 19:13:38 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:14:13 Jafet> Cool, a low-baud delay line cat. 19:14:15 concatenation bot? 19:14:35 paste cat is watching you  19:14:49 can someone kickban cat_ please? 19:14:58 It looks fun 19:15:05 incubot, what do you think of repetitive bots? 19:15:08 Most repetitive tasks can be simplified using procedures :-] 19:15:24 Sage. 19:15:25 -!- Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has left #scheme 19:15:28 Procedures! Why didn't I think of that?? 19:15:29 sam you feeling ok? 19:15:37 well, '' is a verb, FWIW 19:16:39 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 19:19:14 cat_> * Fabse (~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field)    #scheme 19:19:16 * MichaelRaskin (~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225)    #scheme 19:19:18 * seamus-android  (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 19:19:20 * attila_lendvai (~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu)    #scheme 19:19:22 rntz, drscheme basically takes the 'start a new instance of mzscheme' approach 19:19:24 * kar8nga  (Remote host closed the connection) 19:19:26 * RageOfThou  (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:19:28 * JoelMcCracken  (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 19:19:30 * MrFahrenheit (~RageOfTho@users-55-92.vinet.ba)    #scheme 19:19:32 * seamus-android (~alistair@host86-183-193-143.range86-183.btcentralplus.com)    #scheme 19:19:35 * nebogeo  (Quit: Leaving) 19:19:39 * saint_cypher (~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)    #scheme 19:19:39 elly, chandler, kencausey: ping 19:19:42 * JoelMcCracken (~joelmccra@c-67-186-56-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)    #scheme 19:19:44 * REPLeffect  (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 19:19:46 * IJP (~Ian@host86-173-116-174.range86-173.btcentralplus.com)    #scheme 19:19:48 * JoelMcCracken  (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 19:19:49 Hm, not seen this one before. 19:19:50 * MetaEntity (~56499fa8@gateway/web/freenode/x-pweyvqlpbfscsrnh)    #scheme 19:19:52 hi 19:19:54 * alexsuraci_  (Quit: alexsuraci_) 19:19:56 Cool, a low-baud delay line cat. 19:19:58 concatenation bot? 19:20:00 Jafet> Cool, a low-baud delay line cat. 19:20:02 concatenation bot? 19:20:04 * Poeir  (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 19:20:06 paste cat is watching you  19:20:10 can someone kickban cat_ please? 19:20:12 It looks fun 19:20:12 ? 19:20:14 incubot, what do you think of repetitive bots? 19:20:16 Most repetitive tasks can be simplified using procedures :-] 19:20:18 Sage. 19:20:20 * Belaf (~campedel@194.209.131.192)  #scheme 19:20:22 Procedures! Why didn't I think of that?? 19:20:22 /quit 19:20:24 sam you feeling ok? 19:20:26 well, '' is a verb, FWIW 19:20:28 * REPLeffect (~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254)    #scheme 19:20:36 (kill 'cat_) 19:21:01 MetaEntity: try /ignore 19:21:13 (error "Permission denied:" 'kill) 19:21:20 ^^ 19:22:07 (kill (call/cc (lamda (c) (c 'cat))) 19:22:41 lly, chandler, kencausey: ping 19:22:43 Hm, not seen this one before. 19:23:16    ##4e 19:23:18 *   ##4e is: D&D ##4e | http://wizards.com/dnd/downloads/dragon/386/386_CA_Druid.pdf Bitchin' new Predator at-will, 1/enc Nature for Arcana/Dungeoneering/Religion, lv 25 power that summons six creatures with instinctives | "You're lawful good!" "I'm lawful don't-give-me-that-fucking-tea-party-shit!" 19:23:22 *   ##4e  Nacht!~KamikazeL@c-76-102-34-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net  Tue Apr 13 22:26:12 2010 19:23:25 I would totally hump palin's daughter 19:23:27 I mean, McCain's. Sorry, my bad 19:23:29 rNate> I would totally hump palin's daughter 19:23:31 I mean, McCain's. Sorry, my bad 19:23:33 and that was the wrong chanel to type that in. sorry 19:23:35 just ignore my like the idiot I am 19:23:39 rNate> and that was the wrong chanel to type that in. sorry 19:23:41 just ignore my like the idiot I am 19:23:43 * Imperii    Imp|Away 19:23:45 going to be busy playing borderlands. 19:23:53 wow, this just got way more bizzare 19:23:58 ichaelRaskin> /quit 19:24:00 (kill 'cat_) 19:24:02 This cat driving me insane! 19:24:36 _> sam you feeling ok? 19:24:40 well, '' is a verb, FWIW 19:24:42 * REPLeffect (~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254)    #scheme 19:24:43 elly, chandler, kencausey: ping 19:24:45 Hm, not seen this one before. 19:24:47 lly, chandler, kencausey: ping 19:24:49 Hm, not seen this one before. 19:24:51 ? 19:24:53    ##4e 19:24:55 *   ##4e is: D&D ##4e | http://wizards.com/dnd/downloads/dragon/386/386_CA_Druid.pdf Bitchin' new Predator at-will, 1/enc Nature for Arcana/Dungeoneering/Religion, lv 25 power that summons six creatures with instinctives | "You're lawful good!" "I'm lawful don't-give-me-that-fucking-tea-party-shit!" 19:24:59 *   ##4e  Nacht!~KamikazeL@c-76-102-34-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net  Tue Apr 13 22:26:12 2010 19:25:00 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 19:25:02 I would totally hump palin's daughter 19:25:06 I mean, McCain's. Sorry, my bad 19:25:08 rNate> I would totally hump palin's daughter 19:25:11 I mean, McCain's. Sorry, my bad 19:25:13 and that was the wrong chanel to type that in. sorry 19:25:14 what the heck? 19:25:14 just ignore my like the idiot I am 19:25:16 rNate> and that was the wrong chanel to type that in. sorry 19:25:18 just ignore my like the idiot I am 19:25:20 Now it's degenerating into incoherency. 19:25:20 * Imperii    Imp|Away 19:25:22 going to be busy playing borderlands. 19:25:24 /quit 19:25:26 (kill 'cat_) 19:25:29 ichaelRaskin> /quit 19:25:31 (kill 'cat_) 19:25:33 MetaEntity: try /ignore 19:25:35 (error "Permission denied:" 'kill) 19:25:45 Perhaps it's mimicking this channel. 19:25:45 who are the ops in this channel? 19:26:01 *Leonidas* checks 19:26:05 -!- x2cast [~alvaro@247.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:26:17 -!- MetaEntity [~56499fa8@gateway/web/freenode/x-pweyvqlpbfscsrnh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:26:47 A deconstruction of IRC would be interesting to watch-participate 19:27:04 samth: foof, eli, chandler, Elly... 19:27:15 Ah, I phorgot f00f. 19:27:50 IIRC, samth has a walk-down-the-hall ping option for eli. 19:28:44 sneakerping 19:28:45 Daemmerung: my thinking :) 19:28:58 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o eli 19:28:59 kill (call/cc (lamda (c) (c 'cat))) 19:29:01 wow, this just got way more bizzare 19:29:01 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o eli 19:29:03 This cat driving me insane! 19:29:06 at_> lly, chandler, kencausey: ping 19:29:09 Hm, not seen this one before. 19:29:11 ? 19:29:13    ##4e 19:29:13 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:29:15 *   ##4e is: D&D ##4e | http://wizards.com/dnd/downloads/dragon/386/386_CA_Druid.pdf Bitchin' new Predator at-will, 1/enc Nature for Arcana/Dungeoneering/Religion, lv 25 power that summons six creatures with instinctives | "You're lawful good!" "I'm lawful don't-give-me-that-fucking-tea-party-shit!" 19:29:19 *   ##4e  Nacht!~KamikazeL@c-76-102-34-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net  Tue Apr 13 22:26:12 2010 19:29:22 I would totally hump palin's daughter 19:29:24 I mean, McCain's. Sorry, my bad 19:29:26 rNate> I would totally hump palin's daughter 19:29:28 I mean, McCain's. Sorry, my bad 19:29:30 and that was the wrong chanel to type that in. sorry 19:29:32 just ignore my like the idiot I am 19:29:34 rNate> and that was the wrong chanel to type that in. sorry 19:29:36 just ignore my like the idiot I am 19:29:40 * Imperii    Imp|Away 19:29:42 going to be busy playing borderlands. 19:29:43 I was just about to say that I can't wait for teebot. 19:29:44 /quit 19:29:44 eli: please silence cat_ 19:29:46 (kill 'cat_) 19:29:48 ichaelRaskin> /quit 19:29:50 (kill 'cat_) 19:29:52 MetaEntity: try /ignore 19:29:54 (error "Permission denied:" 'kill) 19:29:56 (kill (call/cc (lamda (c) (c 'cat))) 19:29:58 wow, this just got way more bizzare 19:30:00 This cat driving me insane! 19:30:02 kill (call/cc (lamda (c) (c 'cat))) 19:30:04 wow, this just got way more bizzare 19:30:06 This cat driving me insane! 19:30:22 wow, it starts getting meta 19:30:28 This is a good lesson in recursive calls 19:30:40 Does anyone know how to kick people? 19:30:52 Seems more like longjmp. 19:30:54 eli: a silence ban should be enough 19:30:57 /kick #scheme cat_ 19:31:06 eli: in ERC there's a /kick 19:31:17 -!- cat_ [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has been kicked from #scheme by eli (#scheme) 19:31:48 "... and so the experiment of the Metacorder came to an end." 19:32:14 what the hell was that? 19:32:23 A cat! 19:32:26 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 19:32:28 A stack overflow in slow motion 19:32:30 chandler: Me struggling to find a way to kick someone. 19:32:38 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o eli 19:32:50 -!- chandler has set mode +b cat*!*cat@89-179-111-*.broadband.corbina.ru 19:32:51 sneakerping for the win! 19:32:51 Thus perish all who challenge the fundamental laws of our society. 19:33:49 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 19:34:06 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 19:34:17 eli: Have you got it written down somewhere now? 19:35:00 chandler: No, I did a bunch of them, and not sure which one it is. If you give me an exact recipe I'll write it. 19:35:27 there is also a /help command in most IRC clients 19:35:43 kickme [~n@new.unmutual.info] has joined #scheme 19:35:54 Hey, eli! I bet you can't kick me! 19:36:00 eli: OK. Try /kick kickme 19:36:01 rcfox: lol 19:36:06 Let's just bring a dog to this channel. Problem solved. 19:36:12 fschwidom [~fschwidom@p5B26AEC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:36:14 kickme: Target practice 19:36:17 is this a kicking tutorial? 19:36:19 dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria 19:36:23 *Leonidas* kicks his table 19:36:24 Neener neener. 19:36:31 *Daemmerung* kicks the baby 19:36:33 eli: Oh, you'll need to be +o first as well. 19:36:46 Leonidas: all good video games come with a tutorial now, no one reads the manual anymore 19:37:10 :) 19:37:14 *Daemmerung* gives eli his first quest 19:37:16 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o eli 19:37:23 -!- kickme [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has been kicked from #scheme by eli (kickme) 19:37:24 "You must kickban twenty rats for me." 19:37:34 Did that do it? 19:37:34 eli: Very good. Now let's see if your client can do a kickban. 19:37:35 Kicketh the user kickme! 19:37:39 kickme [~n@new.unmutual.info] has joined #scheme 19:37:46 eli: Try /kickban kickme 19:38:00 No, that's some foo-irc-ism. 19:38:08 (And the thing that I was looking for.) 19:38:15 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:38:20 "*** ?421 kickban Unknown command" 19:38:47 plus, the irc that freenode uses is nonstandard. 19:38:51 chandler` [~user@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #scheme 19:39:28 Daemmerung: Want to hear this explanation again? 19:39:45 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o eli 19:39:55 eli: A quick Google for erc kickban brings up this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/97466 19:40:01 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:40:07 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 19:41:01 chandler: Yeah, I'll need to do it explicitly -- I'm using rcirc which doesn't have any mention of ban in the source. 19:41:05 Weirdly, ERC contains an unban, but not a ban. 19:41:06 Checkie [11682@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 19:41:18 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler` 19:41:22 -!- chandler` has set mode +b *!nil@nil 19:41:22 -!- kickme [~user@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has been kicked from #scheme by chandler` (Kicked) 19:41:30 Oof. That didn't really work. 19:41:33 Maybe that's for unary ban. 19:41:48 -!- chandler` has set mode -b *!nil@nil 19:41:53 eli: To ban, the command is /mode #scheme +b nick!user@host 19:42:03 Where nick, user, and host can contain globs. 19:42:25 kickme [~n@new.unmutual.info] has joined #scheme 19:43:10 eli: (Sophisticated clients have /ban and /kickban commands, like chandler says, but the /mode +b is the "first-principles" method.) 19:43:30 -!- chandler` has set mode +b *!~n@new.unmutual.info 19:43:37 -!- chandler` has set mode -b *!nil@nil 19:43:45 Sorry, I'm still figuring out ERC. 19:43:53 -!- chandler` has set mode -b *!~n@new.unmutual.info 19:44:01 chandler`: That's ok, I'll just do it manually. 19:44:06 -!- chandler` has set mode +b *!~n@new.unmutual.info 19:44:06 -!- kickme [~user@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has been kicked from #scheme by chandler` (Kicked) 19:44:13 Hm. It worked the second time. 19:44:50 Oh. I think it's because kickme was already here before I joined with this client, and rather than using whois it's just getting it from cached information via JOIN messages (which it never got). 19:45:20 chandler`: When you join a channel, a /names is automatically sent (kinda), so it should get info that way too. 19:45:32 oh, that is crappy behavior 19:45:36 Oh wait, /names doesn't have hostmasks. 19:46:32 *cky* confused /names with /who. 19:49:24 Still. "nil" is the best hostname ever. :-P 19:49:50 For one of my own domain names, the host names are nil, t, and car. (cdr to come when there's a fourth one. :-P) 19:50:24 car, cadr, caddr, cadddr, ... 19:50:45 Though that might be hard to keep straight after a while. 19:50:45 metasyntax`: Now there's an idea. :-) 19:51:47 tune your dhcp to hand out correct values of ca(d*)r. 19:53:11 Daemmerung: Identifying which machine to ssh to could still pose a mental issue. :-D 19:53:39 After a while, it's no better than just referring to the machines by IP addresses directly. :-P 19:53:46 cky: consider it cross-training for reading code that does the same 19:53:53 Hahahahaha. 19:54:06 "oh! caddaddaddddaaadddddr of fnord! right, duh" 19:54:14 Hehehehehe. 19:59:31 -!- jao [~jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:03:52 chittoor [~rajesh@115.117.200.165] has joined #scheme 20:04:21 -!- chittoor [~rajesh@115.117.200.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:32 chittoor [~rajesh@115.117.200.165] has joined #scheme 20:06:50 -!- chandler` [~user@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:07:54 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-123-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:13 johnnowak [~johnnowak@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 20:09:01 -!- johnnowak [~johnnowak@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:06 johnnowak [~johnnowak@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 20:09:08 -!- johnnowak [~johnnowak@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:23 johnnowak [~johnnowak@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 20:10:02 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-123-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:24:59 marcob [~marco@host193-5-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 20:25:00 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:25:19 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 20:35:55 -!- johnnowak [~johnnowak@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: johnnowak] 20:47:40 schmir [~schmir@p54A9248B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:56:36 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Quit: my favourite color is blue......NO, YELLOWWWWWWWWW] 21:02:37 HG` [~HG@85.8.75.189] has joined #scheme 21:03:18 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:03:56 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:17:49 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.75.189] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:29:21 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:29:56 -!- fschwidom [~fschwidom@p5B26AEC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:38:37 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 21:52:23 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:01:44 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:06:59 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:10:24 TR2N [email@89-180-176-24.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 22:18:33 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A9248B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:53 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-82-114.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:28:50 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 22:29:57 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:06 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 22:39:59 MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:40:54 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 22:43:47 Sabaki [~56499fa8@gateway/web/freenode/x-sjvycwdchqykswyw] has joined #scheme 22:43:52 hello 22:44:40 I am looking for a r6rs scheme implementation compiling to native x86 on windows without use of tools like cygwin (Ikarus) 22:45:08 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 22:50:09 plt-racket? 22:51:12 larceny will do it 22:51:26 well i dunno... it compiles to binary, but it's only jited, i think. 22:56:37 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:53 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-236-231-67.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:58:11 AOT is overrated. 22:59:15 (Okay, not overrated if you're trying to squeeze your program to conform to iPhone development guidelines, but, x86 is not iPhone development, so. :-P) 23:02:30 well it's nice to be able to distribute standalone executables too 23:03:01 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7D9E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:41 thanks but I already tried larceny 23:08:24 do you need something that creates standalone executables? 23:08:29 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 23:11:00 -!- Sabaki [~56499fa8@gateway/web/freenode/x-sjvycwdchqykswyw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:11:48 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-123-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:12:51 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:12:56 copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:17:10 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-162-12-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 23:18:32 cky: iPhone development guidelines now ban the use of Scheme no matter how you compile it. 23:18:51 chandler: Yes, I know. :-) I even wrote a snarky tweet about it. :-P 23:18:54 cydia ftw ;) 23:19:24 not having to use a (illegal) hack to run what I want on my own phone ftw 23:19:34 it's not illegal 23:19:39 Indeed. 23:19:41 Sure it is. 23:19:44 where? 23:19:51 (@ chandler's comment about using an open phone platform.) 23:19:54 In the US. Laws of your country may vary. 23:20:04 chandler: can you point at what law makes it illegal? 23:20:08 The DMCA. 23:20:13 http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/02/apple-says-jailbreaking-illegal 23:20:32 the DMCA explicitly has a provision in it to allow unlocking of carrier-locked devices, and jailbreaking is a necessary step to that 23:20:39 also, apple would say that 23:20:44 there's plenty of writing out there that says it isn't 23:20:56 Jailbreaking also allows you to "circumvent" the totally worthless DRM. 23:21:08 yeah, but if they had any legs to stand on they'd have sued me long ago 23:21:13 legally 23:21:18 My (deliberately snarky) comments about the new rules: http://twitter.com/cky944/status/11865491063 http://twitter.com/cky944/status/11877869192 :-P 23:21:21 they're trying to make it actually illegal but it isn't currently 23:21:38 ate2muchuranium [~root@189.107.132.204] has joined #scheme 23:21:38 Well, that depends on who you believe. Apple would probably rather just FUD about it than actually sue people. 23:21:55 well, considering I'm one of the main "facilitators" out there and I don't hide my identity 23:21:59 Regardless, jailbreaking is a pain no matter how you look at it. It's a game of cat and mouse with a perfectly good solution: don't buy hardware afflicted with such rules. 23:22:38 I agree, it shouldn't be necessary 23:23:03 but most people "in the know" don't think it's illegal unless they work for apple and have an interest in it actually being illegal 23:23:14 "no matter how you compile it" isn't quite right 23:23:27 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 23:23:34 In what know? I don't trust the courts to rule sensibly about this. 23:24:34 funkenblatt: Hm? The new rules say that applications must be "originally written" in C, C++, Objective-C, or JavaScript. 23:24:35 people with legal and practical knowledge of the issued involved 23:24:49 yeah, the new language rules are pretty hard to misunderstand :/ 23:25:10 almost impossible for them to enforce in theory, but in practice probably not too hard 23:25:30 well i suppose that hinges on what "originally written" really means 23:25:49 It means that if Apple doesn't like you, your app won't be published on the app store. 23:25:49 what could it mean? 23:25:56 that was already true though :) 23:26:16 they'd just cite another nebulous rule in the developer agreement before 23:26:27 Right. So, not much of a change in practice. The big publishers will still ignore the rule. 23:27:05 and little players will probably still be able to get away with it 23:27:17 but if you get attention they'll probably be more picky 23:28:28 Basically, don't use Flash. Everyone else can carry on. 23:28:39 or monotouch or whatever it was they called it 23:28:47 did you read the gruber blog post on it? 23:28:50 I'm not even sure that they'll crack down on this one. 23:29:11 http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/why_apple_changed_section_331 seemed like the most reasonable explanation of their rationale 23:29:12 Yes, if only to see how much he was going to contort his reasoning to defend this. As usual, it made little sense. 23:29:30 I thought it did make sense, although I don't agree with them deciding to do it (obviously) 23:29:47 Keep in mind, MonoTouch developers are still using Apple's APIs, not cross-platform compatibility APIs. 23:31:09 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-92.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:31:25 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-92.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:34:17 -!- cpr420 [~cpr420@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:35:04 cpr420 [~cpr420@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 23:43:37 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 23:45:29 copumpkin: take into account Gruber would find a 'perfectly reasonable' rationale if Apple made all their non-customers start wearing 'flair' with little yellow stars on their clothing. 23:45:41 :) 23:45:43 :P 23:45:44 he isn't that bad 23:45:47 but yeah 23:46:15 yeah, that specific comparison is hyperbole, but basically Apple can do no real wrong to him 23:46:19 -!- cpr420 [~cpr420@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Vision[0.9.7-H-090423]: i've been blurred!] 23:46:38 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:47:06 so he'll state when Apple is obviously screwing up, then come up with an extended rationale or justification for it 23:47:14 yeah 23:56:25 heyhey [~501eb9ed@gateway/web/freenode/x-xidmvnfzhukemltx] has joined #scheme 23:59:05 i still think apple would be hard-pressed to say you didn't "originally" write something in C if you wrote a scheme interpreter in C, and then included a scheme program as a C string literal