00:01:08 If I have 4.012345, how can I round that to two decimals? 00:01:15 ie. 4.01 00:01:24 truncate simply drops the decimal, I think 00:01:46 seangrove: is this for printing? 00:02:01 seangrove: Normally, you would only do such rounding when you are printing. 00:02:20 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:02:24 seangrove: I think that there might be a way to control the precision some other way, but I'm not sure there. I know you can control the precision of literals. 00:02:34 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.224.220] has left #scheme 00:02:42 choas_ [~lars@p5B0DB124.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 00:02:47 No, it's for testing 00:03:28 I'm having problems, because I have a list (-1.07693786454356e-08, 0.0, 0.0) doesn't equal (0.0 0.0 0.0) 00:03:34 Anyways, if you just want this for printing, I use FORMAT specs. (FORMAT "~,2F" 4.012345) => "4.01". 00:03:44 Andrej11 [~Andrej@BSN-61-31-250.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #scheme 00:05:52 -!- masm [~masm@bl10-244-139.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:06:05 -!- choas [~lars@p5B0DEA14.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:07:54 -!- Andrej [~Andrej@BSN-61-22-130.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:13:49 seangrove: I'd write an "almost-equal?" function, and use that in the test 00:14:36 MetaEntity [~56499fa8@gateway/web/freenode/x-rompqbqxwwshfygc] has joined #scheme 00:14:41 hello everyone 00:15:09 Is there a way to define something conditionally in scheme (outside a let form) 00:15:24 (if .... (define ... 00:15:32 ? 00:17:18 -!- choas_ [~lars@p5B0DB124.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:17:25 sure, but something tells me I don't really understand your question 00:17:42 why would you want to conditionally define something? 00:17:48 Then later you'd have to conditionally reference it 00:18:11 (if dry-run-mode (define (print-statistics))) 00:18:12 ... 00:18:20 (if dry-run-mode (print-statistics)) 00:18:27 might's well just define print-statistics all the time 00:18:44 the thing is that I created a generic method lib 00:18:58 and I want to wrap (generic-call in a lambda 00:19:15 in order to call (function args ...( 00:19:18 *) 00:19:37 instead of (generic-call 'function args ...) 00:19:50 but since it is generic methods 00:20:06 offby1: Yeah, but that's still quite the same as simply chopping off a flonum at some decimal 00:20:33 I cannot include the (define to wrap the generic-call in the syntax (define-generic which creates the generic 00:20:34 Since I'm only using this in tests, and it's not critical, I think I can the FORMAT way, then call string->number 00:20:50 since several generic methods have the same name 00:21:04 which leads to several same define 00:21:35 and doesn't work with r6rs (multiple definitions) 00:22:00 (so I want to define the wrapper only if the function is not in the generic method table 00:22:43 Is there a solution? 00:22:49 Mikaeel_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@129-97-241-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 00:23:33 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:23:44 MetaEntity: no idea; I lost you at "generic method lib" :-( 00:24:20 ok 00:24:35 -!- MetaEntity [~56499fa8@gateway/web/freenode/x-rompqbqxwwshfygc] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:25:27 *jcowan* unvanishes and all that 00:25:35 jcowan: Hello. 00:25:42 Hey ho, arcfide. 00:25:49 *offby1* mumble how does he do that and all that 00:26:43 I'm boiled if I know, my dear offby1. 00:27:08 well, stay out of that hot water, there; it's bad for ya 00:27:26 TV says it was 92° in the small island off the US East Coast! 00:27:29 *offby1* seethes with envy 00:27:40 It was, but not today. 00:27:49 (FORMAT "~,2F" 4.012345) doesn't seem to work :P 00:28:06 seangrove: do you have FORMAT in your Scheme? 00:28:30 seangrove: one of the #scheme regulars (I've forgotten who) has written a nice "fmt" library 00:28:33 very very flexible 00:28:36 foof? 00:28:38 arcfide? 00:28:40 offby1: That would be foof, i think. 00:28:40 one of y'all 00:28:41 Foof indeed. 00:29:02 I've been successful enough with the built in FORMAT in Chez, so I haven't ever really used foof's library, though I do hear it's good. 00:29:13 It can also generate C code, which is cool. 00:29:51 Using chicken... it has format, but the , throws it off 00:30:10 I'll have to check that 00:30:55 seangrove: I don't think Chicken has a full-fledged FORMAT. I think it has a simplified version. 00:31:24 Most Scheme's don't implement the full Common Lisp format. 00:33:14 -!- MononcQc [~ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:35:10 Ok 00:35:23 I can...just...grab a substring... 00:35:31 MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:37:30 -!- neilv [~user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:37:44 hehe... (string->number (substring (number->string 1.41421355348881) 0 4)) 00:37:46 That works 00:37:46 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-230-17.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:37:50 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:38:08 oh my god 00:38:10 that is SO ugly. 00:38:14 Oh my 00:38:16 I agree 00:38:18 and yet 00:38:20 and yet 00:38:28 it has a certain cruel beauty. 00:38:43 You can assume number->string won't give you any leading zeroes ... 00:38:53 elderK [~elderK@125-238-255-59.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:38:55 handle negative numbers properly, and you've got something there. 00:38:58 -!- elderK [~elderK@125-238-255-59.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Changing host] 00:38:58 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 00:39:06 rudybot: eval (string->number (substring (number->string 1.41421355348881) 0 4)) 00:39:07 *offby1: ; Value: 1.41 00:39:11 *nod 00:39:16 rudybot: eval (string->number (substring (number->string -1.41421355348881) 0 4)) 00:39:16 *offby1: ; Value: -1.4 00:39:24 good point about negative numbers though 00:39:26 rudybot: eval (string->number (substring (number->string #x123456deadbeef) 0 4)) 00:39:26 *offby1: ; Value: 5124 00:39:29 That would have bitten me 00:39:43 I can't think of anything else other than a - that might show up to the left of the digits. 00:39:58 Yeah, an if check 00:40:04 Ugly, but this is just for unit testing 00:40:36 rudybot: doc round 00:40:41 *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/numbers.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._round)) 00:47:17 ahk 00:47:28 rudybot: eval (number->string -1.07693786454356e-08) 00:47:41 seangrove: error: with-limit: out of time 00:48:26 rudybot: eval (number->string -1.07693786454356) 00:48:27 seangrove: your sandbox is ready 00:48:28 seangrove: ; Value: "-1.07693786454356" 00:48:39 rudybot: eval (number->string -1.07693786454356e-01) 00:48:39 seangrove: ; Value: "-0.107693786454356" 00:48:48 rudybot: eval (number->string -1.07693786454356e-08) 00:48:48 seangrove: ; Value: "-1.07693786454356e-08" 00:50:41 at least that infuriating "out of time" error is happening a bit less often than before 01:09:08 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 01:13:47 -!- rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:16:35 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-230-17.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:20:43 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:22 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 01:33:27 rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has joined #scheme 01:35:16 Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 01:36:16 Hi. 01:36:23 No messages for me, minion? 01:37:56 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 01:39:50 -!- rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:42:01 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-230-17.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:47:36 rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:42 phao [~phao@189.107.224.220] has joined #scheme 01:57:23 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:56 riastradh: Ted Nugent called; he wants his shirt back 02:14:07 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-250.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 02:15:40 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-230-17.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:15:51 Bah, stupid router. 02:20:53 rudybot, tell Ted Nugget or however you spell his face that I don't know where he is in the habit of leaving his shorts, for which I have no responsibility. 02:20:53 Riastradh: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 02:21:54 Hello Riastradh! 02:21:58 Hi. 02:22:17 How's the shaking of things? 02:22:42 *Riastradh* quivers at the sound of chandler's interrogation. 02:22:45 ...or, what? 02:23:18 Ah, my attempt at colloqualism has failed. 02:25:10 In plainer English: what's up? 02:26:49 A pervasive manifestation of the Rayleigh effect, I suppose... 02:27:20 m811 [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 02:28:25 -!- towodo [~anonymous@209-6-213-168.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: towodo] 02:28:57 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-230-17.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:29:23 Apparently arcfide's router is failing. 02:29:36 I've been seeing this a lot lately. I think freenode is failing. 02:29:38 Let's see...the iPhone developer agreement has grown even more ridiculous... 02:30:22 ...a court has ruled that the FCC doesn't have some of the power it claimed... 02:32:25 Not much is up here, though. 02:33:15 Honestly, I find the developer agreement less interesting than Apple's justification for not allowing iP(hone|ad|od touch) owners to bypass the App Store and run unsigned apps on their own devices. 02:33:32 Well, strike "interesting" and replace with "odious". 02:37:05 Oh, I should probably quote that justification. Take it away, Steve Jobs: "You know, there's a porn store for Android. Anyone can download them. You can, your kids can. That's just not a place we want to go." 02:37:40 Odious indeed. 02:40:39 I think those are both simply symptoms of a general problem, the consequences of which are described in Stallman's disturbingly prescient short story _The Right to Read_. 02:40:41 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-250.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:40:47 In absence of a method of running unsigned applications, if they wanted to keep the App Store as being the distribution channel for endorsed, "best of the best" apps, I'd be fine with that. A restriction on programming languages, especially one that forbids merely binding to the existing native APIs from something like Gambit, is not particularly well-justified, but it's their call in that context. In either event, I can't get particularly ... 02:40:53 ... worked up about this. 02:41:59 Yes, I was reminded of that Stallman story too. 02:45:06 I am concerned only insofar as the iPhone's pervasiveness influences the way people generally think about objects that are really universal computing machines, but whose concept is being replaced by that of closed, locked appliances. Fortunately, there still exist platforms other than the iPhone for similar purposes. 02:45:25 The more worrisome part of this is that Apple has not yet articulated one justification for these restrictions that would not equally apply to Mac OS X. 02:45:49 -!- seamus-android [~alistair@host86-178-140-209.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:49:34 I am also concerned that people *aren't* getting the concept that `buying' an iPhone, a Kindle, &c., much like `buying' software such as Microsoft Office, really means buying a licence to use the devices for limited purposes, and only for as long as Apple, Amazon, &c., want. 02:49:38 I do agree with that concern. I don't demand that everything with a CPU in it be programmable, but when such devices are essentially sold as replacements for computers, they ought to be capable of actually computing - on the device, not through some cross-development process that involves a review process or paying to become an "official" developer. 02:51:29 I was able to program my PalmOS devices, including a *wristwatch*, on the device and as I pleased. (In Scheme.) That I can't on something which is sold as a tablet "computer" is absurd. 02:52:18 Riastradh: it's even worse than buying MS Office. MS has never attempted to ban or severely restrict third-party free/open software for it's OS that I know of. 02:52:23 So the concept I am afraid most people have of such devices is neither physically nor legally accurate. 02:52:56 Right now, many people want to do lots of things that can only be done on computers, so computers are mass-market articles and cheap. But if new devices are introduced, not computers-as-we-know-them, that provide the things people want, then computers, real computers, will become expensive. And that's bad for *us*. 02:53:43 jcowan: The distinction between computers-as-we-know-them and these devices is arbitrary. It essentially boils down to a series of protections in the device's operating system, coupled with an absurd law that makes it a felony to bypass such restrictions. 02:54:42 True, but one might say the same about microwaves. 02:55:13 If enough programmers decide that it's not a good idea to use their skills in furtherence of an end that's harmful to them (for the reasons you describe), then people who desire to use the creations of those programmers will find themselves buying computers. 02:55:40 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176202182.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:55:44 But it's important for programmers not to fool themselves about the situation, or claim that the business concerns justify this. 02:55:53 As the Spartans said to King Philip: If. 02:56:18 jcowan: One might! I'm not sure why it should be illegal to compute on my microwave, if for some reason I decided to do that. 02:57:02 For some reason I stumbled across discussions on reddit and ycombinator about this, and the number of replies in defence of the trend (or its particular symptom) was appalling. 02:57:03 chandler: would depend on whether you can turn the microwave emitter on in a unrestricted manner 02:57:22 Adamant: That is the act which ought to be restricted. 02:57:43 If I find a way to do that without altering the microwave's microprocessor, that would similarly be problematic. 02:57:58 chandler: and there are multiple ways, engineering-wise, to do that 02:58:12 Of course. 02:58:21 including using a microprocessor 02:58:25 And doing so is indeed restricted. 02:58:55 but the point is, the stuff where there is a compelling argument to possibly restrict things on a cell phone 02:58:56 Adamant, it is reasonable to have laws against using a microwave transmitter to do damage to a human, or against transmitting radio signals on frequencies needed for emergency response -- but that's because these actions directly adversely affect other people. 02:58:56 By *us*, btw, I mean not "those who write software to run on client-owned devices", but "those of us who like to fool with computers" 02:58:59 is alread restricted 02:59:05 But changing the microprocessor so that I can play a game of pong using the keypad and LCD while my food cooks - what is the concern in law with that? 02:59:24 cpr420 [~cpr420@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 02:59:33 the whole baseband processor deal exists for that reason 02:59:45 The microwave oven company probalby has no incentive to sue anyone for circumvention of their existing protections. 02:59:48 Adamant: I can similarly alter my computer to transmit in the 2.4GHz ISM band at a higher-than-allowed power, or outside of the frequencies allocated for this purpose in the US. 03:00:36 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 03:00:40 The anti-circumvention laws are grossly illiberal, but it seems we have to live with them. 03:00:42 What ho, foof! 03:00:47 hey 03:01:09 chandler: I think there can be legit reasons to restrict embedded devices to some degree, at least to the extent of removing blame from the manufacturer and chain if someone alters them 03:01:10 jcowan: Or to drag the FBI into it, as Apple claims that running unapproved code on one's own iPhone is a violation of the DMCA, which is a criminal infraction, not a civil offense. 03:01:36 I consider that mere flatus vocis. The U.S. Attorney has better things to do than prosecute such people. 03:01:41 the iPad is not really anything that falls into that category 03:01:45 Adamant: This is an area that is already well-covered by existing law. 03:02:07 jcowan: Tell that to Dmitry Sklyarov. 03:02:15 chandler: quite possibly, I'm just discussing general principles 03:02:16 Who was not prosecuted. 03:02:39 you don't have to be prosecuted to have a chilling effect. 03:02:41 "flatus vocis" ... dunno what that means but it sounds amusing 03:02:53 sounds like 'fart voice' 03:02:55 oh, are we discussing the death of scheme on the iPhone? 03:03:00 Adamant: something like that 03:03:02 jcowan: I believe he was charged. 03:03:15 You're right, chandler. 03:03:18 offby1: I figured it was the Roman equivalent of 'blowing hot air' 03:03:24 *foof* 's startup dreams have been squashed 03:03:34 Fart of the voice, literally. 03:03:39 O noes! What happened? 03:03:40 foof: Was the iPhone an integral part of that? Why not simply redirect to Android? 03:04:06 chandler: iPhone seemed easier, i could switch to android though 03:04:30 i'd already been hacking on the iPhone though 03:04:39 foof: Come join usssss! .... 03:04:40 Also, as far as I'm aware Palm has not placed such restrictions on their native development environment. 03:05:02 hell, Nokia has some phone that runs honest-to-god Linux, where you can get a shell and everything. 03:05:03 chandler: the general thing is that, for instance, motors are now quite often governed by microprocessors, and so is a lot of other potentially dangerous equipment 03:05:15 (Android is a linux kernel but it's fiddly to get a shell) 03:05:40 that's out of the lab and the shop, and inside the home 03:06:28 Adamant: Of course. But the law has already adequately covered this area. Companies have been altering the code that runs on engine control units for some time. It'll void your manufacturer's warranty, and if the company distributes something that's dangerous they might be found negligent, but the restrictions on them are no greater than those that applied to the original manufacturer of the equipment. 03:06:56 chandler: alright. I am certainly not a legal expert. 03:07:04 Adamant: It ought to be no different than replacing a mechanical part of a complex and dangerous system. Surely one must know what one is doing, but the fact that a microprocessor is involved does not alter any fundamental considerations. 03:07:06 I know this idea will be unpopular, but: why all the fuss? If you don't like Apple's terms, don't buy their product. 03:07:35 offby1: Because of what I said above: the trend is ominous. 03:07:56 offby1: already doing that. strongly considering not buying a Mac for my next machine, which has much less unreasonable terms. 03:09:05 in the absencee of this, would definitely buy a Mac as long as the cash was on hand. 03:09:11 offby1: I've every right to be concerned. Such terms do not exist in a vacuum. They are binding on developers because the government will enforce the terms of the contract, and they are binding on the users of the device because the government has made it illegal to bypass Apple's app store. 03:09:34 offby1: I am the government (and you are too!), so you've every right to be concerned too. 03:09:34 timj__ [~timj@e176193226.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:09:47 jcowan: sorry, haven't been following closely. 03:10:25 but if I don't develop for the iPhone, why should I care? It's just a case of onerous contract terms. If you don't like the terms, don't sign the contract. 03:11:49 Well, the second reason is more obvious: your property is not yours to control anymore. But the first is valid too. I don't care to be involved in enforcing onerous contract terms. Courts have long torn up contracts for similar reasons. 03:12:47 reasonable arguments. 03:13:04 I dislike the idea of buying something, and in effect, signing away my right to futz (or, if you will, "tinker") with it. 03:13:12 That said, it all ultimately boils down to the problem that there's no legal alternative to the App Store. It isn't just a selection of applications that's been vetted by Apple and found worthy of their seal of approval. It's the only game in town, and the force of law stands behind that. 03:13:21 But still, ain't nobody forcing you to buy an iPhone. 03:13:58 offby1, no -- the danger lies not in the text of the agreement, but in the pervasiveness of the device. If the iPhone weren't so prevalent it wouldn't concern me. 03:14:01 Of course not, but I can still be concerned without that. 03:14:42 what's the worst-case scenario? 03:15:16 Everyone has an iPhone or similar device, computers become rare and expensive, apps without Apple approval have no market. 03:15:20 That sums it up. 03:16:05 I guess that'd suck, for sure. 03:16:09 The most plausible near-term worst-case scenario is that Apple begins transitioning all of their products over to this kind of operating system, and developers have the ability to run their own applications only at Apple's discretion. 03:16:12 Maybe I'm just a dumb optimist 03:16:34 They have not articulated one reason for these restrictions on an iPad that would not equally apply to a MacBook. 03:16:37 But I think there will be enough market demand for true computers that they will continue to exist 03:16:57 offby1, have you read Richard Stallman's short story _The Right to Read_? 03:17:03 a totally locked-down platform like the iPhone will eventually get bypassed by an open one, since there'll be more innovation on the latter 03:17:29 So, in the near term, OS X is an iffy proposition. It may only exist as long as Apple decides that it's more profitable than hassle to keep it. 03:17:33 Riastradh: sorta. I was predisposed to agree with his point (since I admire him) but I thought his writing was so god-awful that I couldn't bring myself to finish it :-| 03:17:44 chandler: That's how long all products exist. 03:17:49 offby1: You're assuming that "innovation" is what users are paying for, and not a slick, well-designed media consumption experience. 03:18:12 Indeed. 03:18:38 offby1, I hope that the iPhone will eventually be bypassed by a more open platform, but the existence of, and hope for, that possibility does not preclude my concern. 03:18:41 elly: Sure. It's also why I've begun to move away from the platform. I'm not going to wait until the end. 03:18:51 chandler: I think eventually users will want whatever it is that Apple is denying them. Porn, probably :-| 03:19:13 *elly* is using entirely linux, and worries that the disappearance of the economies of scale involved in the current computer market will make this far more difficult. 03:19:36 Despite Steve Jobs's idiotic deployment of that as the argument as the justification for forbidding users from running unsigned code, the porn vendors have quickly adopted HTML5 and bypassed the entire issue. 03:20:12 offby1, the danger is not in that people will always be able to get around the restrictions -- the danger is that the restrictions will come to be expected in general as the norm. 03:20:21 offby1: _The Right to Read_ brings up one other reason to be concerned about this. Numerous public schools will soon be issuing iPads to students. 03:20:26 ...er. 03:21:01 I read somewhere something to the effect of "any platform which hackers don't like to hack on will never become popular" 03:21:06 Replace the start of that sentence by `the danger is not avoided by the fact that people will...' 03:21:11 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:21:12 offby1: That would be Paul Graham. 03:21:26 It's another example of pg being stunningly wrong, too. 03:21:34 elly: It sounds like him, but I don't think this particular quote was his. 03:21:39 Are there hackers who like to hack on Windows?? 03:21:44 Riastradh: Yes. 03:21:45 Yes, oddly. 03:21:51 Riastradh: I know some of them. They're strange people. 03:21:53 Perhaps that's just an intelligent paraphrase of Steve Ballmer's "Developers, Developers, Developers, ...". 03:21:58 chandler: I think so. 03:22:01 *chandler* is on a Windows system right at this moment. 03:23:07 Microsoft, oddly, has actually been producing interesting tools and platforms. A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that they would whole-heartedly endorse functional programming - with as good an environment as F# is - but here we are. 03:23:25 DOS/Windows made it super fun and easy to get started programming it, as did the iPhone, which is why they took off IMO, but the problem is how long the subsequent winter lasts after Microsoft/Apple decides to lock it down. Then the cycle begins anew. My 2 cents anyway. 03:23:55 metasyntax: I've never tried iPhone development, but I have trouble seeing how it'd attract your average bright 12-year-old. 03:24:01 It seems very awkward to develop for 03:24:10 you have to own a Mac, for one thing, if I understand correctly. 03:24:15 which is expensive 03:24:16 It is extremely awkward. It has attracted deep pockets and existing Mac developers. 03:24:56 I imagine that 12-year-olds probably can't legally sign the developer agreement in most jurisdictions in the United States... 03:24:57 There are a few bright youngun's developing on the iPhone, but it certainly isn't the equivalent of the Microsoft tools I was using at that age. 03:25:25 I think the pad is a more long-term threat than the phone, actually. 03:25:25 Riastradh: I believe that their parents can act as their agent. 03:27:29 Well I think part of the draw and the fun side is when a few people get some wild success with it, then everybody jumps on board, then corporation realises how much money they can make, which leads to the lock down / bloat / dumb consumerization, then intellectual winter for the Good Hackers... 03:27:40 chandler: DAMN you're young. 03:27:55 ... leading eventually to death and rebirth. 03:27:57 when I was 12, Microsoft was ... uh ... actually, it might have existed, just barely. 03:28:14 six guys in tacky shirts in Albuquerque or something. 03:29:09 *metasyntax* goes partially on the rash of "Learn iPhone" and "Learn Objective-C" books which launched a year or two after the iPhone came out 03:29:43 offby1: Yes. Yes, I am. 03:30:17 But I've been told that I speak fogey as well as a native speaker. 03:30:44 jcowan: I'd agree, since the iPad is now being pitched as a direct replacement for a computer. 03:31:30 And so it is, for many people. 03:31:34 That's the worry. 03:32:06 jcowan: I think your employer's confusing two-OS strategy in this space has resulted in lackluster competition. Chrome OS appears to be MIA, and it seems that Google has been sending signals that it should be preferred to Android on small-computer/tablet-style devices. 03:32:26 My soon to be former employer. 03:32:31 jcowan: Hrm? 03:32:32 Oh, really? 03:32:39 O Rly?! 03:32:40 bummer 03:32:41 They are awarding me the Boot with stars and clusters. 03:32:45 ow 03:32:49 bet those stars hurt 03:32:52 Yeah. 03:32:54 Hmph. 03:33:03 Yeah, hmph. 03:33:16 So if anyone knows of interesting jobs anywhere around here, please find it in your hearts to etc. etc. 03:33:30 I hear Apple's hiring. 03:33:36 Will you still have funds for pumpernickel bagels? 03:34:13 Microsoft is hiring too. 03:34:15 Jobs aren't in short supply. Interesting jobs.... 03:34:26 Microsoft offered me some neat OS research thing 03:34:30 If that's your deal... 03:34:42 elly: _I_ would work for Microsoft Research. 03:34:50 wouldn't touch any other MS job though, 03:34:59 Unless they paid me about 5x what it was really worth 03:35:12 They offered me a staggering quantity of money 03:35:17 on the other hand, so did google :P 03:36:04 Christ! I hate you. 03:36:17 *elly* was all like ":D" 03:36:35 I interviewed at Google maybe 30 months ago, and they said "no" at lunchtime -- they disliked me so much I didn't even get the full day's worth of grilling 03:36:35 I suppose this is the byproduct of a piled-higher-and-deeper certificate. Do you have one of those, offby1? 03:36:42 which I hear is unusual :-| 03:36:43 offby1: oh :( 03:36:46 chandler: I do not have a PhD, no. 03:36:52 elly: Oh, I thought you did. 03:36:54 chandler: oh heck no, I don't even have an undergraduate degree 03:36:59 Nope. I am just finishing undergrad. 03:37:08 she's smart, is my guess 03:37:08 offby1: Ah, that's the problem. You're not "above the mean". 03:37:17 chandler: they pretty much said as much 03:37:19 elly, so, how much of your brain did you have to sign away to Google? 03:37:25 Riastradh: I'm not sure yet. 03:37:35 elly: if you accept, any idea which city you'd be in? 03:37:40 offby1: Boston; already accepted 03:37:45 excellent! 03:37:51 You can have tea with chandler 03:37:52 I think that I got hired on the strength of being person #2 on this page: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~410/staff.html 03:37:55 I can? 03:38:08 ask him, but I think he's in Boston; I think he drinks tea 03:38:25 I will certainly have tea with chandler, if he'll have me :) 03:38:38 it's good you're not person #3; I'd hesitate to hire someone who wears a gas mask 03:38:40 I can? 03:38:48 I'm in Chicago, for what it's worth. 03:38:49 offby1: That's scuba gear, hon. 03:38:53 WHAT ever. 03:38:55 "hon". 03:38:56 pff 03:38:58 offby1: Chicago and Boston are not the same. 03:39:06 Sorry, I picked that up off one of my friends and I can't get rid of it. 03:39:12 elly, surely the mask supplies gas to its user! Hence, a gas mask. 03:39:23 chandler: since when? Am I totally on drugs to think you were a Bostonian? 03:39:29 *offby1* picketers chandler at MIT for some reason 03:39:29 Yes, you are on drugs. 03:39:36 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 03:39:36 Nope. 03:39:37 s/ picketers / pictures/ 03:39:40 all this time. 03:39:43 No, it was electrical engineers, not computer scientists, who were picketing all last year at MIT. 03:39:44 I must have just assumed. 03:39:50 *offby1* slaps Riastradh upside the haid 03:39:51 Well, electricians, to be precise. 03:39:53 The important question when considering a gas mask is: are you my mummy? 03:39:56 can't a guy make a typo once in a while?! 03:40:06 Riastradh: Hah! 03:40:08 It was a beautiful typo, though, offby1. 03:40:23 helped along by Emacs' dynamic completion 03:41:01 *elly* bounces around a bit. 03:41:14 elly: well, we'll expect you to carry on the tradition of smuggling Scheme into the World of Commerce. 03:41:24 (I hear they're pretty strict about using only Python, Java, and C++) 03:41:31 offby1: I have no idea. 03:41:51 offby1: The new acceptable list is C, C++, Objective-C, and JavaScript. 03:41:58 chandler: seriously? 03:42:04 Well, that's Apple's acceptable list. 03:42:06 ah 03:42:13 was gonna say. 03:42:22 :-) 03:42:40 And only the browser's JS, not just anybody's. 03:43:16 I would like to see Google pay a ton of $$, attract the sorts of developers who'd otherwise work for Apple, and make Android even more appealing. 03:43:18 Compete! 03:43:27 *offby1* waves his stupid Android flag 03:43:34 Indeed. 03:43:50 *offby1* was the first on his block to get a G1. 03:44:23 Yeah, and I'm still stuck with it. Why are these things so darned expensive unsubsidized? 03:44:31 *shrug* 03:44:36 lotta development 03:44:38 $ 03:44:49 I was delighted to get $150 for mine when I sold it on eBay. 03:45:23 I have a more cynical view. I personally think it's to discourage people from buying them that way, so that users are perpetually under contract. 03:47:15 I figure: when you buy the unlocked phone, you're paying its actual cost, plus a reasonable profit margin. 03:47:25 *foof* doesn't really trust Google any more than Apple 03:47:25 chandler: they're even more expensive subsidized in many cases. 03:47:30 When you buy with a contract, of course, it's roughly the same as the free razor that tempts you to buy blades. 03:47:41 Adamant: when you include the cost of the contract, of course. 03:47:53 offby1: yes, which you should :P 03:47:58 foof: I do a little, but probably not for rational reasons. 03:48:12 Adamant: That's true if and only if the provider offers a discount on service for unsubsidized phones. T-Mobile is the only carrier which does so. 03:48:37 -!- rudybot is now known as rudybot_ 03:49:02 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 03:49:11 offby1: The 16GB iPad 3G costs less unsubsidized than the 16GB iPhone 3GS. The former is in every way more expensive to manufacture than the latter - even accounting for some BOM cost reduction on the main logic board thanks to extra integration in the new A4 processor. 03:49:53 Excuse my ignorance, but how does apple impose their restriction? 03:50:36 chandler: wait. The older 3G costs _more_ for them to make than the 3GS? 03:50:46 offby1: iPad vs. iPhone 03:50:54 eli: You can only get on the App Store if they accept your application (via a review process). Hacking your device to allow installation of apps through other means ("jailbreaking") is a felony, thanks to the DMCA. 03:51:11 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:51:13 oh oh oh 03:51:18 Adamant: missed that crucial detail 03:51:19 chandler: Do they actually read the code? 03:51:48 You don't need to submit source code, but they are using static analysis tools. Their enforcement of the various restrictions has so far been arbitrary. 03:52:11 So what's preventing people from using Foo->C compilers? 03:52:22 eli: It is forbidden by the license. 03:52:23 Interpreters and emulators are forbidden, and multiple emulators for classic 8-bit micros have been rejected, but there are at last count a half dozen or so emulators for the HP-48 on the App Store for some reason. 03:52:27 Your code may not be generated. 03:52:33 (Yes, really.) 03:52:38 chandler: funny since "interpreter" isn't a clearly-defined line 03:52:48 eli: It's not allowed. Applications must be "originally written" in C, C++, Objective-C, and JavaScript. 03:52:53 it's reasonable to consider _any_ program that processes input to be an interpreter 03:52:57 I'm not talking about an emulator -- I'm talking about using whatever language I want, compiled to C. 03:52:59 or at least, so SICP tells me 03:53:06 eli: Won't fly. 03:53:10 eli, what prompted this whole discussion several hours ago was my casual remark about the new iPhone developer agreement, released yesterday, which expressly forbids any program not originally written in C, Objective-C, C++, or JavaScript. 03:53:13 eli: What I'm saying is that you might slip under the radar. 03:53:37 The agreement actually uses the words `Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript...'. 03:53:44 How can "originally written in C" be determined? 03:53:46 "Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine" 03:54:06 eli: That's why I was talking about their selective enforcement. 03:54:14 What if I hack together a C compiler via CPP -- is that kosher? 03:54:26 eli: it probably _can't_ be determined; they're simply hoping to scare people away 03:54:39 If some foo->C compiler pops up above the radar screen, they will adjust their static analysis tool to detect it. 03:55:01 let's DOS 'em: we'll all write our own compilers. 03:55:09 In fact, we'll write automated compiler-writers! 03:55:21 I can't imagine any reason for detecting and rejecting such uses... 03:55:22 generate 25,000 distinct C compilers every day! 03:55:33 When the Phonegap tool for writing applications in JavaScript was found to be violating a "private API" clause, *all* apps using Phonegap were rejected, because Apple adjusted their tool to detect that environment. 03:55:56 But then again, I really fail to understand how that absolutely *horrbile* company's products are so popular. 03:55:58 eli, easy: control. 03:56:07 Riastradh: ^ 03:56:15 it _is_ nice to have a smooth consistent UI. 03:56:20 Ain't denyin'. 03:56:36 That way of thinking just kills me. 03:56:42 eli: They want to disallow Adobe's Flash to native code compiler, which uses LLVM to compile ActionScript to native code. They furthermore want to forbid the trivial workaround of telling LLVM to produce C (which it can) and compiling that with the iPhone SDK. 03:57:07 Yes, eli... 03:57:08 Colloguy [~flx@64.134.236.48] has joined #scheme 03:57:14 Hence this round table of choir members all preaching to one another. 03:57:17 offby1: Is an application written using Gambit, but with an interface created in Interface Builder, rough or inconsistent by nature? 03:57:26 "by nature"? Dunno. 03:57:27 eli: It is determined, ultimately, in court. 03:57:42 offby1: Is an application written in C that creates its own user interface using OpenGL - not running afoul of the agreement - likely to be smooth and consistent? 03:57:48 Riastradh: My guess would be that at least 80% of the participants own Apple products. 03:57:58 Count me out. 03:57:58 The apps I've used on the iPhone are indeed pretty smooth; smoother than the Android ones I've used. Perhaps that's due to the choice of apps; I dunno. 03:58:09 jcowan, of course, that's only if the developer takes Apple to court. But the developers have all agreed not to sue Apple for various things. 03:58:18 chandler: If Flash is the whole point, then isn't there some more direct way to forbid it? 03:58:37 jcowan: It's not going to be determined in court. Apple is under no obligation to distribute their application. This is merely a list of reasons why you would be rejected. What is enforced by the contract is the use of the developer provisioning tool to allow you to run your own code on your own device, and that would be severed by a violation. 03:58:39 jcowan: You mean you don't have anything from that place? 03:58:43 I'm speaking here of Apple taking the developer to court, on the grounds that reverse engineering shows his app was written using some compiler-to-C. 03:59:03 For false representation? They wouldn't bother. 03:59:04 jcowan, I don't think Apple would take a developer to court. Apple would just drop the developer's applications from the store. 03:59:05 eli: Yes. 03:59:38 chandler, Riastradh: you're probably right. 04:00:13 Basically, the agreement guarantees that the developer has very little legal clout, enabling Apple to do what they please to the developers' applications in the store. 04:00:40 That wouldn't be so bad, if the store were not the only distribution channel. 04:00:45 I have no motivation to own a Mac (I hate the interface, and it costs too much) or an iTool (costs too much, I don't care about the interface) 04:01:14 where Tool=phone, pad, pod, etc. 04:01:26 The one reason why I could see this agreement as a restraint of trade is that the developer must develop their application, and *then* find out whether Apple will distribute their application so they can profit from the fruits of their labor. 04:01:52 I believe you can't even see this agreement until *after* you pay Apple to join the developer program. 04:02:30 If you reject it, though, Apple will surely refund your money. That's black-letter, and no amounts of covenants not to sue will help them there. 04:03:49 jcowan: I think the same too -- but more than that, I've hated them with passion for years because of such things. 04:04:58 eli, I will confess to owning several Apple laptops. I have been very pleased with the hardware for various reasons, such as target disk mode. Only one of those laptops runs Mac OS X, though, but only an old version of it and only out of inertia -- it will eventually cease to do so. 04:05:16 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 04:06:04 I was very pleased with the hardware, prior to the Intel transition. I was very pleased with the software, until I discovered their contempt for my ability to run software as I please on my own computers. Now, I am not so pleased with them. 04:06:28 Yes, I'm not nearly as fond of the MacBook on which I am presently typing as I was of the aluminium PowerBooks. 04:06:56 I owned a mac laptop for a bout two weeks, got mad at it, and sold it (on eBay -- lost a lotta $ too) 04:07:07 whenever I get an error using mzscheme it doesn't tell me which line was the problem (http://pastebin.com/UFBnrGST), however drscheme seems to figure out what line was it. Is there some way to make mzscheme's error report better? 04:07:13 I was not nearly as fond of the aluminium PowerBooks as I was of the titanium ones. My TiBook just celebrated three years of uptime the other day. 04:07:21 (Running Linux, of course.) 04:07:24 *elly* is typing on a Dell Precision M4400, and loves it. 04:07:44 *jcowan* is using a Lenovo T60p which, alas, belongs to Google. 04:07:47 ate2muchuranium: Yes. See http://docs.plt-scheme.org/errortrace/index.html 04:08:10 *chandler* is typing on a keyboard that's plugged into a - *gasp* - non-laptop computer. 04:08:31 *eli* is in elly's camp 04:08:36 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.224.220] has left #scheme 04:08:39 What is this `non-laptop computer' device of which you speak, chandler? Does it involve cabinets and tape drives and teletypes? 04:09:19 It's a type of cabinet called a "tower case". There's no tape drive in it, but it does store data on rotating magnetic media, and has the option of reading and writing spinning optical media. 04:09:59 There is a display connected to the computer via a cable. If the display ceases to function, I can replace it without having to replace or disassemble the processing unit. 04:10:00 Rotating magnetic media? That sounds like a dangerous motion for core memory! Are you sure it's safe? 04:10:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_1 04:10:21 Seems appropriate. 04:10:32 No, but I take precautions for the inevitable day that the read head crashes into the spinning media. 04:10:57 You see, I actually have two such disks in the computer, and periodically the computer copies data from one disk to the other. 04:11:05 *jcowan* would like such a thing, but fears he lacks the space. 04:11:19 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 04:11:36 *elly* has not had such a thing in years. 04:12:28 *jcowan* pays a modest sum per month, around US$10, to back up all his stuff to Amazon S3. 04:12:39 jcowan: Hm, that's not a bad idea. 04:12:46 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 04:12:47 *chandler* very much enjoys `make -j4', and would not enjoy the tradeoffs resulting from having this number of cores in a laptop. 04:13:00 *elly* pays $0 per month to back her data up onto a friend's server 04:13:13 If you're going to back up to the cloud, I'd recommend tarsnap. 04:13:26 Do you have personal experience with it, chandler? 04:13:32 Yes, I do. 04:13:46 jcowan: what tool do you use? I've never found a backup program that I'm entirely happy with 04:13:58 hm, for the truly paranoid, you say... 04:14:07 chandler: I'm using tarsnap now. 04:14:15 Niggly interface, but at least it works. 04:14:28 Hmm. 04:14:29 tarsnap ticked all the boxes for me. It's encrypted, it uses a local cache for deduplication, it's fast enough, and it's cheap enough. 04:14:33 Colin Percival is a good writer, and is responsive 04:14:34 offby1: What about it don't you like? 04:14:35 I kind of like that idea. 04:14:35 I use JungleDisk. 04:14:46 $30/GB-month is pretty good. 04:14:46 er 04:14:48 offby1, have you found *any* program that you are entirely happy with? 04:14:48 $0.30, that is 04:14:56 chandler: I wish it (gasp) had a nice FS interface, so I could mount my backups. 04:14:59 A 100% premium over Amazon's prices seems excessive. 04:15:01 Instead, it emulates "tar" 04:15:14 jcowan: never got jungledisk working to my satisfaction 04:16:02 offby1: Ah, well, I pretty much use this as a push-only operation, aside from verifying that I can recover if need be. 04:16:35 jcowan: I'm not interested in how I could wring every dollar out of this. It does what I need with a minimum of fuss and in a way that I find agreeable. 04:16:45 Sure, whatever you like. 04:16:58 *jcowan* has no desire to start a flamewar about S3 backup agents. 04:17:01 Write it, offby1! 04:17:14 Riastradh: faaaaar too lazy 04:17:37 jcowan: Me neither - I was just explaining why I find the premium to be worth paying. 04:19:21 jcowan: For what it's worth, I don't think it's 100% S3. I believe there's an EC2 node involved in the process too, so the pricing is not a straightforward margin over S3. 04:21:55 So there is. 04:22:38 JD doesn't have a server in the backup loop: just client software and S3. There is a GPLed retrieval-only client available also, which is somewhat reassuring. 04:23:35 -!- ate2muchuranium [~root@189.107.132.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:24:00 Indeed, and that's probably a point in its favor. 04:30:08 Is there anything new in the working group world? 04:30:20 New and exciting and interesting, I should say. 04:30:35 Riastradh: i'm preparing a proposal for strings 04:30:47 (More tl;bh flamage doesn't qualify.) 04:30:59 Excellent acronym 04:31:32 "Too long; butthead"? 04:31:46 (That was my daughter's immediate interpretation.) 04:32:06 That's as good an expansion as any. 04:33:12 jcowans-daughter++ 04:33:14 Hah. I'll have to start using that. 04:33:36 (I'm pretty sure Riastradh meant Tom Lord & Brian Harvey.) 04:33:40 Sure. 04:34:29 Oops. Now you've immortalized the connection to their names in Google, chandler. 04:35:03 arcfide [arcfide@99.186.238.73] has joined #scheme 04:35:33 Whoops, sorry. 04:35:50 -!- arcfide [arcfide@99.186.238.73] has quit [Client Quit] 04:36:09 Such backbiting! 04:37:40 , in case any of you have forgotten. 04:37:42 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/y85onwq 04:38:53 Hah. Yes, I have forgotten. 04:40:33 Riastradh: damn, that's funny. Never saw it before. 04:40:48 who knew sarahbot dated back to prehistoric times? Not I. 04:43:00 -!- MononcQc [~mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 04:44:20 So, who wants to donate a Lemote Yeelong to the project to make MIT Scheme run on MIPS64? 04:44:31 I thought sarahbot was officially prehistoric at this point? 04:45:29 Riastradh: I'm not even sure how to get ahold of one. 04:46:05 chandler, oh, that's easy, just contact Danny Clark. 04:46:55 How much are they? 04:47:14 Under $500, last I spoke with him. 04:47:15 aren't they like $150? 04:47:22 or not 04:47:22 No, they're a little more than that. 04:47:50 I think Derkeiler was a minor net.celeb back in the Usenet days 04:47:55 or am I remembering wrong 04:48:27 Riastradh: Gosh, that seems somewhat expensive. 04:49:06 My devotion to strange and interesting processors and the ability to see what's going on in the firmware of the WiFi module of my system does not stretch that far. 04:49:40 heh, I suspect one is a German name and the newsgroup host is a German word 04:49:46 Yes...that's part of why I didn't buy one on the spot. The other is that I want a larger keyboard and screen. On the other hand, if someone were to donate one, ahem, to the project, of course I'd have no objection! 04:49:48 and not run by the same folks 04:49:58 s/The other/Another/1 04:52:14 (I also wouldn't mind if those who appreciate the freedom offered by this system said a few words about the detestable lack of freedom of those who actually produce this system. I haven't seen that on Danny Clark's site, which I'm looking at, nor on the gNewSense site.) 04:52:57 Which system? I'm lost.l 04:53:12 The Lemote Yeelong, jcowan. 04:53:18 jcowan: See http://freedomincluded.com/ 04:54:45 Ah, I see. 04:55:11 chandler, to be fair, neither does practically anyone else selling computer hardware. 04:55:48 Riastradh: No, but it isn't fair - if one's goals and principles are freedom-oriented, then one cannot apply that selectively. 04:56:29 Yes, that's a good point. 04:56:53 (What was that you said about expensive...?) 04:58:41 Oh well. 04:59:46 I'm not sure what the expensive part has to do with it. 05:01:32 There is surely a connection between the low price of labor and the aforesaid detestable lack of freedom. 05:01:35 It would be a great deal more expensive, I imagine, if the manufacturing plants were in a freer place. 05:02:03 And you're assuming that I wouldn't be willing to pay more if it was made in a freer place. 05:02:40 It's not about what you are willing to pay personally, it's about the market-clearing price, or rather the manufacturer's view of what that might be. 05:02:41 No, I'm not. I was just making a generic remark about the correlation between said lack of freedom and said expensiveness. 05:03:43 My remark was probably too terse, though. 05:04:19 Regardless, all I asked for was at least a token recognition of the people whose freedoms are not being respected. I am willing to entertain the argument that economic engagement with countries like China is the best practical strategy for encouraging the growth of freedom, but to not address the issue whilst portraying the product as one which respects freedom is a bit odd and inconsistent. 05:08:20 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:08:28 Sure, I agree. 05:08:48 Anyway, I seem to have brought the channel far away from Scheme this evening. 05:09:07 Is the firmware for this WiFi device really free, or is it just embedded in the module via flash or mask ROM? 05:10:43 It appears to be the latter. How is this better than, say, Intel's WiFi chipset, where the firmware is redistributable as a binary blob? 05:10:57 Riastradh: Fair enough. 05:12:20 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@129-97-208-67.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 05:13:27 Intel's firmware is not freely redistributable or modifiable -- it has an EULA that prohibits reverse engineering. 05:13:35 -!- cpr420 [~cpr420@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Vision[0.9.7-H-090423]: i've been blurred!] 05:14:21 (I don't know what the situation is with the Lemote wifi, though.) 05:15:58 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@129-97-241-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:16:44 They claim "State machine implementation without external memory (RAM, flash) requirement" - which may mean that enough of the MAC layer processing is offloaded onto the host that an embedded CPU is not required. 05:22:49 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:23:01 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:30:07 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 05:30:58 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:24 Weird... I wonder what this `.wapi' directory in my home directory is. 05:33:53 can anyone shed some light on this: http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Unicode 05:34:12 does that mean SBCL strings are Emacs-style arrays of 3-byte chars? 05:34:33 or packed 21-bit chars? or something else? 05:35:55 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:45:41 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:46:02 cpr420 [~cpr420@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 05:46:42 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 05:48:44 -!- Colloguy [~flx@64.134.236.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:49:15 foof: SBCL strings use 32 bits per character, but it only allows code points up to 2^21-1. 05:50:02 chandler: thanks 05:51:02 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:53:38 chandler: someone on #lisp said they optimize for ASCII strings 05:54:16 Yes. A SIMPLE-BASE-STRING uses 8 bits per character, but only code points up to 127 are allowed. 06:11:05 funkenblatt [~user@c-67-180-111-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:13:54 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:17 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 06:27:50 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:28:06 bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:31:59 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:41:38 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:44:10 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 06:48:32 -!- funkenblatt [~user@c-67-180-111-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 06:52:41 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 06:54:41 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 06:57:27 esav [~user@189001136087.usr.predialnet.com.br] has joined #scheme 07:07:58 nebogeo [~dave@cs78174123.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 07:09:15 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 07:16:43 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 07:28:36 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 07:35:18 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 07:36:29 fabe [~fabe@p54A7C7A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:37:49 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 07:45:46 -!- nebogeo [~dave@cs78174123.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:01:24 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:28 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 08:02:29 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:06:32 neilv [~user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 08:10:21 -!- neilv [~user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:12:05 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 08:12:32 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 08:30:02 is offby1 still here? 08:32:45 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Quit: reboot] 08:35:06 dzhus [~sphinx@95-27-129-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 08:46:42 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: elderK] 08:54:16 -!- madmuppet006 [~madmuppet@203-211-88-206.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:56:52 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:58:10 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:01:34 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 09:06:32 ak70 [~ak70@85.232.206.46] has joined #scheme 09:07:25 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:08:45 -!- ak70 [~ak70@85.232.206.46] has quit [Client Quit] 09:12:10 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 09:18:16 masm [~masm@bl7-37-201.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:19:58 -!- ray [ray@the.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:26:10 ray [ray@the.ug] has joined #scheme 09:33:02 -!- esav [~user@189001136087.usr.predialnet.com.br] has left #scheme 09:51:06 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:52:16 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:02:55 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:03:22 Colloguy [~flx@99.48.50.58] has joined #scheme 10:06:10 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:11 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:26 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 10:13:10 -!- PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055142081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:15:17 PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055130246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:15:26 -!- Colloguy [~flx@99.48.50.58] has quit [Quit: bye] 10:20:13 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:18 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 10:31:36 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 10:35:37 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:11 choas [~lars@p5B0DB124.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:48:05 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 10:52:42 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:05:20 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@95-27-129-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:06:12 MetaEntity [~56499fa8@gateway/web/freenode/x-sotruerwcjckqksp] has joined #scheme 11:06:18 hi everyone 11:06:43 Is there a way to make conditional defines in scheme? 11:06:55 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 11:08:09 (if (= a 3) (define b 3) #f) 11:10:27 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:11 an other solution would be for me to be able to define a variable at expansion time in a syntax 11:12:19 if someone has a solution 11:14:32 MetaEntity: why would you need this? 11:14:52 I made a generic function lib 11:15:06 and I want to wrap (generic-call in a lambda 11:15:23 since I have several procedures with the same name 11:15:34 Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 11:15:36 I got a multiple defintion error 11:15:56 I would like to be able to check before create a new wrapper if there is already one 11:16:03 all this in a define-syntax 11:16:18 hmm, the easiest way out is to define the generic function once, and just add methods to that afterwards 11:16:47 i.e. require e.g. (define-generic foo) before any (define-method ...) invocation 11:16:48 you mean manually define the wrapper? 11:17:09 ah ok I see 11:17:16 2 seperate syntax 11:17:42 but how someone know when using a lib if the generic has been defined? 11:17:59 or he if he needs just to add a method? 11:18:31 `foo' (the generic function) would be part of the library's API 11:18:38 (and exported, of course) 11:19:02 ok I see thanks 11:19:42 if I import a r6rs lib which contains a symbol I already have in my environment, what happens? 11:19:46 error? 11:20:00 It's probably possible to do what you originally intended with advanced syntax-case hackery, but I wouldn't know how 11:20:12 MetaEntity: yep 11:20:21 ok 11:20:25 thanks 11:20:31 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 11:20:50 np 11:21:11 MetaEntity: have you had a look at TinyCLOS? 11:21:39 no, I am new in scheme, I heard of it only 11:21:47 what does it do? 11:21:55 does it provide a solution to this problem? 11:22:17 it implements a CLOS-like multimethod "object system" 11:22:28 yes I know 11:22:35 IIRC, it doesn't solve /that/ issue 11:22:45 ok 11:22:54 so perhaps it is not something worthy 11:22:59 or feasible 11:23:24 I am going to use what your told me 11:24:34 an other question sometimes I got error about definitions in my r6rs lib, when I displace some define-syntax in my code after it works 11:24:55 is there a rule, or does it come from my scheme implementation? 11:25:14 sorry, couldn't understand this. can you provide an example? 11:25:32 for example within a library definition 11:25:55 I have (define (add a b) (+ a b)) 11:26:15 and below I have (define-record-type ..... 11:26:37 sometimes I will get an error from my scheme when importing 11:26:48 but if I put add under (define-record 11:26:50 it works 11:27:31 I thought I could get forward-reference even with code at expansion-time with r6rs lib 11:27:38 MetaEntity: can you paste a (small) failing example? 11:27:56 ok I am looking for it 11:28:04 lisppaste: url? 11:28:04 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 11:28:28 ok wait 11:31:31 MetaEntity pasted "R6Rs Library error misplaced definition" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97633 11:32:14 ok 11:33:43 comme erreur j'ai que le define (mp3-player-init-duration! 11:33:45 est mal place 11:34:00 si je le bouge au dessus des (define-generic 11:34:04 ca marche 11:35:47 *rotty* ??? 11:35:57 bizarre non? 11:36:07 I don't understand french 11:36:15 sorry :) 11:36:30 I am tired I forgot lol 11:37:01 My error is misplaced define for (mp3-player-init-duration! 11:37:25 if I move this definition above the (define-generic it works 11:37:35 I don't understand why 11:37:37 but I think I know what the issue is: you're having definitions placed after expressions, which is not allowed in R6RS libraries 11:38:20 what I usually do in this case, is wrap (define-values () ...) around my expressions, to make them appear like (dummy) definitions 11:39:09 ok thanks I will try 11:39:48 (define-values is not part of R6RS, but can be written as a macro, e.g. http://github.com/rotty/spells/blob/master/spells/define-values.sls) 11:40:09 thanks 11:42:28 has generate-temporaries the same purpose as gensym? 11:43:05 yes 11:43:46 ok thanks, I am not really good at syntax yet 11:44:37 If I have exp ... in a pattern and I want to get it within with-syntax 11:45:10 it is (with-syntax ((exps #'(exp ...))) ... 11:45:12 right? 11:46:56 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:47:45 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 11:49:13 -!- MetaEntity [~56499fa8@gateway/web/freenode/x-sotruerwcjckqksp] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:50:42 you don't need with-syntax for that, just use your exp in the template, e.g. #'(exp ...) 11:51:29 (I normally tend to use syntax-rules over syntax-case, unless I need features syntax-rules doesn't have) 12:12:41 alvatar [~alvatar@129.148.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:12:51 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@129.148.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 12:13:01 alvatar [~alvatar@129.148.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:15:33 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 12:24:51 dzhus [~sphinx@95-26-162-25.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 12:28:22 xray7224 [~xray7224@unaffiliated/xray7224] has joined #scheme 12:31:22 -!- xray7224 [~xray7224@unaffiliated/xray7224] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:58 xray7224 [~xray7224@unaffiliated/xray7224] has joined #scheme 12:41:55 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@95-26-162-25.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:23 -!- xray7224 [~xray7224@unaffiliated/xray7224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:14 schmir [~schmir@p54A9278F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 13:00:54 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 13:01:19 -!- Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Quit: Narrenschiff] 13:03:18 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:29 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 13:07:11 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A9278F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:08:18 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-55-243.gmavt.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:09:39 bossy-boss [~gnuser@117.136.9.36] has joined #scheme 13:23:20 who -OPERATORS * 13:25:51 -!- bossy-boss [~gnuser@117.136.9.36] has left #scheme 13:27:37 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@129-97-208-67.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:37:23 phao [~phao@189.107.190.184] has joined #scheme 13:46:28 ate2muchuranium [~root@189.107.132.204] has joined #scheme 13:48:52 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 13:50:58 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 13:59:55 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:09:00 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:11:01 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:15:14 -!- Andrej11 [~Andrej@BSN-61-31-250.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:19:32 how does one change the directory a program is started in in DrScheme? 14:21:12 (it starts the program with $CWD set to the directory the program is contained in, and I don't see how to change that) 14:21:20 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 14:24:22 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:24:59 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:27:50 scheibo [~scheibo@dsl-173-206-227-128.tor.primus.ca] has joined #scheme 14:34:05 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-56.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:36:40 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 14:37:11 sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:48:03 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 14:49:30 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #scheme 14:58:39 cky_ [~cky@cpe-065-190-148-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:01:49 -!- cky [~cky@cpe-065-190-148-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:10:34 xray7224 [~xray7224@unaffiliated/xray7224] has joined #scheme 15:36:18 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:30 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 15:38:04 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 15:42:36 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:44:11 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 15:48:24 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:53:23 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:56:18 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:29 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-45-82-65-159-57.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:05:10 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-54-82-251-95-149.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:09:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:19 Axioplas1_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 16:13:13 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:15:19 Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:26:47 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 16:34:34 bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:44:43 -!- Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 16:52:30 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:20 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 17:22:14 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 17:23:34 seamus-android [~alistair@host86-178-140-209.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:33:05 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 17:37:00 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:38:31 bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:45:48 re -- Apple SDK discussion from 12 hours ago -- "As horrible as it sounds, Apple is doing this for your own good." 17:46:34 *cky* laughs my ass off...that's like saying that the Chinese government murders Falun Gong members "for their own good". 17:49:34 HG` [~HG@xdslee077.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 17:55:14 *offby1* calls the /me police on cky 17:55:20 pronoun agreement, son; pronoun agreement 17:58:16 offby1: Yes, usually I agree, but this is one of a number of ways to maintain gender neutrality. (I could use "singular they", and some people do, but I think for the purposes of /me, first person is more expedient, even if a little awkward-sounding.) 17:59:16 *offby1* 's jaw slackens 17:59:24 *cky* is thinking about using sie/hir though. Then people can't call the singular they police on me, only the neologism police. :-P 18:00:27 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.190.184] has left #scheme 18:01:31 cky: I used ey/em/eir while I was starting to transition. 18:01:49 In today's case "own" would suffice, I guess 18:01:54 Is this what they mean by "net neutrality"? 18:01:56 -!- nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 18:03:04 basically, you have to decide who you'll annoy: old fashioned grammar nags like me, or younger PC nags. 18:03:10 can't have it both ways. 18:03:52 Let's try them all out for size.... 18:03:58 *cky* laughs their ass off. 18:04:02 *cky* laughs hir ass off. 18:04:07 *cky* laughs eir ass off. 18:04:10 *cky* laughs own ass off. 18:04:29 Well, better than laughing someone else's ass off 18:04:34 (I think) 18:04:37 :-) 18:04:39 Hm 18:06:30 fschwidom [~fschwidom@p5B268DD4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:07:10 every one of those looks stupid. 18:07:33 I like 'eir'. 18:08:03 Why not just pick one gender and stick with it? 18:08:20 You could use either "his" or "her". Nobody's going to complain, even if it would be untrue 18:08:20 Use the neuter form, if you're a paranoid android. 18:08:53 Jafet: I believe cky was trying to use the neuter forms. 18:09:04 sjamaan: Some people do not feel comfortable identifying as either male or female. 18:09:28 The neuter possessive is "its". 18:09:32 those people are such a small minority that they're lost in the noise. 18:09:44 offby1: That doesn't mean that they don't exist. 18:09:55 elly: You could alternate the pronouns. That could provide for some fun moments :) 18:09:55 offby1: Just because a group falls through the cracks of mainstream consciousness, does not mean they're not worthy of notice. :-) 18:10:04 sjamaan: I know people that do that. 18:10:04 sjamaan: I've been thinking about that too. 18:10:08 Like, seriously. 18:10:14 It is /really/ confusing. 18:10:18 hehe 18:10:20 elly: Me too, people do switch back and forth when referring to me sometimes. :-P 18:10:21 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:40 sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:10:49 cky: If you tell me what your preferred pronoun is, I will use it :) 18:10:50 elly: I didn't say they don't exist. I implied, though, that they're not worth catering to in general. 18:11:01 We could all just be girls, like totally 18:11:02 If I actually meet such a person, I'll go to some effort to be accomodating, I'm sure 18:11:12 offby1: You appear to have met such a person. 18:11:19 but until I do, I am most certainly not going to twist my speech on the off-chance that one such person might hear me. 18:11:20 Jafet: That sounds confusing. 18:11:21 offby1: cky is trying to find a convenient way to refer to hirself(?) 18:11:28 Not asking you to do so 18:11:48 sjamaan: indeed, he/she/it/they are not asking that I do anything. 18:11:56 So I'm not complaining about being forced to do something. 18:12:07 Rather, I'm making fun of what I think is an absurd choice that he/she/it/they is making :) 18:12:24 You confuse me :) 18:12:25 I do that sometimes, y'know; make fun of people. 18:12:31 It's perhaps an evil habit, but there you are. 18:12:42 elly: I'm torn between singular they and sie/hir, at the mo. :-) 18:13:00 sie sounds *really* weird 18:13:01 elly: In truth, anything will work for me, including ey/em if that's your preference. 18:13:02 cky: *nod*. 18:13:10 There should be an amb macro to do this. 18:13:13 cky: Alright. Like how ey/em/eir sound, so I'll use those. 18:13:16 Jafet: Hah. 18:13:54 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:13:58 -!- ate2muchuranium [~root@189.107.132.204] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:15:54 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:17:29 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslee077.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 18:17:41 *cky* laughs ,(amb 3)'s ass off. <-- catering to Jafet 18:18:14 At least that's geeky :) 18:18:21 :-) 18:18:26 Maybe the splicing form is more correct. 18:18:34 *cky* laughs ,@(amb 3)'s ass off. 18:18:40 It doesn't return a list 18:18:44 Just one of the options 18:18:52 *offby1* laughs some random ass off 18:18:54 That's true. *nods* 19:15:14 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 19:15:14 19:15:14 -!- names: ccl-logbot HG` Mikaeel_Mohamed kilimanjaro MononcQc attila_lendvai Daemmerung Colloguy toekutr kar8nga sstrickl fschwidom bipt MichaelRaskin seamus-android Jafet phax Axioplas1_ Nshag jewel rtra xray7224 cky Sergio` MrFahrenheit scheibo jeapostrophe dfkjjkfd alvatar rudybot ASau choas PygoscelisPapua jmcphers ray masm melba fabe saint_cypher cpr420 REPLeffect timj__ foof m811 rup alaricsp untouchable metasyntax IJP leppie haesbaert nowhere_man luz 19:15:14 -!- names: Quadrescence shrughes rt7 Poeir Intertricity nego Mr_Awesome saccade mjonsson drwho_ Adamant sladegen saccade_ gnomon pchrist xwl_ Khisanth bgs100 futilius kniu adzuci SharkBrain andreer bunzz emma araujo eli ecraven ski sloyd felipe Armageddon00 offby1 glogic borism hosh_office doc_who Pepe_ shardz rotty qebab ve dfeuer eno Kusanagi jay-mccarthy samth_away joast mreggen zbigniew Checkie duncanm aspect snorble tltstc Arelius rrm3 chandler eldragon 19:15:14 -!- names: mbishop fda314925 cmatei yosafbridge iwikiwi clog stepnem kencausey Obfuscate jyujin incubot specbot lisppaste minion z0d XTL sjamaan DerGuteMoritz Adrinael mornfall elf dlouhy Contra C-Keen gabot ineiros haptiK nasloc__ Leonidas rapacity tabe`` ironChicken rmrfchik tizoc OSC|away twobitsprite klutometis mhoye elly 19:24:48 Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has joined #scheme 19:35:23 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 19:39:46 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:39:55 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 19:42:14 -!- PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055130246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:03 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 19:43:30 PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055130246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 19:47:08 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:47:53 -!- PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055130246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:56:25 -!- Colloguy [~flx@99.48.50.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:57:56 PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055130246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 19:59:45 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:11:13 -!- MononcQc [~ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:24:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:25:13 -!- Checkie [1186@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:26:38 -!- xray7224 [~xray7224@unaffiliated/xray7224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:25 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-227-29.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:55 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-56.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:15 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-56.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:34:34 Phew, I think I'm caught up on my WG emails now! 20:34:37 How's everyone doing today? 20:36:45 Good! 20:36:49 It has been a great weekend :) 20:37:16 elly: That's great to hear. 20:37:39 I got my shiny new print copy of Chez Scheme Version 8 User's Guide. 20:37:43 Colloguy [~flx@64.134.223.159] has joined #scheme 20:37:46 woo! 20:38:46 Yep. 20:38:56 I was surprised at how many pages it was. 20:39:32 elly: Are you working on any cool Scheme stuff? 20:39:47 Not currently. My life is submerged in school. 20:40:50 rotty: No. 20:41:33 oh, I should have CCed you then: http://groups.google.com/group/ikarus-users/browse_thread/thread/85ddfd6c3d785516 20:41:34 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ydfbkwr 20:44:16 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 20:49:01 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Quit: my favourite color is blue......NO, YELLOWWWWWWWWW] 20:53:59 -!- Colloguy [~flx@64.134.223.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:56:40 Andrej1 [~Andrej@BSN-61-24-205.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #scheme 20:58:28 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 21:05:56 aack [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 21:10:17 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:59 -!- choas [~lars@p5B0DB124.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:28:11 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:39:27 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:48:12 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 22:02:58 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-37-201.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:39 -!- Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:09:43 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 22:14:15 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7C7A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:16 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 22:38:22 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-227-29.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.8 -- Are we there yet?] 22:43:48 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:37 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:46:50 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslex219.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:47:14 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:38 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:56:49 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:59:17 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:04 -!- aack [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:38 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:27:10 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Quit: Smoove out.] 23:31:48 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:47 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 23:44:13 -!- cpr420 [~cpr420@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Vision[0.9.7-H-090423]: i've been blurred!] 23:57:03 towodo [~anonymous@209-6-213-168.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:58:07 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@129.148.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving]