00:06:09 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:11 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@129.148.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:10:55 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:10:55 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:10:55 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 00:11:53 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 00:16:16 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 00:21:30 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:28:12 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 00:29:42 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:27 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:58:55 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:00 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:07:20 nickgibbon [~nring@210.8.201.244] has joined #scheme 01:07:42 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 01:19:13 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:27:29 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has joined #scheme 01:32:33 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:36:01 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:37:13 hello 01:37:26 Hello 01:37:34 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 01:42:05 hello 01:42:10 I must be going 01:42:34 I must be going 01:42:37 hello 01:43:52 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:42 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:40 Hooray for Captain Mejja, the REPL-ish explorer 01:55:54 hello :D 01:59:11 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:09:17 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-248.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:10:50 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:11:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.196.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:11:54 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:12:41 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:51 ooh a drwho 02:16:11 multiple drwhos 02:16:29 multiple ones? woah 02:17:16 There is really only one Doctor at a time, but due to the miracle of multitasking, he appears to be in many places simultaneously. 02:18:52 hi jcowan! :) 02:21:34 Hey ho, elly. 02:32:22 ysph [~user@adsl-221-198-213.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 02:33:59 haesbaert [~haesbaert@c9155a20.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 02:34:58 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:36:09 *offby1* doesn't know whether to be proud or ashamed, but: he has never seen an episode of "Dr Who" in his life. Not even a little bit of one. 02:36:13 I have seen some still photos though. 02:36:43 I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple of "Star Trek" episodes. 02:37:44 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-31-14-190.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:38:13 Good day, Schemers! What's new? 02:38:57 *offby1* ponders 02:39:06 the iPad. 02:39:07 It's very new. 02:39:18 lol 02:39:22 that is true 02:39:37 when did it come out? friday? 02:39:43 *shrug* 02:40:06 someone at work today passed hers around. I swear we'd have made less fuss if it'd been her baby 02:41:17 mmm 02:41:58 Daemmerung [~goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 02:44:26 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has left #scheme 02:44:58 offby1: ashamed. Dr Who is a great show. 02:46:41 It's a point of pride that I'm not a _total_ geek cliché. 02:47:45 Hah! 02:49:18 Never seen it myself. 02:50:35 I said it was a great show. Not that it was a geek show. It has a much larger audience than Star Trek. 02:51:50 how large is it in the uk? 02:51:53 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:52:25 Well, it's been running for some 50 years on the BBC, so I guess that it has its followers 02:52:29 -!- MononcQc [~ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:52:30 timj [~timj@e176214169.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:52:37 i dont think it has a larger audience than star trek in the us 02:53:13 doc_who: Just read the intro of the wikipedia entry 02:54:47 doc_who: the us is more people, but I doubt it's a bigger ratio. 02:56:39 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176215164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:58:08 -!- nickgibbon [~nring@210.8.201.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:08:56 So, for the code `(--- ,@blah), how many Schemes convert this into `(--- . ,blah) and how many turn it into an APPEND operation? 03:10:28 I think Gambit has the former behaviour 03:16:31 offby1: having seen an episode of Doctor Who would only be a geek cliche on this side of the pond. 03:16:34 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:17:04 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 03:17:16 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:17:45 I do not know much about Dr. Who. Is it a show that has been going continuously for 30 years? If so, have they tried to maintain a continuum or some sort of movement through the years, or are they like some shows where time seems to never change? 03:18:29 arcfide: The official answer to that is "wibbly wobbly, timey wimey". 03:18:43 Heh. 03:18:58 Basically, there's no canonical continuity, but it's all canonical and in continuity. 03:19:16 I always liked shows that had a concept of time and the characters "aged" in some appropriate sense of time. 03:19:31 Oh, there's a concept of time. Many, in fact. 03:20:39 Time travel? 03:20:42 chandler: indeed ^^ 03:20:54 arcfide: Yes, that's the premise of the show. 03:21:05 Ah, shows how much I know. 03:21:07 Doctor Who is about a madman with a box, and the box happens to be a time machine. Oh, and it's bigger on the inside. 03:21:14 arcfide: yes. And the story even handles several impersonations of the same character. 03:21:23 *arcfide* chuckles. 03:21:38 I guess I should just stick with what I know: Dancing with the Stars. :-P 03:22:35 chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-egqcrehzkzshwqja] has joined #scheme 03:23:17 Oh, and the doctor speaks Brit, so it must be good. (I admit I'm biased, for I love the Brit accents) 03:23:27 reprore [~reprore@p4b1c8a.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:23:43 If arcfide preferred that, he'd be watching Strictly Come Dancing, not the American knockoff. 03:24:11 I'm sure he enjoyed Susan Boyle 03:24:48 I'll hack youtube to find out how many times he watched her full performance. 03:25:44 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:26:07 Heh. 03:32:50 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 03:39:17 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:40:31 Naresh [~user@unaffiliated/nareshov] has joined #scheme 03:44:05 hey, i'm trying to integrate mit-scheme and emacs on windows with quack.el; i tried adding C:\Program Files (x86)\MIT-GNU Scheme\bin to Path and it's not helping. 03:44:28 ooh, windows :-( 03:44:47 I seem to recall there's something specifically for mit-scheme, that _might_ work better than quack 03:44:55 emacs doesn't like spaces in pathnames. 03:44:57 xscheme? 03:44:57 on the other hand, it might be ancient and unmaintained. 03:45:03 Naresh: maybe ... 03:45:18 try using either the shortname or else SUBST. 03:45:20 Daemmerung: I think those spaces are OK if they're just in PATH. 03:45:28 Daemmerung: i did C-u M-x run-scheme and pasted "C:\.... " when asked 03:45:58 precisely what error did you see? 03:46:42 Invalid escape character syntax 03:46:55 eww, ugly 03:46:59 did you type the quote marks? 03:47:00 use a forward slash instead of backslash 03:47:02 I suspect you shouldn't. 03:47:12 offby1: i did 03:47:22 yeah, try omitting them. 03:47:27 Daemmerung's idea is good too 03:47:52 now, if that directory is already on PATH, you don't need to type it; just type "mitscheme" or whatever. 03:49:37 got a (file-error "Searching for program" "no such file or directory" "mit-scheme.exe") 03:51:02 i think it ran now - with a new frame 03:51:22 but i have a "Output file descriptor of scheme is closed" message below 03:51:25 in the minibuffer 03:51:30 y'know, MIT scheme has a remarkably faithful implementation of emacs built into it 03:51:39 might be easier to just use that. 03:51:41 bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:51:45 Depends on how advanced your emacs-fu is 03:52:12 extending the path is certainly simpler than hassling with shortnames. my scheme-program-name is "~/MYDOCU~1/PLT/MzScheme.exe", bleah. 03:52:34 shame on Emacs for not properly dealing with spaces in file names 03:53:12 -!- chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-egqcrehzkzshwqja] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:53:13 shame on me for still running XP and having all these unnecessary spaces in pathnames 03:55:04 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-31-14-190.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:57:52 what, Windows 7 somehow eliminates them? 03:57:59 Did they move "Program Files" somewhere else again? 03:58:14 Program Files is the sole remaining offender 03:58:58 "Documents and Settings" is Users; "My Documents" is just Documents, thank god 03:59:39 I've been using Vista at work for two years, and yet I cannot remember the equivalent directory names on it 04:02:17 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:02:33 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-236-231-67.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:03:04 meh. that frame hung. 04:03:12 using forward slashes sort of worked though 04:03:37 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has left #scheme 04:04:22 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-236-231-67.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:04:43 did you give mit-scheme the -emacs option? 04:05:16 ya, after the --library "path to mit-scheme's /lib" 04:05:43 then I'm stumped. but I don't use mit-scheme myself, so I'm easy to stump 04:06:09 i'll try plt-scheme now; is that what you're using? 04:06:16 (with emacs) 04:06:25 much of the time, yes. 04:06:44 mzscheme.exe is the executable that you want. 04:06:59 okay 04:07:42 -!- rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:07:53 *offby1* cuts off Daemmerung's legs at the knees 04:08:06 see? easy-peasy. 04:08:11 rup [Rupert@deathcoil.net] has joined #scheme 04:10:12 kneasy-queasy 04:11:09 Daemmerung: do you use mzscheme with xscheme or quack? 04:12:27 just plain xscheme. Never cottoned to Quack. Keep meaning to try Geiser. 04:12:41 hmm ... wingo is sponsoring git-in-guile for Google SOC. I wish him luck 04:13:58 cool 04:14:02 plain mzscheme works 04:14:41 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:14:51 y 04:15:05 I suspect that plt-r5rs.exe etc. would also work 04:15:14 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:15:21 what does that do? 04:15:40 gives you a REPL with standard Scheme instead of PLT's mo-betta-scheme. 04:15:46 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:16:06 if you're installing this to do exercises out of a book, plt-r5rs might be a better choice. 04:16:13 okay 04:16:23 I use mzscheme because I sneer at standards 04:16:50 also b/c it's a very nice language. albeit a language that deviates from r5rs in several regards. 04:16:59 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-137.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:17:02 *offby1* high-fives Daemmerung 04:17:09 Down low! 04:17:15 *offby1* low-fives Daemmerung 04:17:28 *Daemmerung* returns the secret handshake 04:19:10 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-228-161.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:19:13 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:32 *offby1* high-fives Daemmerung 04:19:44 (just testing out my new abbrev; never mind; carry on) 04:30:27 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-221-198-213.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:33:34 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:39:14 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:18 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:44:06 *jcowan* mumbles something about Daemmerung being on the down low. 04:44:33 Heh. 04:45:34 If you ask him, he might give you the low-down on that. 04:45:43 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:47:24 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:11 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:50:44 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:13 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has joined #scheme 05:55:45 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:57 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 05:56:32 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 06:01:00 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:10:50 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 06:12:22 -!- ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:14:44 fabe [~fabe@p54A7DD26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 06:15:04 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 06:17:24 chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has joined #scheme 06:18:30 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 06:25:25 MrSamuel [~MrSamuel@60-234-246-33.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #scheme 06:25:43 what is a second-class combiner? 06:26:44 Missing context 06:26:55 ftp://ftp.cs.wpi.edu/pub/techreports/pdf/05-07.pdf 06:27:07 Page 9 paragraph 2 06:27:25 Is that scheme? 06:28:33 its Kernel - its related to scheme in some ways and there is an implementation in scheme 06:28:47 I thought that the terminology might cross over 06:29:01 It seems to be a made up term 06:29:35 ok 06:29:43 i've never seen it before 06:29:49 any idea what it might mean? 06:30:42 The make-upper's website may help http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html 06:30:56 Yeah I read that but it didn't help :) 06:31:14 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7DD26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:00 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39:25 crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 06:40:58 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 06:42:45 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:48:57 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 06:49:49 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.191] has joined #scheme 06:57:06 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:57:11 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 06:57:14 Colloguy [~flx@adsl-99-186-41-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 07:00:46 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 07:03:18 Jafet1 [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 07:07:13 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:09:14 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 07:16:48 wingo [~wingo@83.34.178.60] has joined #scheme 07:24:45 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 07:27:11 -!- wingo [~wingo@83.34.178.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:31:47 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:32:49 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 07:35:00 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 07:42:48 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 07:44:36 lisp and scheme are said to be to homoiconic languages when they are patently not, what's up with that? 07:45:43 For which definition of homoiconicity? 07:46:13 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 07:46:22 that the syntax of a language is the same (maps to) as one of the primitive types 07:46:33 How is that not true for scheme? 07:47:09 because there's all this extra syntax .... 07:49:04 The read syntax is homoiconic. 07:49:36 ok 07:50:08 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:50:25 Then there's syntax-rules, which is an additional layer 07:51:22 which read can't read, i suppose, it's all syntactic sugar that could be translated by the programmer to s-expressions 07:51:48 or can read read this additional layer? 07:51:49 How do you "translate" a cond form? 07:51:58 Do you know what read is? 07:52:12 the r in repl 07:52:28 The read procedure 07:52:42 takes a string, returns an s-expr ? 07:52:50 Yes, that one 07:53:29 can read in scheme parse all of scheme? 07:54:22 read parses s-expressions; scheme isn't s-expressions 07:54:27 Does that answer your question 07:55:28 yes, i guess 07:56:15 RTEPL in scheme, I suppose, but that's a mouthful 07:56:58 T ? 07:57:03 what is T? 07:57:13 Syntax transformations 07:57:54 Never read/heard RTEPL 07:58:37 sah0s: and no, it can't: you can't read the _value_ of (lambda (x) x) 07:59:07 (which is unfortunate. But alternatives exist for some implementations) 08:01:45 are there any language designers here? 08:01:53 should i go to lambda the ultimate 08:02:11 there's a lot of crap spouted on ltu though, people showing off 08:02:12 Is that a question for said language designers? 08:03:00 i'd like to design a language with someone 08:03:18 i'd like to design a functional programming language 08:04:26 the thing is: i want it to be extensible, i don't want numbers built in, like the original idea john mccarthy had 08:06:08 Define "numbers built in". 08:06:22 Removing number literals from the language is a rather unpractical measure. 08:06:29 no numeric literals in the core language 08:06:46 I find that utterly unpragmatic 08:07:16 it's to force the core language to have the expressivity to build numeric literals 08:07:46 they'll be in the standard library 08:07:52 What is the goal of the language? 08:08:16 sah0s: implement the lambda calculus! 08:08:31 to model as much of mathematics as possible, as faithfully as possible 08:08:57 following the principles of intuitionistic type theory 08:09:02 sah0s: There are *many* implementers here. Maybe at least 1/4 of the people here have implemented or still implement languages. 08:09:09 rock on 08:09:42 I probably can't answer your questions then, if intuitionistic type theory is a prerequisite 08:09:45 intuitionistic type theory, no numbers Ah, the typed lambda calculus. 08:10:34 Basically, you write a scheme interpreter, without numbers, and then write a Hindley/Milner type inference procedure, and you're done. 08:11:00 er... 08:11:42 I've been reading Type Theory & Functional Programming by Simon Thompson and from what i can glean from it: yes Axioplase_ 08:12:06 (numbers and arithmetic can be built just with lambdas, so you need nothing more) 08:12:21 (Yet, it's going to be sloooooooooow) 08:13:05 Speed is meaningless 08:13:54 Jafet 08:14:09 Jafet: yes, heard of Intel 80 core processor? :) 08:14:35 Does it travel at 88 mph? 08:14:42 human brains have had a few millions years head start 08:15:07 Jafet: I disagree. But, please, connect to the internet with a 56K modem and use my HP48's 2MHz processor to run your OS. 08:15:10 I don't see why any of this is relevant to using peano numbers or whatever axioplase is referring to by "numbers and arithmetic" 08:15:23 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 08:15:43 Jafet: he wants to implement numbers "outside" the core to do maths 08:15:54 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15:55 What does that have to do with the speed of anything? 08:16:05 what i don't get is that there's all this 'theory' for numbers in mathematics but when it comes down to implementation most (all?) languages implement numbers as hacks 08:16:17 Hacks? 08:16:22 I'm just warning him of some trade offs he'll have to do. 08:16:25 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 08:16:36 yes, 32 bit numbers and the like 08:16:40 Trading what off for what? 08:16:57 A 32-bit word is a value in the ring modulo 2^32. 08:17:10 He'd better use a more evolved language, with native support of numbers, knowing that he *could* do without it. 08:17:21 Jafet: it's not _N_, the set of natural numbers 08:17:30 Why does it have to be? 08:17:45 because that's what mathematicians say that they use 08:17:55 Jafet: trading speed for his McCarthist ideal. 08:18:03 Axioplase_: yes! 08:18:11 There is no speed tradeoff involved. Speed is irrelevant. 08:18:12 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:18:25 i had the idea pre hearing about McCarthy by the way 08:18:30 Jafet: I *think* he may want to use his language. 08:18:33 A formalism using binary or unary numbers has nothing to do with speed of a program. 08:18:58 The speed is determined by the environment and execution semantics. 08:19:22 sah0s, what do you do about real numbers? 08:19:30 Jafet: and again, speed *is* important. Because we write programs to do things for us, and we want things *done*. 08:19:39 Speed is irrelevant to the formalism. 08:19:54 It is relevant to other stages of language design. 08:20:13 Jafet: i don't think that real numbers are doable in any meaningful sense on a finite automata 08:20:20 Jafet: yes. But he wants to write a programming language, not a sound but unusable formal method. 08:20:48 For which uses are Church numerals "unusable"? 08:20:59 Jafet: i think individual transcendentals are but I don't think the 'set' R is implementable in any meaningful fashion 08:21:22 sah0s, so do you consider the floating-point number system a "hack" as well? 08:21:28 It is not even any simple algebraic structure. 08:21:42 Jafet: use Church numeral in weather prediction software, and tell me how the people using the software enjoy it. 08:21:42 What about twos' complement signed arithmetic? 08:21:45 Jafet: a complete hack, yes 08:22:06 Do you have a alternative way to compute with fractional values? 08:22:15 A proper language would have as much precision as memory or time would allow 08:22:19 I don't use Church numerals when writing software. 08:22:26 Jafet: why? 08:22:42 Because they are used for formalisms. 08:22:50 Well, I use them for generating types. 08:22:51 That's not a reason 08:23:06 I'm getting tired of this. 08:23:53 ssah0s, what does that mean? 08:24:02 s/^s// 08:24:17 Jafet: what, sorry ... 08:24:37 It seems like a tautological statement. 08:25:23 Jafet: what does what mean? 08:25:53 Axioplase_: you want to help me? we can use whatever language you want to code it in 08:25:58 If a program has memory and time to use high precision, it uses high precision, otherwise it doesn't. How is that relevant to whether IEEE 754 is a useful way to compute with fractional values? 08:26:00 Axioplase_: proof of concept 08:27:11 Jafet: I agree 08:28:02 I think that regular expressions need to be part of the core language, that's where i differ from mccarthy 08:28:58 You need to decide what a "core language" is. 08:29:47 Jafet: I'll paste you the augmented s-expr i have to see what you think 08:30:25 sah0s: I don't have time for this, sorry. 08:30:31 If you want to make another perl, study Icon. 08:30:43 It should illuminate certain issues 08:30:47 Perl 6 looks awesome 08:30:57 But if you wonder about how to create a language, read SICP or Lisp in Small Pieces. 08:30:58 Icon, I'll have a look at it 08:30:58 By mass or diameter? 08:31:06 Axioplase_: okay 08:31:53 Jafet: the rules and grammar part of Perl 6 is very like what i have in mind, except with 100% homoiconicity 08:34:40 Jafet: http://paste.lisp.org/display/97374 08:34:58 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 08:35:51 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@129-97-241-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:36:04 Jafet: it allows for prefixed and postfixed atoms and lists, otherwise it's too brackety 08:36:07 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 08:36:58 That's a very terse and confusing grammar you've pasted 08:38:40 Mikaeel_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@129-97-241-106.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 08:38:54 the last line should be intersection, not union :( 08:39:33 Try giving meaningful names or descriptions of those symbols 08:40:13 Intersection and union are  and  08:40:33 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:40:43 -!- Naresh [~user@unaffiliated/nareshov] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:40:46 Naresh [~user@59.162.86.164] has joined #scheme 08:40:46 E is Expression, A means Atom, P means Postfix/Prefix 08:40:56 I can't seem to edit it :( 08:41:13 I'm not sure what "postfix" and "prefix" mean as terminals. 08:42:17 the grammar allows for $hello and #(a b c) and boolean? and (d e (f) g)! 08:42:59 just standard s-expr with prefix and postfix operators for conciseness, otherwise it's just too brackety 08:43:44 writing a parser should be a cinch, should it not? 08:44:39 sorry for spamming #scheme with all this 08:44:39 You haven't defined a grammar, so that sounds unlikely 08:44:51 Jafet: er? 08:45:12 Jafet: i've just defined the syntax you mean 08:45:23 That thing you pasted is at least half a day from any sort of grammar you can make a parser of 08:45:30 That is usable for a language 08:46:22 I would give my right arm for that half-a-day, these ideas have been plaguing me for close to 6 or 7 years now 08:47:34 This is roughly what a grammar should look like: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r5rs_9.html 08:50:59 Jafet: http://paste.lisp.org/display/97374#1 ... annotated it, should be better 08:51:37 "non Western scripts" should be clarified if you want to include that off the bat 08:51:40 fschwidom [~fschwidom@p5B26ABCA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 08:51:47 Look at some unicode classifications 08:52:17 Additionally, your grammar is ambiguous as it is 08:52:38 printable unicode codepoints that are used in the words of your language 08:52:40 You can use precedences but I don't like those 08:52:58 Unicode has better classifications defined for you already 08:53:31 Jafet: then, sweet 08:53:41 Additionally, I wonder how you'd quote things. 08:55:10 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:55:17 Jafet: you're right, i do need syntax for non-printable characters but it can't break the homoiconicity principle ... 08:55:30 Jafet: quote with (quote ...) no? 08:55:59 or '() 'abc with prefix op 08:56:16 Jafet: what do you mean by quote things? 08:56:27 Is (a + b) a valid form? 08:57:24 yeah, + starts off having no special meaning 08:57:39 How is it parsed according to the grammar? 08:57:46 Give a parse tree, for example. 08:58:41 E -> (A A A) -> (a + b) 08:58:48 nothing weird 08:59:48 a is also an E, so it could be (E E E). 08:59:56 It could also be ((E P) E) or (E (P E)). 09:00:41 + is not an element of P 09:00:55 Replace it with one that is. 09:01:35 Sorry, E -> (E E E) -> (A A A) -> (a + b) 09:01:47 Replace what with what? :) 09:01:54 -!- reprore [~reprore@p4b1c8a.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:02:16 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@129-97-241-106.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:02:19 + cannot be a member of A, since it is not a letter in any language. 09:02:31 -!- bgs000 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [K-Lined] 09:02:55 So I'm not sure why you classify it as an Atom in the first place. 09:02:55 true 09:03:48 (a + b) has multiple parses, so there's something wrong, unless you want to make your syntax nondeterministic 09:04:36 does (a b c) have multiple parses? 09:05:12 are you just saying that i haven't defined the sets P and A sufficiently well yet? 09:05:14 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:39 Hrm, I made some mistake previously 09:07:22 (a $ b) can be parsed as ([A P] A) or (A [P A]). (a b c) has parses as (A A A), ([A A] A), (A [A A]) and ([A A A]). 09:07:25 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 09:09:38 cool, a* should read a+ then: http://paste.lisp.org/display/97374#2 09:10:14 Oh actually, what I said above applies to the rule as A+, not A*. 09:10:35 A* would lead to an infinitude of valid parses 09:10:52 how does it parse all those different ways? how do i make it deterministic? 09:11:29 I showed you the parse trees using [] brackets. You can confirm that they are valid rules in your grammar. 09:12:57 Perhaps you should write programs in this language to figure out for yourself what the grammar is. 09:14:41 perhaps i should, yes 09:25:38 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:28:12 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-228-161.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.8 -- Are we there yet?] 09:30:33 masm [~masm@bl7-36-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:36:21 -!- jao [~jao@83.43.35.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:36:50 phao [~phao@189.107.132.243] has joined #scheme 09:39:07 reprore [~reprore@2002:7230:593d:6:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has joined #scheme 09:42:18 attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.196.216] has joined #scheme 09:51:07 Naresh` [~user@59.162.86.164] has joined #scheme 09:51:29 -!- Naresh [~user@59.162.86.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers 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[~Sam@c-98-231-201-176.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:36:50 xray7224 [~xray7224@unaffiliated/xray7224] has joined #scheme 14:37:07 where can i get a copy of scheme for os x ? 14:37:31 Which scheme? 14:38:42 xray7224: first you need to choose one among the several scheme implementations around. 14:39:29 well im not sure really im very new to scheme infact i decided today i would take a look at it 14:39:32 xray7224: take a look at http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations 14:39:33 im not sure 14:39:45 Ooh ooh choose PLT ooh ooh 14:39:45 thanks 14:39:50 hehe 14:40:05 *rudybot* hops from foot to foot excitedly 14:40:27 *gnomon* switches out rudybot's coffee for decaf 14:40:38 i saw a stanford lecture and they cover scheme and its something that looks interesting so i thought id look into it 14:40:50 There should be a tryscheme 14:41:24 There really should be, yeah. 14:41:50 Possibly something that you don't even have to install, but that you can type basic expressions at to see how they would be evaluated. 14:41:53 Hmm... 14:41:54 *gnomon* ponders 14:42:20 There are things like that on the interwebs. 14:42:20 minion, chant 14:42:21 MORE FUN 14:42:33 mario-goulart, surely you jest? 14:42:39 i know someone who has a irc bot which will take scheme syntax and evaluate it 14:42:39 rudybot: eval (+ 1 2) 14:42:49 xray7224, that's an excellent idea! 14:42:55 gnomon: error: with-limit: out of time 14:42:57 i know someone who's done it :P 14:43:10 rudybot: eval (+ 1 2) 14:43:15 gnomon: your sandbox is ready 14:43:15 gnomon: ; Value: 3 14:43:18 sounds tricky 14:43:22 gnomon: very simplified ones. 14:43:24 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:43:43 rudybot, it's tricky to rock a rhyme... 14:43:43 gnomon: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 14:43:46 incubot: who's the best bot of all? 14:43:51 debian of course has the best line in that 14:44:11 incubot: wouldn't it be wise to ignore messages from other bots? Huh? 14:44:14 it is. it has one of the largest armies in the world man-power-wise but i'm pretty sure they have to share a revolver between an entire platoon of soldiers, haha 14:44:28 this might sound stupid but why does scheme have so much () 14:44:31 *rudybot* ponders the wisdom 14:44:42 xray7224: that's just the way it is 14:44:42 xray, to annoy programmers 14:45:02 xray7224: the parentheses are pretty much all the syntax there is, though 14:45:04 xray, only the masochists who can stand the syntax use scheme, and that makes the world a better place for everyone. 14:45:14 no {}, no semicolons or commas ... 14:45:20 really ? 14:45:21 wow 14:45:23 mostly 14:45:28 That's not why it uses parentheses :P 14:45:31 i thought python downplayed curly braces 14:45:39 :P 14:46:01 true, python uses whitespace for some of the things scheme uses () for, and C/Java/etc use {} for 14:46:15 *xray7224* hates whitespace 14:46:23 it's sneaky. You can't see it 14:46:30 yet im a python dev 14:46:31 xD 14:46:32 unless you have emacs 14:46:38 or vim 14:46:40 I've heard that ninjas like to hide in whitespace. 14:46:42 or emacs 14:46:43 or jedit 14:46:46 Quadrescence: or vim 14:46:52 xray7224: ...what the... 14:46:53 i use textmate :P 14:46:57 Ew. 14:47:04 This is a family-friendly channel :P 14:47:10 xD 14:47:14 http://writeonly.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/whython-python-for-people-who-hate-whitespace/ 14:47:16 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/y9a6pd7 14:47:17 -!- crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has left #scheme 14:47:25 *melba* giggles 14:47:54 o wow thats ace 14:48:22 If you like syntax rewriting, you're going to love macros. 14:48:56 textmate has macros ^.^ 14:49:15 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:28 I'm not sure you know what macros are. 14:49:40 gnomon: http://lotrepls.appspot.com/ 14:49:45 xray7224, no, textmate has text manipulation primitives and probably some kind of extension language. It's a completely different ball game. 14:50:06 huh 14:50:12 the word "macro" has two unrelated meanings. 14:50:31 (ironically, Emacs has both features, and calls them both "macros". It's as confusing as you'd expect) 14:50:46 mario-goulart: http://code.google.com/p/lotrepls/issues/detail?id=5 :) 14:50:54 nooo :'( textmate doens't have syntax "support" lisp/scheme 14:51:08 emacs does though 14:51:14 xray7224, you should probably use a real editor. 14:51:16 emacs owns 14:51:30 emacs doens't own 14:51:34 i use vim in nix 14:51:39 sjamaan: god have mercy on us. 14:51:46 I use vim for everything except scheme, interestingly 14:51:51 see? 14:51:54 I have found that paredit-mode is just too good to pass up 14:51:59 yes 14:52:00 I was a heavy nvi user until I found out about paredit 14:52:07 as in: it is worth attempting to remain editor-ambidextrous 14:52:19 or just use emacs entirely 14:52:38 *offby1* hung out with the nvi until those damned miners destroyed their big Tree 14:52:48 why are you guys so obsessed with emacs 14:52:55 offby1, did you use them? 14:52:59 xray7224: paredit mode 14:53:10 Don't diss it till you seriously tried it 14:53:11 Jafet: I'll never tell 14:53:13 xray7224: tetris 14:53:21 doctor! 14:53:34 I've tried paredit-mode a few times; perhaps not 'seriously', but I could never get into it. 14:53:36 Some of them want to abuse you, some of them want to get used by you 14:53:37 Too weird. 14:53:47 im not dissing anything lol you guys are just obsessed about fighting about editors 14:53:47 weird is good. see scheme 14:53:48 :) 14:53:53 Jafet: what IS it with '80s music? All of a sudden it's everywhere! 14:53:53 Jafet: who am I to disagree? 14:53:56 *offby1* cringes and whimpers 14:54:19 xray7224: we're really not. As a sworn vim user, I can honestly say that paredit-mode makes it worth learning enough of emacs to use it. 14:54:20 xray7224: Not really, we were just proposing a good alternative since you said your editor didn't have proper Scheme support 14:54:20 offby1, it's better than '00s music 14:54:30 And '90s music 14:54:47 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.191] has quit [Quit: off] 14:54:54 Jafet: http://mnvl.org/quad/musica/ 14:54:57 xray7224, I don't use emacs. I'm not obsessed with it. I wish I *did*, though, because it is a ridiculously powerful environment, and I am limiting my personal expressive power by not using it. 14:55:22 Quadrescence, already mirrored 14:55:26 haha 14:55:52 ADDING MORE BY THE