00:07:26 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 00:09:14 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@191.22.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:24 alvatar [~alvatar@62.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 00:15:04 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@62.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:28 pastorn [~alexander@aoeu.csbnet.se] has joined #scheme 00:23:40 has anyone here read "The Little Schemer"? 00:24:21 *Daemmerung* shakes the Magic Eight Ball 00:24:33 "Signs point to yes!" 00:24:48 Daemmerung: is it a good book for someone who can't code at all 00:24:57 and doesn't have the greatest math grades 00:25:11 *pastorn* shakes Daemmerungs Magic Eight Ball 00:26:01 Yes. It will not teach you to code, nor will it improve your math grades. It will, however, teach you to think recursively, and will greatly improve your Lisp/Scheme programming if you do code in Scheme. 00:26:15 "Reply hazy, ask again later" 00:26:36 but for somone who's completely new to programming, can they pick it up and learn how to do stuff? 00:26:43 or will it go over their heads? 00:27:00 walking before running and all that... 00:27:09 pastorn, might go either way. I recommend HtDP as a surer bet. 00:27:19 Define "do stuff," please. Like I said, it won't teach you to code. 00:27:38 Little Schemer might be more FUN, if you're in for the puzzles. 00:27:58 You can complete The Little Schemer and not write a line of code. Indeed,some recommend that approach. 00:28:11 HtDP might be more discipline, if you're in for building stuff. 00:28:42 Fare: cool, thanks 00:29:08 and htdp does everything in lisp? 00:30:24 if Scheme counts as Lisp, then yes. 00:30:33 it does 00:30:41 *pastorn* hides from flying bottrles 00:31:55 A series of learners' dialects of PLT Scheme. 00:32:39 i never understood the real differences 00:32:47 then don't bother, and use it. 00:32:50 all i know is that equality is messed up in one/both 00:33:02 if you want to learn Common Lisp later, you still can. 00:33:07 in both. 00:33:19 hard to tell which is worse. 00:33:21 i'm used to haskell, where equality works like a charm 00:33:36 (==) :: (Eq a) => a -> a -> Bool 00:33:39 Haskell is pure. 00:33:41 and that's about it 00:33:45 Both HtDP and TLS presuppose no prior programming experience. The HtDP authors consider their book a replacement/extension/modernizing of TLS. And since the two books share an author, I can't dispute that. Though I prefer TLS. 00:33:46 so? 00:34:06 Fare: does that matter for equality? 00:34:09 pastorn, in Lisp, you can do the same with interface-passing style :) 00:34:12 *Fare* ducks 00:35:01 (define isItTrue () (0 == 0)) 00:35:06 will that give t or f? 00:35:55 It'll raise a syntax error. 00:36:00 hehe 00:36:10 Daemmerung: could you fix it? 00:36:17 (i don't know lisp at all) 00:36:20 No. It's meaningless. 00:36:55 (eqv? 0 0) ==> #t 00:37:06 ok 00:37:13 (== 0 0) 00:37:58 what will that give? 00:37:59 but if you want to pass around an interface for equality, go ahead ... (define (isittrue i) (equal? i 0 0)) 00:39:30 or you could encapsulate the interface in a unit. 00:39:50 Fare: can you have a globally defined interface? 00:40:00 sure if you want 00:40:09 (define ...) 00:40:47 see my blog post on interface-passing style... 00:41:12 it can express manually what you do automatically with Haskell type classes. 00:41:25 Fare: sounds awesome! 00:41:35 here we go... http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.210/schemetutorial/node11.html 00:43:20 jwillia3 [~chatzilla@71.23.157.238] has joined #scheme 00:44:58 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:45:21 -!- jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:45:24 jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #scheme 00:46:34 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-123.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:49:55 would someone help me out understanding this code? I've found it on mzscheme's documentation: http://www.codetrunk.com/m9b10612 I don't understand that (let loop ([lst lst][s 0]) construct 00:53:47 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/let.html#(part._.Named_let) <-- have you readed this? 00:54:10 let me see 00:54:49 ... "readed"? 00:55:17 *SharkBrain* feels shameded 00:57:18 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 00:57:57 it makes a lot of sense now, thanks :) 00:58:20 Daemmerung, Fare: thanks for your help! 00:58:23 -!- pastorn [~alexander@aoeu.csbnet.se] has left #scheme 01:03:08 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:46 -!- HexRex [~hex@c-24-245-20-150.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:10:01 HexRex [~hex@c-24-245-20-150.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:26 -!- jwillia3 [~chatzilla@71.23.157.238] has left #scheme 01:18:02 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:32 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-79-114-185.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:30:56 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:31:16 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:31:29 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-114-185.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:49 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:37:01 -!- aquanaut [~user@pool-71-191-41-190.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:37:15 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 01:40:29 -!- Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 01:41:06 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:51:29 He done learned him some letrec good. 01:53:16 I can never pound the proper let/let*/letrec/letrec* distinction into my head, although I can use them in practice. 01:55:33 -!- futilius [~otheruser@2001:470:d:128:216:3eff:fe86:c70e] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:56:31 -!- uman [~uman@unaffiliated/uman] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:58:27 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58:38 futilius [~otheruser@2001:470:d:128:216:3eff:fe86:c70e] has joined #scheme 01:58:45 is the guy who told me about the allegro bindings here? I can't figure out what the phase object field is for. 02:01:32 it seems like it has something to do with who is on top of who on the screen 02:01:37 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:02:39 ribbs [~ribbs@p024062.doubleroute.jp] has joined #scheme 02:10:36 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:12:22 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:12:51 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:19:31 -!- MononcQc [~ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:21:49 -!- sundaymorning [~root@189.107.218.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:25:22 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-37.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:27:51 Hello everyone. 02:28:02 I got my new keyboard! 02:28:05 *arcfide* is happy. 02:29:58 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 02:29:58 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:30:44 Coolio! 02:31:36 jcowan: I have now added to my collection an authentic Unicomp 122-key buckling spring PC/5250 keyboard. 02:31:46 It has the classic click and it is quite a fun new toy. 02:33:21 nickgibbon [~nring@210.8.201.244] has joined #scheme 02:35:20 arcfide: I use a unicomp 02:35:20 arcfide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tc4XPo3sQA 02:35:20 :)))))))))) 02:36:52 i never really understand why I watch those 02:36:58 and yet once I start I feel like I have to finish 02:39:20 I now think that I have most of the common interfaces for keyboard mechanisms down. I have the Happy Hacker spring based model, the buckling spring, the scissor swtich, the membrane, and the magnetic switch. :-) 02:40:28 Quadrescence: Um, what is this movie? 02:40:41 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:54 arcfide: erm, it's an action packed adventure in Quad's House 02:41:07 (but related to the discussion at hand) 02:41:54 The chiclet? 02:42:29 Ahh, is this you setting up your Unicomp? 02:43:21 arcfide: maybe 02:44:48 Quadrescence: What, not willing to admit the geekness? 02:45:05 pfft, it's not geekness if it was given as a gift :D 02:45:30 I think it's geekiness all the more that they would give it to you. If they know you that well, the geekiness must be quite visible. :-) 02:45:39 haha 02:45:44 Maybe I should take a video of mine and the typing on it. It's quite fun. :-) 02:46:00 What model do you have? Mine is a little different. 02:46:01 Did you dump that other "keyboard" yet? 02:46:04 The chorded one? 02:46:10 I haveeeeeeee I don't remember 02:46:19 What? The datahand? No! Haha, I'm not going to dump that beauty. 02:46:29 I didn't want the one with the two rows of F keys 02:46:41 It's also not chorded. 02:47:02 err 02:47:05 Not chorded 02:47:14 whatever 02:47:19 "arcfide's keyboard" 02:47:23 LOL. 02:47:40 I don't think I'm going to give that one up for a while, it's quite good. 02:47:58 It's also one of the nicest on my hands, and causes the least amount of stress out of all of them. :-) 02:48:15 But...I couldn't pass up the opportunity to play with 24 function keys and a whole rwo of ten buttons on the left side of the keyboard. :-) 02:50:31 Haha, emacs is already enough for my hands 02:50:39 though if I could get a space cadet, I would 02:51:15 Well, everyone knows I do not use Emacs, so...:-) I have to find some other way to complicate my life. 02:51:44 you use that bad editor called nedit 02:52:09 And Vi, Acme, and now I've added THE (the modern version of XEDIT) to the list. 02:52:17 add emacs 02:52:36 Oh, I can use emacs well enough for most things, but that doesn't mean it is my preferred editor! Heheh. 02:53:03 Actually, one of the reasons I got the keyboard was to play with the authentic feel of hacking on an IBM Mainframe with a text editor that has a similar, if not quite as limited feel. 02:53:29 *jcowan* sticks with ex, just ex, thankyouverymuch 02:53:34 But, you already knew I was crazy. 02:53:41 jcowan: Good man. 02:54:44 I suppose on OS/8 I'd have to go back to Teco. 02:54:54 But I don't do OS/8 development these days, worth mentioning. 02:54:56 teco is the best 02:56:48 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 02:58:09 But it doesn't do Unicode. 02:58:13 *jcowan* wants a Teco that does Unicode 03:02:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:05 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 03:06:30 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:28 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci_] 03:14:39 *offby1* wants a taco that does chorizo 03:16:26 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:20:22 *Axioplase_* wants a takoyaki 03:21:30 *SharkBrain* wants a George Takei 03:26:21 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:30:29 Isn't he a little old for you, SharkBrain? 03:37:36 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:34 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:42:15 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:46:49 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:49:03 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:49:19 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:59:40 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:03:14 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:09:31 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:10:35 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:13:22 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:16:13 fabe [~fabe@p54A7DDF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 04:17:45 -!- shrughes [~shrughes@cpe-98-155-85-124.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:19:08 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:20:46 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 04:21:58 phao [~phao@189.107.137.47] has joined #scheme 04:23:47 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:25:20 -!- kssreeram [~kssreeram@122.174.136.32] has quit [Quit: kssreeram] 04:25:57 kssreeram [~kssreeram@122.174.136.32] has joined #scheme 04:29:17 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:40:24 -!- Checkie [11486@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 04:46:30 -!- kssreeram [~kssreeram@122.174.136.32] has quit [Quit: kssreeram] 04:47:31 Checkie [4184@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 04:56:40 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7DDF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:11 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 05:03:38 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:33  05:05:41 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:06:05 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 05:12:07 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:14:31 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 05:29:00 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:32:14 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:58 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 05:37:05 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 05:38:09 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 05:40:31 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 05:42:05 lipe26-cps [~lipe26-cp@187.106.24.18] has joined #scheme 05:42:12 hello everybody! 05:42:29 why the #lisp channel has more users than us? 05:43:07 because scheme+commonlisp >= scheme 05:43:20 It is quality, not quantity that matters. Assuming some critical mass, of course. 05:43:33 But there the people said that there is only Common Lisp 05:43:49 lipe26-cps: it's mostly Common Lisp 05:44:01 with occasional diversions into Scheme 05:44:11 thx 05:44:12 What do you think about the R6RS, I'm really confusing... I read a lot of cristicisms. 05:44:30 lipe26-cps: then, there are more CL users. What else? Why do you *expect* more schemers than c-lispers? 05:45:03 Axioplase_: I don't expect... I just wonder... 05:45:05 I don't use R6RS. I program either in R4RS, or in whatever Gambit-C provides me with. 05:45:20 gambit is really good? 05:45:27 I think so. 05:45:44 I don't know how implementation to choose well... 05:46:04 sometimes I use PLT, sometimes SISC. I think both bad... 05:46:24 Depends on what you want to do, on how much you rely on support, libraries 05:46:29 I read the R5RS and the R6RS. Something in R6 seems good to me, but I read a lot of cristicisms. 05:47:11 lipe26-cps: use what suits *you*. If you think that R6RS is nice, use it! 05:47:25 lipe26-cps: yes, you are right. 05:47:31 Axioplase_: you (not me) 05:47:40 Yes, we know. 05:48:08 somebody have Github here and want to share? 05:48:27 I'm new in Github so I have nothing there yet. I didn't send my stuffs there. 05:48:27 _pr0t0type_ [~prototype@cpe-69-201-142-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:49:18 <_pr0t0type_> Anyone have good tutorials on continuations. Specifically, collectors? I'm having a really difficult time understanding the tls examples. 05:49:57 I want to share it: anding the tls examples 05:50:05 sorry. wrong CTRL+V 05:50:09 it's: http://www.fml.eti.br/wiki/index.php/Comment.ss 05:50:35 I'm doing this project as well: http://www.fml.eti.br/wiki/index.php/ScheJava.ss is it too bad? 05:52:29 anyway, if somebody want to share code, just add me: http://github.com/felipelalli 05:52:39 how I said before, I have nothing at moment there, but I'll put 05:52:45 bye bye!! here is 3 AM 05:52:50 see you later! thx 05:54:24 -!- lipe26-cps [~lipe26-cp@187.106.24.18] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090115, built on: 2009/09/13 16:50:56 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 05:57:01 crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 06:04:16 sepult`` [~user@xdsl-78-35-194-149.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:04:43 shrughes [~shrughes@cpe-98-155-85-124.san.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:05:41 -!- _pr0t0type_ [~prototype@cpe-69-201-142-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 06:07:06 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-79-114-185.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:07:36 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:14:11 -!- sepult`` is now known as sepult 06:14:27 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:14:56 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:20:18 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:25:24 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.137.47] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:26:50 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:27:00 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-194-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:27:52 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:28:31 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-194-149.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:31:24 phao [~phao@189.107.137.47] has joined #scheme 06:33:58 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-194-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:36:44 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 06:37:04 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-194-149.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:44:25 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:46:22 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:53:06 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 06:53:47 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:53:55 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:53:55 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 07:05:54 kar8nga [~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 07:11:15 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 07:16:28 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 07:18:34 chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has joined #scheme 07:28:10 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:28:49 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 07:39:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:36 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 07:51:39 -!- nickgibbon [~nring@210.8.201.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:53:17 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:56:02 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.33] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:01:25 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:08:13 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-37.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.8 -- Are we there yet?] 08:29:03 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.46] has joined #scheme 08:41:01 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 08:44:13 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:47:56 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 08:52:48 -!- alaricsp_ [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:04:41 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 09:13:28 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 09:34:39 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:37:40 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:52:46 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:13 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 10:06:30 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:00 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 10:11:28 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:34 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 10:12:16 -!- PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f050131097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:13:52 PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055161216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:17:17 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 10:18:36 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 10:21:20 luz [~davids@201.37.225.185] has joined #scheme 10:51:43 reynard [~alan@n11211848128.netvigator.com] has joined #scheme 10:53:08 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has joined #scheme 11:01:22 -!- ribbs [~ribbs@p024062.doubleroute.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:03:59 -!- luz [~davids@201.37.225.185] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 11:06:38 -!- reynard [~alan@n11211848128.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:08:04 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:25:06 chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has joined #scheme 11:28:52 x2cast2 [~alvaro@62.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 11:28:52 kar8nga [~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 11:32:46 foof [~user@i220-220-122-111.s02.a013.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #scheme 11:36:55 -!- x2cast2 [~alvaro@62.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:37:07 alvatar [~alvatar@62.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 11:40:53 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 11:41:48 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:01 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:16:34 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:32:57 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 12:37:06 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:16 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 12:58:11 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 13:00:16 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 13:07:54 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 13:08:17 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 13:09:00 HG` [~HG@xdslfu243.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 13:09:06 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 13:11:07 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:12:23 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:12:26 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:17 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:20:50 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:30 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 13:34:58 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 13:54:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has left #scheme 13:55:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 13:55:59 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:57:29 xwl [~user@125.34.169.138] has joined #scheme 13:58:36 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:06:52 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.137.47] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:09:40 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-187.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:10:43 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:11:21 phao [~phao@189.107.137.47] has joined #scheme 14:12:47 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:15:58 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.137.47] has quit [Client Quit] 14:17:01 luz [~davids@201.37.225.185] has joined #scheme 14:22:29 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-187.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:34:39 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net.] 14:34:43 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 14:43:30 Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 14:47:56 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 14:52:06 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 14:53:38 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:54:42 sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:00:01 -!- foof [~user@i220-220-122-111.s02.a013.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:02:30 -!- crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has left #scheme 15:02:34 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:36 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 15:04:51 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:08:25 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 15:19:05 -!- Checkie [4184@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:21:24 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:10 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:24:34 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-18-192.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:24:36 BW^- [Miranda@151.81.139.235] has joined #scheme 15:24:42 guys, do you know what threading system Larceny has? 15:25:06 that it's fast, I get, but more than that? how good for network-intense, IO-intense, green threads-intense work is it, compared with gambit for instance? 15:25:17 i don't even get if it has green threads or not 15:25:30 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-149-88.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:11 anyone has an idea? 15:26:25 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-18-192.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:29:10 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.46] has quit [Quit: off] 15:34:20 \ 15:34:25 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:34:47 BW^-, I would ask on the larceny-users mailing list 15:34:59 not many larcenists here. 15:35:17 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:35:22 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has joined #scheme 15:38:16 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-42-26.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:39:35 ok 15:48:09 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:58:28 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02:19 What's a typechecker for (values)? 16:02:38 i want to get #t from this: (values? (values 1 2 3)) 16:03:03 (lambda x #t) 16:03:31 what? :) 16:03:45 in black hole / gambit, at least, not. 16:03:49 actually, that won't work, either. Anyway: `values' is not a type. 16:04:02 rigt 16:04:03 right 16:04:41 ok good point, solved. 16:04:42 thanks. 16:04:48 you could hack something in gambit, because if i recall correctly gambit implements multiple-value returns with a magical wrapper object. 16:04:56 but it wouldn't be proper Scheme. 16:07:04 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 16:09:52 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:12:12 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:12:51 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 16:14:29 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:23:39 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 16:27:25 -!- BW^- [Miranda@151.81.139.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:28:37 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:33:46 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has joined #scheme 16:38:44 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:39:19 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:47 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 16:45:34 fabe [~fabe@p54A7DDF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:53:30 -!- PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055161216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:51 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfu243.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 16:57:42 MononcQc [~ftrottier@207.253.180.96] has joined #scheme 17:04:58 timj [~timj@e176210071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 17:08:41 langmart` [~user@exeuntnas.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 17:08:54 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:09:24 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:09:55 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:50 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:13:14 -!- langmart` [~user@exeuntnas.tva.gov] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:34 chittoor [~rajesh@115.117.217.154] has joined #scheme 17:27:08 lolcow [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:28:24 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:28:30 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 17:31:03 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:38:12 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-222.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:41:30 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:57 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:57:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:48 HG` [~HG@xdslhf065.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 18:11:38 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:42 Checkie [378@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 18:18:34 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:21:27 wingo [~wingo@81.39.160.13] has joined #scheme 18:21:40 evening schemers, and also racketeers :) 18:27:51 Hey there! Hi there! Ho there! 18:29:28 racketeers? why I never...but on an unrelated note, I am still selling my copy of SICP on Amazon used...I have the lowest price :o 18:29:58 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 18:31:07 *mbishop* coughs 18:31:25 that sounds like racketeering to me :P 18:31:26 How low can you go? ;) 18:32:26 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:33:26 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:35:35 well I'm selling it for $23 off Amazon price :P 18:38:06 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:38:42 chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-dudhlficlxcymfao] has joined #scheme 18:39:47 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-73-192.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:40:01 rillig [~rillig@hmbg-4d06cb43.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:40:22 -!- rillig [~rillig@hmbg-4d06cb43.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #scheme 18:41:37 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:41:37 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:41:37 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 18:42:22 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-194-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:54:26 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:03:40 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 19:04:50 kn100 [~kn100@unaffiliated/kn100] has joined #scheme 19:05:08 if someone asks me, "what is scheme used for in the real world" what's my best answer(s)? 19:05:37 emma, ;) 19:05:46 kn100: hehehe :) 19:06:01 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:06:02 hey everyone kn100 is the person who asked me :P 19:06:16 emma: "Don't ask such stupid questions" is the best answer ;) 19:06:21 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 19:06:26 sjamaan, hey :( 19:06:29 heh 19:06:35 haha 19:06:40 haha 19:06:40 schmir [~schmir@p54A90302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:06:46 kn100: Recently a few games were made with Scheme 19:06:50 so, you'll only get snarky answers here :) 19:06:55 Lots of folks are dabbling with webapps too 19:06:57 sjamaan, example? 19:07:11 Off the top of my head: farmageddon, quantz 19:07:14 kn100, see untyped.com 19:07:14 plt, gambit, and chicken are widely used 19:07:20 guile maybe? :) 19:07:25 Colloguy [~flx@adsl-99-186-42-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:34 -!- nicktastic [~nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:47 This was the answer I actually gave: I think the most honest answer is that scheme is used by 19:07:48 in general, look at the proceedings of CUFP for examples 19:07:51 computer scientists to undrstand concepts and prove things in 19:07:51 oh crap! 19:07:54 computer science. But it's also used for real applications and 19:07:55 hey sorry 19:07:57 mario-goulart: What was ventonegro's Othello/Reversi clone again? 19:07:58 stuff. 19:08:08 irssi is not very friendly for copy paste sometimes 19:08:17 ah, samth has a good point. 19:09:06 emma, xchat <3 19:09:57 ah yes, reverso ( http://www.ventonegro.org/2009/10/scheme-hits-the-app-store/ ) 19:10:00 kn100: ^ 19:10:21 I use it to specify a task that I would like executed by computer. 19:10:46 Daemmerung: What a novel use! 19:10:51 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:10:55 *sjamaan* should try that sometime 19:12:16 sjamaan, looks interesting 19:12:49 saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-68-179.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:12:57 nicktastic [~nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #scheme 19:13:47 Daemmerung, i use it to execute my computer 19:14:27 henux [henrih@unaffiliated/henux] has joined #scheme 19:14:38 kn100: i recall an article where scheme was used to control a telescope at an observatory 19:14:43 kn100: let me see if I can find that. 19:14:45 emma, how so? 19:14:51 emma, as in what did it control, and sure :D 19:15:00 *wingo* hugs longjmp(3) 19:15:20 Does anyone have a link to that song which was made with LISP? 19:15:25 kn100: probably it's rotation and stuff 19:15:35 IIRC Gauche was used for the Final Fantasy film 19:15:37 you mean hackers must be free by richard s stallman? 19:15:47 Join us and share the software 19:15:47 er 19:15:50 we shall be free! 19:15:53 *m 19:15:53 samth: True, sometimes that task is "convert kilowatt-hours to Calories" 19:15:55 :) 19:15:55 RMS xD 19:16:12 i have wanted to make a punk version of that for a long time, but i would have to learn how to play some punky thing 19:16:41 kn100, http://www.imagine27.com/articles/2009-04-09-010147_live_lisp_art_opengl_synth_sound.html ? 19:16:42 wingo, hahah, have to hand it to rms, he does have musical talent xD 19:16:43 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/c44pj9 19:17:39 http://www.lava.net/~shiro/Private/essay/gdc2002.html 19:18:12 MononcQc, the one I remember had a drumbeat and wasn't ambient 19:18:17 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:20 emma, kn100: the telescope article is here: http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/ 19:18:24 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslhf065.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 19:18:33 search for 'optics' 19:20:01 samth, reading 19:20:27 -!- chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-dudhlficlxcymfao] has quit [] 19:21:58 kn100, see also here: http://ll4.csail.mit.edu/Abstracts.html 19:22:18 this is what I found -- http://ll4.csail.mit.edu/slides/telescope.pdf 19:22:49 samth, very cool, give me a few minutes to digest both links, and I gotta go, back in about a hour 19:26:30 that lisp opengl synth video is pretty nice 19:26:57 henux, http://impromptu.moso.com.au/ 19:27:03 I think that's what he uses 19:27:04 those guys are great. 19:27:10 couldn't try it myself, though. Got no mac. 19:28:41 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-68-179.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:29:37 yeah i have mac 19:29:40 should try this 19:29:46 it's pretty cool 19:33:33 saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-ONE-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:37:51 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 19:39:00 MononcQc: that website seems to have a banner which explains its made in FreeBSD 19:39:14 MononcQc: i mean the website having the video of the live lisp art 19:39:42 hm 19:39:59 or it might be explaining about the website itself, not the live art 19:40:54 yeah, well the guy in the video is andrew sorensen 19:40:59 henux, kn100 -- http://piratasum.com/algorithms-are-thoughts-chainsaws-are-tools 19:41:00 and he's the lead dev of impromptu 19:44:01 lisp (or scheme) is good for hacking quick stuff but i wonder how well it performs on 'hardcore' software development 19:44:40 can you name any desktop apps or computer games written in lisp? 19:45:14 one could perhaps say lisp is the computer language for hackers 19:45:45 but that does not necessarily make it optimal for commercial grade software development tasks 19:45:59 sjamaan: you mean his blog about the game? 19:47:09 mario-goulart: I already linked a post 19:47:19 Ah, ok. 19:47:50 *mario-goulart* didn't read all the backlog 19:49:56 henux, see ITA Software 19:50:11 they make very large common lisp systems 19:55:00 henux, and everyone else, this is a must see, fast forward to 7:15 --- http://piratasum.com/algorithms-are-thoughts-chainsaws-are-tools 19:55:29 it shows a person composing music in real time with lisp that is being written and changed while it plays 19:56:05 it looks like scheme to me 19:56:46 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 19:57:47 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 20:04:21 -!- saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-ONE-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:04:40 _rata_ [~c8594549@gateway/web/freenode/x-phpjajkyiktliiho] has joined #scheme 20:09:15 lopex [lopex@chello089076044027.chello.pl] has joined #scheme 20:09:18 -!- lopex [lopex@chello089076044027.chello.pl] has left #scheme 20:12:35 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:15:30 emma: http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/ 20:23:00 lolcow [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:23:01 -!- timj [~timj@e176210071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:23:04 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:23:42 emma: you can tell them i have a bunch of code floating around in scheme that is used by SOCOM for domestic and foreign PSYOPs; and other code used by doctors to prescribe chemotherapy 20:24:09 disturbing if true 20:24:16 that "real world" canard is such a red herring; it always irritates me 20:24:21 wingo: in what sense? 20:24:56 the psyops bit. not part of the world i want to be in :) 20:25:24 yeah, no shit; there's a general axiom, though, that defense technologies developed against foreign foes eventually get used domestically 20:25:25 though the military does have nice deep pockets 20:27:51 klutometis: I think "real world" is a legit question. Most people asking that have never seen Scheme code used in any software project they've ever come across, and only seen it used in teaching and textbooks 20:29:04 sjamaan: maybe you're right; but its adoption (or lack thereof) seems to be less about inherent "un-worldly" qualities of scheme than the guts of employees simply to program in it 20:29:14 i've risked my job at least thrice by just fucking doing it 20:29:25 and it's succeeded so far 20:30:01 Mad props to you then :) 20:30:21 i've only worked for two corporations, but i also like to sneak in scheme as much as i can :) 20:30:22 at some point, though, my luck will run out; and i'll be fired. 20:30:31 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 20:30:44 wingo: nice; how do you go about it? 20:30:48 klutometis: "this place was dead anyway" ;) 20:30:55 heh 20:30:56 klutometis: for simulations it's easy of course 20:31:06 saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:31:07 I wouldn't be fired, but if I decide to use it / force it and it turns out badly I'll probably never be able to use it again 20:31:08 I take the risk of using scheme at work too. 20:31:11 So I pick my battles wisely 20:31:24 I've used it a couple of times, but not for anything big yet 20:31:25 sjamaan: aye, that's the wager! 20:31:35 I've seen people get away with basically murder and not be fired. Maybe your employers are different than the ones I've had in the past, but it seems like many people are more afraid of being fired than they ought to be. 20:31:40 then at my current work we have a system for communicating by structured records, and i wrote guile bindings, so i can drive most things 20:31:53 wrote a custom language with a compiler written in guile, etc 20:32:14 chandler: I'm not afraid of getting fired (my boss wouldn't dare) but I am afraid of messing up the chance to use Scheme more in the future 20:32:38 I'm sure not ever using it will prevent you from messing up that chance. :-) 20:32:47 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 20:32:51 I've used it! 20:33:36 most of my co-workers have taken 6.001 but they prefer the devil's languages, the heathens ;) 20:33:41 hehe 20:33:58 -!- Colloguy [~flx@adsl-99-186-42-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:34:04 I've been doing some sneaky advocacy 20:34:09 I didn't have to sneak it in at my last job: it was there when I got there, and most everyone wanted to get rid of it. 20:34:11 Getting my colleagues to read the little schemer & sicp 20:34:28 chandler: That's fucked up :( 20:34:38 chandler: yeah, i spent last night hacking gnucash. those folks are scheme-averse, but it seems they're stuck with it :P 20:35:09 Not really. It was (no offense to wingo here) Guile, and it wasn't being used particularly well. Most of the software was written in Common Lisp. 20:35:41 Using something like ECL would have been a better decision, since at least there could have been some sharing with the rest of the system in that case. As it was, it seemed like a lot of things had to get written twice. 20:35:57 good use of guile is not well-understood, unfortunately 20:36:57 chandler: so did you ditch scheme there? :) 20:37:00 Extra padding bytes on unfilled software discs? Un-performance tests? Hygiene remover? 20:37:01 sjamaan: did you actually succeed in getting them to read? i tried that experiment, too, with a little success. 20:37:07 timj [~timj@e176218146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 20:37:18 I did 20:37:24 wingo: It was still around when I left. 20:37:30 suckerz 20:37:35 Even the designer read it! 20:37:53 nice; little schemer seems to sell itself, i find 20:37:54 Inertia is hard to overcome. 20:37:59 yeah 20:38:24 klutometis: I find in general the curious types who want to learn will read it 20:38:57 The developers who seem "stuck" don't 20:39:11 sjamaan: exactly; i'm not sure if that's a circular dependency or not, but agile neurons seems to be a pre-condition 20:39:21 :) 20:39:52 The lack of widespread use is a problem too. Usually people claim that they can easily find answers for common problems in popular languages. That's a problem for scheme, considering, for example, the hundreds of implementations. 20:40:24 I'm too agile for that oldy moldy Scheme language. Racket is the new hotness. 20:40:42 mario-goulart: Actually, I'm personally more concerned with deployment and maintenance issues, as well as the odd missing library (which isn't always a big problem) 20:40:50 Not to mention that sometimes you are the only one using some feature, so, nobody else has a problem. :-) 20:41:07 Common OSes don't really have well-maintained Schemes in their repositories 20:41:17 sjamaan: that's yet another problem. :-) 20:41:26 And one more. :-) 20:41:36 They're related 20:41:44 Bad repositories = headache to deply 20:41:46 deploy* 20:42:16 Sure. I face this problem quite frequently. 20:42:29 Which OSes are you thinking of here? 20:42:32 Of course *someone* has to do it 20:42:47 And you never know for sure the state of the implementations for the target platforms you don't use. 20:42:54 chandler: Linux mostly (we use that on servers) 20:42:58 NetBSD is well-maintained 20:43:05 (guess why :P ) 20:43:09 At least, Chicken is 20:43:56 s'why I use Arch. Latest stable upstream or bust! 20:44:26 I wouldn't want to have to rely on Arch for production usage 20:44:40 I've seen it break exactly twice in the short period a colleague used it on his desktop 20:44:40 i want to switch to nix 20:44:49 functional package management ftw! 20:44:58 :) 20:45:20 I use it on a few servers. Desktop packages tend to break more often than the basic stuff you need for a web server. 20:46:21 Makes sense; desktop packages tend to have shitloads of dependencies 20:46:21 *wingo* needs to switch to newer guile on his server 20:46:26 More chance to go wrong :) 20:46:38 chandler: the fact is that everybody has his/her favourite software platform and usually knows for sure his/her favourite scheme implementation works find on it. The problem is when you are asked "does it work well on ?". 20:47:00 s/works find/works fine/ 20:47:06 yeah :/ 20:47:15 Well, for this sort of thing I often recommend just using upstream binary releases or compiling from source. 20:47:37 Then we get to the deployment problem. :-) 20:48:44 Usually people take for granted that, say, python, is available and well tested for any platform. 20:48:50 We're not ever going to get to the point where every Scheme is packaged in its latest version on every distribution, and depending on how adventerous the packagers are, there's a lot that they can do to mess up developer packages (wit. Debian's common-lisp-controller) 20:48:51 That's not the case for scheme. 20:49:00 -!- kn100 [~kn100@unaffiliated/kn100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:29 chandler: exactly. 20:49:59 Yes, well somehow this has to be muddled through. This wasn't the case for Python at some point in the past. I distinctly remember installing distributions that didn't come with it at all! 20:50:24 Yeah, but Scheme is at least 20 years older than python. :-) 20:50:42 (for some definition of "scheme"). 20:50:53 Right. 20:52:41 Scheme is, but individual systems aren't 20:53:25 I think Chicken may even be newer than python 20:53:35 Yes, it is. 20:53:48 So there's still hope! :) 20:54:12 Yeah! 20:54:19 Anyway, Python deployment can also be a royal pain 20:54:25 We're working for it, sir! :-) 20:54:30 I had to set up an OpenERP server on CentOS a while back 20:54:39 You wouldn't believe the hoops I had to jump through 20:54:57 (not knowing much about python doesn't help, but still...) 20:55:00 But I bet the problem was OpenERP, not python. 20:55:17 OpenERP has dependencies which were hard to fetch 20:55:20 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-37.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:55:29 Good afternoon, gents and ladies. 20:55:31 Ah, ok. Python extensions can be a pain. 20:55:34 One dependency was even unfetchable using easyinstall, because it was hosted on a site which did something weird 20:55:38 hi arcfide 20:55:46 Hi arcfide 20:55:53 So I had to download it manually by going to the site 20:55:53 -!- haiworld [~ravi@isp.becroft.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:00 ..and then install it 20:56:22 And then it turned out there were no init.d scripts so I had to roll my own 20:56:32 Copied them from some blog, but they didn't function 20:56:34 etc etc 20:57:47 Ah! Here's a good point: you _could_ find something about that problem on the internet! Now try to deploy a web application made in awful. If you get an error (and you are likely to get) you are totally screwed. 20:58:13 That's awful! 20:58:15 :D 20:58:22 The same for about every weird scheme extension, for any implementation. 20:58:25 Man, you sure picked a great name 20:58:53 I can tell you it was inspired by the quality of the code. :-) 20:59:01 hehe 21:00:06 -!- MononcQc [~ftrottier@207.253.180.96] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:09:55 arcfide: that's actually the first time i've heard that sexual inversion; bizarre. 21:19:26 Skewb [Skewb@83.231.80.198] has joined #scheme 21:19:32 Hi. 21:19:52 Hi. 21:20:22 is there some popular HTML library for Scheme? 21:20:59 or any good framework to generate static websites? (think of something like Ruby's nanoc) 21:23:21 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 21:24:29 Skewb: Are there any particular features for which you are looking? 21:25:00 I have a number of utilities that I use for web programming, some of which may or may not work for your needs. 21:25:59 arcfide, something minimal 21:26:04 for a simple blog 21:26:18 nice features to have would be markdown support or syntax highlight (for Scheme) 21:26:25 Ah, you just want to write a simple blog page? 21:26:26 but not really that necessary 21:26:30 right 21:26:33 Do you need commenting and RSS? 21:26:34 it's not scheme, but have you seen org-mode's export support? 21:26:37 but my host has no Scheme 21:26:37 Trackbacks? 21:26:44 so i want to generate static HTML 21:26:53 http://emacs-fu.blogspot.com/2009/05/writing-and-blogging-with-org-mode.html 21:26:54 -!- chittoor [~rajesh@115.117.217.154] has quit [Quit: This client just died] 21:26:54 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ycuns27 21:27:11 wingo, nope, but i'll take look, thanks a lot 21:27:21 Skewb: I wrote a simple blog engine in MIT Scheme a while back, but I haven't ported it to other systems yet. You could use that code, it's very simple, though. 21:27:32 arcfide, i can manage to generate xml for the rss thing 21:27:36 no problem there 21:27:51 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:03 comments.. i was thinking of integrating disqus or something like that 21:28:21 Well, if you just want something simple, then there are many html libraries out there, and it's trivial to write your blox using s-expressions or something like scribble in PLT. 21:28:23 if you have no option for server-side scheme, that's probably a good idea 21:28:30 arcfide, yes, i could make some use of that code, if only to learn and build my own 21:29:05 if you have server-side scheme there is http://wingolog.org/software/tekuti/ 21:30:06 Skewb: gopher://gopher.sacrideo.us/9src/slogger.zip 21:30:19 Actually, when I get a bit of free time, I intend to extend that basic code a lot further. 21:30:45 wingo, thanks, no server side scheme though, only php (yes, that sucks) 21:30:53 are you serving a weblog software thing over gopher, arcfide 21:30:57 Have you thought about switching hosts? 21:31:00 doesn't that void your http license 21:31:09 wingo: Eh? 21:31:27 I'll have to look into the gopher protocol to download it 21:31:35 Skewb: Firefox should work just fine. 21:31:41 If not, I can make it available to you otherwise. 21:32:50 gopher makes baby tim berners-lee cry ;) 21:32:50 Heh. 21:32:50 Ah, yes, it worked from firefox. 21:32:50 Well, don't worry, a simple http proxy is in the works for Goscher. 21:32:50 Thanks. :) 21:32:50 For all you non-believers. 21:33:10 It's pretty low on the priority list at the moment, though. 21:33:30 arcfide, i considered changing host, but the current one is cheap and realiable i also host SVN there. 21:33:31 *wingo* just pulling arcfide's leg 21:33:41 GET /arcfide/goat 21:34:08 Skewb: Well, there are some cheap dedicated and VPS hosts out there. I don't know how inclined you are to go that route, but it certainly makes life easier for me. 21:34:15 has anyone every programmed in church? http://www.mit.edu/~ndg/papers/churchUAI08_rev2.pdf 21:35:18 -!- lolcow [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:38:45 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:41:21 arcfide, looks good, i'll download MIT Scheme and play with it a bit, thank you. 21:42:03 sundaymorning [~root@189.107.218.78] has joined #scheme 21:42:14 Skewb; Good luck. 21:42:55 surprise graph theory! 21:46:16 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 21:53:25 Skewb: there's http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/4/html-tags and http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/4/html-utils too. They can be used to generate static [X]HTML. 21:53:48 Skewb: Oleg's SXML toolset is also fairly popular. 21:54:26 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:55:52 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Quit: my favourite color is blue......NO, YELLOWWWWWWWWW] 21:59:04 mario-goulart, arcfide, thanks, got the links. 21:59:09 *wingo* has sxml links at the bottom of his pages 22:01:01 Another approach that some use is a purely syntactic s-expression version of sxml, or something like it. This has some advantages as far as error checking goes, and is useful for generating XML. 22:03:16 yeah that does sound interesting. 22:03:25 like john fremlin's work. 22:03:28 foof [~user@i220-220-122-111.s02.a013.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #scheme 22:04:21 Well, i just want something simple, my goal is to avoid manual repetition 22:04:48 the website i'm trying to generate isn't more complex than http://prog21.dadgum.com/ or similar 22:05:58 i think i'll take the chicken html-tags approach and build from there. 22:13:30 Skewb: are named for the twisty puzzle? 22:13:48 Yes. 22:14:19 that is cool 22:15:15 I like puzzles. 22:16:41 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:17 -!- _rata_ [~c8594549@gateway/web/freenode/x-phpjajkyiktliiho] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:30:04 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:14 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 22:34:14 -!- wingo [~wingo@81.39.160.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:36:30 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 22:41:12 code13 [~code13@r6y42.net.upc.cz] has joined #scheme 22:41:22 Newbie here, making something to school and i need to execute a line but dont return it straight away, im using set! and then some ifs but its really lame and i believe something cleaner must exist 22:42:20 code13: It's best if you past your code. 22:42:23 lisppaste: url 22:42:23 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 22:42:30 Use the above paste service. 22:42:41 i will thx 22:43:35 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 22:44:38 code pasted "mynoobcode" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97109 22:46:23 the upper function is the problem, i just pasted the bottom one because they call each other and i need to do (krok-vzad stav) in the recursion-tree destruction in each instance of that function 22:46:55 but not before i resolve whole recursion 22:47:34 code13: Are you using any particular textbook? 22:47:39 i made it like this, but im not sure i can present it in school because i rly know only basics and it might be slow 22:48:00 nope 22:48:36 Please do not present this to anyone except for help in fixing it. :-) This is not code you want to be standing behind, near, or around without a nice bucket of suds. :-) But then again, that's life until you learn the language. Fortunately ... 22:48:51 This is something that shouldn't be too hard to fix. 22:49:23 Unfortunately, I can't go into the details for time here, but what you are trying to do is write an iteratively recursive function that accumulates results into an accumulation variable. 22:49:32 sphex [~nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:50:04 so can i overcome the set! somehow ? I specifically need to execute (krok-vzad stav) in destruction of recursive tree but not return it anywhere. 22:50:20 Yes. 22:50:42 do tell pls :) 22:50:51 I would start by getting some basics about recursion. Section 2.8 of TSPL has some info on that: http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/start.html#./start:h8. 22:51:16 i know about recursion i wrote chess ai in java, i just dont know about lisp 22:51:41 especially about doint something without returning it 22:52:35 After you are comfortable with this basic part of recursion, you should check out section 3.2 which covers iterative recursion some: . 22:53:05 The point here is that you update the value waa on each recursive call, accumulating the result, instead of SET!ing it. 22:53:18 -!- sphex_ [~nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:53:23 It's an application of tail recursion. 22:53:32 In Scheme, iteration is achieved via tail-recursion. 22:53:53 I also recommend checking out the early chapters of SICP. 22:54:03 Those should give you the information for which you are looking. 22:54:13 I would take you through it step by step, but I can't do that right now. Good luck! 22:54:39 Thanks ill try to find something about accumulator 22:55:17 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 23:01:28 -!- code13 [~code13@r6y42.net.upc.cz] has quit [] 23:06:19 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7DDF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:19 phao [~phao@189.107.139.36] has joined #scheme 23:12:09 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:13:18 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:42 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:13:44 Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:13:57 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:14:16 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:01 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:08 -!- Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:19 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:17:26 Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:18:08 -!- Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:08 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:17 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:18:18 Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:18:24 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:24 -!- Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:36 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:18:38 Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:18:44 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:19:40 -!- Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has left #scheme 23:21:00 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:23:12 -!- xwl [~user@125.34.169.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:24:04 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:24:16 Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:24:52 fschwidom [~fschwidom@p5B26AB65.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:25:14 -!- Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:24 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:25:57 -!- fschwidom [~fschwidom@p5B26AB65.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:41 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.121] has joined #scheme 23:33:22 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:33:29 Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:34:51 -!- Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Client Quit] 23:34:58 Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:39:14 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:39:26 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-237.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:41:44 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-222.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:42:00 -!- foof [~user@i220-220-122-111.s02.a013.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:43:11 -!- Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:43:20 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:46:49 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:47:42 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47:43 What is the most popular web framework these days ? 23:47:48 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:49:41 probably something like django or rails 23:50:01 for scheme I mean 23:50:37 "Scheme" and "popular" are incompatible words. 23:50:47 *Daemmerung* cries 23:50:56 well, at this level of popular, "most popular" is within the error bar of "least popular" :P 23:51:14 :-) 23:51:15 mario-goulart: What is best web framework for scheme then ? :) 23:51:18 upward, check out leftparen: http://blog.leftparen.com/ 23:52:18 upward: I get the feeling that everyone has their own or a slight variation of it, unless you are using PLT. 23:52:29 upward: I myself use the one I wrote, which is based on modlisp. 23:53:06 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:53:10 upward, also: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/run_ss.html 23:53:15 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:53:25 upward: tough question 23:53:50 upward: You also should provide us with more information about what applications you want to write with your web framework. 23:53:57 upward: I use an awful one: http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/4/awful 23:54:24 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Client Quit] 23:54:24 upward: Your unique situation will probably lend itself to one or another of the various frameworks out there. 23:54:31 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:56:11 MononcQc [~ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:56:43 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:57 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has joined #scheme 23:57:23 arcfide: Not very unique, just your average view for a db and some ajax so it's pretty and usable 23:58:16 Ah, but see, you're already providing us with a lot of information right there. :-) 23:58:37 For example, you're expecting a certain model of web framework, with the view abstraction and the db+ajax combination. 23:59:15 I don't know much about the integrated web frameworks out there. I usually prefer to combine mine for various libraries. 23:59:38 s/for/from/ 23:59:59 mario-goulart: interesting, i must say i love the name of your framework