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00:24:24 <ZeroEx_isNotHere> hey, I'm trying to write a function that works like this -- comp(literal) if literal looks like (not a) then return a, else return a
00:25:41 <ZeroEx_isNotHere> My problem is, comp can be called like this: (comp 'a) or (comp '(not a)) and I don't know how to test to see if it's a list to then return the (car (cdr lit)) vs returning (list (not lit)) or something like that
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00:28:51 <ZeroEx> haha forgot bout that
00:29:19 <ZeroEx> Any idea?
00:29:28 <ZeroEx> :P
00:29:52 <sjamaan> How do you know the difference between (not a) and a list that happens to have the symbol 'not as its car?
00:31:57 <ZeroEx> well, it's for a homework assignment so the only things that are comming in look like: '( (a b) (a (not b)) ((not a) b) ((not a) (not b)) ) )  and then I split that up and grab each element individually and pass it into (comp element) where element is a member of (a b) or of (a (not b)) etc
00:32:33 <sjamaan> I don't know exactly what you're allowed to use, but you might want to look at the list? and pair? predicates
00:32:43 <ZeroEx> so to answer, sjamaan, I don't know.  And actually, I'm not sure what the difference is between those two things you mentioned
00:32:52 <sjamaan> The symbol? predicate might be useful too
00:32:53 <ZeroEx> sjamaan: I'll do that! Thankyou :)
00:32:57 <sjamaan> yw
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00:34:26 <sjamaan> Also, if it's a teaching based on The Little Schemer, you might have a atom? predicate at your disposal
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00:36:08 <sjamaan> I'm off, good night
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00:47:36 <ZeroEx> g`night sjamaan
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01:14:53 <ZeroEx> how do I create a list containing "not" and a symbol?
01:15:17 <ZeroEx> for example, my function is called like (comp 'a) and I want to return (not a)
01:21:23 <mejja> rudybot_: eval ((lambda (s) (list 'not s)) 'a)
01:21:37 <rudybot_> mejja: your sandbox is ready
01:21:41 <rudybot_> mejja: ; Value: (not a)
01:22:58 <ZeroEx> mejja: just so I'm sure I understand -- that creates a function with parameter s which calls (list 'not s) with that parameter, and then invokes that function with the argument 'a
01:23:19 <ZeroEx> mejja: how is (list 'not s) different from (list ('not s)) ?
01:23:27 <ZeroEx> wait, scratch that.  I understand the difference.
01:23:30 <ZeroEx> Thankyou mejja!
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04:37:30 <apefish> hi
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04:39:08 <apefish> hello
04:39:16 <apefish> is anybody home?
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04:40:31 <apefish> hi
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04:44:09 *Daemmerung* peeks out from behind the sofa
04:45:39 <chupish> g'day
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04:53:57 <apefish> hello
04:56:35 <chupish> you seem to have forgotten a base condition in recursion
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08:25:44 <gour> morning
08:26:39 <gour> i'm learning scheme (tspl book) in order to be able to tweak gnucash (guile)...and i wonder which emacs mode you recommend? i've installed quack but not i've discovered geiser
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10:25:11 <arcfide> gour: If you're still around, I'm not sure I can recommend a major mode for Emacs that I like, but paredit is definitely something you shold look into as an editing mode.
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10:26:07 <arcfide> And for anyone who is interested, I've taken a whack at Literate Programming with a twist for Scheme. <gopher://gopher.sacrideo.us/1chezweb>.
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10:33:10 <gour> arcfide: thank you. didn't know about it
10:33:24 <arcfide> gour: Glad to be of service.
10:34:14 <gour> :-)
10:34:23 <C-Keen> arcfide: nice!
10:34:28 <arcfide> Nice?
10:34:31 <arcfide> To what do you refer?
10:34:40 <arcfide> I hope you mean ChezWEB.
10:34:44 <C-Keen> sure
10:34:47 <arcfide> :-)
10:34:54 <arcfide> Do you like it?
10:35:12 <C-Keen> I love the idea, I just have read your README
10:35:23 <C-Keen> and your approach looks promising
10:36:08 <arcfide> Well, that's the hope.
10:36:42 <C-Keen> what compression format did you use for the tarball?
10:36:50 <arcfide> I basically came up with this because I really disliked trying to make noweb fit into Schemeland.
10:36:56 <arcfide> XZ, LZMA based.
10:37:12 <C-Keen> I wrote C code with noweb and it was no fun
10:37:16 <arcfide> xz is the UNIX utility, Unarchiver on Mac, and 7-zip 9.xx on Windows.
10:37:36 <C-Keen> ah thanks
10:38:00 <arcfide> Well, the language agnostic approach sounds promissing in some ways, and for that, noweb works well, but there are real problems with that if you like pretty printing and language awareness.
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10:40:58 <C-Keen> I will see if I can port it to chicken
10:41:28 <arcfide> :-) Try it out in Petite first if you want to get a flavor.
10:43:59 <gour> have you considered Leo editor (with vim/emacs) for LP?
10:44:16 <arcfide> Leo editor? I don't know what that is.
10:44:30 <arcfide> My editors that I use are NEdit, Acme, and currently, I'm playing with THE.
10:44:40 <arcfide> I also Vi when the fancy strikes me.
10:44:43 <gour> arcfide: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
10:45:24 <arcfide> Aaah.
10:49:20 <C-Keen> looks like quite a complex tool
10:51:51 <gour> well, one can be quite productive with it
10:52:52 <gour> i also like rst plugin for writing docs
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10:59:13 <Skewb> Hi.
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12:01:29 <mweck> Hi. Is there a special channel for newbs or can I go ahead here?
12:01:41 <foof> If you have a question just ask.
12:03:05 <foof> Be patient for an answer though, you should stay logged in for at least half an hour after asking if the question isn't answered immediately, in case someone who is afk notices later.
12:03:57 <arcfide> C-Keen: it is modelled after CWEB in many respects. the one size fits all approach of Noweb didn't suit me.
12:04:07 <arcfide> C-Keen: So, at the moment there are more control codes.
12:04:18 <mweck> I am writing a script-fu and am totally new to scheme. My program calls functions that returns data, so I encapsulated this in a let*. How should I do if I have two calls with data returned that I want to use later, then two calls with returning data that I do not care about and finally one call which returns important data?
12:04:49 <mweck> The way I did it was to capture the return data in temp variables and ignore them.
12:07:02 <foof> mweck: I've seen people sometimes do that, but typically you would nest the let*'s.
12:07:41 <foof> (let* ((a (foo)) (b (bar a))) (do-something-with a b) (let ((c (qux b))) ...))
12:08:41 <mweck> Sorry for a newb question, but the difference between let* and let?
12:11:14 <mweck> foof: Thanks. It cleared things up.
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12:11:22 <foof> let* is sequential
12:11:23 <foof> ...
12:11:40 <foof> "at least half an hour" I said! >:|
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12:33:41 <tizoc> foof / arcfide: R5RS only supports define-syntax as global definitions, but R6RS allows define-syntax to be used on internal scopes. I was wondering if this is going to be considered for WG1.
12:34:09 <foof> tizoc: That's a good point, I'll add a ticket.
12:34:18 <tizoc> cool
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14:53:06 <artzz> hi everyone
14:53:13 <artzz> which compiler/interpreter is best to use with linux?
14:55:44 <pjb> Whichever.  They're all good, in their own way.
14:56:24 *foof* disagrees
14:56:48 <pjb> Personnaly, I use several, at different point of a project, and for different projects, depending on the requirements of each project or of each phase of the project.  Of course, I take extra care of using only portable libraries, and avoiding direct use of implementation specific stuff.
14:57:01 <elly> here, watch this:
14:57:06 <elly> foof: in what ways is TinyScheme good?
14:57:20 <foof> :)
14:57:32 <pjb> It's tiny?
14:57:52 *Daemmerung* waves a red cape before El Toro
14:58:55 <foof> artzz: A safe bet recommendation for beginners on any platform is PLT.
14:59:08 <artzz> yes I heard that
14:59:40 <foof> Do you have any specific needs?  What are you going to build?
14:59:43 <artzz> I was also looking at Haskell, and seems to be that performs faster than Scheme for compiled code, but I guess that is not something that can be said just like that
14:59:46 *elly* likes PLT
14:59:47 <artzz> no, I'm just learning now
15:00:01 <artzz> probably porting to embedded systems in some time
15:00:05 <elly> er, yes, but gcc also outperforms Scheme. They are not the same language :P
15:00:19 <Daemmerung> I was just going to recommend gcc.
15:00:33 <Daemmerung> except it's not an /interpreter
15:00:43 <artzz> elly: yes I know, but talking about functional languages. The thing is that Haskell has lot more stuff to know and I guess the complexity is bigger when learning it, even though it's quite straight forward
15:00:51 <foof> There's a C interpreter.
15:00:59 <Daemmerung> gci?
15:01:06 <foof> cint
15:01:07 <elly> foof: it is the saddest thing
15:02:04 <foof> elly: I haven't used it much, but it seemed to work for simple examples.  Is it no good?
15:03:04 <elly> huh? I mean the existence of that piece of software
15:03:07 <elly> I have never used it before
15:03:12 <pjb> There's also eic.
15:03:54 <artzz> now, regarding scheme itself, is there a way to understand proper and non-proper lists straight away?
15:04:06 <pjb> They would give a C REPL, which is an honorable endeavour...
15:05:50 <elly> a proper list ends with a null
15:05:54 <elly> all done!
15:06:56 <artzz> elly: well, so, what would (a . b) make the difference with (a b) ? why to define proper and non-proper lists?
15:08:05 <elly> many of the list functions don't work on improper lists
15:08:15 <elly> and can't be made to, really
15:08:49 <artzz> yes, I see, but why did the 'scheme creators' made improper lists, that's what I think I am missing in order to understand it.. or maybe some examples
15:09:00 <pjb> artzz: the thing to understand is that there are two levels. cons cells (pairs), and lists.
15:09:42 <artzz> good, so cons makes pairs and list makes lists
15:09:45 <pjb> artzz: the pair data type deals with pair?, cons, car, cdr.  The list data type deals with list?, null?, list, first, rest.
15:10:19 <artzz> ok, so improper lists are lists that contain pairs?
15:10:29 <elly> artzz: improper lists are just things that exist. If you do (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 null))), you have the proper list (1 2 3); if you do (cons 1 (cons 2 3)), you have the improper list (1 2 . 3)
15:10:29 <artzz> or pairs?
15:10:43 <elly> no; both kinds of list are built out of pairs
15:10:43 <pjb> artzz: it just happens that in lisp and scheme, lists are built from chained conses, so that a reference to a list is actually a reference to the first cons cell of that list, so some confusion may occur (and a lot of nice tricks can be implemented).
15:11:26 <pjb> artzz: now, an improper-list is a data structure built from cons cells, that is almost like a list, only that the last cons cell doesn't contain nil in its cdr, but something else.
15:11:49 <artzz> ok good. and that something else would be?
15:12:20 <pjb> artzz: while you're not reaching the end of the improper list, all the list function would apply equally well on proper lists and chains of cons cells not nil terminated (improper-list), but this is no reason to confuse them.
15:12:30 <artzz> ok
15:12:48 <pjb> artzz: it can be anything, any lisp object, but a cons cell of course, otherwise it wouldn't be the last one ;-)
15:15:17 <artzz> great
15:15:20 <artzz> I also found this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1919097/functional-programming-what-is-an-improper-list
15:15:22 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ykjrumk
15:16:45 <artzz> -- btw, what about mit-scheme ?
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19:08:43 <ZeroEx> hey, how do I debug a program in scheme?
19:09:01 <ZeroEx> In C, I would use printf statements to see where it stops executing and such
19:09:21 <ZeroEx> but in scheme, I run (write-string "asdf1") and such, and then execution doesn't continue after that?
19:09:27 <ZeroEx> or perhaps I'm doing it wrong...
19:09:44 <ZeroEx> yeah, doing it wrong.  I used it in a cond...
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19:38:58 <klutometis> incubot: there is code so bad that it can nauseate a man and castrate his enthusiasm
19:39:02 <incubot> What do you mean by 'mature enough'?  Was he castrate enough?  Or was he exited enough?
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19:44:17 <elly> minion: chant
19:44:18 <minion> MORE ENERGY
19:44:19 <elly> :D
19:44:26 <elly> I want minion to say MORE PYLONS
19:44:57 <chandler> minion: chant
19:44:58 <minion> MORE PYLONS
19:45:01 <chandler> That wasn't hard.
19:45:59 <chandler> I'd rather build more farms, though.
19:48:18 <Daemmerung> But was he mature enough last night at the lesbian masquerade?
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19:50:04 <elly> wait, how do you get minion to do that, chandler? :O
19:50:39 *elly* writes "so complicated it must be wrong" on a student handin
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19:52:32 <chandler> elly: Just think a little more about it, and I'm sure it will come to you.
19:52:34 <chandler> minion: chant
19:52:35 <minion> MORE ABOUT IT
19:52:42 <elly> I see.
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21:12:44 <Skewb> Hi.
21:13:07 <Riastradh> .iH
21:13:07 <minion> Riastradh, memo from mejja: Please revert birkholz type-punning "fix". (SIGSEGV on 64-bit machines)
21:13:31 <Riastradh> minion: memo for mejja: The X11 one?  Already done.
21:13:32 <minion> Remembered. I'll tell mejja when he/she/it next speaks.
21:16:24 <chandler> Oh, hello Riastradh!
21:16:47 <chandler> It seems like a month of Mondays since I last saw you around these parts.
21:16:49 <elly> most of my students should have their C compilers taken away from them and be forced to use Java
21:17:39 <Riastradh> Why would you subject them to that, elly?
21:17:45 <Riastradh> What crime have they committed to deserve such punishment?
21:18:01 <elly> endemic unchecked calls to malloc() and uses of uninitialized pointers
21:18:20 <chandler> How will Java prevent the latter of those two problems?
21:18:36 <Riastradh> chandler, yes, I have been making myself scarce lately, in an attempt (perhaps not entirely successful) to waste less time.
21:19:22 <chandler> It seems you went right past scarce and straight to invisible.
21:20:18 <Riastradh> elly, in that case, they should be given low rlimits, and run under valgrind.
21:20:43 <elly> Riastradh: sadly, they are writing kernels
21:21:00 <chandler> Actually, how will Java prevent the general case of either of those problems? There are certainly analogues to malloc() failure in Java, too.
21:21:06 <Riastradh> OK, then they should be given low-memory environments.
21:21:31 <elly> they are given an allocator that can be made to fail randomly, but none of them turn it on
21:21:36 <elly> the ones that do don't have unchecked malloc()s :P
21:21:37 <chandler> For that task, they should be given an environment without malloc(), unless they write it themselves.
21:21:40 <Riastradh> (This can be said of a lot of developers, actually.  Quite a lot of software fails spectacularly badly in such environments.)
21:22:08 <Riastradh> (...let alone going to any effort to recover from such situations.)
21:22:17 <chandler> Then, perhaps, they will discover just how difficult - and wasteful - malloc() can be.
21:23:12 <elly> they have all written malloc() in a prerequisite class
21:23:39 <chandler> Ah. Well, in that case, there isn't much excuse, and Java won't help.
21:23:52 <elly> yes, but it will keep them out of my class and I won't have to read their code
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21:31:12 <erkangur> hi channel, i am student in Istanbul Bilgi University
21:31:32 <erkangur> I have a question about a fundemantal function
21:32:03 <erkangur> how can I call two function in a one function which i cannot combine them
21:32:05 <erkangur> ?
21:32:31 <erkangur> I am not really
21:32:41 <sloyd> you mean like (lambda () (display 1) (display 2)) maybe?
21:33:12 <erkangur> yes
21:33:16 <erkangur> i think
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21:34:35 <erkangur> ?
21:34:47 <stepnem> !
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21:37:37 <erkangur> any idea? did I explain myself clearly?
21:38:08 <stepnem> erkangur: probably not, if sloyd's suggestion does not do what you want
21:38:50 <erkangur> i didnt understand the suggestion actually :/ sorry
21:41:23 <erkangur> is it like (lambda () (myfunc args) (myfunc2 args) (myfunc3 args))  ?
21:41:38 <stepnem> yes
21:43:34 <erkangur> hmm
21:44:38 <erkangur> i wrote :
21:44:42 <erkangur> (define (erkan x)
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21:44:51 <erkangur> (text x 10 'black)
21:44:52 <erkangur> )
21:44:54 <erkangur> then
21:45:07 <erkangur> (lambda() (erkan "erkan") (erkan "me"))
21:45:11 <erkangur> but it raises
21:45:20 <erkangur> lambda: expected only one expression after the argument-name sequence, but found one extra part
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21:46:12 <sloyd> the lambda is the function, if you use define the use (define (erkan x) (myfunc args) (myfunc2 args) (myfunc3 args))
21:47:20 <erkangur> (define (erkan x) (myfunc args) (myfunc2 args) (myfunc3 args)) doesnt work, i am working htdp advanced student
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21:49:57 <sloyd> then use (begin (myfunc args) (myfunc2 args) (myfunc3 args))
21:51:08 <sloyd> in normal scheme every function has an implicit begin, but not in htpd
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21:52:55 <haesbaert> hi, when in a <body>, all expressions are evaluated in sequence ?
21:53:03 <Riastradh> mejja, boo.
21:53:26 <mejja> Riastradh: :hello
21:53:27 <minion> mejja, memo from Riastradh: The X11 one?  Already done.
21:53:40 <haesbaert> for example in a let body, (display "1") (display "2) will always do what I intend ?
21:53:51 <Riastradh> Yes, haesbaert.
21:53:56 <erkangur> sloyd: but with begin, just last experesion works
21:54:14 <haesbaert> Riastradh: no need for (begin) then ?
21:54:49 <mejja> Riastradh: Also note his deletations in option.c
21:54:54 <mejja> :)
21:55:23 <Riastradh> mejja, yes, I've mailed him about that.  If he doesn't react soon I'll fix it myself.
21:55:35 <sloyd> erkangur: I thought that was what you wanted, to just call all expressions in order and get the last value
21:55:39 <mejja> Let's blame it on GIT...
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21:56:20 <Riastradh> haesbaert, right.
21:56:29 <Riastradh> rudybot_: eval (let ((x 5)) (display "x is ") (write x) (newline))
21:56:44 <Riastradh> rudybot_?
21:56:46 <rudybot_> Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
21:56:48 <Riastradh> rudybot_: eval (let ((x 5)) (display "x is ") (write x) (newline))
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21:56:55 <rudybot_> Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
21:56:55 <rudybot_> Riastradh: ; stdout: "x is 5\n"
21:56:57 <Riastradh> rudybot_, page yourself back into memory.
21:56:58 <rudybot_> Riastradh: eh?  Try "rudybot_: help".
21:57:04 <erkangur> sloyd: I am trying to do recursion with two function
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21:57:30 <haesbaert> Riastradh: thanks :D
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22:05:12 <sloyd> erkangur: do you want (myfunc (myfunc2 arg) second-arg) then? I don't understand your problem.
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22:07:07 <erkangur> sloyd: i am trying to call a function and then do a recursion like (define (erkan x) (another xx) (erkan x-1))
22:07:32 <sloyd> what do you want to do with the result of (another xx) ?
22:08:47 <erkangur> it should draw something, it is another function
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22:09:41 <sloyd> if you don't want the result, then begin is the right thing to use
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22:11:58 <erkangur> i am using (begin0 (draw-func ... ..) (recurs ..))
22:14:15 <erkangur> it doesnt work
22:15:58 <sloyd> in what way does it not work? please be specific: what code do you use, how do you run it, what do you expect, what is really happening?
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22:29:21 <erkangur> sloyd: it is a program that draws fractal (savannah tree)  http://sudrap.org/paste/text/2757/
22:31:21 <sloyd> lisppaste: url
22:31:21 <lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste.
22:31:28 <sloyd> for future reference
22:32:40 <erkangur> ok
22:38:36 <mejja> Riastradh: Let's nuke sf-directory? and compile-directory? in sf/butils.scm
22:39:03 <mejja> I see no point in repairing code that's been unused for 17 years...
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22:46:57 <sloyd> erkangur: it seems to me you want to use the resulting image of n-recur (an image) and combine it with draw-tree, so use overlay/xy and not begin
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22:49:20 <erkangur> i tried overlay/xy but it goes infinite loop, but it seems it is a design fault :/  i will revise it :/
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22:58:14 <ZeroEx> hey, is there a way to make scheme list the function name that's giving an error?
22:58:36 <ZeroEx> or a line number or something other than "the object (c a) is not applicable"
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23:00:42 <Riastradh> ZeroEx, enter the debugger.  Judging by that error message,
23:00:43 <Riastradh> ...er.
23:00:49 <Riastradh> Silly ^J.
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23:01:11 <ZeroEx> Riastradh: there's a debugger?
23:01:29 <haesbaert> how can I make something like map that collects all results ? without putting them in different lists
23:01:49 <Riastradh> ZeroEx, judging by that error message, it looks like you're using MIT Scheme.  If you're not using Edwin, you can type (debug) to enter the debugger (and hit `?' for help); if you are using Edwin, at the REPL you should be prompted for whether you want to enter the debugger.
23:02:49 <haesbaert> I call map on a list that has 3 entries, each call produces a list, so map put's in 3 different lists, I would like it to be merged
23:03:09 <Riastradh> haesbaert, use SRFI 1's APPEND-MAP.
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23:05:13 <ZeroEx> I'm not sure I understand this.  So I'm in the debugger and I hit e to enter a read-eval-print loop, then I load in my program and execute a command.  There's no new information?
23:05:59 <Riastradh> Use `h' to get a history of what Scheme was evaluating when it encountered the error.
23:06:28 <Riastradh> Use `u' and `d' to examine the stack of subproblems in more detail.
23:06:50 <haesbaert> Riastradh: thanks !, exactly what I needed :D
23:07:53 <ZeroEx> thankyou
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23:17:05 <mejja> Riastradh: I guess I'm the only user of replace-operator & reduce-operator.
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23:18:19 <Riastradh> Are those broken too now?
23:18:49 <mejja> Broken by joe...
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23:24:07 <mejja> Is JRM no longer a member of WG1?
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