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02:16:19 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-86.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:16:27 -!- foof [~user@FL1-118-110-11-244.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:19:28 foof [~user@FL1-118-110-11-244.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 02:21:25 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 02:23:14 *offby1* watches the tumbleweeds skitter down Main St 02:26:44 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 02:28:59 So, what formal theorem provers do you guys use? 02:29:17 *offby1* picks his teeth with a matchbook cover 02:29:42 Riight.... 02:29:57 I see I'm in the wrong place. :-) 02:29:57 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:29:58 annodomini_ [~lambda@vtelinet-216-66-104-4.vermontel.net] has joined #scheme 02:29:58 -!- annodomini_ [~lambda@vtelinet-216-66-104-4.vermontel.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:29:58 annodomini_ [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 02:32:49 annodomini [~lambda@vtelinet-216-66-104-4.vermontel.net] has joined #scheme 02:32:49 -!- annodomini_ [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:32:49 -!- annodomini [~lambda@vtelinet-216-66-104-4.vermontel.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:32:49 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 02:34:37 *offby1* talks about mining 02:37:25 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:45:10 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-21-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 02:51:15 ray [ray@the.ug] has joined #scheme 02:53:51 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:55:09 -!- scheibo [~scheibo@129-97-249-119.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:56:34 -!- Checkie [73@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:59:17 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:21 -!- bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:59:35 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.39] has joined #scheme 03:01:17 -!- Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 03:06:14 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:15 lol 03:12:32 arcfide: i took the flying tour and ran away :D 03:12:39 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-78-235.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 03:14:46 annodomini [~lambda@129.170.131.209] has joined #scheme 03:14:46 -!- annodomini [~lambda@129.170.131.209] has quit [Changing host] 03:14:46 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 03:15:48 kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:17:34 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 03:19:07 rstandy` [~rastandy@net-93-144-21-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 03:25:36 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-21-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 03:25:50 I don't use "formal theorem provers." I use my fists. 03:28:41 Bruce Schneir? Is that you? 03:44:45 I thought it was don knuth 03:52:40 timj_ [~timj@e176223100.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:13 -!- arrummzen [~arrummzen@ip68-5-249-130.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:54:42 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:49 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176218166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:05:30 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 04:09:36 arrummzen [~arrummzen@ip68-5-249-130.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 04:10:18 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 04:10:22 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:10:23 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@ip68-0-123-16.tu.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 04:19:59 derrida: Haha, to what did you run? 04:21:24 annodomini [~lambda@129.170.131.249] has joined #scheme 04:21:24 -!- annodomini [~lambda@129.170.131.249] has quit [Changing host] 04:21:24 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 04:25:55 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 04:32:36 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 04:32:39 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:33:35 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:35:12 -!- kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:37:59 josephholsten [~josephhol@ip68-0-123-16.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 04:40:37 -!- rstandy` [~rastandy@net-93-144-21-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:46:42 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:49:28 kniu [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:54:29 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:00:52 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-28-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:03:17 elderK [~elderK@125-236-161-142.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:03:17 -!- elderK [~elderK@125-236-161-142.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Changing host] 05:03:17 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 05:03:35 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable049.173-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:11:35 anyone here? 05:11:50 hi drwho 05:11:55 hey 05:12:10 sup? 05:12:23 I was wondering about the characters I can use in my scheme source files for notes? 05:12:36 sorry didn't mean to add the ? 05:12:40 With which implementation? 05:12:45 GUILE 05:13:16 YOU DON'T NEED TO SHOUT IT! :-) 05:13:29 also is that a good one or is there another one you guys can suggest to me? 05:13:31 lol 05:14:33 It's not a particularly good one. I tend to point people at PLT Scheme, due to its friendly development environment and extensive documentation. 05:15:48 I'll try that one then 05:16:16 Guile's latest betas support Unicode, I believe. Those betas are much improved over the current stable version, but I'd still recommend PLT. 05:19:42 I guess I have to use drscheme also to use plt? 05:20:15 You don't have to, but it's awfully nice. 05:20:27 drwho, I think PLT is the name of the package 05:20:32 it comes with mzscheme 05:20:38 which is its scheme interpreter 05:20:53 I think drscheme is just some nice GUI for it 05:21:07 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 05:21:10 I see 05:21:26 you can, for example, download only mzscheme 05:21:28 without drscheme 05:23:44 I'm not exactly sure why you would, unless you were an experienced Emacs user. Otherwise, when in Rome, do as the Romans. 05:24:00 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:24:35 well I was thinking use a text editor, do the programs procedures in there and save it as a scm and then send it to the interpreter 05:24:55 which is what I do. 05:25:11 I use :!mzscheme -f 05:25:15 in vim 05:25:21 I just don't know how to put notes in the source code for this language 05:25:23 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 05:25:29 by notes you mean comments? 05:25:31 comments? 05:25:33 yes 05:25:34 ; is the prefix 05:25:39 ah ok 05:25:39 I do that to. I edit a file in DrScheme, save it in a file, and then send it to the interpreter by clicking "Run". 05:25:50 everything after a ';' in the same line of it 05:25:50 is a comment. 05:25:57 er, "edit a buffer" 05:26:09 I am still learning the language (along with haskell) and would to make comments to tell myself what this does and that 05:26:45 yes, being able to put comments in code is pretty important :) 05:26:48 because right now I am in differential equations and linear algebra and would like to use what I learn and make programs for mathematical modeling or whatever comes to mind 05:27:23 jlongster [~user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:37:32 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:37:52 it seems mzscheme doesn't like the way I am defining functions 05:42:23 how are you doing it? 05:42:39 *aspect* suspect some guile shenanigans 05:46:54 elderK [~elderK@125-236-161-142.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:46:54 -!- elderK [~elderK@125-236-161-142.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Changing host] 05:46:54 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 05:48:41 (define multi (lambda x (* x x))) 05:49:48 that should be (lambda (x) (* x x)) 05:50:12 oh wait it is sorry forgot the (x) 05:50:22 it's possibly more idiomatic to write it: (define (multi x) (* x x)) 05:50:38 that is true 05:50:40 but that syntax is fine .. what is mzscheme's complaint? 05:51:23 ah I think its not my source 05:51:28 its my file 05:51:36 after type mzscheme -t first.scm 05:51:38 default-load-handler: expected a `module' declaration for `first', found: something else in: # 05:51:46 drwho, 05:51:49 try mzscheme -f first.scm 05:52:16 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:52:35 ah I did that and works fine 05:52:37 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:52:45 drwho: Start your file with a line saying: #lang scheme 05:52:55 and then run it as: mzscheme first.scm 05:53:19 This will avoid some problems that you can run into with the `-f' flag. 05:53:26 ah okay that's what I was looking for 05:53:27 a print out 05:53:30 thanks 05:53:36 What problems, eli? 05:53:39 Curious :) 05:54:13 drwho: If you do that, then one thing to note is that you don't need to explicitly print stuff -- it will print all values from expressions that are not definitions. 05:54:41 elderK: Trying to run a file that has (+ 1 foo) will lead to a syntax error instead of a runtime error. 05:55:01 Trying to do what many newbies try: (define x (+ x 1)) will not work. 05:55:33 And a number of other minor-but-possibly-confusing repl-isms. 05:56:48 I guess my function definitions using lambda is what they call syntactic sugar 05:57:07 -!- KatieHuber is now known as KatieHuber|away 05:57:20 the other way around, actually 05:58:13 aye. 05:58:20 :P same as if you wrote let the long way. 05:58:23 or cond, or case... 05:58:24 :) 05:58:38 or do :D 05:58:57 I see 05:59:14 now to figure out how to define a integral and derivative 05:59:18 heh 05:59:19 annodomini [~lambda@129.170.131.239] has joined #scheme 05:59:19 -!- annodomini [~lambda@129.170.131.239] has quit [Changing host] 05:59:19 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 05:59:55 happy hackin' 06:00:02 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:08 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: elderK] 06:02:15 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 06:02:41 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 06:14:37 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 06:15:30 Time for me to do a lil' hackin' then some study. 06:15:31 :) 06:16:35 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #scheme 06:19:31 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.128.44] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:36:22 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:54:32 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:56:26 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@router1.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:00:50 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:00:50 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:01:09 -!- rrm3 [~rrm3@rrm3.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:01:41 -!- KatieHuber|away is now known as KatieHuber 07:02:13 rrm3_ [~rrm3@rrm3.org] has joined #scheme 07:05:09 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has joined #scheme 07:08:42 -!- adiabatic [~adiabatic@dsl-206-55-130-248.tstonramp.com] has quit [Quit: Rockin music will set you free.] 07:10:06 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:12:57 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:22:17 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:23 hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:22:34 -!- jlongster [~user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:26:29 -!- hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:48 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 07:33:18 hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:35:35 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:24 -!- hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:16 nareshov [~user@59.162.86.164] has joined #scheme 07:41:37 -!- nareshov [~user@59.162.86.164] has quit [Changing host] 07:41:38 nareshov [~user@unaffiliated/nareshov] has joined #scheme 07:41:43 thank you, C-Keen and metasyntax 07:42:43 hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:46:22 wingo [~wingo@81.38.185.122] has joined #scheme 07:49:04 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:54:05 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:33 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 08:06:01 -!- hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:10:04 -!- wingo [~wingo@81.38.185.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:18:17 mreggen [~mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 08:24:22 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #scheme 08:25:54 -!- pjb` [~t@95.124.37.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:17 -!- hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:24 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:42:59 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:48:43 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:40 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 08:58:04 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #scheme 09:06:50 -!- hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:11:33 gerard [~gerard@cs181141133.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 09:14:47 gerard pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96403 09:15:21 does anyone know why scheme thinks that I call derive with just one argument= 09:15:22 ? 09:16:17 your recursive calls when (prod? x) is true 09:16:42 seem to have a few () in the wrong places 09:18:06 aspect: thanks, I'll look into that, but the error message sure seems missleading :P 09:18:18 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 09:19:00 it's correct, but you're calling deriv from several places 09:19:23 ah, ok 09:19:26 I get it now 09:19:33 thanks 09:20:34 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 09:21:18 any suggestion on a scheme with a better scheme interpreter? I'm using mit because I've been going through the sicp, but it seems to have limited editing 09:23:27 drscheme is pretty popular -- it has a nice ide if you're into that 09:23:51 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 09:24:12 masm [~masm@bl7-37-81.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:24:47 aspect: I'm more of a vi user :P 09:25:26 I'd like something I can run on my box over ssh without launching X windows 09:26:21 basicaly mit + gnu readline would be enough for me 09:26:52 try rlwrap maybe? 09:27:20 most heavy schemers are emacs users so the repl is a pretty neglected area in a lot of implementations 09:27:53 yep, that seems to be the case :P 09:28:18 I liked gambit for its repl, but it's lacking in other respects. as far as implementation quality goes I think MIT is up there 09:28:19 gerard: rlwrap will ease your pain with a minimum of fuzz 09:28:50 C-Keen: yep, it seems quite an interesting tool 09:28:58 I'll see what can I do with it 09:31:46 I'm just trying it, this tool is a killer app for me :P 09:33:25 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #scheme 09:38:07 gerard: has been for me too 09:39:16 gerard : MIT has Edwin (.. but perhaps you've already tried that ?) 09:39:38 (and you can run Edwin in a terminal) 09:41:05 ski: isn't it some sort of emacs-like editor? 09:41:15 it is 09:41:44 I usually edit using vim, the stuff I wanted was just this readline sort of editing 09:42:01 i see 09:42:31 I just started with scheme and lisp in general, so I need a fast way to test trivial one-liners 09:42:58 (just thought i'd mention it, since one can use that to edit and test/run, instead of using the interactor directly) 09:43:12 rlwrap your scheme :) 09:43:19 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 09:43:32 sky: I guess in the long run I should learn some emacs, but it's hard to change habits :P 09:44:32 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 09:48:41 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:00:04 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-170-52.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 10:01:17 -!- PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055018120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:01:34 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:01:48 -!- hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:39 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-141-157-183-82.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 10:02:51 PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055171164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:03:19 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #scheme 10:03:20 gerard not sure what you were asking but didn you try mzscheme? 10:04:02 ie. 'mzscheme -il readline' 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:48 csmrfx: right now I'm happy with rlwrap + mit 10:11:27 -!- ebering [~ebering@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has left #scheme 10:11:29 gerard whats that offer, if you dont mind me asking? 10:12:15 csmrfx: rlwrap wraps readline on the mit-scheme repl 10:13:03 hm I just dont get the 'wraps readline' bit 10:13:12 guess I never had that prob 10:13:56 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 10:17:35 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:22:26 I can't believe I'm actually making progress on a proof with ACL2. I have to admit, It's a lot more enjoyable than PVS. 10:23:12 Now, I should really rewrite all of ACL2 into Scheme! :-) 10:24:13 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:10 -!- hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:27 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #scheme 10:28:09 *ski* has played a bit with Agda, for proofs 10:33:36 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: irl] 10:34:11 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 10:34:48 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:36:15 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 10:39:27 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:12 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@ppp-70-246-129-70.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #scheme 10:40:30 offby1 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[~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 18:58:54 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:09:37 -!- luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 19:11:25 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:52 rudybot: can scheme help us keep the Things That Should Not Be from returning and claiming their rightful place as our masters? 19:11:52 elly: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 19:14:16 minion: things that should not be? 19:14:19 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 19:14:45 rudybot: quote 19:14:45 mejja: Let's make an emacs machine that implements elisp. 19:14:47 none of our bots are helpful 19:15:40 doelie [~tom@cust-135-5-109-94.dyn.as47377.net] has joined #scheme 19:19:17 hi! 19:19:40 could someone explain me what BOXES are used for? (those of Gambit scheme) 19:20:05 boxing is normally a kind of neutral type for typed languages 19:20:14 I don't see its use in scheme 19:20:47 you can mutate boxes and pass them around 19:20:59 set! only lets you mutate local variables 19:22:01 A box is a first class location. Think of it as a lambda closing over a fresh binding. 19:22:34 -!- wingo [~wingo@81.38.185.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:23:38 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 19:24:25 understood 19:24:31 it was easy actually 19:24:49 thanks jonrafkind, chandler :) 19:25:57 incubot: drain you of your sanity 19:26:00 so... she doesn't wish her sink would drain more quickly? 19:26:19 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:27:57 incubot: A woman's place is in the kitchen, right? 19:28:00 i admit to being in more of the 'kitchen sink' camp when it comes to language design. 19:32:40 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 19:35:37 mickn [~mickn@69-196-129-60.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 19:35:56 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:38:07 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 19:41:24 snorble 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92AAABJZ7 is now known as shardz 22:20:06 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.170.97.189] has joined #scheme 22:22:58 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-234-175.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:42 -!- scheibo [~scheibo@129-97-249-119.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:26:42 -!- Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:29:51 foof [~user@FL1-118-110-11-244.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 22:30:04 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 22:30:47 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:17 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-68-179.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:33:00 rgrau [~user@18.Red-88-3-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:44:35 _pr0t0type_ [~864a64d2@gateway/web/freenode/x-ezessmcatcjafgzw] has joined #scheme 22:45:49 <_pr0t0type_> Hello everyone. I'm reading the little schemer, and I'm having difficulty understanding what an L-expression is, as opposed to an S-expression. I cannot find anything online either. Can anyone explain the recursive definition to me please? 22:46:47 -!- nijm [~Nick@94-195-227-153.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:00 jcowan [~jcowan@nat/google/x-jdxldretzulhporw] has joined #scheme 22:48:52 *jcowan* unvanishes 22:50:29 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.121] has joined #scheme 22:51:13 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:51:29 ! 22:51:41 *elly* hides behind minion 22:51:45 minion: chant 22:51:45 MORE SECURE 22:51:50 yay! I am more secure 22:53:03 greetings sir cowan. 22:53:32 No knight nor dominie nor master am I, but plain John of the Big Apple. 23:01:24 Mornin'. 23:04:22 'lo. 23:06:33 Hey ho. 23:07:13 Ramones? 23:09:01 Not on purpose, no. 23:09:21 Kermit the Pimp? 23:09:35 Don't know him. 23:10:09 Actually, that doesn't work, the normal Kermit says "hi ho," so "ho" is already in there. 23:10:24 Ho ho. 23:11:13 -!- m811 [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:11:17 I'm going to try to write down the semantics of ordinary REPLs soon. 23:11:27 _pr0t0type_: "A more recent variant is I-expressions, which use indentation to indicate parentheses implicitly, and are thus in some ways intermediate between S-expressions and M-expressions. I-expressions were introduced in Scheme Request For Implementation 49 as an auxiliary syntax for Scheme, but they have not been widely adopted." 23:11:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression 23:11:49 Oh. 23:12:00 My other font made 'I' look like 'L'. 23:12:04 m811 [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 23:13:10 "Not been widely adopted". There's a euphemism. 23:13:30 hahaha 23:14:12 foof: I sincerely hope that the WG1 membership is *not* representative of the Scheme community. 23:14:30 Otherwise we will get everything passed only by voting, and we will never get to that 90% bar. 23:15:50 <_pr0t0type_> shardz: thanks, that link is useful. Although, I really want to understand L-expressions instead. I'll see what I discover from these M-expressions/I-expressions. 23:17:50 Sorry I can't help you more, I'm only just starting out with Scheme myself. 23:17:59 jcowan: Divide the users up by implementation. 1-3 PLT, 1-3 Chicken, 1 Gambit, 1 MIT Scheme, 1 Chez... what are we missing? 23:18:46 2 Chibi. 23:19:42 foof: hello, I have question about chibi's sexp_make_cpointer :) 23:19:46 No Bigloo. Wasn't there a Guile user? 23:20:00 tizoc: It's a rather mysterious function. 23:20:25 foof: ok, to me the mystery lies in type_id, how does it work? 23:20:46 well, that, and also the 'parent' parameter 23:22:49 Every type (including user-defined types) gets a unique integer, which is the type_id. If you just want a generic pointer you can use SEXP_CPOINTER for type_id. 23:23:23 ok, that works 23:24:27 foof: another one, I have sexp_destroy_context, isn't there a sexp_destroy_env? (I may have many short-lived envs that share the same context) 23:24:37 The parent pointer is just an extra slot for the GC to trace, it doesn't actually have to be a parent-like relationship. Usually you want to use it when returning a nested struct field, since if the enclosing struct is GCed the inner struct would be invalidated. 23:24:59 thanks, thats what I guessed for parent 23:25:04 If that's not the case, just use SEXP_FALSE. 23:25:30 You generally don't need to manually destroy anything - that's what the GC is for. 23:26:25 sexp_destroy_context is special - it actually cleans up everything, runs all finalizers, and frees the context's heap itself. 23:27:01 how does the GC know that I'm not referencing an env anymore from C? (maybe I'm misunderstanding and misusing envs) 23:27:44 That's what sexp_gc_var's are for (that needs to be documented better). 23:28:37 yeah, I saw a bunch of those when reading the code 23:28:40 But if you're maintaining a pool of env's, it may be easier to maintain them in a global vector on the Scheme side. 23:29:51 Any global value in the default Scheme env (or any module env) will act as a GC root. 23:31:01 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-240.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:31:56 foof: Anyhow, I don't think the implementations mean anything. 23:32:09 ok, in my case the lifespan o an env is well defined - it should be created and destroyed at the begining and end of a C function, running some user-provided code in between (it is assumed that existing bindings aren't going to be mutated) 23:32:20 "? Sure. Use it all the time. Great that it's available on almost every Scheme. Put it in the standard? OVER MY DEAD BODY!!!" 23:32:27 You can also just compile Chibi with Boehm GC, then memory management is easier from the C side. 23:32:47 That's the part I can't deal with. 23:33:51 Checkie [8444@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 23:34:38 jcowan: That's why I'm not sure on the percentages. We have 21 members, so for a 75% approval rating it's only cancelled if 6 people vote against it. 23:34:40 foof: thanks 23:35:38 tizoc: sexp_gc_var1(env); sexp_gc_preserve1(ctx, env); ...code using env... sexp_gc_release1(ctx); 23:36:30 foof: You are conflating the committee process (which is whatever we want it to be) with the ratification process. Dozens or hundreds of people may vote on ratification, and if 15% of them reject it, we fall down and go boom. 23:36:36 Minority rule, in short. 23:37:01 -!- doelie [~tom@cust-135-5-109-94.dyn.as47377.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:38:32 jcowan: I was talking about individual features. For a proposal to go through with 85% approval, it takes 4 people to vote the proposal down. 23:40:03 Now, we can loosen our own approval process on individual features, but that makes it easier to include features that a potential electorate would dislike and vote against. 23:41:27 Some people would vote no against thing 1 if just a single feature they disagree with gets in. Most would probably be a little bit more forgiving, but if we make it too easy to accumulate features we're going to get a lot of garbage that annoys people. 23:42:00 -!- rgrau [~user@18.Red-88-3-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:51 Now, despite Brian Harvey's claims that I was biased in the sample vote, he pegged me for the wrong sample member - I saw myself if anything as member D. I think R5RS is pretty damn good and there's not a lot we need to change. 23:45:10 Do additions count as changes? 23:45:15 Yes. 23:46:03 On the other hand I want to include a lot more in WG2. 23:49:33 -!- _pr0t0type_ [~864a64d2@gateway/web/freenode/x-ezessmcatcjafgzw] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:50:08 I would vote SRFI-9 > R5RS, though, I'm just not sure on any extensions. 23:51:00 Well, there are only two: single inheritance and optional name generation. 23:52:13 (In SRFI-99 syntactic, that is) 23:52:24 Procedural API, introspection, opaque records, sealed records... 23:54:05 Non-generational records. 23:54:05 Yeah, yeah. I haven't seen anyone asking for procedural APIs, only people arguing against them and people saying there may not be a valid argument against them. 23:54:41 SRFI-9 is cleverly ambiguous about whether its records are generative or non-generative. 23:55:05 I don't think name generation is a particularly good idea. At the very least, the concept should probably be provided by some other syntactic tool. 23:55:16 SRFI-9 explicitly says its generative. 23:55:39 I know it does, but in fact a non-generative implementation like Chicken's is conformant. 23:55:49 If you're going to include SRFI-9 style records, pretty please with a cherry on top explicity specify that it *must* be properly hygienic, unlike the SRFI-9 reference implementation. 23:56:19 I would. What about the reference implementation is non-hygienic? 23:56:57 It uses symbols at runtime for field names, which means that there are cases where two identifiers with different marks collide at runtime. 23:57:47 Under what circumstances can that actually happen, given that SRFI-9 limits define-record-type to the top level only? 23:58:09 jcowan: Earlier people were arguing that instead of SRFI-9 we should have a low-level mechanism for creating record types on which something like SRFI-9 could be built. 23:58:12 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-156-113.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 23:58:20 The top level doesn't have anything to do with it, unless (like Chicken) you believe that `define' at the top level is not a binding form. 23:58:59 Is the `foo' in (define-syntax bar (syntax-rules () (begin (define foo 1) (define-record-type ...)))) an introduced name? 23:59:22 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-37-81.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:59:49 That depends on whether you believe that define-record-type is a definition or not.