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timeout: 252 seconds] 07:02:17 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 07:07:01 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08:31 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:10:25 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 07:12:58 adu_ [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-240.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 07:13:13 -!- adu_ [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-240.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:14:42 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:19:09 -!- jengle [~9598170f@gateway/web/freenode/x-nivseqxtyvqkxzso] has left #scheme 07:19:58 "Note that this is the external representation of a vector, not an expression evaluating to a vector. Like list constants, vector constants must be quoted" 07:20:08 why would vector constants not be self-evaluating ? 07:24:14 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:24:18 -!- ginet [~noam@188.89.193.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:24:50 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:26:41 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 07:28:09 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:04 What does "this" refer to? 07:31:36 the #(a b c) notation 07:32:22 Lists aren't self-evaluating either, in that sense 07:32:40 When appearing in code (+ 1 2) is an expression; '(+ 1 2) is a list 07:32:42 I can understand why lists aren't. 07:34:09 rudybot: eval `#(1 ,(+ 1 1)) 07:34:11 Jafet: your sandbox is ready 07:34:12 Jafet: ; Value: #(1 2) 07:34:40 and it seems i can type #(a b c) at the repl in mit-scheme and mzscheme, and it evals to that vector 07:34:49 rudybot: eval #(1 2) 07:34:50 cmatei: your sandbox is ready 07:34:50 cmatei: ; Value: #(1 2) 07:43:20 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:44:23 scandalous 07:48:17 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 07:49:06 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:52:16 bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-193-55.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 07:53:39 *Daemmerung* is properly scandalized 07:53:45 good 07:53:49 let that be a lesson &c. 07:54:09 Decent, god-fearing Schemes would never allow such a thing 07:55:37 well, the mit-scheme manual quotes the report, yet it allows it. so i'm properly confused. 08:01:12 Should it not be allowed? 08:02:03 cmatei: The report is leaving the door slightly open to implementations that would want to use a different semantics for #(...) expressions. (I don't think I've seen any implementation use that though.) 08:03:21 mit-scheme even allows () 08:03:39 yes, i asked that question too :-) 08:04:02 Jafet: That *used* to be pretty common, but many schemes have moved away from it. 08:06:01 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 08:06:18 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08:21 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 08:13:06 rudybot: eval (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (symbol? (vector-ref #(a b) 0))) 08:13:06 Daemmerung: your r5rs sandbox is ready 08:13:07 Daemmerung: ; Value: #t 08:13:13 Well, golly. 08:16:27 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:18:02 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-147.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18:17 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 08:35:14 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:38:31 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.167] has joined #scheme 08:39:50 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:46:05 Sands [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #scheme 08:48:54 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:49:10 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-46-82-253-205-51.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:15:38 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 09:39:00 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed 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[~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 17:03:35 schemer999 [~schemer99@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:04:08 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:10:15 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #scheme 17:32:36 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-173.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:32:54 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-117.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:34:52 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:35:04 Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 17:46:05 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:19 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 17:50:10 -!- elly [~elly@unaffiliated/elly] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:24:20 alvatar [~alvatar@75.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:46:31 minion: chant 18:46:31 MORE USENET 18:47:50 jewel_ [~jewel@41.30.229.244] has joined #scheme 18:52:48 xlat_ [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-cstootbvtsyoszpd] has joined #scheme 18:54:17 -!- xlat_ [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-cstootbvtsyoszpd] has quit [Client Quit] 19:07:58 ginet [~noam@95.99.242.127] has joined #scheme 19:22:26 HEY ya ya ya 19:26:13 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:32:01 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 19:32:41 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@41.30.229.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:34:13 -!- kuribas [kristof@d54C4377F.access.telenet.be] has left #scheme 19:35:00 http://iwritethecode.blogspot.com/2009/12/parenthesis-hell-programming-language.html 19:35:02 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yzucvve 19:37:27 parens are so natural! 19:38:33 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:38:46 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 19:42:27 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 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22:19:58 I can give it a try 22:20:34 so 22:20:34 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.83] has joined #scheme 22:20:36 to me, it appears as a while loop :/ 22:20:39 let's have a look at the following code: 22:20:48 (+ 3 (call/cc (lambda (k) (k 4)))) 22:21:03 that returns 7, and the reason is roughly as follows: 22:21:29 whenever you use call/cc, the interpreter takes the entire state of your program, and replaces the call/cc expression with a 'hole' 22:21:40 so in this case, it will end up with (+ 3 ) 22:22:44 and then it produces something like a lambda: (lambda () (+ 3 )), which is your current continuation, and it hands that lambda to the thing you call/cc'd (so in this case, 'k' is '(lambda () (+ 3 ))' 22:23:17 however, it's a little bit more tricky than that: instead of just the expression you're in, the 'state' passed to call/cc is the _entire rest of the program execution_ 22:23:43 does this explanation make any sense so far? 22:23:49 yes. 22:24:19 well, that's more or less it :P 22:24:57 mike_ [~m@dslb-088-067-027-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 22:24:58 the reason that it is very powerful is this: let's suppose that I have a procedure whose job is to product all the elements of a list 22:25:25 -!- mike_ is now known as Guest79834 22:25:42 maybe you also like: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~boucherd/mslug/meetings/20041020/minutes-en.html 22:25:42 the obvious form of this prodecure is: (define (prod l) (foldl * 1 l)) 22:25:44 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/fj4af 22:26:02 however, there's a problem: what if 0 appears somewhere in the middle of 'l'? 22:26:12 then we'll keep multiplying after the result can't possibly change, so that's a bit silly 22:26:18 we can rewrite it ourselves: 22:26:46 kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:27:17 (define (prod l) (cond ((null? l) 1) ((= (car l) 0) 0) (else (* (car l) (prod (cdr l)))))) 22:28:03 however, if we hit a 0, we're still going to have to return back up all those call frames, which could still take quite a while (let's pretend there's no tail-call optimization for pedagogical purposes) 22:29:52 so we can make another optimization, by using a continuation: 22:30:00 (def (prod l a k) (cond ((null? l) (k a)) ((= (car l) 0) (k 0)) (else (prod (cdr l) (* a (car l)) k)))) 22:30:17 this version of prod accumulates the value into a, and calls k with the value as soon as it knows what it is 22:30:30 so we use it like: (call/cc (lambda (k) (prod l 1 k))) 22:30:55 and what happens is: either we reach the end of the list (the null? l case) and replace the hole with the product of the list, or we reach a 0 and replace the hole with 0 22:30:59 does that make sense? 22:31:30 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:49 elly, you lost me on the last part here :( 22:32:55 where? 22:33:08 I have to read it carefully 22:33:12 yeah 22:33:16 I have skimmed it too much 22:33:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:33:29 call/cc is a strange thing to wrap your head around for the first time 22:33:36 I know 22:34:38 I need to relocate myself, but I'll be back in half an hour or so and I can try to answer more questions then 22:34:50 failing that, this place is full of smart people, so :P 22:34:51 can you explain the reason for having call/cc in one sentence. 22:35:13 hrm 22:35:33 "When you need to jump back to an earlier point in the program's execution."? 22:35:37 so that you can implement different control flows on top of it 22:36:12 so it basically is 'a complex control structure for ...' 22:36:31 ..back and forth in time? 22:36:35 morphir: you can do basically any complex control structure with it easily. 22:38:08 the original justification was doing complex control flows with it for AI purposes 22:38:11 a control structure for jumping back in time? 22:38:36 Adamant: that is a useful fact. 22:39:50 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A904DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:40:41 morphir: one way to look at it is jumping back "in time" 22:41:04 the other is to look at it as saving certain amounts of state 22:41:29 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:43:14 different control structures have to save different amounts of state to work. call/cc has to save a lot of state. 22:43:56 so its imperativ? 22:44:48 when you say state, you mean state as in set! ? 22:45:04 I mean state as is previous saved stuff, not necessarily mutated. 22:45:08 *as in 22:45:09 is it an I/O process? 22:47:08 elly: thanks for the explaination there though. I understand the first and simple example 22:47:29 the link i previously posted includes howto implement call/cc and i have in my notes that it helped me a lot to understand call/cc 22:48:39 note the links to the videos of the presentation 22:49:18 (but i guess it heavily depends on your learning style, wether it is of help) 22:50:11 karme: I can check it out, thanks 22:51:11 -!- dmoerner [~dmr@90-84.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:19 morphir: and i also had to play around with it 22:52:29 -!- uman [~uman@unaffiliated/uman] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:52:34 I have just grasped closures and higher-order functions, so macros and call/cc 22:53:01 are sitting around waiting for my brain to allocate more space 22:53:04 dmoerner [~dmr@90-84.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 23:05:11 -!- Guest79834 [~m@dslb-088-067-027-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:07:13 -!- Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh 23:13:46 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-236-233-23.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:14:14 ,(+ 1 2) 23:14:46 talking about call/cc - what should the result of (let ((ten 10)) (+ ten (call/cc (lambda(x) (set! ten 11) (x ten))) ten)) be? 23:15:43 either 21 or 22 23:15:55 It could be 31, 32, or 33, although CWCC is a red herring here; the same is true of (let ((ten 10)) (+ ten (begin (set! ten 11) ten) ten)). 23:16:09 Reviewing that last exchange, I went back to AIM-349, and for the bignumth time wished I had it in plain text. Behold http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Scheme:_An_Interpreter_for_Extended_Lambda_Calculus - all glory to the wikitrolls who entered and proofread this. 23:16:11 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yabjcc8 23:16:19 sorry, I think I misread something 23:16:36 sloyd: you missed one 23:17:15 Riastradh: i am just reading that r5rs section about order again ... 23:17:49 The order in which the subexpressions of a combination are evaluated is unspecified, but there must be some sequential order for any particular combination at any particular time. 23:18:32 Riastradh: don't get it 23:19:02 The implementation may permute the order as it wishes, but it may not interleave the evaluation of two subexpressions. 23:19:22 For example, (let ((x 0)) (list (begin (set! x 1) x) (begin (set! x 2) x))) always yields (1 2). 23:19:29 Riastradh: ok - the note in r5rs is quite ok, too 23:19:57 i think i still have some code not taking care of that 23:22:13 kglovern [~kglovern@129-97-159-136.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 23:29:35 jengle [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-afdlrvdbnnrwidbu] has joined #scheme 23:31:26 guile, mzscheme, scm return 32, gauche returns 33 23:32:20 (at least at the time i did run them ;-) 23:32:57 FunkyDrummer [~RageOfTho@users-55-182.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:36:03 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 23:36:50 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-117.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:41:27 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5A4DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:43:14 Left-to-right evaluation is documented in mzscheme: 23:45:10 sloyd: thanks! - was just looking for such info 23:47:58 karme: that presentation was very good at explaining call/cc, thank you 23:48:28 call/cc turns the continuation into a function 23:48:29 which, when called, causes that suspended 23:48:31 computation to resume 23:48:51 that is basically it 23:52:36 davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:53:31 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-151-203-30-77.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 23:59:37 -!- jengle [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-afdlrvdbnnrwidbu] has quit [Quit: Page closed]