00:00:36 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:06 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 00:09:03 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 00:13:30 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 00:15:12 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:19:51 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:20:19 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:21:52 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:25:26 I'm such a doofus. I thought I found a memory leak in PLT, but DrScheme's memory usage was actually caused by the output of my test case in the interaction window. 00:29:08 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 00:29:30 I tried paredit a couple of time. Could not dig it. I've just learned to weild the primitive key combos. I only have a few things in my .emacs like skeleton pair for "", ( insert-parentheses, ) move-pase-close-and-reindent. 00:29:54 Other non-sexp related stuff like zap-to come in handy too 00:34:46 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:36:25 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:42:53 arcfide [arcfide@140-182-146-241.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 00:45:17 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:49:03 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 00:51:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 00:55:04 QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 00:55:54 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:57:05 -!- devslashnull [~nope@202.3.37.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:59:41 saccade_ [~saccade@c-24-61-43-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:00:22 Phew, so much reading! 01:00:32 I'm not particularly skilled with type theory.... :-/ 01:01:58 devslashnull [~nope@202.3.37.206] has joined #scheme 01:05:12 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:06:35 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:08:27 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:09:52 arcfide: what are you looking at in particular? 01:10:03 untouchable [untouchabl@dhcp-129-64-166-29.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 01:10:29 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 01:11:30 -!- rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:14:18 Len_ [~Len@87.70.252.108] has joined #scheme 01:16:16 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:19 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:16:33 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:22 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:25:11 sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-151-203-30-77.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:50 dansa [dbastos@dhcp-077-250-091-080.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 01:26:03 was scheme the first language to implement closures? 01:26:37 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:08 -!- dansa is now known as kang`r`us 01:27:20 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:27:28 i'm now known as kang`r`us :) 01:31:16 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 01:34:21 kang`r`us, lisp came before scheme 01:34:46 but did it implement closure right away? 01:34:53 And which pre-Scheme Lisp implemented lexical closures? 01:34:58 (er, not that "pre-Scheme") 01:35:15 I thought scheme was originally just lisp + lexical closures 01:35:23 so I guess none :p 01:35:47 is there a non-lexical closure? 01:35:58 dynamic scope 01:36:06 what's the difference? 01:36:33 ha... its slightly complicated if you havent learned it before 01:36:43 i haven't learned it before :) 01:37:13 lexical means the value of a variable is frozen when the closure is created 01:37:24 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 01:37:32 jonrafkind: This word, it does not mean what you think it means. 01:37:34 in dynamic scope, the value of the variable is whatever the latest bindingi of that variable is 01:37:42 rudybot: eval (let ((x 1)) (set! x 2) x) 01:37:46 chandler: error: with-limit: out of time 01:37:50 i was simplifying it for him............ 01:37:55 Wow. Complicated expression there. 01:37:56 rudybot: eval (let ((x 1)) (set! x 2) x) 01:37:59 chandler: your scheme sandbox is ready 01:37:59 chandler: ; Value: 2 01:38:10 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #scheme 01:38:12 you dont teach algebra by starting with calculus 01:38:13 jonrafkind: I think you simplified it all the way to "wrong". 01:38:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:32 just take out set! and continue with the lesson 01:38:59 The difference between lexical and dynamic has nothing to do with *values*, and everything to do with *bindings*. 01:39:06 -!- mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-eygoscrquwissueg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:39:16 jonrafkind: i would teach algebra by starting with calculus actually :) 01:39:27 mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-qoxqkhcrbuwfjsmi] has joined #scheme 01:39:29 hehe, actually i said the same thing to another guy today too :p 01:39:31 but in this context, i do suppose you are right with the approach :) 01:39:34 so bad analogy 01:39:40 hehe 01:39:47 every man has the right to make up bad analogies 01:40:05 chandler: would you give us a more concrete explanation perhaps? 01:40:14 so, it has to do with bindings; okay 01:40:26 binding meaning the attachment of a value to a symbol? 01:40:36 (I wouldn't start anything with calculus, except if it was a constructivist calculus.) 01:41:07 constructivism is always preferable, huh? but a man uses everything he can get 01:41:28 if no constructivism is available, he goes with contradictions and whatnot 01:41:56 kang`r`us: Yes. Lexical scope means that the assocation between a name and the binding is fixed at compile time. A use of a variable always refers to the same binding, no matter what the call site is. 01:42:32 chandler: so, a lexical scope avoid any variable confusion at run-time, right? 01:42:40 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:43:25 Yes. In fact, there's no need to keep the names of the variables around at runtime, since any uses of variables have been associated with bindings at compile-time. 01:44:29 hm; that's right... a closure actually deals with fixed values? not really, right? because i could let acc '() and then fill it up with set! inside the closure, right? so, hm... i guess it turns out that the name acc doesn't matter, but the value can be changed indeed 01:45:00 It doesn't deal with fixed values; note that I referred to bindings, not values, for this reason. 01:45:07 so variables-of-closures are like... unnamed variables at run-time; but they do work as expected :) 01:45:13 right right; 01:45:48 you can write your code as if they were just regular variables; but in reality, they have no name at run-time; there is no chance of any clash whatsoever; if it's a lexical closure, right? 01:46:16 In lexical scope, the use of `x' in (let ((x 1)) (lambda () x)) always refers to the same binding - the one established by the outer `let'. 01:46:40 This association can be determined before the program is even run. 01:47:02 By contrast, in dynamic scope, the use of `x' refers to whatever binding of `x' is closest in the call stack. 01:47:36 oh... i see; that's an easy distinction to remember 01:48:11 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 01:48:29 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:19 so in dynamic scope, if the variable x was later changed (to, say, 2) somewhere down the let statement, and then the lambda was called 01:49:23 it would return 2? 01:49:30 but in lexical scope it would return 1? 01:49:50 I'm not sure what you mean by "later changed". 01:50:27 (let ((x 1) (f (lambda () x)) (begin (set! x 2) (f)) 01:50:28 This doesn't have to do with the mutability of bindings, but rather with how identifiers are associated with bindings. 01:50:52 rudybot: eval (let ((x 1)) (let ((f (lambda () x))) (set! x 2) (f))) 01:50:53 chandler: ; Value: 2 01:51:00 awesome :) 01:51:11 but that's lexical scope 01:51:16 how about... elisp for the test? :) 01:51:26 elisp would do the same thing on the corresponding test. 01:51:49 rudybot: eval (define funcall (lambda (f . args) (apply f args))) 01:52:08 rudybot: eval (let ((x 1)) (let ((f (lambda () x))) (let ((x 2)) (funcall f)))) 01:52:09 chandler: ; Value: 1 01:52:10 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 01:52:17 If you evaluate that last expression in elisp, you'll get 2. 01:52:30 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:46 lexical scope does have to behave in some way different from dynamic scope. right? 01:52:55 where does the difference come into play? 01:53:09 I just gave an example. 01:53:50 In lexical scope, the use of `x' in the function bound to `f' always refers to the immediately lexically enclosing binding of `x', regardless of what `x' is bound to when that function is called. 01:54:11 -!- stazich [~stas@83-47-112.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [] 01:54:56 In dynamic scope, the use of `x' always refers to the binding most recently established when the function bound to `f' is called. 01:56:04 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-194-75.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:56:06 what if the function was returned as a value and then called in some entirely different place that also happens to have an x variable 01:56:13 in elisp, it would use that x variable? 01:56:17 That's correct. 01:56:37 i think... i'm beginning to understand 01:57:59 this means that... even while the functions run, they have to remember the names of their variables? 02:00:11 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:02:25 That's correct. 02:02:34 -!- mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-qoxqkhcrbuwfjsmi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:11:05 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:19 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 02:17:43 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 02:20:05 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:27:37 copumpkin: I am reading about foundational proof carrying code at the moment. 02:27:55 sounds fun :) 02:32:36 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:33:49 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 02:42:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:46:49 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:49:43 Another unofficial announcement: all those who applied for WG1 and WG2 have been accepted. 02:53:45 WG1 members: Alex Shinn, John Cowan, Aaron Hsu, Olin Shivers, Arthur Gleckler, Brian Harvey, Joe Marshall, Alexey Radul, Alaric Snell Pym, Jerry Sussman, Jakob Praher, David Rush, Patrick Durusau, Jeffrey Read, Bradley Lucier, Steve Ganz, Thomas Lord. 02:54:22 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 02:54:42 omg, /me has met one of those people in person! 02:54:48 -!- nutmegmagi [~swalters@pool-71-101-51-208.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:55:02 WG2 members: John Cowan (chair), Alex Shinn, Aaron Hsu, Olin Shivers, Doug Williams, Wayne Richards, Neil Van Dyke, Ben Weaver, Francois Rene Rideau, Emmanuel Medernach 02:56:04 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:56:20 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened`] 02:58:38 Excellent. 02:58:42 Congratulations, jcowan. 02:58:47 Congratulations, foof. 03:01:05 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:01:59 Thanks, gnomon. 03:02:08 copumpkin: So which one? 03:02:19 Alexey 03:02:37 met him at a haskell user group in boston a few months ago :) 03:02:46 *jcowan* nods. 03:07:37 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:51 gnomon: don't forget arcfide 03:16:07 hahah. 03:16:09 foof: No need. 03:16:22 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 03:17:14 arcfide: btw, (x *** y) is really just the 2D equivalent of (x ... y) 03:17:50 x can be any pattern, and the identifiers are accumulated in lists 03:18:20 Instead of x matching the elements of a list, it matches the heads of the subtrees in the path leading to y. 03:18:49 jcowan, so how did you get this gig? 03:19:22 The Steering Committee asked me to chair WG1, but I told them I would prefer to chair WG2. 03:20:05 You didn't even have to defeat anyone in gladiator combat? 03:20:17 Umm, no. 03:20:45 Today I thought I had become the de facto chair of the SC, but that's more because I know how to run a meeting on the phone and they don't. 03:20:48 foof pasted "tree matching examples" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94236 03:23:24 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:24:40 -!- automejja [~edwin@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:33 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:37:18 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 03:41:51 -!- kang`r`us [dbastos@dhcp-077-250-091-080.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:44:50 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:44:50 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-151-203-30-77.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:19 sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-151-203-30-77.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:46:35 munificent [~munificen@97.102.58.76] has joined #scheme 03:49:33 -!- arcfide [arcfide@140-182-146-241.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 03:55:55 nutmegmagi [~swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:57:35 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 04:02:01 -!- nutmegmagi [~swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:02:54 nutmegmagi [~swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:04:50 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:10:04 Hum. the R6RS mailing list seems very dead. 04:10:21 Did all the trolls about the next thing move to another list? 04:10:55 Nope. 04:11:13 The new WGs are about to launch. 04:11:48 As I can see. 04:11:53 Congrats. 04:13:10 I'm quite surprised that fare is in WG2, I don't remember him from Scheme related discussions. Rather CL oriented. But I may be wrong, and I think it's a good thing too. 04:16:41 -!- qwertycute [~j@137.186.34.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:17:30 The SC believes that having a modicum of non-Schemers is desirable, to avoid mental inbreeding. 04:17:45 Patrick Durusau from WG1 isn't a Scheme person either, but he's got a lot of experience writing standards. 04:17:54 I don't know him 04:18:22 He was the chief editor of the ODF document standard. 04:18:29 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 04:18:33 Open Document, yeah 04:20:48 qwertycute [~j@137.186.34.139] has joined #scheme 04:22:38 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:22:54 *eli* lafs 04:23:10 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-224-230.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:25:07 -!- munificent [~munificen@97.102.58.76] has quit [Quit: munificent] 04:26:12 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:29:33 -!- nutmegmagi [~swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:33:26 -!- davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:29 nutmegmagi [~swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:37:38 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:38:53 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 04:44:44 -!- nutmegmagi [~swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:47:49 nutmegmagi [~swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:49:37 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:51:30 -!- devslashnull [~nope@202.3.37.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:52:30 leppie|work [~52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-hcbtszxaqgvyrlql] has joined #scheme 04:57:39 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 04:58:17 devslashnull [~nope@202.3.37.206] has joined #scheme 04:58:52 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 04:59:46 -!- Checkie [8587@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:00:39 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #scheme 05:05:44 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:06:10 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:13:41 Hello. I was notified that members for the Scheme working groups have been chosen. I was out on business for a few weeks to do some research in Spain and I believe I missed the chance for application. Is there anything I may do to apply now? 05:15:00 No promises, but if you send in your application now, the SC may still consider it. 05:15:29 jcowan: is there a public listing of the members yet? 05:15:57 Only in the channel logs here. 05:16:07 (by me -- look back about 2 hours) 05:16:46 arggghh 05:16:56 *leppie|work* does it anyways... 05:18:21 jcowan: Hm, okay 05:18:31 nice, well most :) WG2 seems a bit skinny though... 05:18:51 I would have thought most interest would go in there 05:19:06 so many debatable topics! 05:19:24 Well, not enough people signed up to work on them. 05:19:35 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20:05 leppie|work, I imagine it would be a lot to commit to 05:20:18 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 05:20:23 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #scheme 05:21:28 I had hoped to get 10-15 people. 05:22:17 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:22:26 jcowan, where is the info for all of this stuff, anyways? Is there a website? Or is this via mailing list 05:24:08 scheme-reports.org is the official site. I'm an unofficial source because (qua chair) I've been attending regular SC meetings. 05:24:19 I don't control the site, or things would be updated faster. 05:24:30 ahh 05:24:49 Right now, it's a box under Olin Shivers's desk. Hopefully that won't always be true. 05:27:26 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:28:34 jcowan: May I PM you? 05:34:40 Sure. 05:39:32 Quadrescence: You may have problems PMing if you're not registered. 05:40:23 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 05:42:56 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 05:43:14 sphex_ [~nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:46:16 -!- sphex [~nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:47:26 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:48:58 -!- nutmegmagi [~swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:50:17 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 05:55:22 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-193-55.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:55:44 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #scheme 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tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:43:47 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:12 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@4.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:45:35 alvatar [~alvatar@98.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:51:44 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:51:44 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-194-75.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:49 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 12:58:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:53 masm [~masm@bl7-194-75.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 13:10:59 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 13:12:20 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 13:20:09 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:30:01 is it possible to destructively prepend an element to a list without using list-copy? 13:30:04 incubot: (let ((list '(1 2 3))) (set-cdr! list (list-copy list)) (set-car! list 0) list) 13:30:05 (0 1 2 3) 13:31:08 mije [~antoine@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 13:32:20 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 13:34:04 But why 13:36:01 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-194-75.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:42:17 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44:36 klutometis : you can't mutate an empty list .. 13:45:12 As soon as you start mutating things, you need to really, really, understand how lists are composed of cons cells. Or all is lost. 13:45:54 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-151-203-30-77.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 13:46:08 prepending is not destructive 13:46:47 It's destructive of whatever points to the head of the list, though 13:47:51 there's no such thing as "the head of the list". There are many lists and as many heads. 13:48:04 Each list has one head. 13:48:56 That's a matter of perspective, I reckon ;-) 13:49:29 Well... it's possible to mutate the reference to list head. This way it's possible to prepend to an '() 13:49:36 incubot: (let ((list (list 1 2 3))) (set-cdr! list (cons (car list) (cdr list))) (set-car! list 0) list) 13:49:36 (0 1 2 3) 13:49:52 you want to destructively prepend a list and keep the old one?! Why is that better than a simple cons? 13:49:58 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 13:49:58 masm [~masm@bl10-4-229.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 13:52:38 "destructively prepend"? 13:52:46 Gosh, that's a new one. 13:53:17 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 13:55:28 chandler: Well, one may have a global reference to a list and may want to mutate that list 13:56:37 Jafet: an alist-ref that mimics srfi-69 in semantics 13:56:49 ski: does the (list (list ...)) invoke an implicit copy? 13:57:37 Jafet: s/alist-ref/alist-lib/ 13:58:20 ski: sorry, tired. misread that. 13:58:59 Tire responsible. Don't tire & hack 13:59:13 sjamaan: good axiom 13:59:22 :) 14:00:06 C-Keen: it's not generally better; but we're imitating destructive semantics in this case 14:00:34 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:03:25 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:03:30 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@c-24-61-43-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:06:30 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: copumpkin] 14:08:42 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:12:10 mickn [~mickn@75-119-255-183.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 14:12:58 chandler: "destructive prepense", the substantive to that verb, also achieves zero google hits 14:13:16 let it now be inscribed in the collective memory of humanity, as soon as the crawlers hit our logs 14:14:30 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 14:15:14 -!- kenjin2202 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has left #scheme 14:15:24 ski: thanks, by the way; i vaguely knew i needed a new pair, not a list. my addled brain forgot cons! 14:15:52 How could you forget Cons the Magnificent? 14:17:18 it's sort of like when my wife disappears, even though she's in the same room 14:17:27 heh 14:21:05 Now go and make yourself a jelly sandwich 14:21:22 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:51 foof` [~user@FL1-122-131-157-146.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 14:26:15 -!- hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:21 -!- foof [~user@FL1-122-131-157-146.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:31:18 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-177-103-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:33:00 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:33:11 hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 14:34:00 -!- ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:35:32 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 14:42:29 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:47:58 ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 14:49:33 sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:51:42 ejs [~eugen@230-120-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 14:52:06 -!- ski_ [~md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:13 -!- ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:53:22 ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 14:56:42 ski_ [~md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 14:56:42 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 14:57:28 bunz [~bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:57:28 -!- bunz [~bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:57:28 bunz [~bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #scheme 14:57:58 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfd032.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 15:00:25 -!- ejs [~eugen@230-120-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:00:48 ejs [~eugen@230-120-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 15:01:29 HG` [~HG@xdslfd032.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 15:01:33 davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:03:30 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfd032.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:45 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:04:13 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:06:31 hi! 15:06:49 anyone here knows how to convert a value from int to double in gambit? 15:10:39 Checkie [3064@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 15:12:53 -!- bunz [~bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has left #scheme 15:13:47 dudleyf [~dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has joined #scheme 15:16:58 bunz [~bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #scheme 15:17:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 15:18:47 metaperl [~metaperl@adsl-249-7-170.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 15:19:19 blackened`_ [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 15:19:46 why would someone need a stable sorting algorithm? what is the practical use of maintaining the order of records A and B for which key(A) and key(B) return the same value? 15:19:54 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20:11 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@98.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:21:19 metaperl, imagine a spreadsheet 15:21:27 you sort by column A, then by column B 15:21:51 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:22:20 hmm.... I dont quite understand how sort stability plays into that 15:22:34 each column could be sorted without stability couldnt it? 15:22:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:22:50 oh, you mean where you select both columns and then choose sort 15:23:10 ? 15:23:18 no, first you select A, and sort 15:23:23 then you select B, and sort 15:23:32 ok... 15:23:40 right 15:23:42 you want to preserve the A-order among things that have the same B value 15:23:47 now why would sort stability be important? 15:24:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:24:24 that's what a stable sort would do - not rearrange things from the way they were when sorted by A 15:24:31 metaperl: so that your rows would stay intact? 15:24:32 alvatar [~alvatar@149.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 15:24:38 sphex_ [~nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:25:19 ok and in this case key(B) = B ... the key function is an identity function? 15:26:36 -!- sphex [~nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:27:02 no, the key is the value of column B 15:28:13 right, I thought that was what an identity function did 15:28:29 I(6) = 6 15:28:35 when I is the identity function 15:28:52 no, the value is the whole row 15:29:05 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@149.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 15:29:07 the key is just the value in column B of a particular row 15:30:45 ok thanks. I'm googling for amazon interview questions. since I have my 2nd phone screen soon :) 15:31:20 I was reading on merge sort and quick sort and came across the idea of a stable sort but didnt know what it was or why it would ever be needed. Now I do. :) 15:33:27 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 15:35:10 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.124.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:38:42 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 15:43:43 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:45:54 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:57:25 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-177-103-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:58:53 -!- hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:52 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 16:06:36 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:07:19 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-177-103-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:08:06 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:08:10 In scheme how do you do a bunch of sequential statements? 16:08:28 alvatar [~alvatar@149.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:09:07 sah0s: code them sequentially. 16:09:49 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:14:10 sah0s: (begin a b c ...) ? 16:15:23 mario-goulart: i don't know how to do that 16:15:38 alaricsp: thx, let me check 16:18:24 alaricsp: that doesn't seem to work in LispWorks 16:19:13 alaricsp: which is not scheme :) excuse me, i'll check again :) 16:21:02 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 16:22:36 nothingHappens [~nothingha@173-31-122-80.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 16:23:00 jay-mccarthy [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:28:11 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:32:31 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:35:39 -!- dudleyf [~dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has quit [Quit: dudleyf] 16:40:53 -!- ejs [~eugen@230-120-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:41:36 -!- Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:38 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 16:43:05 NoBody [~benoit.co@ALille-551-1-59-44.w86-198.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:43:12 -!- NoBody [~benoit.co@ALille-551-1-59-44.w86-198.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #scheme 16:49:44 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:53:31 quack [~quack@81.193.82.10] has joined #scheme 16:56:02 -!- mickn [~mickn@75-119-255-183.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:04:07 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:48 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 17:06:07 If it is LispWorks then maybe (progn a b c) ? 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19:42:36 There will be an official announcement. 19:43:36 Unofficially I announced them on this channel last night, and I can do that again. 19:43:54 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:45:58 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:46:24 -!- alexsura1i [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:48:52 wvd [~wvd@unaffiliated/williej] has joined #scheme 19:49:48 jcowan, thanks 19:49:48 i can scroll 19:50:22 mickn [~mickn@76-10-167-88.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 19:50:35 Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 19:53:13 -!- Sveklo [~sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:45 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:58:45 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:17 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 20:02:00 saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-77-50.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:05:31 -!- mickn [~mickn@76-10-167-88.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:06:59 m811 [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 20:08:20 Sveklo [~sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 20:08:39 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-75.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:11:36 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-31.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:18:34 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:19:37 -!- mije [~antoine@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:20:02 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-177-103-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 20:20:25 -!- Checkie [3064@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by CheckNerd!17045@unaffiliated/checkie))] 20:20:37 Checkie [17045@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 20:21:32 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5B435.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:25 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:41 hotblack231 [~jh@p4FC5A758.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:28:08 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@146.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:28:18 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5B435.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:34:47 choas [~lars@p5B0DC2F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:35:39 -!- Sveklo [~sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:55 Sveklo [~sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 20:38:25 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable049.173-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:41:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:43:30 mmc [~mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:46:01 -!- davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:52:12 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:04 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:11 gwynddyllydd [~yghorkers@201.29.218.151] has joined #scheme 21:00:04 -!- wvd [~wvd@unaffiliated/williej] has quit [] 21:00:27 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:01:08 copumpkin [~copumpkin@dhcp-212-228.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 21:01:14 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@dhcp-212-228.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:25 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 21:05:40 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:49 -!- gwynddyllydd [~yghorkers@201.29.218.151] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:19:13 schmir [~schmir@p54A93D60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:23:04 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:25:39 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:38:56 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-224-230.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:39:49 Good afternoon, my fine Scheming friends. 21:40:06 good afternoon, knight of the wg1 council 21:40:26 *arcfide* coughs. 21:44:46 Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 21:44:48 Boo! 21:47:35 *arcfide* raises his hands instinctively to defend himself against the incoming incorporeal being about to consume his soul! 21:48:35 Soul? What ever should I want a soul for? What can one do with a soul? 21:49:08 Riastradh: Why do things that go boo do anything? 21:49:33 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:51:05 Capers! 21:52:33 Riastradh, well a soul could be quite a bargaining tool. 21:52:42 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:53:13 You could sell your soul to the devil in exchange for being able to play the blues really well 21:53:16 Or something like that. 21:53:17 kilimanjaro, hmm, can I sell someone else's soul to the devil, or can I sell only mine? 21:53:21 deal. 21:53:53 Riastradh, I'd have to check the legal statutes, I'm sure this has come up before. 21:54:46 Also, does it work with klezmer instead of blues? 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