00:00:47 alvatar [n=alvatar@110.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 00:00:50 hi! 00:01:11 I'm trying to use opengl FFI with Gambit 00:01:29 but as there is no example or test, I have to figure out everything 00:02:27 does anyone know how to make this C line equivalent in gambit?: 00:03:45 glutInit(&argc, argv); 00:04:10 I mean, to pass the application arguments and a pointer to the number of arguments 00:04:35 I have (glutInit) function defined from the bindings 00:07:34 http://github.com/sthilaid/space-invaders <-- have you looked at this? 00:07:48 it uses glut with gambit-c 00:08:02 ah nice! 00:08:06 that's perfect to learn 00:08:09 thx 00:08:50 np. links is all I'm good for :{) 00:08:57 -!- ente [i=bf94446e@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has left #scheme 00:11:15 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:21 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-127.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:13:01 -!- wingo [n=wingo@11.Red-81-38-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:20:57 arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-57-0-232.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:23:23 Yes! I finally get my dual-head setup! I think I'm a happy Schemer now. 00:24:51 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:25:00 so now you can have 300 character long lines? 00:25:30 Worse. :-) 00:25:52 copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:25:59 I have a 1680x1050 desktop on one, and a 1920x1200 300 characters is *short*! 00:26:11 Eherm, a 1920x1200 on the other, even. 00:26:49 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 00:27:55 see if you can fit the entire r6rs standard on one line 00:28:04 Hah. 00:28:06 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:14 I'm afraid there are limits. :-) 00:28:37 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 00:30:45 Hrm, does anyone know of any libraries in Scheme for "Discreet Event Simulation?" 00:30:54 Heh. 00:30:55 Whoops, discrete, I mean. 00:30:56 :-) 00:31:08 The other kind...I don't care about. 00:31:09 :-) 00:31:17 Of course you don't. 00:32:39 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 00:32:53 Yay! 00:34:25 That's an, um, interesting keyboard. How fast can you type on that? 00:35:03 chandler: Pretty fast. :-) 00:35:04 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 00:35:17 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:35:21 >100wpm on a typical text? 00:37:42 chandler: It depends on temperature, fatigue, and the like, but I'm almost always able to stay at least above 80wpm, and usually in the 90 - 110 range. 00:38:04 Unfortunately, temperature and fatique are big factors. 00:38:11 emmy [n=em@cpe-72-225-241-65.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:38:13 For me, not the keyboard. :-) 00:38:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 00:40:57 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:06 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:41:20 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:41:57 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A9050B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:46 My favorite typing test is typeracer.com. 00:42:53 It's fun to race others. :-) 00:44:07 Aw I'm getting all emotional seeing all these people from #lisp in here :') 00:45:25 Hah! 00:45:49 So I guess that's a no on the discrete events simulation, huh? 00:46:04 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:47:34 arcfide: Make a video of you "typing" with that 00:48:11 Quadrescence: I think I already have. 00:48:30 arcfide, can we race each other on typeracer? 00:49:17 oh theres a "race your friends" link. want to try it? 00:49:22 jonrafkind: Haha, I suppose so. :-) 00:49:34 Quadrescence: I can email you a copy of the movie if you care to watch. 00:49:36 http://play.typeracer.com/?rt=1cv7ksr3ux19k 00:49:38 Or maybe I should post it. 00:49:59 arcfide: imagehost.org supports 100MB files 00:53:55 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:13 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:55:52 You know what we need? 00:55:59 A Rudybot typerace feature! 00:56:53 LOL, good racing jonrafkind. 00:57:03 trophies for all 00:57:16 Obviously Dragon Naturally Speaking software is the best for editing and such. 00:58:59 Quadrescence: I'm uploading a movie so you can see. 00:59:15 :) 00:59:33 I've always wondered if Dragon ever considering making an edition for programmers with RSI and carpal tunnel 00:59:39 *considered 01:00:16 Someone just make emacs voice-controlled 01:00:29 Quadrescence: There you go. 01:01:47 "Cee eks cee eff home slash code slash helloworld dot ess cee em RET cee eks aych em cee eks backslash" 01:02:28 "main screen turn on" 01:02:37 Daemmerung: HAHahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahhhhhhhhhhhhahahahahhaha 01:04:08 arcfide: crazy 01:05:00 Quadrescence: Crazy? :-) You like? 01:07:58 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@110.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["leaving"] 01:08:13 arcfide: I'm not sure if I do or not. I have a model M and I love it a lot. 01:10:25 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@69.226.133.43] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:21:48 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:43 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 01:26:38 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:35 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-245-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:43:00 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-zshbwcxlyugwnqmh] has left #scheme 01:48:27 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-203-30-77.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:29 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Success] 01:53:13 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:54:16 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:55:44 -!- saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:49 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:58:20 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 01:59:18 -!- davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:00:52 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:09:35 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 02:11:32 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-248.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:11:41 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-248.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 02:11:48 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296b28.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:36 -!- emmy [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:18:03 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #scheme 02:20:02 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:59 Quadrescence, you want Klarlund's ShortTalk system: http://shorttalk-emacs.sourceforge.net 02:25:01 hahaha 02:27:36 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 02:34:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:34:21 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 02:40:12 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:57 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:47 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-248.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:52:02 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:54:29 geckosenator [n=sean@69.226.133.43] has joined #scheme 02:54:48 how do i override the default output port? 02:56:49 You start by going outside the standard.... 02:57:02 ok 02:57:21 i.e. it's impl dependent 02:58:08 Many impls treat current-output-port as a parameter, so that'd be my first try. 03:00:36 Or you could use `with-output-to-file' portably. 03:00:51 *Daemmerung* winces 03:00:58 I mean, within the standard. 03:01:37 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:14:47 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:18:07 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:58 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:20:28 rouslan [n=rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 03:21:07 I am currently implementing a Scheme interpreter as a robot scripting framework (C++). 03:21:42 Any suggestions on configuring the environment? 03:22:26 Obviously there will be primitives such as (set-left-motor x) or (get-x-pos) 03:22:36 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 03:27:32 -!- Terminus [n=justin@116.50.188.3] has quit ["leaving"] 03:34:43 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit ["b"] 03:35:40 offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 03:36:27 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:36:38 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 03:52:33 tjafk [n=timj@e176222042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:58:38 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@static-72-91-30-19.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:58:56 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:24 rouslan: Why are you creating your own implementation of Scheme, out of curiosity? 04:00:00 *offby1* creates his own implementation of Scheme, out of cottage cheese 04:00:44 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-57-0-232.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:01:19 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 04:01:38 chandler: I'm not (using TinyScheme) 04:01:43 chandler: I just need to add external bindings 04:02:47 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:02:49 ... Yikes. Are you aware that there are better options available than TinyScheme? 04:02:58 * 04:03:01 there ARE? 04:03:45 offby1: Hush. 04:04:21 Lua, TCL? 04:04:27 TinyScheme seems to be ok. 04:04:56 rouslan: I would point to Chibi Scheme first. It's faster and more complete than TinyScheme, while remaining quite simple and small. 04:05:14 Too late for that. 04:05:44 TinyScheme is large/inefficient? It seems to be extremely efficient. 04:06:14 I don't think it's particularly large, but according to foof (Chibi's author) it is much slower than Chibi. 04:09:21 -!- tjaway [n=timj@e176204163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:33 -!- rouslan [n=rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has left #scheme 04:10:49 -!- elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:23 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 04:15:44 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:36:18 That sucks (re: Arthur Gleckler resigning). 04:37:14 And rouslan should have stuck around, it would hardly be too late to switch the chibi. The FFI would make adding the external bindings much easier. 04:38:10 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:38:11 Hydr4 [n=Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:40:46 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 04:47:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:12 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:01 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:08:20 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 05:08:43 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:08:49 It was never clear just what he was asking. 05:08:58 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:09:02 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 05:09:10 "what we clearly mean is not exactly clear" 05:09:39 QinGW 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and gcc 4.4.2 12:44:19 HG` [n=HG@xdslgg182.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 12:44:35 sorry, gambit 4.6 I meant 12:49:26 Single host? 12:50:27 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 12:51:31 what? 12:52:13 Did you compile gambit with --enable-single-host ? 12:52:36 no... 12:52:46 its a gentoo ebuild 12:52:51 let me take a look at how it was compiled 12:53:09 export GAMBC_CC_VERBOSE=yes 12:53:22 yes, it was compiled as single host 12:53:26 Then build space-invaders and tell me what the options passed to gcc are. 12:53:42 /usr/bin/gsc -:=/usr -debug -cc-options "-I/usr/include -I/usr/include/GL -I/usr/include/SDL -I/usr/include/SDL" -ld-options "-L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -lgambc -lutil -lSDL -lSDL_mixer -lglut" -debug-source -o user-interface-images.o1 user-interface-images.scm 12:54:32 No, the options to gcc, not gsc. 12:54:45 is coming :) still gsc is working on it 12:54:57 :) 12:55:36 atm, I'm compiling with gambit 4.5.3 12:55:44 but I can make it with 4.6 too 12:56:21 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 12:57:39 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:00:35 Anyway, gambit generates C code that takes a very long time for gcc to compile, especially when using single-host. 13:01:42 well, this seems to be stopped here: 13:01:43 /usr/bin/gsc -:=/usr -debug -cc-options "-I/usr/include -I/usr/include/GL -I/usr/include/SDL -I/usr/include/SDL" -ld-options "-L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -lgambc -lutil -lSDL -lSDL_mixer -lglut" -debug-source -o new-engine.o1 new-engine.scm 13:01:55 so I think it didn't even call gcc yet 13:02:26 oh... 13:03:41 well I paste the long gcc lines 13:03:47 I got them from ps ax 13:04:03 it seems to be called internally by gsc 13:04:11 where can I paste? 13:04:13 paste! 13:04:15 paste? 13:04:23 hum... 13:04:48 http://pastebin.com/m68515620 13:04:49 lisppaste is sleeping 13:06:15 I think it becomes a bit hard to develop with such long compilation times 13:06:17 alvatar: gsc won't show you the gcc calls unless you set GAMBC_CC_VERBOSE=yes 13:06:24 especially for a newbie 13:06:46 foof: done 13:06:57 yes, you told me before, sorry for that 13:07:06 x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-gcc -Wl,-O1 -march=native -mtune=native -O2 -pipe -Wno-unused -O1 -fno-math-errno -fschedule-insns2 -fno-trapping-math -fno-strict-aliasing -fwrapv -fomit-frame-pointer -fPIC -fno-common -mieee-fp -rdynamic -shared -D___DYNAMIC -D___SINGLE_HOST -I"/usr/include" -o "new-engine.o1" -I/usr/include -I/usr/include/GL -I/usr/include/SDL -I/usr/include/SDL new-engine.c -L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -lgamb 13:08:01 Right, that -D___SINGLE_HOST is there because gambit was compiled with --enable-single-host. 13:08:33 what does that? what should I do to reduce these compilation times? 13:08:34 You can disable it for any individual file by adding -U___SINGLE_HOST to the --cc-options. 13:09:07 For space invaders you can add that to the INCLUDE_OPTIONS in the makefile. 13:09:30 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 13:09:44 I changed the makefile 13:09:50 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 13:09:50 davids [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 13:09:56 -!- davids [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:09:58 and what is that option doing? 13:12:19 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:25 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-122-131-157-146.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:29 foof [n=user@FL1-122-131-157-146.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 13:12:36 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 13:13:32 ente [i=bf94446e@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has joined #scheme 13:13:43 hi 13:13:57 hum... still taking ages with this option (it's deactivated with -U per file) 13:14:08 /usr/bin/gsc -:=/usr -debug -cc-options "-U___SINGLE_HOST -I/usr/include -I/usr/include/GL -I/usr/include/SDL -I/usr/include/SDL" -ld-options "-L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -lgambc -lutil -lSDL -lSDL_mixer -lglut" -debug-source -o user-interface-images.o1 user-interface-images.scm 13:14:54 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:02 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [Client Quit] 13:15:22 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 13:15:41 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-1-100.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:11 It's only been a couple of minutes, give it half an hour. 13:16:19 half an hour?? 13:16:31 how can one develop with this? 13:16:39 :S 13:16:48 Waiting for at least half an hour. 13:16:59 every change? 13:17:13 Once you compile the C interfaces, you can edit and run the application itself interpreted. The gambit VM is quite fast. 13:17:48 You can also remove the -debug and -debug-source options to speed up the compilation a little more. 13:18:38 chri2008_ [n=christia@79.223-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 13:19:11 what are those debug options good for? 13:19:16 -!- chri2008_ [n=christia@79.223-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:19 Debugging :) 13:19:23 debugging C or schem? 13:19:36 can someone give me some example code for sockets in scheme48? 13:19:37 Scheme 13:19:42 didn't find anything :( 13:19:46 then I'll leave them 13:19:50 chri2008 [n=christia@79.223-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 13:20:36 *foof* looks at the space-invaders code and wants to cry 13:20:47 foof: why? :) 13:21:05 Not the quality of the code, just the hoops that gambit hackers have to jump through to write anything :( 13:21:39 like getting the argv pointers? 13:22:06 to me, it looked ugly and not intuitive at all 13:22:33 No, the macro hackery and lack of sensible phasing, and the difficulty of embedding C code compared to, say, Chicken. 13:23:02 well, you are scaring me from using gambit 13:23:20 I think I'll use ikarus 13:23:28 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:23:28 Oh, that user-interface-images.scm file is using macro to define a whole bunch of fonts, which is potentially exploding into a _huge_ amount of code, hence the slow compilation. 13:24:14 and that belongs to the interpreted part of the program once I have the C interfaces compiled? 13:24:18 (I would say yes) 13:25:17 It's a separate file, but generates inline C code. So if you modify it you need to recompile it. But there's no reason to modify it unless you want to change the fonts. 13:25:47 okay, I see 13:26:04 so every single file can be compiled and remain untouched 13:26:57 Yes, and gambit loads whichever of the compiled source or .scm file are newer automatically. 13:27:47 You could theoretically run a daemon to look for files that have been modified, but not too recently (suggesting you aren't editing them anymore) and compile them in the background. 13:30:34 chri2008_ [n=christia@79.223-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 13:30:51 -!- chri2008 [n=christia@79.223-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:54 -!- chri2008_ [n=christia@79.223-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:30:55 alvatar_ [n=alvatar@95.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 13:31:38 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:43 chri2008 [n=christia@79.223-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 13:32:04 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@224.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:32:52 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 13:33:37 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33:40 easy4 [n=easy4@c-174-60-36-128.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:33:54 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 13:37:30 TR2N` [n=email@89-180-144-108.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 13:39:30 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-32.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:39:57 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 13:47:50 scheme is a trip. I can write a grammar that defines a parser for a subset of scheme. (the grammar is written in scheme). Write that grammar to a file. Parse that file. The output of the parse is the original grammar. It's like a triquine ;) 13:48:59 if you did it in any other language, the first thing you need is a parser for that language. 13:49:00 funkeh 13:49:23 I can make a compiler that compiles alists to hash tables, and compile it with itself 13:51:10 sheme is blowing me mind ! ;) 13:51:22 #xc0ffee time 13:53:14 scheme, schmeme 13:53:17 :P 13:54:22 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgg182.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:58:20 HG` [n=HG@xdslgg182.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 13:58:40 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgg182.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:04 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:11:25 -!- chri2008 [n=christia@79.223-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 14:17:18 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p923e60.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:18:26 I tried to do that in python once, but I couldn't bend the syntax of the language. I still think python is a cool language though, definitely has it's place. 14:18:38 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:21:37 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 14:24:21 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-170-245.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:33 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-203-30-77.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:31:11 -!- alvatar_ [n=alvatar@95.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["leaving"] 14:32:31 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-122-131-157-146.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:34 foof [n=user@FL1-122-131-157-146.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 14:33:43 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:34:09 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:34:32 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-220-17.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 14:41:14 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-77-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:45:33 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:03 -!- bytecolor [n=user@adsl-71-137-193-55.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has left #scheme 14:57:09 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 15:09:35 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 15:15:08 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 15:29:42 -!- bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:23 elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 15:33:19 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-orzcyjqtnwisnfbx] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 15:39:00 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:04 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:06 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.251.4] has joined #scheme 15:52:27 jcowan_ [n=jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:52:47 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 15:59:41 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 16:05:40 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-28-87.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:08:03 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:08:19 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 16:11:27 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:12:11 bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:16:18 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 16:25:40 http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg *giggle* 16:26:08 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 16:26:48 haha :D 16:27:40 bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:32:36 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:38 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 16:33:38 16:33:38 -!- names: ccl-logbot jlongster bipt` luz bweaver MichaelRaskin sepult hkBst_ jcowan ejs elderK leppie NNshag REPLeffect foof tobetchi langmartin MrFahrenheit TR2N easy4 ente sphex blackened` masm Quadrescence mmc forcer Jafet Fufie mario-goulart stepnem Edico jayne marcoecc qebab offby1 hosh schemer999 nowhereman ecraven attila_lendvai melba alexsuraci eli snorble Adamant pavelludiq joast XTL ironChicken clog kencausey Hydr4 araujo tjafk dnm_ saccade_ 16:33:38 -!- names: cmatei xristos Pepe_ eldragon kniu sloyd rudybot ski ray Obfuscate dmoerner nicktastic tarbo mrd` sjamaan roderic _Jordan_ jyujin slxix_ chandler brx Armagedd1n00 Axioplase_ duncanm Khisanth gabot jay-mccarthy Zuu xwl_ Daemmerung Mr_Awesome Checkie fda314925 Len_ alaricsp tltstc gnomon bzzbzz ve cky j0ni_ mreggen dlouhy mhoye SharkBrain Leonidas dfeuer tabe` Adrinael BD|gone csmrfx mornfall tomaw__ samth_away yosafbridge nasloc__ ASau 16:33:38 -!- names: eno rmrfchik Arelius incubot jimrees guenthr saccade z0d felipe d3z C-Keen mbishop tizoc peddie rapacity zbigniew klutometis ineiros rotty elly 16:33:55 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:35:28 I don't completely comprehend the Palin frames, but the rest of that image is 100% reality-based. 16:35:30 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 16:36:32 Daemmerung: 'amazingly wrong', and 'amazingly wrong, but with boobs'? 16:36:39 *elly* guesses :P 16:39:00 it is funny that that is funny 16:39:25 (except with ruby which is kinda nice lisp) 16:40:13 alvatar [n=alvatar@144.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:40:19 hi!ª 16:40:50 hi 16:42:14 ok, I managed to compile space invaders with gambit :) 16:42:17 ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.251.4] has joined #scheme 16:42:31 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.251.4] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:42:45 the game doesn't work well, it has many bugs, but I have some code to learn from at least :) 16:43:05 foof: what was what you didn't like from this code (so I can avoid repeating those mistakes) 16:44:36 csmrfx: I don't understand what you mean by "rudy which is kinda nice lisp". 16:44:48 Ruby is exactly like Lisp, except for all of the things that make Lisp different from other languages. 16:45:17 alvatar: perhaps the ugliness of define-macro, and the pervasive underscore-poisoning of the C glue? 16:45:22 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/gateway.tiramisu.in/x-uxrtyynxnhjfntim] has joined #scheme 16:45:43 I have heard very knowledgeable people say that many of the most important innovations in the history of programming langauges were invented by Scheme. 16:46:03 I don't understand why hygiene isn't the default in Gambit. I shouldn't need to pass a "please don't be totally broken" flag to the implementation when starting it. 16:46:08 chandler: it is well hidden lisp. 16:46:17 I was wondering, is Scheme still being developed with that same pioneering spirit, so that the future most important innovations in programming languages are also invented by Scheme? 16:46:18 chandler: I concur 16:46:40 csmrfx: So well hidden that I can't find any of the distinguishing features of Lisp in at all. 16:46:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:47:23 emma: No, unless you think the future of programming languages will be dominated by arguments about module system design and whether a full numeric tower should be required or optional. 16:48:04 *jcowan* sighs with anticipatory desperation. 16:48:17 *Daemmerung* anticipates desperately 16:48:27 chandler: You guys who really understand scheme seem to be so much more intelligent than just the average person who "can program". I wish you all could work together to make a new renaissance in programming languages like Scheme did in the first place. 16:50:05 Working together is Against The Rules, didn't you know? 16:50:29 Oh, you are going to have so much fun. So. Much. Fun. 16:53:04 This is the era of Against. 16:53:36 Well that sucks. 16:53:38 Quite. That's why all WG had to Swear The Great Oath before we would let them in. 16:54:06 If you guys keep on fighting then other languages like Haskell or something are going to become the language where people say "Oh that's the innovative one where all the ideas come from" 16:54:08 s/WG/WG applicants 16:54:15 They already do. 16:54:25 It's just that those ideas are Evil and Wrong. :-) 16:55:25 for some reason, the idea that other people might think other languages are innovative doesn't bother me 16:55:37 *Daemmerung* dittoes 16:55:42 I mean, really, we are honing a 50-year-old idea to perfection :P let them have their innovation 16:56:02 And their horse-less carriages 16:56:07 heh! 16:56:14 good point, Daemmerung :) 16:56:47 Like pervasive laziness and strong static typing. 16:56:55 I demand my right to put anything into a list that I want to! 16:57:05 Is that safe? 16:57:09 They can't take that away from me 16:57:18 maybe it's just not possible to come up with really new and daring ideas anymore. Maybe programming languages have reached "the end of history" 16:57:38 that would be _shocking_ 16:57:55 then they fall off the disc! 16:58:09 And land upon the Great Elephant 16:58:10 It's not so much the daring new ideas, it's the daring old ideas. Reified continuations have been independently invented some eight times. 16:58:33 homoiconicity and macros are _still_ daring old ideas 16:58:39 To those who say that this is the end of history, I say: Fukuyama that. 17:00:48 *elly* should learn Haskell properly, though 17:01:04 *jcowan* should too but is probably too old. 17:01:11 Metrosexuality is too passe... 17:01:33 'too old', jcowan? 17:01:36 csmrfx: I don't see what that has to do with anything under discussion here. 17:01:56 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:02:16 I don't think I have enough mental flexibility at my present age and state of health to really Get It. 17:02:24 Not for want of trying. 17:02:36 your mind gets stiffer as you get older? O_o 17:02:40 It's hard, when you've always had a razor-sharp perfect memory, to accept natural decay of the facilities. 17:02:51 I simply don't have the motivation for the mental gymanstics involved to accomplish simple tasks. 17:02:56 "gymnastics" 17:03:19 "...but for Men" 17:03:50 Well, mental gymastics are likewise involved in writing sh pipelines (which are lazy and stateless), yet I do those with ease, having learned the toolset thoroughly in my yoothood. 17:04:08 You need to get some reishi and a nice haskell book 17:04:17 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@67.41.108.251] has joined #scheme 17:04:22 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@67.41.108.251] has quit [Client Quit] 17:04:38 It's one thing to occasionally have to stop and arrange the pieces to fit in my brain; it's quite another to have to do so to write programs that would be relatively straightforward with strict evaluation. 17:05:10 A little bit of gymnastics is occasionally fun, but it's not my career choice. 17:06:43 Another stumbling block is the Miracle at the End, yet I have no trouble with the strict-evaluation Miracle at the Beginning. 17:08:31 hkBst__ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 17:09:27 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.251.4] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:09:32 And then, of course, The Monad. Which would be easy for Sh-Pipeline-Me to understand if it weren't so thoroughly obfuscated by the official Haskell tellers of tales. 17:09:55 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 17:13:13 jcowan: this seems like creative writing. 17:13:30 Thank you, I think! 17:13:37 :) 17:13:55 Is it true though that Haskell is obscure for anyone who is used to other things already? 17:14:09 Not obscure. The difficulties aren't on the surface. 17:14:33 It's easy to read Haskell with a little practice. It's writing it that's hard, because it requires adopting it's bondage-and-discipline mindset. 17:14:37 s/it's/its 17:14:38 *Daemmerung* keeps thinking of the last column in Elly's image 17:15:01 Why, is it a caryatid? 17:15:12 Here, have a rimshot. 17:16:50 Nom nom nom. 17:17:04 jcowan: I think lisp is similar in that way. 17:17:32 jcowan: I mean not for the same reasons I'm sure, but it's hard for people to learn, but not because the difficulties are on the surface. 17:17:34 Hard for me to say, as I learned it early. There I think the difficulties mostly *are* on the surface. 17:17:47 No. I'm asking myself not "why don't I know Haskell" (cuz I don't -- yes, it is a flaw), but "why do I know Scheme"? The set of languages to which I was exposed when at a tender and impressionable age included Scheme, but not the (as yet uninvented) Haskell. 17:17:51 The ()s really do scare people off. 17:17:56 I agree, emma 17:18:21 Daemmerung: Well, then, what's to wonder about? If you grow up in Japan, you naturally speak Japanese. 17:18:21 I need a reason to learn me some Haskell. Like how I had to learn me some ML (for great good) to read Appel. 17:18:34 And the lack of things taken for granted in other languages, like a simple `for'. 17:18:43 I think that if you can read ML you can write it, but not so for Haskell (or Prolog either). 17:19:13 Prolog! How very Eighties of you. 17:19:16 jcowan: No there are some very superficial things about lisp that people will complain about like all the parens, but that's superficial. I have learned the scheme syntax pretty well. And I can do some simple coding now. But when I come in here it's like stepping into another world. You guys are always talking about very deep CS concepts. Like to be a good scheme/lisp programmer you have to have a PhD in compiler th 17:19:44 I agree again, emma 17:20:06 jcowan: I quite disagree with you. Personally, I haven't seen any evidence that it's actually possible to read code. I have seen many cases where people read what the code *purports* to do, but code often lies. 17:20:39 What it takes to understand code is less like reading and more like an autopsy. 17:21:12 Run some current through the detached leg, watch it kick 17:21:14 emma: You got cut off at "PhD in compiler th", but I assume that ends in "eory". I don't think that's true; I don't have a PhD in anything, and I was programming in Lisp before I had finished my undergraduate degree. 17:21:36 yeah .. "...PhD in compileter theory or something." 17:21:53 -!- Checkie [i=647@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [K-lined] 17:21:58 Well of course I was being a bit figurative. 17:23:09 Good point. How can advanced concepts become simple effective tools. 17:24:07 emma: I don't really think that the discussions here often involve very deep CS concepts either, but perhaps one's perception of the deepness of the well depends on how far one has fallen down it. 17:24:15 wingo [n=wingo@11.Red-81-38-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:25:08 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 17:25:10 chandler: Well said! 17:25:25 Still, even Alice (though not Bob) reached the bottom eventually. 17:31:57 said the indoctrinated to the indoctrinee 17:33:53 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/gateway.tiramisu.in/x-uxrtyynxnhjfntim] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:01 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/gateway.tiramisu.in/x-pizfwradlelqibyi] has joined #scheme 17:35:22 Scheme is like the SR-71, an elegant and futuristic solution to a problem that people don't care about 17:35:42 What is the problem? 17:37:21 computing for computer scientists 17:37:52 it has nothing to do with computers *strike* and it is not a science *strike* 17:38:20 Jafet: what do you say is the problem that scheme is the solution for? 17:38:43 computing for magic artists 17:38:45 I'm not sure myself. If people find that problem, they would be flocking to scheme to get it solved. 17:38:51 Evidently they are not. 17:39:09 HG` [n=HG@xdslft121.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 17:39:15 So whatever problem scheme is meant to solve, we don't care about it yet. 17:39:21 scheme is not better at solving problems than any other turing complete language 17:39:42 Programming languages are tools for programmers to solve problems. 17:39:46 mumble mumble expressive power mumble mumble mumble 17:39:46 *elly* sort of knows Prolog :P 17:39:54 jcowan: ;) 17:40:03 I dont even know what turing complete really means 17:40:33 capable of computing any function a turing machine could compute? 17:40:45 I'm Turing-hard 17:40:55 um, point, lost 17:41:12 Jafet: that's a little worrying 17:41:59 Turing-complete means that any problem that can be solved by executing explicit step-by-step instructions in turn can be solved by a program in this language (neglecting the fact that actual computers have only a finite amount of working memory) 17:42:32 yeah, but. Was just underlining how that concept in itself is already pure cs 17:42:59 '(- (expt e pi) pi) 17:43:19 Uh, (exp pi) 17:43:42 For example, it was long disputed whether XSLT, the XML transformation language (functional and stateless, though eager) was Turing complete. 17:44:01 A proof that it was emerged a few years ago: this proof, however, depended solely on the fact that it was possible to concatenate and split strings in the language! 17:44:34 It is sad, if you have to write string concat programs in XSLT 17:44:35 You'd love Tcl 17:44:44 no, no we wouldn't :P 17:44:48 ;) 17:45:50 Blum was able to express computability and coding theory statements for computing models that didn't exist yet 17:45:54 As Evil and Wrong goes, Tcl is actually rather nice. 17:46:00 Computing isn't all about Turing machines. 17:46:08 no, it's about lambda calculus :) 17:46:23 Isnt it just transistors 17:46:41 the physical models we use are, yes 17:46:42 hkBst___ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 17:46:50 the theory has nothing to say about transistors 17:46:55 "Cash registers don't really add numbers, they just grind their gears. But then, they don't really grind their gears, either; they just obey the laws of physics." 17:47:03 Transistors and lambda calculus are equivalent to Turing machines 17:48:25 Babbage's analytical machine is very interesting 17:50:26 Computers are transistor abusers. They insist on (slave-)driving them into their nonlinear regimes! 17:50:55 They should use tubes. 17:51:01 jcowan: you are a bad person for that :P 17:51:28 That hardly even registers. I leave computing to computers. 17:52:12 Tube computers at least would sound much better. 17:53:11 John von Neumann did a little work showing how large tube-based computers could grow before you would blow out a tube before finishing your problem. He concluded that fault tolerance would depend on large networks of fairly small computers. 17:53:39 He only got the timeline wrong: transistors are much more reliable, and kept us going another 50 years before his regime kicked in. 17:53:56 jcowan: distributed-system time? 17:55:00 Where is the off button in this language? 17:55:17 in scheme? 17:55:22 ^D, usually 17:55:30 jcowan: now that was a useful insight 17:55:31 On your machine's front panel 17:56:03 people forget the history of CS and as a result reinvent the same shit a lot, sometimes poorly 17:56:31 every time we have a new major market for computers people forget the stuff the mainframe folks learned about code control and checkin 17:56:49 They forget that because they're not paid to remember. 17:56:51 for stability purposes 17:56:52 Amen. To say nothing of reinventing Lisp/Scheme all the time. 17:57:05 "Having regard to all these considerations, we have come, not without reluctance, to the conclusion, that we cannot advise the British Association to take any steps, either by way of recommendation or otherwise, to procure the construction of Mr. Babbage's Analytical Engine and the printing tables by its means." 17:57:13 People don't realize that good software costs a lot of money and a lot of discipline. 17:57:19 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/gateway.tiramisu.in/x-pizfwradlelqibyi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:21 "Say what? Your government hires *historians*?" "Sure. We remind them of what didn't work last time." 17:57:34 :-) 17:58:09 Jafet: sure. but there's a fair amount of low-hanging fruit you can grab from that stuff that is monetarily cheap, and only costs in terms of discipline 18:00:00 I saw this billboard ad where a car manufacturer implored owners to only service their cars at official centers. It depicted a chain with one link replaced by a paper clip. 18:00:13 Your last line, Adamant, reminded me of that billboard. 18:00:18 funkenblatt [n=user@adsl-69-238-246-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:00:37 ejs [n=eugen@109-167-52-226.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 18:00:49 Jafet: except the benefits aren't modeled as a chain :P 18:01:23 The risks are. 18:01:43 those being? 18:02:39 You may have prevented all buffer overflows, but that doesn't make your binary any less vulnerable to bugs in the marshalling code 18:03:09 this is more reliability than pure security :P 18:03:15 Bugs in 'read' and 'print' are probably not very common. 18:03:21 Are they any different? 18:03:24 (er, 'write') 18:07:24 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 18:07:34 Jafet: yes. usually improving security improves reliability, except when it doesn't, and improving reliability substantially often has a minimal security improvement. and in some cases the two can actually conflict. 18:07:36 -!- hkBst___ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:08:32 -!- hkBst__ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 18:10:36 -!- easy4 [n=easy4@c-174-60-36-128.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:11:12 The most secure, reliable, and maintainable parts of any application are those which do not exist. 18:12:12 That's why real world applications in scheme are the most reliable ones. :-) 18:12:21 You betcha. 18:13:09 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:22 -!- csmrfx is now known as csmrfx__ 18:14:36 secure reliable maintainable, pick any two 18:15:12 snearch [n=olaf@g225052124.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 18:15:13 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:16:32 functional programs are typically all three 18:16:50 I would s/maintainable/performant 18:16:53 programs written in the functional style, that is 18:17:28 That include no I/O? 18:17:29 wingo: how secure is (eval (read)) ? 18:17:46 42 18:17:48 depends where the read is from ;P 18:18:08 (with-input-from-file "/dev/null" thunk) 18:18:17 Secure and reliable for a very limited set of inputs. :-) 18:19:06 yeah this turing complete thing is really a drag, you can do anything... 18:19:53 reminds me of the republic of haskell :) 18:21:52 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:25 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:54 C-Keen: the worst (eval (read) (null-environment 5)) can do is run an infinite loop 18:27:01 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 18:27:08 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 18:27:37 well i mean if you're calling eval you deserve whatever consequences arise 18:28:41 foof: agreed, my point was that 'programs written in the functional style are typically all three' does not hold 18:29:21 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:03 use of eval is not typical. 18:30:20 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 18:30:29 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:30:30 i can't remember the last time i used it, outside of implementing macro expanders. 18:30:46 and bootstrapping compilers. 18:31:01 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:04 As I understood making eval explicitly available is the whole point of scheme 18:31:26 i'd say being able to easily implement eval in scheme is the whole point of scheme 18:31:45 thus making its availability not particularly important 18:31:55 I'd say implementing scheme in scheme is the whole point of scheme. 18:31:59 now who said that scheme is just good for writing interpreters in itself? 18:33:24 probably just about every freshman computer science student at berkeley 18:33:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bmebloouicbnfrij] has joined #scheme 18:35:23 C-Keen: you ported termite to chicken? 18:35:37 alvatar: as much as possible 18:35:48 and was it hard? 18:36:15 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:36:27 it was hard due to lack of understanding of a) scheme b) macros c) the chicken module system 18:36:33 in reverse order 18:37:00 but termite is entirely done in scheme, right? 18:37:11 so it could be ported to a r6rs scheme? 18:37:36 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:37:59 the distributed parts rely on the scheme implementation to be able to serialize lambdas and continuations 18:38:30 jlongster [n=user@adsl-070-148-197-047.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 18:38:41 that's where termite meets chicken scheme reality 18:38:48 ok 18:38:49 when ported it 18:39:09 it works well on gambit-c its origin 18:39:20 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:39:26 and you see it as something doable for, for example, ikarus or larceny? 18:39:28 and it also relies on some gambit specific bits 18:39:34 :S 18:39:37 why not 18:40:03 depending on how big the gap between those specific bits and your target implementation is 18:40:14 mzscheme would be another target 18:40:21 I see 18:40:34 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:40:57 (this comes down to another language vs. library debate in the end) 18:41:09 I'm using gambit, but the huge compilation times are scaring me 18:41:15 yes it is scheme, no it is not portable scheme as it depends on a specific library 18:41:57 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-28-87.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:42:03 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 18:42:10 I know many people don't like r6rs, but I can see that it makes cross-implementation ports easier 18:42:34 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:49 I don't know r6rs well enough to have an opinion on that 18:42:54 you won't get cross-platform serializable continuations, though. 18:43:11 *Daemmerung* is amusing himself by reading twenty-year-old postings on comp.lang.scheme 18:43:30 wingo: and you need that for termite, I guess 18:43:37 Daemmerung: The same old problems now? :-) 18:43:43 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:43:49 mario-goulart: Bingo! 18:43:53 :-D 18:44:05 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 18:44:10 from 21 dec 1992 -- "Oh gosh, and in another ten years we'll have standard macro 18:44:10 and object systems! " 18:44:36 heh 18:44:55 but we do! so many to choose from 18:45:05 mreggen_ [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 18:48:37 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:40 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 18:48:48 kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 18:48:58 alvatar: if you're in rapid-iteration mode, you should either run Gambit in interpreted mode, or else have it invoke the C compiler with optimization disabled. How you do the latter obviously depends on your host env. 18:49:56 *Daemmerung* can heat his office with Gambit, if necessary 18:50:12 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 18:51:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@109-167-52-226.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:19 -!- Sergio`_ is now known as Sergio` 18:52:23 Daemmerung: thanks :) 18:52:31 Daemmerung: you use gambit on a normal basis? 18:53:10 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:55:05 PLT is my go-to Scheme. I use Gambit for special circumstances. 18:55:51 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 18:56:35 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:27 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225052124.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:01:56 Daemmerung: I tried space-invaders... it works so slowly for compilation, and the compiled program works very slowly too :S 19:02:55 alvatar: It would probably be a lot faster w/o disabling single-host. 19:03:06 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:32 and what does single-host mean exactly? 19:03:51 anyway, 30 mins to compile feels like compiling whole firefox 19:04:00 and is a small program :S 19:04:04 It means to compile the file as one big single C function. 19:04:28 i.e. to blow GCC's tiny SSA-slingin' mind 19:04:29 if it wasn't for this, I'd use gambit, no doubt of it 19:04:41 ah, I understand 19:05:15 That lets gambit generate faster code by using gotos instead of function calls, and let's gcc generate faster code bceause it does far more optimizations in intra-function code (but those optimizations take a lot of time). 19:05:58 foof: thanks for the explanation! now it makes sense 19:06:12 btw, I've been trying some opengl examples with ikarus 19:06:18 and it works very nice and fast 19:06:26 that's why I'm thinking of using it 19:06:41 alvatar: what did scare you away from chicken? 19:06:45 eventually I want to use termite, though 19:06:47 I've never run the Gambit space-invaders demo, so I don't know what it may or may not be doing. I've had surprising success using PLT in that space. 19:06:52 Ikarus is very nice. It needs threads though. 19:07:03 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 19:07:14 One doesn't think of PLT as performant, but it does well enough. 19:07:17 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:07:51 mario-goulart: I want to interpret scheme code that can use SDL and opengl 19:08:09 chicken needed to compile everything, because csi-sdl was broken 19:08:28 hmmm 19:08:37 alvatar: no you can use chickens csi to do that, you do not need this csi-sdl 19:08:39 Something like space-invaders should certainly be doable in even a slow interpreter. 19:08:55 foof: yeah, I totally agree 19:08:56 alvatar: I tried to make that point the other day 19:09:06 and the compiled version with gambit is veeeery slow 19:09:30 C-Keen: yes, csi-sdl was for repl, right? 19:10:33 alvatar: it was intended for a repl where you could put graphics in like drscheme does. it fails miserably at that. the standard interpreter can run your sdl code just fine, it shows up in an extra (graphical) window 19:11:14 ah, other problems I had with chicken is that the readline egg wasn't compiling and also that I couldn't find easy examples to start with for sdl/opengl 19:11:27 alvatar: are you new to opengl? 19:11:37 not to opengl, but yes to scheme 19:11:54 so I didn't know how to get the &argv :P 19:12:04 csi-sdl is a hack for OS X because SDL_Init() can't be called from a dynamically loaded library on OS X. 19:12:37 alvatar: (argv) :-) 19:12:42 So it's just normal csi linked to SDL where SDL_Init() has been called for you. 19:13:04 mario-goulart: :) :O 19:13:10 mario-goulart: in gambit you have to do ugly things 19:13:13 ... or something like that :) 19:13:24 (look at the space invaders code!) 19:13:46 alvatar: usually I use (command-line-arguments) which does exactly what the procedure name indicates. 19:14:06 I wouldn't take one program written by a third party as representative of the system as a whole. 19:14:22 I definitely have a lack of knowledge of real scheme programming 19:14:22 (argv) gives you the interpreter and its arguments too (which usually you don't want). 19:14:32 that's why I wanted to work from examples 19:14:43 However, I also don't think that Gambit is the correct tool for you. Not if you're new to Scheme. Gambit's opengl support is pretty crude. (as you've seen) 19:14:48 sdl does not depend on readline 19:15:01 if you want readline support atm the fastest way is to use rlwrap 19:15:07 C-Keen: I know, I was just experimenting with the interpreter and so on 19:15:22 C-Keen: actually, that's not so important now in retrospective 19:15:25 (BTW, readline works fine for me here) 19:15:28 I'm testing different implementations 19:15:52 and, especially, being able to start from examples 19:16:02 mario-goulart: I haven't checked for a long time 19:16:26 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:16:42 It wasn't working due to a compiler bug, IIRC. Now it seems to be fine. 19:16:45 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 19:16:58 I'm using 4.3.0 here. 19:17:46 mario-goulart: no, the problem seems to be my distribution 19:18:20 it can't find libtermcap, while it is installed as a "compat" library 19:18:58 Ah, ok. You can also use csi from Emacs (in case you use Emacs). 19:19:23 I'm a vim user, so I'll have to learn in the future 19:19:32 Or rlwrap, like C-Keen mentioned. 19:20:19 anyway, am I going to face any problems if a choose for example ikarus or mzscheme with r6rs? 19:21:36 Of course you'll face problems. They'll just be different problems from the ones that you currently face. 19:22:00 Daemmerung: yes, yes :) I mean if it's too alpha or something like that 19:22:30 R6RS on PLT is an afterthought feature. All of the GL examples use PLT's native language. 19:22:55 Not saying that it won't work, just that I've never used it that way. 19:23:23 okay 19:23:43 I'll leave now, and sleep with it. Tomorrow I'll start coding with either Chicken, Gambit or Ikarus 19:24:25 I guess the one that has a simplest, easiest example that I can use for development 19:24:32 thanks for all your help, guys! 19:24:33 (Why the insistence on R6RS? Neither Chicken nor Gambit support it.) 19:25:16 I just like the module system, gambit is driving me crazy: the docs say one thing that doesn't work, then you have blackhole... 19:26:13 I sympathize. If you do try PLT, use its native module system. Don't limit yourself to R6RS. 19:26:37 then I also don't want to tie too much to an implementation 19:26:57 r6rs promises some degree of ease in porting things, I belive 19:27:01 That is a lost cause. 19:27:01 (just believing) 19:27:11 I see 19:27:28 okay 19:27:32 I must leave now! 19:27:36 thanks again! :) 19:27:37 You sleep now. Good luck. 19:27:39 o/ 19:27:45 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@144.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["leaving"] 19:30:58 has anybody here investigated the source code for stalin? 19:31:10 it seems pretty intimidating 19:31:29 no kidding 19:31:31 Long ago, in the 0.8 timeframe. What are you trying to do? 19:32:05 mostly just trying to gradually understand how it works 19:32:11 but i'm not entirely sure where to start 19:32:15 Have you read the fdlcc paper? 19:32:22 yeah 19:33:24 Then I'm no help. I haven't looked at it in many years. 19:35:44 *Daemmerung* checks some file timestamps 19:36:01 Great God, it was almost ten years ago. How time flies. 19:36:14 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:37:11 heh 19:37:31 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:22 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-32.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:34 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 19:39:40 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-32.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 19:42:45 Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-5-30.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 19:45:39 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:33 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 19:51:03 -!- melba [n=blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:26 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-77-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 19:53:32 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:04 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:54:25 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 19:54:31 how files time. 19:57:33 jedc [n=jedc@c-24-22-122-209.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:57:38 mathk_ [n=mathk@lns-bzn-20-82-64-59-119.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:58:04 Time flies like an arrow. 19:58:46 Fruit flies like a banana. 19:59:25 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:46 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 20:00:38 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 20:01:34 -!- kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:28 -!- mreggen_ [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 20:03:03 Joe flew like a brick :) 20:03:31 :P 20:05:36 :P:P 20:11:54 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-77-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:14:35 exexex [n=chatzill@85.97.161.251] has joined #scheme 20:15:17 -!- j0ni_ 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#scheme 21:43:56 nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 21:44:55 -!- nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:54 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:29 do schemes that implement delimited continuations have shift and reset (or their equivalents) as part of their intermediate languages? 21:51:37 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 21:52:09 -!- mathk_ [n=mathk@lns-bzn-20-82-64-59-119.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:54 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:57:52 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:58:08 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:47 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has quit 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(Connection reset by peer)] 22:15:11 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:15:15 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-77-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:16:18 -!- TR2N [n=email@89-180-144-108.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:16:20 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 22:24:55 sitaram's "handling control" looks good. 22:29:22 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 22:31:50 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 22:32:04 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:52 I liked ``Final Shift for Call/cc: Direct Implementation of Shift and Reset'' 22:36:26 will check it out, tx 22:38:29 plt/collects/mzlib/control.ss defines its delimited-continuation sugar. 22:38:38 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:42:04 Daemmerung: that is helpful, thanks. 22:44:09 -!- kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:26 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-139-181.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:32 bleh, cps transforms. 22:52:18 mbohun [n=mbohun@202.124.73.139] has joined #scheme 22:59:31 -!- jlongster [n=user@adsl-070-148-197-047.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:18 sooo... if I implement %, I can have a short-cut operator "throw" that doesn't require me to reify the continuation, and punt on implementing fcontrol. 23:01:32 *wingo* talks to himself. it's a habit of the ignorant. 23:04:02 yeek. multiple values. 23:05:22 -!- Armagedd1n00 is now known as Armageddon00 23:14:56 "A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying." 23:17:26 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:06 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 23:18:14 incubot: Initial NIF experiments meet requirements for fusion ignition 23:18:18 too much fertilizer in the runoff, algae bloom, ignition! 23:21:33 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p4FC5AE34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:24:22 the nif is only funded to verify computer simulations of h-bombs 23:30:00 ignition time to make algae fuel for cars 23:33:29 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-111-77-50.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:33:33 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bmebloouicbnfrij] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:36:29 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 23:44:53 Soylent unleaded 23:48:52 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:58:05 MissPiggy [n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #scheme 23:58:28 is there any scheme REPL in the PLT webserver? so I can use scheme from my webbrowser 127.0.0.1? 23:58:39 flatt et al's icfp 07 paper is also good 23:59:56 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:59:59 -!- HG` 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