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["Leaving"] 02:23:20 paradroid [n=kevin@24-216-187-138.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:24:57 Has anyone tried compiling scheme48 here? I'm getting strange error messages when trying. 02:28:46 which version? 02:29:13 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:31:11 roderic: Latest build, scheme48-1.8 on a x86_64 system. 02:32:02 c/unix/socket.c: In function 'gethostbyname_thread': 02:32:02 c/unix/socket.c:354: error: 'struct hostent' has no member named 'h_addr' 02:32:02 c/unix/socket.c: In function 's48_get_host_by_name': 02:32:02 c/unix/socket.c:385: error: 'struct hostent' has no member named 'h_addr' 02:32:02 make: *** [c/unix/socket.o] Error 1 02:32:11 add -D_GNU_SOURCE to the c flags 02:32:48 can do it in the generated makefiles 02:35:46 roderic: That did it, thanks. 02:35:58 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:40:57 -!- paradroid [n=kevin@24-216-187-138.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:48:03 -!- saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:53:27 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:54:17 -!- alexsuraci [n=AlexSura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:19 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:04:12 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:05 saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-24-130-33-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:21:20 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 03:21:31 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 03:24:10 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:29:38 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 03:36:01 bytecolor [n=user@32.154.101.92] has joined #scheme 03:37:37 Hey guys! 03:37:46 Anyone here have any potential insights regarding a question, such as... 03:37:52 elo elderK 03:37:55 How do you interpret the interpreter that interprets the interpreter? :) 03:38:24 :) hey bytecolor! How's it going, man? 03:38:53 ok, still playing with parsing, PEGs 03:38:58 PEGs? 03:39:07 p/exp grammars? 03:39:10 Parsing Expression Grammars 03:39:13 nod 03:39:24 elderK: just call it microcode? :P 03:39:27 parsing is fun :D 03:39:32 hella powerful grammars 03:39:35 Adamant: Hey! 03:39:53 Adamant: Still investigating/tinkering with building an implementation :) 03:39:57 I'm thinking about... like, 03:40:01 elderK: hola, how's it going down New Zealand way? 03:40:03 take read tables and macro expanders. 03:40:11 and eval etc. 03:40:33 macro expansion happens "before" eval, in a way - expansion is evaluated. 03:40:40 but we can modify the evaluator, too, by redefining eval. 03:40:49 macro expanders can be written... in scheme. 03:41:01 so, the implementation has to be able to... vector to interpreted code. 03:41:06 which hurts my brain slightly. 03:41:10 since, my implementation is in C :P 03:41:29 :) So, however do I handle the situation of macro-expanders, read-tables, eval? 03:41:39 Some people have said, implement a "core subset", interpret that. 03:41:39 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:41:45 and build the rest of hte system, on top of that interpreted core language. 03:42:02 ie: write a "real eval", in the interpreted core language - that supprots the "full language". 03:42:05 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:42:10 but that seems kind of inefficient. 03:42:29 Not bad, Adamant :) 03:43:23 I think how expanders and all, fit in, will become a lot clearer after I get a "basic test" interpreter running :) 03:43:35 ie: Read-eval-print ... the hook for a macro-expander could be between read and eval. 03:43:51 who knows :) 03:44:01 dunno. most of my compiler knowledge is theoretical and not practical. 03:44:03 the mechanics of how to vector to interpreted code, also, will probably b ecome far clearer. 03:44:23 working on the build a basic Scheme in Haskell tutorial 03:44:35 :) fun. 03:44:47 I'm learning compiler stuff, by trying to create a scheme compiler. 03:44:51 since I'd rather use Haskell than C to do it in 03:44:56 yeah 03:45:04 but I realize to make the best of compilation, I need an interpretive step - to perform some decent analysis. 03:45:20 ok, so are you trying to compile to a bytecode? 03:45:28 elderK: that's a funky problem I ran up against, what do you implement in C first? 03:45:30 aye - or machine code. 03:45:35 then interpret the bytecode? 03:45:47 It'll be bytecode first most likely. 03:45:53 cool 03:45:54 tbh, I've been pondering mroe than coding :) 03:46:09 Researching, if you will. 03:46:17 bytecolor: aye. 03:46:33 elderK: you could write to LLVM 03:47:12 bytecolor: in the end though, all the forms - even the 'fancy ones', will distill down to the set that the compiler/interpreter itself understands - the "extra bolting" added by the interpreted-eval, extended - that say, supports macros, would become compiled - 03:47:21 and if so, calling that - wouldn't be so difficult. 03:47:31 which, in the same way, vectoring to bytecode wouldn't be difficult either, really. 03:47:39 since, it's still just code - and the "forms" would distill. 03:48:06 or so I hope :) 03:48:16 I'm really hoping I met more people interested in implementation of Scheme or suchlike, 03:48:20 it'd be cool to get some discussion down :D 03:48:29 FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-55-41.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 03:48:53 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:49:14 Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@rn--vse-1-1-a29.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 03:49:47 elderK: Let me see if I rightly understand you. 03:50:05 Are you asking how a compiler written in Scheme that is meant to compile Scheme even gets running in the first place? 03:50:59 elderK: I don't have my copy of Queinnec handy, but it goes into phase separation at some length. Hie thee hence and read therein. 03:51:26 elderK: You should attend the Scheme workshops. 03:51:43 arcfide: not scheme written in scheme :) atm, I'm working on scheme interpreter written in C :) 03:52:00 but, obviously, with things like extensible macro-expanders, read-tables - that pass to scheme procedures, etc, 03:52:04 elderK: So, your question is how you expand Scheme code? 03:52:38 tjaway [n=timj@e176195006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:52:44 well - the question is this, Iguess: If the interpreter is written in C - and read and the like - then we probably understand some scheme subset. 03:52:49 elderK: I think you'll be better served if you write your interpreter in the language you target, namely, Scheme. 03:52:50 If we have hooks to allow for expanders, etc, 03:53:03 and the replacement of read/eval, etc. 03:53:14 then we're going to need to vector to that interpreted code, when we expand macros, etc. 03:53:26 I do not understand what you mean by vector. 03:53:26 whyfore, arcfide? 03:53:35 jump to. 03:53:37 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:53:45 sorry, vector -> immediately jump to, think interrupts in hardware. 03:53:50 elderK: Because it's nicer to write Scheme code than it is to write C code? 03:54:06 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:54:07 It's part of hte project, to understand the implementation of Scheme in C. 03:54:13 Hooks to expanders? 03:54:28 :) what if you want to change macro expanders? 03:54:31 elderK: I don't know many Scheme implementations that actually use C as the primary language of implementation. 03:54:41 Guile 03:54:44 SCM 03:55:15 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:55:33 Not the two best examples of Scheme implementations, elderK, but I also think that Guile is written mostly in Scheme, and I'd best most of the components that users see in SCM are also written in Scheme. 03:55:36 :) In any case, it must be possible. 03:55:49 elderK: Yes, but you don't want to implement LIST in C. 03:55:50 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:56:07 LIST? 03:56:40 I wouldn't want to implement FOLD or SORT in C either. 03:56:48 Or APPEND. 03:56:51 Generally the approach I feel I will take is, support a core subset of scheme - and implement the rest in that. 03:57:04 You wouldnt. 03:57:04 :P 03:57:08 Yes, so that's different than wriing the whole thing in C. 03:57:16 Yes. 03:57:20 I implemented the pair in C++, wasn't too bad ;) cons, car, cdr set-cdr! set-car! I don't think it was very ummmm robust, though ;) 03:57:28 What you are doing is providing core forms, or a Scheme microcode, more or less. 03:57:34 aye 03:57:45 That's different. 03:57:47 arcfide: that isn't what messes me up. 03:57:59 There's precious little that really needs to be implemented in C then. 03:58:03 what messes me up - is when you get to allowing macros and the like... 03:58:11 if you redefine read, which is a C routine, 03:58:20 or replace eval, etc. 03:58:24 Why is READ a C routine? 03:58:43 EVAL needn't be a C routine either. 03:59:00 Your macro expanders also probably should be written in Scheme. 03:59:02 They could be defined in Scheme - and use C gates to other things... 03:59:13 arcfide: see that's what got me, you can implement the very basic core forms in C/C++, but how efficient will it be with the rest in Scheme? 03:59:34 bytecolor: You've heard of Gambit, Chez Scheme, and Larceny, right? 03:59:42 arcfide: I figure you see something I dont - but, consider - the actual bytecodification and interpretation of the bytecode, is in C. 04:00:05 bytecolor: Especially Chez Scheme, I know is written in almost all Scheme. 04:00:12 sure, I suppose if you want real speed you are going to use compiled code 04:01:25 elderK: The codification need not be, and the bytecode is essentially just a binary representation of the core forms of your program, soo..., that's not much more difficult than just having a microcode that accepts a binary form. In fact, why not have your interpreter only accept microcode? 04:01:33 elderK: Also, that's sort of a compiler now. :-) 04:01:59 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has left #scheme 04:02:30 ~_~ you still need IO. Say, you have your bytecode interpreter. 04:02:34 you need to compile something for it to run. 04:02:34 :) 04:02:40 How would you provide READ? 04:02:42 elderK: Anyways, a macro expander is just a program that takes in a representation of Scheme code, and an environment, and proceeds to expand that Scheme code, outputing as the result another (possibly same) representation of Scheme code, with the additional restrictions that all the forms are converted to core forms. 04:02:49 you'd need ways to read from strings or terminal. 04:03:10 Aye, I know, arcfide. 04:03:20 It's the details that I am likely overcomplicating :) 04:03:33 You may need to implement a core form for dealing with input and output. Maybe an internal read-char, open-input-file, and so forth. 04:03:50 Aye - and those would be routed to C routines. 04:03:53 or compiled code, anyway. 04:04:05 elderK: Have you checked out riaxpander and the relevant papers from Dybvig and the like on Macro expansion? Especially some of the older ones that focus on the simple issues? 04:04:07 the other thing is - what if the user wants to redefine read-char, etc? 04:04:15 I have 04:04:25 :) those were all mostly the first things I started studying up on. 04:04:29 elderK: There may very well be a $read-char core form which is entirely written in C. 04:04:59 so people creating a new read-char, say, for the hell of it - would need to be aware of these internal "gates". 04:05:02 I call em gates for now. 04:05:07 C calls, accessible from Scheme. 04:05:08 elderK: Code is evaluated in some given environment. That environment contains the binidngs from names to locations. If an user redefines a binding, then the environment changes. 04:05:23 aye. 04:05:49 (define (read-char ip) (unless (input-port? ip) (error ---)) ($read-char ip)). 04:05:53 elderK: are you sticking to R5RS ? 04:06:01 yes 04:06:02 That might be an example of how you would define READ-CHAR in your interpreter. 04:06:26 Other's who want to define their own READ-CHAR in Scheme don't get $read-char. 04:06:31 They get read-char. 04:06:44 and build up from them, gotch 04:06:46 a 04:06:49 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-33-82.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:07:26 *elderK* ponders JIT compilation 04:07:36 (to native code) 04:08:18 Have you read the papers on incremental compilation? 04:08:24 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176209006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:09 elderK: It may help if you think like this: 04:09:21 I have read the ones by hte Ikarus guy? 04:10:30 Your microcode interprets programs in some representation (simply a list of core forms and the data, &c.), and your main interpreter reads input from a REPL, passes the list to the macro expander, whose output is then passed to the microcode for evaluation. 04:10:40 elderK: Yes, from Aziz and from Dybvig. 04:11:00 I think I'll wait until I grok Scheme before I attempt an interpreter again. Scheme itself is not a complex language at all, but what you can *do* with the langauge is fsckin amazing ;) 04:12:45 click 04:12:52 Thanks arcfide :D 04:12:59 I think I just realized something :D 04:14:48 elderK: why don't you dig deep into chicken and see exactly how they do it? 04:15:03 :) I will. 04:15:12 I intend / am doing the same with other implementations too 04:15:21 I'm looking for 'simple' implementations first though, obviously :) 04:15:27 I'm no genius! 04:16:09 writing a scheme interpreter in scheme just seems like cheating to me 04:16:36 you can do that in one line of code ;) 04:17:13 :P yeah, same here. 04:18:43 now if you start with read-char, it would be a bit more interesting, but still 04:19:03 aye. 04:20:01 mmmulani [n=mmmulani@nat/uwaterloo/x-xqiirytrenfoujsv] has joined #scheme 04:20:11 elderK: You probably don't want to see what Chicken does at the moment. A simpler interpreter is probably better than the rather advanced system that Chicken has. 04:20:35 bytecolor: How many C compilers are written in something besides C? 04:20:36 :-) 04:20:48 I wonder if there are any scheme implementations written with a compiler compiler. Probably the wrong way to go, eh? 04:20:52 elderK: you've read LiSP? 04:21:00 in the REPL of DrScheme, is the value computed by the last expression stored in any definition? 04:21:06 bytecolor: Eventually, the point of the compiler is to be self-hosting, I would think. 04:21:23 mmmulani: * ** *** ? just a guess 04:21:23 aye, exactly. 04:21:25 bootstrap 04:21:26 So you may be able to write the interpreter in Scheme in one line, but that still depends on another implementation of Scheme to run. it's not standalone, that's the fun part. 04:22:00 bytecolor: * gives me some # 04:22:17 mmmulani: nod 04:23:28 mmmulani: ignore that ;) 04:24:44 hrm, I *do* have drscheme installed... 04:25:00 I figure you build an interpreter, in which you write the compiler, in which you write a better interpreter :P 04:25:22 eventually, you produce a native compiler/interpreter, from within the crappy nonnative one. 04:25:26 hello. noob question, how do i delete the first character of a string if it's a whitespace? i tried (string-delete s char-whitespace? 0 0) but it doesn't work. 04:25:40 using guile here. 04:26:02 kind of like how I imagine C started off - someone wrote a crappy C compiler in Assembly. Then they wrote a better compiler in C - then a better assembler probably. 04:26:08 until it was fully self sustaining. 04:26:17 -!- Terminus1 is now known as Terminus 04:28:20 Terminus: Are you trying to trim whitespace, or are you just checking for the first character and wanting to remove that one? 04:28:34 arcfide: trying to trim both at start and end of the string. 04:28:56 Terminus: Check out SRFI 13, which includes string-trim-both. 04:29:03 arcfide: oh. thanks! 04:29:34 Terminus: If this is for a learning experience, then writing your own using substring and family is educational. 04:32:51 arcfide: it's both but i'm just leaning towards just getting it to trim. i'm not used to calling functions in scheme yet. if i was writing my own, i could use substring or convert it to a list and process that right? 04:33:14 rather, calling is easy but i'm not used to the scheme libs yet. 04:34:12 Terminus: The technique I would use would be to have to procedures, one which searches for the first non-whitespace character in the string, and returns its index, and a second procedure which does the same from the rear (these could actually be one procedure), and then use these in two calls to represent the ranges in the call to substring. This means that you aren't doing unnecessary allocation, and it works pretty well. 04:34:41 arcfide: i see... yeah, that would be shorter. hehe 04:35:14 right now i'm just reading a file and trimming each line. 04:36:04 trying to inject $1 $2 etc. vars into a grammar is a trip. (* (/ #\x #\y) #\z) => /'s scope: $1 = #\x, $2 = #\y, *'s scope: $1 = (#\x or #\y) $2 #\z 04:39:14 bytecolo` [n=user@32.157.67.113] has joined #scheme 04:41:42 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.154.101.92] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:41:58 -!- bytecolo` is now known as bytecolor 04:42:25 mbohun [n=mbohun@202.124.75.140] has joined #scheme 04:43:42 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-55-41.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:46:43 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:47:14 Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 04:51:07 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 04:54:28 -!- Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit ["The Lord of Murder Shall Perish."] 04:58:24 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 05:14:16 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:42 jonrafkind 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has joined #scheme 08:04:12 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-224-32.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 08:04:14 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-54-82-251-115-240.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:00 hi 08:10:13 hmmm.. (define ((x)) 1) 08:10:27 what's a rational to have this syntax? 08:10:59 Isn't that the currying syntax? 08:11:33 dunno, I just realized this 08:11:34 ie, that's (define (x) (lambda () 1)) 08:13:07 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:13:26 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:13:52 Weird syntax. 08:14:06 the formal's value is never used? 08:14:34 There's no argument 08:14:37 The procedure is name x 08:14:39 named 08:16:11 Ohhh, right. 08:16:24 Sorry, my bad. 08:16:28 Maybe I need some of that coffee after all :) 08:16:35 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@static-71-98-246-124.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:16:56 is this syntax in standard? i checked in plt and chicken. 08:16:56 A better example would be: (define ((plus x) y z) (+ x y z)) 08:17:05 ((plus 1) 2 3) => 6 08:17:18 http://chicken.wiki.br/man/4/Extensions%20to%20the%20standard 08:17:20 This syntax isn't in the standard, but it is common. 08:17:24 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@static-71-98-246-124.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:17:42 I don't think there's even an srfi for it, which is kinda strange if it's as common as Daemmerung says 08:17:49 aye. 08:19:50 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:21:20 I don't see the need? It's clearer to write (define (plus x) (lambda (y z) (+ x y z))) no? 08:21:38 I feel it is clearer the way you say, CK 08:22:14 No more than (define plus (lambda (x) (lambda (y z) (+ x y z)))) is clearer than the usual. 08:22:26 *Daemmerung* has no strong feelings about it 08:22:41 :P I do think the long way is clearer... 08:22:42 :P 08:22:47 but then, I'm crazy ^_^ 08:33:18 I guess you could bend 'define' any ways you like with define-syntax 08:37:03 on the other hand the short form is just the shortened (define (f x) x) taken a step further 08:37:07 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-125-199-31-117.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:37:10 foof [n=user@FL1-125-199-31-117.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 08:38:28 o_O 08:38:40 (define (f x) x) == identitty? 08:38:48 s/ty/y/ 08:39:47 you said titty ... mehehe 08:40:00 lol 08:40:01 :P 08:42:59 hrm, you can't define `define' in scheme, can you? 08:45:00 > (define (define x) 1) 08:45:01 > (define 1) 08:45:01 1 08:45:57 but now top-level define is toast, no? 08:46:49 yeah 08:48:27 bytecolor: scheme just has one namespace, so defining define is possible 08:49:56 but I mean a define that can intern symbols at the top-level like (define x 3) 08:50:20 so define has to be written in the implementation language 08:52:21 define is just a special form, it comes down in the end as set! 08:53:26 it is not! ;) 08:53:33 > (set! x 1) 08:53:33 set!: cannot set undefined identifier: x 08:53:40 but you can't set! a top level var unless it has been defineD, yes? That's what really messed with me when trying to implement an iterpreter 08:54:20 it's the chicken and egg, what to write in C/C++ etc. what to leave to be a macro or procedure 08:54:30 rmrfchik: I omitted the part where the symbol is added to the environment 08:55:01 bytecolor: some interpretes let you do that 08:55:07 nod 08:55:42 bytecolor: if you are interested in that stuff i recommend the book 'Lisp in small pieces' 08:58:34 bytecolo` [n=user@32.156.181.164] has joined #scheme 08:58:53 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.157.67.113] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:59:00 -!- bytecolo` is now known as bytecolor 09:00:02 this usb modem just isn't all that. seems it only disconnects when I start chatting ;) 09:00:28 bytecolor: if you are interested in that stuff i recommend the book 'Lisp in small pieces' 09:01:17 bytecolor: It has anti-procrastination features? :) 09:01:25 heh 09:01:32 ah, I've heard of it. I finished Dybvig's book, read most of the little/seasoned schemer 09:01:38 sjamaan: ahaha 09:02:07 I need to spend more time with little/seasoned schemer, hella good books 09:02:50 Also get Reasoned Schemer 09:02:55 It's different, but also nice 09:03:28 hrm, might order both right now, maybe a package deal, that's how I got the last three 09:09:51 I got rid of the regular expression as a primitive parser in my parser. It was too easy to abuse, I could concoct a large re, but if it failed, I'd have to way to tell *where* it failed, for error messages. 09:11:43 I just allow character classes now, (cc "[a-zA-Z0-9_]"), got rid of || for alternates too, use / instead. It works like PEGs, which is a hella cool for grammars. 09:17:13 bytecolor: you from the Bay Area? 09:17:37 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:18:06 just a random guess, lots of 'hella' 's :P 09:18:22 ahaha, sacramento 09:18:31 close enough! 09:18:58 our resident Google linguistic overlord should give me a cookie for that one :P 09:20:36 jcowan's kind of disappeared 09:20:40 eheh, well If you heard me speak in person, you'd think differently I was raised in NC, so I have a not-too-heavy southern accent. 09:20:53 what part of NC/ 09:21:04 Eastern or Yankee Containment Zone 09:21:19 Asheville and Statesville 09:21:23 ah 09:21:30 Ashville's beautiful 09:21:57 nod, it's a very cool town, sort of a melting pot in the middle of the blue ridge mountains 09:22:01 yeah 09:22:51 bouncing around the SE myself 09:23:05 going to end up in the Pac Northwest in all likelyhood 09:23:35 the bay area has all kinds of meet-up eh? python, lisp, scheme 09:23:55 havent been any, need to get around to that 09:23:56 well yeah, it's the software capital of the US and probably the world 09:24:04 nod 09:24:21 Mumbai's probably going to make a run on that title sooner or later 09:24:56 Is that in India? 09:25:00 yup 09:25:26 nod, tons of software developers there 09:26:04 can't remember which has more developers, Mumbai or Bangalore 09:26:08 if china wasn't so `closed' it would probably be a mecca for developers 09:26:34 China has some talented folks, but they don't mesh quite as well 09:26:57 and China isn't pushing software firms as hard as India is 09:27:46 hate to say it but the US will *not* be the center of the world in the future 09:27:48 China kind of veered more toward manufacturing, and because manufacturing had a lot of government controls in India, the Indians kind of veered towards software and IT type stuff 09:27:57 I agree 09:28:39 things are evening out more in both places with regards to the IT/manufacturing split. 09:29:52 US is going to end up with about 500 million folks by 2050ish, I thought 09:29:53 that's what I like about open software, doesn't matter where you are from, "Can you write kick ass code?" is the only question that need be answered 09:30:02 yeah 09:32:18 hmm, looks like the projections are more 420 million-ish 09:32:52 still, that puts US third for total population behind India and China, assuming you don't count the EU as a whole. 09:33:01 sjamaan: that sounds like a good book, think I'll order it... well except for the one ass hat reviewer babbling on and on about Haskell in a Scheme book review ;) 09:34:25 bytecolor: LiSP? 09:34:28 wow, $85 US for lisp in small pieces 09:34:30 definitely get that 09:34:33 yes 09:34:35 it is expensive 09:34:49 not a lot of runs done anymore, I don't think. 09:34:57 Adamant: I was referring to the reasoned schemer to sjamaan 09:35:00 heh 09:35:10 ah 09:36:16 Wow, "autodidact" is a blowhard's blowhard. 09:36:33 --> bytecolor 09:37:04 hehe 09:38:07 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 09:38:39 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:38:42 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:40:34 I have spent > $85 for a single book, but I think I'll pass for now 09:41:49 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:05 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 09:44:31 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:45:12 LiSP? The translation is a little funky, too. I wish my French were better.... I guess I should be grateful that it was ever translated into English at all. 09:46:17 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has left #scheme 09:46:28 ;) 09:46:35 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:46:51 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:50:16 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:52:44 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 09:54:01 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 09:57:01 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:57:11 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:05:57 Huh. The "curried procedure" define syntax was present in R2RS, but removed from R3RS. 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:15:15 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-116.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 10:20:32 Mr-Cat [n=Bahirkin@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 10:20:39 TR2N` [n=email@89.180.235.181] has joined #scheme 10:21:48 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:26:35 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:28 -!- devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-151.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [] 10:27:49 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.235.181] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:00 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 10:40:25 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 10:45:16 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:01 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #scheme 10:46:39 Daemmerung: A piling feature on top of feature thing? :) 10:48:40 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:50:05 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 10:53:03 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 10:53:11 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:53:19 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 10:54:52 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 10:59:35 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 11:00:50 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Client Quit] 11:02:16 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:19 alvatar [n=alvatar@182.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 11:06:59 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:10:54 Summermute [n=Summermu@c-68-55-210-226.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:13:41 masm [n=masm@bl5-104-169.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:13:50 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 11:14:07 -!- Leonidas1 is now known as Leonidas 11:27:57 -!- elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [] 11:49:25 -!- Mohamdu [n=Mohamdu@129-97-208-234.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:49:26 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 12:04:13 eclugtesting [n=mona@212.33.202.106] has joined #scheme 12:06:27 -!- eclugtesting [n=mona@212.33.202.106] has left #scheme 12:15:52 alaricsp [n=alaric@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 12:32:50 In PLT, I have defined a macro that expands to an include form. Why doesn't it work? 12:35:14 I just did (define-syntax-rule (my-include x) (include x)). Now, if I use include, it works as expected. If I use my-include, it acts as if I did nothing; the file is not included. 12:40:55 tictactorque [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #scheme 12:47:31 eclugtesting1 [n=mona@212.33.202.106] has joined #scheme 12:47:34 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:47:43 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:50:13 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-125-199-31-117.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:50:16 foof [n=user@FL1-125-199-31-117.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 12:51:07 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:55:24 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-203-30-77.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 12:56:35 Solved. my-expand should expand to include-at/relative-to. 13:01:27 -!- eclugtesting1 [n=mona@212.33.202.106] has left #scheme 13:02:44 alvatar_ [n=alvatar@5.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 13:03:18 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-125-199-31-117.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:03:20 foof: chibi-scheme is yours, right? 13:03:21 foof [n=user@FL1-125-199-31-117.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 13:03:25 foof: chibi-scheme is yours, right? 13:03:35 ecraven: yep 13:04:00 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@182.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:04:03 i have a problem with building the package automatically under arch linux.. you use /usr/bin/env chibi-scheme in a few scripts, which doesn't work well 13:04:26 it can't find the executable unless i use ./chibi-scheme, and even then it can't find libchibi-scheme.so 13:04:45 Well, the Makefile scripts all explicitly set LD_LIBRARY_PATH 13:05:05 Does arch linux not have /usr/bin/env ? 13:06:00 it does. make alone works, but makepkg (the package builder) doesn't. it uses fakeroots and whatnot.. i'm not sure *what* is to blame, still trying to find out 13:06:09 huh 13:08:12 I suppose if it does a chroot, the built chibi-scheme executable may no longer be in "." 13:08:13 also libchibi-scheme.a isn't generated (but make install tries to install it) 13:08:47 make install only tries to install it if it's there - there's a "-" prefix to ignore errors 13:09:05 hm.. that doesn't seem to work on my make ;) 13:09:14 You don't use GNU make? 13:09:30 gnu make 3.81 13:09:41 ah, Error 1 (ignored) 13:09:44 that is not the actual problem 13:09:51 right 13:09:52 running ldconfig is ;) 13:10:12 Why, what error does ldconfig give you? 13:10:28 can't create temporary cache file /etc/ld.so.cache~ 13:10:39 i'm not root, but a user 13:11:14 Ah... right, I assumed people would want to install as root, but that's not always the case. 13:11:35 I suppose it's easiest to just also prefix that line with a "-". 13:11:56 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@60.211.210.142] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:15:21 ecraven pasted "chibi-scheme make errors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93682 13:15:31 foof: that's the output i get 13:15:42 for some reason that error about chibi-scheme doesn't kill make 13:16:08 /usr/bin/env: chibi-scheme: No such file or directory 13:17:21 It looks like arch is running the build in parallel. 13:17:35 foof: In archlinux the package is usually made by making and make-installing as normal user (with fakeroot magic, I suppose) and setting `output-dir' for make install 13:17:50 ah, i think i specified -j8 somewhere 13:17:56 Anyway, just comment out the ldconfig line (or prefix it with "-") and it should work (though the c libs won't be built). 13:18:03 jimrees [n=jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 13:18:10 I will add a "-" myself later. 13:18:50 That's the only fatal error. The PATH problems are something weird with the arch linux build env. 13:19:06 ok, make -j1 fixed it ;) thanks for the help! 13:19:28 i should clean up my path ;) 13:19:41 "make -j1" fixed the PATH problems? That means it was trying to build the libs at the same time as it was building chibi-scheme. 13:20:03 Ah... I can fix that in the Makefile. 13:20:24 The rule for running genstubs should depend on chibi-scheme. 13:22:40 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:22:43 i've committed a working version, so people on arch linux can use the newest and greatest chibi scheme ;) 13:22:51 i've also committed EuScheme ;) fun to play with 13:23:16 Cool - if you've needed to make any other changes send them to me and I can commit them upstream. 13:24:00 nope, only adding the - for ldconfig, and the serialising 13:24:14 both of those should go away if you fix upstream ;) 13:30:21 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:30:21 -!- ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:30:21 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:30:21 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net 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[n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:19 eclugtesting [n=mona@212.33.202.106] has joined #scheme 13:48:03 -!- eclugtesting [n=mona@212.33.202.106] has left #scheme 13:49:12 masm [n=masm@bl10-245-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 13:51:08 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-21.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:58:41 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:09:56 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 14:10:23 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:14:15 can i take this as evidence that chicken doesn't use shared memory for substring/shared? 14:14:20 incubot: (let ((string (string #\1 #\2 #\3))) (string-set! (substring/shared string 1) 0 #\4) string) 14:14:21 123 14:14:30 otherwise, i'd get 143; it seems 14:16:58 rdd [n=user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:17:22 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-178.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:19:29 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:32 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:18 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 14:27:50 Daemmeru` [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 14:28:16 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29:55 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:29:55 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:29:55 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:29:55 -!- z0d 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Guest38344 is now known as attila_lendvai 15:05:43 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:06:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:08:39 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.198.57] has joined #scheme 15:10:25 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:12:01 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 15:12:35 -!- gabot [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:27:04 gabot [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:28:09 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:28:13 gabot: slap all bots 15:28:14 *gabot* slaps sepult, felipe, mmmulani, eno_, luz, mmc, blackened`, Pepe_, NNshag, MichaelRaskin, lolcow, clog, tjaway, araujo, tomaw__, elf, erg, Leonidas, cmatei, XTL, SharkBrain, nothingHappens, mhoye, dlouhy, Mr_Awesome, Checkie, dfeuer, olejorgenb, Obfuscate, bzzbzz, ski, emma, antoszka, ray, masm, rdd`, a-s`, Guest2003, bytecolor, rmrfchik, guenthr, saccade, kniu, gnomon, Len__, happycube, Edico, alaricsp, z0d, nutmegmagi, lisppaste, sstrickl, MrFa 15:28:21 *eli* slaps gabot 15:28:30 mmmmm 15:28:36 hey 15:28:39 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 15:28:50 Ouch. 15:28:56 *foof* passes the Turing test! \o/ 15:29:03 hkBst__ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 15:29:05 gabot: slap all bots 15:29:05 *gabot* slaps ccl-logbot, rudybot and specbot 15:29:18 that's better 15:29:18 That's better. 15:29:37 foof: Apologies for lowering your grade again. 15:29:56 eli, Maybe you should have used "all bots and only bots" from the beginning 15:30:22 Actually I should have removed an offending "#;" used for debugging. 15:32:57 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:33:03 -!- hkBst__ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:33:22 hkBst__ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 15:33:43 gabot: slap rudybot 15:33:44 *gabot* slaps rudybot 15:33:48 gabot: slap offby1 15:33:48 *gabot* slaps offby1 upside the haid 15:37:29 damn, I hate debugging macros.... especially my platform-specific ones :( 15:38:11 gabot slaps gabot 15:38:12 *gabot* pretends to be busy with ... stuff 15:38:18 gabot slaps gabot slaps gabot 15:38:18 *** uncaught exception: reference to undefined identifier: slaps; aborting 15:38:20 Not. 15:38:24 lol 15:38:45 gabot slaps gabot slaps gabot 15:38:45 *gabot* is busy gossiping with rudybot 15:39:04 gabot slaps   15:39:05 *gabot* stares blankly 15:39:33 .me is impressed :) 15:40:07 gabot eval slaps 15:40:08 *** uncaught exception: reference to undefined identifier: eval; aborting 15:40:10 I kid, I kid. 15:40:59 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:43:57 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-116.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:44:21 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:45:45 -!- Guest2003 [n=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:52 incubot [n=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 15:46:03 foof` [n=user@FL1-125-199-31-117.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 15:49:35 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@5.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:03 hkBst___ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has joined #scheme 15:51:04 alvatar [n=alvatar@201.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:00:42 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-125-199-31-117.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:09 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@201.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:02:34 alvatar [n=alvatar@201.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:05:51 bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:08:03 -!- hkBst__ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 16:09:34 -!- nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:10:12 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:10:32 leppie: "slap", not "slaps". 16:10:48 lol 16:10:48 doh :( 16:11:05 gabot: slap gabot 16:11:05 *gabot* slaps stepnem 16:11:05 gabot: slap gabot 16:11:06 *gabot* slaps eli 16:11:10 heh 16:11:12 Like that. 16:14:21 Provided I'd like to implement a simple imperative dynamic language as plt scheme lang - are there any sample langs I should check out? 16:15:01 Mr-Cat1: That depends on what you mean by "imperative dynamic". 16:15:08 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 16:15:39 eli: Well... Something more close to python or lua than scheme 16:16:43 I think you'll find Lua more pleasant on the implementation front than Python. 16:18:05 Mr-Cat1: That's still not enough details. 16:18:41 Mr-Cat1: I suspect that you have a particular sense for "dynamic" that requires explaining. 16:18:57 Specirfically, what is it that you need want you don't get in Scheme. 16:19:10 s/Specirfically/Specifically/ 16:19:35 eli: Ok. I think, lua is the most precise example of what I mean by "imperative dynamic" 16:19:59 Mr-Cat1: Can you answer that question? 16:21:20 eli: It's not about I want something that I don't get in scheme. 16:22:09 Mr-Cat1: If scheme gives you what you need, then you don't need to implement a new language. 16:23:41 eli: I've read your paper: http://tmp.barzilay.org/tutorial.txt (btw, is it a draft for your defun 2009 presentation?) and now I'm curious how a simple but `different in s/their/its semantics and s/their/its syntax' language can be implemented as a plt scheme lang. 16:24:10 eli: I'm not trying to solve a specific task by implementing a language atop of scheme. 16:24:17 Mr-Cat1: Yes, that's a draft for that presentation. 16:25:02 As for your question -- it's unclear to me what you're after: some random new language to see how easy it is to make one, some new semantics (for something "dynamic" in some way), or a new concrete syntax. 16:25:32 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:26:04 Implementing a new semantics for whatever construct you want is relatively easy, and is covered by that text. Implementing a new syntax is more involved, since implementing parsers is usually more difficult. I plan to add some simple example for that in the (near, hopefully) future. 16:26:06 eli: The first: some not completely random and new (something similar to lua or io) language to see how easy it is to make one 16:26:37 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 16:26:41 Sorry, I don't know enough about lua to know about some features of the language that are not already present in the `scheme' language. 16:27:41 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:28:58 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 16:32:11 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 16:34:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:35:09 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:36:44 eli: Lua's main data type is a hashtable on steroids. Using them lua programmers simulate structures, arrays, prototype-based inheritance, pylymorphism and so on 16:38:36 Mr-Cat1: Yes, I know -- but you can get that in Scheme if all you use only hash tables. 16:41:26 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@217.205.201.45] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:45:24 hi 16:45:33 erm... I'm trying to learn gambit 16:46:01 In the "tour of gambit" or manual it explains "use" and "module" 16:46:08 but they don't seem to be available 16:46:15 (undefined symbols) 16:46:24 someone knows about this? 16:47:40 eli: Yes. As I said I'm not trying to solve a specific problem. I'm just looking for a good example of how things are done when defining a new language on top of plt. I looked at datalog from planet, but I'm not quite good with prolog to fully understand the sources. So I thought there might be a sample implementation of a language which would be more simple for me to read. 16:48:28 alvatar, i would guess the documentation is not up to date. 16:48:50 http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit-c.html does not reference either of those. 16:49:03 slxix: then there is no module system? 16:49:50 alvatar: There's a module system being developed independently called "Black Hole". 16:50:18 alvatar: 16:50:28 bweaver: thanks :) 16:50:43 I actually just want something simple to start with 16:50:52 Mr-Cat1: datalog is not a good example -- instead of compiling to scheme, it's more like an interpreter. 16:51:15 alvatar: Sure! Good luck. Gambit by itself supports: INCLUDE, LOAD, and namespaces. 16:51:30 eli: Any ideas of a better example? 16:51:44 Mr-Cat1: As for the hash table stuff, that looks more like some library that is needed -- you can start with that, and then go on to the language stuff and have common names like `+' that use the library values instead of the usual scheme names. 16:52:00 But that can be done just as will with any types. 16:52:16 bweaver: include brings the source code just like the C includes? 16:52:41 alvatar: Yup, and LOAD loads a dynamic library. 16:52:57 bweaver: great, thanks! That's how I will start 16:53:50 eli: Ok, thanks. 16:59:16 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:00:50 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 17:06:40 -!- Mr-Cat1 [n=Bahirkin@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 17:15:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 17:17:01 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:31:36 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-111-66-37.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:37:55 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:02 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:48:01 -!- saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-24-130-33-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:24 -!- tictactorque [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:24 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:00:09 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:01:51 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:06:59 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 18:11:14 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 18:15:21 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:14 saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:21:07 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@201.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["leaving"] 18:21:40 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-oijanlskwxsdvyqi] has joined #scheme 18:25:56 -!- zoke [n=zoke@rn--vna-1-1-b07.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:26:13 BD|gone [n=zoke@129-97-242-77.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 18:29:40 Mohamdu [n=Mohamdu@129-97-22-86.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 18:29:55 -!- Mohamdu [n=Mohamdu@129-97-22-86.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:06 tictactorque [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #scheme 18:35:37 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:28 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:31 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:45:33 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:50:20 Cheery [n=cheery@a91-155-223-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:50:28 Ideas for a guy who wants to implement a lisp dialect with optimizing compiler? 18:50:42 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93699 18:52:25 I write some pseudocode to rewrite and understand better what I'm doing and how I could do it better. 18:52:33 so brb. 18:59:09 yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #scheme 19:01:17 yvdriess pasted "import rename fail?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93700 19:01:21 greetings, I'm having some issues with porting R5RS SICP code to R6RS 19:01:48 as it defines a new apply, I tried renaming the old apply 19:02:04 which apparently doesn't remove apply from the imported identifiers 19:02:39 mije [n=mije@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:03:21 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:06:13 -!- mije [n=mije@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 19:09:15 mije [n=antoine@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:13:03 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:34 arcfide [i=arcfide@140-182-147-10.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 19:15:50 Good afternoon, y'all. 19:15:59 hi 19:16:07 you'd happen to know about compilers? 19:18:09 Cheery: I know about compilers, to a point. What did you want to know? 19:18:59 I'd need ideas and concepts that help in writing an optimizing compiler for lisp dialect. 19:19:16 there's a very good book I can recommend you for that 19:19:20 lisp in small pieces 19:20:04 I have my first compiler attempt done already, I pasted it before you come around, but I've been writing a speudo code that explains what I'm doing in that otherwise messed up code. 19:21:10 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:21:42 thanks, I'll look at the two compilers described in that book. 19:22:22 all the compiler resources I've found by searching the net have used to be hard to read and complicated. 19:22:49 well, except couple of scheme compiler papers. :) 19:23:36 though they hadn't much about optimizing compilers as subject. 19:24:05 Cheery: What sort of ideas are you looking for? 19:25:23 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:26:24 well, I can answer to that best by describing what kind of compiler in specific I want to create, right? 19:27:35 Cheery: Sure. I guess there's first whatever syntax/semantics/runtime innovations you want to design. Second, based on that, there's implementation strategies. Right? 19:28:01 I don't have syntax innovations at hand, I figured at one point they are pointless. 19:28:18 others I do have. 19:28:26 I was just listing some typical areas for design 19:29:12 As a Lisp dialect, I presume the syntax will be some s-expr variant (CL, Scheme, etc.) 19:29:21 I'm quite not interested in compiler that optimizes the code globally because the bottlenecks often appear in small portion of the application. 19:29:46 Interprocedural register allocation? 19:29:50 so I'm interested in a compiler that can optimize some portions of the code into bare bones. 19:30:14 "bare bones" - more? 19:30:45 yvdriess: your first library clause should be (except (rnrs base) apply) 19:31:34 Daemmerung, the standard says it removes it from the set though 19:31:38 Cheery: Writing good optimizing compilers is a very non-trivial task. You should build your compiler step by step, slowly and carefully, with special attention to where others have gone before you. 19:31:56 There are lot's of papers on optimizations for compilers, and Scheme has plenty of those. 19:32:07 yep, I noticed that by practically smacking into a boundary few days ago. :) 19:32:19 that's why I were writing a dumb compiler for now. 19:32:20 arcfide: truer words were never spoken 19:32:39 Cheery: dumb compillers are still fun :-) 19:32:52 Summermute: and they are where I must start. 19:33:29 Cheery: LiSP is supposed to be good. I have not read it myself. However, Ikarus might be considered "state of the art" when it comes to a certain class of Scheme compiler. If you like the approach taken by Aziz and Kent Dybvig, their papers are of course, something you should examine. Also see the papers that surround the implementation of Larceny, Stalin, and PLT Scheme. 19:33:42 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.156.44.153] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:05 They have good things in them. SICP is a good place to see some approaches to building meta-circular evaluators and I think they do a compiler in there as well. That's another approach, I think. 19:34:30 Likewise, Chicken has plenty of resources surrounding its implementation. 19:34:46 Summermute: the idea would be that I could type-annotate and whatnot portions of my code and get them run faster that way. 19:34:50 choas [n=lars@p5B0DD174.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:34:59 Cheery: Please avoid doing that. :-) 19:35:05 Cheery: If you must go that route, see Bigloo. 19:35:35 I can encourage a few things - record based (nodes) 1st level intermediate representation after parsing to which attributes are easily attached; a good environment/symbol table system; a good "primop" database with type annotations for (EZ) inference 19:35:57 Daemmerung, even with the except, I can't define my own apply 19:36:22 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:36:33 Cheery: Oh, and a reasoable pattern matching based code walker. Ideally one that can handle "generically" inherited and synthesized attributes, but even that's a little bit of a challenge. 19:37:05 BTW - The "code walker" walks the record based IR, not the actual s-expr code. 19:37:25 yvdriess: which Scheme are you using? Works for me in PLT. 19:37:37 (not that PLT is the be-all and end-all of R6RS conformance) 19:37:56 yeah it's PLT 19:38:50 Cheery: if your lisp supports immutable bindings then you can go alot further with some simple optimizations (bindings to constants, bindings to results of operations of known types, known arity and type signatures for functions, etc.) 19:38:54 arcfide: why avoid? I figure that way I could use my language for implementing very performance-dependent code without trouble. It comes relevant if I want to implement my language runtime inside my language. 19:39:07 Daemmerung, is it working on your end in the sense that it prints 3? 19:39:16 because the idea is that apply shouldn't exist :) 19:39:28 Of course, an option for mutable bindings fills in any semantic "blanks" in such a dialect. 19:39:51 Daemmerung annotated #93700 "try this (caveat: I am not a huge R6RS stud)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93700#1 19:40:01 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 19:40:18 Cheery: For one, you don't need it to get fast code, and for a second thing, it's ugly (pesonal opinion). I would much prefer to see a system that does type inference rather than type annotation. Even Haskell favors that approach, and it's a statically typed language. 19:40:46 oh that works 19:40:49 aaah I get it now 19:40:58 the regular (rnrs base) should be removed 19:41:26 thanks Daemmerung 19:41:34 arcfide: But it's a common convention to type annotate function definitions. Preserves sanity when the inferencer reports an error :-) 19:41:51 arcfide: Whoop, I meant in Haskell 19:42:50 Summermute: Yes, and if you like that sort of thing, you write a Haskell compiler. :-) If you write Lisp, in my opinion, you don't want to be annotating your code with types in such an ugly way. But that's my own opinion. Obviously we have people writing Typed Scheme, and things like Bigloo. Typed Scheme is a good deal more elegant, IMO, but it also has zero performance benefit. 19:43:02 Mostly because of the choice of implementation. 19:43:05 arcfide: oh. I did meant to use type-annotations to control type inference 19:43:19 Cheery: I encourage you to take a long look at the typed-scheme dialect. Does a very nice inferencing job, and supports annotations for things like typed record fields and what not. 19:43:45 Cheery: Whoops, typed-scheme dialect of PLT Scheme 19:44:32 It's not like I'd want back to C when I say I want to type-annotate something. :) 19:44:48 arcfide: I *am* bummed that so far typed-scheme gives no performance benefit, especially since mzscheme now has some kind of JIT compiler under the hood. 19:46:38 Cheery pasted "dumb compiler's speudocode" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93701 19:46:49 "speudocode"? 19:47:20 Runs on any potato or other tuber. 19:47:30 I've never been able to see any benefit to using the unsafe fixnum operators in mzscheme, with JIT. 19:47:41 just trying to describe my current compiler without clogging up with uninteresting details 19:47:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93699 here's source code if you like that more 19:47:52 I would guess that would be the best that typed Scheme could do. 19:49:40 bytecolor [n=user@32.159.3.233] has joined #scheme 19:50:27 -!- tictactorque [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:06 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-21.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:51:25 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-21.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 19:51:33 Cheery: Type inference -- at least, how I meant it -- is the identification of a type without the need of explicit type annotations in the code. 19:52:31 d3z: With the addition of vm opcodes for "safe" but "unchecked" operations - say from a soft typer, or typed-scheme - and proper JIT treatment of those vm op codes, typed-scheme could perform significantly better than "regular" scheme 19:53:05 Cheery: If you're trying to do a typed dialect of Lisp, then Typed Scheme is a good example. However, you should note that Chez Scheme is an example of a compiler that does no type inference, even, and is still one of the fastest compilers around. Hopefully, type inference will show up in Chez Scheme, but my main point is that you are making some assumptions about performance and how to achieve it that you should be aware of, since the 19:53:05 generally. 19:53:55 Cheery: However, if I were writing my own compiler, I wouldn't start with a compiler. 19:54:12 what would you start with? 19:55:18 First I would define my language, and then write a sort of meta-circular interpreter in Scheme for that language. Once I had that down, I would then write a fairly dumb compiler for it that compiled to whatever native code I wanted. I would build up to the language, and start very small. I would try to implement as much of the language in itself as I could, and make sure that I kept the microcode small. 19:57:05 only then would I start thinking about optimizations that could be made. 19:57:21 d3z: Try this: http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.ss 19:58:19 What version do I need to get fixnum.ss? 19:58:41 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:59:46 d3z: Use a nightly build (4.2.4 will be out soon, and will have it.) 20:00:29 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 20:00:46 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:04 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:01:07 With 4.2.3, fib3 is about 15% faster, so that's good. 20:01:08 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:09 arcfide: I rather continue with compilers than try specify further my language. It's been fun this far. 20:02:16 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:04:15 d3z: Yes, the simple fixnum operations don't do much. 20:05:34 d3z: Also, this is doing a small amount of fixnum ops, so the benefit is smaller. I've played with a version of the md5 code as a fixnum heavy thing, and after unsafe-ing it, it ran about 4 times faster. 20:13:57 Well, the openssl sha1 is about 6 times faster than the reference implementation, both in C. 20:14:46 *mejja* ponders: http://blogs.sun.com/jag/resource/StandardsPhases.html 20:17:16 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:16 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:50 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:22:09 d3z: (If that was intended for me, then I don't get it.) 20:23:59 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:25:13 -!- Summermute [n=Summermu@c-68-55-210-226.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:34 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:25:41 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:28:24 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:31:24 Is there a public and clean implementation of Olin Shivers' Loop macro around? 20:34:32 lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-1-100.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:35:36 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:45 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:13 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-125-130.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:49:10 I think it's vaporware. A vapormacro. 20:58:13 http://gist.github.com/283185: This evaluates to (#%app + '1 '2), but #%app is not listed here: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/syntax-model.html#%28part._fully-expanded%29 20:58:14 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/y9tkzkt 20:59:10 Is it ok? When I'm trying to use free-vars on the result of expand-syntax, it complains about %app. 20:59:40 My plt is 4.1.5 21:00:06 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:25 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:00:39 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:00:45 What am I doing wrong? 21:00:52 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:03:15 jao [n=jao@72.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:09:06 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:31 arcfide: If there had been, foof-loop may never have been written. 21:12:39 -!- foof` is now known as foof 21:13:01 nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 21:15:32 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-192-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:28 Summermute [n=Summermu@c-68-55-210-226.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:21:41 Mr-Cat: what are you trying to do? 21:24:50 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-245-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:25:16 Daemmerung: The final goal is to get a list of free variables in an expression. 21:25:52 #%app is the primitive applicator. 21:25:55 For now, I'm just trying to figure out how `free-vars' works 21:26:27 rudybot: eval (syntax->datum (expand-syntax #'(+ 1 2))) 21:26:29 Daemmerung: ; Value: (#%app + (quote 1) (quote 2)) 21:28:43 rudybot: eval (require syntax/free-vars) 21:28:49 Mr-Cat: error: with-limit: out of time 21:32:20 -!- mije [n=antoine@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:33:28 Daemmerung: The docs say that free-varf from syntax/free-vars can be used on `expanded' expression to get a list of its `free lambda- and let-bound' identifiers. I don't quite get how can an identifier be both free and bound and didn't manage to get anything other than an empty list from free-vars in repl. But when used in a macro, free-vars just complain that `free-vars: unknown core form: #%app'. 21:34:22 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 21:35:13 *arcfide* sighs. 21:35:31 I'd really like to see Olin's loop macro in a nice form, but his paper scares me whenever I read chapter 11, about implementation. 21:38:24 Hah, Olin's presentation for Dan's birthday is listed as a related video to a Britney Spears video. 21:38:41 I've managed to steer clear of loop, it's enticing, but meh 21:38:52 bytecolor: Meh nothing. :-) 21:38:58 heh 21:40:00 -!- a-s` [n=user@93.112.123.148] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:32 Mr-Cat: (let ((x 1)) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) ; x is free within the lambda, if my understanding of free vars is correct. so it is in fact bound within the let, but free in the lambda 21:42:55 bytecolor: Yep, and now i'm trying to figure out what does free-vars think about such stuff 21:44:57 Besides that, I didn't even manage to pass an expression with free varisbles to `expand' 21:45:47 rudybot: eval (define-syntax (f expr) (syntax-case expr () ((f ex) (expand #'ex)))) 21:45:51 Mr-Cat: your sandbox is ready 21:46:15 rudybot: eval (let ((x 1)) (f (+ 1 2))) 21:46:16 Mr-Cat: error: eval:1:16: compile: unbound identifier (and no #%app syntax transformer is bound) at: #%app in: (#%app + (quote 1) (quote 2)) 21:46:44 Oh 21:51:23 -!- emma [n=em@98.14.22.112] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:37 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 21:52:11 rudybot: init scheme 21:52:17 Daemmerung: your scheme sandbox is ready 21:52:39 Sveklo [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 21:52:40 rudybot: eval (require (for-syntax syntax/free-vars)) 21:52:59 rudybot: eval (define-syntax (fv expr) 21:52:59 (syntax-case expr () 21:52:59 ((fv ex) 21:52:59 (datum->syntax #'fv `(list 21:52:59 Daemmerung: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 21:53:02 ,@(map (lambda (x) `(quote ,x)) 21:53:05 (map syntax->datum 21:53:09 (call-with-values 21:53:12 (lambda () (syntax-local-expand-expression #'ex)) 21:53:15 (lambda (expanded opaque) (free-vars expanded)))))))) )) 21:53:19 21:53:25 oops 21:54:22 sorry for the flood. If you fix my require, define that macro, and apply it like so -- (let ((cthulhu 'fhtagn)) (fv (+ 1 2 cthulhu))) -- you'll get a list (cthulhu). 21:55:26 Daemmerung: Thanks. So, you're using syntax-local-expand-expression instead of expand... Thanks, I'm new to this plt magic... Very confusing magic... 21:56:07 syntax/free-vars is new to me, but you piqued my curiosity. 21:56:11 why would + not be in the list? 21:57:19 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:57:24 Hm... really 21:57:55 because it's the car maybe? 21:58:58 Or it is not bound by lambda but rather is already bound at top level 22:05:50 -!- hkBst___ [n=hkBst@41.184.80.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:46 rudybot: eval (define-syntax (fv2 expr) 22:09:46 (syntax-case expr () 22:09:46 ((fv2 ex) 22:09:46 (datum->syntax #'fv2 `(list ,@(map (lambda (x) `(quote ,x)) 22:09:48 Daemmerung: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 22:09:49 (free-vars (local-expand #'ex 'expression '())))))))) 22:10:09 rudybot: init scheme 22:10:12 Daemmerung: your scheme sandbox is ready 22:10:25 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 22:10:30 rudybot: eval (require for-syntax syntax/free-vars) 22:10:31 Daemmerung: error: eval:1:9: for-syntax: standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found: "for-syntax" in any of: (#) in: for-syntax 22:10:38 heh, those damn parentheses! 22:10:50 *Daemmerung* isn 22:10:55 t paying attention 22:11:04 *Daemmerung* and is typing w/ his elbows, apparently 22:11:16 ONE. MORE. TIME. with feeling.... 22:11:35 *bytecolor* scraped all the symbols off his keyboard keys 22:11:41 rudybot: eval (require (for-syntax syntax/free-vars)) 22:11:48 -!- Cheery [n=cheery@a91-155-223-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:11:50 my friends think me insane 22:11:54 Daemmerung: Aha, mostly the same but with just local-expand... 22:12:05 rudybot: eval (define-syntax (fv2 expr) 22:12:05 (syntax-case expr () 22:12:05 ((fv2 ex) 22:12:05 (datum->syntax #'fv2 `(list ,@(map (lambda (x) `(quote ,x)) 22:12:06 Daemmerung: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 22:12:08 (free-vars (local-expand #'ex 'expression '())))))))) 22:12:29 Bog Damn IT. I give up. 22:13:03 *Daemmerung* goes back to cleaning the kitchen 22:13:06 maybe rudy only reads n lines 22:14:12 rudybot: what is your eval line limit? 22:14:13 bytecolor: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 22:14:17 heh 22:14:39 Yes, bytecolor, for n = 1. 22:15:12 That's a feature. Prevents, ahem, channel flooding. 22:15:20 Thanks, Daemmerung. 22:15:49 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:15:52 st00pid bot! ahahah 22:15:59 Still, I've got to do something to those identifiers, that aren't bound by lambdas (like `+' in this case). 22:16:18 Try fiddling with the namespace. 22:16:32 s/fiddling with/parameterizing 22:16:58 rudybot: help 22:16:59 bytecolor: help [], version, quote, source, seen , uptime, t8 ..., init [], eval ..., give ..., apropos ..., desc , doc , later "tell" ... 22:17:16 Daemmerung: I'm quite new to plt, which functions/macros do you mean, so that I can look them up in the docs? 22:18:59 Seems, that someone has already struggled with free-vars and gave up, according to these thread and piece of code: http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2008-March/023857.html and http://socrates-lang.cvs.sourceforge.net/socrates-lang/socrates/free-vars.ss?revision=1.5 22:19:02 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yb47aaj 22:22:00 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 22:22:52 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DD174.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:23:35 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 22:23:43 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 22:24:15 Doesn't look like Yinso gave up to me. The CVS example seems to predate syntax/free-vars. 22:24:44 Daemmerung: What are you trying to do? 22:25:10 arcfide: put off cleaning my kitchen. 22:25:28 Mr-Cat: look up 15.2 in the Guide. 22:25:28 I don't see what you're trying to do above.... 22:26:21 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #scheme 22:26:28 Dump the output of the `free-vars' helper function. 22:27:08 *jcowan* unvanishes. 22:27:17 *Daemmerung* revanishes. 22:27:56 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:27:57 That's a bit drastic, isn't it? 22:28:34 I will continue to vanish until my just demands are met. 22:29:16 Hmm. I suppose I could try putting `GROUPADD= /usr/sbin/groupadd -r 2000..60000' into the mk.conf used to build the packages in question. 22:29:25 I suppose I could also select the right channel. 22:29:26 Daemmerung: Isn't 15.2 only about `eval'? 22:29:52 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 22:30:09 It's about namespaces in recent versions. 22:30:55 guh, finally got tor working again 22:31:12 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:19 *jcowan* waxes Roth and varnishes him too. 22:31:52 I've heard of ctor and dtor, but not just plain old tor ;) 22:32:39 Daemmerung: I mean doesn't parameterize and stuff affect only eval'ed code? 22:34:32 Obviously you are not a fan of alliums, bytecolor. 22:34:40 bytecolor: Try tor.com 22:34:44 *bytecolor* googles 22:35:42 TR2N` [n=email@89.180.228.84] has joined #scheme 22:35:51 bytecolor, more seriously, try . 22:36:22 oh, *that* tor ;) 22:36:38 Well, I think I should meet my pillow and let my brain have a rest 22:36:46 Thanks all and bye 22:36:56 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:37:07 mbohun [n=mbohun@202.124.72.169] has joined #scheme 22:39:24 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 22:40:04 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@140-182-147-10.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 22:49:43 -!- snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 22:51:49 snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 22:54:02 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.235.181] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:39 masm [n=masm@bl10-245-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 23:01:28 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-233-107-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:02:10 schmir [n=schmir@p54A91E6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:03:39 bytecolor pasted "more funkadelic parsing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93704 23:07:26 borism [n=boris@213-35-233-107-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 23:08:46 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-syrufboohtdykpmr] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 23:10:06 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:15:45 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-111-66-37.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:19:50 hrm, seems as though case will not work there :( 23:29:30 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A91E6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:29:34 ah, (define unspecified 'unspecified) now it will! 23:34:02 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 23:35:35 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:36:24 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #scheme 23:37:01 bweaver` [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:37:07 -!- bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:31 -!- elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:35 elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 23:39:47 elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 23:49:28 devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-151.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #scheme 23:50:22 -!- Checkie [i=402@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:14 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 23:54:11 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.198.57] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:23 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.198.57] has joined #scheme 23:56:09 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:58:00 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]