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ccl-logbot QinGW sphex_ elderK re-l synx JoelMcCracken cky johnnowak cmatei ASau alexsuraci Kusanagi devslashnull specbot minion lisppaste copumpkin charleyb MrFahrenheit jlf` jmcphers leppie SharkBrain mejja stepnem pjb roderic awarrington__ Dawgmatix_ Sergio` kniu jonrafkind bgs100 pavelludiq bytecolor yosafbridge Daemmerung Khisanth clog saccade_ snorble partisan nowhere_man bipt alaricsp olejorgenb samth_away emma uman gnomon Modius 01:41:45 -!- names: mreggen dsmith Len__ mmc jayne dnm_ Foofie mornfall d3z saccade ve jimrees REPLeffect_ incubot z0d TR2N zbigniew Zuu tabe drwho mrd` dlouhy rapacity guenthr Leonidas mbishop rmrfchik chandler peddie joast ironChicken zbrown ecraven erg jyujin nasloc__ Obfuscate Terminus Axioplase_ nothingHappens mhoye offby1 Armageddon00 tizoc eno klutometis BunzOfSteel adzuci_ dfeuer_ bzzbzz sjamaan j0ni Pepe_ nicktastic ineiros rudybot xwl_ brx elly 01:41:45 -!- names: ray Arelius` rotty_ duncanm Prael ski qeb`away antoszka C-Keen tomaw_ gabot jay-mccarthy XTL elf slxix tltstc eli felipe kencausey _Jordan_ 01:47:41 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 01:53:20 tjaway [n=timj@e176217069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 01:53:20 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-139-181.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:53:20 makmanalp [n=legato@80.76.201.55] has joined #scheme 01:53:20 jao [n=jao@232.Red-83-50-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:53:20 saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-98-212-125-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:53:20 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 01:53:20 iaefai [n=iaefai@CPE00195b93b783-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:56:10 jengle [n=jengle@69.0.91.57] has joined #scheme 01:58:47 is there a difference in meaning between the terms "REPL 01:58:51 " and "interpreter" ? 01:59:41 REPL describes a particular user interface. 02:00:18 "Interpreter" is a vague description of an execution strategy. 02:00:59 I see 02:01:01 a repl is an interpreter but an interpreter is not a repl 02:01:24 alexsuraci: could you give an example of a popular interpreter that is not a repl? 02:01:30 A REPL is not necessarily an interpreter, to the extent that anything is an interpreter. 02:02:06 Most better REPLs "compile" (whatever that means) during their val phase. 02:02:40 I think it's clear what "compile" means 02:02:58 To you, what does it mean? 02:03:00 "convert code into a form that is easier or more efficient for a computer to execute" 02:03:16 (usually means machine code, but can also mean Java bytecode or whatever) 02:03:34 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:36 Good enough. Any quality interpreter will do that. 02:07:16 -!- jengle [n=jengle@69.0.91.57] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:31:25 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:24 Checkie [i=19175@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 02:33:56 -!- pjb [n=t@101.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:35:58 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:42:03 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 02:44:20 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 02:50:26 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:51:29 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 02:55:28 Modius_ [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:56:25 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:02:41 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:16:29 r2q2``` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:22:48 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:00 r2q2```` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:20 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-23.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 03:28:27 -!- r2q2```` is now known as r2q2` 03:29:40 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-87.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:35:24 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 03:38:23 -!- r2q2``` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:36 pjb [n=t@210.Red-88-30-126.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:31 tjafk [n=timj@e176198013.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:08:21 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 04:08:33 -!- SharkBrain [n=gerard@210.48.104.34] has quit ["leaving"] 04:08:44 -!- tjaway [n=timj@e176217069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:53 -!- rudybot is now known as rudybot_ 04:29:33 -!- pjb [n=t@210.Red-88-30-126.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:14 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 04:32:26 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:41 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #scheme 04:36:43 -!- iaefai [n=iaefai@CPE00195b93b783-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 04:40:38 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-23.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:42:23 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:46:52 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:51:11 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:59:04 #;3> (fmt #t (radix 16 128)) 04:59:06 #x80.00000000002 05:00:22 #;18> (fmt #f (fix 16 10)) 05:00:23 "10.0000000000000070" 05:01:03 #;23> (fmt #f (fix 20 2/3)) 05:01:04 "2/3" 05:01:19 argh 05:05:57 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-rjskflnwxrgixwgw] has joined #scheme 05:14:15 so I've just done a PLT install on a new machine, and it's spending many minutes reading my not-terribly-large .mzschemerc. It's doing a ton of IO, but no network IO. What could be wrong? 05:15:35 all reads, no writes 05:15:38 offby1: Start with -W to see the logs -- it's probably compiling a bunch of planet requires that you undoubtedly have in your .mzscheme. 05:15:43 yeah 05:16:42 offby1: this is normally where I start with strace, dtruss, etc. 05:16:50 lsof 05:18:19 I didn't learn anything from strace, oddly; it's the first thing I turn to, too 05:18:55 it sure is doin' a lotta PlaneT stuff 05:25:20 well, I've seen lots of stuff scroll by. Nothing new in a while; does that mean the last message I've seen is somehow a clue? 05:27:02 offby1: it regenerates that huge javascript document index blob with every package it installs. Takes for-fecking ever. 05:27:34 hmm 05:27:58 -!- xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:11 *Daemmerung* doesn't have a .mzschemerc, feels left out, wants to be one of the cool kids 05:29:36 I just leave it for a half hour or whatever. Once it finishes propagating ~/.plt-scheme it's pretty quick. 05:30:16 Daemmerung: > ~/.mzschemerc 05:33:42 synx: It's been a while that the documentation index (which is JS, but the generation has nothing to do with JS) is created once when any number of planet packages are installed. 05:34:25 Oh sorry eli, I don't know why it takes so long then. 05:34:25 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:01 synx: Well, it might be some bug, but that's how things should be. 05:36:47 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:38:38 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@dhcp-212-196.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 05:40:33 -!- elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [] 05:45:37 -!- kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:47:14 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:49:58 -!- r2q2` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:55:13 SharkBrain [n=gerard@125-239-134-95.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 06:23:44 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-61-82-250-87-160.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 06:24:20 xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:31:09 -!- xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:31:45 xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:34:57 -!- xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:01 xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:53:41 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07:00 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:07:51 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:10:25 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 07:28:06 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 07:31:39 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-175.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 07:32:26 mmc1 [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 07:32:30 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 07:35:27 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-175.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:36:57 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-175.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 07:44:01 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:45:28 -!- jay-mccarthy [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:51:04 jay-mccarthy [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 07:53:40 -!- mmc1 [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 07:57:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 07:57:53 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:00:26 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:06:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:06:52 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:15:16 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 08:21:34 r6rs.org is down! wahhh wahhhh! and scheme-reports.org! waaahhhhhh!!11!1!!ones!1!! 08:43:18 -!- kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:56 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 08:48:55 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 08:49:47 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 08:52:07 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-23.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 08:56:56 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:03:50 bryanedds [n=bryanedd@adsl-074-171-139-176.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 09:04:43 can anyone point me to a small C or C++ implementation of Scheme, preferably not R5RS 09:04:45 er 09:04:50 preferable R5RS 09:06:10 bryanedds: chibi scheme comes to mind 09:06:32 Otherwise, tinyscheme 09:06:41 thankz sjamaan 09:06:53 yw 09:07:01 I'm implementing a DSL for a game engine at work and looking to avoid R6RS 09:07:13 :) 09:07:42 seems to me that DSL writers would want the smallest possible language 09:07:52 No. 09:08:16 have you seen an opposing case? 09:08:27 The biggest problem that you're likely to see in R6RS is exactly the feature that makes it much better for implementing DSLs. 09:08:35 how so? 09:08:47 Tell me what's the biggest problem you see first. 09:09:20 as an implementor, I don't want to implement a bunch of libraries to be conformant 09:09:36 nego [n=nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:09:48 nor would I ever want to implement a library contrived during a standardization process 09:09:50 Conformance by itself is not an issue in one version any more than it is in another. 09:10:13 And on those grounds, they're also equal. 09:10:50 The feature that by far more people are afraid of (and tend to run away to R5RS because of) is the library system. 09:11:02 not in my opinion 09:11:07 SRFI is optimal 09:11:10 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:11:17 C++ boost has already proven this 09:11:33 (I have no idea what C++ boost is.) 09:11:35 and general engineering principles dictate that reuse is best done a posteriori 09:11:55 You get reuse with both. And you get SRFIs with both. 09:12:11 It's juste a pity that so many implementations don't have full compliant SFRI's, or claim no support at all to implement the stuff "the way they want it". 09:12:31 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 09:12:32 Simple example is hash tables 09:12:48 bryanedds: Anyway, as a DSL implementor, a good module system is the perfect feature because it allows you to come up with completely new languages, without worrying about the bindings that happen to be useful in the Scheme language that you're using. 09:12:57 With or without parametricity of the test function, with delete functions or not, etc 09:13:11 bryanedds: That doesn't have to be R6RS, BTW -- any good module system should give you that feature. 09:13:31 Well, r6rs provides a standard module system 09:13:38 who's to say I need a module system? 09:13:39 Sometimes, standard is better than good. 09:13:45 I just need a language that's easy to implement 09:14:10 bryanedds: No module system is the number one mis-feature of R5RS: you get a single global namespace, and that will eventually become a problem. 09:14:34 If you're talking about scheme, no, I don't think scheme is easy to implement. 09:14:42 so if I need one, I can add one L) 09:14:51 *eli* laughs 09:15:12 "Famous last sentences". 09:15:31 not sure how a global namespace could be a problem in a declarative dsl 09:15:39 perhaps you have an example? 09:15:50 How exactly do you plan to write your DSL? 09:16:11 Boost.Spirit, probably 09:16:40 I have no idea what that means. What I'm asking for is what kind of Scheme code are you planning to write? 09:16:53 For example, one approach is to write an evaluator for your language in Scheme. 09:17:05 eli, use google 09:17:11 Boost does not provide the tools for implementing languages. It merely provides parser combinator frameworks. 09:17:27 Another approach would be to extend and change Scheme itself into your target language using macros and such. 09:17:34 If you just want parser combinator framework, C++ is a terrible choice, because of its insane type system. 09:17:43 Nothing is composable. 09:17:55 bryanedds: How would google help me? 09:18:09 It's not hard to to circumvent C++'s type system 09:18:33 eli, use google on 'boost.spirit' 09:18:34 Then you're just being completely stupid. 09:18:56 well, jafet, that's hardly unepected for someone call to someone stupid on the internet 09:19:04 bryanedds: Yes, I know *how* to use google, and I can see what this thing is, but that still provides zero information on the question I asked. 09:19:31 well, I'm stupid, apparently, so no explanation will be adequate 09:19:34 bryanedds: The main question, that you didn't answer yet (perhaps because you didn't plan ahead that far yet) is what code are you going to be writing in Scheme? 09:19:51 eli, just bugger off 09:19:58 I'll discuss with someone else 09:20:02 *eli* huhs 09:20:04 I didn't say you are stupid, I said your stupidity is conditional on any stupid uses of C++ 09:20:12 same for you Jafet 09:20:14 bryanedds: Did I insult you in any way? 09:20:28 If you just want to find people who will agree with you, IRC is the wrong place to look. 09:20:56 the nice thing about irc is the ignorefeature 09:21:09 ahh, isn't that better 09:21:27 bryanedds: Why bother asking questions if you're not willing to hear answers? 09:21:47 you gonna play nice, eli? 09:22:06 the problem is when you're ignoring someone who's eminently qualified and willing to answer questions about building DSLs with scheme 09:22:13 bryanedds: I'm *willing* to help you, but you need to be willing to conduct a conversation. 09:22:26 well, don't make assumptions about my context 09:22:36 if you listen, I can explain 09:22:42 Mr-Cat [n=Bahirkin@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 09:22:43 but if you won't, I can't 09:22:45 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:56 bryanedds: In case that was for me -- I really didn't make any assumptions. 09:23:06 are you going to listen or are you going to bicker? 09:23:40 *eli* listes 09:23:49 thank you 09:23:50 ok 09:24:12 eli, I'm just going to take my existing XML 'DSL' and port it to sexprs 09:24:21 ok. 09:24:32 I'd like to have a little more than sexpr's for common operations 09:24:37 like and functions 09:24:42 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-23.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:24:47 and other scheme niceities 09:24:52 maybe even lambda 09:25:05 but I don't need many abstraction facilities 09:25:13 Why do you need *scheme* niceties? 09:25:25 for simple query expressions 09:25:25 (As opposed to a different language, that is.) 09:25:40 scheme is just the simple sexpr language I can find 09:25:43 *simplest 09:26:03 over time, I am assuming the dsl will need more features 09:26:08 You're mixing representation (of XML as Sexprs) and language -- those are two different things. 09:26:32 an XML document is a language 09:26:37 So far, it sounds like something like XSLT with a convenient syntax would be what you need. 09:27:13 XSLT is a transformation language 09:27:17 no? 09:27:33 Yes, but what you described had nothing else. 09:27:42 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Bahirkin@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 09:27:57 anyways, there's an isomorphic relationship between an XML language and sexprs 09:28:11 (minus XML attributes, which I don't use anyways) 09:28:25 Mr-Cat [n=Bahirkin@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 09:28:27 XML is basically convoluted sexprs 09:28:27 Actually, I think that I misunderstood you earlier -- I thought that you wanted to implement Scheme to implement a DSL, but it sounds like you're thinking about using Scheme as this DSL -- is this correct? 09:28:55 Scheme is the basis of the DSL 09:29:03 kind of a DSL toolkit 09:29:13 a game engine needs many languages 09:29:14 And you want to implement "some Scheme" with a bunch of your own cooked extensions? 09:29:29 Scheme without abstractions. Sounds like autolisp 09:29:41 s/"some Scheme"/"some of Scheme"/ 09:29:57 A subset of scheme would be the basis of various DSLs 09:30:20 OK, so this is actually closer to what I was originally thinking. 09:30:23 that way the same language needn't be reinvented / reimplemented each time 09:30:48 So you want a small core, with various extensions, each one being its own little DSL, right? 09:30:59 originally I was thinking that sexprs were all that were needed 09:31:14 but I didn't want to reinvent what scheme has already invented 09:31:28 Sexprs cannot be what you're looking for, they're just a representation tool. 09:31:32 basically, yes, a subset of scheme would be the core 09:31:32 *Prael* would look at tinyscheme 09:31:47 each DSL I suppose would be an extension 09:31:50 (Rephrase -- if they are, then you shouldn't be looking at implementing more than a reader.) 09:32:17 OK, so some of these DSLs would have bindings that are different than other DSLs, right? 09:32:39 bindings? 09:32:52 For example, 09:33:27 (tinyscheme looks nice, btw) 09:33:29 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 09:33:37 `+' could be numeric addition in one language, integer addition modulo 2^32 in another, and a generic dispatching function that can do numeric addition or string concatenation in a third language, right? 09:34:30 there's no need for that type of polymorphism, I don't think 09:34:42 the words in each DSL will likely not overlap 09:35:17 If you *know* that they'll never overlap then you're fine with an R5RS scheme; otherwise you're in for "single-namespace hell". 09:35:17 except for what is common, which is monomorphic anyways 09:35:47 lingusitically, they shouldn't overlap since they apply to different domains 09:36:15 and although english overloads words to a great deal, the specialized focus of each dsl should still sidestep the problem 09:36:36 Of course -- but the issue is the concrete syntax that gets used. 09:37:11 If `+' is more conveniet for your users, they will want to use it not `foo+'. 09:37:12 more simply, I don't like the complexity introduced by overloadable syntax 09:37:44 If his language has define, then it's not a problem. 09:37:45 hmmm 09:37:51 mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 09:38:32 doesn't RSR5 implement function overloading? 09:38:32 Well, if his language has `define', and he uses it to mutate `+', then one language will step over another language's toes, resulting in exactly that single-namespace mess. 09:38:53 Shouldn't matter, since none of the languages interact. 09:39:02 In R5RS you can change a binding globally, you have no control on where the change applies. 09:39:19 No language has foo+ and bar+ which are both bound to +, or something (maybe they do, but not many of them). 09:39:30 Well, if the languages never interact then there's no problem -- but then there's no shared core anymore. 09:39:39 so no function dispatch based on parameter types? 09:39:44 multimethods, etc? 09:40:14 You can do that with an object system, or you can write the code yourself (which can be easy, given macros). 09:40:20 depends if he meant shared as linguistically, or shared as literally a single repl running all the DSLs at the same time 09:40:28 is `+' not a special form in scheme? 09:40:40 Both can be the case. The latter just needs you to manage environments for each one. 09:40:43 *Mr-Cat* dreams of polymorphic car/cdr 09:40:52 No, it is bound to a function. 09:40:58 ah shit 09:41:02 ... 09:41:09 I wish my car was polymorphic. That was a good show. 09:41:33 My other car is polymorphic 09:41:35 *SharkBrain* thinks that joke was somewhat in disguise 09:41:50 hmm 09:42:35 acknowledging that, what's wrong with the assertion that a module system can be written when needed? 09:43:08 Well, a module system is a pretty big change, 09:43:22 would I have to tack such a thing on to TinyScheme? 09:43:31 you'll probably need it when there's a good amount of code written in your language(s), 09:43:52 Havn't used TS a lot, but I know there's at least some sort of OO package for it. 09:44:10 and the more code is written, the more difficult it is to make changes -- so a huge change like adding a module system is likely to be very painful. 09:44:28 I'd prefer not to use OO in the DSL as that violates the requirement for the DSLs to be declarative 09:45:03 OO can be declarative, if done right 09:45:04 (Using tinyscheme is really bad, BTW. Scheme has a good chunk of bad rep because of its use in things like gimp and festival.) 09:45:08 the code written in the DSL will not be for reuse, but rather for project-specific behavior specialization 09:45:39 eli: Care to elaborate on why it's bad? I thought it was SIOD that gave Scheme such a bad rep 09:46:02 also, I don't really want to expose very many abstraction facilities to the DSLs either 09:46:10 sjamaan: They're both toy-ish enough to leave people with a very bad aftertaste. 09:46:32 I see 09:46:35 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit ["Rebooting..."] 09:46:45 bryanedds: It's you -- the implementor of these DSLs -- who needs good abstraction facilities. 09:47:00 Is tinyscheme an incomplete Scheme? 09:47:24 Last time I checked it was roughly on the same scale as SIOD. 09:47:25 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:47:26 C++ has plenty :) 09:47:47 sjamaan: I think that the sad state of small schemes is what motivated foof to do his project. 09:47:54 bryanedds: He said _good_ abstraction facilities :) 09:48:00 hmmm 09:48:05 bryanedds: Well, I can very strongly disagree with that! 09:48:08 Makes sense 09:48:10 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:48:11 how about a 'large number of bad ones'? 09:48:22 :D 09:48:27 That sounds more like C++... Or Java. 09:48:34 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:48:41 Or R6. *cough* 09:49:04 *eli* sighs at Prael 09:49:19 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:49:30 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:50:15 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:50:17 bryanedds: I've written a rough tutorial for writing DSLs in PLT Scheme -- that's likely too big for what you seem to be looking for, but still reading through it will make it clear why you really need a good module system for this purpose. 09:50:26 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:50:52 i'd like to look at that plz 09:51:11 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:52:04 bryanedds: I've dropped it at http://tmp.barzilay.org/tutorial.txt 09:52:19 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:53:04 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:53:15 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:53:52 so how is a module system implemented? 09:54:00 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:54:36 does it discriminate a dispatch on argument types? 09:54:41 That's a very different issue... 09:54:59 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:55:00 Specifically in Scheme, it's much harder to get a module system right, because you have macros. 09:55:32 ah, and the argument type is known only at run-time, right? 09:55:44 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:55:44 even tho the macro expands at compile-time? 09:55:57 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:56:37 Yes, macros expand at compile time -- which means that you can do a syntactic kind of a dispatch (for example, which language am I using now), or a runtime dispatch (the usual which argument did you actually get). 09:56:42 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:57:01 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:57:34 so to preserve sanitation, you have to bolt on some extra context to the expanded expression? 09:57:45 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:58:21 sort of like a compile time closure? 09:58:29 over the current frame? 09:58:31 Well, that bolting that you refer to is (very roughly) the lexical scope. 09:58:58 Scheme uses (or at least encourages) hygienic macros that make such extra information necessary. 09:58:58 nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 09:59:17 A module system that respects that will mean that each module is its own lexical context. 09:59:40 This way you can get to have different `+' bindings -- each one is "enriched" with the lexical context of the module it is coming from. 09:59:57 how would they intermix then? 10:00:06 Using this, you can have multiple implementations of different `+'s, and each one would be independent of the others. 10:00:27 If you want to mix them, then you need to get them all into a single module, so you need to import them with different names somehow. 10:00:28 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:01:13 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:01:23 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:01:31 so if you have to explicitly qualify them to intermix them, you seem to be back where you started 10:01:44 that is, just give them different names in the first place 10:01:48 no? 10:02:08 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:02:24 bryanedds: You may read r6rs specs - it's an example of a module system 10:02:27 Not at all -- that's only if you need to mix them in the same module; but since the usual usage case of these `+'s is for different languages, then you won't need to do this. 10:03:09 then, if it's the usual case that DSLs won't be intermixed, then there might be no need for a module system, right? 10:03:14 bryanedds: BTW, in case it wasn't clear, the different languages that I'm referring to are made by importing different bindings. 10:03:33 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:04:05 They are mixed at least with the language that you're using to implement them. 10:04:34 See in that tutorial -- look for "rename-out". 10:04:54 I think it's possible to limit each DSL to one binding context 10:05:10 and to then disallow DSLs to be used together 10:05:13 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 10:05:38 You define a function in your language (which is plain scheme), and provide it out under a different name (which is used by the DSL user) -- even if that different name is one that is used differently in Scheme. 10:06:28 For example, in that tutorial, I define a `let-rand' syntax for a non-deterministic kind of a binder. I then provide it out using `let' as it's name, so the resulting language looks like Scheme, but it has very different semantics. 10:06:34 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:06:36 masm [n=masm@bl5-106-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:06:51 the function wouldn't be defined in scheme, in my case 10:07:36 rather it would be defined in C++, then binded to the DSL's interpreter 10:07:36 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:07:41 like a special form 10:07:57 (at least, that's what I was thinking) 10:08:18 (let me know if that sounds naive) 10:08:49 A special form *is* something that you implement in Scheme. But what you describe is just foreign functions -- and that doesn't make any difference whether a function is implemented in Scheme or pulled out of some C library. 10:08:52 the meaning of let in my DSLs would always be the same 10:09:20 eli: Sorry for offtopic, what kind of markup language is used in your DSL tutorial and do you use any special software (a emacs mode or something) to edit it? 10:09:27 yes, a foreign function then. 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:10:04 it's very likely I don't know what I'm talking about in general 10:10:12 sjamaan, depends on what you mean by "scheme". It's certainly not close to R5RS 10:10:27 Mr-Cat: yes -- it uses a bunch of elisp hacks -- see "tutorial.el" in the same directory if you want that code. (But it's not really nice, just some quick throwaway thing that I needed for the presentation.) 10:10:47 I'm kinda similar to a user who doesn't really know what they want 10:11:10 bryanedds: If you get a function from foreign code or if you implement it, the result is the same -- you have a binding with a specific name. The issues are still the same... 10:11:17 Jafet: Thanks, eli already answered that question a while ago :) 10:11:53 Thing is, eli, the interpreter for the DSL is going to build a semantic tree in memory that implements behaviors as defined in C++ 10:12:03 Well, it's not merely another SIOD, I don't think. 10:12:15 Less bad? :) 10:12:20 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #scheme 10:12:24 Exactly what the semantic tree does when it executes depends on the DSL 10:12:55 So the interpreter itself is polymorphic 10:13:08 bryanedds: Yes, that sounds just like what I'm talking about. 10:13:18 eli: Thanks. I've been looking for a tool to edit text intermixed with code but could not find anything simple enough and useful enough. 10:13:43 In that case, I'm not sure if I even need the concept of a binding frame. 10:13:54 Since everything is defined in the interpret 10:14:01 It is basically context-free 10:14:14 bryanedds: What about module system and DSL - module system can be used to specify which DSL you're `in' now. 10:14:15 Mr-Cat: If you're looking for a mixed-mode editing, then I think that there was something more fitting for that -- something like "mmm"? (It was some "multi-mode-something".) 10:14:32 _nofear [n=maxwell@189.115.1.187] has joined #scheme 10:14:41 There's no variables or funtions, really. 10:15:03 The only thing I need in the DSL is expressions. 10:15:13 sjamaan, it doesn't implement something hideously different from scheme and call it scheme, at least 10:15:16 If there's a language, there are bindings... That comes with the territory. 10:15:40 Bindings, fwiu, are implemented on a global stack 10:15:45 usually a map 10:16:00 this is built over time as code is executed 10:16:27 bryanedds: No no, I'm talking about the concept of a binding. If you have actual names on a stack, then you're likely in a dynamically scoped interpreter. 10:16:44 (And that's a whole differnt nightmare...) 10:16:54 Don't concern yourself with the implementation. 10:16:59 Wait, I'm ignored. 10:17:21 Jafet: :) 10:17:26 I suppose that any syntax would have bindings in the abstract 10:17:55 But the bindings needn't be mutable 10:18:41 I think that a module presupposes a concatenatable binding structure 10:19:01 or the need to intermix syntax trees 10:19:10 Exactly -- since you're dealing with an abstract tree of syntax, then you have bindings, and you need some way to resolve bindings. R5RS just throws its hands in the air and gives you a single global namespace -- *or* the ability to "redefine" things by mutating them (the difference between mutation and redefinition is subtle, and not obvious for most people like the armies of Java drones). 10:19:19 if neither is true, I can't see the need for a module system 10:19:39 Anyway, I have an important meeting with a pillow. 10:19:49 Mmmm, pillow 10:20:11 if there;s no ambiguity, there's no need for resolution :) 10:20:49 anyhow, I've talked enough to realize I yet again don't know what I'm talking about 10:20:51 damn 10:21:02 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:21:18 Maybe Martin Fowler's new book will help me implement a DSL when it comes out 10:21:45 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 10:22:31 maybe I should just ignore all this scheme stuff and derive my DSLs from scratch 10:22:53 that at least will teach me what I need to learn 10:23:12 Skimping on modules usually comes back to bite you in the end, when you discover success. Haskell's namespacing has so many little problems, which is a shame because the rest of the language is quite nice 10:23:33 thanks for the coaching all 10:23:35 Same for C++. Yes, let's modularize with a textual substitution system dumber than sed 10:24:36 *bryanedds* unignores Jafet 10:24:52 *Jafet* stops talking 10:26:56 Jafet: Um, what's wrong with haskell modules? 10:27:39 No reflection. They didn't add that to template Haskell either, as far as I'm aware. 10:28:27 Also, no namespace control within modules, so your record constructors are dumped all over the place 10:28:37 C++ got that part somewhat working, I guess. 10:29:05 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.154.215.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:05 -!- bryanedds [n=bryanedd@adsl-074-171-139-176.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:41 bryanedds [n=bryanedd@adsl-074-171-139-176.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 10:29:58 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #scheme 10:30:31 Ironically, titchy languages like lua and python let you do reflection, because Everything Is An Object and Everything Is A Dictionary 10:30:46 Jafet: Well, I've never run into need for reflection in haskell 10:31:02 As I said, they aren't horrible problems, but they are there 10:31:20 Same for separate namespaces for constructors and accessors 10:36:25 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:37:59 -!- devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-164.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [] 10:40:17 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:48:09 -!- SharkBrain [n=gerard@125-239-134-95.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["leaving"] 10:49:25 Does anybody know of any existing Scheme code to fetch and parse METAR weather reports, or do I need to port e.g. pymetar? 10:49:44 *alaricsp* has a desire to obtain weather reports and wishes to Do It Properly (eg, in Scheme) 10:50:18 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:50:30 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:55:52 alaricsp: does not look too difficult: (article in german but the field description is better than the english version) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR 10:56:16 There's some laborious typing-in of tables of codes, from the pymetar sources 10:56:32 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 10:56:38 alaricsp: but I guess you could have a look at gnome-weather and reuse the c lib from there? 10:56:40 But bearable 10:56:59 or some similar program 11:05:14 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 11:17:31 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:18:37 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:18:58 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:20:07 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:20:27 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:26:53 -!- nego [n=nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:34 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:55 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 11:35:47 tjaway [n=timj@e176222121.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 11:39:05 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:39:36 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 11:40:52 -!- bryanedds [n=bryanedd@adsl-074-171-139-176.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 11:43:58 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection refused] 11:44:46 alvatar [n=alvatar@242.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 11:51:24 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176198013.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:30 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 11:56:46 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 11:57:33 kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #scheme 11:58:37 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:00:32 What's the right way to write: `PLT Scheme' or 'Plt Scheme'? 12:02:39 xwl 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[n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 13:20:52 timj [n=timj@e176207066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 13:22:00 Mr-Cat: the first. 13:24:41 Daemmerung: Ok, thanks 13:28:39 *Daemmerung* recommends the classic Oleg paper "Implementing Metcast in Scheme" to alaricsp 13:29:26 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:29:53 Daemmerung: thanks this is nice 13:31:30 -!- tjaway [n=timj@e176222121.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:50 Heh, thanks, Daemmerung 13:37:15 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176206135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:38:31 HG` [n=HG@xdslhe013.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 13:44:56 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslhe013.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:36 masm1 [n=masm@bl9-114-41.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 13:47:13 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-106-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:51:47 -!- sepult 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[n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:31 I love the multiple pages of hexadecimal gibberish that `git pull' spews. It's soooo computery. 16:05:56 *Daemmerung* has yet to drink the Kool-Aid 16:08:14 You can smoke the hashes. 16:08:32 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 16:14:01 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:59 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:22:22 *Daemmerung* resigns himself to R-ing TFM 16:23:49 Daemmerung: #git is a friendly and helpful channel 16:27:19 I'm not feeling very friendly and helpful right now. You know how many man pages I've read for svn? ZERO. And it always just. fucking. works. The perfect opposite of my git experience to date. 16:29:32 Now now, didn't you say the same thing about emacs 16:30:42 I learned emacs when I was young and highly malleable. 16:30:55 Daemmerung: doesn't make sense to read the svn man page anyway since it provides zero information... 16:31:05 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:31:37 schmir: Then it's a good thing that I've never needed to read it! 16:32:58 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:04 No question: the svn docs (i.e., the book) are excellent; it's UI is pretty good. Git's UI is appalling, and the docs are barely OK 16:33:10 s/it's/its/ 16:34:07 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@242.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["leaving"] 16:34:24 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:45 git docs are fine 16:36:59 No wonder so many developers are using git then. It makes them feel better about their own! 16:37:16 :) 16:37:32 git docs are long. 16:37:43 At least they're organized -- try to do anything with zsh 16:38:00 I would rather not, thanks. 16:38:06 -!- uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:45 lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:39:29 The docs are certainly abundant. Also, it looks like writing git manuals is right up there with implementing Scheme as a geek rite of passage. I've never seen so many third-party guides available. 16:39:33 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:02 Kind of telling that so many people feel the need to re-explain it. 16:41:12 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:41:53 Bet they love it for hurd development, though. 16:45:32 *Mr-Cat* thinks it's impossible to use svn without reading The Book (or someone's contunuous help) 16:46:41 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:55 *Mr-Cat* thinks that inclination for re-explanation is a symptom of hype around git 16:53:49 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 16:54:10 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:38 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:59 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Bahirkin@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 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#scheme 19:30:12 Belaf [n=campedel@194.209.131.192] has joined #scheme 19:33:03 arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-31-14-170.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:36:56 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:37:26 elly: parser combinators? :D 19:37:34 Sounds kind of exotic and highly neat. 19:37:44 :) I'm just working on my schemeterpiler. 19:39:08 elderK: google for them, very interesting :) 19:39:34 :) Mornin' ecraven 19:39:41 good evening :) 19:40:32 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:40:37 yes, they are interesting 19:40:43 I am trying to make them as pretty in scheme as they are in haskell 19:43:16 would you elaborate? 19:48:43 http://l.leptoquark.net/~elly/parser.scm is what I'm doing 19:48:59 so basically... parser combinators are functions that take parsers and mash them together 19:49:03 -!- kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:49:12 for example, I have a parser there called parse-lit which just eats a single specified literal 19:49:25 and I have a combinator called seq, which requires that all the parsers you give it match in order 19:49:52 so: (seq (parse-lit 'left-paren) parse-num (parse-lit 'right-paren)) matches '(' ')' 19:50:07 there's also the alt combinator, which matches if any of the parsers you give it match: 19:50:25 (alt (parse-lit 'left-paren) (parse-lit 'right-paren)) will match "(" or ")", returning the one that matched 19:50:32 basically, it's how you write BNF grammars nicely :P 19:51:29 (seq-bind is a more complicated one: it does the same thing as seq, but you can optionally make it bind intermediate results to variable names so you can extract them) 19:51:57 (so e.g. (seq-bind 'x (parse-lit 'left-paren) (cons parse-num 'x) (parse-lit 'right-paren)) applied to "(3)" will return 3) 19:53:28 Hum... not quite as pretty as in Haskell. 19:53:33 yes, I know 19:53:44 my secret plan is a function parser-expand which can transform this: 19:54:01 '(x #\( num:x #\)) 19:54:03 into that :P 19:58:23 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:31 Hum... 19:59:49 Should I point out that Riastradh has a nice parser combinator library? 19:59:51 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:00:50 if you'd like to, but I am writing this largely for the experience of implementing parser combinators 20:01:22 http://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/parscheme/ 20:01:33 elly: It might give you some ideas to play with. 20:01:59 indeed! thanks :) 20:02:23 I actually used them to implement MIME and RFC2822 parsers. 20:02:35 Works quite well. 20:03:00 Now that it think of that, I also implemented one, eons ago. 20:03:19 OK, maybe it was last year. 20:05:27 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:08:40 -!- linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Read 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has joined #scheme 22:01:41 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:44 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:06:17 *jcowan* unvanishes. 22:09:26 elderK: what is the difference between parameters and free variables, when it comes to environments ? 22:09:41 nothing, really. 22:09:45 :) I just came across that :D 22:09:52 You dont need to do any kkidn of runtime lookups. 22:09:56 not if hte compileris smart enough :PO 22:10:13 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 22:10:36 If free variables are mutable, something has to make sure that the mutations are visible in all closures simultaneously. 22:10:53 That isn't a problem for parameters. 22:11:50 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 22:11:57 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 22:12:11 jcowan: I imagined having something like... stubs in environments. 22:12:12 like, 22:12:35 when some variable was used, in some environment, in which that variable wasnt bound locally (to the function or whatever, ie, free) 22:12:51 the compielr would be smart enough to put a 'stub' in the environment, in which the variable was used. 22:13:05 that stub would provide a direct link to the "real" binding. 22:13:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 61 (Connection refused)] 22:13:42 and, because it's in the environment, from which it was being referenced, we can giveti a constant offset, in that environment. 22:13:49 sorry if i'm explaining badly. 22:13:53 It's still forming in my mind. 22:13:59 but the idea is, completely do away when the runtime lookups. 22:14:43 That's the first step. However, we can improve this in two ways: 22:14:44 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 22:15:23 1) If the compiler notes that the variable is never mutated with set!, then the 'stub', as you call it, need not point to the real entry; it can be a *copy* of it instead. 22:16:12 This is the design called "flat closures", and is used by many Scheme systems. 22:16:19 Aye :D 22:16:28 As a further possible improvement (debate continues on whether it really helps or not), 22:16:45 you can convert all mutable variables into immutable variables that refer to mutable boxes. 22:17:26 In that case, all references to these variables must have an extra indirection through the box, but closures are not a special case. 22:17:38 This is called 'assignment conversion'. 22:18:59 I dont really see how that would help that much, since, that indirection will be there anyway. 22:19:33 It's in a different place. 22:20:34 well, aye. We dont have to go "up", as it were. We just have an immediate 'stub'/copy of hte immutable box-reference thingy, right? 22:20:55 -!- uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:03 that could make performing this kind of optimization easier, wouldn't it? 22:25:47 :) jcowan: Thank you for that man. 22:25:48 :D 22:37:07 uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #scheme 22:37:45 Sure. 22:39:07 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:39:15 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:43:57 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 22:48:39 schmir` [n=schmir@p54A9327E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:51:38 devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-164.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #scheme 22:51:46 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-191-29.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:30 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A9006E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:55 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.235.181] has joined #scheme 22:55:40 -!- schmir` [n=schmir@p54A9327E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:00 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:35 schmir [n=schmir@p54A9327E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:03:09 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-161.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:03:26 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05:44 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:09:22 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-161.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:13:42 lisptastic [n=user@cpe-76-177-227-49.natcky.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:14:00 Does mzscheme come with preconditions? 23:14:06 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-203-30-77.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:20:13 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:30 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 23:22:51 lisptastic, you can use contracts 23:30:19 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@140-182-147-203.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 23:30:25 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-161.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:31:12 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-161.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:34:21 awarrington_ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has joined #scheme 23:38:29 awarrington___ [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:40:19 awarrington____ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has joined #scheme 23:41:27 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:55 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:45:02 -!- saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-98-212-125-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:29 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:48:49 -!- linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:40 -!- awarrington__ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:50 -!- awarrington_ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:06 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:59:29 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme