00:05:14 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 00:19:59 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-249.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 00:20:54 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:22:52 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:28 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 00:29:11 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-39-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:40 masm [n=masm@bl10-6-120.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 00:32:56 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-65.vinet.ba] has quit [Success] 00:37:15 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-092-215.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:36 n0am [n=noam@188.88.96.36] has joined #scheme 00:37:42 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-015.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:39:50 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 00:41:44 daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #scheme 00:42:36 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:43:16 hey, I'm trying to apply a function to the first element in one list, to each element in the second, then the second element in the first list to each element in the second (and so forth) 00:43:57 is it possible to do this with map? 00:45:11 I think its simple to do with iteration (a nested loop with the function inside the deepest nest), but I'm trying to get my head round map 00:48:27 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:00:55 -!- _nofear [n=_nofear@189.115.0.219] has quit [] 01:11:28 Zuu [i=zuu@unaffiliated/zuu] has joined #scheme 01:12:10 this is a quickie, what is the usual name for these: 'foo 01:12:25 symbols? datums? constants? 01:14:47 or just names? 01:17:08 Hmm, i had imagined this to be an easy one :) 01:19:16 i have attempted to find descriptions of the scheme tokens, but ' is just mentioned several places making it hard to determine what i should call " 'foo " 01:19:37 maybe quotations? 01:20:28 When (if) anyone decides to answer, please highlight me :) 01:25:16 Zuu: That's a quotation of a symbol, I'd say, but I may be wrong. 01:25:33 'foo is read by the reader as (quote foo) - eg, it turns into a list 01:26:01 yeah i sortof figured out what it did, it's just that i dont know what to call it 01:26:42 as in, if i had to describe this through words: (bar 'foo baz) 01:27:33 bar is called with followed by 01:30:33 im a bit rusty, but these symbols represent values right? Sow what is the idea of quoting it? 01:31:19 i can see the idea of quoting a list of ssymbols as to not evaluate it as a function, but quoting a single symbol, i dont get. 01:32:00 cky_ [n=cky@h-98-105-27-134.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:30 Anyways, thanks for the answer alaricsp :) 01:33:27 wait, you might actually have answered both questions already, it's just me being slow :P 01:35:21 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-29-215.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:37:27 Zuu: Well, in a Scheme expression, 'foo evaluates to a symbol object that has the string representation "foo", while foo on its own evaluates to whatever foo is bound to, or an error if it's not bound 01:37:32 (sorry, I was off fiddling with fire) 01:38:02 :) 01:38:34 i think i just came across something mentioning that 'foo is just called "foo symbol" 01:39:33 alaricsp, i think i understand the idea now, thanks again :) 01:42:22 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:08 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 01:47:54 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-xrkbebrgbingffek] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:44 arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-149-137.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:58:57 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 01:59:16 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 01:59:24 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 02:00:13 -!- jay-mccarthy [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:00:18 *arcfide* hunts for Riastradh. 02:00:46 jay-mccarthy [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 02:04:44 -!- daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #scheme 02:06:02 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 02:06:11 arcfide: where you gonna look? 02:06:20 *mejja* recommends http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/regulations/abstracts/hunting_dates.pdf 02:10:23 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:16:32 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.232.232] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:34:51 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-6-120.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:36:59 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:38:19 hello. is there a default way in scheme to get some unique identifier for an existing object? something like a pointer or so? i dont need to access any object by that identifier, i just have to make sure that two identical lists can be somehow differed if I need it. 02:40:30 schoppenhauer: nothing in r5rs that i can think of; there may be some implementation-dependent mechanism 02:40:45 klutometis: is there something for petite and mzscheme? 02:40:55 schoppenhauer: You can also use eq? to _compare_ whether two items have the same identity. 02:41:18 specbot: eq? 02:41:34 cky: this would be sufficient. but does eq? really only compare pointers? because I need to have (eq? (list) (list)) to be #f 02:41:40 cky: for example 02:41:40 specbot: r5rs eq? 02:41:40 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_216 02:41:42 It is. 02:41:42 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/6hr3jb 02:41:46 schoppenhauer: Try it and see. 02:42:59 schoppenhauer: look at the rationale for eq? vs. eqv? in the link above; it's possible that eq? is implemented as pointer comparison, which may or may not help you determine object identity 02:45:15 hm ... 02:45:50 thank you. 02:53:08 is there any form of mutable objects in scheme, that you can pass to a function, and this function can change? 02:53:29 (I know this is not very functional, but its the easiest way to do what I want right now) 02:55:50 These are sometimes needed, and you can construct one using pairs, but most people uses their implementation's version of boxes. 02:57:12 ok 02:57:32 arcfide: can this be done by set-car! and set-cdr! ? 02:57:34 Mutating objects reminds me of SRFI-17. 02:57:44 schoppenhauer: Yep, that'd be the usual way. 02:57:50 cky: ok thanks 02:58:05 schoppenhauer: What implementation are you using? 02:58:25 arcfide: i have to write code that is usable on petite chez scheme and mzscheme, both r5rs 02:58:30 schoppenhauer: If you have SRFI-17, you can also use (set! (car foo) bar) and (set! (cdr foo) bar), but set-car! and set-cdr! is more portable (works on plain-jane R5RS). 02:59:06 cky: well, then I prefer set-car! and set-cdr! 02:59:10 *nods* 02:59:20 schoppenhauer: Petite Chez Scheme has Boxes, and so does mzscheme. If you are restricted to using only R5RS, then you can just use pairs. 02:59:23 i prefer to write portable code 02:59:37 arcfide: yes, but i prefer portable code. 02:59:51 arcfide: but thank you 03:00:04 schoppenhauer: It's hard to find a Scheme implementation that doesn't have boxes, and harder still to find a Scheme that doesn't allow you to write a trivial portable boxes library. 03:00:05 I mean its not that it has to be very efficient code ... it just has to work. 03:00:38 Even if you decide to do so portably, you should make it clear what you are doing by creating a box abstraction yourself. 03:02:10 arcfide: from common lisp comes the possibility to differ between implementations by #+...(...), for example #+sbcl( sbcl-special-code ), etc. - is there something similar in scheme? (because if so, then I maybe would use it for this) 03:02:28 arcfide: i agree its better to write an abstraction layer which makes clear what I am actually doing 03:02:56 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@dhcp-212-196.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 03:03:39 schoppenhauer: No, and generally you would avoid such things in your code. Just write the code using boxes, and then provide a simple boxes library in case the implementation doesn't provide it. 03:04:06 ok 03:04:27 arcfide: are the mzscheme- and petite-scheme boxes identical? 03:05:44 schoppenhauer: You'd need to check the docs for each. I know that boxes don't differ that much among implementations. 03:05:54 ok thank you 03:07:46 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:08:06 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 03:08:40 bytecolor, `is the average do statement inherently slower than the average tail recursion?' In any reasonable implementation of Scheme, DO is a macro that expands into a tail recursion. 03:09:38 bytecolor, the primitive mechanism for looping in Scheme is procedure call. There is nothing `faster', although a compiler will usually generate better code for certain patterns of procedure calls. 03:12:47 arcfide: Boo. 03:14:46 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:22:36 *arcfide* blinks. 03:22:45 *arcfide* has become the hunted. 03:23:17 Riastradh: You booed? :-) 03:29:25 Hi. 03:33:29 You hunted? 03:34:32 copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:35:23 *kapwing* 03:35:47 hitting them on the fly, I see 03:35:59 omg it's Riastradh 03:36:01 We're playing IRC tag, copumpkin. Join the fun! (You're not allowed to reply for at least five minutes, enough time for one of us to get distracted.) 03:36:18 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-249.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:36:50 :o 03:42:46 hmm, now I just realized I don't know how to play tag 03:43:15 *copumpkin* makes appropriate noises and grabs Adamant 03:43:21 I think the : symbol and use of the Tab key may somehow be involved 03:43:23 I assume that's what is needed 03:44:52 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:25 Riastradh: Well, I sent you an email about what I wanted to say, so I no longer require you on IRC, unless you have some more information about OmniWeb's Gopher support. It appears that it is broken. 03:47:39 *Adamant* attaches a tag to the copumpkin value, uses the obligatory :, then jets for daily consciousness interruption 03:48:05 I get some things, and it appears to be sending the right stuff to the server, but for some reason it must not like the output. 03:48:09 Darn, arcfide stole my turn. 03:48:58 I was going to say to copumpkin: `It's like phone tag, but over IRC. Some hours ago, arcfide prodded (the absent) me, and so half an hour ago I prodded him back, and then he prodded me back, so I prodded him once more in return, and I still haven't a clue what all this prodding is about.' 03:49:11 But now I have to wait another five minutes to say that. 03:49:12 Phooey. 03:49:14 I see! 03:49:17 Ahem. 03:49:48 Now I see what it's about, though. 03:50:03 arcfide, maybe it would be easier if you found a host that talks the FTP or the HTTP. 03:50:57 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:52:30 tjaway [n=timj@e176197179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:52:39 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 03:52:45 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-114-105.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:54 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-27-134.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:52:58 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 03:56:57 My IRC tag technique seems a little flakey. Apparently I was more surprising too copumpkin than arcfide, even though I said `boo' to arcfide but not to copumpkin. 03:57:26 well I just hadn't seen you in here for a while 04:00:40 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:39 Summermute [n=Summermu@c-69-251-24-39.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:03:16 djanatyn [n=djanatyn@c-76-27-121-193.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:07:58 *copumpkin* tags Summermute 04:08:26 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176207188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:34 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:38:26 arcfide, I haven't gotten your email, and I think that it should have gotten past greylisting by now. 04:55:04 Riastradh: It boils down to, "I think OmniWeb has a screw loose." 04:55:44 OmniWeb appears to send the appropriate request, and I know that sending that same request over every other gopher client results in the appropriate response and receiving the appropriate data back in a valid form, so I'm not sure why OmniWeb is having such a hard time with it. 04:55:46 OK. Considered submitting a bug report? You would be much more qualified than I, as you have already written a Gopher server and analyzed the bits going over the intertubes. 04:56:28 I was hoping you had some tricks about debugging OmniWeb. 04:57:42 No, sorry. I have never attempted to debug OmniWeb, for two reasons: (1) It is proprietary software. (2) It exhibits bugs very seldom for me, perhaps once every few months. 04:58:27 Alright. It seems to work just fine except for the "9" protocol, which is used for binary transfers. 04:58:35 I'll go ahead and submit the report. 05:00:05 Riastradh: Um, I'm not sure where to report bugs. Is there some interface on their web page, or an email address? 05:00:26 Ah..., um, I guess that forum thing is the official bug reporting tool, huh? 05:01:15 Oh blast, they require registration. 05:02:05 I Googled `reporting omniweb bugs', and (Google's summary text for) the first hit suggested sending mail omniweb5@omnigroup.com. 05:07:01 Thanks. 05:07:08 'how cool would it be if every time you used it, you thought "Wow, this rules!"' 05:08:06 offby1: From where is this exactly? 05:08:22 Probably from the Omni Group's web page for OmniWeb. 05:08:50 They're a little excited about their own products. 05:08:50 Hehe, I checked out the features they were advertising, but I'm not sure I was any more impressed than with Opera. What features do you like about OmniWeb Riastradh? 05:09:06 Riastradh: Yes, they do seem to be rather . . . enthused. 05:09:31 Not that I can use it seeing that they are on Mac OS X exclusively, but...*shrug*. 05:09:55 Riastradh: Oh, and are you still against UTF-8 non-ASCII characters or the like in this channel when you are reading? :-) 05:13:10 OmniWeb renders web pages, with ads blocked, and with cookies blocked except for domains on a white list. That's pretty much all I request it to do. When I need to use a web site that uses JavaScript, I launch Firefox. 05:14:30 Oh, OmniWeb also has a source viewer that doubles as a source editor. That way, I can strip out obnoxious parts of a web page as I encounter them (bad CSS, unwanted images, &c.) and redisplay the page on the fly. 05:15:12 I'm sure that I could persuade Firefox to do all that too, but that would require me to track down and install and customize some elaborate collection of plugins, which would take more than zero time and mental effort. 05:16:49 If you want to communicate clearly in this channel, I suggest restricting your text to US-ASCII code points, because the IRC protocol is broken, and many IRC clients behave in various unpleasant ways in the face of non-US-ASCII code points. 05:18:49 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:19:19 Hrm, are the Scheme implementations actually taking SRFI 103 seriously? 05:19:35 I can't imagine so. 05:19:48 If they are, then I shall take them even less seriously than I currently do. 05:20:14 I haven't read it, but I've seen some people arguing that it should be used. I'm not really sure what it suggests. 05:21:58 Whoever suggests that it be used should be punished by being forced to use it. That punishment should not be inflicted upon any innocent bystanders, however. 05:31:04 elderK [n=zk@125-236-160-103.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:37:30 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-116-136.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 05:39:45 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-166-114-105.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:39:46 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 05:40:14 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-57-237.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:45:51 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 05:49:55 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-165-129-23.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 05:50:18 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-166-116-136.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:50:18 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 06:05:36 graphviz is leet! 06:05:52 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 06:10:29 -!- djanatyn [n=djanatyn@c-76-27-121-193.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:10:38 I was quite happy when I saw that someone had made OpenGL bindings for Chez. 06:10:39 :-) 06:10:48 And I'm working on Descot again! 06:11:09 Ah, it's good to be working on it. Riastradh, that means you'll probably see some things that show you how easy it is to use Descot the way you want. :-) 06:11:31 Also, you'll be glad to see the new web site changes that are font size and page width dynamic. 06:11:46 Though, I suppose you'll still disable the stylesheet anyways. :-) 06:12:07 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-165-129-23.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 06:12:17 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-165-129-23.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:12:23 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 06:35:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:36:13 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 06:46:32 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 06:54:31 Summermute66 [n=Summermu@c-69-251-24-39.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:03:19 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:12:43 -!- Summermute [n=Summermu@c-69-251-24-39.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:06 :D yo arc! 07:16:07 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-233-3-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:16:19 uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #scheme 07:16:24 borism [n=boris@213-35-233-3-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 07:16:48 I asked this in ##lisp but haven't gotten a response. Is SICP a good text for learning Lisp/functional programming ? 07:18:45 Yup 07:18:55 You can't go wrong with SICP, uman. 07:19:12 How to design programs is good too, if you want some more. 07:19:20 :) HtDP and SICP can be found online for free! 07:19:20 SICP even has videos! 07:19:20 hmmm 07:20:43 There are many aspects to lisp; SICP tries to teach design and philosophy 07:21:07 You'll also want a copy of the scheme language report 07:21:51 HTDP is sort of a "junior" version of SICP, for programmers who aren't good at math yet 07:22:18 Well, yes, you can go wrong with SICP, but it is a great book. 07:22:40 For the language reference, I prefer TSPL. 07:23:14 If you liked SICP, you'll like Lisp in Small Pieces. 07:23:32 s/ed/e/ ; whoops 07:24:16 Thanks, guys 07:24:22 I think I'll start reading SICP, it seems interesting 07:24:27 aye, about the reference. 07:24:36 Dybvig's TSPL is cool - and available for free online, uman 07:25:31 slom [n=ibook@217.235.88.252] has joined #scheme 07:28:28 shit; no one ported foof-loop to chicken 4? 07:28:37 i wonder if s48-modules would work 07:28:42 klutometis: Those crazies. 07:29:32 Jafet: what standard of math ability is required for SICP? 07:29:34 Jafet: HtDP is definitely not a junior version of SICP. 07:29:58 uman: SICP really doesn't require that much math. Some of the exercises make more sense with some Math background. 07:30:19 arcfide: i've struggled with luddism since chicken 4 was released; i guess i may have to persist in my chicke-3-anachronism 07:31:20 uman: nothing special; you should be able to grok things like infinitie series, etc. from wikipedia if you don't know them already 07:33:26 oh, I'm a math major 07:33:29 I should be fine then 07:34:22 heh; bizarre you should ask, then. just dive in ;) 07:34:37 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 07:34:53 I was afraid a math major at the U. of Arizona might have less math aptitude than a CS major at MIT :) 07:35:05 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:35:07 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 07:35:58 Math courses are more consistent in quality than programming ones, probably 07:36:40 I've never taken a programming class, so I wouldn't know 07:36:46 cky_ [n=cky@h-98-105-58-222.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 07:36:46 actually I start my first one on Wednesday 07:36:50 *eli* hands Jafet the most awkwardly questionable conclusion of the week. 07:37:08 uman: my ex-fiancee's brother went to U of A; doesn't it have a party-school reputation, or something? 07:37:09 xwl [n=user@123.115.125.156] has joined #scheme 07:37:16 I can't think of any kind of course with more variable quality than "computer science", honestly 07:37:29 Or are you still on my impression of HtDP? 07:37:39 No. 07:37:42 Jafet: well, the subject largely deals with variables :) 07:37:57 How do you reach such a conclusion? 07:38:01 oops, forgot I was in #scheme, so that comment was probably insulting in addition to corny :) 07:38:28 I expect course quality to vary greatly between different teachers, then between departments, then between schools. 07:38:36 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-165-129-23.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:38:37 uman: whoops; that must have been ASU 07:38:51 The field would be somewhere around the bottom of the list. 07:38:57 klutometis: sorry the fiancee thing didn't work out :/ and ASU and U of A are both known as party schools, but ASU is definitely the more famous for it 07:39:07 klutometis: they were ranked #1 party school by Playboy I think. 07:39:19 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 07:39:26 ...and it's an odd thing to say, since I have no idea kind of information it conveys, and what uman should do with it. 07:39:38 Jafet: I agree with eli. I have had wildly varying quality of math instructors. Actually the best I have had was at a community college, and the worst was at U of A. 07:39:42 uman: How much math have you done? 07:39:51 Ok. 07:40:19 eli: Calc 1-3, differential equations, and some linear algebra 07:40:37 Calc 1-2 and LA I learned rigorously, Calc 3 and D.E. was more applied 07:41:02 I think Indiana University scored #5 or something like that on the Playboy party list or some such. 07:41:03 best teacher was Calc 3 at community college, worst was O.D.E. teacher at UA 07:41:06 Or was it #3? 07:41:30 ASU also has better looking women than U of A :( 07:41:38 eli: why do you ask? 07:41:39 uman: In this case, and pardon the blasphemy, you're likely to find Haskell more appealing and/or natural. 07:41:51 eli: hmmm, why? 07:42:14 eli: and for the sake of argument accepting that the Haskell recommendation is correct, is SICP still worth reading? 07:42:21 i believe this is the list you're talking about, gentlemen? http://www.fanblogs.com/ncaa/005842.php 07:42:26 A number of generalizations that can just as well be wrong. 07:42:45 uman: some people have even done SICP in haskell 07:42:53 uman: One thing is that mathematicians are more attached to traditional syntax. 07:43:28 uman: A more important fact is that `=' in Haskell has the same meaning it has in math -- and that's very different than most conventional langugaes. (At least Scheme is cleaner in that area.) 07:43:36 http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages 07:43:38 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yvqsht 07:44:02 uman: And yet more important than that is the fact that lazy evaluation is a more fitting model of "doing math" (whatever that means). 07:44:12 '=' meaning something different in programming than math doesn't really bother me 07:44:25 eli: in fact mathematicians themselves use '=' to mean wildly different things depending on context 07:44:34 uman: All of these conclusions immediately get null and void if you're interested in logic -- in that case you're much closer to CS anyway. 07:44:41 (But you didn't have that on your list.) 07:45:09 eli: for example a mathematician is liable to write "cos(x) = O(1)" which is nonsense if you interpret '=' in the standard way 07:45:26 Yes, mathematicians mean different things for symbols, but they almost always keep the meaning close to the visual appearance -- and assignment is very far from doing something similar. 07:45:40 i still contend that scheme has more mathematical sophistication out-of-the-box than most languages; witness the type-orthogonal exact/inexact dimension 07:45:50 eli: mathematics doesn't really have the concept of "assignment" 07:46:10 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:46:11 uman: Right -- that's why I have it high on the points of contention. 07:46:35 as well as the provisions for exact irrational numbers 07:46:50 eli: still, I would agree (I think, hate to put words in your mouth though) with you that C and friends fucked up by making '=' and '==' mean what they did. '<-' and '=' (or something) would've been more sensible 07:47:16 uman: indeed, R uses the <- and = syntax 07:47:21 It's just notation. 07:47:30 klutometis: Having such a rich numerical hierarchy (and an odd exact/inexact side-hierarchy) is something that sorely sticks out in an otherwise very minimal language. 07:47:55 There are people who don't like Lisp because it is notated with parens. 07:48:06 eli: it's a charming decadence, though; even if it is decadent 07:48:30 from what I can tell this channel sucks much less than ##c and ##c++ 07:48:39 uman: Yes -- and the really bad outcome of that is in misleading newbies: they're practically the only ones who will be confused by it, and the ones who will suffer most from such a confusion. 07:48:46 we had a two hour debate in ##c++ over whether O(2n) and O(n) mean the same thing :( 07:49:30 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-149-137.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #scheme 07:49:34 eli: newbies and bad typists -- I've had "Problem exists between finger and brain" incidents which caused me to think '==' and type '=' 07:49:35 uman: Actually, if you're into resource complexities, then there's a big negative point for Haskell's laziness -- 07:49:37 R also allows you to use ->, if you feel so inclined. :-P 07:49:37 e.g., y <- acos(x) could also be written acos(x) -> y 07:49:47 it makes resource analysis a nightmare. 07:50:10 cky: jesus; after years of R, i didn't know that 07:50:33 klutometis: It's okay. I didn't know it until one of the designers of R told me so. :-P 07:50:45 *cky* studied at the statistics department at the University of Auckland. 07:50:52 eli: I'm honestly too much of a beginner at programming to know for sure what I'm into 07:50:57 Complexity analysis in Haskell is quite interesting, because you have to approach it in a different way 07:51:10 cky: heh; i even hung out with some of those designers a few months ago at the R conference in copenhagen. none of them felt inclined to clue me in ;) 07:51:27 for some definition of "beginner" (e.g. the people I work with think I'm a wizard, but they're shitty VB hacks :) ) 07:52:22 oh god someone tried translating SICP into C++ 07:52:24 why 07:52:38 uman: Well, to give you a few more details, 07:52:59 SICP and HtDP are very different -- they're both trying to teach you how to program in general, 07:53:19 cky_ [n=cky@h-96-15-122-169.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 07:53:21 eli: but the point is, I've never done any CS more theoretical than "help us build this shitty C# app to make me money", so "what I'm into" is kinda hard to know 07:53:23 Jafet: something like this? http://www.springerlink.com/content/p2r17451hx57552p/ 07:53:37 but SICP is kind of like "we'll show you a collection of some really cool things", for a definition of "cool" that is taken from the 80s. 07:53:51 eli: amb is still cool, motherfucker ;) 07:53:55 and HtDP is more like "we'll teach you how to think methodically about solving problems". 07:54:06 eli: I see 07:54:19 and HtDP is like: we'll make programming safe for valley girls/guys ;) 07:54:24 SICP in general is more advanced and fast, HtDP is more slow and robuts. 07:54:32 wow, on that translation page, presenting examples from section 1.1 require eight #include statements. 07:54:33 klutometis, yes, except I can read it 07:54:39 four standard and four from boost 07:54:40 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-58-222.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:54:42 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 07:54:57 klutometis: re `amb' -- yes, it's somewhat cool, but not nearly as much as it was in the 80s -- similar things were done from nearly every possible angle. 07:55:25 klutometis: And re your HtDP analogy -- it is impressively bad. 07:56:27 I've heard the term "valley girl" several times but never "valley guy" 07:56:32 I don't know what either one means 07:56:39 -!- slom [n=ibook@217.235.88.252] has quit [] 07:56:49 uman: re the choice of languages, BTW, you should certainly stick with Scheme if you're into symbolic stuff -- even more if you're into the meta-stuff. (That was implicit in my reference to logic.) 07:57:48 I think I'll stick with reading SICP, based on what I've heard in this channel 07:57:59 and after that decide in which direction to continue my studies 07:59:45 you've all been quite helpful 08:04:08 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:38 is it easier to figure out resource complexity for languages like Scheme, or for "standard" procedural languages like C(++) ? 08:10:34 I guess the point might be moot since you can implement the same algorithms in either language, I imagine 08:10:48 It's probably similar for both. 08:11:29 Scheme might be easier in general since it's much more "formal" than C/C++. 08:11:49 C is plenty formal, go listen to Zhivago for a while 08:12:05 I guess I don't understand what you mean by that term 08:12:26 Perhaps "uniform" is a more suitable term. 08:12:32 (Zhivago is an annoying, mean-spirited language lawyering pedant who trolls ##c all day) 08:12:35 As in "uniform evaluation rules". 08:12:42 eli: ahh, okay 08:13:15 (Didn't know about him, and I usually try to stay out of the lawyering business.) 08:13:47 Plus, Scheme has some formal semantics, so you could potentially go as far as you want. 08:19:18 I read that the original LISP was the first programming language to implement some kind of if-statement 08:19:26 pretty cool if true 08:21:18 eli: that was somewhat hyperbolic, but not entirely alien to the truth; "several instructors reported that female students like the HtDP curriculum exceptionally well" was a major selling point in felleisen's paper 08:21:23 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.brown.edu%2F~sk%2FPublications%2FPapers%2FPublished%2Ffffk-htdp-vs-sicp-journal%2Fpaper.pdf&ei=kjdIS7dziPKxA5OisPUP&usg=AFQjCNHTyGR777IoAEivAAZYKB7nyKJGSw&sig2=xjH3uaRVvJmRfRVFzgiGCA 08:21:25 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yddzqs3 08:22:05 sorry: http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/fffk-htdp-vs-sicp-journal/paper.pdf 08:22:07 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/6z3cy7 08:25:59 uman: It was the first language that had a conditional *expression*. For quite some time, the only form of conditional was an assembly-like "if goto ". 08:26:01 klutometis: Unrelated. You said "valley girls/guys". 08:26:51 snearch [n=olaf@e179142053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 08:33:48 eli: that's because i assumed the authors wouldn't patronize intelligent girls/guys (who might balk at a priori preferential treatment) 08:48:37 cky_ [n=cky@h-96-15-122-169.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 08:50:10 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 08:59:29 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 09:00:18 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:02:57 HG` [n=HG@85.8.71.216] has joined #scheme 09:05:25 klutometis: fast-loop is ported to chicken 4, and is compatible except for the build-your-own-iterator API, IIRC 09:05:36 *compatible with foof-loop 09:06:54 -!- cky [n=cky@h-96-15-122-169.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:46 zbigniew: looks like the doc pages for fast-loop and loopy-loop are blank; does loopy-loop resemble foof-loop, too? 09:12:58 or is it more of a straight-up CL loop? 09:19:15 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:20:13 klutometis: not entirely sure, but from the looks of it, loopy-loop is an earlier version of fast-loop, with slightly different syntax 09:22:21 klutometis: btw there's some documentation of loopy-loop at http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/3/loopy-loop 09:22:55 wingo_ [n=wingo@116.Red-83-32-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:23:13 stick around and either foof or Riastradh should be able to answer, when they show up 09:29:59 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:31:28 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:34:25 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 09:41:44 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:43:40 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 09:45:53 certainty [n=closure@dslc-082-083-151-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:50:15 -!- wingo [n=wingo@116.Red-83-32-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:52:51 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:58:29 wingo [n=wingo@116.Red-83-32-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:03:03 -!- wingo_ [n=wingo@116.Red-83-32-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:21 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.71.216] has quit [Client Quit] 10:30:25 incubot: i only just realized that the "yo, dawg" meme was inspired by directed acyclic word graphs 10:30:28 (thus making it acyclic) 10:30:34 indeed 10:35:34 -!- Summermute66 [n=Summermu@c-69-251-24-39.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 10:51:28 -!- wingo [n=wingo@116.Red-83-32-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:59:41 alvatar [n=alvatar@57.22.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 11:05:58 sarimurat [n=salim@139.179.197.86] has joined #scheme 11:14:50 visof [n=visof@41.238.235.105] has joined #scheme 11:20:04 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:20:20 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 11:20:30 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:28:39 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #scheme 11:36:14 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.235.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:38:21 hm, how do you use emacs' run-scheme? 11:40:01 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 11:40:11 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 11:43:34 C-Keen: with C-u M-x run-scheme you can set the interpreter manually 11:43:47 i have a (setq scheme-program-name "csi"), for instance, in my ~/.emacs, though 11:44:30 visof [n=visof@41.238.235.105] has joined #scheme 11:45:27 klutometis: same here, I wondered whether there is a more comfortable way to enter stuff in the running interpreter than copy/pasting. The compile stuff won't work because there is no '(compile)' form in csi 11:46:16 C-Keen: i also define the following function, for instance: 11:46:18 (defun scheme-send-buffer () "Just send the goddamn thing." (interactive) (scheme-send-region (point-min) (point-max))) 11:46:32 (define-key scheme-mode-map "\C-c\C-b" 'scheme-send-buffer) 11:46:51 thus, i can just do a C-c C-b and it sends the current buffer to the running scheme 11:48:11 klutometis: ah thanks! is there also a function to select the s-expr before point? (like C-x C-e evals it in emacs lisp) 11:48:13 looks like scheme-send-region will also make kill/yank unnecessary 11:48:35 (require 'xscheme) maybe ? 11:50:19 ah scheme-send-last-sexp 11:50:29 nice; didn't know about that one 11:50:33 it is easy to find once you know where to look for it :) 11:50:35 thanks 11:50:49 C-x C-e is the default :) 11:52:23 Hello, is there a standard scheme way to get a function from a string containing its name? 11:52:54 I made the following: 11:52:59 (define-syntax string->function 11:52:59 (syntax-rules () ((_ s) (eval (call-with-input-string s read))))) 11:53:22 and it seems to work, but is there anything better/simpler? 11:54:18 Belaf: what about string->symbol? 11:55:53 No, I tried that, but it gives a symbol, not a function: 11:56:03 > ((string->symbol "+") 1 2 3) 11:56:03 ERROR: non procedure application: + 11:56:49 incubot: (apply (eval (string->symbol "+")) '(1 2 3)) 11:56:49 6 11:57:33 question is, though, why do you want to do this? 11:57:39 oh, I see, thanks. I need to eval the result of string->symbol 11:58:03 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:58:18 Oh well, I'm learning scheme, so it may well be that I'm trying to solve a non-existing problem :) 11:59:28 I'm trying to generate "getters" for structure fields in a macro, so I'm composing the getter name as a string, but then I need to call the function. 12:00:35 something similar to define-record? 12:00:48 Belaf: take a look at the implementation of srfi-9 12:00:49 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-9/srfi-9.html 12:00:58 especially under define-record-type 12:01:46 they define getters and setters without resorting to...oh, wait; they don't do composition 12:02:29 tinyclos does something like this IIRC 12:02:35 klutometis: allright, thanks, I'll give a look. But your suggestion about string->symbol works well for me. 12:02:41 the defstruct macro in chicken 4 (which is a wrapper around srfi-9) does composition, though 12:03:23 klutometis: thanks for the pointer :) 12:03:49 hotblack23 [n=jh@p4FC5A950.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:03:58 Belaf: https://chicken.wiki.br/svn/chicken-eggs/release/4/defstruct/trunk/defstruct.scm 12:04:00 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ybs756c 12:04:08 heh; defstruct uses string->symbol, too; so you're in good company ;) 12:05:54 Uhm, this site seems to require authorization 12:05:54 for reasons i don't understand, though, this does not work: 12:06:09 Belaf: user: anonymous; pass: 12:06:26 incubot: (let ((f (lambda () 'hey-now!))) (apply (eval (string->symbol "f")) '())) 12:06:26 Error: unbound variable: f 12:07:56 this, however, does: 12:07:59 incubot: (define (f) 'hey-now!) (apply (eval (string->symbol "f")) '()) 12:07:59 hey-now! 12:08:30 eval defaults to top-level? 12:08:37 specbot: r5rs eval 12:08:37 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_578 12:08:39 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4qfyda 12:10:20 incubot: (let ((f (lambda () 'hey-now!))) (apply (eval (string->symbol "f") (interaction-environment)) '())) 12:10:21 Error: unbound variable: f 12:10:24 nope 12:12:14 klutometis: lunch time here, I need to leave... thanks for your help. 12:12:22 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 12:14:15 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 12:22:14 mkrauskopf [n=emdot@195.47.79.66] has joined #scheme 12:37:48 mkrauskopf pasted "simple sample problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93180 12:38:00 Hi. I'm having problem with the pastie. 12:38:10 I would expect that derivative application to the lambda (x*x) will return the lambda in the body of derivative which is then applied to the 333 argument. 12:38:28 Any help appreciated. Coming from Haskell so likely I misunderstood some semantics wrt. to parenthesis. Thanks. Googling further in the meantime... 12:39:35 uh, and error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: 333 (no arguments) 12:41:06 (f (x)) is wrong 12:41:35 Uh, just thanks! 12:41:54 rudybot: eval (define epsilon 0.0001) 12:41:55 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 12:42:01 rudybot: eval (define (derivative f) (lambda (x) (/ (- (f (+ x epsilon)) (f x)) epsilon))) 12:42:02 It consider 'x' function and want to apply it, right? 12:42:05 I see. 12:42:08 rudybot: eval (display ((derivative (lambda (x) (* x x))) 333)) 12:42:08 *offby1: ; stdout: "666.000099881785" 12:42:11 klutometis annotated #93180 "don't evaluate the number" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93180#1 12:42:40 offby1: nice; a paste-jinx 12:42:41 rudybot: eval http://paste.lisp.org/display/93180#1 12:42:41 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93180#1 in module: 'program 12:42:45 *sigh* 12:42:58 rudybot: eval http://paste.lisp.org/display/93180,1/raw 12:42:58 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93180 in module: 'program 12:43:02 rudybot: init http://paste.lisp.org/display/93180,1/raw 12:43:03 *offby1: error: make-evaluator: expecting a single `module' program; got more than a single expression 12:43:08 this _never_ works. 12:43:17 rudybot: init scheme 12:43:18 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 12:44:16 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:00:05 -!- ecloud [n=rutledge@ip72-208-148-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:16 rudybot: eval (+ 1 2 (- (* (- 3 4 5) 6 7 8)) -9) 13:03:16 *offby1: ; Value: 2010 13:06:34 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:07:15 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:10:01 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179142053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:11:12 klutometis: now I understand what you were trying to accomplish earlier... so there's no way to make eval see the f definition? 13:11:57 turbinio [n=tobias@141.76.6.108] has joined #scheme 13:13:36 I think it would be equivalent to have eval use the "current environment", if that is the right way to say it :) 13:16:57 -!- mkrauskopf [n=emdot@195.47.79.66] has left #scheme 13:17:47 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:22:42 -!- turbinio [n=tobias@141.76.6.108] has left #scheme 13:24:18 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:26:10 Belaf: yeah, exactly; i'm not sure how to invoke it, though 13:26:31 thought it would have been (interaction-environment); maybe it's a bug; maybe i don't understand the spec 13:27:01 you have to effectively define it, then invoke it; the lexical scope seems to break with let 13:30:46 -!- jao [n=jao@80.31.222.61] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:09 klutometis: I made some tests with both my read-based solution and your string->symbol one, they both work the same way: they can refer to a top level defined function but not to a locally (?) defined one - I tried with both with "(let ((f (lambda ..." and with "(define f (lambda ...", it's just the same. 13:33:45 Is it the normal "eval" behavior to ignore local definitions? It looks like all the three (XXX-environment) which can be used with eval only refer to top-level definitions. 13:35:05 It is normal 13:35:11 Scheme is not PHP 13:35:35 If you want, you can use the environments egg, klutometis 13:41:29 Well, for my use case accessing top-level definitions is good enough, and I'm not sure I could find a use case for needing to generate the name of a lexically scoped function... 13:43:43 You can always write a macro that expands to a let and adds the same definitions to an environment 13:45:57 not sure I understand you... I would need to define a new function using the same definition? But I would need to have that definiton, then, right? 13:46:08 huh? 13:46:24 ok, then I didn't understand you :-) 13:46:53 Never mind then ;) 13:50:37 sjamaan: "scheme is not php"; classic. that's the first thing i thought, btw, when string->symbol came up 13:51:22 nor Perl neither 13:51:42 :) 13:52:52 My original attempt was to write a macro which generated functions, e.g.: (make-getter "struct" "field") should return struct-get-field, as a function, not as a string... I was looking for something like the "##" concatenation of the C preprocessor, but I guess that "scheme is not C" either ;-) 13:53:37 To be more precise, the macro should generate function references, not function definitions. 13:53:47 Belaf: You can only do that with a macro. You can just use string-append and symbol->string 13:54:05 If you're new, the general rule of thumb is: don't do macros 13:54:16 If you're experienced, the rule of thumb is: avoid macros if you can 13:54:33 Argh. that's what I'm trying to learn... :) 13:55:56 Your suggestion matches with the one given by klutometis: 13:56:08 (define-syntax string->function 13:56:09 (syntax-rules () ((_ s) (eval (string->symbol s))))) 13:56:36 we were just trying to understand if it could be made to work with lexically scoped functions. 13:58:07 But it's just a matter of curiosity, so I'll stop wasting everybody's time :-) 14:03:43 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:08 Belaf: did you ask about this on the PLT mailing list recently? _Someone_ did. 14:06:11 Belaf: good summary 14:07:45 offby1: no, it wasn't me. Was there any answer I could read? 14:11:17 ok, I found the thread, thanks. 14:11:36 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 14:24:05 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-102.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:27:23 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-113-134.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 14:27:54 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:32:31 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 14:33:01 so how is this for defining a grammar rule that matches [1, 2, 3] => (rule start (<> "[]" (% #/\d+/ #\,))) 14:33:26 n0n0 [n=noam@188.88.96.36] has joined #scheme 14:33:26 -!- n0am [n=noam@188.88.96.36] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:33:59 <> is the `pair' operator, % is the `infix' operator 14:37:10 this will match [1 2, 3, 4] as well wouldn't it? 14:37:36 hrm, let me try it 14:38:13 also it seems the separator is always required [ 1, 2, 3,] 14:38:45 but I am not familiar with this notation 14:38:50 I think that depends on what the operator does :) 14:39:09 C-Keen: that's becuase I'm making it up as I go along ;) 14:39:38 (test-parse "[1 2, 3, 4]" '((<> "[]" (% #/\d+/ #\,)))) => expected `]' @ the 2 position 14:40:21 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.235.105] has quit [Operation timed out] 14:41:11 I'm trying to create a parser generator that has *some* built in error handling 14:46:44 the pair op has a few different forms, like if the first arg is a string and contains whitespace: (<> "" start), will match 14:47:13 still have a lot of work to do, but all the operators are complete 14:47:18 I don't like "try-to-DWIM" code 14:47:44 hrm, well that's why I'm asking ;) 14:47:46 It never truly does what you mean, and then you have to dig into its exact behaviour in excruciating detail to understand when it behaves how exactly 14:48:06 Ruby has a lot of procedures that do this kind of thing 14:48:10 It's aggravating 14:48:34 but but but that's what *good* docs are for. I'm writing the docs as I code 14:48:52 Nobody reads docs unless they have to 14:49:00 ahahah 14:49:05 so true 14:49:09 This type of code effectively forces someone to read the docs 14:49:28 slom [n=ibook@pD9EB58FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:49:29 It's better to have clear, unambiguous procedures 14:49:37 That do one thing and do it well ;) 14:56:59 <> and % are like derived funcs in scheme, they just build on more primitive procedures, like <> could just be (#\[ "foo" #\]), % could just be ("foo" (* #\, "foo")) where * is a primitive that means the same as the average regexp 15:03:45 visof [n=visof@41.238.235.105] has joined #scheme 15:08:33 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:39 irc2samus [n=Samus_@r190-135-15-41.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 15:11:34 -!- irc2samus [n=Samus_@r190-135-15-41.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #scheme 15:12:20 bytecolor, why not call it delimited-list rather than <>, and make it take start, stop, seperator, and item subpatterns? 15:12:49 That would be too obvious ;) 15:13:11 alaricsp: nod I could very well do that I suppose. 15:13:16 (delimited-list "") 15:13:27 Er, not #\m, #\, - I can't type 15:14:50 hehe, well, for one any bnf uses *symbols* for operators, not names. Trying to keep it from being too verbose. 15:14:56 sjamaan: i take it nothing like a lex-fold exists for abnf; which repeatedly matches tokens in a stream and adds the processed tokens to an aggregator as long as there are unprocessed chars 15:15:33 That's a tradition in BNF, but BNF inherets from notations from set theory designed for people to write by hand 15:15:37 Kleene stars and all that 15:15:39 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.125.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:48 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingh@173-31-122-80.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:15:50 nod 15:15:53 On a computer, it can be worth going for verbosity... within reason ;-) 15:16:10 BRB, getting food! 15:16:13 klutometis: there's "many", but I guess that's not what you're looking for 15:17:11 klutometis: interesting; i'm writing a lex-fold, but it's awkward. maybe i can share it with you later 15:18:02 I think I understand what you mean now. many in combination with bind would do this too 15:18:18 (more or less) 15:19:59 sjamaan: hmm; where's many defined? 15:20:29 Oh, sorry, it's named 'repetition' 15:22:55 i mean something along the lines of: lex successfully matches a token t on stream s with pattern p; relex s - t with p, and add (f t) to some aggregator a 15:23:02 repeat until s in null 15:23:11 i'm not talking about kleene stars 15:23:30 s/s in null/s is null/ 15:24:56 isn't that a common pattern if you have a stream of n tokens? 15:25:41 Well, you can use bind with f and p, and put repetition around it, binding that result to a procedure that converts the list to your aggregator 15:25:57 But indeed, it might be more elegant to fold 15:26:06 oh, i see; repetition around bind? that's novel 15:26:43 sure, bind doesn't affect the parsers, only the result 15:27:13 cky [n=cky@h-166-166-121-56.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 15:27:25 bind is equivalent to a semantic action in yacc, for example 15:27:59 (well, not exactly, but it's used for the same purpose) 15:28:12 that makes sense; you're right, though, that i don't need anything more sophisticated than plain fold; lex-fold is unnecessary sugar 15:28:43 That depends on what you do with the result and how big the list is expected to be 15:29:18 It's unnecessary overhead; it's like first calling map and then fold versus using just fold and using the mapped procedure in the folding procedure 15:30:21 you mean in terms of repetition/bind vs. fold? 15:31:04 yeah 15:32:39 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["i'm quitting irc"] 15:32:49 I don't know if that makes any sense 15:35:48 holy shit, it works; fantastic 15:37:01 cool 15:37:29 -!- cky_ [n=cky@h-96-15-122-169.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:39:01 alaricsp: actually <> isn't even a procedure, it's just '<>. The main parser dispatches to infix-parser when it reads '<>. There are no macros yet, aside from rule. 15:41:16 Is there a way to extend the parsers? 15:41:31 Like what klutometis just wanted? 15:42:22 sjamaan: I haven't gotten to attributes yet. All I have so far is a place in the parse-status obj that I'll use at some point 15:42:40 sjamaan: I couldn't really follow what you guys were trying to do 15:43:08 there are no `actions' yet 15:43:35 it's just basically a glorified tokenizer at this point 15:44:36 bytecolor: Well, the question is, could I add '<> myself, if it wasn't there? 15:44:36 a syntax checker for any given grammar would be a better definition I suppose 15:45:35 sjamaan: hrm I'd have to think on that. 15:45:56 Lisp folks tend to appreciate extensibility ;) 15:46:11 certainly ;) 15:46:53 *alaricsp* returns with food 15:47:07 wb 15:48:10 The pipes defrosted! 15:48:24 I put the dishwasher on, with great pleasure :-) 15:48:57 hurrah! 15:49:38 *alaricsp* tries to make a joke about streams and ports... but fails. 15:50:03 sjamaan: well I can use (rule <> ...) but the ... has to be esparse primitives, probably not what you mean 15:50:31 indeed 15:52:54 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:53:53 sjamaan: it's good you put that in my head as my dispatch procedure only works with a pre-defined set of operators 15:55:19 If that's required to make it fast, or some other reason, that's ok. If it's just a limitation, go read the first page of R5RS :) 15:56:59 You could for example make the dispatcher an alist or hash-table of symbol->procedure mappings 15:57:46 I haven't begun profiling. I'll get it working, then I'll make it fast... but only where it needs to be ;) 15:57:49 Or you could use an object system and make symbols method names 15:58:19 nod, I really dont want to get into an clos-type systems just yet 15:58:28 A wise decision :) 15:58:59 I have C++ for that 15:59:12 I find prometheus to be a good match for this kind of things 15:59:22 It's simple too 15:59:24 prometheus? 15:59:35 It's an object system 15:59:43 chicken.wiki.br/eggref/4/prometheus 15:59:57 ah 16:01:26 need #xf00d, bbl 16:04:10 sjamaan: That's because you love Javascript :-) 16:04:31 I don't really _love_ it. It's a nice language and better than most people think it is 16:04:51 It has no TCO and its implementation of prototypical inheritance is downright _weird_ 16:05:00 And it has too many quirks you need to remember 16:06:54 I certainly prefer it over PHP and Ruby ;) 16:07:00 eno_ [n=eno@70.137.156.54] has joined #scheme 16:07:05 (but then, who wouldn't?) 16:07:51 I wasn't deriding you for loving JS :-) 16:08:36 heh 16:08:50 No need to get all defensive :-) 16:08:56 *sjamaan* does that 16:09:02 It's a bad habit 16:11:48 masm [n=masm@bl10-6-120.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 16:12:48 Poor sjamaan 16:12:50 My wife is prone to this 16:13:06 When I was having to turn off the main water valve for the house yesterday, for example 16:13:25 It's at the back of a cupboard 16:13:32 -!- n0n0 [n=noam@188.88.96.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:35 But the cupboard shelf is so placed as to make it hard to turn the valve 16:13:42 So I had to empty the cupboard and move the shelf, which was awkward 16:13:48 I grumbled about this, and she flew into a defensive rage 16:13:59 :S 16:14:01 As it turned out she'd asked the builders, when rebuilding the kitchen after the flood, to put a cupboard there 16:14:07 For before there'd been a freezer 16:14:22 She asked for a cupboard, to make it easier to get to the valve 16:14:32 It was no fault of hers that they put the shelf in at an awkward height! 16:14:39 heh 16:14:47 But, still, she felt I was complaining about her choices :-) 16:14:56 n0n0 [n=noam@188.88.249.146] has joined #scheme 16:15:05 Understandable 16:15:08 Not helped by me saying "Well, at least when it was the freezer there, once we pulled the freezer out it was easy to get to the valve" :-) 16:15:15 Whoops. 16:15:24 LOL 16:15:35 bad move 16:15:42 Quite! 16:16:09 I had to sit her down and explain "Sometimes things don't come out quite right, but that doesn't mean we're stupid, or that we shouldn't have bothered trying in the first place" :-) 16:16:20 -!- n0n0 [n=noam@188.88.249.146] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:11 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:32 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-166-121-56.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:35 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 16:22:28 copumpkin [n=copumpki@pat32.dartmouth-secure.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 16:36:42 kinda strange to make decisions about kitchen layout without consulting SO first 16:36:55 then again I've never lived with a significant other, so what do I know? 16:42:04 lol 16:42:06 (define (sqrt x) 16:42:06 (the y (and (>= y 0) 16:42:07 (= (square y) x)))) 16:42:23 it'd be cool if there was a "the" operator that does what you mean like that :) 16:43:16 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:54 (define (the x . rest) (sqrt-primive x)) 16:44:45 masm: It'd need to be a macro 16:45:01 Now you will get errors about y (and it will never stop looping, either) 16:45:18 oh wait, square != sqrt 16:45:25 Ignore the looping comment 16:45:27 *sjamaan* is tired 16:46:07 the code I posted was from the section of SICP talking about the difference between functions (in the mathematical sense) and procedures (or functions in the CS sense) 16:50:03 sjamaan: (hash-table-set! user-op-table '*** foo-parser), now a custom parser will get called. I could probably get by with an a-list. 16:50:14 yay 16:50:48 but foo parser's arity has to be 2, the current parse position and the cdr of the procedure call 16:53:28 klutometis: in case you are interested, I might have found the way to write my string->function so that it works even for lexically scoped functions. 16:54:23 Where's mario? 16:54:30 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 16:54:41 mm, wrong channel ;) 16:54:44 (kinda) 16:56:17 has anyone heard of parametric operators? (3-9 "foo") will match 3 to 9 "foo"'s 16:57:32 yes it could be (range-parser 3 9 "foo"), but that's just too damn much typing ;) 16:58:33 You could also just say <-> or "between" or "in" or "to" :) 16:58:57 Or just "range" 16:59:02 nod 16:59:11 You don't have the -parser suffix after <> either :) 17:01:03 cky [n=cky@h-98-105-55-130.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 17:01:19 I have a few others: (3> #\x) match 3 or more x's, (>3 #\x) match zero to 3 x's. It's a trip how you can bend scheme to your will. 17:02:13 You could write a reader extension to expand to something longer, if you don't want the typing 17:02:26 hrm 17:03:19 See that's something I didn't think scheme had for a while. read syntax macros, like lisp. It wasn't in R5RS and that's what I was using for a while. 17:03:40 Most Schemes have something like that 17:04:10 (remember the regex literals? those are implemented like that too) 17:04:10 nod, the regex-literals read syntax is just too too cool 17:04:13 yep 17:04:17 heh 17:06:04 hrm how would the read syntax discern 3> from 4> ? is the chicken read syntax extension based on an srfi? 17:06:19 Read syntax must always start with # 17:06:22 (afaik) 17:06:31 Read the fine manual ;) 17:06:31 ah 17:06:46 nobody reads the manual! 17:07:10 Well, I don't know it off the top of my head 17:07:14 saccade_ [n=saccade@c-76-26-103-134.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:07:30 I'll dig it up later 17:07:37 Check the code for regex-literals then 17:08:12 I need to get rid of the | foo | syntax so I can use | for my alternate parser 17:09:07 || is just too much typing ;) 17:09:33 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.132.98.191] has joined #scheme 17:09:53 Reader macros are a double-edged sword 17:10:09 Great for augmenting source code, not so great if you want to use s-exprs for data interchange 17:10:31 Especially if you can accidentally stumble into them with otherwise innocuous symbols, which is what the starts-with-# convention strives to avoid 17:10:50 hrm what is chicken looking for when I type | in the repl? it's not listed in the non-standard ready syntax sec of the manual 17:10:53 alaricsp: I see 17:11:18 I thought it was for symbols with white space 17:11:48 Yes, the reader sees a | and reads a symbol up to the next | 17:12:03 It's not something like ' -> (quote ...) 17:12:10 ah, so it is 17:12:16 It's part of the basic tokenising 17:12:31 now, how do I turn that off, oh so I can't? 17:12:46 Not sure 17:12:51 Take a look at the reader source code 17:12:56 nod 17:13:06 can integers overflow in scheme? 17:13:10 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-33-246.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:13:18 uman: That depends 17:13:35 alaricsp: on what, the implementation? I'm using plt-scheme 17:15:14 uman: maybe google plt bignums 17:15:25 thanks 17:15:32 Or just test it :) 17:16:28 (expt 2 128) for example 17:17:22 (expt 100 (expt 2 100)) 17:17:37 That would do, too ;) 17:18:03 I wonder how long that'd take to execute 17:18:35 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-102.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:19:01 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:01 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.235.105] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:20:04 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@c-76-26-103-134.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:22:14 (require-extension numbers) (time (expt 100 (ext 2 100))) 17:22:29 *expt 17:22:42 probably until you run out of memory ;) 17:23:05 I don't feel like working my processor fan on overdrive until drscheme runs out of memory 17:23:10 :) 17:23:37 that was for chicken scheme any way ;) 17:23:41 rudybot: eval (/ (expt 2 12800) (expt 2 12799)) 17:23:42 synx: your scheme/base sandbox is ready 17:23:42 synx: ; Value: 2 17:24:06 Takes no perceptible time at all to perform the above calculation, for me. 17:24:33 what is rudybot using? 17:24:46 PLT 17:24:48 synx: same here... 17:25:08 I know PLT doesn't do symbolic algebra at all, but it has some pretty scary optimizations... 17:26:02 well, I don't think it's somehow optimizing away the calls to expt there 17:26:09 synx: since (expt 2 12800) also takes no time 17:26:56 yeah... 17:26:59 expt 2 foo is easy to optimise 17:27:33 (/ (expt 1280000 1280000) (expt 1280000 1280000)) takes a few seconds 17:27:35 indeed 17:30:51 (define (square-n-times x n) (define (square y) (* y y)) (if (= n 1) (square x) (square (square-n-times x (- n 1))))) 17:31:07 I wonder how long it will take before desktop PCs can calculate (square-n-times 100 100) :) 17:31:46 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:32:01 visof [n=visof@41.238.235.105] has joined #scheme 17:33:45 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 17:34:03 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 17:39:49 uman: That sounds like the kind of order of magnitude that runs into physical limitations 17:40:35 probably 17:40:56 but if I've learned one thing in my life, it's never say never about technology 17:43:33 uman: also, never get involved in a land war in asia 17:46:13 s/land // 17:46:19 s/ in asia// 17:48:28 by the way, for any non-mathematicians present, (square-n-times 100 100) is equivalent to (expt 100 (expt 2 100)) 17:50:16 oceania has always been at war with eastasia 17:53:14 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:13 Roin [n=florian@p5B2BD239.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:54:47 Hi 17:57:19 Roin: hi! 17:59:01 Hi uman ! 18:07:45 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:22:15 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:25:08 mejja pasted "C.L.L Prime Benchmark - Something Just Ain't Right" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93186 18:27:36 Ehe. 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Stared for almost ten minutes at a function named `cossa' before I realized it was Bizarro for `assoc'. 23:33:09 visof [n=visof@41.238.235.105] has joined #scheme 23:36:30 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:38:46 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 23:44:15 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DD0F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:48:31 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.235.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:33 devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-75.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #scheme