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03:52:17 karlw [i=17389@tsunami.OCF.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:52:33 tjaway [n=timj@e176198234.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:52:52 cky [n=cky@h-98-105-29-93.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 03:54:23 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:55:58 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 03:59:13 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-179.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:44 -!- meric [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 04:00:39 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:03:06 meric [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 04:04:42 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 04:06:50 -!- karlw [i=17389@tsunami.OCF.Berkeley.EDU] has left #scheme 04:09:04 meric_ [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 04:09:45 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176207084.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:12:47 eli: happy new year! 04:13:16 Fare: Yes, occasionalyy. 04:13:28 s/lyy/lly/ 04:14:03 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:14:44 eli: just fooling around -- I started writing something that'd parse a file (rudybot's log, actually) and wandered off ... 04:16:16 Definitely sounds like you wandered... 04:17:01 I guess you could do log-file stuffs by a sequence of preprocessors that tweak the data down to something like sexprs, but that much preprocessing work leads to perl... 04:19:37 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 04:19:43 well, the log file is basically a prefix or two followed by a scheme string 04:19:46 so it's easy to parse 04:22:51 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 04:28:36 -!- meric [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:36 -!- meric_ is now known as meric 04:39:50 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:40:03 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 04:42:08 -!- akitada [n=user@unaffiliated/akitada] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:21 -!- meric [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 04:48:13 meric [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 04:50:29 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:59:02 arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 05:15:43 -!- samth [n=samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:11 akitada [n=user@unaffiliated/akitada] has joined #scheme 05:31:22 -!- akitada [n=user@unaffiliated/akitada] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:52:59 -!- WuJiang [n=wujiang@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 05:59:48 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:06:15 wu_ [n=wujiang@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 06:07:33 -!- wu_ [n=wujiang@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 06:16:32 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:09 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:36:31 reprore_ [n=reprore@EM114-48-103-209.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:43:42 arcfide pasted "Datum-weak Hashtables in Chez Scheme" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92945 06:43:45 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@EM114-48-103-209.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:44:35 arcfide annotated #92945 "Example use" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92945#1 06:44:51 Ah, I do all that cool work and Riastradh is not even here. 06:47:18 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 06:47:45 arcfide, you're leaking space for every datum-weak hash table ever created. 06:48:08 Where? 06:48:13 This is a rough draft, remember. 06:48:38 I'm almost certain there are bugs in it. 06:49:34 I also don't claim that this is the fastest implementation of datum weak hashtables on the planet. In fact, it's rather slow. 06:49:38 Each construction of a datum-weak hash table creates a fresh closure over the current request handler. 06:49:53 (Also, it is a little silly for the usual hash table operations not to work on these objects.) 06:50:07 Ah, yes, I figured that was what you are talking about. That can be fixed easily enough. 06:50:10 (Also, `hashtable' is a silly term.) 06:51:00 sassie1 [n=chatzill@c-66-30-209-160.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:51:04 Riastradh: Naturally, a little more work has to be done on a system that doesn't support datum-weak hash tables, but that's not unreasonable given the alternative. 06:51:15 -!- sassie1 [n=chatzill@c-66-30-209-160.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6b5/20091204143806]"] 06:51:22 Riastradh: and the name itself is . . . *shrug*. 06:51:34 The alternative being to update the existing hash table implementation? 06:52:04 Riastradh: How do you propose to do that without having to actually alter the implementation source code? Yeah, you could do that, but no, I was looking for a solution that didn't require that. 06:52:19 Riastradh: And you did claim that you couldn't see how it could possibly be done. 06:52:37 The alternative is not having datum weak hashtables at all. 06:52:54 Assuming that you don't want to mess with the internal implementation of hashtables on your Scheme system. 06:53:56 Well, gee, in some Scheme systems, you could just edit the source code, submit a patch to the maintainers, and whether or not they apply it, you can still use it and distribute it freely... 06:54:52 I didn't say that it wasn't possible, or even that I couldn't see how it could possibly be done. 06:55:13 I should add, "without something like PLT's ephemor" whatever you call them. 06:55:33 That's not all. 06:56:38 (By the way, datum-weak hash tables are typically not keyed by objects under identity. The symbol table is perhaps the most common example of a hash table that should be datum-weak, and it is necessarily keyed by strings under structural equality. 06:56:42 ) 06:58:18 what is 'ephemor'? 06:58:20 Riastradh: Well I can't find the email you wrote to me about it just a little bit ago, so I must be blind, but you can remind me about your exact words, if you want. 07:00:02 elly, a typo for `ephemeron'. An ephemeron is an object with two locations that weakly hold subobjects, called the key and datum of the ephemeron. If the storage for the key of an ephemeron is reclaimed, then the storage for its datum may also be reclaimed, but the storage for its datum will not be reclaimed until the storage for the key is reclaimed. 07:00:37 ah, useful 07:00:44 arcfide, I said: `Lacking what PLT Scheme calls ``ephemerons'', the only way I can think of to implement [datum-weak hash tables] is to periodically clean each hash table, or else dormant hash tables will have strong references to keys that persist long after the reclamation of the storage for their associated data.' 07:01:31 Ephemerons are useful mainly for implementing weak hash tables (key-weak or datum-weak, but not key-and-datum-weak). 07:02:20 Riastradh: Okay, so, this is an implementation that does not require periodic cleaning of the entire hashtable, and I don't see any strong references to keys that will persist long after storage is reclaimed. 07:02:40 It also doesn't require ephemerons. 07:04:10 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 07:04:20 is it better get married young or to spend one's life programming? 07:04:40 Yep, it's a clever idea, although if you expand the abstraction to admit user-supplied key hash functions and key equality predicates, then garbage collection may run in time proportional to the running time of hashing or comparing keys. 07:05:16 (as many keys as have lost their data) 07:05:56 That, by the way, was a reply to arcfide, not an answer to optimizer's question, in case it wasn't clear. 07:07:06 Riastradh: Indeed, it would be nice to get around that, though I haven't thought that far ahead on this. 07:08:25 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-12-196.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:08:48 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-12-196.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:09:42 -!- adzuci [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:12:46 Anyways, thanks for pointing out the leak, and maybe if I'm very very very very clever, I might discover a way to generalize without messing too much with garbage collection time. Maybe. 07:12:51 Good night! 07:13:18 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #scheme 07:14:20 adzuci [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 07:16:35 i recall in the early days of my life 07:16:37 Just use a single handler with a weak list of mumbles to frob... 07:16:37 when nothing else mattered 07:16:46 and I coul djust code for months on a project 07:16:50 and these days ,i'm constantly distracted 07:16:57 and I miss the old days, when nothing else in life mattered 07:17:06 is it just me, or do you guys also experience this? 07:17:16 and part of me is wondering if it's because life is beocming morecomplex 07:17:23 and i need to just throw aways aspects of my lif 07:17:28 until all is left is the basic necessities of life 07:17:29 a computer 07:17:32 and a scheme interpreter 07:18:21 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 07:20:30 02:16 < optimizer> and I miss the old days, when nothing else in life mattered 07:20:44 I think that that factor is entirely under your control - what matters in life is up to you :) 07:21:51 :))))  <3 ;) ^_^ =^_^= 07:23:31 synx: ...what 07:24:07 just didn't think you were giving enough knowing smiles for people to properly perceive your beneficient wisdom. 07:24:20 oh 07:24:22 you don't need to thank me 07:24:27 alright 07:24:53 *synx* just loves optimism, can you tell? 07:25:12 it sounds like you are being sarcastic, although it is hard to be certain 07:25:59 Believe it or not, I'm even more enigmatic in person. 07:26:42 in any case, optimizer, outside of the things you need to do to live, you can do whatever you want to - so if you want there to be nothing other than hacking, make it so! 07:27:09 elly: do you not have problem focusing as you age? 07:27:17 I'm only 20, optimizer 07:27:21 i find that the older I grow, the more distracted I become 07:27:33 I have focus problems if and only if I am on IRC/IM/etc as I code 07:27:41 otherwise, with just a fullscreen editor, I have no problems 07:28:57 sounds like a hormonal thing 07:29:09 *elly* rolls her eyes at synx 07:29:27 *synx* was talking about optimizer. 07:29:33 ? 07:29:54 checked your thyroid levels recently? 07:30:05 i've never checked them 07:30:09 wtf are thyroid levels 07:30:11 optimizer: what's your usual coding environment like? 07:30:21 two giant 28" lcd monitors 07:30:25 dark room 07:30:29 optimizer: do you tend to code in a different place from where you sleep and where you work? 07:30:30 flurorescent lights 07:30:43 bed & desk in same room 07:30:51 (I find that for some reason it helps if I am away from places that have other associations) 07:31:19 JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 07:31:57 the thought of sex does not distract me from coding; 07:32:07 it's more stuff like "oh shit, i'm growing older, i will have responsibilities" 07:32:09 um... it's an uncommon issue as people age, that the thyroid gland starts to either over or under perform. Affects attention, aggression and vim. 07:32:23 I'm just shooting in the dark here, sorry. 07:32:32 i'm < 25 07:32:43 I've known three people with abnormal thyroid levels... all hit after the 20's and into the 30s. 07:32:47 not into the alzhimers stage yet 07:32:57 heh 07:33:46 optimizer: well, have less responsibilities? :P 07:33:55 this brings up the questio nof marriage 07:33:59 oh dear 07:34:06 the right solutio nto "have less responsibilities" appears to be "don't ge tmarried" 07:34:21 heh :P 07:34:35 It might just be your experience. It's a lot easier for younger people to care more, since they don't know it's not all that important after all. 07:35:04 synx: so the solution is to get married, divorce, become jaded, then get married (but this time care less) and be able to code w/o distractions? :-) 07:35:07 Older people can take things easier, because they don't have to learn what's dangerous at that point. Thus, less motivation to be attentive. 07:35:35 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 07:36:00 i think what I really need 07:36:04 is a compotent girl 07:36:14 to take care of all things in life (finances, children, food, housing, etc ..) 07:36:14 competent at what? 07:36:18 er. 07:36:19 so I can just focus at coding 07:36:25 If you're going to declare your everlasting affection to someone, I wouldn't advise doing it with a sadomasochistic bondage ritual like marriage. 07:36:26 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 07:36:26 that seems like a lot to ask from a partner? 07:36:44 Moin moin! 07:36:45 There are better contracts out there, albeit with less government funding perhaps. 07:37:07 elly: aim high! 07:37:10 synx: the government funding can add up enough to make it worth it, even if you disagree with it philosophically :\ 07:37:23 True enough elly... 07:37:30 optimizer: er... yes, but you are more or less asking your partner to be your servant, at that point 07:37:33 I'd marry someone who lived in Canada. 07:37:40 optimizer: aiming high means aiming for an equal relationship :P 07:38:15 elly: can one imagine what else Tesla could have done for the world if he had a girl like that? 07:38:32 I hope you are not being serious :P 07:38:41 lol Tesla 07:38:43 about Tesla? 07:38:46 that guy was amazing 07:39:03 no, about indenturing women so men can do more 07:39:12 Einstein had a girl like that. He was a total bastard to his wives... 07:39:51 Even signed a prenuptual declaring when they were allowed to be in each other's company. 07:40:02 wow. 07:40:04 synx: reference please 07:40:11 I would like to copy that agreement. 07:40:19 I want to get married some day, but not to a guy like that 07:40:21 aw dammit, I heard it like a decade ago hold on. 07:40:40 elly: is a man that is determined on pushing the frontiers of human knowledge not attractgive? 07:41:04 I've always felt that many girls end up pursuing their own careers instead of being house wives mainly because most men are incompotent 07:41:24 optimizer: a man that wants me to give up programming so that he can have more time for his hobbies is not worth having. 07:41:34 *optimizer* prays there is not a feminist with op access on #scheme 07:41:39 protip: 07:41:42 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o elly 07:41:47 be nice :) 07:41:50 -!- elly has set mode -o elly 07:42:15 elly: Not even when he is a God in bed? 07:42:21 I think any man would be lucky to be marriexd to be a schemer. 07:42:25 pbusser: you'd be surprised how unimportant that is. 07:42:25 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 07:42:50 um... looks like it might be a wild goose tale 07:42:51 elly: You'd be surprised how important it is to other women. :-) 07:43:06 pbusser: especially then 07:43:09 pbusser: I'm not sure that I would :P 07:43:20 There's nothing more on topic than a bunch of scheme programmers in a scheme channel talking about women 07:43:24 http://www.torrentdownloads.net/torrent/831703/The+Unbelievable+Truth+Series+3+%282009%29+%5BDABRadioRip+%28mp3%29%5D+BedtimeBear 07:43:25 indeed 07:43:26 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ykggllr 07:44:04 at the risk of getting kickeed by elly 07:44:04 pbusser: yeah, because there's nothing a woman likes better than a man who's more competent than her when she's vulnerable and exposed. 07:44:33 I am unlikely to kick you as long as you remain civil 07:44:43 Woemn have the right to be as successful at their career as they wish; Men have the right to not marry such women (and one that fully supports her husband's career). 07:44:50 certainly 07:45:30 Men however do not have the right to marry all the women, leaving nothing left over for any of the other men to share. 07:45:41 *elly* blinks at synx 07:45:44 unless your name is Ganghis Khan 07:45:53 or Zeus 07:45:55 lol Genghis Khan 07:46:02 Zeus was a playa 07:46:33 You know you're awesome when Hercules is your son. 07:48:09 where in this world 07:48:21 can I find a girl who will sacrifice all to support my pursuits? :-) 07:48:33 that, I think, is the most impotant question of all 07:48:39 Buy a mail order bride 07:48:44 And go away. 07:48:44 ... 07:48:57 I don't think that's what you want optimizer. 07:48:58 To #defocus, for example 07:49:17 good idea Jafet 07:49:35 indeed, that is probably a better place than here 07:49:41 alright; i'll go on topic 07:49:47 are there any good schemes on llvm? 07:49:53 it seems like llvm, with it's jit and low level management 07:49:58 is the ideal system for a scheme implementation 07:50:08 (since alot, scheme48, plt, ikarus have their own jits right now instead) 07:50:21 yet i'm surprised that on llvm, the only schemees there are < 2KLOC toy scheme interpreters 07:50:59 I thought llvm was a C compiler... 07:51:22 There is a C compiler targeting LLVM and LLVM is based on GCC, but no 07:51:27 no, LLVM is a virtual machine that compiles a platform-independent IR into machine code 07:51:29 it's called CLang 07:51:34 HLLs can target that IR easily 07:51:39 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-34-35.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:52:07 What makes a scheme interpreter a toy? 07:52:38 not satisfying r5rs 07:52:43 lack of debugging support 07:52:46 lack of c ffi 07:52:49 bright colors and plastic fenders 07:53:06 Not satisfying r5rs means that most Scheme implementations are toy Schemes. 07:53:09 lack of a GC 07:53:15 optimizer, you are calling ikarus a toy 07:53:29 Most if not all. 07:53:29 let me rephrase it: supports less than 10% of r5rs 07:53:58 *MichaelRaskin* calculates intersection of R5RS and R6RS 07:56:19 I heard LLVM had troubles with multithreading and SMP support 07:56:20 LLVM already supplies garbage collection and FFI 07:56:26 Are they gone? 07:56:51 LLVm doesn't supply GC 07:56:55 Jafet, one still can fail implementing LLVM FFI 07:56:55 it suppots primitives to build GCs with 07:57:27 I don't understand how you can call something without GC a "scheme interpreter", optimizer 07:58:17 PLT has troubles with multithreading, so is it a toy? 07:58:40 Jafet: it eventaully runs out of memory 07:58:54 synx, I didn't say lack of good mt means "a toy" 07:59:41 Interesting that someone calls it a "scheme interpreter", then 07:59:44 optimizer, Jafet's point was that something without GC or tail call optimization shouldn't be called a Scheme interpreter 08:00:23 Lack of complete tail calling or continuations is one thing, lack of GC is another 08:00:50 Jafet, continuations are complex and forgivable, of course 08:01:19 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 08:01:45 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 08:01:50 mccarthy's original lisp lacked a gc 08:02:08 Support for optimization of tail calls seems to be what distinguishes Scheme family from larger Lisp family 08:02:34 McCarthy's Lisp didn't need one. 08:02:37 why is that so important? once I started using lcojure, i no longer miss it 08:02:59 The silly kids decided to put it on a computer, that's when all the problems started 08:03:21 it's important optimizer, because without tail call optimization, you end up with wasted stack frames for certain algorithms. 08:04:30 Scheme has its own family? 08:04:36 They grow up so fast 08:05:52 synx: i find that in most such cases, there's only O(1) functions that recursively call each other, in which case i can stuff it in a do loop 08:07:17 Recursion is so much more elegant. 08:08:04 I daresay it's as poignant and beautiful as recursion 08:08:28 optimizer: I often have a procedure that takes a loop as an argument. Within that procedure defined in another module, it applies the loop when ready to go to the next iteration. That's not something you can do with looping constructs. 08:10:57 dmoerner [n=dmr@rrcs-74-62-47-34.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:16:00 xwl [n=user@123.115.97.23] has joined #scheme 08:22:17 when does this show up? 08:22:20 working through sicp 08:22:23 this has never happened to me 08:22:25 this particular pattern you use 08:23:30 SICP tells you a lot about programs except for the writing them part 08:23:40 momentai 08:23:59 momentai? 08:24:03 never used this pattern 08:24:14 google says it's a digimon 08:24:36 rudybot: eval (define (over-naturals next) (let loop ((n 0)) (next n loop))) 08:24:36 synx: your scheme/base sandbox is ready 08:24:46 rudybot: eval (over-naturals ( (n loop) (display n) (newline) (when (< n 3) (loop (+ n 1))))) 08:24:47 synx: ; stdout: "0\n1\n2\n3\n" 08:27:43 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:28:02 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 08:37:40 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 08:38:14 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:39:19 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 08:46:40 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 08:53:23 JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-092-074-119-165.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:14:20 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@rrcs-74-62-47-34.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:04 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 09:34:24 elly: llvm is not really a vm. 09:37:04 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.163.1.72] has quit [] 09:37:23 how so, eli? 09:37:58 What kind of vm facilities do you usually expect? 09:38:38 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:39:26 basically just a language with defined syntax and semantics. 09:39:56 hm 09:40:01 With that definition, many things are a vm. 09:40:02 that definition is not particularly good 09:40:14 but I can't think of a tighter one that would not include things that obviously are vms 09:40:31 In fact, IIRC, one of the explicit llvm goals were to avoid being a vm so it doesn't interfere with real vms. They just refer to them as "highlevel vms". 09:40:53 For example, they provide some hooks for GCs to use, but they don't provide a GC. 09:41:04 indeed, but vmware doesn't provide a gc either 09:42:23 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:42:31 vmware is a completely different vm from the vm that llvm people call "highlevel vm" 09:42:41 indeed 09:42:42 A virtual machine is a software emulation of another machine 09:42:49 there are multiple meanings going on here :P 09:42:58 So you can pretty much call any software abstraction a VM 09:43:06 Jafet: I think that is equivalent to the definition I gave before 09:43:25 IRC VM -- pretend you are talking to real people! 09:43:32 heh :P 09:43:52 I find it much easier to be friendly on IRC if I remind myself that I am talking to real people 09:50:34 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:10:50 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:17:07 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:16 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-33-188.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 10:38:55 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-33-188.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:43:23 maybe we should just solve that problem by calling them "layers of abstraction" and keep a running count of how many are underneath our program 10:44:00 the microcode's connected to the, assembler code 10:49:31 incubot: i was reading huxley's account of "man's almost infinite appetite for distractions," when i realized that someone had taken the time to pepper the file with fi-ligatures 10:49:37 sorry, slow down, distractions are heckling me. 11:02:04 klutometis: so you understand fonts 11:04:23 Adamant: i was into typesetting for awhile; but especially loved frakturs with beautiful ligatures 11:04:31 q.v. http://www.waldenfont.com/product.asp?productID=2 11:04:41 ah. that's all over my head right now 11:05:08 I keep meaning to really learn graphics and typesetting stuff 11:05:22 then I end up reading EE and MechE intro books 11:06:24 caligraphy is how Woz got his start, apparently; there's enough technical detail there to satisfy an engineer's mind 11:06:49 not to mention the beauty of things like the medial s, etc. 11:08:41 ah, I thought that was Jobs 11:08:57 I know Jobs took a caligraphy and typesetting class at Reed before he dropped out 11:09:12 Adamant: maybe you're right 11:09:25 yeah, jobs 11:10:29 -!- snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:12:38 ejs [n=eugen@26-254-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 11:13:27 i used to infuriate my profs by quoting literature in its historical typeface: goethe? breitkopf fraktur, please; whitman? caslon book, thanks. 11:14:36 lol 11:16:10 Does anyone think learning Scheme / Lisp is 'tedious'? Its taking me longer than my first programming language. I'm just doing exercises out of a textbook... and they never end! 11:16:26 meric: what was your first language? and which book? 11:16:57 My first language was basic, (a long time ago)... the "how to design programs" book 11:17:08 now I predominantly program in lua though 11:17:11 htdp is hideously tedious 11:17:14 snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 11:17:16 meric: 'Very High Level Languages' like Scheme make you sit and think a lot 11:17:19 Try learning to fly an airplane, it takes less thinking 11:17:23 before you write anything 11:17:25 yeah it does... 11:17:28 Perhaps you'll like it better 11:17:36 meric: try SICP: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 11:17:40 ok 11:17:41 it's faster, and to the point 11:17:47 thanks :) 11:17:49 No it isn't 11:17:55 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:55 meric: if SICP is too rough, try the Schemer series then SICP 11:18:03 Jafet: yes it is; i detest htpd advocacy ;) 11:18:14 If you want to the point, you read Knuth 11:18:22 htpd just isn't very coherent or well-written 11:18:24 schemer isn't online, is it 11:18:25 Although he gets a bit weary with the pseudocode 11:18:36 knuth is pretty circumlocutive, actually; with all his bizarre quotations from the arabic corpus 11:18:45 SICP assumes quite a bit, but is better written 11:18:58 SICP assumes you have a brain 11:19:05 I think that's why MIT dropped it 11:19:10 heh 11:19:29 Jafet: it assumes you have more familiarity with programming than most undergraduates actually do 11:19:44 at the time they try to make them read it 11:20:02 is that actually the case? it seems to try to start from square 0 11:20:18 whereupon it rapidly accelerates, of course 11:20:31 The problem is many people are at square 2b 11:20:39 klutometis: yes, the problem is there's usually more to fill in along the way 11:20:54 than they get around to handling 11:21:23 Jafet: and already have hardened prejudices about programming, you mean? 11:21:25 I was making a website with php and decided php sucked, so I looked for something else. HTML is made in a tree form, and so is Scheme code so I thought Scheme might be better to make websites with so I decided to look at it. 11:21:47 meric: scheme is an interesting choice for websites; i use it, but there's some overhead involved 11:21:54 All programmers have prejudices, many have unproductive ones though 11:21:57 oh. 11:22:11 what 'overhead'? like DIY stuff? 11:22:22 meric seems to be on square 4k. 11:22:55 k stands for "not knowing what a syntax tree is" 11:23:05 meric: i'm using fastcgi and apache, for instance; which requires relatively low-level interaction with the http protocol, for instance 11:23:10 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/ has web application has its second link 11:23:19 i have to output the headers manually 11:23:22 as * 11:23:31 meric: yes, there are some nice scheme frameworks out there 11:23:36 ohhh, so I'd have to learn that too. 11:23:44 If you want to learn a programming language for the sole purpose of making websites, there are better choices 11:24:12 I considered ruby but it had too many symbols. 11:24:23 like... punctuation 11:24:27 :( 11:24:42 Sounds like you want cobol 11:24:50 meric: that said, though; working with html in scheme is unbeatable 11:25:01 yeah that's what I thought :) 11:25:05 there is a list-like representation of html/xml called shtml/sxml 11:25:16 so you can manipulate your documents like native scheme structures 11:25:20 it's amazing 11:25:29 Yeah, you can't do that in any other language 11:25:41 Jafet: you can do that in another language? 11:25:46 Of course not! 11:26:04 I'd like to have used Lua but its web abilities is only experimental 11:26:06 haskell has some interesting stream-based stuff, but it lacks the data/program duality that scheme takes advantage of 11:26:31 Well, I'm sure kluto knows what he's talking about. Bye 11:27:47 *goes look at haskell* 11:28:35 meric: heh; scheme might be a gentler intro to functional programming than haskell. 11:28:45 ... I think so too 11:28:54 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-34-35.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:04 seriously, though; sicp will change your life 11:29:16 give it a shot; there's plenty of people here to help you out along the way 11:29:36 I'm giving it a shot :) 11:30:27 I still don't fully understand functional programming, besides thinking it has first-class functions 11:31:17 If I write a function that uses tail-recursion to do a loop, is that.. functional programming? 11:34:15 bytecolor [n=user@166.134.231.192] has joined #scheme 11:38:29 masm [n=masm@bl7-204-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:43:36 klutometis: It will be pretty hard to take advantage of Scheme's alleged "data/program duality" for generation of web content. 11:44:06 And that's true even in CL, where that duality is explicit rather than alleged. 11:49:45 meric: functional programming stresses "referential transparency" vs. side effects (sorry for the jargon) 11:50:03 first-class functions, lazy evaluation, tail-call optimization, etc. are nice to have, though 11:50:35 I'm going to read the wiki article on "referential transparency". 11:51:28 eli: i can view the shtml representation of a web document as a series of nested calls, for instance; and populate procedures accordingly 11:51:45 in that sense, EVALing the doc results in a transformation of some kind 11:52:03 that doesn't seem too hard 11:52:14 meric: good idea; or start here, even: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming 11:52:55 klutometis: Coding XSLT feels rather like that sometimes 11:53:04 alaricsp: exactly! 11:53:07 I read that already, but I didn't get it 11:53:11 It helps if you can easily write a 'wildcard' that maps elements with no special processing to an identity transform, mind ;-) 11:53:26 (lambda x x), of course ;) 11:54:12 meric: the gist is, when the output of a given function is predictable given a certain input; reasoning about programs becomes much easier 11:54:35 once functions have side effects, all bets are off 11:54:56 Okay, I think I get it now. 11:54:57 I think you're talking about the wrong language here 11:56:20 klutometis: that view that you can hold relies on a mapping from shtml (whatever that is) to code, and such a mapping can be done with *any* decent language that has some kind of a tree type and an `eval' function. 11:56:42 Sshh, he's doing a bait-and-switch 11:56:50 Offer web programming, deliver continuation passing style 11:57:02 For example, you could trivially go from a JSON piece of data to the same kind of nested function call view. 11:57:41 "that has some kind of a tree type and an `eval' function." Sounds like a scheme to me :) 11:57:53 eli: true; but it's particularly painless in scheme. in my experience, using dom objects in js was less than elegant 11:59:31 That depends on what you consider as pain. One major problem in doing this in JS is a problem that you run into with R5RS schemes: a single namespace means that you risk clashes between bindings that should come from the xml data and ones that are a proper part of the language. 11:59:31 i tried enforcing a similar data/program duality doing XHR, and the scaffolding required was not insignificant 12:00:59 eli: that's very true; but that's also why SXSLT is so nice: it encapsulates the namespace within a lambda 12:01:13 minimizes pollution 12:04:52 And still, the same can be done in any such language. There's almost nothing significant in Scheme for this, beyond the fact that it uses a uniform syntax representation that resembles such trees. 12:05:21 (That is, if you're willing to go with viewing XML data as functions only, then you could do the same in all languages.) 12:05:53 so in php you'd go this->br() to spit out a br tag? 12:06:25 I think (br "hey line break") is much cleaner. 12:06:29 print "
"; #FIXME 12:07:10 meric: You probably mean (br). 12:07:20 umm, maybe. 12:07:49 meric: But the core of your argument here (at least AFAICT) is the use of a functional language over imperative constructs. 12:08:24 It's generally much easier to deal with a piece of data that represents a
rather than code that spits it out. 12:09:10 eli: sure; it's just a pain to rewrite the element->mapping-procedure scaffolding for each new language. 12:09:25 i took a stab at reimplementing SXSLT in python; it wasn't pretty (though it did work--slowly) 12:09:51 could brook some optimization; but the point is: i was fighting against python 12:10:09 eli: I think its easier to write html with lists than html 12:10:21 meric: Scheme, as well as other functional languages, makes it easy to "convert" the latter into the former by using thunks -- for example, (lambda () (printf "
")) can be used as such data which is built on an imperative `printf'. (And the same holds for a language that gives you function(){ printf "
"; }) 12:11:09 yes, but I cant write my html like (html (head (title "hey"))) in other languages 12:11:31 meric: The choice of lists or something else (trees, in general) is of course very important. If you restrict yourself to the php-ish mistake of treating everything as flat strings then you're going to find yourself lost sooner or later. 12:12:11 meric: And re writing your html -- sure you can; just think of something like html(head(title("head"))). 12:12:29 I like the first one better 12:12:45 ( I don't know enough to respond to the php-ish comment) 12:12:56 klutometis: That, I mostly agree with. Schemers are much more aware of the benefits of this kind of uniformity. 12:13:43 meric: They're exactly the same -- as long as `html' etc are functions. The syntax that you use in your code is nearly irrelevant. 12:15:11 eli: then why do you use scheme? 12:15:46 I use scheme (occasionally) because it is a nice language. 12:15:54 Because of a number of advantages that make it a good language. 12:16:31 IMO its syntax IS its advantage 12:16:39 over other languages like python, ruby and Lua 12:17:45 meric: But if you're not too experienced, then one thing to consider is that just learning scheme is going to open your eyes to certain ways of coding that make life easier. For example, imperative programmers will usually not go for the approach of using data. Another example is first class functions -- a feature that almost all modern languages have, yet most programmers use it very rarely, if ever. 12:18:38 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0545EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:19:04 It's syntax makes scheme easy for programmers to go for the approach of using data 12:19:23 The *concrete* syntax -- what you need to type into a file for a Scheme implementation to recognize -- is almost coincidental. Its importance is more on the side of establishing a certain culture than providing some real advantage. (Eg, see my last reply to klutometis.) 12:19:41 -!- Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-17-71.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:21:23 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:21:27 Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-17-71.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 12:22:15 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:22 as you say, its to establish a certain culture. The lack of which is why most programmers of other languages use first class functions very rarely. 12:23:11 It may be a "soft" advantage that doesn't add any real power but personally I don't think "power" is what defines languages. They're all turing-complete, after all 12:24:20 That's why people mean more meaningful things when they say "power". 12:24:29 Yes -- but that culture is, geenrally speaking, the culture of functional programming. Scheme has that an in addition it has the very uniform syntax that makes schemers do the code=data bit much more often than other people. (For example, JSON is taken as a kind of a revelation, whereas Schemers and Lispers are surprised at how much time it took to "discover" something that they've used for decades.) 12:24:33 http://paulgraham.com/power.html 12:25:30 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:26:22 meric: Yes, "what algorithms you can write in a language X" is mostly a trivial issue -- something that is much more important is how expressive your language is. You can have first-class functions in assembler too, but that will require you to do some substantial work. 12:26:58 ._. ok, its syntax is expressive 12:27:15 No, no -- not the syntax. 12:27:37 there aren't better ways to represent trees 12:27:40 are there? 12:27:44 In some very concrete way, continuations and macros are a huge benefit of Scheme, in that they expose a certain functionality that is impossible in most languages without some global transformation. 12:28:23 What do you mean about trees? Any decent language will give you some convenient tree type. 12:29:19 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-204-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:45 I don't use lua macros even though there's a "good" implementation (MetaLua) of it, precisely because its syntax is ugly. 12:30:12 try build a tree in java. 12:30:36 I have no idea what "ugly" means there. 12:31:03 scroll down: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/323346/what-can-lisp-do-that-lua-cant 12:31:10 As for trees in Java -- that's easy: just use lists. 12:31:28 yeah and you'd end up with a 200 line tree 12:32:16 the example of lua macros 12:32:24 is ugly 12:33:07 also lua code can't easily be referred as data except as strings 12:33:31 I don't know why you'd end up with more lines in Java than in Scheme -- consider how JS has a syntax that can be used in roughly the same way that Scheme does. 12:33:51 but scheme has its code in lists, which doesn't have to be referred as strings. 12:33:57 I know about meta lua -- what I don't know what you would mean by "ugly". 12:34:05 it just looks ugly. 12:34:21 hmm could be a personal preference there. 12:34:22 So does JS: ["foo", ["bar", "baz"]] is code. 12:34:32 (i was talking about Java, not javascript) 12:34:38 javascript is more lisp than java 12:35:18 I know; the point is that the only difference is a superficial way to read the data in. 12:35:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@26-254-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:35:56 I don't think referring to code as strings is good idea. 12:36:36 Re lua -- I'm not saying that it's not ugly, I just don't say anything about it that is subjective. If you want to criticize the lua meta programming facilities, you'll need to be much more concrete than "ugly". 12:36:42 ejs [n=eugen@26-254-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 12:36:58 Strings as expressed with "..." *are* code. 12:38:18 Continuing with lua, you can refer to the way it handles (or, more likely, doesn't handle) lexical scope (= hygiene); you could refer to some module system and how meta lua macros interact with it, or you can refer to the fact that each node in the syntax tree needs to have an explicit constructor (all those Var and Apply things). 12:38:18 Hmm, so we've arrived at the conclusion... my liking of scheme syntax is a subjective preference. 12:38:53 I haven't learned metalua because I didn't like the look of it. 12:39:16 Let me demonstrate a quick subtle point: 12:39:20 okay 12:39:30 Scheme has quoted syntax written without explicit constructors. 12:39:45 For example, when you write a macro, you specify the result as just a bunch of forms. 12:39:55 ...in the same syntax as Scheme. 12:40:04 yes 12:40:12 but in metalua its a different syntax 12:40:23 (I know, I'm getting there.) 12:40:25 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:40:44 To make it really quick, assume the obvious correlation between sexprs as data and as Scheme code. 12:40:56 The code to add 1 to some `x' is (+ 1 x) 12:41:01 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:41:05 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 12:41:14 The code to construct that code would be '(+ 1 x) 12:41:25 The code to construct *that* code would be ''(+ 1 x) 12:41:49 If you go on this way, it is always clear at what level you're working, and what is ultimately quoted throughout these levels. 12:42:13 ok 12:42:13 Now assume that you're dealing with some Scheme dialect where you can only quote symbols -- that changes the whole thing. 12:42:28 The code to generate (+ 1 x) would be (list '+ '1 'x) 12:42:38 (I'm quoting the 1 for uniformity's sake.) 12:43:03 The code to generate *that* would be (list 'list (list 'quote '+) (list 'quote '1) (list 'quote 'x)) 12:43:50 The code to generate that would be (list (list 'quote 'list) (list 'list (list 'quote 'list) ...)) 12:44:05 yeah 12:44:11 This is no longer understandable, because you need an explicit constructor for all lists. 12:44:27 go on 12:44:36 Meta lua (at least in the example shown on that web page, which is where I first saw it) makes this even worse -- 12:44:53 foo(bar) is represented in Scheme sexprs as '(foo bar) 12:44:54 thats what i was thinking when I looked at it 12:45:00 that is (list 'foo 'bar) 12:45:27 But in meta lua, it's represented as some Apply("foo", Var("bar")) 12:45:56 So now in addition to having all of those intermediate constructors that need quoting, you get another pile of headache in the form of using different constructors. 12:46:08 yeah.... 12:46:21 That makes meta programming much harder -- a fact that (my guess) they're trying to compensate over using pattern matching. 12:46:45 But the result is still very "clunky" compared to what you do in Scheme (or in Lisp, for that matter). 12:47:26 I suspect that this is the obvious aspect that made you say that it "looks ugly" -- but without describing exactly what it is that makes things harder to express you won't get far. 12:47:37 I once made a shell script that made shell scripts and piped them to sh 12:47:44 I rely on my subconcious alot. 12:48:18 That's not only when you're talking to others -- it's also applicable when you're talking to yourself (or your subconscious) and ask it "why am I using this lanugage anyway". 12:48:19 so it wasn't going to be easy for me to write sentences about why it looks ugly... 12:49:12 thanks for the lesson 12:49:53 I'm looking at scheme because "it looks good". meaning, you can use macroes in the same language as scheme. 12:50:22 No problems, and sorry about making it a lesson -- it wasn't intended... 12:50:32 haha that's okay :) 12:51:49 If it wasn't clear by me just being in this channel, (or working almost exclusively on Scheme for almost two decades), Scheme is a good choice -- but your chances of sticking with it are going to be much better if you know exactly what makes it good. 12:53:06 don't worry I subconciously understood you. :) 12:53:54 You should let your subconscious use IRC from time to time... It will probably enjoy it. 12:54:17 very funny. 12:57:47 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 13:00:09 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:01:45 meric_ [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 13:03:36 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:08:55 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 13:18:07 hey guys, i am in trouble with some application. This is making me crazy.. 13:18:38 need to find the sublists of a given list but can't implement the way that i ve found 13:18:42 -!- meric [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:43 -!- meric_ is now known as meric 13:20:09 i thought it would do the job to use a mask but no way 13:25:50 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:26:31 -!- meric [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 13:27:18 meric [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 13:31:51 u there? 13:35:38 application == homework? 13:38:22 elderK [n=Trev_and@203-211-114-36.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 13:38:41 Hey people! 13:40:25 ejs1 [n=eugen@94-248-125-217.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 13:50:24 hey, not really 13:51:31 anyway, i have found my way. 13:51:43 thanks for your interest ;) 13:52:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:52:25 -!- domat [n=salim@139.179.197.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:54:02 -!- ejs [n=eugen@26-254-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:39 *mejja* bills eli 14:00:00 arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:02 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0545EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:13:50 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.97.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:38 -!- meric [n=Eric@124-171-57-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:34 samth [n=samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:34:35 where is trace in chicken scheme? I installed the requirements per ,doc trace => miscacros advice 14:35:36 AFAIK trace is an egg 14:35:43 yes, I spelled `miscmacros' correctly when I actually installed it ;) 14:35:53 hrm 14:36:17 The idea is that you can just install the egg, that will take care of the dependencies for you, so you don't have to hunt them down manually :) 14:36:21 I chicken-installed both of those, then require-extension'd them 14:36:41 sjamaan: yes, that's been working great 14:37:00 So why require-extension them? 14:37:11 All you want is the trace functionality 14:37:11 I still get Error: unbound variable: trace 14:37:17 yes 14:37:24 You need to (require-extension trace), then 14:37:30 hrm 14:37:34 It makes no sense to load the dependencies into your program 14:38:24 connot import from undefined module trace 14:38:35 yes, because you haven't installed that egg yet! 14:38:37 sjamaan: I need to read the module docs, that's for sure 14:38:47 No, this has nothing to do with modules etc 14:38:57 You didn't install the "trace" egg yet, so you can't load its code 14:39:51 ah there we go, thanks sjamaan ;) 14:40:21 What you just tried to do was like doing "yum install gtk" and then run "firefox" on the CLI and wonder why firefox is not available 14:40:33 ah 14:40:50 so I just installed the dependencies, I seeeeee 14:40:52 yes 14:41:41 Some habits die hard, bytecolor :) 14:41:52 Oy, I know that /for sure/ 14:41:52 :) 14:41:54 hi elderK :) 14:41:56 Heya sjamaan! 14:42:03 hey elderK 14:42:12 sjamaan: Doctor tomorrow, right? 14:42:13 :P 14:42:22 Maybe not 14:42:27 Man, I've been reading SICP - it really is a classic once you put asside hte fact that it's kind of a large book. 14:42:27 I'm feeling much better today 14:42:28 lol 14:42:31 :D 14:42:37 That's great, sjamaan! 14:42:51 Indeed 14:43:16 :) Up to the chapter 5, the part where you start to implement a little compiler. 14:43:32 It's quite cool - I like how they pretty much define all the stuff they feel like defining, to make it easier to read the source. 14:43:51 :) Going to try and absorb that trait. 14:44:13 Also, I found an interesting semi-pearl, I think, in chapter 4 - Metacircular Evaluator. 14:44:19 er, Metalinguistic Abstraction. 14:44:27 uberlazy [i=1000@93-136-11-108.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 14:44:37 ^_^ Been reading up like a crazy thang about ER Macros and whatnot. 14:44:50 And hey, sjamaan, did you ever find out what was causing packrat to be so slow? 14:45:24 No, the profiler wasn't useful 14:45:36 I did fix one or two silly things that made it a lot faster 14:45:59 :D Sweet. Just tweaking the algorithms or? 14:46:21 No, get rid of quasiquote and use cons or append! instead 14:46:38 hm, why is qq so much slower? 14:47:21 Because `(,x ,@y) expands to (cons x (append y '()), and that pulls a complete copy of y 14:47:38 Oh, right, I got you now. 14:47:49 Thanks to zbigniew for pointing that out ;) 14:48:08 o_O th elanguage they use to explain ,@ is a little misleading, imo. 14:48:22 "Splice" to me, conjures thoughts of someone slamming two lists together - destructively. 14:48:39 "Join" or "Merge" or something, comes to my mind as more non-destructive sounding than splice. 14:48:41 *elderK* shrugs 14:49:01 ah well 14:49:08 :P Can't win em all. 14:49:08 :) 14:49:27 Man, the puppies here are freaking insa,e 14:49:38 puppies? 14:49:53 :P This really cute little one, a little girl and a year old one, a boy. He keeps trying to play with her :P Doesn't seem to understand that shes tiny and baby. 14:50:05 heh 14:50:09 Yeah, I'm at my Mother's for a couple days, to help her with some technical stuff and generally, becuase she hasn't seen me in years. 14:50:16 :P She has puppies :P 14:50:19 and cats... 14:50:20 and lambs.... 14:50:32 Literally in the middle of nowhere - fields in every direction. 14:50:49 So far out in nowhere, that the Internet link is through some radiothing. 14:50:56 and my cellphone has zero reception :P 14:51:06 heh 14:51:20 You can be happy there's inet at all then 14:51:43 It's cool though, for once, I got her gifts - TFT LCD, Keyboard, her first optical mouse, and a farmer's hat. (My relationship with my Mom has always bee pretty strained, you see, I usually avoid her like the plague) 14:51:50 and aye. 14:52:29 :P The computer here, her partner uses it. They are pretty outgoing... busy people, and I tend to try and help em - very little time other than in the night to do much on here. But, that's pretty cool - since it gives me time to read :) 14:52:54 And, I couldn't have not come donw, since, she wants me to setup some... business...management... spreadsheet thing. And, it'd cost a fortune if she paid someone... 14:53:19 IT stuff is ridiculously expensive 14:53:26 Better do it yourself, if you can :) 14:53:28 :P feel too guilty. Besides, having a puppy in my pocket is just, fun. :P The litlte one follows me around, all excited and lil' tail wiggling around crazy. 14:53:30 I can :) 14:53:46 PRoblem is, she's the kind of person (generation wise), that hates electronics... mostly, and hates manuals :P 14:54:09 So - I'm going to see what their uplink is and the like, see if I can setup a way that I can do this stuff remotely. 14:54:24 :P 4 hours away from "home". 14:55:34 I wonder if it's a motherly thing, for them to embarass the crap out of you, like, when you shop. 14:55:40 :P Helped her with the groceries... man..... 14:56:55 btw, man, have you read/worked through SICP Chapter 4? I have a couple questions on some of hte techniques they teach there. Just, curious as to the trick I learned. 14:57:03 A clever way to create a call chain. :) 14:57:42 Made me think once more about Forth's threaded code. 15:01:51 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:52 arquebus [n=shintaro@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #scheme 15:03:29 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:03:32 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:04:54 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:13:03 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 15:15:23 -!- Michael_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:17:49 Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:24:11 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 15:34:53 sarimurat [n=salim@139.179.197.15] has joined #scheme 15:37:24 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-251.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:40:22 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-102-68.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 15:45:18 -!- arquebus [n=shintaro@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:21 I'm off guys :) 15:48:27 Keep cool. 15:48:33 -!- elderK [n=Trev_and@203-211-114-36.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Sleep!"] 15:53:42 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@94-248-125-217.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:54:44 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:55:18 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-29-93.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:39 -!- samth [n=samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:09 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 16:17:38 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 16:19:57 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-119-238-203-37.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:14 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:48 elderK [n=Trev_and@203-211-114-36.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 16:40:54 Bah, sleep. 16:41:00 Can't sleep, thinking of CPS. 16:41:11 Can't sleep, clowns'll get me... 16:41:12 :P 16:42:38 -!- uberlazy [i=1000@93-136-11-108.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:45:19 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 16:51:01 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:06 Mohamdu [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 16:51:27 salimsari [n=salim@139.179.197.15] has joined #scheme 16:52:53 -!- sarimurat [n=salim@139.179.197.15] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:21 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 16:58:20 gosh, sure is quiet tonight. 16:58:22 Sunday, I guess. 17:01:57 -!- salimsari is now known as sarimurat 17:06:32 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:07:05 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 17:16:26 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:18 masm [n=masm@bl7-204-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 17:17:29 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-204-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:22 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 17:25:43 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 17:28:11 After reading about CPS, Continuations and studying Scheme and Lisp for awhile, 17:28:18 Stackless Python really doesn't seem all that impressive. 17:28:20 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 17:28:22 Especially not when you read this: 17:28:23 http://www.stackless.com/spcpaper.htm#_Toc470444063 17:29:57 Python and Matlab is what we are up against 17:30:21 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:33 Guido thinks TCO is pointless so stackless will never become the standard python :) 17:33:56 I think he's against recursion in general 17:47:56 I just played the Linux x86_64 version of Quantz. This is the first time I've actually played Quantz. It's awesome. :-) 17:53:05 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #scheme 18:03:24 yome's gambit game? 18:04:26 *mejja* ... 18:04:40 Yes, that's it. 18:04:41 nobody home? :p 18:25:34 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:25:57 Nope, nobody here but us clever witticisms. 18:28:15 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 18:29:04 Riastradh: signed zeros; a curse or a blessing? 18:29:10 Bletch. 18:29:30 An unfortunate artefact of certain representations. 18:30:37 *poof* 18:32:14 *mejja* is not amused 18:47:05 Gee... I guess Matt Birkholz is interested in the SVM. 18:47:09 copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.163.1.72] has joined #scheme 18:48:26 He should finish his gtk stuff first imho... because mejja needs it! 18:54:32 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 18:55:18 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:56:30 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 18:58:00 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 19:10:34 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:36 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:19 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 19:18:20 -!- JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-092-074-119-165.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 19:22:48 jengle [n=jengle@64-252-48-197.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 19:26:46 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:44 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 19:29:35 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 19:31:24 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64-252-48-197.adsl.snet.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:46:48 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 19:47:02 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 19:49:12 unquery 19:56:48 schmir [n=schmir@p54A90818.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:57:26 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:58:11 foof [n=user@FL1-119-238-203-37.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 19:59:59 -!- saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-24-15-36-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:10:19 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-117-113.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:19:51 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 20:24:32 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A90818.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:25:23 mmc1 [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:25:29 hey guys! 20:26:10 and aye... stackless python. Was kind of hoping it'd be like, cool an dactually..... stackless. 20:26:17 but all it's doing is creating an explicit stack... 20:26:20 pish. 20:30:03 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 20:37:42 -!- Mohamdu [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:29 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-119-238-203-37.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:47:44 ejs [n=eugen@109-167-63-219.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 20:51:33 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:54:27 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:59:33 copumpkin_ [n=copumpki@94.162.17.111] has joined #scheme 21:03:01 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 21:04:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:11 MichaelRaskin 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