00:02:08 -!- cephalopod [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-zxfpptwqadskjojn] has quit ["Page closed"] 00:03:00 hiacre1 [n=archie@88-97-27-187.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:04:14 brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:06:52 -!- abbe [n=abbe@2001:470:f803:8000:0:0:0:1] has quit [] 00:10:42 Narrenschiff_ [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 00:11:28 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:11:57 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:12:20 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:12:21 -!- Narrenschiff_ is now known as Narrenschiff 00:20:15 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:20:46 -!- hiacre1 [n=archie@88-97-27-187.dsl.zen.co.uk] has left #scheme 00:40:49 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:22 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:15 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 01:01:48 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:05:53 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.163.31.75] has quit [] 01:06:31 copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.163.31.75] has joined #scheme 01:17:56 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:06 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-232.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:22:21 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-232.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:31:34 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:31:49 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:41:31 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:41:57 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:55:09 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:14 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 02:02:35 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 02:07:33 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:07:59 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #scheme 02:17:01 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 02:17:24 uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #scheme 02:17:26 -!- uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has left #scheme 02:23:23 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 02:26:36 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:27:18 -!- copumpkin is now known as pumpkin 02:28:12 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 02:50:25 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:53:18 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:54:42 -!- sarimurat [n=salim@139.179.197.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:14:07 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:22:00 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.3] has joined #scheme 03:22:42 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:28:30 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 03:29:29 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-65.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 03:29:31 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 03:30:37 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:31:26 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:31:36 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [Client Quit] 03:43:26 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.3] has left #scheme 03:47:09 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-232.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:30 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 03:57:36 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 04:03:21 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 04:06:56 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:09:08 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 04:10:16 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:10:32 tjafk [n=timj@e176207084.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:10:34 -!- timj [n=timj@e176199200.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:59 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-65.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 04:32:58 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-65.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:33:04 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.3] has joined #scheme 04:39:31 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:45 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Changing server"] 04:48:09 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:54:13 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:56:42 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-31-122-80.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:25 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-65.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:12:30 akitada [n=user@unaffiliated/akitada] has joined #scheme 05:14:15 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 05:16:01 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:29 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:51:06 -!- kencausey [n=ken@67.15.6.88] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 05:52:24 kencausey [n=ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #scheme 06:07:38 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:10:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 06:13:31 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:15:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:15:44 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 06:19:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:45:45 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 06:46:09 Moin moin! 07:32:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:51:13 Mohamdu [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:54:12 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:08:45 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:11:19 visof [n=visof@41.238.234.32] has joined #scheme 08:23:35 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.3] has left #scheme 08:24:42 Hmm. If you merged lambda with define-syntax, what greek letter would you call it? 08:24:57 slambda! 08:25:46 Which greek era is that from again 08:27:57 Norrisean. 08:31:05 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:37:24 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-246-15.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 08:58:38 JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-092-074-125-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 08:59:46 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.234.32] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:00:05 visof [n=visof@41.238.234.32] has joined #scheme 09:00:59 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has joined #scheme 09:27:08 -!- akitada [n=user@unaffiliated/akitada] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:28:04 sarimurat [n=salim@139.179.197.12] has joined #scheme 09:30:38 visof_ [n=visof@41.238.235.82] has joined #scheme 09:30:39 hey, is there a way to construct a list with two atoms that is not a dotted pair? 09:34:27 sarimurat: (list a b) ? 09:34:44 -!- visof_ [n=visof@41.238.235.82] has quit [Client Quit] 09:34:46 all lists are pairs, if that's what you're asking. 09:35:39 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 09:37:31 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:02 what u mean by; all lists are pairs? 09:39:05 if you need to combine two things in a way that pair? is not true, define-record or define-struct should do the trick... or just use vectors? Any further and you'll need to be more specific. 09:40:03 Aha, thanks for suggestions. This will be enough for me now. 09:40:04 sarimurat: (define (always-true a) (if (list? a) (pair? a) #t)) 09:40:48 a list is a special kind of pair: it is a pair between one thing, and another list. 09:43:54 nice approach. I will keep this in mind. Thank you. 09:45:49 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.234.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:23 akitada [n=user@unaffiliated/akitada] has joined #scheme 09:54:13 hi schemer! 09:54:17 (schemers) 09:54:29 did anyone try ikarus scheme here? 09:57:35 arewenothorses [n=Adium@unaffiliated/arewenothorses] has joined #scheme 10:03:33 I can't find any freenode channel for ikarus 10:04:51 -!- arewenothorses1 [n=Adium@125-202-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:23 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 10:13:43 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:15 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:17 -!- saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-24-15-36-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:54:51 -!- tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has left #scheme 10:56:55 tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 11:11:08 saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-24-15-36-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:27:31 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:28:14 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 11:33:46 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:53 so... nobody knows anything about ikarus? 11:35:50 alvatar: wait a while. I think someone here has used it, but they might not log in for a bit 11:36:30 Adamant: thanks :) 11:37:23 yeah, I think the person that tried it is in .us, which is mostly sleeping or just waking up... may take a while 11:38:12 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:38:37 hehehe :) I'm very excited about ikarus... 11:38:45 that's why I wanted to ask 11:38:53 the new Schemes are interesting for sure 11:39:07 unfortunately there seems to be no channel dedicated, because I have one specific question 11:39:18 I use Ikarus for debugging IrRegex. 11:39:24 they will be especially interesting if R7RS goes down smoothly and everyone is happy 11:39:28 oh nice! 11:40:01 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 11:40:10 I want to use Ikarus for creating a plugin for a D program (D program has C linkage, so think of it as C) 11:40:12 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 11:41:38 OK, I don't know anything about embedding Ikarus. 11:41:53 it seems to be possible, though 11:42:04 but this is not a Scheme->C compiler 11:42:18 so wouldn't be as straightforward as it is with Gambit or Chicken 11:42:29 does Ikarus have a FFI? 11:43:52 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 11:44:11 yes 11:46:19 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 11:47:01 yes it has, but I want to know how possible is to compile a shared library with ikarus, and make it read a C array 11:47:13 it seems that the last thing is possible 11:47:30 (it has a kind of pointer arithmetic!) 11:47:37 The FFI doesn't seem to be documented anywhere, but you can see examples in test-ffi.ss 11:47:57 ah, oh 11:48:15 :) thanks I'll read that right away 11:50:18 But Ikarus is likely one of the more difficult Schemes to embed in C. 11:50:47 :( 11:50:58 You can always ask on the list. 11:51:03 yep 11:51:38 but I don't really need to embed the interpreter/compiler in my app, just executable code with an entry point an the ability to understand C structs 11:52:13 I'm not going to expose a lot of functionality to ikarus 11:52:14 still not easy 11:52:59 Ikarus can't generate object files. 11:53:26 aaargh 11:53:39 that's might be a showstopper 11:56:54 foof: where did you find test-ffi.s? I can't see it in release 3 11:57:08 alvatar: It's in the latest dev. 11:57:17 so, with bazaar? 11:57:21 yes 11:57:24 okay :) 11:57:45 have to emerge it then :S 11:57:49 Cross your fingers and hope the version of bazaar you have installed (or are about to install) is compatible with the version they have on the server. 11:58:01 woooow 11:58:04 funny 11:58:22 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:58:32 I wonder why bazaar is losing ground against git and hg 11:59:01 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 11:59:06 everything is 12:01:32 -!- sarimurat [n=salim@139.179.197.12] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:13:02 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Success] 12:15:03 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 12:17:35 abbe [n=abbe@xn--chteau-d-if-x7a.abbe.members.pirateparty.in] has joined #scheme 12:18:23 do you know any other r6rs with good performance and ffi/C integration? 12:20:06 I don't think any R6RS implementations are concerned with good C integration. 12:20:27 You have a wider selection sticking with R5RS. 12:21:11 ok 12:21:35 and besides Chicken, Gambit, any other good alternatives? 12:21:43 speed is important for me... 12:22:45 For speed + C those are the usual suspects. 12:23:51 :) 12:24:01 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 12:24:36 I was thinking Stalin... but that's rather limited, and too slow compiling scheme code 12:26:02 ecomba [n=ecomba@host86-178-148-4.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:33:33 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:33:51 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 12:39:01 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057A65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:41:11 foof: bignums seem fine now, thanks :) 12:41:54 cool :) 12:42:52 foof: it seems it might be possible to call ikarus from C 12:43:23 the same way I've been doing it before, dlopen, dlsym 12:43:49 I still have to understand how to create an object file with ikarus, then it would be "done" :) 12:44:36 alvatar: If you can create an object file, there's no need for dlopen. Just make it a normal shared library and link against it - much easier. 12:45:16 oh, yes 12:45:29 you are right :) 12:45:55 is that I'm usually creating .o files and then linking shared libraries with them 12:47:58 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 12:49:19 masm [n=masm@bl7-94-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:50:05 sarimurat [n=salim@139.179.197.12] has joined #scheme 12:51:32 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:52:10 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 12:52:31 -!- sarimurat is now known as domates 12:52:44 -!- domates is now known as domat 13:00:36 hiacre [n=hiacre@88-97-27-187.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 13:01:56 -!- hiacre [n=hiacre@88-97-27-187.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:10:19 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-147.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:19:50 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:22:44 -!- Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-17-71.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:23:56 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:24:56 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 13:25:06 Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-17-71.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 13:25:08 -!- abbe [n=abbe@xn--chteau-d-if-x7a.abbe.members.pirateparty.in] has quit [] 13:25:54 ahmetalpb [n=chatzill@139.179.198.250] has joined #scheme 13:25:58 hi 13:26:02 is this room for scheme 13:26:04 ? 13:26:13 oh of course )))) parantheses. 13:32:02 HG` [n=HG@xdslao204.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 13:32:44 anyone there? 13:32:50 or everybody is sleeping? 13:33:30 minion: advice for ahmetalpb 13:33:30 ahmetalpb: #11930: Would you like to see my rate card? 13:33:32 -!- domat [n=salim@139.179.197.12] has quit [Operation timed out] 13:34:17 minion: what is tht? 13:34:17 what would a bot like me know about tht ? 13:34:33 mejja: what is that ? :) 13:41:42 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Success] 13:42:23 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 13:58:19 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has quit ["so long.."] 13:59:07 morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 13:59:12 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:25 what is HtDC short for? 13:59:46 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:00:00 How to Date Catholics 14:00:39 catholic girls are good 14:01:01 It didn't say girls 14:07:20 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-12-196.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 14:16:51 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:17:16 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:25:22 I love catholic girlz 14:25:29 They're pretty, usually. 14:25:53 not sure most people in this room cares about your sexual fantasies 14:32:27 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:38:45 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:41:19 LOL 14:42:20 morphir: How to design programs 14:43:19 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-147.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:44:11 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 14:46:13 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:46:35 george: I think that is HtDP is short for. I was asking for HtDC 14:48:07 notice the *C* 14:50:14 http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/4.1/html/teachpack/htdc.html 14:51:09 See also http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/HTDC 14:52:08 How to Draw in Canvases? 14:52:45 How to deal crack 14:54:08 how to destroy crouds 14:54:23 how to detect cancer 14:54:41 I don't think that a PLT Teachpack would be useful for these. 14:54:46 vatsal [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has joined #scheme 14:56:38 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:56 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 14:59:30 -!- ahmetalpb [n=chatzill@139.179.198.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:54 bytecolor [n=user@32.174.2.5] has joined #scheme 15:03:13 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Success] 15:03:40 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:05:17 how to I catch (cdr 'x) ? I've been reading srfi-34 with no success. I'm using chicken 4.3 which always reports `Error: foo message'. (error) produces this message and the doc says error invokes the current exception-handler. 15:06:07 bytecolor: I'm not sure what kind of exception this is, but you should probably check the value of x before taking its cdr 15:06:42 Also, Chicken implements srfi-12, not srfi-34 15:06:47 hi sjamaan yes, it was just an example. I'm just trying to figure out how to catch *any* exception 15:07:02 Check srfi-12 :) 15:08:04 sjamaan: nod, but I read srfi-12 was withdrawn, not sure exactly what that means, but it doesn't sound good ;) 15:08:38 It just means that its authors didn't reach a point where they considered the srfi worthy as a standard 15:09:08 It could mean they weren't able to solve problems, or just that the community couldn't reach consensus about where to go with the srfi 15:09:35 It doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad API for any specific Scheme to implement 15:09:38 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslao204.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:10:27 For example, the FFI SRFI was withdrawn because no API could be designed that would fit every C-based Scheme's implementation method 15:10:44 That doesn't mean the FFI is a bad one, it's just not generic enough for all Schemes 15:11:00 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 15:11:03 (I'm not 100% sure why srfi-12 particularly was withdrawn) 15:12:13 sjamaan: I noticed srfi-34 was written by the same authors as srfi-12. Thanks for the insight 15:12:25 bytecolor: Also, http://chicken.wiki.br/man/4/Unit library#condition-case 15:12:48 I think Felix chose SRFI-12 because it was less over-engineered than srfi-34 ;) 15:13:22 ah 15:13:47 A little below that condition-case, you see an overview of conditions the system will throw 15:14:03 My guess is that (cdr 'x) throws a condition of type (exn type) 15:14:03 -!- morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:14:06 morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 15:14:23 You can check this by causing the error in the interpreter and then typing ,exn 15:14:35 That'll show you all the exception's properties 15:15:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:15:14 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-144-122.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:15:39 ohh, that's lovely ;) 15:17:08 I've been using (error) all over the place but now I need to start catching some of those errors ;) 15:18:02 oh, that's bad 15:18:18 You shouldn't just use error in a general-purpose library 15:18:32 It's fine for quick scripts and such 15:18:55 And if you want to write portable code 15:19:34 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has joined #scheme 15:19:47 well I'm using literal regexps all over too #/foo/ which I don't think are portable? 15:20:21 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:20:37 bytecolor: The withdrawn SRFIs tend to be the best. 15:20:41 literal re's are just too fsckin cool to leave out though ;) 15:20:48 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:20:58 Those aren't portable, no ;) 15:21:15 I think SREs are much cooler, though ;) 15:21:35 foof: oh? 15:21:41 sjamaan: nod, I got into them a bit using guile 15:21:52 You can use them with Chicken 4, too 15:21:58 I prefer perl-like syntax 15:22:02 o_O 15:22:06 Well, at least Olin's withdrawn SRFIs are much better than the ones he finalized :) 15:22:07 Blasphemy! 15:22:11 hehe 15:22:27 Better than srfi-1?! 15:22:38 sjamaan: I'm just used to it 15:23:05 sjamaan: SRFI-1 is good, but SRFI-33 is better. 15:23:15 And SRFI-13/14 are crap. 15:23:21 elderK [n=Trev_and@203-211-116-110.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 15:23:28 *bytecolor* takes notes 15:23:35 What's wrong with 13 and 14? 15:23:54 *elderK* toddle sinto the room, yawns, smiles and waves to all 15:24:02 hi elderK 15:24:06 *elderK* commences his search for coffee.... and the possibility of more! 15:24:12 :D Hey Sja! 15:24:16 Feeling any better, man? 15:24:39 Not much 15:24:54 Not Unicode-aware, assumes, O(1) string-ref, string-search is just broken, lots of minor issues. 15:24:55 Sorry to hear that, dude. 15:24:57 I think I'll go see the doctor again on monday 15:25:06 Aye, that sounds smart. 15:25:14 Hope you don't have that H1N1. 15:25:20 They're scaremongering us with that down here. 15:25:24 H1N1? 15:25:37 Yeah, swine flu? 15:25:42 oh 15:26:14 hello elderK, sjamaan I might get into SRE's more though as the parser I'm writing uses syntax like: (% #/\d+/ #\,) which parses an infix list => 1, 2, 3 15:26:56 (+ (seq decimal #\,)), I think 15:26:56 -!- morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:00 morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 15:27:17 bytecolor: Writing a pattern matcher? 15:27:29 Also, check the csv egg 15:27:39 ^_^ I've been reading through SICP, the set about the metacircular evaluator. 15:27:46 elderK: rd parser 15:27:55 Been kidnapped down south, even closer to the Antartic... 15:27:57 rd? 15:28:08 recursive decent 15:28:28 Ah :) 15:28:46 I hope to learn more about the terms sometime. I've written a few parsers for things - I'm not sure what the technique would be called, though. 15:29:00 That being said, I have a vendetta against recursive processes. 15:29:37 elderK: but, but, but you are using scheme 15:30:02 You're clearly insane 15:30:06 Ayee but there's a difference in seeming recursive in syntax, and the process that it generates. 15:30:06 I started reading little schemer, very cool book 15:30:19 :P Finally sjamaan! You click! 15:30:19 :P 15:30:22 *elderK* clinks his coffee mug 15:30:23 :) 15:30:25 *elderK* salutes 15:30:28 :) 15:30:56 Seriously though, I have no problem using tail recursion - SICP made me understand the "processes" view far more, in terms of code. 15:31:01 Put a spin I can't believe I didn't see before. 15:31:18 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:31 So, I'm cool with writing "seeming recursive" code, when in actuality, the process generated is iterative. 15:31:40 Problem is in C, TCO isn't exactly there... 15:31:52 At least, not except for basic cases. 15:32:21 So, everything I've written in the C world is... iterative. It made implementing AVL trees fun. 15:32:22 :) 15:32:39 But I also learned a few tricks to improve the speed of things like insertion, removal and such :) mostly removal. 15:32:45 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has quit ["so long.."] 15:33:05 ^_^ which is now on Wikipedia, so, it seems I rediscovered the optimization... or someone else did, because I didn't edit the page to reflect it. 15:33:16 elderK: I'm actually moving the other direction. Every time I use do, I try to think of how to do it recursively 15:33:42 Trust me, bytecolor, all the power to you, man. 15:33:48 I'm really... really skewed when it comes to this. 15:34:01 I hate DO 15:34:04 It's unreadable 15:34:07 I should have more sense here, really but... it's like a nervous tick. 15:34:07 :P 15:34:10 *sjamaan* prefers named let 15:34:16 I prefer named let too, sjamaan :) 15:34:22 but named let is iterative process :) 15:34:31 Not necessarily 15:34:45 Well, aye you got me there. 15:34:52 :D Can I redeem myself? :D 15:34:54 with a coffee? :) 15:34:58 sure 15:35:02 *elderK* offers Sjamaan a mochachino 15:35:03 ^_^ 15:35:59 Whether named let results in a recursive process or not, really depends on what you are doing inside of a named let. 15:36:00 Right? 15:36:10 yes 15:36:21 It'd be like saying "this is iterative" and like, using a recursive string matcher or something... inside of an iterative loop. It's still recursive. 15:36:23 Just like any other procedure that calls itself, really 15:36:26 Aye. 15:36:43 My weirdness around recursion is simple: classes... and intellectual interest. 15:36:45 If tha tmakes any sense. 15:36:56 If you call the named let in tail position, it's an iterative process 15:37:02 Otherwise it's just recursive 15:37:04 Yup 15:37:11 (cons (named-let-label ......)) 15:37:14 still recursive process. 15:37:18 check 15:37:20 since you're accumulating frames, right. 15:37:21 ? 15:37:24 Just like the callstack in C. 15:37:41 hrm, so... can I use matchables with explicit renaming macros? seems like I read somewhere that I cannot 15:37:46 elderK: are you using emacs? 15:37:49 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:38:05 Well, in Chicken it doesn't quite have the same disadvantage. There it just takes up more memory, but there's no stack depth limit like in C 15:38:16 bytecolor: You can use matchable w/ anything. 15:38:17 (unless you use up all available memory that is :P) 15:38:55 foof: ok, thanks. I was thinking that would be a good combination 15:39:10 no, bytecolor. 15:39:18 In fact, I'm down south, on an old machine... without anything. 15:39:26 since I have zero internet access from my laptop... 15:39:32 but normally I use Vi (I know, heretic) 15:40:05 Burn the witch! 15:40:12 *sjamaan* glances around nervously 15:40:14 elderK: ok but look into your editor and see if it has some way to limit the number of times you can press enter in a second. just a suggestion ;) 15:40:45 huh? 15:41:14 :P Editor may not but... there may be a hardware or OS limit to that :P 15:41:16 depending. 15:41:33 *elderK* ponders 15:41:42 elderK: how many wmp? like 80 or so? 15:41:57 wpm, more. 15:42:12 words per minute, typing 15:42:16 The limits I'm talking about are... me just being pedantic. :) 15:42:29 In practice, I doubt the OS would impose any real limits - since handlers and such are pretty fast... 15:43:07 I've never really done a "true" test, bytecolor. 15:43:19 I had to do some testing awhile back when I was job hunting, the agency "tested my CS skills" 15:43:23 (farking excel, word... please) 15:43:38 I was fast enough that their stupid crappy half-baked testing program had trouble with me. 15:43:39 :) 15:43:43 heh 15:43:49 So you were hired? ;) 15:43:51 ahaha 15:44:05 :( Naw, I'm waiting. 15:44:17 The city ion which I live isn't exactly giant with IT. 15:44:22 It's more sports, beer... and crap. 15:44:34 Not that I care entirely, my interests are now, once more, study. 15:44:40 "Oh my god, he'll break our PHP payroll next" 15:44:41 Which kind of explains why I'm up now :) 15:44:44 HAHAHAAHA 15:44:45 :) 15:44:47 Hey Jafet! 15:45:00 (I once worked a little while at a place with a PHP payroll.) 15:45:08 I don't know, tbh. I was sleep deprived and felt that I did pretty bad for me... 15:45:19 I dont go back to school 'till the 16th 15:45:20 What is a "PHP payroll"? 15:45:22 but on their little testing thingies, I got high 90%s ,a few 100%s. 15:45:31 :P PHP system doing payrolls? 15:45:42 :P that or I'd do the work too fast for em. 15:46:39 bytecolor: seriously though, why would enter-per-X matter, at least wrt to recursion? 15:48:10 Least, I'm curious :) Sjamaan seemed to be, too. 15:48:44 elderK: I was just commenting on the volume of text you can produce in here ;) 15:49:00 :) btw, the reason I am... itchy when it comes to recursion, is simply because I spent a massive amount of time (last time I studied, and some time in work), working with embedded chips with... crap all RAM. 15:49:04 HAHAAHAHA 15:49:06 Sorry... 15:49:06 LOL 15:49:10 Nice one, bytecolor ;) 15:49:35 It's easier to produce more text than less in any language. 15:49:50 elderK: nothing personal, just an observation ;) 15:49:59 :P I'm talkative. It's a flaw. See, in reality, I am very much a hermit. Long black hair, the works. I don't have many friends in reality. :) The internet is my reality. 15:50:07 Heh, It's cool man :D 15:50:13 In this life, you've got to be able to laugh at yourself :D 15:50:59 Kind of worried about returning to study, looking at some stuff on it now. One part of that, is the class. Just, really hope I meet some people that I will click with. People that will be zany hackers too, with a penchant for coffee. 15:51:11 Who actually feel /passion/ for it all, you know? 15:51:26 Last time, it was just people who were like "Oh, I thought I'd do this because it was good money... I don't LIKE coding, but, hey." 15:51:36 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-31-122-80.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 15:51:54 Want to meet other people, who wake up in the morning, and the first t hing they think of is.. "Woah, I wonder if this design would ...." 15:51:55 you know? 15:53:42 And hey, guys - as a serious question here, University - my heart is in low-level software, firmware and the like - systems software, kernels. Do you think that... a CS place at University could at least offer me some good learnin' on Compiler design and such? 15:54:01 -!- morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:54:02 Sure, most unis have one or two compiler courses 15:54:06 ^_^ One part that scares and excites me - is that finally, I can plug my biggest hole in understanding - math. 15:54:11 at least, hardcore mathematics. 15:54:16 Sweet :D 15:54:31 It will be so amazingly freaking awesome, to finally conquer Math. 15:54:34 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Success] 15:54:49 hehehe REPLeffect_ .... makes me think ROFLcopter :D Love it. 15:55:14 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:56:36 o_O http://www.otago.ac.nz/courses/papers/index.html?subjcode=COSC 15:56:44 Is it just me or does this seem pretty frikkin weak? 15:58:55 It's probably just you 15:59:06 This isn't #ratemycollege 15:59:17 heh 15:59:21 :P 15:59:48 :P If going there, will not help me learn what I wish to learn, then it may not be my college at all. 15:59:55 Oh... yeah... Degree, need a degree. Fudge. 16:00:02 Not really. 16:00:24 o_O REally? 16:00:59 Also... I wonder if, say, I choose not to get a degree - If I can cherrypick a few papers that /do/ interest me, in and of themselves. 16:01:11 Not sure if most Unis allow that or not? 16:01:21 But if you're in a Nordic country and the government gives you 5000 per year just for being a student, why not. 16:01:47 good point, Jafet. 16:01:55 Again, this isn't #universityhelp 16:02:04 Go find out yourself. 16:02:11 Aye :) 16:03:04 Math. I found the number theory textbook by Rosen to be readable, and there are a number of similar ones 16:04:23 http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Introduction-Modern-Graduate-Mathematics/dp/038797329X 16:04:24 http://www.amazon.com/Number-Theory-Function-Fields-Michael/dp/0387953353 ? 16:04:25 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ybwqq2o 16:04:26 morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 16:06:09 the Classical Introduction does seem pretty sweet, Jafet. 16:06:16 Thanks for recommending that. 16:06:48 Well, that depends on your background 16:07:22 like, current standing in math? 16:09:08 If you're interested in algebraic or analytic number theory, those books seem decent 16:09:10 hrm, upload a .html with inline css to google docs and looks nothing like the original 16:09:18 I've never read them though 16:11:10 That's a first. The scroll wheel on my mouse stripped out :( 16:15:41 vatsal_ [n=vatsal@219.64.76.205] has joined #scheme 16:18:58 -!- arewenothorses [n=Adium@unaffiliated/arewenothorses] has left #scheme 16:19:38 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.97.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:51 xwl [n=user@123.115.97.23] has joined #scheme 16:19:55 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 16:26:50 here's a bit of documentation for the parser I'm writing: http://bit.ly/7FgLoo 16:28:38 N-> is going to be interesting as a func name, it can be 3-> 99->, etc. But it's scheme, right. I can do *anything* ;) 16:28:49 vatsal__ [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has joined #scheme 16:29:56 so anyone know what HtDC stand for? 16:31:01 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 16:31:27 DC device context? 16:31:30 At this point, I'm guessing How to Disrupt Channels 16:31:31 -!- vatsal [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:46 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 16:32:50 Hamster to Dragon Converter 16:34:14 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 16:34:22 morphir: How to Design Classes 16:34:30 -!- vatsal__ [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has quit [] 16:34:43 morphir: see http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/vkp/HtDCH/ 16:35:13 ah, thanks :) 16:39:20 lol 16:39:29 :D foof, awesome 16:45:18 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 16:48:20 -!- vatsal_ [n=vatsal@219.64.76.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:13 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:42 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-31-122-80.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:02 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 16:52:30 synx: (let () (define (always-true x) (if (list? x) (pair? x) #t)) (always-true '())) 16:53:38 hey Riastradh, how was your new year? 16:54:22 bytecolor, Scheme's lexical syntax does not admit +?, 1-> (2->, 3->, 4->, ...), or --, and the R5RS does not admit ->... for any value in the ellipsis. 16:54:25 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has joined #scheme 16:54:38 elderK, well...it seemed to happen, as far as I can tell. 16:55:12 elderK: geez, it just started; give him at least a few months 16:55:18 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:58:47 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:59:30 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 17:00:00 heh. 17:00:12 I was just meaning, like, did you do anything like, have a nice dinner with friend sor family.. 17:00:19 I did nothing like that :) Just another day to me. 17:04:19 sor? Is that a new variant of or, like xor? I wonder what the `s' could stand for... 17:04:30 Since the `x' stands for `exclusive', maybe the `s' stands for `escargot'. 17:06:20 :P 17:06:49 sexclusive or 17:07:14 Wait, that's probably too many fetishes for this channel 17:15:13 +? 17:15:54 lol... 17:16:37 bytecolor: Most of those work in Chicken though 17:17:18 sjamaan: nod, that's my target, not too worried about portability 17:18:10 I played with so many parsers, I though I'd take what I've learned from each and see how simple I could make it 17:18:29 It's just an exercise, really 17:20:14 I kinda like writing my own docs though, helps get a birds eye view of what I'm attempting 17:23:00 Are *any* of those operators commonly used in scheme? That's what was guiding my selection. I didn't want to shadow anything common. 17:23:51 -!- ecomba [n=ecomba@host86-178-148-4.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 17:27:42 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:46 -!- morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit ["leaving"] 17:38:11 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.97.23] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:41:41 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 17:42:12 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 17:46:06 I just wrote a function that is roughly analogous to PLT's "open-input-file" -- it takes a file name, and returns an input port. However, it also takes a procedure which takes a string and returns a string; it calls that procedure on each line from the input file before making it available on the input port that it returns. I would have expected that there'd be something like this already available, but didn't notice any such thing 17:46:06 ... have I just reinvented some wheel? 17:48:43 Perhaps, perhaps not 17:48:48 good answer. 17:48:53 Pretty much covers all the bases :-| 17:49:02 IMHO it'd be better to have a separate function that takes a port and a procedure and returns a port that calls the procedure on every line, tho 17:49:06 Then you can use it on network ports! 17:49:17 alaricsp: true 17:49:19 You're right, that was a lame answer ;-) 17:49:23 that should be an easy refactoring 17:49:46 What I really meant was, I've not heard of such a thiny anywhere, but it could have been done - the failure then being that it was not advertised well enough, rather than yours in not finding it ;-) 17:50:32 Hey Alaric! 17:51:45 'lo elderK! 17:51:47 Still alive?!? 17:53:59 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-147.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:55:05 alaricsp: pretty much my thought too 17:55:59 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 17:58:14 :D sure am 18:00:08 -!- akitada [n=user@unaffiliated/akitada] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:48 samth [n=samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:06 -!- elderK [n=Trev_and@203-211-116-110.ue.woosh.co.nz] has left #scheme 18:09:44 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 18:17:29 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:20:30 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 18:28:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:32:02 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 18:33:53 offby1: I've been working on something like that. My idea reads and filters bytes though, not lines. 18:35:55 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:25 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 18:39:38 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 18:41:20 hiacre [n=hiacre@88-97-27-187.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:43:34 offby1: https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/saver/main.ss for what it's worth... 18:43:52 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:49 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/saver/port.ss 18:46:57 That's as far as I've gotten really... 18:47:45 ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has joined #scheme 18:48:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:49:49 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-94-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:04 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:57:07 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 18:57:54 synx: working on bytes makes more sense, since it's more general 18:58:38 synx: I was just wondering about SSL certificates. Is there no reasonably-cheap service that will sign your cert for you, and that open-source browsers will trust? 19:02:06 offby1, that would stop synx from making a point about the certificate industry each time someone makes the mistake of trying to look at the code on his web server. 19:02:56 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.174.2.5] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:29 now now 19:04:46 offby1: Does mozilla support cacert.org yet? 19:04:55 beats me 19:05:02 I'm using Chrome at the moment anyway 19:05:26 I wouldn't know since I deleted the trust relationships they installed on my computer. 19:06:03 cacert.org is the best I've seen so far. Which is to say it's sucky and pointless, but at least they don't charge moneh. 19:06:37 I would expect even an ideal organization to charge -some- money, since they're providing a useful service. 19:06:42 offby1: just set this certificate as trusted: http://synx.us.to/cert.crt then I'll sign your certificate no problem! 19:06:57 Namely, ensuring you really are who you say you are. I wouldn't even know how to do that myself. 19:07:26 as if you could ever ensure who you really are. Are you really anyone at all? 19:07:28 Who cares about that criterion? For that matter, how does one interpret that criterion? 19:08:19 I assume the idea is: if Mr X ripped people off in the past, and we can show that this site is indeed run by Mr X, then sensible people will not trust it. 19:08:27 -!- JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-092-074-125-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 19:08:35 There is a CA which is trusted by most browsers and which issues certificates for free: http://www.startssl.com/?app=1 19:08:39 But if Mr X has been honest in the past, and this site is indeed run by Mr X, then sensible people will trust it. 19:09:04 I can only assume the reason for not using a certificate trusted by modern browsers is to prevent people from viewing the content, which is exactly why I just don't click on links from synx. 19:09:07 you'd think so offby1, but SSL certificates offer none of that functionality. 19:09:30 I love you too chandler. 19:09:50 synx: huh, what do they offer then? 19:10:27 offby1: It's sort of circular logic. They offer to offer you what they offer. 19:10:32 offby1, you are looking for something much stronger than the TLS infrastructure provides. 19:11:02 A certificate will tell you "who" someone is, by some central authority's definition, but it won't tell you how trustworthy they are, or how likely they are to reciprocate mutually. 19:11:59 I'd be surprised if you could delete the trust certs moz had installed. 19:12:06 In practice scam artists have been mostly turned away by certificate authorities, but IMO that only delays the problem until a much amplified failure happens at the CA level. 19:12:32 mhoye: it's tricky, because they hard code it into a binary library. But removing the library works like a charm. 19:12:32 The last time I tried that, the UI said they'd been deleted, but when you close and reopen, there they are. 19:12:42 synx: You haven't addressed my point: in the presence of various free or low-cost options that would allow your site visitors to view content without extensive and annoying roadblocks, you choose the path which presents the most difficulties to the visitor. 19:13:31 chandler: mozilla wouldn't trust CAcert anyway, and I don't really see any reason you can't just select http://synx.us.to/cert.crt as trusted, and start from there. 19:13:35 synx: I would double-check that, because I don't think (from my last perusal of the situation, a while back) that you can do that and still have certs working properly without editing code and recompiling. 19:13:47 If it works, yay! 19:13:51 synx: Did you not see the other CA I linked to? 19:13:57 If it doesn't, that's valuable information. 19:14:19 synx: I don't really care for a central authority to tell me how trustworthy someone is, or how likely they are to reciprocate; simply knowing their identity is enough. Ideally it'd be the identity of an individual human, not a group of humans, since individuals are more likely to respond to the incentives of guilt and shame 19:14:24 mhoye: I had a page on it, hold on I'll dig it up. 19:14:26 In any event, I'm going to avoid trying to have a reasonable conversation with you about this issue. 19:14:51 offby1: I'm not nearly as trusting of identity as you are. Not sure if that's wise or foolish. 19:14:58 masm [n=masm@bl7-94-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 19:15:02 It's a choice. 19:15:08 We all manage risk differently. 19:15:31 *mhoye* refers back to the "what's your threat model" thread from years ago. 19:16:20 all I really care about is: if my browser says I'm talking to "amazon.com", I want to be sure that I'm really talking to the big Seattle online retailer, and not some scam artist. 19:16:28 Whether Amazon deals with me fairly is my problem. 19:16:29 I haven't seen that site before, chandler. I would hesitate to support any organization that charges money for removing our ability to select anyone else as an authority. 19:16:40 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:16:44 synx: I have no idea what that means. 19:16:58 I don't really trust Amazon all that much. And like I said, it's just betrayal deferred, not avoided. 19:16:59 Paying somebody to manage your certs for you. 19:17:38 synx: well, you're free (and not entirely insane :-) to distrust Amazon, or any particular person or group. But what do you mean by "it's just betrayal deferred"? 19:17:45 mhoye: That might be okay. But I'm paying them not to manage other people's certs against me. It's just racketeering. 19:18:05 I don't understand how getting a free certificate from StartSSL is paying them. 19:18:08 What he means, offby1, is an appeal to emotion by words such as `betrayal'. The purpose of this appeal is not entirely clear to me, though. 19:18:45 Perhaps we're not actually using the same language to communicate, in which case I regret having taken part in this discussion, and would take the opportunity to remind everyone that #scheme is an English-language channel. 19:18:52 offby1: You trust Amazon because they're Amazon, and not because of anything good or bad they did for you. Thus they can continue doing good things while reducing your other options, because you need trust nobody else, and then hit you with a whammy when the company pulls an Enron. 19:19:13 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 19:19:40 It's just trusting someone beyond reciprocation that I worry about. On one hand it does simplify things because you can trust people faster and stronger, but on the other hand... it's insurance. You're paying money you'll probably never get back. 19:19:49 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:53 You might also consider the possibility that the CIA is poisoning your food in the middle of the night when you are asleep. You never know. 19:20:12 The CIA doesn't have root authority over my kitchen cabinet. 19:20:12 Synx, I think you're conflating two things here. 19:20:18 Holy cow, chandler! I need to check my refrigerator RIGHT NOW for the hair I put across its door! 19:20:21 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:20:29 synx: How would *you* know? 19:20:47 chandler: Don't be paranoid. 19:20:53 Guaranteeing your conection to Amazon doesn't guarantee anything else about your interaction. 19:20:54 offby1: In any event, the problem you're describing has been solved to my satisfaction with EV certificates. 19:20:54 *Riastradh* k'snrks. 19:21:15 I *do* know that one organization has central root authority over SSL certificates. I know because they friggin announce it. It's there on paper. 19:21:23 but I think the rest of that interaction is guaranteed by your credit card, no? 19:21:51 synx: Do you ever buy food you didn't grow yourself? If you grow your own food, how do you know others are not out there tampering with it *right* *now*? After all, you're trusting everyone else in the world to not tamper with your food, which is unwarranted and you will only be betrayed later! 19:22:00 synx: "offby1: You trust Amazon because they're Amazon, and not because of anything good or bad they did for you." Uh, no; I trust them because every time I deal with them, they've upheld their end. 19:22:01 synx: what organization is that? 19:22:14 The certification authority industry is for the most part a pretty stupid concept, but I think we're capable of having a more interesting discussion here. 19:22:15 I might be willing to trust Amazon to serve me webpages, if they proved themselves worthy to me. Otherwise I won't surf there. But to have Mozilla install the certificates saying I trust Amazon before I've even heard of the company or checked their site... 19:22:22 I'm not trying to be facetious here, I'm asking. 19:22:30 ICANN I think? Some pseudo-government thing. 19:22:41 I don't think that's correct. 19:22:59 hm... 19:23:30 Uh, the root certificate doesn't mean you trust Amazon. It means that you trust the certificate issuer to have done a reasonable job of confirming that the entity they issued the certificate to is Amazon.com, LLC (at least in the case of an EV certificate). 19:23:43 synx: Mozilla doesn't "say" that you trust amazon; it says that you trust Thawte et al. And you don't trust them for just anything, but instead merely to attest that the "amazon.com" web site is indeed really run by the big Seattle retailer. 19:24:00 chandler: oh crap. 19:24:01 But my understanding of the situation is: for historical reasons, there are a number of cert-issuing and cert-validating organizations that have a broad reach, and whose inclusion in browsers was, for a time, a competitive advantage. 19:24:07 curse chandler and his fast fingers 19:24:13 offby1: :-) 19:24:52 offby1: Thawte has no obligation to assign Amazon to that big Seattle retailer. And maybe I want another company to be called Amazon. 19:24:56 That process continues to have merit, because a lot of the world's transactions are assured by certificates those groups guarantee. 19:25:25 Why it is some entity separate from the domain registrar who certifies that such and such a party owns the domain name bankofamerica.com or amazon.com or whatnot is beyond...well, no, it's not beyond me, it's because some folks figured out that they could make a lot of money on it, but it's still pretty silly. Good thing we're discussing the subject here, though, or else the situation would never change! 19:25:34 synx: er? If they signed a cert from someone who obviously wasn't was who they said they were, people would be shocked; browsers would drop them, and they'd lose money. 19:25:36 But if you know enough about security, and want to make your own decisions rather than trusting legacy decisions, that's just a few keystrokes away. 19:25:49 synx: Talk to the government about that, then. They're the ones who set the rules of business registrations. 19:26:06 offby1: What if I want to start a company named amazon.com? 19:26:20 synx: I suspect you'll have a lot of trouble, what with trademark law and all. 19:26:20 The law would look disfavorably upon such an enterprise. 19:26:21 You can't, synx. Sorry. Not in the US, anyway. 19:26:21 chandler: yeah, see it all goes back to that central authority... 19:26:26 (But at some point, you've got to trust somebody, even if they're paying you cash.) 19:26:29 Curse offby1 and his fast fingers! 19:26:29 Also you'll have trouble registering that domain name, since if I recall correctly, it's already taken. 19:26:40 heh 19:26:42 ooh, did I win? 19:26:48 synx: Have you checked your food for razor blades lately? 19:26:55 What you might *not* have trouble with is persuading some unscrupulous certification authority that you own amazon.com. 19:27:03 The classic "reflections on trusting trust" essay is what basically what stops me from fretting much. 19:27:11 chandler: yes. They make such a rattling noise when I sift the flour. 19:27:27 There's cyanide in the flour, dontcha know? 19:27:32 *mhoye* gives up. 19:28:00 (That's not flour. It's anthrax.) 19:28:26 Oh, darn. I thought it was coke. I was going to sell it to a politician, but if it's anthrax, I guess that would be a bad idea. 19:28:47 Well, doing a line of anthrax is probably a mistake. 19:29:00 I can't always escape authoritarian rule, but the notion that I am somehow wrong for doing so is something I just don't truck with. 19:29:28 Wrong for trying to do so, you mean? 19:29:50 I think that depends entirely on what you mean by "authoritarian rule". 19:30:26 The fact that safety equipment sold in Canada, where I live, must be CSA-Approved? 19:30:31 I fucking love that. 19:30:37 _love it_. 19:30:57 Approved by community-supported agriculture? Interesting. 19:30:58 I think it's fine if it is CSA approved, but that it _must_ be CSA approved? 19:31:08 Canadian Standards Association, and yes. 19:31:24 Just have a sticker or something. As long as I know it's approved by a reputable organization, I need no law to tell me to trust it. 19:31:31 OK. This discussion is at an end. 19:31:40 (Folks, if you'd like to help me to derail this conversation, just jump in.) 19:31:43 yeah, that line crossed it. 19:32:10 synx: paranoid-libertarianism is an epistemological and sociological dead end. 19:32:22 *mhoye* goes to play with his kid. 19:32:33 Riastradh: Did you catch my message yesterday about a paredit mailing list? I think it'd be a fantastic idea, and would no doubt result in plenty of feedback on paredit patches. 19:33:02 I'm really more of a left libertarian than anything. 19:33:26 chandler, yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. It's much easier for me, when someone asks why I haven't released paredit, just to say `Nobody's given me feedback on the patches!', than to actually receive and read and process feedback. 19:33:36 ...I mean, released paredit 22, or 23, or whatever the next version is. 19:33:48 synx: actually, I'm with you on the "_must_ be CSA-approved". 19:33:58 synx: Persist, and I'll have to take action in protest of your hogging the IRC nickname "synx" exclusively. 19:33:59 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-94-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:06 HG` [n=HG@xdslfy074.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 19:34:19 synx: But enough of this extremely off-topic stuff from me for now; this isn't #emacs, after all :) 19:35:31 eh, okay offby1 19:36:45 chandler: for the record, I am not synx. I am 946E3CF4. 19:38:57 13:38 [freenode] -!- Nick synx is already in use 19:39:21 You should dissassociate yourself from this central authority immediately! 19:40:42 masm [n=masm@bl7-94-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 19:42:13 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:42:14 chandler, on a more serious note: I don't remember exactly what you suggested about a mailing list, beyond something about hosting it at common-lisp.net; would you like to volunteer to set it up and administer it? 19:42:31 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 19:44:00 JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-092-074-125-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 19:45:21 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:00:58 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:09:11 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-117-96.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:13:42 Lookie what I just found: http://www.eventbrite.com/event/468173319 20:14:19 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:14:48 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-94-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:03 A little more information, please (ideally, relating it to Scheme). 20:15:17 doh! Sorry... wrong window. 20:19:38 masm [n=masm@bl7-94-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 20:20:16 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has joined #scheme 20:31:23 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 20:32:16 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 20:33:23 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:35:15 Michael_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:39:25 -!- JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-092-074-125-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 20:40:43 MononcQc [n=Ferd@140-161.mc.royaume.com] has joined #scheme 20:43:52 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 20:50:48 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 20:53:40 -!- Mohamdu [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:27 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 21:05:01 visof [n=visof@41.238.232.67] has joined #scheme 21:05:58 copumpkin_ [n=copumpki@94.163.24.252] has joined #scheme 21:10:49 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 21:11:50 -!- MononcQc [n=Ferd@140-161.mc.royaume.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:12:29 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:20:12 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:23:49 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.163.31.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:50 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin 21:29:30 george_ [n=george@189.13.102.17] has joined #scheme 21:38:34 -!- george [n=george@20158189110.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:42:07 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-179.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:44:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:15 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 21:54:22 Pepe___ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:57:21 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:57:33 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-117-96.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:06:29 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:08:24 arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 22:11:20 -!- Pepe___ is now known as Pepe_ 22:11:33 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:12:03 -!- hiacre [n=hiacre@88-97-27-187.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:12:46 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:21:45 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:24:41 I can I use define-runtime-path in the expansion of a macro and that it dwim? 22:25:19 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 22:25:20 *and make it do what I mean. 22:25:24 ? 22:25:45 no idea 22:25:47 Try It And See. 22:28:59 visof_ [n=visof@41.238.235.97] has joined #scheme 22:30:34 domat [n=salim@139.179.197.15] has joined #scheme 22:33:05 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-31-122-80.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 22:43:58 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 22:44:31 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.232.67] has quit [No route to host] 22:46:03 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslfy074.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:54:17 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-94-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:56:13 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:46 -!- visof_ [n=visof@41.238.235.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:36 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:15 masm [n=masm@bl7-94-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 23:19:07 arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 23:19:36 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 23:21:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:22:49 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 23:22:54 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 23:23:19 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@181.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:31 alvatar [n=alvatar@181.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 23:34:46 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:38:16 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:38:16 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057A65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:38:16 -!- Checkie [i=13719@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:38:16 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:38:16 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:40:29 chturne [n=charles@host86-149-126-244.range86-149.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 23:42:36 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 23:42:36 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057A65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:42:36 Checkie [i=13719@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 23:42:41 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 23:42:41 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 23:43:56 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:45 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:53:46 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:54:02 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-249.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:57:38 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-147.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]