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04:39:59 charleyb [n=charleyb@12.236.109.2] has joined #scheme 04:40:51 Penth [n=rachel@pool-173-62-224-249.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:40:58 karlw1 [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:41:36 -!- karlw1 is now known as karlw 04:46:01 The example on the ezxdisp page doesn't work. 04:49:48 eno__ [n=eno@70.137.171.2] has joined #scheme 04:52:20 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:52:23 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:53:52 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 04:55:17 samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:56:47 -!- karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 04:58:37 elderK1 [n=zk@125-236-161-72.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 04:58:44 Yo Schemies 04:58:51 hello 04:59:09 How's it going? 04:59:12 -!- elderK1 is now known as elderK 04:59:25 :) I was wondering if anyone had some neat scheme blogs to recommend? :) 04:59:47 Also, the price of boxing and unboxing in general scheme use. Like, if I wanted to create a pointer-alike in Scheme. 05:01:23 I need to find myself a more effective way to learn good scheme technique, or something. Because so far, implementing ADTs (in a schemeyway) is only so useful. 05:01:42 :) thus, here! For you Schemers of lore, why, you guys know tons :D 05:05:43 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-158-9.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:07:19 I would point you to the scheme blog of a true genius, but unfortunately mine is not working at the moment. 05:07:28 yo, synx! 05:07:31 charleyb_ [n=charleyb@12.236.109.2] has joined #scheme 05:07:38 heh :) Nice 05:07:39 :P 05:07:40 hello! 05:07:48 -!- charleyb [n=charleyb@12.236.109.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:08:01 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:08:46 The frustrating thing is it works to insert and export a file when I enable this chinzy debug encryption, but once I remove the debug and use real encryption, it works except for one byte of the file which is incremented for no reason at all. 05:09:03 Heisenbugs are my bane I swear. 05:09:51 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:10:10 I wonder if it's possible for PLT scheme to remember a few of its tail calls, just for debug purposes, to display them on the back trace. I always end up where it thinks I'm at the beginning of a function several layers of scope above where the actual error is. 05:11:54 back trace for this one is "examine-unit.ss:36:0: decide". And line 36 of that file is "(define (decide)" 05:12:08 hardly the location the error is at. 05:12:48 ah, found the bug I think. But it was a few lines off from where it raised the error. 05:13:12 sometimes it's in a different file entirely. 05:14:08 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:15:14 You can always write (begin (error "Lose!") (list local-variable-a local-variable-b ...)) to request that Scheme remember the values of your local variables in the continuation of the call to ERROR. 05:21:27 hah, point Riastradh. But I just want to remember the last 10 or so. If it goes into a 1000 depth loop I only want the last 10 iterations, not the whole thing. 05:23:14 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:24:49 (Incidentally, MIT Scheme's interpreter records a fixed-size reduction history as you describe.) 05:26:00 ooh neat 05:29:07 Riastradh: what is that fixed-size? I am going to try add something like to IronScheme 05:29:30 s/what/how much/ 05:30:00 leppie: it's over 9000 05:31:58 wow, that is a lot 05:33:25 you're doing it wrong 05:34:10 -!- samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:08 synx: I am not doing anything yet, so how can it be wrong (or right) ? 05:36:10 yo leppie, long time dude! 05:36:20 how's IronScheme going? 05:36:37 hey elderK, going along slowly, but surely 05:36:44 and you? 05:37:30 :) Nice. 05:37:39 Im sick :P but, Im getting better from the flu :) 05:37:51 Once again investigating Lisp and it's ilk. 05:37:56 hehe 05:37:58 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 05:38:04 Still feeling kind of sad that the large bulk of the lisp community, at least on IRC, seem reasonably militant. 05:39:03 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:39:07 ilk 05:39:21 elderK: you should see my collection of assault rifles 05:39:33 hehehehe 05:39:34 :) :P 05:39:38 Aslong as you dont point them at me :)_ 05:40:50 I really don't get this... is there something wrong with the blowfish cipher? 05:41:22 Unencrypted, it's fine, switch on encryption, decrypting changes the last bit of the 4th byte, every time. 05:41:46 is it the nonce? 05:41:51 damn it's probably the iv 05:42:03 sounds like padding 05:44:25 leppie: I find changing my iv algorithm just a bit makes that particular few bits change in the decryption. 05:45:05 I'm still curious as to how binary IO is best done in scheme. 05:45:14 say, messign with bitmaps or... elf executables and whatnot :) 05:45:17 who wrote the cipher? I have written a blowfish in C before with no such issues AFAIK 05:45:28 since, accessing blobs at various offsets as some other type, isnt generally well done. 05:45:37 unless you, of course, assemble the fields octet by octet 05:45:42 or write something to do that for you. 05:45:45 elderK: there is a pack/unpack library for R6RS 05:46:27 aye, but I'm keen to learn how to do it from first principles too, you know: :) 05:46:46 hehe, I dont wanna learn that stuff :) 05:47:26 heh. 05:47:28 I very much do :) 05:47:30 I'm a low-level guy :) 05:47:34 I lvoe all the low-level things :) 05:48:25 I'm not using a broken blowfish cipher. I'm just giving it the wrong IVs to decrypt with, resulting in a perfectly decrypted data, except one byte a few bytes in. 05:48:43 thankfully 05:48:47 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-122-131-178-169.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:05 well then it is not perfect :) 05:49:33 not close enough, certainly 05:49:53 Maybe I'll simply just do a little more throwaway-playing-around in Scheme. 05:49:58 :) only way to learn more, right? 05:51:14 so I have to encrypt several things with the same key, so I mogrify the IV with an incrementing counter, in order to have a different IV for each piece. When decrypting, the same counter is incremented, resulting in the same IVs. 05:51:14 And it worked before and now... it ain't working. So somehow it must be giving different IVs for encryption and decryption. 05:52:06 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:52:06 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176196143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:52:09 maybe you are incrementing it too soon? seeing the last byte is busted? 05:53:32 it gets properly initilized when you change the iv? 05:53:54 Oh and hey guys, 05:54:01 What platform do most of you use? :) I'm curious :) 05:55:59 Rather hard for a small number of people to answer accurately for over 100. But... While I prefer Linux I suspect MacOSX will come in at a rather higher popularity level. 05:56:27 Aye. 05:56:28 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 05:56:30 im a windows man 05:56:44 Atm, I'm on Windows - I gave my OSX cd to my sister, she lost hers. So, I'm stranded here until then :) 05:56:45 but I do test on Linux 05:56:49 Otherwise, I'm a *NIX man generally. 05:57:01 Although these days, It's getting a lot harder for me to feel cosure with Linux. 05:57:07 so, I'll probably migrate to BSD. 05:58:37 I dont know:)I wish I could make scheme more practical for me, but as of yet, I simply do not have the knowledge to know how :( 05:58:44 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:59:07 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:17 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 06:01:44 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 06:03:27 I don'tknow. Im interestedin how people came to meet Scheme, and fall for Scheme :) 06:03:35 How they managed to bring it into their practical life. 06:03:47 ie, use it more and more as opposed to things like C. 06:03:53 Interesting. 06:05:06 elderK: have you given a look to SICP ? 06:05:15 Aye, 06:05:16 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 06:05:16 tjafk [n=timj@e176196143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 06:05:29 I never completed the entire book though. 06:05:30 I wish I had a hardcopy. 06:05:30 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176196143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 06:05:30 :) 06:05:30 tjafk [n=timj@e176196143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 06:05:30 I tend to like reading big things like that in paper. 06:05:32 :P Deadtree, even. 06:05:33 lol 06:05:51 :) 06:06:01 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 06:06:31 A lot of my issues with scheme come with the ideals of good technique, say, referential transparency. I generally don't want that, unless I /need/ it. 06:07:20 if I need it, great, scheme makes it easy. If I dont, then, simply, having RT in everything just wastes memory, at least, to my mind. 06:07:28 :) If I'm wrong or really off base here, enlighte me. 06:07:40 I like scheme because it has real continuations, allowing for asynchronous programming that doesn't produce invasive code. 06:07:40 :P I say that a lot on lisp chats, most just bludgeon me with a sharp stick 06:07:41 :) 06:08:01 Also the people here are real fun, it's a blast compared to some of those other support channels. 06:08:15 Aye. 06:08:29 So many channels these days really... arent in the hacker spirit anymore. 06:08:37 So many seem so damned fanatical and militant. 06:08:40 not at all open minded or fun 06:08:41 :( 06:08:43 Language isn't as important to me as the humanity of those I work with. 06:08:46 Or the algorithms I use. 06:08:48 Same thing really. 06:08:55 Amen to that, dude. 06:08:55 Seriously 06:08:56 :) 06:09:03 You get massive ++s from me there. 06:11:04 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 06:13:21 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:25:57 don't even think about mentioning c++ in my presence *gloom* 06:26:19 :P I shant 06:26:44 I long so badly to use Scheme for things that I use C for, and yet, so many little things trip me up, it's incredibly frustrating. 06:26:45 so, I come here :) 06:26:48 to try and enlighten myself :) 06:27:02 Continuations for example, I am yet to understand where I'd want to use them. 06:30:42 perhaps all I need is to be more vigilant 06:37:22 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:38:03 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-236-161-72.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 06:40:06 oh, the humanity 06:43:10 *offby1* looks around for a flaming zeppelin 06:43:30 oh, the huge manatee! 06:47:17 Oy, the overweight neighbourcat! 06:47:29 *offby1* rubs his leg to get some circulation back 06:48:09 DVT is no laughing matter, son 06:48:44 Drooping Vain Tyndrome? 06:51:03 all right, so it is a laughing matter 06:52:34 s/Vain/Vein/ 06:54:57 -!- charleyb_ [n=charleyb@12.236.109.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:04 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 06:58:07 coolant_ [n=admin-ya@202.169.54.218] has joined #scheme 07:11:09 -!- coolant_ [n=admin-ya@202.169.54.218] has left #scheme 07:18:00 lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:24:05 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.146.247] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:28 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:58 aehrisch [n=knauel@vhost.knauel.org] has joined #scheme 07:32:38 you're so vein 07:33:06 i bet you think this clot is about you 07:37:41 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:58 charleyb [n=charleyb@12.236.109.2] has joined #scheme 07:39:24 charleyb_ [n=charleyb@12.236.109.128] has joined #scheme 07:42:51 mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has joined #scheme 07:44:00 -!- charleyb [n=charleyb@12.236.109.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:44:16 wait....ahhhh 07:44:34 I was saving pieces depth-first, and loading them breadth-first. 07:44:49 So my iv generator with side effects was getting the wrong order x_x 07:50:20 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-146-4.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 07:53:14 so if I decrement the iv during decryption... and switch it to... a breadth first search...yeesh... 07:53:45 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@218.41.107.167] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:56:43 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 08:02:32 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 08:10:24 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["trip!¡lite v1.03b"] 08:11:28 -!- mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:27:18 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:34:00 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-146-4.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:02 choas [n=lars@91.13.198.101] has joined #scheme 09:05:50 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:06:46 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 09:43:17 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 10:05:44 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:28:24 ejs [n=eugen@105-10-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 10:28:39 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:38:44 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:39:57 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #scheme 10:41:03 -!- ejs [n=eugen@105-10-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41:07 ejs [n=eugen@105-10-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 10:41:23 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 11:05:40 ejs1 [n=eugen@91.124.197.53] has joined #scheme 11:07:08 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-248.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:10:30 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:12:16 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 11:15:20 -!- ejs [n=eugen@105-10-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:41 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@91.124.197.53] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:39:08 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 11:40:02 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 11:40:19 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@64.71.152.39] has joined #scheme 12:00:11 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 12:06:18 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-248.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:09:38 masm [n=masm@bl9-115-47.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:12:49 eli: I'm sorry I wasted your time on the mailing list. I just noted that local-expand does what I want. 12:16:45 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 12:20:19 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 12:31:35 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:35:37 -!- xwl` [n=user@123.115.113.199] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:11 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:42:49 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 12:47:45 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:01:16 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:06:28 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 13:06:51 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 13:10:21 davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:13:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 13:18:38 foof [n=user@FL1-122-131-178-169.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 13:27:38 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:33:01 samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:37:36 -!- samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #scheme 13:37:53 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:42:46 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:51 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 13:59:07 karme [n=user@kallisto.karme.de] has joined #scheme 14:00:50 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:04:16 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-197-189.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 14:07:25 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 14:08:57 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-140-82.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:09:01 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 14:18:52 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet88-89.mobile.CARNet.hr] has joined #scheme 14:29:39 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 14:34:42 -!- davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:36 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:07:47 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-miysajuwyhroqdwj] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 15:23:37 -!- ineiros_ is now known as ineiros 15:33:43 -!- karme [n=user@kallisto.karme.de] has left #scheme 15:37:58 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0549DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:08:09 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."] 16:08:44 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #scheme 16:09:04 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:14 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 16:11:45 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #scheme 16:20:05 voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #scheme 16:22:09 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 16:26:59 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-97-246.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:28:23 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:29:03 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:34:21 mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has joined #scheme 16:47:47 -!- kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:28 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:52:35 -!- mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:06 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 17:14:13 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 17:23:44 mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has joined #scheme 17:31:00 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:32 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:09 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@91.191.33.217] has joined #scheme 17:39:55 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:40:08 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:46 -!- mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:46 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:05 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:04:04 pestario [n=pestario@ool-43522f54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 18:05:50 hi... would you recommend starting with SICP to learn the functional paradigm or is there a better/easier resource ? 18:07:30 there might indeed be something better, but SICP is pretty good 18:08:19 i've found sicp to be very heavy to start off with... it's hard to keep at it 18:08:30 but i guess nothing comes easy.. so i will keep at it 18:08:31 thanks 18:08:33 "heavy" as in "hard to understand", or as in "dull"? 18:08:41 pestario: A much easier book is the Little Schemer 18:08:51 offbyl: i would say both 18:08:54 heh 18:09:21 pestario: You could read that first, and then move on to SICP 18:09:33 sjamaan: thanks.. i will look into little schemer 18:09:34 (or read The Seasoned Schemer in between, if you prefer) 18:10:35 i'm a java dev by profession but lisp keeps popping up as something i really want to learn 18:10:42 it's intriguing to me 18:10:53 Cool 18:11:22 The Little Schemer might be too easy for you, but it picks up the pace and by the end it even gets tough 18:11:27 do folks here do scheme/lisp professionally? or is it out of interest? 18:11:34 Some do 18:11:36 ok... cool 18:12:14 I do use the knowledge I gained from studying scheme every day at work, even if I don't program it professionaly 18:12:36 I hope one day to use it at work, though :) 18:12:41 what do u do professionally? 18:13:44 I program web apps 18:13:53 So I work with PHP, Ruby and Javascript mostly 18:14:16 Of those, Javascript is probably closest to Scheme 18:14:32 hmm.. that's interesting 18:14:36 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 18:16:18 pestario: I do. 18:17:02 mario: that's cool.. what kind of industry do you work in? 18:17:27 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 18:17:41 In a company which makes Linux distributions for thin clients. 18:18:21 I also work for a wheel chair industry,developing software in scheme. 18:18:51 fascinating 18:19:11 and what kind of educational background do u have? 18:21:34 pestario: I attended a Computing Engeneering course at the university. 18:21:49 cool 18:21:56 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 18:35:32 masm: no problems. I kind of assumed that you were using it. 18:39:46 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 18:49:47 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 18:52:14 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet88-89.mobile.CARNet.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:05 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:02 eli: I was. The problem is that I misread the docs. I thought that #f and '() as the third argument produced the same result. And I was always using #f. 19:14:11 mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has joined #scheme 19:16:51 vb [n=pestario@ool-43522f54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:18:00 masm: And you don't need a code walker now? 19:25:45 -!- mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:25 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-97-246.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:31:22 eli: Not for now. I'm still experimenting... the strategy that I though first is this one, and is now implemented with local-expand. But there is another possibility, which is what I have in common lisp: the evaluation of the script gives me a syntax tree. 19:31:50 This does not sound very reliable, but I'm checking. 19:33:07 -!- pestario [n=pestario@ool-43522f54.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:51 The idea is to expand (define-values (x y) (car y)) to something like (make-define 'x (make-lambda y (make-app car y)). 19:35:49 masm: A possibly better idea is to have that evaluate to: 19:35:55 Fore some definitions of make-*. The advantage is that car is also defined this way. So, its value is inserted in the ast for this definition. I don't know if this has any value over the other approach... 19:36:05 (define-values (x y) (values (make-lambda ...) (make-lambda ...))) 19:36:31 IOW, you reflect the compiled result of module forms by using the same bindings. 19:36:53 Yes. This is what I do in Common Lisp. 19:37:15 We used a similar approach for the old attempted llvm assembly language, where each name was bound to a label name where the generated name for the code goes. 19:37:26 But I think that this has no real advantage in Scheme, because I can add properties to syntax. 19:37:46 I'm not saying that the advantage is to add properties. 19:38:06 It's just nice to have the same bindings structure -- all kinds of nice things come out of it. 19:38:17 Yes, I agree. 19:46:43 ugh, so... 19:47:12 I have to traverse first using a depth-first algorithm, then using a breadth-first algorithm... but I have to pair an ordered set of integers with each node, in an arbitrary, but identical order for both algorithms. 19:48:16 The depth-first algorithm gets the hashes of the leaves to store in the parent nodes, so it's needed to be depth-first. The breadth-first algorithm decrypts a piece to find its list of children, so it's needed to be breadth-first. But the order of those integers... 19:56:12 if the first set of integers is in order (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) then the second ends up (4 1 2 3 8 5 6 7 10 9) and I dunno a function to transform the latter into the former. 20:08:48 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 20:10:12 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:57 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:23 hm... not quite depth-first actually... or breadth-first. I'll call this stupid-first. 20:24:36 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-97-246.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:27:04 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 20:30:02 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:35 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:37:32 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:39:23 mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has joined #scheme 20:40:37 -!- mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:16 subversus [i=elliot@loveturtle.net] has joined #scheme 20:47:31 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:48:22 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:23 mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has joined #scheme 21:03:49 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 21:04:48 lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:04:48 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:35 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:05:35 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:55 -!- mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:39 -!- charleyb_ [n=charleyb@12.236.109.128] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:19 charleyb [n=charleyb@12.236.109.128] has joined #scheme 21:32:01 I have a module that contains only (begin-for-syntax (display 1)). Why did I get 111 when I evaluated it, instead of 11? 21:32:10 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 21:32:31 I expected to get one 1 for the compilation and another for the evaluation. 21:37:56 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 21:39:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:55 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.57.9] has joined #scheme 21:45:04 IMACHARGINMAHLAZ [n=pumpkin@pat148.vpn.border2-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 21:45:19 masm, what do you mean by `when I evaluated it'? You need to specify exactly what you typed. 21:45:58 When I pressed F5 in DrScheme. :) 21:49:37 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:49:59 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:05 I have a "#lang scheme (begin-for-syntax (display 1))" in a file. If I run it in DrScheme I get 111. In the command line with "mzscheme test.ss" I get 1. I expected 11 in both cases. I'm studying "Advanced Macrology and the Implementation of Typed Scheme". 21:55:33 Why do you expect 11? I expect 1: (display 1) should be evaluated once, when the module is compiled. 21:57:30 -!- IMACHARGINMAHLAZ [n=pumpkin@pat148.vpn.border2-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:57:42 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:57:43 Well, according to the paper, compilation "invokes compile-time parts" and execution "invokes compile-time and run-time parts". 21:57:59 Maybe I don't understand what "invoke" means. 21:59:11 masm, if i invoke that code in x.ss I see "1" 21:59:28 i think you might see it invoked for each time the module is require'd 21:59:45 i mean for each different phase 22:00:10 jonrafkind: With mzscheme? Or in DrScheme? 22:00:21 mzscheme 22:00:24 its the same thing (basically) 22:00:26 i have mzscheme 22:00:29 Yes, I get the same. 22:00:31 masm, does the paper have a handy URI? 22:00:40 In DrScheme I get 111. 22:00:54 drscheme does funky things with errortrace 22:01:08 indeed with errortrace I get "111" 22:01:16 mzscheme -l errortrace -t x.ss 22:02:08 i think you can disable errortrace in the language details, goto "pick a language" and click the "details" button 22:02:14 uncheck "debugging" or whatever it is 22:02:15 www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/scheme2007-ctf.pdf 22:03:01 Riastradh: I'm reading page 4. 22:03:15 borism_ [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 22:03:26 mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has joined #scheme 22:05:12 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:08:47 jonrafkind: OK. Will this make it much harder to debug my code? 22:10:01 well errortrace is supposed to make things easier.. 22:10:12 why are you using compilation time things for side-affects? 22:11:06 masm, are you referring to `For every REQUIRE-FOR-SYNTAX import, invoke that module's compile-time and run-time parts in the next higher phase.'? 22:11:12 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:11:18 (Toward the end of Section 3.2.1.) 22:13:29 Riastradh: I was looking at figure 5. 22:13:58 jonrafkind: I'm not. I'm trying to understand how it works. 22:14:54 Riastradh: This module is not required by other module. 22:15:14 if you run the macro stepper and look at the compelte expansion it might explain why 22:18:57 Riastradh: If I ignore figure 5, I think that this is the expected result. But figure 5 (the two columns to the right) seem to imply that it should be "invoked" two times, for some definition of "invoked". 22:19:29 -!- gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:05 masm, then that is probably a mistake in the paper. 22:30:40 -!- mabes [n=mabes@12.236.109.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:22 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:41:01 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:45:56 Riastradh: "With the old code, running this in the interpreter overflows the heap" <==The Win32 snapshot works fine. 22:46:56 *Riastradh* blinks. 22:49:09 Well, as far as I'm concerned, anything involving w32 is black magic. 22:51:21 Can you reproduce the failure in a non-w32 Scheme? 22:55:02 I haven't tried 22:55:21 *mejja* plays with windoz 7... 22:55:46 davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:56:40 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #scheme 22:56:56 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 22:57:20 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-67-188-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:06 Paraselene__ [n=None@79-67-188-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 23:02:44 Now what would bring you to do such things as that, mejja? 23:04:57 Also, are you sure it works fine? It takes a little bit of time to overflow the heap, so I tested with --heap 10 or something. 23:04:59 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:29 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0549DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05:58 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225048117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 23:06:32 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 23:09:01 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [] 23:09:04 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225048117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:16:18 borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 23:19:24 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 23:21:27 -!- borism_ [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:26:16 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 23:38:08 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-42-45.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:39:51 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit ["_"] 23:44:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:46:29 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@91.191.33.217] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:16 -!- choas [n=lars@91.13.198.101] has quit ["leaving"] 23:47:34 pavelludiq_ [n=quassel@87.246.29.23] has joined #scheme 23:50:56 -!- pavelludiq_ [n=quassel@87.246.29.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:03 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.57.9] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]