00:00:08 chandler: agreed 00:00:39 Not to labor the point, but they do inherit the CLR and JVM based libraries respectively. 00:00:53 One language that I like with a nice environment is Factor 00:01:02 Also, the environment UI's enjoy the all important "principle of least surprise" 00:01:28 I've played with Factor a bit - very, very cool language. 00:01:30 Summermute66: I'm not impressed by environments that try to cover up deficiencies in the language. 00:01:57 arcfide: Um, what the heck is that supposed to mean? 00:02:05 I find it difficult to believe that anything to do with NetBeans or Eclipse obeys the "principle of least surprise". 00:02:18 Or of least anything, really. 00:02:29 Hehehehe 00:02:44 Principle of least simplicity, perhaps? 00:03:15 Summermute66: I'm not really impressed by these large, overly complex IDEs. I've yet to see them provide something that made my life easier in Scheme. That is, the IDE a la Eclipse and Visual Studio isn't as helpful with a language like Scheme. GUI Editors, are something else, but that's different than these IDEs. 00:03:28 F# is a rather nice ML (OCaml) implementation; and Scala implement's a type system to rival Haskell's AND is very arguably more practical for day-to-day programming. I don't see where the UI's "hide" any "flaws" 00:04:30 Whether you collectively like it or not, MS Visual X *IS* the current "principle of least surprise" when it comes to IDE's. 00:04:42 Says who? 00:04:45 Certainly not for me! 00:04:53 It's more of a principle of most pain. 00:04:54 arcfide: seconded 00:04:55 Says the marketplace. 00:05:05 Summermute66: And I care about that why? 00:05:22 You presume that people who use Visual Studio do so because they like the interface. 00:05:29 I think that's a *huge* logical leap. 00:05:46 Because we're talking about amassing forces behind our language of choice, not living in our own little Scheme caves. 00:06:00 I have no idea what you're trying to argue anymore. 00:06:05 ?_? 00:06:08 And I didn't think we were talking about that. 00:07:13 Summermute66 : You know about jazzscheme? 00:07:29 Look, like it or not, NetBeans (just to pick a free one) kicks the crap out of developing code at a REPL. It just does. Arguing otherwise is merely the sound of one hand clapping. 00:08:10 ... 00:08:20 you can't win an argument by simply declaring the other side invalid 00:08:23 I think I've had just about enough of this. 00:08:23 that's cheating 00:08:24 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 00:08:31 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:08:44 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:08:47 Summermute66 : What is better with NetBeans? 00:09:28 Summermute66: Every discussion you're involved in here seems to come back to this one topic, but you don't seem to have a point to argue. 00:09:37 And even if you did, I'm not sure what you'd want to come of it. 00:09:54 And there are problems when future users (language users, in this case) come to expect environments that are likely 1MM+ LOC implementations more or less tightly integrated with their cool Scheme language. 00:09:59 You haven't laid out how either of those arguments provides something substantially better than what PLT Scheme provides. 00:10:40 Summermute66: Lot's of assertion, rather lacking in the proof of any kind department. 00:11:27 And now you're trying to apply proof-by-assertion. 00:11:30 You don't understand - in the marketplace EXPECTATIONS > BETTER in any case. Trumps better big time and pretty much every time. Hence the design phrase we all know, "principle of least surprise." 00:12:14 I'm getting rather annoyed with this constant circular discussion. 00:12:35 You don't want to make me annoyed. 00:12:59 What are you going to do - turn me into a toad? 00:13:28 *mbishop* pokes chandler 00:13:30 (That's a SICP cover reference with the Wizards) 00:13:38 Very likely. 00:14:15 Summermute66: Things can change. It happened already. I'm wondering what you are suggesting that we do? 00:14:17 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:15:11 ratelle: sorry to bother you, is my last question: does Gambit have macros system, able to manipulate code? 00:15:48 chandler: in some ways, net beans/eclipse/VS are nicer than DrScheme 00:15:50 yes. 00:15:55 x2cast: I'm happy to answer your questions. It has define-macro 00:16:26 Sure. I presume (probably wrongly) that we're all delighted that PLT offers a nice GUI IDE like DrScheme. It better meets our *general* expectations - both aesthetic and functional. So I think we should look to the next "level" of development environment embodied currently by NetBeans, Eclipse and I'm sure some others. 00:16:31 x2cast: syntax-case and syntax-rule behave badly with the debugger. But if you're interested there's a *not so simple* solution 00:16:45 ratelle: :) thanks 00:17:16 So "the answer" is that we might look at cramming all our beautiful scheme systems into these fancy new fangled environments instead of trying to roll our own. 00:17:16 Does it have explicit-renaming or syntactic-closures? 00:17:23 That's not so radical a point, is it? 00:17:27 ratelle: I think that Gambit + Termite sounds like the most interesting lisp derivative to me 00:17:30 samth: I wouldn't dispute that there are nice features to be found; however, especially when it comes to Eclipse I find that there is a very high conceptual startup cost. 00:17:36 netbeans, eclipse and the likes make me wanna puke 00:17:51 Summermute66: it turns out that IDE support in the presence of macros is hard to do 00:18:01 ratelle: Is a big departure from the crappy Autolisp I *have* to learn, but I think is worth it 00:18:01 fortunately Slime is coming for Gambit-C 00:18:08 Java and its stronghold on IT generally nauseates me,. 00:18:14 x2cast: If you are interested in gambit you might also want to look into black hole which is a module system for gambit 00:18:28 x2cast: That's actually the solution for hygienic macros 00:18:31 also, interactive recompilation is much slower when you have to recompile as many things as macros generally require 00:18:35 samth: None of those environments make the "start the IDE and begin programming" task as simple as it is with DrScheme, and this is a point that I think DrScheme was designed for. 00:18:36 http://jlongster.com/blog/2009/10/21/preview-what-come/ 00:18:41 caoliver: i agree, but not so much java, as much as messy, bad java 00:18:45 ratelle: I will! you have a link? 00:18:48 -!- ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:18:49 I read that. As a Slime-er withCL, I find that great news. 00:18:55 chandler, that's very true 00:19:01 minion: ?black hole 00:19:04 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 00:19:11 heheheheh 00:19:14 IT has a fetish for ugly nasty gratuitous complexity. 00:19:24 which is why we tried (but haven't fully succeeded) in creating drscheme-for-java with ProfessorJ 00:19:26 x2cast http://dynamo.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/wiki/index.php/Black_Hole 00:19:34 ratelle: thanks! 00:19:59 it does. but done properly java can be pretty decent, it doesn't have to be nasty. not that I love java... but it gets a terrible rap when really sometimes people just don't code in it too well, and that's the predominance 00:20:02 samth: Sure, I think we should presume like various language (and TOOL) implementors before us, we'd be extendig these environments even further to meet our needs. Just think of the first UML kooks who had no way to draw little diagrams in Eclipse - I imagine they had quite a bit of work to do :-) 00:20:26 ventonegro : I can't wait for James to make a first release 00:20:32 ratelle: thanks for everything! 00:20:39 good night everybody! 00:20:44 \o 00:20:46 x2cast see ya 00:20:51 -!- x2cast [n=alvaro@43.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #scheme 00:20:57 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A900F7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:02 I would imagine they actually had quite a lot more work to do for Eclipse than it would have been to implement a diagram editor for DrScheme. Doing anything in Java invariably requires mountains of code. 00:21:04 What's missing as an environment in emacs? 00:21:27 A decent implementation language? I/O that doesn't block the whole world? 00:21:37 a gui? 00:21:40 chandler : agreed 00:21:54 syntax coloring that doesn't use regexps? 00:22:11 The frame/buffer split is also not very obvious (let's call it "discoverable") to new users. 00:22:12 samth : a gui? 00:22:22 Summermute66: macros are a fundamental discontinuity 00:22:25 davids [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 00:22:29 Well, I'm just speculating, but a relatively small amount of work would allow SISC or Kawa development in either Eclipse or Netbeans. No need to do all tool work in Java. 00:22:32 samth: that's not a necessity 00:22:44 chandler : frame buffer is a feature for me. I hate popups and transients 00:22:45 samth: see the javascript and nXML modes 00:24:26 Summermute66: If you really want to do Scheme for Eclipse, nobody's stopping you! 00:24:32 I will gladly admit (even if I don't like it) that developing in an environment of literally 100's or even 1000's of active developers with conflicting needs and ever more stupid designs and technology fetishes isn't the way to have a great time. 00:24:35 It's been done already. 00:24:50 There is a Scheme plugin for Eclipse, with REPL integration and the like. 00:24:59 Well, there you go! 00:25:01 Yes, doesn't SISC ship with Eclipse "out of the box" 00:25:27 Your industrial strength IDE apparently already exists, so no need to bother us folks. 00:25:40 I'd rather utilize Scheme to improve the world, rather than try to make Scheme fit into a world where it doesn't belong. 00:25:43 And with that, I'm out. 00:25:49 By the way, I suspect that you'd be just as much laughed at if you told a bunch of Ruby users that they need to be using VS/Eclipse/NetBeans too. 00:26:21 chandler : Well every subculture laugh of every other subculture ;) 00:26:47 Yeah, but the brain power of PLT brought to the environment and, really, pretty slick tool integration, of something like Eclipse would be a killer combination. Or at least as killer as a language with too many parens is likely to be :-) 00:27:14 gaze_ [n=gaze@169.231.22.122] has joined #scheme 00:27:23 parens again, grumble grumble! 00:27:31 arcfide: That's actually a very thoughtful point I'll ponder further. Ciao. 00:27:46 can't you see this trolling as it is? 00:27:56 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@87.250.120.39] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:29 Besides, all anyone needs is a comint running under emacs. 00:28:33 *caoliver* ducks and runs. 00:29:02 -!- Osaka [n=yuki@pool-71-100-33-10.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:29:09 trolling? 00:29:17 ventonegro: You sure? 00:29:36 ventonegro: They might be valid points even if I don't agree 00:30:17 that's the worst trolling 00:30:36 "Or at least as killer as a language with too many parens is likely to be" 00:30:41 is this an argument? 00:31:01 I took it as a joke... 00:31:11 Sorry, I'm in the middle of 1) designing a language and compiler and 2) in PLT Scheme - so I'm very interested in the cultures and environments and tool support and expectations of language users, Scheme users in particular. Sorry if this bothers folks. 00:31:13 the limitations of text as a medium 00:31:19 Summermute66: People do what they want to. You can't make people work on the things you want them to. 00:31:28 Summermute66: actually, I'm very fond of Slime as an IDE. But I intended an gentle ribbing rather than a troll. 00:31:32 unless you become dictator of the world! 00:31:46 (that's my plan! then I can have minions working on my software projects) 00:32:00 copumpkin: What ideology will you use? 00:32:16 ratelle: the "write my code for me while I think hard" ideology 00:32:39 I like Slime too, but i don't have slime for PLT. I have something called Quack which sucks in comparison. 00:33:11 Summermute66: Sounds cool. I've been following on and off what's been happening with the old Symbolics assets hoping they'll go open soon. Genera may not be pretty, but I think it's an important cultural artifact. 00:33:15 copumpkin: I fail to see how you will mobilize frenzied mobs to become dictator with that :S 00:33:39 ratelle: oh, I have a secret weapon that will make me dictator with no effort or mobs needed 00:33:42 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.205.169] has quit [] 00:33:44 sorry, forgot to mention that 00:33:49 hehehehe 00:34:35 I would think Genera would be *relatively* easily ported given the new generation of 64 bit chips. 00:35:14 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:21 For really weird reasons, my old company, Adrenaline Group, used to have two Symbolics machines. 00:35:23 ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has joined #scheme 00:35:44 Actually someone hacked an emu on Linux, but NONE of this is legal unless the probate wrangling gets finished. 00:36:20 What model. I had briefly an XL1201, but it didn't live long before giving me hard memory errors. 00:37:09 Interesting - the reason we had the symbolics machines were *roughly* legal. I was once removed (it was my business partner's contact with some old Symbolic salesman who bound some rights to this or that) - so I don't know all the details. 00:39:12 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:39:22 I don't recall. I was pretty busy being CEO (see, the marketing part of my personality can now be fully revealed and understood), but I do know that my partner's former Symbolic's buddy had a garage full of machines and parts and manuals and what not. Oh yeah, we also had this giant set of hard copy manuals. 00:40:42 BTW, now I'm jealous - is there a Slime for PLT? 00:41:27 I don't know. Given the existing DrScheme env, I'd think few would by motivated to write one. 00:42:18 Under some circumstances, there's more than one thing to be said for "living in Emacs" :-) 00:42:44 -!- masm [n=masm@bl9-115-197.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:44:06 -!- ecyrb [i=bamoore@192.94.73.30] has quit ["*monkey grin*"] 00:46:21 There are times I'll have a few command shells, several source buffers, a Haskell REPL (learning), CCL under slime and mzscheme under Quack (easier "normal" REPL for learning the SRFI's, for example). I'm old enough that it still just feels like home ;-) 00:46:39 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-39-165.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:47:17 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-rsdvdzrrigrutlvj] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:47:40 Agree there. I learned the basic keys on CP/M under Perfect Writer. 00:48:22 Back in the CP/M days I was a poor kid - I could only drool over those machines in Byte :-) 00:49:19 Agree. I have the Byte Smalltalk issue around here, and reading the prices of those old eight bit machines make one's head spin. 00:49:33 -!- rcassidy [n=rcassidy@129.10.209.31] has left #scheme 00:49:38 The covers of those old issues are real works of art 00:49:47 Hehe, I've begun to feel quite at home in my Acme Programming Environment (no joke; well, okay, it's funny sounding too, but yeah, it's real). :-) 00:50:43 The Smalltalk issue was great, 'cos the articles were pretty much all written by the luminaries from XEROX PARC. 00:51:02 I think Kay is about the only big name missing. 00:51:03 Some years later, I had bought 2MB of precious RAM and installed Smalltalk/V 286 on a Zeos 286 box I had. Really ran like a dream response wise compared to todays boxen. 00:51:20 Sometimes I wonder, where do all the cycles go? 00:51:29 Sigh! 00:51:51 arcfide: Acme? Do tell. 00:52:07 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:52:27 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AcmeProgrammingEnvironment 00:52:38 00:53:18 Oooooohh - are you running plan 9 for real? 00:53:39 Summermute66: I wouldn't be using Chez if I was. I'm running Plan9ports. 00:54:31 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:54:39 Slackware64 13.0 on a Lenovo T500 running KDE with Acme on top of it for editing Scheme code in Literate style using noweb and my own TeX style, Chez Scheme as the Scheme implementation of choice. 00:54:55 Monotone as the VCS of choice. 00:55:09 Ok, so let me try to grok this - are you running a port of pike's Acme UI ? 00:55:26 Summermute66: . 00:55:42 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-142-49.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:55:49 Aha, I see it now - Acme on KDE 00:56:06 That's is one very cool and VERY TRIPPY setup 00:57:08 Summermute66: Speaking of obscure, you can find some literate scheme programs on . 00:57:16 Which is where I host my code. 00:57:21 haha gopher 00:57:29 How are you finding Slack 13.0 00:57:30 ? 00:57:31 Summermute66: Of course, the gopher server is written in Chez Scheme. 00:57:33 BTW, I'm a Lenovo laptop man - they're just right somehow. It's the keyboard, I think. I really want a tiny, cheap netbook, but I wish Lenovo would make one. 00:57:43 caoliver: Love it, as much as someone from OpenBSD can love Linux. 00:57:52 Hehehe. 00:57:56 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:59 I'm running 12.2 (Slack and SLAMD) and dreading the upgrade. 00:58:06 Summermute66: I don't use Lenovo's keyboard. I use . 00:58:33 Summermute66: And this is my mouse: 00:58:34 I missed the Slackware part - that's an even more trippy setup :-) 00:58:49 caoliver: It depends on whether you're a KDE 3.5 diehard. 00:58:50 gaze [n=gaze@169-231-109-210.wireless.ucsb.edu] has joined #scheme 00:59:09 caoliver: I switched over right before the 13.0 release, using -current. 00:59:09 Personally, I'm not so much a roll my own type by a long shot. 00:59:31 Summermute66: Roll your own? :-) Heheh. Why do people always think that's what Slackware is? *chuckle* 00:59:36 I'm not at all a desktop guy. I just have PEKWM. 01:00:09 No, I meant your whole "software stack" - i think most would characterize that as rolling one's own 01:00:28 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:00:39 -!- mmc [n=mima@89.27.122.78] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:44 Summermute66: Hahaha, um, well, maybe. 01:00:49 I'm a bit of roll my own 'cos I tend to find myself fighting heavily managed distros. I have to set up Ubuntu for a friend, and I'm putting it off. 01:01:07 how did you come across Acme and how do you find its use day-to-day? 01:01:40 Do you use it for all your text editing? How did you integrate it into a "literate scheme" etc. 01:02:04 Summermute66: I was transitioing to Slackware, and i couldn't very well continue to use Vi if I was going to use KDE. I had decided on not going with the KDE apps, so that took out the usual candidates. I figured that NEdit might work, but I was in the mood for something else. I searched around for a heavy mouse based editor with a twist, and found Acme. 01:02:19 I played with it a little, and it really is working great. 01:03:05 Very cool - from the Web site, it seems to have an "emacs'ish" environment feel/function to it. 01:03:40 Summermute66: Usually, I have two to three columns open and I have one column dedicated to editing, the other columns are for navigation and runing code. I have a Makefile that generates the code I want from the noweb files, and I have a set of guide files that contain the code snippets that I run for testing on the REPL. I start a Scheme pipe inside of Acme and run my Scheme code from there. 01:03:48 It's not like Emacs. 01:04:04 in fact, I just read that "acme is in part a file server" - sounds intriguing! 01:04:26 I also am a very bad Schemer: I use proportional width fonts and tabs instead of spaces. 01:04:37 Don't copy that. 01:04:40 :-) 01:04:40 tsk tsk tsk :-) 01:04:59 r2q2 [n=user@acm-linux.cs-icl.uic.edu] has joined #scheme 01:05:11 I basically make my own menus for whatever directory I am working in, so I have a "fully context sensitive" menu. :-) 01:05:36 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 01:05:43 I just use the mouse to pipe code form my editing window to my Scheme REPL, or I load it in after making the file using guide file commands. 01:06:13 Summermute66: If you want to see the framework, you can check out mtn.sacrideo.us using monotone branch us.sacrideo.misc. 01:06:26 Or just go to the Gopher server and grab the release. 01:06:31 -!- gaze_ [n=gaze@169.231.22.122] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:06:37 Although I've made quite a few changes to the sockets library since then. 01:06:57 We'll I've got an old laptop where the keys are just sticky from over use. I plan on cleaning it up (hopefully without breaking it) and putting a Linux on it (my other Linux boxes are badass and too loud and i have a weird illness that does NOT react well to humming computer fans). Anyway, hopefully I'll remember after this whole ordeal to give Acme a try - look like a great piece of a software "of its genre." 01:07:25 Summermute66: It gets the job done. 01:07:31 Making menus - very cool 01:07:38 Summermute66: While you're at it, get a license for Chez Scheme, and start using Noweb! 01:07:45 *arcfide* chuckles. 01:08:06 Is noweb a TeX based system? 01:08:20 Gopher server???? 01:08:22 Summermute66: It's independent of the documentation language. 01:08:31 I've always thought about Chez, but I recall the license being fairly spendy. 01:08:39 Summermute66: I use TeX, it has defaults for LaTeX, TeX, HTML, and something else, I think. 01:08:42 I used to be a real troff tbl head, no fooling :-) 01:08:52 Summermute66: If you use Slackware, let me know, and I can send you all my slackbuild scripts. 01:09:06 r2q2: You got a problem with the rodent? 01:09:24 I didn't know they still used those. 01:09:37 caoliver: It's not that expensive for a single user license, relatively speaking. Though, it certainly isn't free. 01:10:18 r2q2: I wrote my own gopher server in Scheme, and yes, a few people do still use them. There is another gopher server for Chicken. It's a bit less Schemey and more compatible with the other Gopher Server styles. 01:10:44 arcfide: That's not so likely. I'm a bit of a joiner. Ubuntu sounds like it has a good smooth regular upgrade system, which sounds good to me after trying to keep up with whatever Fedorah would throw out the door every 6 months willy nilly. 01:10:47 r2q2: I think I am the only one who uses it for "real" things, though. 01:10:57 Gopher: now there's a blast from the past. 01:11:30 caoliver: I call my server Goscher (Go - Sher). 01:11:50 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 01:11:50 "Yeah, but is it Goscher?" 01:13:09 Odd question-how does noweb compare to scribble? I've always considered myself reasonably bright, but whenever I try to figure out PLT's scribble, I just draw some kind of blank. 01:13:21 Summermute66: I have never used Scribble. 01:13:29 Summermute66: I didn't find it hard to start using. 01:13:43 However, Scribble isn't quite LIterate programming a la Knuth. 01:13:49 That may or may not be a good thing in your eyes. 01:13:51 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:56 Noweb is much more in the Knuthian style. 01:14:05 hmmm. I'm a verbose code commenter to say the least, so maybe noweb would be a better language agnostic investment? 01:14:17 *arcfide* shrugs. 01:14:24 You'll give up a lot of things that I suspect you like. 01:14:35 Yes, I've perused both of the Knuth TeX books back in the day 01:14:43 ?? 01:14:58 arcfide: Please don't spread your lack of knowledge. 01:15:06 noweb doesn't play nice with many syntax highlighters (not a problem for me since I don't use syntax highlighting). 01:15:14 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:21 eli: Particular mistake? 01:15:35 arcfide: Have a look at http://docs.plt-scheme.org/games/chat-noir.html and the source for the documentation and the game at http://svn.plt-scheme.org/plt/trunk/collects/games/chat-noir/chat-noir-literate.ss 01:15:37 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ykn46jr 01:15:57 Oh, that's not so important to me. Surprised emacs doesn't have a "noweb + language X" set of modes ;-) 01:16:31 eli: as scribble examples? 01:16:32 Summermute66: I've been corrected. 01:16:39 Scribble looks pretty Knuthian. :-) 01:16:40 This is in some concrete ways literare programming done *right*. 01:17:12 Hmmm, looks like i have two good choices - good :-) 01:17:14 With noweb and similar tools you're basically facing a 3rd tool, which has no information about either the language used for code or the language used for documentation. 01:17:24 eli: Do you like literate programming? Specifically, is there some metric you have for good versus bad literate programs? 01:17:39 This can degrade very fast into all kinds of line-oriented hacks that are way too horrible to consider. 01:17:51 arcfide: I dislike it intensely. 01:18:00 *gnomon* notes that troff is a line-oriented hack 01:18:01 eli: :-) 01:18:12 The whole principle behind it is to completely break lexical scope. 01:18:25 eli: That depends on whether or not you have proper filters in noweb. The default filters certainly aren't going to help you with Scheme. 01:18:48 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 01:18:48 -!- davids [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 01:18:50 eli: true on the language agnostic problem, but it's nice I can plug it into my own source when I get my language bootstrapped ;-) 01:18:56 -!- ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:18:59 ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has joined #scheme 01:19:10 gnomon: I mean the line-oriented hacks in a more basic level -- as in the hacks that you can get into when you use the Haskell documentation thing, unrelated to troff making newlines be part of its syntax. 01:19:31 eli, I know; sorry for interrupting otherwise serious conversation with my silly babbling. 01:19:40 *gnomon* makes monkey noises and then quietly leaves the room 01:19:45 arcfide: I don't know how filters can help you recover the now-shatered lexical scope. 01:20:38 Summermute66: How is bootstrapping related? In any case, to get just basic weave/tangle, a simple preprocessor is sufficient. 01:21:02 The kludges begin later, when you want to index blocks etc. 01:21:19 eli: I wasn't referring to that. You must be talking about some other line-oriented issue than I am thinking. I agree that you end up visually separating out different sections of code, some of which may in fact be nested in terms of scope. 01:21:32 I'm using PLT to write a compiler, that's all - so I presume could use something like noweb on my own source code 01:21:47 OTOH, the scribble/lp language works with *bindings* for the block names, so, for example, once you click check-syntax, you get arrows that can show you where some block is coming from, etc. 01:23:19 arcfide: The bottom line is that the underlying assumption in LP is that the layout of code for the machine (=> lexical scope) is different than the layout for humans -- and since you're expected to write the code in a human-oriented way, you're basically forced to break the lexical scope. 01:23:35 I consider the result of this a total disaster for programmers to work with. 01:23:39 Anyway, I'll give scribble another try or two for now. I've a long way to go from here (parsing) to there (optimization, compilation, linking, runtime system, etc.) Scribble should do nicely between now and then. 01:24:01 eli: Understandable, and fair enough. 01:24:31 Summermute66: Scribble is itself a collection of tools -- the LP language is just one of them. It is more commonly used to write manuals in a more "conventional" markup language, where the language just happens to be Scheme. 01:24:52 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:02 eli: Funny, I wondered the exact same thing reading the TeX books way back in the day. Not so much in a principled way, just in a practical "what the hell is a scope" kind of way. 01:25:38 Summermute66: Also, the syntax that gets used in Scribble is something that is useful for more than just documentation systems -- it's a generic tool for any "text-oriented" task. For example, see the preprocessor language: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/scribble/preprocessor.html -- which is used for text templates with Scheme code. 01:26:04 Summermute66: Yeah, I kind of had this reaction from the first minute I've seen LP. 01:26:04 Specific question: Can scribble *easily* be used like JavaDoc - module and function documentation with minimal muss and fuss? 01:26:42 Are you talking about documentation and code being in the same module? 01:27:11 Just to be clear, there are several different approaches here, 01:27:12 Yup - just inlining the documentation in comments in the code. 01:27:33 one of them is LP, where the code and documentation are mixed up (in a bad way -- IMO). 01:27:43 I'm just looking for a decent way to produce HTML and/or printed docs of modules/functions/arguments 01:27:52 Another is the documentation lives with the code in a JavaDoc kind of way in comments. 01:28:18 The latter seems the practical and "safe" way for what I need to produce 01:28:24 Yet another is similar to the last one, but not in comments. There is support for this one in Scribble. 01:28:47 Yet another one (and my current favorite) is to have your documentation combined with your test suite. 01:28:48 Ok - how does that work roughly? 01:29:14 The documentation for the preprocessor language (the last URL I just posted) is done this way -- and I find it very natural. 01:29:33 I don't think that you should be in the same mindset when you're describing an API and when you're documenting it. 01:29:36 Is that the Chat Noir game? 01:29:40 (No) 01:30:01 When you try that, you end up having the documentation be done in an awkward way, or the code structured in an awkward way. 01:30:27 But unit testing is (almost by definition, IMO) very related to the way you document an API, so they go very well together. 01:30:38 I have a really silly problem. 20 years ago I could crank out 10K lines of C per month and keep it all in my head. Now, I'm lucky to remember keyword args for a function I wrote yesterday. 01:30:50 that's SO silly. 01:30:55 *offby1* makes cruel fun of Summermute66 01:31:10 *eli* joins the club... 01:31:13 Why, I'm 94, and I can crank out thousands of bug-free lines of assembly every day. 01:31:44 And finally there is the approach of having documentation be completely unrelated to the source -- this one is the most common thing used in PLT (through Scribble). 01:32:04 Summermute66: As for your question, the Chat-Noir game is an example of using literate programming -- the classic kind. 01:32:13 So I need a simple way to produce a simple, online hierarchical, browsable docs of modules, classes, functions, methods, types, their arguments, their type parameters - AS EASILY AS POSSIBLE. 01:32:55 Summermute66: For a more javadoc-like approach, see for `provide/doc' -- http://docs.plt-scheme.org/scribble/srcdoc.html 01:33:16 It's not completely like Javadoc -- the idea is that your `provide' forms also have documentation bits. 01:33:54 The documentation also describes a facility for extracting that documentation, since the system arranges for the actual compiled form of the files to not have any overhead. 01:33:55 Thanks, I'll look right there right now. Thanks for all your help. I'm all chatted out - my ass actually hurts :-) Ciao! 01:34:15 With all of these you're probably best off starting with some examples from the PLT tree. 01:34:47 Ok, I'm back - PLT Tree? 01:35:03 The plt source tree. 01:35:12 Ok. Gotcha. 01:39:05 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:39:56 arcfide: Apologies for that mini-outburst, BTW. 01:40:16 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:42:18 eli: Eh? 01:42:21 Mini outburst? 01:42:34 You mean your loathing of LP? 01:43:22 LP? 01:43:29 r2q2: Literate Programming. 01:43:33 yea 01:45:10 eli: If you mean the outburst against LP, that's quite expected, and I wouldn't call that anything needing an apology. I think many would agree with you. 01:49:53 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:55:44 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:57:30 -!- gaze [n=gaze@169-231-109-210.wireless.ucsb.edu] has quit [] 02:01:53 arcfide: No, I meant my initial "lack of knowledge" comment... 02:02:05 Oh, hahaha. 02:02:23 Well, I was wrong, wasn't I? ;-) 02:02:34 Anyways, not a problem, no offense taken. 02:09:27 Literate Programming always seemed like a nice idea. 02:10:19 offby1: Have you ever tried it for any serious project? 02:10:51 gaze [n=gaze@169-231-109-210.wireless.ucsb.edu] has joined #scheme 02:12:36 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [] 02:17:54 nope. 02:18:00 I assumed it'd be a pain in the ass :) 02:18:04 hence the "nice idea" 02:18:20 offby1: Well, I always thought that led up to, "but I tried it and ---." 02:24:18 Literate programming always seemed like a horrible idea. It's bad enough that code lies so often, but literate programs lie in English too. 02:24:50 Literate programming is hard because there are few people that can write good code and good english I thought. 02:31:39 chandler: Well, they could lie in French :) 02:33:55 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:39:37 chandler, hey, what happened to the "annotate this paste" links on paste.lisp.org? 02:40:27 Does it expire after a certain period of time, now? 02:40:32 Are you looking at an old paste? As in the order of six months old or older? 02:40:59 No, it's closer to two months old. 02:41:10 Oh. Let me see what I set that to. 02:41:22 Ah; I set it for a month. 02:41:28 Do you think that's unreasonable? 02:41:34 ...well... 02:41:47 I added the expiration because I found that there were a lot of pointless, stupid, and nuisance annotations getting added to older pastes. 02:41:47 No, that sounds reasonable, but would be incensed if I overrode it? 02:41:55 That's a crying shame. 02:42:08 I know all there is to know about the crying shame 02:42:34 CAPTCHAs didn't seem to help: in some cases, apparently real humans found a paste, thought it was a support board, and proceeded to hit "annotate" and fill in a question or comment. 02:42:40 Bah, I'm just abusing it in a different way; I was using it to store publicly-available shell scripts. I really should just bite the bullet and set up a repository on gitorious or something. 02:42:53 Oh, gosh, that's horrid. 02:43:23 Can you refuse to accept a paste unless the user types "I know that this is not a support board and that nobody will answer a question I type here" in a textarea? 02:43:40 Heh. 02:44:03 Other annotations that were apparently added by real people were just junk contents. I can't really guess at the purpose of those. 02:44:13 Well, pooh. 02:44:16 I can't fault your logic. 02:44:42 oh, c'mon 02:44:46 you're not trying hard enough 02:46:56 Hm. Perhaps better said, then: I can't gainsay your experience? 02:47:58 *offby1* looks up "gainsay" in the dictionary 02:48:07 s/looks up/pretends to look up/ 02:48:52 You didn't run across that work during the Monty Python argument/hitting-on-the-head-lessons sketch? 02:49:02 s/work/word/ 02:49:13 *caoliver* needs new fingers 02:49:33 You should try tentacles instead! Far more versatile! 02:50:19 I think I'd find the typing even worse. 02:50:37 Works fine for me! 02:50:49 *gnomon* inflates a bunch of paper bags and baps them at caoliver 02:50:56 caoliver: I probably did run across it, but forgot. 02:51:04 caoliver: stalker. 02:51:29 Heh! 02:52:23 I just tend to open #lisp, #scheme, and #emacs along with a few sundries when I start IRC. 02:52:47 chandler pasted "A list of pastes with annotations that were made >6 months after the paste" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89349 02:53:18 offby1: This one is a particular boggle: http://paste.lisp.org/display/363 02:53:40 Sorry; that was meant for gnomon. 02:53:49 S'ok. 02:54:25 gnomon: Here's an example of the "support board" style annotation: http://paste.lisp.org/display/424 02:54:36 heh 02:54:46 And the WTF: http://paste.lisp.org/display/604 02:55:34 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 02:55:41 cats can create XML too, you know. 02:55:48 no need to get all huffy 02:57:02 The "support" 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metasyntax nothingHappens joast 06:18:59 -!- names: dmoerner snorble kilimanjaro Adamant saccade ray copumpkin StucKman antoszka mreggen Summermute66 proq foof Fufie leppie ejs peddie XTL thermal_ clog Axioplase_ araujo elf xwl_ borism TR2N sladegen untouchable aking yosafbridge stepnem incubot gnomon zeroish elmex ada2358 lisppaste rudybot tizoc Arelius cipher nothere m811 chandler z0d acieroid tarbo ineiros samth_away rotty Khisanth eli makmanalp j0ni saccade_ felipe specbot minion rapacity 06:18:59 -!- names: Riastradh Leonidas p1dzkl r0bby brx poucet Armageddon00 guenthr linas C-Keen kazzmir TimMc certainty 06:22:49 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #scheme 06:25:10 Elly [n=pyxystyx@209.9.227.50] has joined #scheme 06:51:28 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit ["leaving"] 06:56:28 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:09:14 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 07:17:43 tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has joined #scheme 07:46:53 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:48:14 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-141.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:50:01 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 07:54:15 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 07:55:25 dmoerner [n=dmr@90-167.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 07:57:46 ASau [n=user@host220-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 07:58:27 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:59:47 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:01:39 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-155-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:41 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:12:03 schemer999_ [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:18:20 It's way too late, but I can't seem to stop thinking of Scheme and the PLT environment specifically. Any other insomniacs out there? 08:19:57 Hmm, maybe I'll just dump to the mailing list. Night. 08:22:36 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:44 (Only the usual ones.) 08:25:44 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:29:58 yay for insomnia 08:31:04 yay for psych papers 08:33:05 The american higher education system is cruel. 08:33:11 In a boring way. 08:34:52 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:53 -!- schemer999_ is now known as schemer999 08:37:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:38:03 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:40:44 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:43:09 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:52 mmc [n=mima@89.27.122.78] has joined #scheme 08:53:56 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 08:57:40 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 09:11:38 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:14:28 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:05 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 09:29:42 insomnia is fun 09:29:55 ok it's fun until you crash 09:33:58 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:40:48 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-98-182.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 09:43:33 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@90-167.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:43:58 dmoerner [n=dmr@90-167.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 10:00:03 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #scheme 10:02:03 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:12:26 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:21:06 -!- mmc [n=mima@89.27.122.78] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:59 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:33:57 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:47:19 davids [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 10:52:41 -!- tjaway is now known as timj 10:54:20 -!- timj is now known as tjafk 10:56:17 -!- tjafk is now known as timj 10:57:46 -!- timj is now known as tjafk 10:58:39 masm [n=masm@bl10-4-30.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:59:04 mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 11:01:29 wingo-pi [n=wingo-pi@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:05:49 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 11:12:31 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-28-154.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:25:51 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 11:32:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.30.161] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:15 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:43:32 i still haven't crashed and I'm full of lunesta and clonapin :-( 11:44:04 i did discover a nice little problem with typed scheme though ;-) 11:45:43 honestly being on the computer is horrible for your insomnia :P 11:45:56 at a certain point you just say "fuck it" though 11:46:02 You know, that's probably very, very true 11:46:18 well doctors will tell you 11:46:22 the light is bad 11:46:25 But watching Angel reruns is probably no better :-) 11:46:33 and so is the mental stimulus 11:46:49 I'm a known learning junky 11:46:50 vegging is probably not as bad 11:46:55 me too 11:47:05 once I get going on that, i get going 11:47:25 had a book in my pocket ever since grade school and glued myself to a computer ever since college in the late '80s 11:47:53 I know there are worse addictions, but in my case, it really is an addiction. 11:49:01 It's odd - I just always want to learn - EVERYTHING 11:49:19 there's a way to break that addiction but get hit with another one 11:49:25 practicing what you've learned 11:49:39 Gelertner (Linda, Mirror Worlds, etc.) called it "top site" - and damn, i want it :-) 11:50:38 that's what's so devious about computers, i can read the new york times, and then learn about haskell and then justify it all by doing somethingn useful ! 11:50:54 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@90-167.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:15 they are a crack pipe for info junkies 11:51:34 dmoerner [n=dmr@90-167.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 11:52:16 Damn straight - it's an actual known problem about which I read an article. there are actually "pleasure sensors" also triggered by pressing the mouse button - kind of like an obsessive behavior - trippy 11:52:42 just about anything nice can be addictive 11:53:15 It's a good way to look at it - so long as one can keep it together, hell - enjoy life 11:53:38 just make sure to take the netbook out to the beach to get some sun 11:53:40 So what are you doing with Scheme these days? 11:53:53 not much, should really do more 11:53:56 Oh, I'm in the market for a netbook 11:54:12 mostly doing non-Schemey classroom work for a CS degree 11:54:31 i use a lenovo x60s which is pretty small and light, but i want a tiny little Ubuntu netbook 11:54:36 ah 11:55:16 right now I can't spare the cash, but I might get a Dell Mini 10 and turn it into a Hackintosh unless/until Apple creates a netbook/tablet 11:55:19 Seems like most CS programs are pretty theoretical and/or focus on one relatively small specialty 11:55:26 nah 11:55:31 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 11:55:32 this is somewhat balanced 11:55:55 theory here, bunch of junk from several CS fields, practice there 11:56:45 I'm comparing my brief experience at UMD with places like MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Harvard, etc. where they actually seem to produce a large body of functional software along with their studious pursuits. 11:57:02 CS programs are weird, there's no rhyme or reason to the madness that I've seen 11:57:03 I imagine in the end it's really a function of institutional history and grant money 11:57:25 UMD is pretty tough though 11:57:37 they have some crazy requirements for IT majors even 11:57:53 so I assume their CS requirements are not junk either 11:57:54 True enough - it's a hard program. lots of emphasis on performance oriented topics. hard core. 11:58:31 xwl [n=user@123.115.119.166] has joined #scheme 11:59:04 i think it's because they are so close to dc and the NSA - UMD is really the kind of place where they care about parallelizing high performance Fortran programs :-) 11:59:11 ah 11:59:31 yeah I figure there have to be some NSA links 12:00:17 Also, there's one "superstar" there (forget his name) who designed the skip list data structure, which is in pretty popular use. That will guarantee him handsome grants and a nice staff of grad students for the rest of his days :-) 12:00:36 I mean you can't go to Huntsville AL and not hit a physicist if you chunk a half-dozen rocks in a bookstore there :P 12:00:48 hee hee 12:00:52 well physicist/engineer :P 12:00:58 Where are you chasing your paper? 12:01:07 small college 12:01:23 would rather not say where, but it's accredited and all that 12:01:34 not great, not awfu; 12:01:57 That's nice. I just did undergrad work at Harvard in Philosophy, and while it's no Penn State, in hindsight it was still too big a place for me. 12:02:08 yeah. 12:02:14 I did the big box college thing 12:02:18 didn't work too great 12:02:42 definitely better off at a smaller school 12:02:42 i kind of felt lost, while i would have done better being a little bit bigger fish in a little smaller pond :-) 12:03:08 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:03:12 Are you using scheme in your studies/ 12:03:16 Are you using scheme in your studies/? 12:03:19 I've used it 12:03:38 It's really a lovely language for what it is 12:03:48 mostly for language-style classes, like comparative languages classes and classes on compilers 12:04:16 beyond that it's up to your professor and the class as to whether you can use it 12:04:20 If we could just have one ABI that satisfied C and Scheme (with some nice object system on the Scheme), I think be could get rid of the rest of the tower of babel 12:05:08 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 12:05:16 I enjoy Haskell these days too 12:05:30 There are just so many 1) redundancies in prog languages and 2) stupid limitations in prog languages. Folks are just wasting their time in one sense on limited tools. 12:06:10 I dunno 12:06:20 Haskell is a lovely language, although I think I'd prefer a default strict language with lazy annotations instead of the other way around. i'm still working through a couple of long tutorials learning haskell 12:06:26 sometimes the redunancies and annoyances are there for a reason 12:06:54 But why does Java have GC, but it doesn't have closures? 12:07:04 different tools work better for people at different skill levels and for different tasks. 12:07:10 I agree there 12:07:14 Why does Pascal have "upward closures" but C doesn't? 12:07:23 Stuff like that. 12:07:38 well C kind of has closures now :P 12:07:45 if you use the LLVM toolset :P 12:07:48 alot of arbitrary, ad hoc design decisions infect most of the languages people use 12:07:57 yup. 12:08:33 I agree that a strict Haskell with built-in optional laziness would probably be better for most people 12:09:01 Does't fortran still use case as a kind of keyword, and with certain single letters indicating variables of certain types?!!! 12:09:16 It's a total joke, really when you think of it 12:09:19 mostly for backward compatibility reasons 12:09:31 don't pick on Fortran too much, those were the early days 12:09:50 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-28-154.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:09:50 they had an excuse at least :P 12:10:18 No that's true, but then I'll blame C for not "manning up" and fully supplanting Fortran after all these decades 12:10:21 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 12:10:33 C doesn't want to be FORTRAN 12:10:43 for one it would have to alter it's array setup 12:11:01 You know, all the optimization vs. aliasing stuff, and column vs. row major arrays 12:11:06 yeah 12:11:15 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:11:39 C could have banged out keywords to put that stuff in order decades ago and liberated generations of smart people from Fortran :-) 12:11:53 Fortress is a sort-of successor 12:12:01 not sure it's going to go anywhere 12:12:19 yeah, I wonder where it's going with Oracle buying Sun 12:12:31 I think it's been open sourced 12:12:52 I get the impression it's being left to twist in the wind, but not sure 12:13:04 oracle's not really a bad company - expensive product and aggressive sales, but they have really smart researchers and a certain kind of "IBM and MS" envy 12:13:08 I don't think Ellison puts up with such projects though 12:13:23 I didn't know they were big on research 12:14:07 i used to be an oracle head - it's a *really* fantastic product, or better said, software architecture 12:14:42 ah 12:14:57 Not trivial to learn or use, but man, it covers all the possible bases and can run like the blazes when cared for with the proper expertise 12:15:21 I looked at Oracle more from the security end originally... it has a really awful reputation in that department. 12:15:33 which has been improving lately at least. 12:15:43 I mean, Oracle's stored procedures are written with a full Ada compiler embedded in the data base kernel!!! 12:15:54 lol nice 12:16:42 The whole net thing caught any corporate network product with its pants down - networed products just weren't exposed to the public networks until the late 90's. 12:16:48 what do you think about all the distributed key-value store stuff that's come out lately 12:17:08 oh, like the Google storage thing/ 12:17:09 ? 12:17:14 I'm not a Big Data mangler 12:17:30 yes, or Amazon's, or the Hadoop thing, or etc. etc. etc. 12:17:46 seem to be variations on the basic theme 12:18:04 I don't know what to think. i mean, i've always been a DBM fan - so crank it up failsafe on big clusters and go for it :-) 12:18:11 ah 12:18:22 I mean, we're talking a hash table architecture here. 12:19:01 But for many Web apps, it may well liberate folks from storage management 12:19:05 I guess that's good. 12:20:13 But i was the guy who 1) was CEO of an 85 person consultancy and could literally install oracle, cvs, java, linux, oracle hot backup, a default schema and a little default tooning in about 45 minutes - no kidding. 12:20:38 So the idea of turning over my data (or anything else, for that matter) just doesn't agree with me. 12:20:51 Google cheats... it uses its distributed filesystem to implement its distributed hash tables 12:21:00 It's Escheric. 12:21:39 i always have my boxes custom built and store them in giant co-location centers. none of this managed hosting crap for me. i've been doing the net since jan 2 1996 and I'm really old school :-) 12:22:31 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:23:06 It took me a few years to give up "thickwire" in the early 90's and didn't adopt 10 base T until the late 90's because i just couldn't believe you could run TCP over phone cable - ha ha ha actually, it's totally true 12:23:20 lol 12:24:01 So you can imagine a quad core computers and terabyte disk drives at Best Buy is *totally* sureal for me. 12:24:11 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 12:24:19 it's a bit surreal for me when I stop to think about it. 12:24:50 i remember saving up for a 15 megabyte hard drive !!!! 12:24:51 I can emulate or virtualize every single computer I've ever owned on my current one.. AT ONC. 12:24:59 *ONCE 12:25:01 Exactly! 12:25:28 VM a C64, DOS machine, Atari ST, Amiga, Linux ..... 12:25:35 indeed 12:25:48 Hence back to the netbook 12:26:15 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:32 Fact is, excepting keyboard and screen size, we have way too much compute power and capacity to do most of the stuff we want/need to do (No, I'm not a gamer) 12:26:48 I game enough that I get the power anyway. 12:27:03 We don't need computing power, but we sure want it 12:27:17 Gaming pushes the envelope, so i like gamers 12:27:22 we don't need computers period but we sure want them :P 12:27:29 And I don't see how keyboard size has to do with compute power! 12:27:49 he means big laptops have big keyboards 12:27:55 and big screens 12:28:20 Well, stepping back, computers have become a key means of social communication. i mean, we "need" them just as much as we need jet airplanes and telephones. 12:28:29 yeah 12:28:46 the webernets 12:29:03 I just meant that netbooks are 110% *except* for screen size and keyboard comfort - that's all 12:29:32 yeah for the average person I agree 12:29:47 but they you want to virtualize or compile something and they fall a bit flat :P 12:29:56 *then you 12:30:41 I mean, i'm writing a compiler on a little lenovo laptop -PLT scheme, fasm, linker, open office. 12:31:19 you just don't need alot of power to do certain kinds (many kinds) of really fancy computing. 12:32:30 It's an X60s, so it's not a total slouch, but the noisy big honing dual fan AMD linux box across the room hasn't been turned on in many weeks - just too much noise!!! 12:32:45 honing = honking 12:34:03 It's either programmers get smarter, or computers get bigger, and since computers are designed by programmers we all know where the wagon is headed 12:34:27 it's one of those custom shop boxes with the cool clear cases and elegant slick wiring with a giant heat sink on CPU because it runs so hot. Tons of empty bays for more hard drives, blah blah blah. And i literally never use it. 12:34:27 -!- foof [n=user@FLH1Afr049.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:34:31 foof [n=user@FLH1Afr049.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 12:34:54 Don't tell anyone - i feel really horrible, but I actually threw away a Sun Workstation :-( 12:35:07 just tossed it in the garbage. 12:36:39 Supporting yet another compute architecture here at chez Scott just wasn't worth it. Maybe i could have run SETI at home on it, but then my electricity bill would have gone through the roof!!! 12:37:37 Power it with hamsters! 12:38:25 I really do look forward to many core CPU's though. One of the reasons I'm designig my language is to make multi-core use both 1) programmer controlled but 2) still fairly easy (no threads/locks/etc.) 12:40:21 I mean look at Sheme - we have (define (foo) (foo)) and let foo in (foo) and do ((foo 0 (1 + foo) and (letrec ((foo)....) 12:40:58 We have a ton of similar control constructs, and we are GLAD we do. Each is a little handier for something or other. 12:41:14 I want to do the same for concurrency in a programming language. 12:41:51 i want to offer a family of relatively easy to use IDIOMS that can each be used in its own easy, idiomatic way. 12:42:45 Personally, i think all of this pure functional language design and transactional memory research is going to general ALOT more PhD's than real productive software 12:43:10 And no, I'm no luddite :-) I like research in general. 12:44:09 But look at Unix pipes running on a a giant Sun box with hot swap boards in a backplane, each holding something like 28 cpus a piece. 12:44:20 I think transactional may get hardware support 12:44:31 in which case, look out. 12:44:51 Now, a long unix pipeline - say formatting a giant troff document with tons of macro packages (pic, tbl, etc.) is going to RUN LIKE BLAZES 12:45:37 But why don't we have a simple process/pipes model *WITHIN* our programming languages????? 12:46:40 The most successful "software reuse" model in history by far - the unix filter/pipe - is not included in the very programming languages that all hype up their potential for software reuse - it's a TOTAL JOKE. 12:47:09 Um, #haskell is two rooms left 12:47:18 They suck at the implementation, though 12:47:48 Adamant: yes, hard to predict hardware architecture changes. 12:48:54 But then, alot of hardware innovations have basically been DOA - old enough to remember "bubble memory"??? Ha ha 12:49:08 yeah 12:52:34 Anyway, i hate to say it, but for what it was designed for, C is a really fantastic language. Even more so the smaller C of old. C was actually *for* something. Not my cup of tea, but dBase was the same way until Ashton Tate imploded. It was *for* something and people really liked it. Too many programming languages are just *for* reasearch grants, PhDs and the occasional marketing effort (few make any real money selling prog lang 12:54:11 Hence the success of Perl and Python - they are FOR something. Perl is a reasonably programmable bash with strong string handling and Python is pretty much the ultimate, flexible dynamic "scripting language". 12:55:03 While i'm learning Haskell because it's pretty much the sandbox of modern type theory, what in the hell is Haskell really *FOR* ????? 12:55:54 i can't think of a single problem right now for which haskell is the obvious solution - that's pretty pathetic 12:56:45 doing something multicore 12:56:46 So you believe programming languages should solve existing problems, foremost 12:57:02 it really is pretty good at that at this point. 12:57:04 (By the way, Haskell is pretty good on the shootouts now) 12:57:10 yes 12:57:13 Nah, I'm more than willing to keep an eye on the future 12:57:34 We all should hope that some new tool allows us to tackle a new set of problems. 12:57:57 I think people thought prolog and expert systems were going to be like that 12:58:46 and they could have been if they weren't so hyped and if a bodies of real expertise were allowed to "pool" to fill in these inference engines 12:59:06 But anyway, yeah - i believe in progress :-) 12:59:13 Well, culture is culture. Prolog is still a nice language, and it isn't its own fault 12:59:23 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-98-182.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:44 AFAIK, Haskell puts strict annotations all over its shoot out entries and otherwise has a pretty decent set of optimizations at the low level code/register allocation level. Not bad, but not what the typical user is going to get passing lazy "thunks" around all the time. 13:01:38 Sure, I'm not faulting the tech - i'm faulting the adoption in the particular case of "inferencing technologies" 13:02:47 Scheme is a really interesting language, becaues its really a delisped lisp 13:03:16 i mean, Lisp is still all about symbols and plists and 'packages' of symbols 13:03:31 Lisp compilers do type inference too. 13:03:47 While Scheme still has a symbol data type, scheme is alot more like a very logical, latently typed Pascal :-) 13:04:37 I don't think it's a coincidence that Scheme and Pascal are two languages that in the past pretty much dominated intro comp sci classes. 13:05:42 Excepting may the whacky macrology, Scheme, like Pascal, is a language completely devoid of any mystery. 13:06:06 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 13:06:44 If anything, with its "full" numeric tower, Scheme behavior is is many ways more predictable than Pascal when it comes to numeric computing. 13:10:11 People "out there" seem to think that Scheme is so exotic and "for expert wizards" when really the exact oposite is the truth - Scheme is just more or less a notation for safe but otherwise unfettered computation - plain and simple. One of the simplest languages in the world at its core (say defined by a family of minimal register machines) 13:11:30 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 13:11:53 Wow, i might finally crash - thank God. Ciao for now and best of luck in all your endeavors. 13:12:46 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:52 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-76-114-212-247.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:13:08 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 13:15:44 .oO( scheme zealot ) 13:15:49 Oh crap, wrong channel 13:15:53 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has left #scheme 13:24:17 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:26:35 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:36:52 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-155-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:37:47 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:38:53 leppie are you from .za? 13:39:01 yes, I am 13:39:26 nice :) 13:39:34 sometimes 13:39:43 *wingo-pi* lived for a couple of years in namibia -- but on the border with angola. fairly far away. 13:39:58 during the war time? 13:40:12 no, just a few years ago 13:40:22 savimbi had just died 13:40:29 ahh 13:40:34 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:40:52 I still recall fearing having to be called up to the army round about 93 13:41:02 but then things started settling down 13:41:12 especially after 94 with mandela's release 13:46:58 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:48:32 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:58 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 13:53:17 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:55:46 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:16:50 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.241.145] has joined #scheme 14:19:48 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:27:26 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #scheme 14:28:28 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:28:40 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 14:39:17 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:40:53 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:43:08 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.119.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:44:46 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 14:53:42 schemer999_ [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:53:42 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:01 -!- schemer999_ is now known as schemer999 14:54:49 schemer999_ [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:55:11 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:11 -!- schemer999_ is now known as schemer999 15:11:54 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #scheme 15:12:38 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:17:48 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 15:25:29 Summermute [n=scott@c-76-114-212-247.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:27:27 Just wondering, do any scheme environments have a concept of a "project" ? 15:28:43 Gambit? Chicken? Chez? Kawa? SISC? 15:30:22 jpiche [n=jpiche@ip67-88-181-66.z181-88-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #scheme 15:31:02 jazz 15:31:17 bweaver [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:31:20 perhaps, perhaps not, perhaps. 15:31:27 Really? Haven't looked at that one in a while 15:32:01 it's goowee/ide environment on top of gambit. 15:32:31 Wow, looks pretty darn slick 15:32:59 What are the ins/outs of running jazz/gambit on Windows and Mac? 15:33:35 Hmm, just noted that screen shots I'm looking at right now are windoze - so that's a good sign 15:33:54 i dunno. i'm on linux. but it was developed on windows first and later ported to Xwin... not sure about mac at all. 15:33:59 Any downsides to Gambit vs. other schemes? 15:34:36 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:16 Summermute: There must be some. 15:35:42 Install looks a little hairy, but not insurmountable. 15:36:47 Hmm, actually, reading the install in detail, it seems to presuppose some knowledge of Gambit that I certainly don't have. 15:38:24 incubot: tik tak tik tak tik tak 15:38:25 In fact, they mention various 'experienced problem' and offer no deterministically successful install path at all - kind of lame, really 15:39:12 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:04 More I read, the more it looks like total amateur hour when it comes to packaging, documenting, versioning software and so on. 15:44:57 Really a pity, the screen shots look so promising!!!! 15:48:57 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:56 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.241.145] has quit [] 15:56:25 shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #scheme 15:58:04 cadadr works but cdadadr or caadadr doesn't when called with (list 1 (list 2 (list 3 (list 4 5)))).. c{a/d}r is defined only upto that? or is that something else?:) 15:58:42 Only four levels are provided. 15:58:58 ok.. 15:59:02 not 5? 15:59:12 lol I cant recall :p 15:59:15 Oh, I think I'm quoting r5 15:59:57 i am using mit/gnu scheme 7.7.90 16:00:13 Kind of silly if you ask me. You either make a special rule that allows any depth, or you don't have compound cadrs 16:00:17 ah right Jafet :p 16:01:13 crazy talk. 16:02:06 :) 16:07:21 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 16:11:11 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:27:19 -!- ASau [n=user@host220-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 16:32:15 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 16:40:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-hliqjgqvbmzhkfcb] has joined #scheme 16:41:45 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:31 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.166.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:34 -!- shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 16:46:26 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:46:38 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 16:55:49 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has 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18:39:15 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:43:15 seamus_android [n=alistair@92.24.129.231] has joined #scheme 18:43:33 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:48:44 -!- jpiche [n=jpiche@ip67-88-181-66.z181-88-67.customer.algx.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:00:18 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 19:03:51 -!- seamus_android [n=alistair@92.24.129.231] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:07 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:15:34 wingo [n=wingo@161.Red-81-39-162.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:15:57 'lo 19:16:09 -!- SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:09 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 19:18:46 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:29:26 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:33:14 karme [n=user@kallisto.karme.de] has joined #scheme 19:36:41 saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:46:20 Some folks were discussing literate programming earlier. I maintain what I wrote in about it: `Literate programming' is the logical conclusion of languages incapable of explaining themselves; it is a direct concession of the inexpressiveness of the computer language implementing the program, to the extent that the only way a human can understand the program is by having it rewritte 19:46:48 by having it rewritte 19:46:55 ...rewritten in a human language. 19:47:15 Sounds reasonable. 19:49:02 Well, MMIX isn't exactly self-explanatory 19:49:27 And it is thoroughly inappropriate for writing most programs. 19:50:03 But Knuth didn't just present his algorithms in MMIX. 19:50:10 Approaching the problem by writing MMIX with literate programming, rather than by choosing a more expressive language, is the completely wrong-headed approach. 19:50:10 Next up: literate flowcharts! 19:51:24 He doesn't seem to have formulated a public opinion on lisp 19:52:15 -!- karme [n=user@kallisto.karme.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:41 *wingo* marks Riastradh's doc for later reading. 19:58:05 -!- wingo [n=wingo@161.Red-81-39-162.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:10 wingo [n=wingo@79.156.146.159] has joined #scheme 20:09:04 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #scheme 20:10:53 good evening jcowan. 20:11:04 Good afternoon. 20:11:18 *jcowan* belatedly unvanishes. 20:11:34 *gnomon* varnishes jcowan 20:11:50 *jcowan* waxes Roth 20:12:31 *mario-goulart* watches beavis & butthead 20:12:50 hehehe, cool, hehehehe 20:14:01 :) 20:15:30 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:00 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:24 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 20:26:53 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.guile.devel/9214 20:30:39 i cannot claim i understand it, but it looks nice. 20:31:21 dmaclay [n=opera@dsl-245-151-07.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:35:28 -!- dmaclay [n=opera@dsl-245-151-07.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #scheme 20:36:20 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:37:41 Riastradh: Even if you're right, I think it's a bit hard on Knuth who really did at the time have a different idea of what a "software program" was supposed to be. 20:40:05 gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #scheme 20:44:02 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:45:58 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:28 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:34 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 20:59:14 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:54 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 21:11:37 SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 21:13:36 -!- ratelle [n=jeremie@x-132-204-240-66.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #scheme 21:13:51 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 21:18:31 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:28:48 perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #scheme 21:34:14 -!- untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:35:09 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has joined #scheme 21:44:27 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:14 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:52:16 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055CCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:53:16 sebaseba_ [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has joined #scheme 21:53:22 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:53:30 -!- sebaseba_ is now known as sebaseba 21:54:36 schmir [n=schmir@p54A90306.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:05:13 untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 22:06:04 gaze_ [n=gaze@169.231.36.86] has joined #scheme 22:07:29 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:46 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 22:17:28 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:22:28 la la la 22:22:32 *wingo* looks for duncanm 22:24:11 DUM de dum 22:24:40 gromfa gromfa glamfa glamfa aerfa aerfa 22:25:26 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 22:25:40 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 22:25:46 jcowan: congrats 22:27:23 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:32:58 *mbishop* looks around nervously 22:34:28 run, mbishop! they're looking for you! 22:35:15 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:27 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has joined #scheme 22:35:43 did jcowan win a beauty contest? 22:35:54 something of the sort 22:35:56 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:36:24 *foof* is however somewhat nervous that both working group chairs are google employees 22:37:04 ah yes. 22:40:11 -!- saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:41:53 Schoogle 22:42:46 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:44:24 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:31 Cheery [n=cheery@a88-113-54-156.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:44:56 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:57 hi 22:45:01 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has joined #scheme 22:45:29 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:16 -!- bweaver [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:47:07 I'm writing a DFA in scheme, would need to figure out which state becomes next and whether it must be ignored, used or whether it is an error. 22:47:25 planning to write those by defining functions 22:47:30 arcfide [i=arcfide@140-182-227-157.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 22:47:41 Hey all, anyone up for an algorithm question? 22:47:44 the trouble is 'case' -function isn't flexible enough for doing this. 22:48:18 so asking which other ways do I have to do it so that there's a function representing state. 22:48:21 arcfide: sure 22:48:26 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:49:30 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:36 Is there some faster way to do string matching against a set of target strings and a single pattern in better than O(N * S) where N is the length of the target strings and S is the number of target strings? 22:50:59 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:04 arcfide: rainbow trees? 22:51:06 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has joined #scheme 22:51:11 not sure if it applies directly tho 22:51:12 A DFA would be linear in the input, regardless of the lengths of the target strings (thought it could short-circuit on failure). 22:51:12 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:51:20 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:26 s/thought/though 22:51:27 foof: Linear how? 22:51:36 Oh, right. 22:51:41 You mean, O(S)? 22:52:14 rainbow tables, rather. 22:52:44 probably not applicable. 22:52:45 foof: My Algorithms book tells me that string matching using an FA is O(n) in the length of the text. 22:52:46 Oh wait, your terminology confused me. Usually target == pattern. 22:53:10 foof: Sorry, yeah, target == text. 22:53:14 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:53:36 And if you have multiple _patterns_ you can use a DFA to match a single text linearly. 22:54:11 Ooh, yeah, no. :-) Hehe, I have a single pattern, multiple texts. 22:55:01 Maybe framing the real problem in a different way might help with an alternative approach. 22:55:02 Well, you can't avoid looking at the characters in each text, so the basic algorithms will be O(NS). 22:55:14 ... although concepts like Boyer-Moore can be applied to DFAs. 22:55:15 Best solution to the 'bool cube' is to just make #f false, #t and all other values illegal. A real compiler is jumping on a flag following comparison anyway. Or maybe I'm just in a bad mood because i'm a committed low 2 bit tag buy :-) 22:55:28 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:41 I'm trying to get a structure that works sort of like a hashtable with s-expressions as the keys. 22:55:41 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:48 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:55:50 anyone knows about a function/macro that'd work better for implementing finite state automatons than case? 22:55:51 However.... 22:56:06 well.. I could use cond... but. 22:56:27 or wait.. perhaps that's good idea after all. 22:56:39 Cheery: google for swine before perl, perhaps? 22:56:41 at least for this purpose. 22:56:42 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:56:50 If the exact match or s-expression does not exist in the table, I want the retrieval procedure to return the "closest" match, defined by the minimization of the number of insertions, deletions, and substitutions necessary to make the input s-expression be the retrieved s-expression. 22:57:27 arcfide: how do you go from string matching to a hash of s-expr's ? (real question) 22:57:28 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:57:40 Summermute: It's not a hash. 22:58:09 Sorry, just to quote: " sort of like a hashtable with s-expressions as the keys" 22:58:22 Summermute: An s-expression can be flattened into a list of symbols given a special "pair" token symbol such that you can construct the original s-expression. 22:58:30 Summermute: See the explaination of the difference right after that. 22:58:54 Summermute: That list of symbols can be treated like a string. 23:00:07 Well, yes - you could simply match a lightning fast DFA against a uniform (print wise) textual representation of the s-exprs 23:00:24 That's doesn't get you to the "closest match" though by a long shot. 23:00:55 Summermute: No, but there is plenty of work that has been done on string distances. 23:01:38 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit ["off"] 23:01:44 For the latter, i'd look at the large body of literature/algorithms on computing the minimal "diff" between two files - used to be a real hot topic of research back in the day :-) 23:02:44 I wouldn't be surprised if the two areas of research/algorithms didn't overlap quite a bit. 23:03:58 I think a major question is whether or not you are matching S1 ~ S2 or matching a pattern against a (conceptual) string P1 ~ S1 23:05:27 For my purposes, it's pretty much an S <=> S comparison. 23:05:42 Aside from the trivial case where any literal can be represented as a DFA pattern, the "closest" computation is going to be very, very different int the two cases. 23:07:05 Well, have a peek here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenshtein_distance#The_algorithm 23:09:19 Once a DFA is built, they are so blazingly fast to match against, you could well look for exact matches and then fall back on the shortest Levenshtein distance style search. 23:10:53 BTW, thanks for incenting me to look up Levenshtein distance stuff - really interesting, and just coincidentally, i'll likely be computing minimal file diffs in the very near future. 23:12:27 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:16:57 Anyone follow the "project" mgmt concept for PLT on the mailing list? 23:17:16 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A90306.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:18:50 arcfide: Did that algorithm (or the linked Hamming distance algorithm) help any? 23:19:04 -!- SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:41 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 23:21:29 I'm still reading them, I had meant to get to those algorithms, and it looks like they might work. 23:22:21 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:23:39 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:29:22 -!- Cheery [n=cheery@a88-113-54-156.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:30:30 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:35:07 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit ["A cow. A trampoline. Together they fight crime!"] 23:37:04 One thing i noticed is that the algorithm works on any sequence of symbols, so strings aren't the only option. one could "flatten" an s-expr into a vector where everything, including parens, are considered symbols. My suspicions is that strings would be faster though ;-) 23:37:34 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:48 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 23:41:35 -!- wingo [n=wingo@79.156.146.159] has quit [No route to host] 23:45:32 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme