00:08:17 <Leonidas> arcfide: I would *love* to have a DrScheme menu item called "post to paste.lisp.org" :)
00:09:01 <Leonidas> but afair you don't use PLT, so this is left as an exercise to the reader...
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00:09:45 <arcfide> Leonidas: I'll write the client in a style that I am sure would work in PLT Scheme. :-) PLT Scheme already has an XML RPC library.
00:09:51 <arcfide> It wouldn't be hard to add this in.
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00:10:29 <Leonidas> arcfide: probably not, although I have no idea how to extend the gui of mred.
00:10:41 <Leonidas> btw, the python code is quite horrible.
00:10:56 <Leonidas> no, wait, it is horrible
00:13:28 <arcfide> I have to say that I haven't seen much *good* python code out there, though I am sure you can do it.
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00:17:20 <synx> It's possible to make good python code, though not possible to prevent all the memory leaks and underlying compiler bugs. Making good asynchronous python code though, now that is impossible.
00:27:07 <Leonidas> arcfide: for examples of good python code, see Werkzeug/Sphinx/Pygments. Definitely not the python stdlib :)
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00:47:56 <rouslan> This is strange - for some reason "(define (f) 10)" is considered to be illegal in HTDP.
00:48:25 <rouslan> Even though it's a perfectly legal function definition (which has null arity and simply returns 10).
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00:50:09 <arcfide> rouslan: HtDP is a subset of the syntax available for use.
00:51:25 <rouslan> I see, so it simplifies Scheme for pedagogical purposes.
00:52:26 <rouslan> What should I study after HTDP, assuming I'm interested in studying theoretical CS in college?
00:53:00 <rouslan> Some people have recommended PCL and then PAIP, but I'm concerned that the former is very practical.
00:53:56 <rouslan> And what about SICP?
00:56:19 <Osaka> PAIP is very popular in _certain circles_
00:56:41 <rouslan> Would it be very useful for learning AI?
00:57:06 <Osaka> For the most part
00:57:33 <Osaka> And the 2nd part of Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach by Peter Norvig
00:58:03 <Osaka> But don't mind me
00:58:46 <rouslan> Ok, thanks.
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01:33:28 <optimizer> how important are continuations?
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01:33:39 <optimizer> i actually don't find myself using things like non-deterministic search too much
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01:34:36 <kilimanjaro> On a scale of 1 to 10, I rate the importance of continuations as 'orange'.
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01:49:32 <offby1> optimizer: if you mean "how important is it that I understand continuations", I'd say "kinda"
01:50:09 <optimizer> i mean how important that I use continuations
01:50:16 <optimizer> like if I have a langauge that is everything I want
01:50:19 <optimizer> but continuations are really slow
01:50:40 <optimizer> i'm struggling to think of scenarios where I absolutely must have continuations
02:01:36 <sladegen> you need it to impress your girlfriend.
02:03:33 <offby1> optimizer: I wouldn't worry about it.
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02:04:11 <offby1> optimizer: scheme makes continuations first-class objects; I suspect that's of more use to people hacking the language itself, than to people writing apps.
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02:07:08 <synx> continuations allow you to completely ignore them while other people write code that works effectively and fast. They're like python deferreds, but invisible and awesome.
02:08:43 <synx> I mostly overall take advantage of escape continuations, and threads, not much else. Continuations are supposedly helpful for making the equivalent to a python generator, but I've never seen that as being really useful.
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02:19:11 <arcfide> I've used continuations for all sorts of things.
02:19:27 <arcfide> Most recently, for backtracking in a search algorithm.
02:19:50 <arcfide> And continuations don't have to be that slow.
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02:24:28 <offby1> someone needs to write a "continuations for the app developer" doc
02:24:56 <arcfide> Hahah.
02:26:42 <sladegen> "continuations for procrastinators" ftw!
02:27:34 <arcfide> Wohoo! Authorize.NET Payment processing in Scheme! It's actually passing its tests. :-D
02:28:12 <arcfide> And what kind of stupid gateway can't handle whitespace in the contents? :-/
02:28:34 <arcfide> Whitespace in the XML tag contents: <tag>works</tag> <tag>   doesn't </tag.
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02:46:50 <Riastradh> I think I see why the second one doesn't work, arcfide!
02:46:59 <Riastradh> You omitted the closing angle bracket, you see.
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02:47:39 <arcfide> >_<
02:47:42 <arcfide> Um....
02:47:45 <arcfide> Yeah, typo.
02:47:47 <arcfide> ;-)
02:48:01 *arcfide* gives Riastradh a gold star.
02:49:23 <foof> For excellence in mathematics?
02:49:36 <arcfide> foof: For excellence in pedantry.
02:50:32 <arcfide> Can anyone tell me what #\xFEFF is? I mean, does it have some standard use?
02:50:45 <arcfide> SRFI :13 (R6RS) chokes on it. :-)
02:52:32 <Riastradh> Byte order marker?
02:53:48 <foof> It's a small piece of insanity brought on to us by people who thought utf-16 was an appropriate storage encoding.
02:54:18 <Riastradh> It matters for UTF-32 too.
02:55:03 <foof> Yes, but UTF-32 is much less common as an external encoding.
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03:56:09 -!- names: duncanm nothere m811 chandler z0d acieroid Kusanagi tarbo REPLeffect hosh tltstc roderic elf ineiros samth_away jay-mccarthy mornfall ponzao__1 ski michaelw Chris nasloc__ rotty clog Khisanth joast Axioplase tabe`` klutometis erg charleyb jyujin eli Elly makmanalp qebab j0ni saccade_ rmrfchik felipe specbot minion rapacity dlouhy Riastradh Leonidas StucKman p1dzkl ecraven r0bby brx poucet certainty TimMc kazzmir C-Keen linas guenthr Armageddon00 
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04:21:38 -!- names: snorble nothere m811 chandler z0d acieroid Kusanagi tarbo REPLeffect hosh tltstc roderic ineiros samth_away jay-mccarthy ponzao__1 michaelw Chris nasloc__ rotty Khisanth joast tabe`` klutometis erg charleyb jyujin eli Elly makmanalp qebab j0ni saccade_ felipe specbot minion rapacity Riastradh Leonidas StucKman p1dzkl r0bby brx zbigniew nicktastic Armageddon00 guenthr linas C-Keen kazzmir TimMc certainty poucet 
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04:22:52 <jcowan> Can anyone fathom what the C math function "remquo" does?
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04:22:59 <jcowan> Or, rather, what you'd want it for?
04:23:00 <caoliver> I tend to use audacious for that sort of thing, but it's more of a pain to install.
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04:23:42 <jcowan> It returns the (round-)remainder of two doubles as its primary value, but also returns an implementation-defined number of the low-order bits of the quotient, at least 3.
04:23:44 <jcowan> Why????
04:24:41 <jcowan> Ah, I see.
04:25:28 <jcowan> "remquo() is a specialised function typically used for range reduction of the argument in circular functions. Only the low-order k bits of the quotient are stored, k being implementation-defined (but at least 3) in the POSIX standard. These bits serve to indicate which quadrant, or octant, the argument lies in."
04:26:04 <Jafet> Nice name
04:26:24 <jcowan> Not.
04:26:42 <jcowan> People expect it to return the remainder and the quotient, and it doesn't.  That's another function (fmod? modf? I forget)
04:26:50 <Jafet> Like Banquo
04:26:54 <jcowan> Ah.
04:26:55 <jcowan> Yes.
04:27:07 <Jafet> Back to haunt unsuspecting hackers
04:28:48 <jcowan> Banquo's a strange name too.
04:30:17 *jcowan* wonders if he should expose remquo in Flopsy, and if so, what more reasonable name it could have.
04:30:36 <jcowan> I already have ROUND-REMAINDER, so it's the quotient bits ... naah.
04:30:41 <jcowan> Flopsy doesn't have multiple values anyhow.
04:30:57 <Jafet> remquo?!, which indicates that you must read the manual first
04:31:04 *jcowan* laughs.
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04:32:42 <jcowan> I find values of k = 3, 7, 24, and 31 in various implementations.
04:33:13 <jcowan> And yeah, modf is truncate-remainder, whereas fmod returns the fractional part of a double.
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04:47:18 <synx> arrgh
04:48:01 <synx> is there some reason why subprocess won't take a TCP input port as standard input, or are we just being anal about it?
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04:51:40 <offby1> maybe it wants an output port?  I always forget which is which
04:51:50 <offby1> you're talking about PLT?
04:55:01 <synx> Yeah...
04:55:35 <synx> It wants a file-stream-input-port, which is (and (file-stream-port? port) (input-port? port)).
04:55:41 <offby1> huh
04:55:47 <offby1> maybe it's planning on seekig
04:55:49 <offby1> seeking
04:55:55 <synx> And of course thanks to Microsoft, TCP sockets don't count as file-stream-ports...
04:56:03 <synx> No, pipes work fine. Just not sockets.
04:56:06 <offby1> I wouldn't think that's Microsoft's fault
04:57:44 <synx> Well, their operating system is the first one I know that treated the two with different interfaces.
04:58:10 <synx> Winsocks, and the LF vs CRLF incompatibility are what really tick me off about the company.
05:01:12 <synx> They also require you to concatenate your command line arguments together with space separators before invoking a subprocess. It only takes such an encoded string, decoding it internally, but not any sort of list of arguments.
05:02:25 <synx> ...but PLT handles that transparently. It seems not so lenient with standard input and output though.
05:04:04 <Riastradh> Gee, if winsock and CRLFs are all that bother you about Microsoft...
05:05:45 <foof> What are "win" socks?  Are those like power ties for the feet?
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05:10:28 <sladegen> win-re-boots came complementary...
05:11:41 <synx> Riastradh: Yup, that's pretty much it. OH WAIT
05:11:53 <synx> I forgot DirectX!
05:12:45 <synx> CRLF delimiters, Winsocks, and DirectX. That's the full list, yup. Yessirree..
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05:42:15 <jcowan> synx: sockets aren't files on Posix either, it's just that you can read() and write() them.
05:42:23 <jcowan> Most file operations, including open(), do not work on sockets.
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05:46:06 <synx> well, yes but dup2 works on them, so that's all you really need to spawn a subprocess with them on standard input and output.
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09:07:30 <Leonidas> eli: I'm thinking about implementing conways game of life using scheme/match, but it does not seem to support complex patterns. Or does it.
09:08:05 <StucKman> what do you mean, 'complex patterns'?
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09:11:47 <Leonidas> StucKman: well, I would apply match on every cell, so the patterns would look like (match current-cell [(has-three-live-neighbors current-cell) 'live])
09:12:40 <Leonidas> and I don't know whether match supports something like this
09:12:48 <Leonidas> maybe I should just use COND.
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09:23:14 <StucKman> Leonidas: sorry, the implementation I use doesn't have match
09:45:46 <Leonidas> StucKman: yep, that's PLT Scheme specific. I am thinking of ways how this could be useful.
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10:16:50 <leppie|work> StucKman: are you trying to port the one from Clojure?
10:19:08 <StucKman> leppie|work: no, I was just answering leppie|work
10:19:12 <StucKman> ... Leonidas
10:20:00 <leppie|work> ah ok, as it looks similar to what you are doing
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10:20:14 <StucKman> leppie|work: I'm not doing anything!
10:20:21 <leppie|work> I was trying that as well, but didnt get very far, some of Clojure's syntax is a bit weird
10:20:29 <StucKman> (besides implementing soap, but that's another story)
10:20:44 <leppie|work> Ahh, its Leonidas :)
10:20:48 <leppie|work> sorry
10:21:26 <StucKman> leppie|work: it's too early in the morning, np :-P
10:21:43 <leppie|work> afternoon here already
10:22:39 <StucKman> yeah, here too, but didn't get my coffee yet :-P
10:22:46 <StucKman> s/get/had/
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10:44:53 <eli> Leonidas: it's possible to do that:
10:44:57 <eli> rudybot: eval (match 3 [(? odd?) 'yes] [else 'no])
10:44:58 <rudybot> eli: your scheme sandbox is ready
10:44:59 <rudybot> eli: ; Value: yes
10:45:23 <eli> Leonidas: but if you're doing these things then there's no real point in using `match' over `cond'.
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11:13:25 <Leonidas> eli: yep, good to have it confirmed :)
11:14:22 <Leonidas> by the way, what would be the best way to represend a game of life board? A list of nested lists with atoms inside? or a long list with atoms? Or maybe something completely different?
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11:21:38 <Jafet> I defer to Gosper.
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11:37:38 <leppie|work> Leonidas: a multi-dimensional array/vector sounds like a good choice, but dunno if PLT has that
11:38:56 <eli> It would be easy to implement (and there's probably 5 srfis), but probably not the fastest.
11:39:15 <Jafet> Hashlife is the fastest for "interesting" patterns
11:39:31 <Jafet> It might need some GC control, though
11:39:44 <sladegen> by golly!
11:39:56 <Jafet> Heaps of fun.
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12:00:27 <Leonidas> leppie|work: yep, that's what I thought, too. Will take a look into the SRFIs.
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12:02:51 <Leonidas> SRFI 25 looks good, PLT has support for that one, too.
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12:48:03 <Silex> hello
12:48:13 <Silex> what would this snippet of code do?
12:48:15 <Silex> (define (eval exp env)  (cond ((self-evaluating? exp) exp)  ((variable? exp) (lookup-variable-value exp env))  ((quoted? exp) (text-of-quotation exp))  ((assignment? exp) (eval-assignment exp env))  ((definition? exp) (eval-definition exp env))  ((if? exp) (eval-if exp env))  ((lambda? exp)  (make-procedure (lambda-parameters exp)  (lambda-body exp)  env))  ((begin? exp)   (eval-sequence (begin-actions exp) env))  ((cond? exp) (eval (cond->if exp) env))  ((app
12:48:15 <Silex> lication? exp)  (apply (eval (operator exp) env)  (list-of-values (operands exp) env)))  (else  (error "Common Lisp or Netscape Navigator 4.0+ Required" exp))))
12:48:21 <Silex> oops, longer paste than expected, sorry
12:48:50 <Silex> http://codepad.org/VQnC1Wa9
12:49:03 <Silex> this is from today's xkcd, wondered what it does :)
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12:55:22 <mario-goulart> Silex: it's a simple interpreter that tells you need "Common Lisp or Netscape Navigator 4.0+" when it doesn't know what to do.
12:55:55 <Silex> oh, thanks! what does it when it knows what to do?
12:56:07 <Silex> does it do*
12:57:42 <mario-goulart> It evaluates the given expression (the first argument) into the given environment (the second argument).
12:57:52 <Silex> aight, cheers!
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13:34:25 <segoe> hi
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14:27:57 <foof> lol xkcd :)
14:29:51 <leppie> bad flashbacks :)
14:29:58 <leppie> of 1993
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15:48:00 <Leonidas> is there a variant of array-set! (srfi 25) that does not mutate the original array but returns a  modified copy?
15:49:22 <gnomon> eek
15:49:27 <chandler> It seems to me that if you're doing that sort of thing, you'd be better off with a different data structure.
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16:33:31 <Leonidas> gnomon: alternatively, I could add "patches" to the original array, so the array stays the same and the accessors check the patches first, before doing a lookup in the array.
16:34:11 <Leonidas> and after some patches, I could create a copy and integrate the patches into the array, so the game can start anew.
16:34:34 <Leonidas> or, well, a different data structure :) Maybe a hash would work as well.
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18:49:43 <kanak> Hi. Does anyone have a copy of John Small's "Learn Scheme Now" online book? The domain seems to have expired on the original link (http://www.rogare.com/downloads/scheme/lsnow.pdf)
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18:57:38 <XTL> Hmm
18:58:22 <C-Keen> http://web.archive.org/web/20061017184836/http://www.rogare.com/downloads/scheme/lsnow.pdf
18:58:25 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ygovm24
18:58:38 <C-Keen> oh sorry
18:58:46 <C-Keen> I still had it in my cache obviously
18:58:58 <chandler> Well, save it!
18:59:10 <XTL> Seems I don't
18:59:17 <XTL> I don't think it was a very good book?
18:59:51 <gnomon> It was unfinished, wasn't it?
19:00:24 <XTL> Might be
19:03:15 <kanak> I'm only interested because someone claimed it had a good section on macros. Could you suggest alternative resources (suitable for a macro newbie)?
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19:09:25 <gnomon> http://www.xs4all.nl/~hipster/lib/scheme/gauche/define-syntax-primer.txt ?
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19:11:30 <foof> gnomon: You hadn't seen that before?
19:11:53 <gnomon> foof, I've seen the article before, but I don't know if it was along the lines of what kanak was seeking.
19:11:55 <foof> oh, nm
19:12:12 <foof> read that out of context of kanak's question
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19:39:36 <Summermute66> Any typed-scheme users on the list?
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19:41:56 <Summermute66> Just wondering if there were any plans to get PLT's (for style generators/comprehensions to work with typed-scheme.  For that matter, a  typed-scheme friendly version of of SRFI-42 would probably do just as well.
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19:50:02 <jonrafkind> on what list? you mean in this irc channel?
19:54:22 <gnomon> I think he meant on-vector.
19:57:40 <Summermute66> Whoops, did i mistakenly stumble onto the WizardsWaverlyPlace channel :-)
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20:00:09 <Summermute66> Boy, #scheme sure is quiet today. Did all the kids actually do their homework over the weekend ;-)
20:00:24 <arcfide> I haven't seen a homework question in a while, actually. I kind of miss them.
20:00:34 <arcfide> They were easier than standards lawyering.
20:00:53 <arcfide> And probably more productive.
20:01:30 <Summermute66> Know what you meant - unlike real life, you knew when you you were all done with a homework assignment. "All done" in real life is almost never pretty and usually tragic.
20:03:10 <C-Keen> probably everyone who needs to ask homework question is flunked out of the freshman courses by now
20:04:53 <gnomon> arcfide, I kind of miss them too!
20:06:13 <arcfide> Summermute66: The homework assignments that I have nowadays aren't done either. They're research projects, and they have almost no intermediate deadlines and almost no real sense of when they are done. This makes for some interesting homework!
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20:22:24 <TauPan> hi... am I the 1000th person to point out today's xkcd html source to you?
20:24:44 <gnomon> "Common Lisp or Netscape Navigator 4.0+ Required"?
20:24:48 <copumpkin> hah, I hadn't noticed that
20:24:59 <copumpkin> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE='SCHEME'>
20:25:26 <TauPan> exactly ;)
20:25:38 <TauPan> apparently I'm not the 1000th person then
20:25:56 <copumpkin> maybe I just didn't pay attention to the other 999 :)
20:26:59 <TauPan> the script language="qbasic" part is also funny
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20:33:32 <Summermute66> Just an informal poll - how many folks on the list frequently use some kind of of iterations/comprehensions facillity like SRFI-42, PLT's "for iterations" offering or the oodles of alternatives probably offered by other Scheme implementations?
20:36:17 <arcfide> Summermute66: I regularly use foof loop.
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20:43:06 <arcfide> Summermute66: Why do you ask?
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20:49:15 <schoppenhauer> hello. how can I trace function calls using mzscheme? i used (require trace) but there is no function "trace".
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20:50:39 <Summermute66> We'll, given a language with (do...) historically and named let, letrec and other iterative constructs used for loops, I'm very curious from a language design point of view how (quickly) popular a feature like iterators/generators/comprehensions might become in Scheme.
20:50:44 <Summermute66> Make sense?
20:51:42 <jlongster> lisppaste: url
20:51:42 <lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste.
20:51:45 <Summermute66> Edit: should have said "recursive constructs used for loops..." above
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20:55:09 <Summermute66> I mean, genuflecting to Scheme's elegance, the purist equivalent of  (for [x (in-range ....  is pretty verbose - more so adding parallel loops, conditionals short circuiting or otherwise, etc.
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20:56:12 <Summermute66> Basically, it seems that in various parts of the Scheme world were, dare i say it, inching toward the Bethlehem of the dreaded Lisp LOOP macro ;-)
20:56:34 <jonrafkind> the for stuff in plt-scheme is olin shiver's loop macro
20:56:45 <Summermute66> arcfide: BTW, what is "foof loop" ?
20:57:42 <Summermute66> jonrafkind: aha, thanks for the historical info. Does his loop work show up in other (scheme) places?
20:58:05 <jonrafkind> i saw his presentation (on google video) about it but I don't know of other implemetnations
20:58:41 <jonrafkind> but I only use plt-scheme so I'm sure its used somewhere else too
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20:59:56 <Summermute66> I'd love to play with gambit and larceny, but PLT is so feature rich, has nice libraries, a great user community to ask questions....  Yeah, I pretty much use it exclusively as well.
21:01:26 <Summermute66> My only real wishes are 1) full co-equal support for typed-scheme and 2) a really kick ass whole program optimizing compiler for final application delivery. A man can dream.....
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21:02:19 <arcfide> Summermute66: Typed Scheme....heh.
21:02:29 <arcfide> Summermute66: foof loop is Riastradh's looping macro inspired by foof.
21:02:33 <arcfide> Summermute66: It's quite good.
21:03:13 <arcfide> Summermute66: You should take a look at <http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/foof-loop.txt>, but it also has a comprehensions extension written for it called nested foof loop.
21:03:40 <Summermute66> I'll check out foof loop
21:03:49 <arcfide> Summermute66: In practice, looping macros are perfectly good, sane, and useful. The nice thing is that in Scheme, we can write whatever one we want and do so portably.
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21:04:07 <arcfide> Summermute66: Foof loop works on MIT Scheme, Scheme48, PLT Scheme, Chez Scheme, R6RS Schemes, and more.
21:04:23 <arcfide> It is written in SYNTAX-RULES.
21:04:27 <Summermute66> Skeptical about typed sheme?  Aside from the warts, it kind of like it - like coding back and forth in scheme and ML at the same time.
21:04:38 <eli> Summermute66: typed scheme is probably never going to be available anywhere except for PLT.
21:04:58 <arcfide> Summermute66: Typed Scheme has not taken off in other Scheme communities, and it is very PLT Specific.
21:05:30 <Summermute66> Oh, that's ok for me. i just need PLT to get me to boot strap mode for my compiler.
21:05:42 <arcfide> For *your* compiler?
21:05:59 <eli> arcfide: "Typed Scheme" obviously won't take off elsewhere, but the concept of "a typed scheme" has definitely been tried for a very long time.
21:06:13 <Summermute66> Not that I don't appreciate PLT and typed-scheme on its own merits
21:06:39 <arcfide> eli: Yes, of course.
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21:07:45 <arcfide> eli: I meant that Typed Scheme as the language hasn't been implemented anywhere else. At least Typed Scheme still seems to retain some Schemeliness. Some of the other attempts I have seen failed to maintain any sort of usability, in my opinion.
21:07:54 <Summermute66> arcfide: um, yeah, i'm writing a compiler. and no, i'm not a pimply 17 year old kid. I'm 43, with the only problem that I last wrote a real full compiler nearly 20 years ago ;-)
21:08:00 <arcfide> Obviously, that's a very subjective opinion.
21:08:19 <arcfide> Summermute66: If compiler writing is your thing, go for it. :-)
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21:09:33 <Summermute66> It's weird, but when my fingers touch a keyboard, it's where my mind goes. i think it's my stupid harvard philosophy degree specializing in formal languages ;-)
21:10:15 <copumpkin> o.O
21:10:16 <eli> arcfide: Yes, two huge problems are the type system itself (an ML-ish system doesn't work well with Scheme idioms), and making it work nicely with macros.
21:10:45 <lisppaste> EleminoP pasted "vector-map1" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89329
21:10:52 <eli> Oh, and a third huge problem is making it play nicely with untyped code.
21:10:54 <EleminoP> what's wrong with my vector-map?
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21:15:08 <Summermute66> my language is really unschemely - strongly typed, "generics", hopefully a CLR style runtime that specializes on parametric instantiations that don't fit in a word size, etc. and so on.  The only real "schemely/lisply" feature is anon funs and loosey goosey lambda lists with optional/keyword/rest args.  no macro system, but instead a complete special module type with access to a full lex/yacc - more for doing things like embedding
21:17:20 <Summermute66> eli: Does this mean that typed-scheme for PLT's for iterations/comprehensions isn't rapidly forthcoming?
21:18:51 <eli> Summermute66: I don't know what "this" refers to, but nothin in what I said should mean that making loops work in typed scheme is going to be slow.
21:19:14 <arcfide> Summermute66: So, you don't like to use Scheme for embedding, huh?
21:20:05 <Summermute66> eli: I was just refering to your comments regarding the difficulty of making typed-scheme play nicely with macros (hence, for iterations/comprehensions)
21:21:07 <Summermute66> arcfide: Please elaborate on "embedding"
21:22:04 <chandler> EleminoP: What's it supposed to do that it's not doing?
21:22:33 <EleminoP> it's supposed to do the procedure to each element in the vector
21:22:53 <EleminoP> and return a new vector
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21:23:31 <chandler> Right. And what isn't it doing that it ought to do?
21:23:57 <Summermute66> EleminoP: sounds like vector-map
21:24:07 <EleminoP> it's giving an incorrect # of arguments error
21:24:23 <chandler> Right. Keep in mind that (define (p) ...) is equivalent to (define p (lambda () ...))
21:24:40 <arcfide> Summermute66: Embedding, as in making a Scheme environment accessible inside of another instance of a running program to provide functionality or to in some way operate with that program via that programming language. Or, the standard language embedding in other applications term.
21:24:52 <chandler> EleminoP: similarly, (define (p arg1 arg2) ...) -> (define p (lambda (arg1 arg2) ...))
21:24:55 <EleminoP> woah
21:24:57 <eli> Summermute66: Well, that difficulty is what TS is already dealing with, but it's not completely automatic for complex macros like `for'.
21:25:02 <EleminoP> i've never done that before
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21:26:41 <chandler> EleminoP: Do you understand the error now?
21:26:44 <EleminoP> yes
21:28:02 <EleminoP> thank you, chandler
21:28:02 <Summermute66> arcfide: Oh, I don't know - that compiler I wrote 20 years ago was a CLOS-less CLtL2 bytecode compiled implementation for the lowly Windoze 3.0 running on 386/486 class machines - all as a .DLL (and VBX!)  solely for the purpose of easily embedding a nice Lisp inside of a larger system. So I'd say i'm open to the idea of embedding Lisp like languages in larger systems :-)
21:31:03 <arcfide> I was just wondering if you were writing this compiler for pleasure or because you found some existing system inadequate for your needs.
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21:34:07 <Summermute66> arcfide: It's just that my interests are different this time - expressive power within the constraints of a type system, overall compiled program performance (although my old 20 year old byte code compiled Lisp kicked ass on the Gabriel benchmarks), high level optimizations (calling convention based, inlining module-private calls, etc.), user defined operators, convenient control flow constructs (like comprehensions) including "lo
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21:35:46 <Summermute66> My feeling is that given the steep odds of adoption, any language design that occurs outside of 1) a large institution 2) for a very specific purpose - is pretty much a labor of love, i.e., pretty much an intellectual exercise.
21:35:50 <copumpkin> Summermute66: you got truncated at " comprehensions) including "lo"
21:36:35 <Summermute66> copumpkin:  ... including "low hanging fruit" idiomatic concurrency constructs and a whole host of other concerns pretty far away from straight Lisp implementation.
21:36:52 <copumpkin> sounds like haskell :P
21:36:57 <copumpkin> minus the syntax
21:37:25 <Summermute66> And it's strict by default with a lazy keyword :-)
21:37:31 <copumpkin> damn
21:37:39 <Summermute66> Sound tasty yet?
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21:37:45 <copumpkin> and whose name begins with a S and ends in an E?
21:37:53 <Summermute66> ?
21:37:54 <EleminoP> sandie
21:37:59 <copumpkin> that's the one!
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21:41:08 <Summermute66> arcfide: Back to you question, all that philosophy stuff aside, yes, i think we still have a pretty piss poor set of system software development languages.  *Great* historical contributions, still alot of pure obscurantism, but sadly a kind of compartmentalization between different groups of folks doing good language design work.  I mean, imagine if Larry Wall and Phillip Wadler were shut into a room for 5 years and forced to desi
21:41:19 <arcfide> Summermute66: Sorry, doesn't sound very tasty to me. :-) Mostly because I already have a fairly good compiler that I use, convenient control flow constructs, and lots of expressive power. Plus, I don't have to deal with a type system. That's a plus for me.
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21:41:24 <arcfide> Also, I get embeddability.
21:42:09 <arcfide> Summermute66: "to desi...."
21:42:39 <Summermute66> Sure, I'm not religious on the type system thing. Why do you think I'm writing the compiler in Scheme? :-))))
21:43:09 <arcfide> Hehe, no offense meant.
21:43:09 <arcfide> :-)
21:43:39 <Summermute66> When I write certain program transformations (optimizations) and code selection algorithms, I will admit that I would much rather have the "net" of a type system beneath me, though - really, I want it BOTH.
21:44:50 <copumpkin> You clearly need dependent types! Has anyone made a dependently typed scheme yet? :P
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21:46:56 <Summermute66> CLtL2 is probably not everyone's favorite language around here, but just imagine if the semantics of the type proclamations were a little different (ok, alot different) - with type checking, code optimization and a base level of associated type inference enforcement.....   To me, at least, CLtL2 would be alot closer to a "perfect language." Not quite there yet, but alot closer on the "everyday user language level."
21:48:01 <chandler> Is there some particular aspect of ANSI Common Lisp that you dislike?
21:48:07 <chandler> (Not the textbook, the standard.)
21:48:13 <Summermute66> I'm embarrassed, but I'll admit it - after a few attempts, I've never really understood dependent types beyond the seemingly canonical   "nat" natural numbers example.
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21:50:34 <Summermute66> Like many, I wish CLtL2 had a small core and a set of libraries.  For me, the core would have algebraic data types and lists would just start their illustrious life as   data List 'a = cons('a, List 'a) | nil;
21:51:59 <arcfide> Gah!!!
21:52:03 <chandler> My question was motivated by your continued references to CLtL2, instead of the newer version of the standard.
21:52:07 <arcfide> Where are my s-expressions?
21:52:21 <copumpkin> I was only kidding about the dependent types (although I do quite enjoy them)
21:52:21 <Summermute66> I'd prefer a Lisp 1, like Scheme
21:53:50 <Summermute66> I'd prefer a semantics that strongly favored compilation from source files to modules to linked programs, with interactive semantics secondary (and no, I'm NOT claiming ahead of time there would necessesarily be horrible compromises).
21:56:01 <Summermute66> chandler: Stuff like that - really nothing new, except maybe some minimal set of data types, a tiny ML'ish language at the core (not necessarily syntactically) and libraries.  Nothing really new - I imagine I could be counted among thousands of others who would prefer a more or less similar set of changes.
21:56:23 <chandler> I don't recall seeing any changes that are relevant to this between the old, outdated version of the standard and the currrent version of the standard.
21:56:37 <chandler> Once again, my question was about your continued references to an old version of the Common Lisp standard.
21:57:19 <Summermute66> chandler: re: CLtL2 - Just showing my age and intervening years building businesses instead of using Lisp. I presume the most recent standard is ANSI?  If not, excuse my ignorance.
21:57:59 <chandler> Yes, it is. Just say CL unless you want to confuse people with references to CLtL2.
21:58:10 <Summermute66> Will do, thanks.
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22:04:23 <Summermute66> Given the success of Python, Ruby, Perl, etc - all languages based on "the one and only true implementation" - I'm really surprised that no group in the Lisp community hasn't done the same thing - compilation, module system, super convenient FFI, nice emacs mode, beginner friendly with a default build system way simpler than ASDF, regular old style macros, etc. It just seems clear to me, at least, that one would get 110% of the co
22:04:49 <gnomon> "110% of the co [...]"
22:05:10 <Summermute66> gnomon: It just seems clear to me, at least, that one would get 110% of the convenience of Python/Perl/Ruby/etc. and 500% of the power of more or less 1) slow and 2) more-or-less-compromised scripting languages.
22:06:28 <chandler> Why are "regular old style macros" desirable?
22:07:00 <Summermute66> For that matter, some group could just annoint an existing implementation and focus on cranking out FFI interfaces to a million useful libraries, shoring up the docs and distribution, etc.
22:07:14 <chandler> What group are you looking for?
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22:07:22 <copumpkin> an abelian one!
22:07:42 <copumpkin> it simplifies the commute every day
22:07:48 <chandler> I hereby convene the first official meeting of the Popular Front for the Unification of Scheme. We have a motion to anoint PLT as The Implementation. All in favor, say "aye". Aye. The ayes have it.
22:07:57 <Summermute66> chandler: Simplicity of implementation. The point is to focus 100% on "user power" as it were. I have no beef, per se, with hygeinic macros at all.
22:09:37 <Summermute66> As an old timer, the last time I really paid attention to scheme SCM was the big deal among the free implementations. That said, today, as far as I can tell, PLT seems to pretty much reign supreme in the user community.
22:11:42 <Summermute66> And exceping 1) a fast static compiler under the hood and 2) a GUI library that is "slugish" to be polite, it's current "ascendency" in the community seems really well deserved. The documentation alone is really a thing of beauty.
22:11:45 <arcfide> chandler: Nay, Nay!!!
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22:12:24 <arcfide> Hehehe.
22:12:39 <Summermute66> chandler: oh yes, Aye, aye!
22:12:44 <chandler> arcfide: I thought you were a member of the Unified Popular Front for Scheme.
22:12:50 <chandler> (Splitters!)
22:13:18 *arcfide* sniffs ostentatiously.
22:14:26 <Summermute66> Even given the impressive Planet system, the offerings are remarkably thin compared to what was available to Python even 10 year ago or so.
22:15:02 <Summermute66> There really is something to say about concentration of effort when it comes to some jobs, like compiling a crap load of useful libraries and interfaces.
22:15:20 <chandler> I'm not very familiar with where Python was 10 years ago, but what's in the PLT core itself is very impressive (at least when compared to other Scheme / Lisp systems).
22:15:30 <chandler> As far as other libraries, the solution is to write code.
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22:15:51 <arcfide> Summermute66: There's a lot of code in the Scheme community. Finding it can be difficult. Sharing it sometimes harder.
22:15:53 <Summermute66> The core is opaque to me, so that's really good to hear.
22:16:32 <Summermute66> Do any folks remember the slow ascendency of templates and the STL ???
22:16:44 <Summermute66> Early 90's
22:17:12 <arcfide> Summermute66: Bad example to bring up if you want to claim that PLT's supposed ascendency is a good thing.
22:18:13 <Summermute66> The reason I ask, is because they promoted one (among others) really, really good ideas - it's not important that a piece of code can do X unless the programmer has some notion of the performance profile Y or X's implementation.
22:19:01 <arcfide> Summermute66: You mean, it's no good unless you know how fast it is?
22:19:47 <Summermute66> So all of us might well prefer a hashtable instead of an alist for many (most?) purposes. Not because one can "do something" the other one can't, but because of our "presumption" of the performance profile of each.
22:21:00 <arcfide> Summermute66: So most of the time I use alists because I find them empirically faster.
22:21:34 <Summermute66> arcfide: That's all I mean. So where I'm going with this, is that there's a big difference between a group of people organizing  a mild chaos of library development vs. just pulling code willy nilly off of the Web or ripping it out of other Scheme implementations.
22:21:55 <Summermute66> arcfide: Swell, but that's not really the point.
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22:23:45 <arcfide> What is the point?
22:24:18 <triyo> Hi all. I am very new to Scheme. Is there something equivalent to defmacro like in CL in Scheme?
22:24:19 <Summermute66> A centralized group pays attention to certain libraries, ordains other groups to pay attention to other things (think of the now giant Apache organization), documents and discusses things, improves performance and/or functionality, deprecates bodies of code, sets priorities for the "army" of folks who would like to contribute if given some direction.
22:24:32 <arcfide> triyo: There's a lot better. What do you want to write?
22:25:00 <Summermute66> triyo: look up "define-syntax" and "syntax-rules"
22:25:07 <arcfide> Summermute66: I tend to believe that this just won't work in Scheme, and shouldn't be expected to.
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22:25:40 <arcfide> Summermute66: There could be a group, like PLT, which is writing a lot of code in some sort of organized manner. Expecting it to be the center of anything is the problem.
22:25:53 <Summermute66> Well, what i'm proposing should NOT work "in Scheme" - I'm proposing a basic exodus from the general community and a new focus on a
22:26:12 <arcfide> ?_?
22:26:40 <gnomon> ¿_¿
22:26:52 <eli> Summermute66: what's sluggish?  (And BTW, Matthew is rehacking it in Scheme these days.)
22:27:42 <triyo> arcfide: to be honest I am just looking at how one would go about defining own abstraction that can generate specialized functions.
22:27:59 <Summermute66> whoops - on a "one true implementation" style effort akin to Perl, Python or Ruby - with a tiny group of appointed Kings and Queens who make all the final decisions. I really think we'd get a much, much more day-to-day practical scheme implementation (with libraries) that way than the current academic "community" driven family of implementation.
22:28:41 <Summermute66> In other words, I would be pleased as punch if no one could ever again write an academic paper involving any aspect of the Scheme language :-)
22:30:06 <copumpkin> wow
22:30:17 <Summermute66> eli: Sorry, what did I say was "sluggish"?
22:30:32 <arcfide> triyo: Generally, Schemers use SYNTAX-RULES and DEFINE-SYNTAX, which have a number of practical benefits over DEFMACRO. Additionally, if you need procedural macros, I recommend the syntax-case macro system.
22:30:38 <eli> Summermute66: "a GUI library".
22:31:59 <arcfide> Summermute66: I'm afraid I can't agree with you. :-)
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22:32:10 <Summermute66> Oh, the redraw is really, really slow at times (gc? - but hard to imagine that these days), especially given even today's low end cpu/graphics hardware.
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22:33:19 <eli> Summermute66: redrawing definitely doesn't suffer from GC issues -- but it's likely that you needed to use a double buffer in whatever code you were trying to write.
22:33:48 <eli> Summermute66: The 3m GC is in general very fast.
22:34:08 <Summermute66> arcfide: I just want a scheme used by a 10,000's of users  with articles published in Dr. Dobbs - not a sheme used by a few 1,000's users with obscure articles published in the current ACM equivalent of the now defunct Lisp Pointers. No, I don't expect all to agree with me, but I don't think my wishes for such a Scheme are weird or out of line.
22:34:37 <jonrafkind> you are wierd and/or out of line
22:34:41 <jao> Summermute66: use java :P
22:34:55 <Summermute66> eli: re: GC, without knowing the details, that's what i figured.
22:35:17 <Summermute66> jonrafkind:  :-(
22:35:18 <jao> (oh wait, there're are LOTS or research articles using java)
22:35:37 <Summermute66> jao: Actually there are!
22:36:01 <arcfide> Summermute66: I believe there are other ways to achieve popularity without "selling out." These solutions naturally involve getting lots of libraries visible and usable to the community.
22:36:06 <jao> yes. i guess that disqualifies it on your eyes?
22:36:12 <synx> Summermute66: You're free to make your own "one true scheme" but forcing everyone to stop making the other schemes, not so kosher...
22:36:32 <jonrafkind> didn't dr. dobbs go bankrupt or something?
22:36:36 <Summermute66> jao: IBM has cranked out an an enourmous and useful corpus on language implementation revolving around their various JVM efforts.
22:37:59 <Summermute66> synx: No, there's Jpython, and Stackless Python - but let's face it, there's the one true C Python carefully controlled by a small group of benevolent dictators.
22:38:02 <synx> Even if everyone was forced to use PLT, PLT has near on a dozen languages, and not all of them even based on s-expressions!
22:38:29 <synx> Summermute66: Again, you're welcome to benevolently dictate... but forcing people to follow you, I don't agree with.
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22:39:35 <Summermute66> i don't want the job :-)
22:40:00 <arcfide> Summermute66: The community you have to reach is a good deal more selective in their choice of language implementation than the average Python user.
22:40:04 <synx> PLT isn't carefully controlled really. Like that sqlite implementation is horrible, with the requirement of doing so much after an operation. I put a library on planet without any approval at all, and there's no way to delete it...
22:40:11 <synx> PLaneT I mean.
22:40:27 <synx> I assume it could be quite carefully controlled though, given someone started abusing it.
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22:41:47 <Summermute66> I just want the perfect bad ass scheme to use with all the useful libraries already written - and x platform
22:42:12 <synx> Chicken is pretty carefully controlled though. I guess it's a tradeoff whether you want more packages, or carefully examined packages.
22:42:49 <synx> many of the really useful libraries plenty of people have ported all over every scheme implementation around.
22:43:29 <Summermute66> chicken is on the right track - they're just linux bigots
22:43:34 <arcfide> Summermute66: Is one of the Schemes you are using right now inadequate?
22:43:40 <synx> some are fundamentally pretty incompatible too. With Chicken's guarantee of an intermediate C form, it allows much different code writing than PLT, which doesn't even presume to have a C stack (except when using the FFI).
22:44:28 <Summermute66> sorry got a call
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23:03:40 <samth> Summermute66, it really sounds like you want PLT Scheme - you like everything except a few performance issues, which we're working on addressing
23:04:00 <samth> if you want there to be more libraries, programmers (like you) need to contribute them
23:04:13 <samth> and the cool things in almost every scheme are based on research
23:04:54 x2cast [n=alvaro@43.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme
23:05:10 <x2cast> hi !
23:05:35 <arcfide> Hello.
23:05:43 <x2cast> I have a hairy question...
23:05:56 <x2cast> I'm trying to understand the main differences between Lisp and Scheme
23:05:57 <gnomon>  Shave it!  Please!
23:06:09 <x2cast> :D
23:06:19 schmir [n=schmir@p54A900F7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme
23:06:38 <x2cast> I've read Scheme is embeddable...?
23:07:00 <x2cast> so I could compile and run it in another computer with the same OS?
23:07:14 <samth> Lisp is a family of languages descended from john mccarthy's original idea
23:07:28 <x2cast> but scheme is also, right?
23:07:38 <samth> Scheme is a subfamily of that, descended from Guy Steele and Gerry Sussman's idea
23:08:11 <samth> also, embeddable doesn't mean that at all
23:08:12 <x2cast> ok
23:08:30 <x2cast> and are there any differences I should be aware of?
23:08:44 <x2cast> between lisps and scheme?
23:08:51 <samth> many many many
23:09:05 <x2cast> :)
23:09:12 <gnomon> It's kind of like asking what the difference is between ALGOL-68 and BCPL.
23:09:15 <samth> there are many different lisps, and many schemes
23:09:22 <x2cast> wow
23:09:25 <samth> are you referring to a particular pair?
23:09:29 <x2cast> so no easy answer :)
23:09:36 <chandler> Summermute66: You are showing your age; nobody cares about Dr. Dobb's anymore.
23:09:49 <chandler> Summermute66: Podcasts and screencasts are the new magazines.
23:09:50 <gnomon> chandler, I used to enjoy that mag.
23:10:02 <x2cast> is there a scheme called Scheme? :) and maybe SBCL
23:10:04 <gnomon> chandler, bite your filthy tongue!  Those are abominations!
23:10:20 <chandler> As did I. Then I stopped paying for it, since they stopped charging for it. I continued to get what I paid for.
23:10:23 <samth> also, Summermute66, there have been two articles about PLT Scheme, at least, in Dr Dobbs
23:10:28 <arcfide> gnomon: Chez Scheme's executable is called 'scheme'. :-)
23:10:29 <x2cast> I mean, I'm totally ignorant, I'm 100% OOP programmer
23:10:39 <arcfide> x2cast: ^^^
23:10:40 <synx> x2cast: there is no authoritative implementation of scheme. You should choose the one best for your needs.
23:10:43 <chandler> I don't like podcasts or screencasts much myself; I'm making an empirical observation.
23:11:07 <x2cast> but I like small runtimes, small libraries and fast implementations :D
23:11:24 <arcfide> x2cast: What are your specific needs?
23:11:33 <x2cast> oh, just learning
23:11:33 <chandler> x2cast: Scheme and Common Lisp are two different forks of the Lisp family tree. Comparing them without a frame of reference is not easy.
23:11:39 <arcfide> There are a few schemes that *might* satisfy those requirements if you clarify them appropriately.
23:12:03 <synx> you don't need small runtimes in order to learn.
23:12:03 <arcfide> x2cast: Then don't worry about fast implementation, small runtimes, or small libraries.
23:12:08 <x2cast> I plan to use it for little apps and scripts
23:12:16 ecyrb [i=bamoore@192.94.73.30] has joined #scheme
23:12:31 <x2cast> and also I want to *know* a lisp, because of how it is... I've read a bit about its ideas
23:12:33 <arcfide> x2cast: Pick a Scheme, start learning, then pick another, and start learning, after you have used three Schemes, come back for a reward.
23:12:40 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme
23:12:52 <x2cast> also I *have* to learn Autolisp (which is shit) and I'm going to use the opportunity to learn a real one
23:13:01 <chandler> Hoo boy, Autolisp.
23:13:01 <arcfide> x2cast: Many Scheme's have nice scripting interfaces that allow you to make #! scripts.
23:13:05 <samth> or, pick a scheme, start learning, then get real work done in that scheme
23:13:09 <synx> Seek out ye 3 schemes and bring me 7 deadratcarcasses by dawn tomorrow
23:14:15 <x2cast> and i've read also that there are more "pure" and "impure" lisps...
23:14:21 <x2cast> could anyone clarify me that, please?
23:14:36 <arcfide> x2cast: Hahahahahahhaa!
23:14:37 <chandler> No; those terms are too vague to clarify.
23:14:43 <synx> Any scheme that can claim to be R5RS compliant is "pure" enough.
23:14:48 <x2cast> :D
23:14:53 *arcfide* casts x2cast into the pit of ambivalence.
23:15:10 <x2cast> heheheh
23:15:13 <x2cast> ok ok...
23:15:27 <x2cast> I'm going to learn and then come back with more questions :)
23:15:39 <x2cast> I'm just a bit lost with so many implementations...
23:15:46 <arcfide> x2cast: If you really want to get a flavor of Scheme, my recommendations are Petite Chez Scheme, MIT Scheme, PLT Scheme, Scheme48, and Chicken. Try those out, read their manuals, and enjoy.
23:15:55 <ecyrb> What should I pass as the 2nd argument to larceny's err5rs / r6rs eval function?
23:16:00 <chandler> x2cast: If you ask here, you'll get a lot of different answers.
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23:16:17 <synx> R5RS is usually the acid test. Though they have R6RS now, it's... not popular.
23:16:17 <synx> if (cons item '()) makes a 2 element list, then you've got a "bad" scheme.
23:16:17 <arcfide> They should give you a sampling of the community that is pretty broad.
23:16:32 <x2cast> :) yes, but that's nice
23:16:37 <arcfide> synx: R6RS is contentious, not necessarily not popular.
23:16:39 <x2cast> Chicken??
23:16:39 <chandler> synx: ... What implementation would do that?
23:16:47 <x2cast> what a name for a programming language!
23:17:04 <x2cast> (implementation)
23:17:16 <arcfide> x2cast: It's an implementation of Scheme, and it uses C and the intermediate language.
23:17:22 <arcfide> It's fairly large, but very unixy.
23:17:57 <x2cast> I like unixy things
23:18:00 <synx> chandler: I thought there was one, but now that I check it doesn't...
23:18:01 <arcfide> PLT Scheme is a massive umbrella of related languages with tons of fixins and lot's of knobs. It's a good example of the "Heavy" Scheme.
23:18:03 <chandler> x2cast: In my opinion, the most polished, well-implemented, and clearly documented implementation available today is PLT Scheme. You might want to poke around the web site a bit to see what's there. http://www.plt-scheme.org/
23:18:14 <synx> Yeah PLT is pretty awesome.
23:18:29 <x2cast> I'm compiling PLT now
23:18:45 <arcfide> x2cast: Petite Chez Scheme is the free version of the commercial Chez Scheme compiler, which is well renowned for performance and overall stability.
23:19:07 <arcfide> chandler: I don't know about well-implemented and clearly documented. :-)
23:19:09 <synx> x2cast: Also try Chicken, and http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-implementations
23:19:19 <arcfide> x2cast: MIT Scheme is classic Scheme, for some definition of classic.
23:19:20 <chandler> (well renowned? according to whom?)
23:19:49 <arcfide> chandler: When an entire workshop of Scheme implementors start making jokes about Chez Scheme and its performance relative to constants in the universe, it's well known.
23:20:04 <arcfide> chandler: And it does have that reputation.
23:20:19 <x2cast> :) I'm going to take a look at all those
23:20:22 <x2cast> thanks guys
23:20:57 <arcfide> x2cast: You'll probably find that you need to try out a few to get a feel for all the differences and the similarities, and figure out the one that you want to use to get real work done. All of the ones I mentioned are used today to get plenty of "real work" done.
23:21:14 <x2cast> yes, I'll do that
23:21:57 <arcfide> Does Chicken have a good manual?
23:22:04 <chandler> arcfide: I would say that it is well known in the implementor community, amongst the set of commercial Chez licensees, and amongst the set of people who at one time or another had an email address ending in @cs.indiana.edu. Amongst the general Scheme user community, I'm not so sure.
23:22:34 <arcfide> chandler: Hrm, you've just collected a pretty large set of the Scheme community there.
23:22:36 <chandler> I wonder how many people here have used non-Petite Chez.
23:22:42 <synx> Chicken has a very good manual. PLT is pretty much the most verbose documentation around though.
23:22:55 <synx> I don't use non-free implementations.
23:23:03 <ratelle> x2cast : you may check gambit-c also
23:23:17 <arcfide> synx: Verbose, maybe. I find Chez Scheme's manual easier to read though. It does have the advantage of not having to deal with as much stuff as PLT Scheme's documentation does.
23:23:51 <arcfide> So, Chez, PLT, Scheme48, and Chicken have good documentation.
23:24:24 <arcfide> chandler: Quite a few.
23:24:39 <chandler> arcfide: If that's a large set of the Scheme community, it's only because the percentage of Scheme users who fall into the first set is unfortunately too high.
23:24:44 <arcfide> chandler: Anyone at IU in the CS department has access to it.
23:24:59 <arcfide> chandler: Yes. :-)
23:25:07 <arcfide> chandler: Though I am not sure that I would call it unfortunate.
23:25:23 <chandler> arcfide: Right; that was my third set.
23:25:34 <x2cast> ratelle: thanks!
23:25:47 <arcfide> chandler: At any rate, I think its a fair guess that most of the Scheme community has heard of PLT, MIT, Chez, Chicken, and Scheme48.
23:26:13 <arcfide> And most will be familiar to some extent with their philosophies.
23:27:03 <ratelle> x2cast: If you try it and have questions, don't hesitate to post on the mailing list
23:27:06 <chandler> For what it's worth, before I went to IU, I had heard of and used PLT, MIT, and Scheme48 (or scsh; I'm forgetting which, but it really doesn't matter for purposes of this conversation). I was not familiar with Chez; if I had heard of it, it hadn't "stuck".
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23:28:04 <x2cast> ratelle: thanks :) that's great
23:28:42 <ecyrb> Figured it out.  (scheme-report-environment 5)
23:29:24 <samth> ecyrb, there's also a procedure to take an import spec and produce an environment
23:29:26 <chandler> ecyrb: That's only if you've imported (rnrs r5rs (6)), isn't it?
23:29:53 <chandler> ecyrb: If you're using R6RS, you probably want to use the `environment' procedure in the (rnrs eval (6)) library.
23:30:53 <arcfide> chandler: How long ago was that?
23:31:04 <chandler> Oh, 2003ish.
23:31:13 <Summermute66> samth: "Summermute66, it really sounds like you want PLT Scheme - you like everything except a few performance issues, which we're working on addressing" -  Really, you are correct. It's more or less gained "uber-status" drawing the needed resources to it, it has a JIT which I presume some wizards are banging on, and so I'm just waiting for 1) ever better typed-scheme integration cause I like using it and 2) exponential growth in 
23:31:20 <ecyrb> Ah.  Silly me.  It's all documented in TSPL4.
23:31:28 <chandler> Summermute66: "exponential growth in"
23:32:14 <samth> well, i'll fix the typed scheme bugs very soon
23:32:24 <samth> right after i ship this draft of my dissertation
23:33:18 <chandler> arcfide: I think one of the fundamental reasons is that I really only considered those things which could be installed easily from packages on a typical Linux distribution. Commercial implementations were completely off my radar.
23:33:26 <chandler> I expect that's the case for many users.
23:33:40 <chandler> (I suppose that should be "Commercial implementation". :-)
23:34:37 <arcfide> Hm....so, you used your repository to search for Scheme implementations, and so the RPM wouldn't have been useful to you at all.
23:34:55 <arcfide> I think that there is a group of them that do that.
23:35:00 <chandler> Yup, pretty much.
23:35:15 <chandler> These days, I have a lot less trust in the distribution packaging process than I used to.
23:35:29 <gnomon> chandler, unfortunately I have to agree.
23:35:32 <arcfide> I am not sure how many of those sorts out there.
23:35:45 <Summermute66> chandler: "Summermute66: You are showing your age; nobody cares about Dr. Dobb's anymore."  I shed a tear for an end of an era. I still have my old dusty editions of Lisp Pointers and C++ Report :-)  (Actually, I'm not kidding).  I should go an spring for those "Every Byte Mag Issue" and "Every DDJ Issue" CD collections.  They were *really* great publications in their day.  I pity the youngster learning software development faced 
23:35:46 <samth> in general, the chances of a non-free-software language becoming popular these days is pretty close to nil
23:35:52 <gnomon> Or perhaps commiserate, rather.
23:36:02 <Summermute66> samth: Amen
23:36:03 <chandler> Summermute66: Your long lines are being cut off; this last message was cut off at "software development faced"
23:36:11 <x2cast> ratelle: how does it compare to bigloo?
23:36:15 <Summermute66> Sorry
23:36:19 <samth> and your previous one was cut off at "growth in"
23:36:33 <chandler> x2cast: Bigloo is a fairly broken implementation of Scheme; avoid it unless you have a very specific reason for using it.
23:36:42 <x2cast> ok
23:36:48 <Summermute66> "They were *really* great publications in their day.  I pity the youngster learning software development faced with the entire Web as a resource with little to guide them in the right directions."
23:36:52 <x2cast> I like the C connection they claim
23:36:55 <chandler> arcfide: I think there are still a fair number of folks who stick with the set of software that can be installed by Synaptic et al.
23:36:58 <arcfide> samth: By that I assume that you mean FSF Free Software, and that may very well be true.
23:37:01 <x2cast> just to be able to plug it to some of my code
23:37:09 <arcfide> I wouldn't go so far as to say Amen though.
23:37:27 <samth> x2cast, many scheme's have foreign function interfaces
23:37:34 <x2cast> ah nice
23:37:50 <x2cast> does gambit have it?
23:37:55 <Summermute66> samth: re PLT desires, "I'm just waiting for 1) ever better typed-scheme integration because I like using it and 2) exponential growth in available PLaneT libraries :-)"
23:38:12 <arcfide> x2cast: PLT, Chicken, Gambit, Chez, Scheme48, SISC, and quite a few others have FFIs.
23:38:12 <ratelle> x2cast: http://dynamo.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/wiki/index.php/Gambit_benchmarks
23:38:16 <samth> arcfide, free as in speech is important, and that's what i was saying, but free as in beer is imperative
23:38:19 <chandler> x2cast: Yes. As do PLT and Chicken. Scheme48 is comparably more difficult to implement.
23:38:38 <Summermute66> Bigloo seems like a "well put together" broken system - weird.
23:38:40 <samth> Summermute66: the solution is to write some - they're pretty easy
23:38:50 <chandler> samth: Petite is free as in beer, but I think the lack of source availability is a turnoff as well.
23:38:51 <x2cast> ratelle: I was just looking at those benchmarks
23:38:57 <x2cast> Gambit seems impressive
23:39:07 <ratelle> x2cast: yes it has a FFI
23:39:12 <x2cast> it beats most of the other implementations
23:39:17 <x2cast> there must be a catch :P
23:39:20 <chandler> Benchmark-wise, it is very impressive.
23:39:50 <arcfide> chandler: I think that has a lot to do with the way things are marketed, with Open Source gaining a sort of credibility status and painitng commercial vendors in a sometimes inaccurately negative light.
23:39:53 <chandler> One catch is that you have to pass a strange flag to say "make this work like Scheme". That flag is "-:s".
23:40:07 <Summermute66> How "native" is Gambit's Mac and Windows support?
23:40:21 <arcfide> Actually, I would like to rerun those benchmarks with newer versions of Chez Scheme.
23:40:25 <x2cast> chandler: wut? and without that flag how does it behave then?
23:40:36 <arcfide> Unfortunately, I found it difficult to bootstrap the benchmarks just from the examples.
23:40:43 <ratelle> Summermute66: It compiles to portable c
23:40:44 <arcfide> Sorry, just from the source.
23:40:45 <chandler> x2cast: Sort of like Scheme, but with broken macros.
23:40:56 <samth> x2cast, don't put too much faith in microbenchmarks
23:41:09 <arcfide> x2cast: What samth said.
23:41:34 <Summermute66> Anything that requires cygwin is broken by definition.
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23:41:46 <x2cast> samth, arcfide: I agree
23:41:57 <ratelle> x2cast: Yes hygienic macro don't behave well with the debugger
23:42:20 <ratelle> x2cast: There's actually a solution to that but I won't bother you with it now hehe
23:42:40 <chandler> arcfide: Well, if you're going to depend on a language implementation, I think there is something to be said for the credibility of open source. Choose poorly when selecting an open source implementation, and the worst case scenario is that you have to fix bugs yourself. Choose a commercial vendor poorly, and the worst case scenario is that you're up the proverbial sewage creek without a paddle.
23:43:14 <samth> also, since the major selling point of chez is the performance, the free interpreter isn't that big a win
23:43:23 <ratelle> x2cast: Although they tell you not to put too much faith in microbenchmark, I can tell you I've used gambit-c on several large commercial projects and it is very fast
23:43:47 <x2cast> ratelle: you are a Gambit dev?
23:44:00 <ratelle> x2cast: yes
23:44:15 <x2cast> for some reason it is masked in Gentoo
23:44:19 <x2cast> but doesn't say much
23:44:38 <chandler> arcfide: I'm not sure I ever quite got a feel for how many paying customers there are for Chez Scheme, or of how many employees there are that aren't also IU faculty/staff/students.
23:44:48 <ratelle> x2cast: Mmmm, I don't even know who maintains that...
23:44:49 <arcfide> chandler: That may be true if the languages were that different. I don't find the porting effort to be that great from one Scheme to another for myself, in the worst case, and I'm willing to take that hit.
23:45:26 <ratelle> x2cast: Well to be fair, another problem of gambit-c is that it doesn't have as much libraries as Chicken and Plt
23:45:37 <ratelle> x2cast: But we are working on this :D
23:45:40 <Summermute66> ratelle: How does Gambit handle debugging of compiled code?
23:45:52 <x2cast> so every implementation has its own libraries?
23:46:36 <samth> chandler, there are other universities with site licenses for chez
23:46:48 <samth> we have one at Northeastern, but only for the solaris machines
23:47:05 <ratelle> Summermute66 : You may compile with debug flag and it will keep all the relevant debugging information. You might have to compile without tail-calls to have a stack information if debugging tail-recursive functions
23:47:49 <Summermute66> samth: do you know why Chez doesn't list a price (or a even a thorough product description) for an individual buyer? Are they simply not interested in individual sales?
23:48:03 <arcfide> samth: I would say that the performance of Chez is a nice win, but there are more things than that which initially drew me to it. Support, reliability, documentation, debugging tools, to name a few.
23:48:08 <samth> yeah, i've looked at the web page
23:48:48 <ratelle> x2cast: Yes libraries are incompatible
23:48:57 <Summermute66> ratelle: that does't sound too bad at all. as far as tail calls, personally i expect the frames to "disappear" - after all, that's the semantics of the language :-)
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23:50:06 <ratelle> Summermute66: Yes but it is sometimes very useful have frames, trust me :D
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23:54:23 <x2cast> "Advocates of Scheme often find it amusing that the Scheme standard is shorter than the index to CLtL2."
23:54:26 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-39-165.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme
23:54:28 <x2cast> LOL
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23:55:04 <dmoerner> is that still true for r6rs?
23:55:10 <gnomon> Hell no
23:55:14 <dmoerner> that's what i thought haha
23:55:20 <gnomon> Also, go to hell.
23:55:27 <x2cast> from here
23:55:29 <x2cast> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/faqs/lang/lisp/part1/faq-doc-2.html
23:56:02 <arcfide> x2cast: There is plenty of semi-portable code out there, but many implementations have their own set of libraries they provide by default.
23:56:17 <x2cast> one thing i recall I stumbled upon in the past is a library or language called Termite
23:56:29 <x2cast> I was learning Erlang back then
23:56:40 <gnomon> x2cast, right, yome created that.  He checks in here from time to time
23:56:41 <chandler> Termite is a distributed library for Gambit.
23:57:02 <arcfide> Summermute66: I'm not sure why Chez doesn't put up the prices, but they do have licenses for single developers.
23:57:06 <x2cast> I love those things
23:57:29 <x2cast> so gambit earns +10 points
23:57:32 <x2cast> :P
23:57:41 <arcfide> x2cast: What does distributed mean here?
23:58:03 <Summermute66> Taking my praise for PLT as a given, I have noted that there are a few nice languages with superb environments that are "up'ing the ante" on what a language implementation should be.  Just look at MS's F# under Visual Studio or Scala running under NetBeans (or Eclipse - pick your poison). Each in their own way are really impressive, sophisticated languages each running under super tricked out environments. What's to become of Sche
23:58:14 <ratelle> x2cast: I did some work in termite. I use it for a distributed processing platform.
23:58:40 <chandler> Summermute66: You must not want anybody to read your messages. Despite being told multiple times that your paragraph-long messages are being cut off by the IRC server, you don't change anything.
23:58:43 <ratelle> arcfide: It's an actor system a la erlang
23:58:50 <x2cast> arcfide:  message-passing among many computers and/or threads
23:59:14 <Summermute66> sorry again: "Each in their own way are really impressive, sophisticated languages each running under super tricked out environments. What's to become of Scheme/Lisp?"
23:59:44 <chandler> I'm not sure that either of those is really more impressive than PLT.