00:01:48 Is there some pre-existing standard routine for removing a given prefix from a list? 00:02:06 For example (deprefix '(a b c) '(a b c d e f)) => '(d e f). 00:02:28 Not that I'm aware of. 00:10:53 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-86.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:12:45 Riastradh: Not that it is hard to write.... 00:12:57 arcfide: what's wrong with a specialized lset-difference? 00:13:35 less efficient than a length-based deletion, though 00:14:18 klutometis: Set operations are not linear list operations. 00:14:33 klutometis: Those operations treat a list as a set, which is not what I want. 00:15:08 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:15 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:02 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:11 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined 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#scheme 02:27:12 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 02:29:08 -!- Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:31:15 Makoryu [n=vt920@166.186.171.132] has joined #scheme 02:32:50 Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #scheme 02:33:36 seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:45:45 is file input/outoutp defined in scheme r5rs or is it implementation specific:? 02:46:45 optimizer: There is "some" file input/output support in R5RS. 02:47:03 open-inpyut-file is what i wanted :-) 02:47:03 optimizer: It's definitely in the "least common denominator" category, in my opinion. 02:47:08 Yep. :-P 02:47:08 You can open files, read/write, close them. 02:47:09 jcowan, memo from Riastradh: Please don't include the R6RS's *stupid* names for operations on integers as bit strings in the next Scheme report. 02:47:43 hmm; is there no readline in r5rs? 02:47:54 No, but it's trivial to loop on read-char until you get a \n. 02:48:26 R6RS has one and I hope small-r7rs will too. 02:52:32 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176195106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:01:08 R7RS FÞ 03:07:18 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@166.186.171.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:09:02 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176195253.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:16:47 -!- seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:16:51 -!- schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:17:20 Fitbos [n=CDR2003@61.48.215.86] has joined #scheme 03:17:42 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e177120153.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:21:21 anybody here to talk? 03:21:40 No, we are here to be silent. 03:21:49 Try #idle for good conversation. 03:22:22 ok, thx 03:25:55 -!- Fitbos [n=CDR2003@61.48.215.86] has left #scheme 03:30:14 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:32:21 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:35:49 jcowan: Obviously Fitbos has no sense of humour. :-P 03:37:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:43:18 where's the library function for tokenizing strings? 03:43:52 ah, SRFI 13 03:44:33 Lists 1, strings 13, character sets 14, vectors 43. 03:46:25 Fuufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #scheme 03:59:05 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 04:00:07 -!- MononcQc [n=mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING NEXT VERSION OF INTERNET"] 04:00:44 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:03:47 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-56.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:03:51 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:28 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@cpe-74-68-112-229.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:11:07 "Expected procedure, given (#)" is an annoying error 04:13:05 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:13:39 *Elly* smacks herself for not noticing the () around it 04:14:18 Every little () counts. 04:14:53 indeed :P 04:19:01 zanes [n=zane@c-76-24-24-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:33:50 -!- zanes [n=zane@c-76-24-24-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:38:18 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 04:42:27 incubot: every little () she does is magic 04:42:27 Error: unbound variable: little 04:42:41 incubot: every little [] she does is magic 04:42:45 implementations that work on every chipset and platform from the pdp-11 onward... 04:55:13 every little thing 1 she does is magic 05:08:58 schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:18:10 -!- rcy [n=rcy@d154-20-175-81.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:53 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.171.157] has joined #scheme 05:26:03 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:34:35 rcy [n=rcy@d154-20-175-81.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 05:36:51 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 06:04:04 shyam_k [n=user@117.204.85.96] has joined #scheme 06:07:46 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 06:08:51 If you have a procedure argument whose default value is invoking a parameter, will the default value be the value of the parameter at the time of procedure definition, or will it be at the times that procedure is applied? 06:10:54 -!- shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:55:08 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057A9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 06:56:30 -!- jedc [n=jedc@c-67-171-246-227.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:28 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:12:15 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 07:16:55 xwl [n=user@tu130022.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has joined #scheme 07:19:11 rudybot: eval (define (foo [x (printf "foo!")]) 1) 07:19:11 eli: error: eval:1:13: read: illegal use of open square bracket 07:19:25 rudybot: init scheme 07:19:27 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 07:19:30 rudybot: eval (define (foo [x (printf "foo!")]) 1) 07:19:39 rudybot: eval (foo 10) 07:19:39 eli: ; Value: 1 07:19:41 rudybot: eval (foo) 07:19:42 eli: ; Value: 1 07:19:43 eli: ; stdout: "foo!" 07:19:47 synx: There. 07:20:31 SvekloC [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 07:20:37 okay, so evaluation of defaults happens...hm... 07:22:17 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:09 synx: It's an expression, which gets evaluated when you invoke the function with missing arguments. 07:25:20 rudybot: eval (foo) 07:25:21 eli: ; Value: 1 07:25:22 eli: ; stdout: "foo!" 07:25:37 Otherwise that wouldn't have printed that string a second time. 07:25:40 Yeah, I see. 07:27:30 ASau [n=user@host79-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 07:33:16 masm [n=masm@bl7-92-158.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 07:34:21 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-92-158.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 07:46:20 Right. 07:50:44 xwl` [n=user@tu130022.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has joined #scheme 07:52:37 -!- xwl [n=user@tu130022.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:18:53 -!- SvekloC [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:19:04 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 08:19:57 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Farewell"] 08:21:42 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-65.res.pomona.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:24:33 -!- schemer999 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joined #scheme 12:47:47 nan8 [n=user@HSI-KBW-095-208-171-082.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #scheme 12:48:18 is there a srfi/standard for safe temporary file / directory creation? 12:50:00 I doubt it. 12:50:46 any implementation you really like? 12:51:27 mit scheme seems to have call-with-temporary-file, slib doesn't have anything?, others? 12:52:02 on the gauche ml there recently was a discussion but in the end there was afaik no result 12:52:33 ~s/implementation/API 12:53:24 chicken has file-mkstemp 12:55:00 plt has make-temporary-file 12:56:07 maybe it is easier to use your scheme's FFI and call to mkstemp mkdtemp directly (if running under unix) 12:56:22 chicken lacks a way to make a temp dir 12:57:18 C-Keen: yes that's true - probably the simplest solution 12:58:21 nan8: what scheme are you working in? 12:58:31 C-Keen: gauche 12:58:42 i guess this is a typical "not difficult enough to find a common solution" problem ;-) 12:59:03 maybe :) 13:02:06 -!- SvekloC_ 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[n=apgwoz@216.156.136.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:18 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:14:41 incubot: Welcome back! 14:14:45 Right, that's why I gave up C a while back. Unless I need to do something very low level. 14:14:59 Someone asked earlier about temporary files, and said `I guess this is a typical ``not difficult enough to find a common solution'' problem.' That is not the case; it's hairy enough that the `right' solution is not obvious. There are actually several related problems here: recording temporary files that should be deleted when the process exits, generating temporary file names, and creating temporary files and directories, and al 14:15:17 Eck. IRC probably split that message in half. 14:15:31 '.. directories, and al' 14:16:03 There are several related problems here: recording temporary files that should be deleted when the process exits, generating temporary file names, and creating temporary files and directories, and all this sometimes in diferent locations (e.g., /tmp, $TMPDIR, a particular file system (e.g., for atomic overwrite by write-to-temporary/rename-to-permanent), a particular directory (e.g., in Maildir), &c.). 14:22:05 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:22:18 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-106.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:29:00 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #scheme 14:29:44 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:30:18 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:30:18 -!- cornbread [n=max@mendotasoft.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net 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irc.freenode.net] 15:23:19 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:23:19 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:23:38 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 15:23:38 cornbread [n=max@mendotasoft.com] has joined #scheme 15:23:38 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 15:23:38 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 15:24:24 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.168.191] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:25:05 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-217.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:31:19 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 15:32:07 rotty pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88286 15:32:39 erm, that should be titled "fmt" question. 15:33:22 -!- rotty_ is now known as rotty 15:34:21 foof: is that a bug in `fmt', or am I doing something wrong? 15:35:29 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 15:35:38 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:38:47 rotty: looks like a bug, thanks for reporting that 15:39:04 foof: so you can reproduce it? 15:39:07 If you try it with (dsp "- Item 1:\n\n") it messes up the 3rd line 15:39:34 I see. 15:39:40 So it's a bug in the transition from displaying the column output to just displaying empty output. 15:39:48 -!- jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@cpe-69-205-162-163.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:07 jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@cpe-24-24-81-46.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:48:48 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 15:52:43 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 16:04:04 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:05:34 rotty: fixed 16:05:44 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:07:24 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 16:07:45 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 16:12:23 foof: cool -- patch URL? 16:14:59 hmmm.. I'll try to make a release over the weekend 16:15:19 in the meantime, in fmt-column.scm, after: 16:15:29 ;; reduce # of remaining finite columns 16:15:29 (set! remaining (- remaining 1)) 16:15:29 16:15:33 add: 16:15:39 ((fmt (string-concatenate-reverse acc)) orig-st) 16:15:39 16:16:47 sorry, a proper patch against current dev might not be usable by you :) 16:16:48 nice -- thanks! 16:17:53 foof: chibi doesn't come anywhere close to building on plan 9 :( 16:18:47 Elly: It did a few releases ago (at least on 9vx) - the latest head is in the middle of a bunch of changes. 16:19:31 it requires stuff like FILE, doesn't it? 16:19:43 what? 16:20:24 the last time I tried to build it, it relied on things the plan 9 compiler doesn't even support, like #ifdef 16:20:57 The last official release, 0.2, didn't build, that's true. 16:21:14 But Plan 9 has support for #ifdef and FILE. 16:21:47 is it #if that it doesn't have? 16:21:54 also, where's your repo again? I will try the head 16:22:09 I kinda want a modern scheme on plan 9 in the next week 16:22:18 (an embeddable one, that is) 16:22:46 Damn, yeah, I broke Plan 9 support when I added support for infinities... 16:23:22 So current dev won't build. 16:23:45 y'all need a buildbot! Although the buildbot slave might won't run on plan 9 either :) 16:23:53 s/won't/not/ 16:24:01 people have a tendency to 'port' stuff by making it build under APE and then letting it rot 16:24:13 Why would the Plan 9 C compiler have #ifdef but not #if? 16:24:17 which is unfortunate, because I am writing a native plan 9 program and you can't have one foot on each side of the APE fence 16:24:25 Riastradh: they believe that all uses of #if lead to unmaintainable code 16:24:31 foof: OK, one more nitpick: it stops output after emitting an empty first column (with no text to the right), when it IMHO should stop with when the right-hand side is exhausted 16:24:32 But yes, by default Plan 9 doesn't support #if, but there are settings to make that work. It _was_ building and working properly, and even has (rough) 9p support. 16:24:40 Transforming #if to #ifdef makes it worse, Elly. 16:24:44 rotty: I'm working on that now. 16:24:46 Riastradh: no it doesn't 16:24:49 Yes, it does. 16:24:57 Riastradh: #if is strictly more powerful than #ifdef 16:25:12 Yes. So transforming #if to #ifdef causes your code to explode. 16:26:13 no, because they recommend replacing uses of #if with if (0) 16:26:22 er, with if 16:26:26 For simple `#if defined(foo) ... #elif defined(bar) ... #endif', you have to add superfluous nesting levels which you must match up. For `#if defined(foo) || defined(bar) ...', you must either duplicate code or introduce new temporary symbols. 16:27:08 You can't ask whether foo is defined with if. 16:27:25 I shouldn't need to, if my program is well-designed 16:28:28 Chibi uses #if to support defaults which may be either 0 or 1. 16:28:39 in that case you want if (...) 16:28:50 using if means your switched-off code still gets checked for syntax and such 16:29:49 If you shouldn't need to ask whether foo is defined, why do you allow #ifdef? 16:30:14 Riastradh: I mean like you shouldn't need to use elsif there 16:30:25 What? 16:30:40 hm 16:30:46 *Elly* does not remember the rationale in the paper 16:31:04 #if defined(i386) ... #elif defined(powerpc) ... #elif ... 16:31:11 one moment, I will reread it 16:32:04 I won't claim that preprocessor conditionals in general don't often lead to error-prone code that is hard to follow and maintain. But I will argue that prohibiting #if but not #ifdef is just silly. 16:32:42 hm, the compiler paper doesn't say 16:33:04 The plan 9 compiler paper? 16:33:07 yep 16:33:36 There's no rationale for not supporting #if, except that the plan 9 compiler is quite minimal. 16:33:42 it is, in fact 16:34:25 So why don't they fix the compiler, then? 16:34:36 as they see it it is not broken 16:34:55 Oh well. Their loss, I suppose. 16:35:10 meme [n=meme@c-76-104-20-221.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:35:13 They think most additions to C after Unix was created were mistakes. 16:35:37 I could understand if they prohibited all preprocessor conditionals, but this is just absurd. 16:35:43 ... though they've made some small additions of their own. 16:36:01 Is that a general principle, or an aggregated observation, foof? 16:36:16 A general principle. 16:36:33 foof: the anonymous-substructure-polymorphism thing is silly 16:36:46 That's pretty ridiculous. Are they trying not to be taken seriously? 16:36:53 Riastradh: Also note that your example is used mostly in writing portable code. The Plan 9 community is very anti-portable. 16:37:10 it's true 16:37:13 -!- jao [n=jao@80.24.4.74] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:37:18 their design is actively hostile to portability 16:37:27 the standard library is gratuitously different in some places 16:37:39 What do they hope to accomplish by this attitude? 16:37:40 Riastradh: The Plan 9 community includes some of the creators of C and Unix. 16:37:51 they want people not to think it's unix, Riastradh 16:37:55 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:07 So it's kind of like Sussman scoffing at R6RS and refusing to bother with R6RS portability. 16:38:24 The Plan 9 community sounds like a bunch of jokers who will be forgotten in a few years. 16:38:25 foof, no, it's not at all like that. 16:38:35 jrtayloriv: they are already forgotten 16:38:40 but they have been around for 20 years 16:38:49 :) 16:38:49 They're not going anywhere :) 16:39:37 The R6RS was a terrible example of design-by-committee. Although Sussman's code runs only on MIT Scheme, I don't think that's because of any hostility toward other Scheme systems; I think it's just because it's the Scheme system he uses. 16:40:10 The R6RS doesn't foster portability; it just speaks of portability, as part of the intent of the committee, whether or not that intent was realized. 16:40:10 And Plan 9 C is just the C compiler that they use. 16:40:26 You really think C99 is such an unquestioned improvement over its predecessors? 16:40:31 foof: more to the point, it is The C Compiler 16:41:23 foof, that Plan 9 C is just the C compiler they use is still different. Sussman didn't design MIT Scheme to be deliberately incompatible with and actively hostile toward other Scheme systems, but it sounds like these Plan 9 folks did design their C compiler to be deliberately incompatible with and actively hostile toward other C implementations. 16:41:38 my current project is to replace The Window Manager 16:41:44 with a more unixish window manager 16:41:50 I have met actual opposition to this project 16:41:50 Elly: tiling? :) 16:41:52 which is weird 16:41:54 XTL: yep! 16:41:59 XTL: tiling and keyboard-driven 16:42:18 Elly: they'll flame you to death if you let them know about it :) 16:42:26 XTL: already happened 16:42:30 I said nothing about the quality of C99, or the merit of whatever extensions have been made to C since the original Unix. I said that their general principle of rejecting them is ridiculous, and makes them sound as though they are trying not to be taken seriously. 16:42:42 Riastradh: I mean, in a way, they aren't 16:42:55 Elly: Well, if you can do it despite that, it might be interesting 16:42:56 they have taken the last 20 years of development in the practice of software engineering and discarded it 16:43:04 Riastradh: No, they really, really just don't give a damn about other C compilers. 16:43:08 they do not use version control, they do not test, they do not comment 16:43:35 Their system is so completely different in so many aspects, that it doesn't mean much to just support all the latest C syntax. 16:43:41 yes 16:43:51 the syntax is the least of your worries in trying to port a system 16:44:16 On the other hand, they have a full posix compatibility layer, and in that environment they _do_ work hard on compatibility, and support #if etc. 16:44:22 the graphics API is *completely* different from anything else out there, as is the networking layer, file system interface, etc 16:44:34 foof: yeah, but inside there you can't use plan9isms like alt() and srv() 16:44:50 and since the entire system is built on those, POSIX programs are second-class citizens 16:45:10 Right, which is why it's a compatibility layer - a separate environment. 16:46:06 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:46:27 hm 16:46:39 I don't think you can implement #if in the preprocessor, but you can do #ifdef 16:46:53 foof, so they've gone out of their way to implement support for #if in their compiler, and they still choose to prohibit it, but allow #ifdef, in their native compiler. 16:47:14 Riastradh: It's a whole separate layer. 16:47:22 they implemented a special posix preprocessor and compiler 16:47:37 It's like supporting RnRS only via a meta-circular interpereter. 16:47:39 Who cares whether it's a whole separate layer? So far the only reason I've heard for excluding #if is that their compiler is too minimal, but obviously they have a more maximal compiler. 16:47:58 So obviously they don't mind spending a little bit of extra effort, and in fact they've spent that extra effort. 16:48:00 they do, but they don't *want* to 16:48:10 (have a more maximal compiler as the default) 16:48:17 Elly, what do you mean `you can't implement #if in the preprocessor'? It is a part of the preprocessor. 16:48:42 Riastradh: hang on, let me consult gcc 16:49:03 .oO( "more maximal"? ) 16:49:05 They've never had any reason to backport that particular extension into the minimal compiler. That extension is usually only used for hairy conditional-compilation for portability, which only matters in the posix environment. 16:49:27 okay, never mind 16:49:37 I thought you could do #if x where x is a program variable :P 16:49:50 So it would just make the minimal compiler more complicated for no good reason. 16:50:16 to give you an idea, the entirety of the system include files use a total of one #ifdef 16:50:18 foof, but they're happy with including the extra complication for #ifdef. 16:51:30 Sure, that's more commonly used for reasons other than portability. 16:55:27 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:56:45 anyway, foof, a) where's the chibi head and b) is it likely to build soon? 16:57:11 Elly: http://code.google.com/p/chibi-scheme/ 16:57:17 and no 16:57:28 :( 16:57:35 why you gotta be like that, etc 16:58:47 Elly, you should express your disappointment by walking up to foof with a large bag of candy, handing him two or three pieces, then sitting down and noisily snacking on the rest of the bag. 17:01:23 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 17:01:57 agh 17:02:05 the plan 9 C compiler error messages bother me 17:02:26 "divide check" is an error message 17:03:31 ff 17:03:37 too many warnings, bailing out 17:03:43 THAT'S NOT WHAT WARNING MEANS 17:04:02 All this sounds pretty shoddily engineered. Why do people get excited about Plan 9? 17:04:11 because the design is deeply elegant 17:04:18 the implementation is atrocious, though 17:04:36 Lots of designs can be deeply elegant without admitting working implementations. 17:04:41 I know 17:04:55 Why is this one exciting? Because it has an implementation at all, even if it doesn't work very well? 17:05:12 it is basically unix carried through to perfection 17:05:20 and it does actually have an implementation, yes 17:05:30 `Perfection'? 17:05:32 *Riastradh* coughs. 17:05:40 designwise 17:05:53 *everything* is in the file system, so the entire OS is network-transparent 17:06:05 (except things that are not network-transparent by nature, like fork()) 17:06:24 e.g. your keyboard device can be mapped over the network 17:06:37 yep :) 17:12:19 *Elly* mostly likes it because it has a lot of low-hanging fruit for projects :P 17:14:49 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 17:24:51 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:31:27 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-orwdmfjlueqdkxfo] has joined #scheme 17:31:44 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:33:22 elmex_ 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schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:55:02 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:57:34 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:58:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:04 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:05:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:12 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:08:31 Argh. In Git, how do I see the former state of a file that has been renamed since the state I want to see? 20:09:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:21 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:12:29 I figured it out: `git show :'. But now I want to do this with `git annotate', and the same syntax fails. 20:14:26 I have a git expert at work, but it's the evening in this timezone, so he's off somewhere busily not being with his girlfriend, I suspect 20:14:31 I can ask tomorrow! 20:15:08 (Why should the syntax of `git annotate' be so thoroughly different from that of `git show'? Not to mention that there's also `git blame', which seems to differ randomly from `git annotate'.) 20:15:58 I bet he'll have a perfectly good (if totally bizarre) reason ;-) 20:15:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:22 Reason or rationalization? 20:16:26 You say `good' -- I do not think that word means what you think it means. 20:16:36 I've heard a lot of post-facto rationalizations for git's antidesign, but very few reasons. 20:16:38 jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-162.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:42 Indeed. 20:17:47 Riastradh: "perfectly good" carries special ironic connotations. As in, of a person rummaging through a landfill site, "Why did somebody throw out this PERFECTLY GOOD couch? That's a complete waste!" 20:18:24 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:18:32 Yeah, git has a very elegant core architecture, somewhat let down by a rather ad-hoc implementation. Like much of Linus' work ;-) 20:21:24 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:24:11 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:29:18 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:30:51 -!- Dawgmati` [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:17 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:37 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:36:45 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:20 peddie_ [n=peddie@98.210.241.101] has joined #scheme 20:39:16 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:39:34 "elegant"? 20:42:15 "architecture"? 20:43:04 "has" 20:43:08 "git" 20:43:44 "much" 20:43:50 "," 20:44:00 " " 20:44:19 "" 20:44:24 *copumpkin* concedes 20:44:50 *gnomon* examines the package label 20:44:55 "To death, beaten, one horse" 20:45:22 Well, better than a live bobcat. 20:45:24 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-221.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:47 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-221.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:48:12 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48:22 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:48:57 -!- nAgoHaK [n=nagohack@unaffiliated/nagohak] has left #scheme 20:53:22 -!- peddie [n=peddie@98.210.241.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:57:58 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:59:03 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 20:59:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:01 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:02:06 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 21:03:35 -!- samth [n=samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:05:09 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:39 masm [n=masm@bl7-92-158.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 21:07:38 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:09:38 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2009-10/msg00031.html :o 21:10:56 copumpkin: lolwut 21:11:04 beats me 21:15:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:15 *Riastradh* blinks. 21:16:21 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:17:33 Someone left his terminal unlocked... 21:19:41 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:57 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:20:58 peddie [n=peddie@98.210.241.101] has joined #scheme 21:21:52 gnomon: I think it's a way of saying "I don't know how I got on this mailing list, and I don't remember it, so please everyone stop emailing me with stuff I don't want to hear about anymore!!!" 21:22:00 I see this from time to time, and I always boggle. 21:23:35 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 21:26:13 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.93] has joined #scheme 21:26:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:00 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:32:37 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:35:08 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:35:53 -!- peddie_ [n=peddie@98.210.241.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:30 schemer999_ [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:40:49 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:19 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:43:36 If only. 21:43:55 chandler: I would have thought that to be a good explanation, but... http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2009-10/index.html <-- note how many times he posts, and in much better English. 21:44:55 Oh. 21:44:57 I didn't read that far. 21:46:31 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:57 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-65.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 21:50:05 -!- Edico [n=Dezlagra@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:50:06 -!- ASau 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(Connection timed out)] 22:43:10 docgnome [n=docgnome@65.101.144.42] has joined #scheme 22:43:43 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 22:44:13 so.. someone wanna help me understand continuations? I understand cps, which is that you have a callback for functions instead of "just" returning but i don't get first class continuations. do they allow you to wrap up a function with it's state or what? 22:44:28 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:30 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:41 mejja_ [n=root@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:46:41 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:58 (define (cps-call/cc k f) (f k k)) 22:47:04 cause that is what appers to be going on here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuations#Examples 22:48:05 the implementation hides the explicit continuation for everything except call/cc 22:48:09 docgnome: In CPS, you provide each function with its continuation. 22:48:44 They don't have to be callbacks into the function that called the currently executing function. 22:48:59 sure 22:49:03 They could be any continuation going to any place in the code. 22:49:08 That's all first-class continuations are. 22:49:13 oh 22:49:31 They're just continuations that can be passed around. 22:49:33 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:49:41 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:50 Call-with-current-continuation allows us to grab a continuation as a first-class object, viz. a procedure. 22:50:03 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:51:10 so you can go to any arbirtrary place with the state? 22:51:20 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 22:51:23 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-65.res.pomona.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:51:42 i guess that's what confuses me. it's not just a function that you have a handle on, it's the function and state 22:51:43 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:47 docgnome: You can "travel" to any place, but the state may not be the same as when you last went there. 22:51:57 yeah 22:51:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:11 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:52:22 if the state was changed, as in that bit from wikipedia, you'll get whatever the "new" stae is 22:52:48 So, for example, you may have two procedures doing things to a variable and passing control back and forth between themselves. Once procedure may decide to start over and begin again at the top, but the state of the program has changed since then. 22:53:13 I don't like to rely on Wikipedia for my information. 22:53:34 you have something else i can read about continuations then? they just don't seem to click 22:53:37 -!- mejja [n=root@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:53:44 docgnome, Here's a copy of my bookmarks that I had for continuations: http://pastebin.ca/1599883 ... good reading 22:55:29 jrtayloriv: thanks 22:55:47 np 22:55:50 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 22:58:03 -!- zanes [n=zane@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 22:58:20 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-93.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 22:58:55 EleminoP [n=EleminoP@iub-vpn-193-119.noc.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 22:59:32 i need to write a procedure that returns a list of the variables of a let expression 23:05:07 jrtayloriv pasted "EleminoP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88312 23:05:50 heh 23:09:03 oh 23:09:04 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:08 god i'm stupid 23:09:20 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:10:01 well 23:10:45 no, that's not what i meant 23:12:51 that would need to return (x y z) 23:12:55 EleminoP: did you receive the let expression as a list? If so, you can just destructure it using the standard operators, car, cdr, map, etc. 23:13:12 ah 23:13:22 dangit, map is what i was looking for 23:13:23 rudybot: (define L '(let ((x 1) (y 2) (z 3)) blah blah blah)) 23:13:23 zbigniew: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 23:13:29 rudybot: fuck you 23:13:29 zbigniew: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 23:14:00 EleminoP: map is what you want. 23:14:50 Of course, if you didn't know about map, you could write map using car, cdr and cons. 23:17:37 map, eh? 23:17:56 emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:18:17 ed, man 23:20:29 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-92-158.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:21:59 -!- mejja_ [n=root@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:23:24 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057A9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:23:39 -!- ormandj [n=monolith@64.39.5.119] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:26:25 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-221.vinet.ba] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:27:03 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:27:26 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:28:05 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@208.110.0.2] has joined #scheme 23:29:28 masm [n=masm@bl7-92-158.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 23:35:06 schmir` [n=schmir@p54A9065B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:35:38 -!- schmir` [n=schmir@p54A9065B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:05 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 23:43:19 zbigniew 23:48:34 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 23:48:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:20 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-170-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:49:49 i just can't code today it seems 23:50:30 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:57:30 arcfide [i=1000@140-182-146-137.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme