00:00:11 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@pat32.dartmouth-secure.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 00:03:45 thanks for sharing, i've installed noweb and will try it out 00:05:41 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["(call-with-current-continuation sleep)"] 00:26:33 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:27:01 gopher is web 3.0 O:) 00:32:25 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:39:15 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:40:57 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-204-59.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:43:45 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:49:25 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 01:03:36 segoe [i=53e72ee9@gateway/web/freenode/x-gccmxleccdgxsuep] has joined #scheme 01:05:26 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-158.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:39 simon, good grief! What is your disk quota? Fifty megabytes? 01:07:58 Riastradh, 235MB. 01:09:32 Why do you have so little space? 01:11:12 it's my university shell account. my own computer is temporarily out of order. 01:11:37 A complete installation of MIT Scheme on Mac OS X is about forty megabytes. 01:12:02 the source code, when decompressed, was enough to throw off whatever remaining quota I had. 01:12:34 the s9fes, decompressed, took 2.2MB, though. :-P 01:13:20 What did you want the source for? 01:13:33 compilation. 01:14:16 The binary distribtion is capable of compiling your programs; why would you expect the source distribution to be necessary for that? 01:14:20 Distribution, even. 01:14:52 I didn't want to bother finding the binary version compatible with the machine's architecture. 01:16:01 Is it an x86 machine? If so, and if it's newer than probably about 1990, then there is only one distribution. 01:16:20 Note that the source does you no good without the binary anyway. 01:16:36 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:16:36 I am trying to resist the temptation to write "very clever, assclown" on this student's assignment 01:16:47 Elly, what was submitted? 01:16:49 You could rot13 it, Elly. 01:16:56 foo.bar = THREE_ONES; 01:17:08 as a constant name, to avoid using a literal there 01:17:09 hehe 01:17:23 at least it wasn't ONE_ONE_ONE. :) 01:17:29 yeah, but still :P 01:17:34 What was he supposed to do? 01:17:44 maybe it's his attempt of writing pronouncable code. 01:18:06 Riastradh: they know that they are not supposed to inline literals 01:18:12 (for the obvious reasons) 01:18:24 and this person was too lazy to think of what the semantic meaning of the constant was 01:18:31 so they named it after its value and used that everywhere instead 01:20:51 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:21:04 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:26:32 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:28:29 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:57 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 01:37:58 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:39:09 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:32 Man, I wish my professors hung out in IRC channels. 01:45:12 "This student is brilliant! Look at how awesome he is!" 01:45:39 (well, okay, that's so unlikely as to be impossible, but it'd still be pretty neat) 01:51:02 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:52:33 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:02:18 -!- seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:05:08 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:05:16 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:28 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:17:39 xmonader [n=ahmed@196.205.142.48] has joined #scheme 02:26:09 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-147.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:31:59 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-65.res.pomona.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:32:09 eno__ [n=eno@70.137.154.237] has joined #scheme 02:32:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:46:03 " Personally I think that bidirectional I/O devices are a particularly important abstraction." 02:46:13 *foof* takes that quote to the R6RS list 02:46:40 foof: He missed a "not" there. 02:49:13 I didn't read any "not." I'm just a faithful journalist sticking to the facts. 02:49:19 We all know Riastradh likes it both ways. 02:50:12 And *that* went to a conversational place I didn't want to go. 02:50:23 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 02:52:37 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176221143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:36 -!- scorchsaber [n=scorch@user65-127.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:37 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@ip68-111-70-47.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:58:05 O_O 03:02:27 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:01 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #scheme 03:08:16 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:08:52 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176202025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:40 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 03:21:16 -!- xmonader [n=ahmed@196.205.142.48] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:40:40 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:54 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:41:38 mabes_ [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:46:14 -!- mabes_ [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:57:45 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:54 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:09:29 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:04 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 04:13:56 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:20:34 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:25:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:32:48 -!- slxix [n=randy@203.205.117.57] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 04:32:58 slxix [n=randy@203.205.117.57] has joined #scheme 04:38:21 -!- segoe [i=53e72ee9@gateway/web/freenode/x-gccmxleccdgxsuep] has quit ["Page closed"] 04:41:30 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:41:31 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:46:04 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 04:46:15 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:54:08 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:55 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-146-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:57:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 04:59:15 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-202-88.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:02:58 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-241-22.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:19:30 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:49:32 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-118-110-11-115.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:59:21 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:20:32 foof [n=user@FL1-118-110-11-115.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 06:21:22 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:23:36 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 06:28:18 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:31:04 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:34:33 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-105-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:37:12 -!- vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 06:44:03 vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 06:51:15 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:54:05 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-231-131.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 06:59:34 schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:05:50 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-105-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 07:06:05 -!- vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 07:11:04 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-105-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:11:28 in general, why would one want to use let instead of let* ? easier to paralleli why do you want to introduce let* semantics when let semantics are sufficient ? 07:30:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:34:33 -!- Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:36:09 Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #scheme 07:36:16 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 07:38:15 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-164-253.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 07:49:11 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-164-253.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!"] 07:55:09 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:56:03 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 07:56:10 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:58:38 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 08:03:16 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 08:03:36 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@122.110.53.184] has joined #scheme 08:05:17 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:06:11 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-105-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 08:07:23 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:08:46 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 08:09:45 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05613F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:10:11 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:16:19 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:16 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.2.213] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:58 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-105-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:21:08 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:31 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:24:17 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 08:27:11 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 08:41:13 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:41:51 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:47:01 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-123.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:57:18 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:59:28 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 09:01:46 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-29-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:30 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:18:46 ejs [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 09:23:32 masm [n=masm@85.240.195.233] has joined #scheme 09:27:35 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 09:32:44 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:10 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 09:54:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-253.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 09:58:32 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 10:01:26 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:52 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 10:07:07 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 10:08:14 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:14:18 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:22:27 BACOON [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #scheme 10:22:34 sstrickl_ [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:27:38 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 10:30:13 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:33:23 -!- Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:48 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:39:21 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:39:21 -!- sstrickl_ is now known as sstrickl 10:47:38 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.241.206] has joined #scheme 11:04:09 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.241.206] has quit [] 11:13:20 Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 11:23:19 ejs1 [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 11:31:44 Dr_Betruger [n=chatzill@196.40.38.144] has joined #scheme 11:31:48 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-253.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:21 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-253.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 11:37:40 Hi, how can I "remove" the #\ in a char?, need to convert (#\1 #\2 #\3 #\4 #\5) -> (1 2 3 4 5) 11:39:02 I use DrScheme (r5rs) 11:41:57 rudybot: eval (map (lambda (c) (string->number (string c))) '(#\1 #\2 #\3 #\4 #\5)) 11:41:59 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 11:41:59 eli: ; Value: (1 2 3 4 5) 11:42:31 rudybot: eval (map (lambda (c) (- (char->integer c) (char->integer #\0))) '(#\1 #\2 #\3 #\4 #\5)) 11:42:31 eli: ; Value: (1 2 3 4 5) 11:42:37 Dr_Betruger: Like that. 11:43:21 Does r5rs say anything about the execution charset? 11:44:25 a little, enough to guarantee that the second version works 11:44:59 Admittedly, I don't know any charset where it doesn't 11:45:33 I thought, can't find it though 11:45:39 thanks eli, u r my hero 11:46:24 Jafet: I'm not sure that it makes the second version work. (But hukairs.) 11:47:50 hmm, near the top of 6.3.4 it makes some guarantees, but maybe they are not strong enough 11:49:43 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-253.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:50:18 it seems only the order is guaranteed, not the values 11:50:52 eli: how about remove #\ of any char? (#\a #\b #\c) -> (a b c) 11:51:31 rudybot: eval (map (lambda (c) (string->symbol (string c))) '(#\1 #\2 #\3 #\4 #\5)) 11:51:32 eli: ; Value: (|1| |2| |3| |4| |5|) 11:51:42 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 11:51:43 rudybot: eval (map (lambda (c) (string->symbol (string c))) '(#\a #\b #\c)) 11:51:43 eli: ; Value: (a b c) 11:52:30 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:52:32 -!- Jafet1 is now known as jafet 11:53:13 sstrickl_ [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 11:54:02 thanks again :) 11:54:41 Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 12:02:48 -!- Dr_Betruger [n=chatzill@196.40.38.144] has left #scheme 12:03:16 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:07 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:07 -!- sstrickl_ is now known as sstrickl 12:11:55 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #scheme 12:15:07 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 12:15:18 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:18:33 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-104.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 12:52:40 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05613F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:52:40 -!- snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:52:40 -!- pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:52:40 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:53:57 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05613F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:53:57 snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 12:53:57 pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 12:53:57 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 12:55:40 Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 13:02:57 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-209-40.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 13:04:07 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:15 -!- snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:24:00 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:24:10 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 13:31:51 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-42-27.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:31:53 snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 13:42:33 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:48:16 Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 13:48:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:57:55 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 14:03:38 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:44 seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:13:14 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:19:43 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176221143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:48 kenjin [n=kenjin@163.152.180.181] has joined #scheme 14:21:09 -!- kenjin is now known as Guest37295 14:22:25 -!- Guest37295 is now known as kenjin2 14:49:41 jedc [n=jedc@c-67-171-246-227.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:53:55 -!- seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:05:39 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:07:43 pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 15:08:47 -!- pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has left #scheme 15:10:40 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:11:41 vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:13:07 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:20:33 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:23:38 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@unaffiliated/ada2358] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:29 seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:29:01 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:11 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:58 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 15:48:55 Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 15:49:03 ejs1 [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 15:51:49 weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 15:55:45 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:55 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 16:00:53 -!- jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@cpe-69-205-162-163.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:23 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:22 -!- ejs [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:34 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:55 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 16:18:17 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05613F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:22:33 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:16 jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@69.205.162.163] has joined #scheme 16:34:43 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 16:35:00 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:23 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:52 Awesome! 8 hours of research finally netted me the identity of the "wizard" on the cover of SICP 16:50:15 who is it? 16:50:21 vatsal [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has joined #scheme 16:52:35 Hermes 16:52:46 and the other guy on the cover is Raymond Lull 16:52:53 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 16:53:31 hermes the messenger? 16:53:47 The very same. 16:54:19 Whose name also appears in the term hermeneutics, the study of interpretation. 17:02:15 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:04:18 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:09:40 -!- vatsal [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:00 vatsal [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has joined #scheme 17:12:00 what book ar eyou guys talking about? 17:12:10 -!- jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:37 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 17:15:36 moooooo [n=mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:17:51 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 17:26:38 -!- snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:26:38 -!- pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:26:38 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:28:34 seanstickle: Where did you find out about it? 17:28:55 snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 17:28:55 pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 17:28:55 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 17:29:02 sjamaan: that the two guys on the cover are Hermes and Raymond Llull. 17:29:39 Well, and also, that the lambda in the fire used to be a salamander. 17:29:48 But that was just a bonus. 17:30:03 No, _where_ did you find out about this? 17:30:14 sjamaan: oh, sorry 17:30:19 sjamaan: misread your post 17:30:47 sjamaan: from Paul Lacroix's 1851 treatise "Le Moyen Âge et à la Renaissance" 17:31:03 Oops sorry 17:31:11 The 1871 treatise "Sciences & lettres au moyen age et a l'époque de la renaissance" 17:31:15 The 1851 was a diversion. 17:31:27 Wow, how did you manage to go from SICP to that? 17:32:04 sjamaan: A lot of research on medieval woodcuts. 17:32:14 sjamaan: which took me the better part of 8 hours. 17:32:24 *sjamaan* admires your dedication 17:32:45 Now if I could only use that dedication to learn Scheme better. :) 17:33:08 :) 17:36:29 ejs [n=eugen@91-216-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 17:37:57 -!- pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:57 -!- snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:57 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:40:06 snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 17:40:06 pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 17:40:06 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 17:40:43 -!- ejs [n=eugen@91-216-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:45:02 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:40 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:47:44 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:47:53 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:48:21 Hrm! 17:48:57 Riastradh: all problems are because Scheme doesn't have natural equivalents to "car" and "cdr" like CL. ;) 17:49:20 -!- pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:49:20 -!- snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:49:20 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:49:42 snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 17:49:42 pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 17:49:42 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 17:50:02 Your translation would be more impressive, if Scheme had "first" and "rest". 17:51:00 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 17:53:11 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:51 -!- pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:53:51 -!- snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:53:51 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:54:05 snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 17:54:05 pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 17:54:05 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 17:57:23 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-123.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:40 Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 18:01:40 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-123.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:03:14 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:36 -!- pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:03:36 -!- snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:03:36 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:03:58 -!- schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:04:22 snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 18:04:22 pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 18:04:22 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 18:05:32 'In a Scheme system that has a module or package system, these procedures should be contained in a module named "list-lib".' 18:05:40 *sjamaan* wonders if anyone actually does that 18:05:45 (this is from srfi-1) 18:06:06 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:48 -!- pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:10:48 -!- snurble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:10:48 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:17:49 vatsal_ [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has joined #scheme 18:17:49 -!- vatsal [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:29:09 sjamaan: probably everyone refers to srfis by number 18:29:30 sjamaan: which has been a bit confusing to me as a beginner cannot tell what a srfi number stands for 18:30:39 It's like the joke about the prisoners telling jokes by number. 18:30:54 sjamaan: SRFI-97 specifies a list of R6RS library names for SRFIs 18:31:58 -!- vatsal_ [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has quit [] 18:36:21 offby1: heh 18:37:19 offby1: sjamaan on the other hand a srfi number uniquely refers to a specific approach whereas list-lib may be a different library about lists altogehter. That would be the main reason it has not happened 18:55:52 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:25 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 19:10:30 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-105-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 19:11:26 emma [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-rbncuyedhwrnnzif] has joined #scheme 19:12:04 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 19:12:14 under r6rs modules, is there a way to define modules a & b s.t. they're "friends" like module a can access the non-exported functions of module b? (i.e. suppose b is th model and 'a' is some renderer, i'd like module a to cces ssome internals of module b) 19:14:13 -!- emma [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-rbncuyedhwrnnzif] has left #scheme 19:16:46 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #scheme 19:18:33 emma [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-rbncuyedhwrnnzif] has joined #scheme 19:18:36 test 19:18:55 emma: Your test failed. :-( 19:18:57 Hi everyone. I dont mean for this to seem like spamming but this may be one of the most logical channels to find people interested. 19:19:12 Im starting a study group (which will meet here on Freenode once a week) for working through SICP 19:19:32 If anyone would like to join in on that, we are having our first meeting in about 10 minutes. 19:20:00 lowlycoder: Under some module systems it is possible to define multiple collections of exports. Using one of those, you could export a "public API" collection and an "internals" collection. 19:20:29 hmm, i think the solution may have to be 19:20:33 module all-of-a 19:20:40 module public-a (implorting all-of-a, exporting a limited subset) 19:20:49 module b (importing all-of-a) ; and thus having access to internals 19:21:03 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 19:24:17 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-105-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:27:16 schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:29:00 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:31:29 -!- kenjin2 [n=kenjin@163.152.180.181] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:03 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-38-205.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 19:38:52 -!- seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:40:01 ASau, what do you mean that Scheme doesn't have natural equivalents to CAR and CDR? 19:40:39 (I'd have thrown more Russian into that translation fest if I remembered more, by the way. I hope I didn't screw up saying `I lose'; that would be pathetic.) 19:42:08 ASau, oh, I see. 19:42:17 Natural language equivalents. 19:42:58 Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:43:12 mongooseWA [n=mongoose@c-24-18-238-230.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:43:46 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:13 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 19:49:57 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-42-27.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:18 emma: there was a ##sicp channel 19:51:27 -!- schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:51:43 in fact there still is. 19:51:46 Yeah. They are alrady far ahead though. 19:51:47 Our favorite bot lurks there 19:51:57 We started a new group in ##club-classroom 19:52:04 splitters! 19:52:08 offby1: yeah i was going to ask you if you would put rudy in ##club-classroom 19:52:13 F***ing People's Front of SICP 19:52:20 sure 19:52:23 thanks 19:55:16 tjafk [n=timj@e176212117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 20:00:02 vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:00:05 hi 20:00:23 is there a decent scheme->javascript translater? 20:01:19 Not what you're looking for, but slightly related: http://www.crockford.com/javascript/little.html 20:02:34 vixey: it's possible that "hop" (http://hop.inria.fr) has something like that 20:05:17 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 20:13:51 vixey: http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2006/05/lightweight-threads-in-browser.html and http://www.omnigia.com/scheme/cpscm/home/ are the ones I know of, plus what offby1 said; HOP also has one 20:14:03 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 20:15:18 thanks 20:17:59 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 20:18:05 pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 20:21:01 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-209-40.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:35 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:27:59 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 20:29:29 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:59 seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:18 emmy [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-bafbwbdxxukaovjd] has joined #scheme 20:33:49 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 20:33:55 -!- emma [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-rbncuyedhwrnnzif] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:00 -!- emmy is now known as emma 20:34:20 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 20:35:31 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [] 20:37:03 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 20:38:18 -!- moooooo is now known as MononcQc 20:40:21 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@ip68-111-70-47.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:12 I love how r6rs-discuss goes as silent as the tomb over the weekend. I can't believe I'm actually the only one with no work/life separation! 20:49:34 I can't believe there are actually people who are on r6rs-discuss for work! 20:49:42 Lucky fuckers :) 20:50:38 Well, can you imagine having a job whose continuance is predicated on the quality of the next Scheme report? I certainly shouldn't want such a job... 20:51:18 haha 20:51:23 Good point ;) 20:52:08 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-101-56.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:56:35 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 20:59:01 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-101-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:31 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:03:19 you think #scheme is quiet? #jsoftware is dead pretty much all the time. 21:03:33 No, not #scheme, but the r6rs-discuss mailing list. 21:03:43 Ah, misread. 21:03:53 -!- copumpkin is now known as DistributiveLett 21:04:21 -!- DistributiveLett is now known as copumpkin 21:04:32 Are you following r7rs^Wr6rs-discuss, Riastradh? I've not seen you weigh into any debates yet, which is most out of character compared to how you are here, unless you're under some pen-name I don't recognise :-) 21:04:51 No. I think it is a total catastrophe. 21:05:30 I think it has the potential to be a total catastrophe, but isn't necessarily so. Some good points are being brought out; it's just hard to deal with all the people who have trouble separating interface and implementation. 21:08:12 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-123.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:08:13 I have really been quite surprised by the level of misunderstanding of this basic fact, and what the meaning of a language specification is 21:08:33 A lot of people have trouble with disconnection from reality, too. 21:08:41 That tends to interfere with the flow of discussion. 21:09:05 I guess I'm used to talking to people who are disconnected from reality, it doesn't bother me ;-) 21:09:25 Assuming I'm connected to reality, that is. Could I tell if I wasn't? 21:10:09 That question is tough to fish. 21:10:36 Afish, afish, afish, afish; I wonder where my fish has gone? 21:10:49 :) 21:10:58 *alaricsp* hides under his towel 21:13:15 You put it in your ear, didn't you alaricsp? 21:13:57 *that's* why I can understand you, even though you're Dutch! 21:14:13 aha! 21:14:19 It all makes sense now 21:19:59 -!- mongooseWA [n=mongoose@c-24-18-238-230.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:22:08 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05613F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:24:37 While sitting on a train yesterday, on a whim, I started re-implementing my old second-class-macros system I designed at University with some recent new improvements I've thought of 21:24:54 I'm going to make environments available as first-class objects inside macros, so that hygiene can be implemented 21:25:03 Like syntactic closures? 21:25:06 I *think* it'll work, but am not making any promises yet ;-) 21:25:11 Yes, very similarly 21:25:40 I can tell you right now that syntactic closures do work to implement macros. 21:25:51 Yes, there is certainly evidence to that effect! 21:26:41 Whether it'll all fit into the bizarre world of macros being first-class as long as they're all gone when macroexpansion is done (eg, they can all be expanded without needing any run-time information) or not, remains to be seen 21:26:55 I'll publish my code if I ever get to finish it 21:28:11 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-65.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 21:29:39 The principle is simple: If you constrain side-effects (which is where it breaks from normal Scheme), you can partially evaluate whole subexpressions if all their free variables can be traced to constant bindings, at compile time. 21:29:39 If you introduce fexpr-esque first-class macros into this partial evaluation world, but make it a grave error to have any fexpr values surviving past the macro-expansion phase, you can do crazy first-class-macro tricks while still making sure the result of macroexpansion is a program you can actually compile. 21:31:24 Can a human reader easily understand what is going on? 21:31:57 I find myself wondering, though, whether it's a good or bad idea to let macros inspect the contents of environments, or just force them to attach them to symbols in the result of the macro, like synclo macros. Letting them (eg) extract lists of lexical bindings has the alluring smell of power, but is it a dangerous power? 21:32:27 Well, as usual, it's possible to do obfuscated things, and it's possible to do non-obfuscated things. Whether it encourages good behaviour or not remains to be seen. 21:32:47 It's hard to tell how much power is too much power 21:33:29 Until you've unleased it on Average Developers, at least ;-) 21:33:34 There's no such thing as too much power 21:34:24 Well, let me clarify myself. I think there's such a thing as a system that gives you too much power to do stupid things, and not enough power to do the right thing. 21:34:41 agreed 21:34:52 C is a case in point, I think; it's easy to ignore return values of functions, and harder to check for error returns and then clean up properly and pass the error up. 21:35:16 So it requires discipline to write good code, rather than good code being the naturally easiest way of doing it. 21:35:39 aye 21:35:47 We certainly don't want that for Scheme 21:36:04 Bachonasair [n=baconize@17-173-223-66.gci.net] has joined #scheme 21:36:34 -!- Bachonasair is now known as Baconizer 21:37:39 Languages with exceptions and GC (or a vague approximation thereof, as C++ has) make the easiest way of reporting errors also the safest way 21:37:54 This is a worthy meta-goal for language designers 21:41:50 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:56 imho, getting the most out of exceptions is something several langs get wrong 21:42:23 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:43:03 I'm not sure what the most out of exceptions really is 21:43:19 alaricsp: What C++ has is not an approximation of GC, but an approximation of UNWIND-PROTECT. 21:43:31 I liked Dylan's restartable exceptions, that seemed like a neat idea, except that it did seem to complicate things a bit 21:43:56 sorry, I'm thinking of scope - try { } catch { }* finally {} 21:44:08 Restartable exceptions are conditions, and Dylan's design derives from Common Lisp. Kent Pitman's article on CL conditions is worth reading, if you're interested in this sort of thing. 21:44:29 Resources inside the scope of try are "invisible" to the catch clauses 21:44:34 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 21:44:36 chandler: Yes, that's right, but they try and produce some of the effects of GC by unwind-protecting their allocations 21:44:41 chandler: Thanks, I'll read that! 21:46:06 nyom, nyom, more brain food 21:47:39 alaricsp: I think it's really an orthogonal matter to GC. You could just as easily say that a language in which all objects are stack allocated and everything is by-value is garbage collected. Certainly { foo& bar = new foo(); try { ... } catch (...) { ... } } does not involve any GC-style behavior. 21:47:43 Does anyone know if SML's "handle" form creates a new scope? 21:48:52 Of course there are things like auto_ptr & friends, but these are really just ways of using stack allocation lifetime semantics with heap allocated storage. 21:49:15 chandler: Depends how you define GC, doesn't it? If you never need to deallocate things by hand, and never have dangling references, things can be allocated dynamically to some degree (recursion with lexical scope being perhaps a simple case) but space isn't leaked, then it's certainly automatically cleaning up your garbage for you in some way ;-) 21:49:20 What do you mean by `creates a new scope', Summermute? 21:49:39 I think there's reference-counting smart pointers available for C++, which would certainly stray into crude GC territory, no? 21:49:52 No. 21:50:04 `Reference counting' and `GC' don't belong in the same sentence without an odd number of negatives. 21:50:34 Riastradh: expr handle | clause | clause .... Are variables bound in "expr" bound in the "clause"s ? 21:50:44 -!- BACOON [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:57 I think we're just arguing definitions here, are we not? :-) 21:51:32 The expression and the right-hand sides of the clauses are all evaluated in the same lexical environment, I believe, if that's what you're asking, Summermute. 21:51:59 No, sorry, that's not right. 21:52:16 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:52:23 The right-hand sides of the clauses are evaluated in the enclosing lexical environment, extended by the variables bound in the left-hand patterns, of course. 21:52:27 alaricsp: Dynamic-extent variable lifetimes with by-value (copying) semantics certainly can be safe-for-space, but I would hesitate to call it a form of garbage collection. Ultimately it is a degenerate form of reference counting where no object has more than one live reference. 21:52:36 Riastradh: If so, that gives the handlers a chance at mucking around with screwed up resources (source of many exceptions), doing cleanup, frobbing and trying again, etc. 21:53:05 I believe SML implements aborting semantics for signalling exceptions, Summermute. 21:53:50 ,exit 21:53:52 ...er, wrong window. 21:54:12 segoe [n=segoe@83.231.39.54] has joined #scheme 21:54:48 chandler: I agree on all points (I even agree that you'd hesitate to call it a form of GC ;-); I suspect I just have a more forgiving definition of GC in mind, perhaps any system that automatically deduces some kind of end-of-life for objects and frees them up. And I'm not claiming my definition of GC is in any way superior to anybody else's ;-) 21:55:27 Riastradh: In C++ and Java the other hand, the only way to give the main try{} block logic and the catch {} handlers access to the same resources (file handles, DB stuff) is to make them all global and null, init them in the try block, test for null in the catch blocks (and the finally block for that matter) - it get's ugly, laborious and very error prone. 21:55:43 How is that different from SML, Summermute? 21:56:00 It's the same in Scheme, too. 21:56:07 Riastradh: what's aborting semantics? 21:56:18 Signalling a condition unwinds the stack up to the handler. 21:56:36 Oh, gotcha. 21:56:37 The alternative is to not unwind the stack on signalling a condition, and to let handlers do that themselves. 21:56:49 If the stack is unwound, the handler has no chance to procure a stack trace. 21:56:57 (or enter a debugger in the appropriate environment, &c.) 21:57:18 Roger that 21:57:25 Ala CL? 21:57:29 No. 21:57:47 I mean: Common Lisp does not have aborting semantics for signallign conditions. 21:57:50 Whoops (geek ego bruised) 21:57:59 I think the answer to "Ala CL?" is "yes". 21:58:08 Oh, good 21:58:21 Sorry, I misguessed what `Ala CL?' was referring to. 21:58:28 What was it referring to? 21:58:50 I always used the term "resumable" to describe CL conditions 21:59:14 Why not `restartable'? 21:59:27 Anyway, that's a different issue from aborting semantics. 21:59:42 Riastradh: Ala CL refered to the non-aborting semantics you described 21:59:50 Ah, OK. 22:00:00 In that case, chandler is right. 22:01:32 I guess I'm wondering why try, catch and finally clauses have to all introduce new scopes in the design of the current C++ style exception handling system 22:02:18 You didn't answer my question of how the scope is any different between C++, Scheme, and SML. 22:02:35 Especially when what the catch and finally clauses typically want to do is frob resources initialized in the try clause 22:02:37 Non-aborting semantics are sufficient to provide restarts. Typically, restarts in Common Lisp are just a table of symbols to thunks bound as a special variable. 22:03:32 Summermute: If you have a sequence of variables declarations with initializers, and one of them throws an exception, what's the state of the remaining variables after it in the try block?\ 22:03:50 Riastradh: Scheme - no diff, just uses cute lambdas instead of syntax. As for SML, that was the nature of my question regarding 'handle' and scoping. 22:03:54 The catch block won't be able to make any assumptions about those 22:05:20 Summermute, suppose I translat ` handle | | ...' into `with_handler (fn | ...) (fn () )'. 22:06:39 sjamaan: That's a good question. I prefer a syntax such as with x = foo; y = bar do blah. Which just blows up into with ... with .... - meaning each resource gets one with/resource clause to safely cleanup without running into the very problem you describe. 22:06:46 Sorry for the ramble 22:07:47 Summermute: Where does the catch come in? 22:09:00 It's not syntax that's the problem, it's simply the fact that you have a bunch of variable declarations all lumped together, halfway through which an exception might occur 22:09:20 If you don't lump them together, you need a catch statement per declaration 22:10:41 Sorry again - with foo = init() do expr would initialize some resource foo and ensure its cleanup - just a generalization of with-open-input-file and such like. 22:11:30 You were talking about variable scope, not variable cleanup 22:11:52 So doing this safely, esecially in a language where nulls are deprecated (the one I'm working on), there are scoping issues regarding foo and whatever cleanup clauses (for catch and for finally) have to be present 22:13:35 Can you give a concrete example? 22:14:34 Riastradh: Then that would make SML's scoping issues between the body and the exception handlers the same as, say, Java's. 22:17:36 sjamaan: well, it's one of the areas where I'm a bit stuck in my work - coming up with a set of unwind/protect and try/catch primitives that can handle a language where foo = None is simply not allowed in most circumstances ( f : Foo is a different type from the "Noneable" type f : ? Foo ) 22:19:17 I know (and have too many times) how to work around the issues in languages like C++ or Java. But my new "None-not-friendly" typed language is giving me a few fits (along with a few other design criteria/goals thrown into the mix) 22:19:22 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:20:11 Sorry, I've taken this a bit far afield of Scheme 22:26:07 -!- emma [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-bafbwbdxxukaovjd] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:00 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:30:04 sjamaan: "If you don't lump together, you need a catch statement per declaration" - Exactly! The user may not see this, but the main "safe" variable intitialization special form expands into just this - a catch and finally per declaration. Akin to let* expanding into a series of nested let's. 22:34:01 On a different topic, I'm genuinely interested (with roughly 20 years since I last frobbed SCM and SLIB) - where is scheme going? Are we going to build browsers or word processors in scheme, or will it become the new CL for certain types of mostly academic projects, or is it is tiny language for teaching and maybe embedding/scripting? 22:35:22 Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #scheme 22:43:27 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:44:25 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:44:27 Makoryu: "trouble" ? 22:44:54 Lemurian_: "Makoryu"? 22:45:03 -!- Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has left #scheme 22:45:33 ¯\O_o/¯ 22:48:45 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 22:51:41 -!- eno__ [n=eno@70.137.154.237] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:43 Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #scheme 23:00:24 In SICP a process is described to be similar to a routine/function, is that what this is? 23:02:26 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@ip68-111-70-47.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:06:55 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 23:10:53 or am I missing something 23:11:04 because I thought the process was the executable being actively run 23:11:09 Makoryu: ? 23:11:53 I dunno lol 23:12:40 I thought you were some erheet lisper 23:13:08 I haven't read my SICP today 23:13:18 So I'm not clear if you mean an OS process or something else 23:13:39 oh you're reading sicp? 23:13:48 Nope 23:14:08 hmm 23:15:26 Makoryu: maybe you should 23:17:46 mabes [n=mabes@166.70.220.118] has joined #scheme 23:20:02 heh 23:21:03 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05613F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:24:25 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:30:04 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 23:30:26 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #scheme 23:46:39 Lemurian_: SICP has its own definition for "computer" so it gets really metaphysical in that sense. 23:48:59 ah 23:49:03 gay 23:49:03 thanks 23:55:50 -!- Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has quit ["Leaving"]