00:02:43 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 00:02:54 after a format 00:02:59 do i need to do some type of flush? 00:03:04 to force the output? 00:03:14 -!- tali713 [n=user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #scheme 00:03:55 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:04:51 oh, forgot the #t 00:08:53 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 00:09:15 -!- Adman65_ [n=Adman65@m3e0436d0.tmodns.net] has left #scheme 00:09:38 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:38 -!- annodomini_ is now known as annodomini 00:16:26 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 00:24:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:40 emma [n=620e9a47@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-splapnbmpyoyhlxk] has joined #scheme 00:24:54 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:28:42 *jcowan* checks MWDEU 00:28:44 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 00:31:07 Riastradh: I think in that sentence "participation from" is the best you can do, but either "the participation of" or "input from" would have been better. 00:37:27 I don't think "input from" makes any sense, common usage notwithstanding. 00:39:58 mdg_ [n=mdg@unaffiliated/mgroman] has joined #scheme 00:41:15 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.68.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:06 Why not? 00:44:50 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:49:08 You don't get input *from* something. You get output from something, or give input to something. 00:50:09 It's one of those linguistic oddities that, unless you knew what common phrase was being elided, would just seem to be confusing. 00:50:22 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:53:59 What? `This procedure reads input from the user.' 00:58:08 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:38 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:58:57 Quite, but what it reads is the output of the user (conceived as a process). 00:59:07 It's one of those things, like incall and outcall. 00:59:32 `We need Jonathan's input.' `We need the input of Jonathan.' 01:00:03 Or credit and debit, for that matter. Your bank calls withdrawals debits and deposits credits, but that is properly *their* viewpoint: when *you* withdraw money, you debit your cash account. 01:00:21 s/debit your cash account/credit your cash account 01:00:56 And when you pay for something with cash, you debit your cash account. 01:01:21 01:06:52 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 01:08:17 -!- charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has quit [] 01:09:39 charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has joined #scheme 01:09:46 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Back in a big bit"] 01:10:38 -!- mdg_ is now known as mdg 01:11:49 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 01:14:07 Do you have an opinion on module naming, jcowan? 01:19:37 arcfide [i=1000@140-182-145-218.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 01:19:51 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 01:28:39 kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fugrybpbuoiatmem] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:30:22 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:33:54 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 01:34:06 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 01:40:49 Riastradh: I'm inclined to accept the R6RS name framework (names are lists of identifiers) supplemented by a Java-style convention. I don't have problems with setting up conventions of how module code is to be stored, but I don't want them in the standard either. 01:41:16 I would cheerfully name my modules (org ccil cowan whatsit) 01:42:34 kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:43:48 camio [n=d@72.226.208.34] has joined #scheme 01:44:15 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:47:55 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 01:52:11 jcowan: I think it ought to be enough to have a single unique namer at the start without having to dedicate three symbols to the task. 01:52:18 s/namer/symbol/ 01:52:56 Well, I could use (info tagsoup whatsit), I suppose. ccil.org is a shared resource. 01:53:36 We established a Java-package convention years ago: org.ccil. 01:54:06 The main point is that it piggybacks on the DNS, so you are *very* unlikely to get a collision. Which I hold to be good. 01:56:00 AFAIK nobody else on ccil.org writes Java, but there's always a first time. 02:02:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 02:03:27 kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:14:46 jcowan, it would be nice if #x1.234567890abcdefp-4 would give me a floating-point number with significand as specified in hexadecimal and base-sixteen exponent of -4. 02:15:15 I see little hope of that. 02:15:28 A lot of Scheme systems go to a lot of effort to implement hairy algorithms to map between binary floating-point values and decimal string representations. None of that effort is necessary for hexadecimal string representations. 02:15:41 (That, or the Scheme system doesn't go to much effort, and loses badly as a consequence.) 02:15:47 Oh. Why base 16? 02:16:07 I think only z-series (aka 360/70/80/90) IBM boxen still use base 16. 02:16:10 We already have notation for it (#x), and it works nicely with binary floating-point values. 02:16:23 There is precedent for using `p', too: C does it. 02:16:32 No, I mean why is the exponent to the base 16? The base 2 is normal. 02:17:03 i.e. numbers are mantissa * 2^exponent, not mantissa * 16^exponent. 02:19:49 Oh, sorry, yes: I meant base-two exponent. 02:20:00 Okay. 02:20:34 One advantage of direct hex dump is that you can represent every possible NaN distinctly. 02:21:33 Anyway, why do you see little hope of this? 02:21:46 -!- arcfide [i=1000@140-182-145-218.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 02:24:31 Poople-doop... Er, I mean, see my latest posting on standardization as a conservative activity. 02:25:15 Write up a SRFI, and (if I get my way) the R8RS committee will consider it, if it has big enough uptake across R5RS/R6RS/R7RS systems. 02:31:00 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 02:46:38 *jcowan* looks around suspiciously to see where offby1 planted the grave accent. 02:46:53 Six feet under, obviously. 02:50:00 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-231-131.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:50:03 Rather deep for such a tiny diacritic. 02:50:21 Six cm would be more than enough. 02:50:24 Must have bothered him quite a bit. 02:50:26 -!- bweaver [n=user@24-247-129-155.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:52:21 Or, write up a SRFI and work *really hard* to get it widely accepted in time for R7RS. 02:53:05 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176206194.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:10 é 02:53:26 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 02:54:54 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:18 kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:52 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060013464aedc3.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:58 -!- MononcQc [n=mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING NEXT VERSION OF INTERNET"] 03:06:29 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:06:56 kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:07:22 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:09:31 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176201018.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:15:25 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:15:42 Die, fiend! 03:15:46 Ackpth! 03:15:52 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["*blorp*"] 03:16:11 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 03:16:23 *Riastradh* prevails. 03:16:36 ...but I'm still losing to Verizon. 03:22:01 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 03:22:07 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:22:17 is there a variant of map that guarantees sequential ececution? 03:22:32 kmurph79_ [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:13 -!- mdg [n=mdg@unaffiliated/mgroman] has quit [] 03:23:20 optimizer, MAP-IN-ORDER from SRFI 1 does. 03:23:28 Well, built-in MAP does, too. 03:23:39 It's just not specified what the sequence is. 03:24:06 hmm; so if I execute it twice; i'm guaranteed to get the same results? 03:25:53 Only if the mapped procedure is functional. 03:26:40 To be precise: if you apply MAP twice to the same procedure that has no side effects, without incurring other side effects in the time intervening the two invocations of MAP, then you will get the same results. 03:26:59 Or, if the procedure you pass to MAP is unaffected by any side effects, then there can be side effects in the intervening time. 03:28:51 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-231-131.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 03:28:59 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:34:16 But map-in-order makes a stronger guarantee: that the order of calls is the same as the order of elements in the list. 03:34:54 Riastradh, do you know of any map implementations that in fact execute other than in order? 03:36:19 Yes. 03:36:43 (define (map f l) (if (null-list? l) '() (cons (f (car l)) (map f (cdr l] 03:37:16 Not what I mean. I mean any Scheme implementations whose default implementations of map are other than in-order. 03:37:18 In some Scheme systems (SISC, MIT Scheme's interpreter, &c.), this will apply the procedure in the reverse order of the list. 03:38:37 It's straightforward to write a bug-flushing implementation that creates a vector, shuffles the vector, and then calls vector-map. 03:38:57 I don't know of any Scheme system that does that. 03:44:46 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:46:34 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:34 -!- kmurph79_ is now known as kmurph79 03:48:33 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:49:03 Hey late night Schemers, how do folks feel about the relative "health" of Scheme vs. Common Lisp, where health means community, commercial use, quality of implementations, any other "tools" or environment issues, IDE availability/quality, standards, libraries, portable libraries, and what not, yada yada yada???? 03:50:54 "Sir, there is no settling the point of precedency between a louse and a flea." --Dr. Johnson, when asked if he thought Smart's or Derrick's poetry the greater. 03:51:10 scheme is like roachess; each implementation is weak, but trying to kill them all is hard 03:51:30 ;-) 03:51:39 In order, then. 03:51:43 Nah, they're both weevils. I prefer to use the lesser of two weevils. 03:51:46 I don't know which community is the less pathological. 03:52:02 Commercial use is probably dominated by CL, which has fewer implementations and more libraries. 03:52:07 xmonader [n=ahmed@196.205.141.2] has joined #scheme 03:52:11 Quality of implementations is high on both sides. 03:52:20 Both share an excellent IDE, emacs. 03:52:46 i use vim 03:52:47 The CL standard is large but can't be easily extended: Scheme's standardization process is splitting the language into "small" and "large" variants. 03:53:01 optimizer: I don't use IDEs either, but that's the answer to the question. I use "ex". 03:53:04 With some custom ide for Allegro and Harlequin (Chez?) 03:53:09 True. 03:53:20 CL is too big to be practical; scheme is too small to be practical. 03:53:30 Quality of implementations is high on both sides? 03:53:33 CL is hardly too big to be practical in the age of Java. 03:53:41 If you say so... 03:53:43 Riastradh: Compared to the state of the art elsewhere, yes. 03:53:44 Agreed. 03:53:45 jcowan: you must use clojure 03:53:51 jcowan: s/use/love/ 03:54:03 I mean, Perl is a perfect implementation of Perl, by definition. 03:54:14 And Python and Ruby are still basically defined by one specific implementation. 03:54:20 Most of CL and Scheme are what would have been called "libraries" just 20 or so years ago. 03:54:22 I neither use it nor love it, optimizer. 03:54:29 I was interested in it at one time, but not later. 03:54:53 jcowan: same here; what turned you off? (for me, it was the lack of continuations, tail calloptimixation, and hard to interface with C via jni) 03:55:37 Same reason I didn't like Arc, the arbitrary abandonment of history for no countervailing benefit except that then he could attract the cool kids by saying "Not Lisp, see?" 03:55:55 His answer to tail calls is that the JVM should do them, and that *is* coming along nicely as a result. 03:56:00 I don't want to count language features, but modules trump packages imho 03:56:18 I agree with that. Scheme has a higher intellectual base, you might say. 03:56:48 oh; i also forgot, clojure exception = java exception -> no way to resume 03:56:56 Quite. 03:56:59 Or maybe it's just continued to evolve (much to the chagrin of most Scheme users LOL) 03:57:07 Anyhow, I must go. 03:57:13 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:58:41 One thing i do like about CL is a good number of x-platform down-to-the machine code compilers. 03:59:15 I should have said, "at least a few" :-) 03:59:31 Oh, and they finally have a standard CFFI 04:00:15 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:10:13 -!- charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has quit [] 04:10:58 charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has joined #scheme 04:11:44 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:12:13 kmurph79_ [n=kmurph79@98.185.210.202] has joined #scheme 04:12:13 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12:22 -!- kmurph79_ is now known as kmurph79 04:14:02 kmurph79_ [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 04:14:07 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@98.185.210.202] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:11 -!- kmurph79_ is now known as kmurph79 04:19:04 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has quit [] 04:21:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:22:16 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 04:26:04 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 04:27:12 in r6rs, suppose I have a (define-record-type model ..) 04:27:16 and I do a make-model 04:27:31 is there any6 function foo s.t. (foo (make-model ...)) returns 'model or model ... or anything that indicates the type? 04:27:49 model? returns a #t #f ... but I want a function taht returns me the name I used for define-record-type 04:28:10 What do you want that for? 04:28:21 Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #scheme 04:29:10 (RECORD-TYPE-NAME (RECORD-RTD )) will give it to you, unless you defined the record type as opaque. 04:32:49 Riastradh: dispatching on the type of the object 04:32:52 s/object/record 04:33:21 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:34:47 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:34:48 -!- charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has quit [] 04:34:51 I'm just trying out PLT scheme and am using Dr.Shceme to run my ShemeUnit tests. However, I when I try to run them from the command line with the various errors.. 04:35:08 i.e. I get "reference to undefined identifier: module" when I try to run "plt-r5rs file-test.scm" 04:35:14 but it works fine in DrScheme 04:35:38 is there some page or docs I can look at for info on how to run things from cmd-line? 04:36:18 charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has joined #scheme 04:36:24 xmonader1 [n=ahmed@196.205.141.2] has joined #scheme 04:36:42 kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 04:36:43 -!- charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has quit [Client Quit] 04:37:23 mabes: http://docs.plt-scheme.org 04:37:32 mabes: but for now, try running "mzscheme" instead of "plt-r5rs" 04:38:01 offby1: ah, perfect 04:38:37 I'm also reading on the ShcemeUnit page that there is a cli tool for it 04:40:43 offby1: thanks 04:41:45 -!- xmonader [n=ahmed@196.205.141.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:25 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] 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joined #scheme 08:02:16 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:02:46 is planet.plt-scheme down? 08:03:17 no 08:03:46 the dns redirects to plt-scheme.org for me 08:04:42 http://planet.plt-scheme.org/ I'm unable to access it T_T 08:05:24 me neither 08:05:33 ah then it's down 08:05:34 thanks 08:09:51 welcome! 08:09:55 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@98.185.210.202] has quit [] 08:10:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:53 -!- pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:26:01 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-65.res.pomona.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:26:27 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:29:40 knight_ [n=knight@aes.phunc.com] has joined #scheme 08:30:12 -!- knight_ [n=knight@aes.phunc.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:38:48 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:45:58 attila_lendvai_ 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peer)] 12:59:28 mmc [n=mima@192.100.124.219] has joined #scheme 13:00:42 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-31-144.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:03:31 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:09:35 is the nearest T stop to NEU WVH museum of fine arts? 13:10:04 hfus2 [n=hufs4@88.89.224.156] has joined #scheme 13:15:27 Fare: there's a "northeastern" stop on the green line, but it's probably the same distance. 13:15:57 Fare: And that image I made is from an angle as if you're coming from that station's side. 13:17:56 do you disrecommend Ruggles? 13:18:50 -!- StyXman [n=mdione@ant06-1-82-242-111-138.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 13:19:18 first floor, I presume 13:19:29 is there anything special to tell the concierge at the entrance? 13:19:40 to not be directed to the residence area? 13:21:16 Fare: The room is 1xx, right? If so then it's on the first floor. 13:21:47 yes 13:21:53 And there's no concierge. (If there is one, then you're going into the dorms part -- but it's unlikely to do this mistake.) 13:22:07 And Ruggles works fine too. 13:25:01 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:25:38 -!- and` [n=hufs4@ti0035a340-0502.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:53 -!- hfus2 is now known as and` 13:27:09 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-31-144.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:29:17 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-31-144.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:31:05 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:34:16 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:36:44 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 13:37:12 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:38:46 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 13:39:24 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-31-144.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:39:32 @link not defined in scribble/text ? 13:41:20 *Fare* @(require scribble/manual) 13:41:40 Fare: No. `scribble/text' and `scribble/manual' are two very different things. 13:41:59 no link in scribble/text :( 13:42:17 also, how do I avoid a ToC in the html output? And a 4.2? 13:43:12 Fare: Like I said, they're very different things. 13:43:17 looks like it's not configured to do what I'd like, i.e. produce html or text from the same source. 13:43:46 `scribble/text' is a tool for generating plain text -- a kind of a preprocessor. 13:44:00 `scribble/manual' is a language for writing ... manuals. 13:44:25 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 13:44:56 So the former should be used if you want to do just text, and the latter if you want to do a more manual-like thing. 13:46:07 I want neither. 13:46:23 Maybe I'll stick with exscribe for now... 13:46:45 There are also things for an article-like thing -- but that's not likely to be what you want either. 13:46:58 can it do both html and text output? 13:47:47 *eli* sighs and mumbles something about nobody remembering what he says... 13:48:01 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:58 I see scribble --text and scribble --html 13:49:34 but scribble/text doesn't know links for instance, so might not produce very interesting html, and scribble/doc seems to not emphasize in text output 13:49:56 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 13:49:59 the web docs are not very clear as to what I should be using 13:50:01 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 13:50:49 Fare: scribble is a tool for generating documentation. It has backends that can render HTML, PDF, and text. 13:51:07 The text backend is not too great -- and most likely unfitting for producing an email. 13:51:16 (...without some manual tweaking.) 13:51:44 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-31-144.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:51:53 The `scribble/text' language is for producing *text* -- as in "a sequence of characters that are displayed somewhere" -- there are no links in text. 13:52:33 Of course you can *define* your own `link' function that produces some random text -- and you can parameterize it to make it output either some text rendering of links or some html link. 13:53:22 Finally the web docs are something that you need to look at when you're writing web applications. Assuming that you don't have any intention to make a web server for each announcement, that's irrelevant for you. 13:53:27 looks like a given document can only have one language, so I'd need two documents, one for the html output, one for the text output, which defeats the purpose 13:55:11 Huh? 13:55:18 Should I repeat all of the above? 13:58:28 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:01:50 so what language do you recommend for writing a simple web page? 14:02:02 the above is confusing to say the least 14:02:06 HTML :p 14:02:18 leppie: yeah 14:04:35 *Fare* can be such a pain in the ass to deal with - eli is obviously as thick-skinned as thick-tongued 14:05:45 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:05:46 Fare: it sounded to me like eli was saying 'write it in whatever is most appropriate (HTML or text). wherever you need functionality from the other language, add your own param'd function to address the need.' 14:05:48 I think the conclusion should be that I should pick one of those languages and extend it a lot to get what I want. Which is not too bad. I just don't know which to start from. 14:05:53 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:11 1- he didn't suggest what was most appropriate for HTML 14:06:25 2- the scribble/text is totally inappropriate for html output. 14:06:46 well, "most appropriate" is a function of what your text is and where it will mostly be used. i.e., you would know best on that one. 14:07:14 none of the proposed languages seemed appropriate 14:07:30 more like 60% solutions. 14:07:50 well, then pick one at random and work with it. 14:07:56 which once again, is not too bad. 14:08:08 I don't like random 14:08:32 fine. Use HTML. 14:08:46 I'd rather continue with exscribe than spend hours on one of these languages and see my patch rejected because that's not how he'd like this thing to evolve 14:09:03 Fare: Well, I did say at some point that there is nothing formal right now that makes it easy to do what you want. 14:09:36 First, I know that the documentation system is too heavy for what you want. 14:09:44 (I probably said that a few times.) 14:09:45 ok - is there one of your things I could/should start from? Or should I just lift the syntax and do something completely different? 14:10:17 when you say "the documentation system" you mean scribble/doc or the whole of the scribble back-end? 14:10:22 Second, scribble/text is really convenient for producing *text*, which is closer to what you want, but if you want HTML output too, then it will be difficult. 14:10:50 "The documentation system" is everything that we have that generates documentation. 14:11:08 so what I want should use the scribble syntax but otherwise completely throw away the existing scribble semantics. 14:11:12 Different from `scribble/text', which is using the scribble syntax, but is otherwise not part of the documentation. 14:11:18 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:33 Excatly -- that's why I said that `scribble/text' is closer to what you want. 14:11:44 ok 14:11:54 sorry for not getting it. 14:12:06 Finally, I told you that there is an HTML extension that we're using to generate the plt-scheme.org web pages. 14:12:19 but that isn't published 14:12:50 It's roughly based on `scribble/text' -- but all HTML tags are functions that produce the corresponding (X)HTML text. 14:13:21 But it's not published -- and given that the date is getting pretty close, it's not something that you'll want to use. 14:14:30 So the bottom line is -- you can do a little work and write some minimal functionality to parameterize `scribble/text', you can just risk it and try the unpublished code (which I'll be happy to send you), or you can stick to what you were using before. 14:14:46 Given the time frame, I think that you're better of with the last one. 14:26:00 s/of/off/ 14:26:45 samth [n=samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:27:57 elmex_ [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 14:27:57 -!- elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:28:34 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 14:28:50 eli: planet is offline again 14:29:42 can't start rudybot because of that ;) 14:31:32 Leonidas: I know -- the chicago sysadmins were notified. 14:32:44 Leonidas, can't you force the version in your cache? 14:37:00 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:41:28 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 14:42:48 eni__ [n=eni@APuteaux-552-1-80-177.w90-61.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:43:05 hello. i am currently trying to find out how to load a .scm-file with mzscheme on startup, but not letting mzscheme close afterwards, but dropping into a REPL. --load ends mzscheme after file.scm ended. 14:43:12 does anybody know this? 14:46:50 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:35 schoppenhauer: couple of options. You could just run 'mzscheme' to get into the repl, then do (enter! ) / (require "file.scm") to get your file in. 14:47:58 dstorrs, but i want the .scm-file to be loaded automatically 14:48:05 dstorrs, before i am in the repl 14:48:19 what are you trying to accomplish? 14:48:27 why do you need it loaded before the repl? 14:48:38 dstorrs, i need it. 14:48:40 anon_ [n=anon@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #scheme 14:49:08 dstorrs, can i pass a line to be run directly (something like --eval)? 14:49:17 why do you need this? 14:49:18 dstorrs, the problem is, mzscheme has no real manpage 14:49:39 dstorrs, because I dont want to pass the path every time. 14:50:06 dstorrs, is this possible or not? 14:52:03 ok it works with -i 14:53:14 thx 14:53:58 yw 14:54:59 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.131] has quit ["off"] 14:55:44 Fare: I don't have a version in my cache :) 14:56:54 eli: maybe there would be the possibility of a mirroring system? PyPI (the PLaneT-like system used in Python) also had availability problems some months ago, so people created their own mirrors. 14:57:18 -!- eni_ [n=eni@APuteaux-552-1-119-73.w90-35.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:55 -!- langmartin [n=user@152.85.133.62] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:59:42 dysinger [n=dysinger@75-94-4-238.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 14:59:54 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:01:37 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 15:02:06 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-158.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:13 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-158.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:05:12 -!- eni__ is now known as albacker 15:05:38 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:50 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:09:25 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:10:45 minion: tell schoppenhauer use mzscheme -f 15:10:50 use mzscheme -f : I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 15:11:00 Axioplas1_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 15:11:31 minion: memo for schoppenhauer: use mzscheme -f 15:11:31 Remembered. I'll tell schoppenhauer when he/she/it next speaks. 15:13:20 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 15:13:48 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:19:36 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:22 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 15:21:28 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has left #scheme 15:26:32 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 15:27:42 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@LAubervilliers-151-11-16-232.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:29:41 -!- mmc [n=mima@192.100.124.219] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:29 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:40 Sveklo1 [n=sveklo1@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 15:40:55 ejs [n=eugen@131-3-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 15:41:36 -!- albacker [n=eni@APuteaux-552-1-80-177.w90-61.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:44:08 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:49:47 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 15:56:04 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@ip68-111-70-47.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 15:59:05 any NEU guy to give a lightning talk at the BLM next wednesday? 16:01:12 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-181.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 16:08:38 kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:14 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 16:17:33 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:19:00 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:12 -!- and` [n=hufs4@88.89.224.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:24:14 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-181.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 16:24:50 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-181.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 16:28:14 jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:28:15 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:29:16 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@75-94-4-238.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:30:56 jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.139] has joined #scheme 16:32:13 *jcowan* unvanishes boldly. 16:32:45 Am I right to think that general complex numbers make no sense without either ratios or inexact numbers? 16:32:58 Or are there reasonable domains of work where just having Gaussian integers is enough? 16:34:50 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 16:38:18 I don't know of any computational applications of just the Gaussian integers. 16:38:56 In that case I claim that there are only 10 reasonable subsets of the full numeric tower. 16:38:59 Complex numbers without roots, exponentials, and logarithms are pretty useless. 16:39:06 What are they? 16:39:24 http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc46qrdf_237xkhk9g9 16:39:40 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 16:41:02 You're missing exact reals. 16:42:04 True. 16:42:12 I haven't read that paper yet. 16:42:14 I don't think +B -R -I -C and +B +R +I -C are useful. 16:43:02 Fare [n=Fare@63.107.91.99] has joined #scheme 16:43:20 I'm not aware of any Scheme systems with +B +R -I -C, and I can't imagine how +B +R -I +C is useful. 16:44:01 kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 16:44:20 Frankly, I think the whole idea of -I is silly, but people keep hounding me about supporting itty bitty chips. 16:44:33 Even said chips, though, usually have fixed-point arithmetic. 16:45:05 +B +R +I -C seems perfectly realistic to me, though; complex numbers are a specialized taste. 16:45:42 Also, R5RS implies -I as an option, though not explicitly. 16:45:50 If you have already gone to the effort of implementing integer, rational, and floating-point arithmetic, there is no sense in not writing a few more procedures to support complex arithmetic. 16:49:23 Well, the effects on the transcendentals are much more involved: all of a sudden, libc is no help any more. 16:49:46 libm, surely? What do you mean it is of no help any more? 16:50:47 libm for those who have a separate libm. 16:52:13 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:52:13 kmurph79_ [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 16:52:22 -!- kmurph79_ is now known as kmurph79 16:52:32 Real-only implementations can defer the transcendental functions to C. But complex versions must be written specially, and are very easy to get wrong. 16:52:39 It's a barrier to implementation. 16:53:22 kmurph79_ [n=kmurph79@98.185.210.202] has joined #scheme 16:53:23 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:31 -!- kmurph79_ is now known as kmurph79 16:54:45 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 16:58:27 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@98.185.210.202] has quit [] 16:58:29 In MIT Scheme's arith.scm, there are seventy-two procedures in arith.scm whose names begin with COMPLEX:. Of these, thirty-one are merely wrappers around real operations that strip off zero imaginary parts, or signal errors for non-zero imaginary parts. Of the remaining, only about ten involve computations not obvious from a high school math class. 16:59:50 Of those ten or so, the formulae for most are given in the R5RS. 17:02:00 (Fifty of the names beginning with COMPLEX: are just the internal names for the exposed arithmetic operations; the remaining ones are internal utilities.) 17:03:04 I don't think that's an onerous burden. None of these operations, by the way, do any numerical analysis: all that happens in libm (or on the machine's FPU). 17:03:20 I thought the R6RS ones were cloned from CLtL1, which is known to have errors in the branch cuts. 17:03:31 Known to have errors in the branch cuts? 17:03:45 See CLtL2 17:03:53 One of them doesn't even compute the right thing. 17:04:06 s/R6RS/R5RS/ (typo, not thinko) 17:04:12 Oh, 1. The R5RS cites CLtL2. 17:05:41 Oh, okay. 17:05:51 atanh was the one whose formula was gibberish. 17:06:04 The R5RS doesn't include any hyperbolic operations. 17:06:08 his unfortunate error in the first edition was the result of mistranscribing a (correct) APL formula from Penfield's paper 17:06:09 Right. 17:06:12 s/his/This 17:06:55 I don't know why hyperbolic functions were omitted from the R5RS (and from earlier reports), though. 17:12:14 Anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with requiring complex numbers when you already have integers, rationals, and inexact reals. 17:12:20 That always struck me as odd. 17:14:09 Riastradh: Well, there's a combinatoric explosion in cases for primitive operations as you add more types. 17:15:36 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:15:40 The code doesn't need to handle *all* combinations; it just needs to find the parameter with the most upgraded type and upgrade other parameter types to match. 17:17:24 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@shunat236-8.shu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:18:58 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo1@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:27:30 Yes, but that's even slower. Smalltalk used to use that, then they switched to generic functions under the covers. 17:27:36 ("double dispatching") 17:28:52 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:17 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.139] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:40:06 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@131-3-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:41:19 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 17:42:33 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 17:47:42 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:47:51 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:52:10 Supporting complex arithmetic also means making your scanner read complex numbers, rectangular and polar notation. Bleah. 17:55:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-pyhotnnshwtsjbbj] has joined #scheme 17:59:10 Parsing floating-point numbers in the first place is much harder than dealing with the rectangular and polar notation. 17:59:55 Dealing with rectangular and polar notation is no harder than dealing with ratio notation; if you've already done that, you have no excuse for omitting complex numbers from your parser. 18:03:59 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.70.67] has joined #scheme 18:06:58 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0537DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:08:01 rudybot: seen incubot 18:08:02 TimMc: incubot was seen joining in/on :#scheme one day, eight hours ago, and then incubot was seen changing their nick to Guest38526 in/on klutometis.wikitex.org one day, eight hours ago 18:08:30 Guest38526: Oho! 18:08:42 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@shunat236-8.shu.edu] has quit [] 18:09:11 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@shunat236-8.shu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:09:30 weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 18:10:45 Riastradh: That has not been my experience. It is a wart that I would happily leave out of any Scheme for my own use. 18:11:25 -!- samth [n=samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:12:05 Guest38526: (begin (display "Are you incubot?") (newline)) 18:13:45 The difference between ratio notation and rectangular notation is a trailing `i'. Polar notation is no different at all from ration notation. 18:14:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.70.67] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:16:09 how do you enter numbers in polar notation? 18:16:17 Not quite. The infix character on rectangular notation is the same character as a signum on any real or integer quantity. 18:16:20 rudybot: eval 1@2 18:16:22 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 18:16:22 Riastradh: ; Value: -0.4161468365471424+0.9092974268256817i 18:16:38 Fare: in an annoying infix notation. 18:17:03 rudybot: eval 1@3.14159 18:17:04 Fare: your sandbox is ready 18:17:04 Fare: ; Value: -0.9999999999964793+2.653589793352726e-06i 18:18:07 sorry I don't know more digits of pi... 18:18:14 rudybot: eval pi 18:18:14 Fare: ; Value: 3.141592653589793 18:18:24 rudybot: eval 1@3.141592653589793238462643383279502884 18:18:25 Riastradh: ; Value: -1.0+1.2246063538223773e-16i 18:18:37 ejs [n=eugen@67-70-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 18:18:53 Riastradh, congrats if you knew them by heart. 18:19:08 They're a pain to type. Saying them aloud is much easier. 18:19:21 I stopped because I was sure I'd made an error typing at that point. 18:19:28 foof` [n=user@FL1-118-110-11-115.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 18:19:32 did you? 18:19:34 I don't think I did, though. 18:19:54 not that rudybot cared after 17 digits or so 18:20:20 In which case, your absolute error would be no greater than if you had stopped the decimal expansion at the error. No harm beyond to your RSI. 18:21:08 3.141592653523456789abcdefe 18:21:23 so are continued fractions to be included in R7RS ? 18:21:33 If you petition jcowan, maybe they will be, Fare! 18:21:51 jcowan: and p-adics, too! 18:22:04 And ponies! 18:22:04 He left, though. 18:22:08 Don't forget quaternions! 18:22:18 or octonions 18:22:36 Or sexy Jesuit onions. 18:22:51 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.249.65] has joined #scheme 18:22:52 but yeah, ponies! http://fare.livejournal.com/113107.html 18:23:13 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.249.65] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:22 Sure, octonions, too, but not sedenions, because they really lose. Octonions only lose associativity, but floating-point numbers lost that already. 18:23:31 Daemmerung, jesuits in reduction with onions! 18:23:45 Mmmm... savory. 18:24:13 *Daemmerung* deglazes the skillet with a little wine 18:24:14 jesuits put indians in reduction, time to reciprocate 18:24:17 (And there are two main sorts of sedenion, each of whihc loses badly, in different ways.) 18:24:43 how do they lose? 18:24:52 (for the ignorant) 18:25:29 Heh, he lost me at the octonions. 18:26:18 They fail to be alternative, which is a sort of generalization of associativity: while in octonion multiplication, x * (x * y) = (x * x) * y, the same is not true in sedenion multiplication. 18:26:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@67-70-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:28:08 Also, I have *never* heard of applications of sedenions. 18:28:15 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-120-120.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 18:29:19 By contrast, quaternions are actually practically quite useful as a representation of rotations in R^3 (much lighter-weight than three-by-three matrices: four real numbers versus nine), and octonions do occasionally turn up in esoteric geometry and physics. 18:29:37 I've seen applications of 2^n-ions to the mental masturbation of people with vastly higher IQ than I. 18:33:09 ejs [n=eugen@69-5-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 18:33:36 (But I don't know of any computationally useful applications of octonions.) 18:45:27 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-158.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:59 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-122-131-151-157.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@69-5-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:01:03 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:18 Is there anything that differentiates the top-level environment from "lower" environment frames, other than the fact that it is not "nested" inside of any other environments? Are variables that are bound in the top-level environment somehow different from variables that are bound in a let expression, for instance? 19:09:57 The semantics of DEFINE is different; that's all. 19:10:32 Specifically, in an internal scope, multiple definitions of a common name are forbidden. At the top level, subsequent definitions have the effect of SET!. 19:10:51 -!- anon_ [n=anon@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has left #scheme 19:11:42 OK, thanks. 19:12:06 That's true in the R5RS. In the R6RS, there is no difference whatsoever; multiple definitions of a name in a R6RS top-level program are also forbidden. 19:12:28 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@ip68-111-70-47.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:43 The R5RS affords implementations some latitude on how they handle the top-level environment; for instance, it's OK for a R5RS implementation to treat every identifier as being already bound at the top level. 19:13:09 kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:13:13 Don't implement that particular semantics (having every name bound to locations with undefined values); that's silly. 19:13:22 Of course. 19:15:03 -!- ada2358_ is now known as ada2358 19:15:20 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:15:26 That's no fair. This dictionary has `permissible', `remissible', and `omissible', but not `emissible'. 19:16:58 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:17:01 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:09 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0537DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:18:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-234.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:18:34 combinatorial (reverse) etymology, a new field! 19:18:59 Combinatymology. 19:19:11 No, that has only two m's, and no silent q. 19:22:23 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@wsip-98-189-1-73.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:25:53 BW^- [n=Miranda@92.81.192.138] has joined #scheme 19:25:57 how in R5RS do I convert 4813205544030317/16384 to its exact form 19:26:00 like 0.198274832759497542 19:26:08 or unexact or rational or whatever 19:27:29 4813205544030317/16384 *is* exact. 19:27:49 If you want an inexact number, use EXACT->INEXACT. 19:29:03 BW^-: working with floats? 19:31:40 copumpkin: yup 19:32:00 riastradh: gambit gives me the same value as i inputted when evaluating (inexact->exact 4813205544030317/16384) 19:32:04 how solve? :) 19:32:14 you did it backwards 19:32:20 he said exact->inexact 19:32:20 4813205544030317/16384 is already exact; INEXACT->EXACT will give it back to you unchanged. 19:32:28 ah there great! :D 19:32:29 Just follow the arrow! 19:34:24 haha yes, i did it! 19:34:32 i made a FLOAT and DOUBLE decoder :) 19:34:51 from the mysql protocol to schemeworld. :) 19:36:13 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 19:36:15 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 19:36:27 yay! 19:36:27 thanks guys :) 19:37:23 http://pastebin.com/f6db52caf for the interested 19:38:23 whatcha gonna do about infinities and NaNs? 19:38:52 hmm good question 19:39:12 aha you mean, when sending from schemeworld to mysql, because those aint included in double/float? 19:40:27 well, if mysql (or whoever is producing these floats) sends you a NaN or an infinity, what should your code do? 19:40:58 aha, so you mean NaN and infinity exists in FLOAT and DOUBLE. 19:41:02 yes 19:41:44 i wonder what NaN is. i see now 7f80 0000 = infinity, ff80 0000 = -infinity - great i'll just equality check and implement those. 19:41:45 also, it may be worth noting that (and I hate this) NaN != NaN, even if they're identical 19:42:10 That matters only when conducting floating-point comparisons in floating-point computation, copumpkin. 19:42:13 what is infinity and -infinity in Scheme? 19:42:27 Riastradh: I wasn't sure how far he wanted to take this 19:42:29 It is still meaningful to ask the question of whether double-precision floating-point values are the same bit pattern. 19:42:36 BW^-, in the R5RS, they are not specified. 19:42:48 ah duh. they are in gambit though. they're.. hm 19:43:07 +inf.0 and -inf.0 19:43:35 I wonder where the `.0' suffix came from. -inf and +inf suffice to distinguish the tokens from symbols; `.0' doesn't add anything. 19:43:55 I had imagined that Gambit already supported read-f32 and read-f64. My mistake. That's a useful thing. 19:44:15 you need to show how many significant digits of infinity you have! 19:44:20 ;) 19:45:22 In Gambit, +inf is a symbol, not a number. 19:45:43 It needn't be, though. 19:47:21 if anyone's feeling really bored, check this out: http://www.archive.org/details/ClaudiusMaximus_-_ULCIv1 19:48:02 thanks for the input, now implemented - http://pastebin.com/m2e632588 19:48:32 +inf.0, -inf.0 and +nan.0 support for read-float and read-double 19:49:19 Note that there is more than one NaN. Gambit may not have distinct external representations for all of them, though. 19:50:00 you mean gambit might not differentiate them? 19:50:44 Well, given any two NaNs n and m, it will always be the case that (not (= n m)), even if (eq? n m) -- that is, compared as floating-point numbers, they are inequal, even if their bit patterns are identical. 19:51:13 Gambit may have only a common external representation shared by all NaNs, though. 19:53:03 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:19 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@wsip-98-189-1-73.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:20 patmaddo_ [n=patmaddo@wsip-98-189-1-73.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:54:26 -!- patmaddo_ [n=patmaddo@wsip-98-189-1-73.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:46 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:56:06 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 19:56:07 ok 20:00:23 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 20:02:32 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@ip68-111-70-47.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:02:42 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:05:56 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 20:15:08 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 20:15:19 let* guarantees sequential execution right? 20:16:42 Um, yes; that's its entire raison d'etre. 20:17:00 whoa, you know french 20:17:02 i'm impressed 20:17:09 *Riastradh* blinks. 20:17:17 `Raison d'etre' is a fairly common phrase, even in English. 20:17:36 i'll be even more impressed 20:17:42 "Let* is similar to let, but the bindings are performed /sequentially/ from left to right..." 20:17:49 if you can rewrite this in syntax-rules for me 20:17:51 ...chapter and verse 20:17:51 (define-macro (!get lst) 20:17:51 (let ((ans (gensym))) 20:17:51 `(let ((,ans (car ,lst))) 20:17:51 (set! ,lst (cdr ,lst)) 20:17:52 ,ans))) 20:19:30 I won't write your code for you. What are you having trouble with? 20:20:03 (definez-syntaxe obtenez! (regles-syntactique () ((OBTENEZ! liste) (LAISSEZ ((L liste)) (PLACEZ L (CDR L)) (CAR L] 20:20:38 (k thx bye!) 20:20:56 Excusez-moi: l'imperatif de `definir' est `definissez', pas `definez'. 20:21:13 what's PLACEZ? 20:21:20 cons? 20:21:25 begin? 20:21:25 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@92.81.192.138] has left #scheme 20:21:33 (dans le deuxieme personne au pluriel) 20:21:35 set? 20:21:39 (...`la') 20:21:56 okay; i think i got it; 20:21:57 thanks 20:23:01 Riastradh, chaque accent manquant compte pour une demi-faute! 20:23:16 hmm, shouuldn't taht line be (PLACEZ liste (CDR liste)) ? 20:23:20 Aussi, excusez-moi: je n'ai pas reflete l'evaluation triple de votre programme originale. Mais je pense que vous ne l'avez pas voulue. 20:23:29 optimizer, ah, oui. 20:25:05 (Bien sur, cette evaluation-la triple ne fait rien s'il n'y a pas de PLACEZ! generalise.) 20:25:54 Fare, lo siento! No lo puedo hacer convenientemente en esta configuracion. 20:26:50 okay; that was cute 20:26:54 let's switch back to English now 20:27:00 I got a C- in french 20:27:04 (Esta configuracion supone X11 de Apple, rxvt, screen, ssh, y irssi tambien.) 20:31:49 (Y perdon si he hecho errores en mi programa; es dificil mentalmente escribir programas, traduciendolos en otra idioma.) 20:31:55 (definition-syntaxique obtention (règles-syntaxiques () ((_ liste) (liaison ((l liste) (affecter! l (reste l)) (premier l] 20:32:41 EleminoP [n=EleminoP@iub-vpn-194-28.noc.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 20:32:48 Riastradh, esta configuraci*ó*n 20:33:40 my first UCSD Pascal floppies were in a french edition... 20:33:45 DEBUT ... FIN 20:33:47 Non, non, Fare! Les mots sont `contentu', `addresse', `diminution', et `registre', donc les acronymes sont encore CAR et CDR. 20:34:10 Far*é* 20:34:35 contenu? that would be dereferencing a cell. 20:34:46 ...`contenu', oui. 20:34:47 diminution? what are you lessening? 20:34:55 is there a register anywhere? 20:35:03 En anglais, ce sont `contents of address register', `contenst of decrement register'. 20:35:12 `contents' 20:35:37 ok for CAR and CDR... though for perfect translation, you should find absurd acronyms from the mnemonics of obsolete French machines... 20:36:07 contenu du registre d'adresse? 20:36:10 CRA 20:36:22 contenu du registre de données? 20:36:23 CRD 20:36:32 ok, that can make do 20:36:36 D'accord! 20:37:10 decrement... hum, no French equivalent... 20:38:19 -!- kmurph79 [n=kmurph79@ip98-185-210-202.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 20:38:34 contenu du registre de terme à soustraire ? 20:38:37 CRTS ? 20:38:52 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:38:55 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #scheme 20:39:06 Riastradh: ping 20:39:10 r6rs bytevectors are pretty cool 20:39:11 Public notice to implementations whose closures retain the values of variables not used in the closure: as they would say in the more whimsical parts of the internet, "you're doing it wrong". 20:39:12 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 20:39:26 Ech. Non, il devrais avoir trois lettres. 20:39:38 chandler, not "safe for space" ? 20:39:56 jcowan, erh...Faré, comment dit-on `pong' en français? 20:40:00 il devrait y avoir trois lettres? 20:40:09 c'est un ATLE. 20:40:11 Fare: Yes. 20:40:14 Étinque. 20:40:21 Acronyme à Trois Lettres Étendu. 20:40:23 VOI for `voiture', POU for `pouvoir'? 20:40:31 In particular, anything written in CPS turns into a massive space leak. 20:40:40 I've seen "POU" in the French edition of CoC 20:40:49 jcowan, uh? 20:40:54 (Gah. Ya teryu.) 20:41:23 "Pong" is not only the response to "Ping", but a British term for "bad smell". So I took English "stink" and treated it as if it were French, generating "étinque". 20:41:56 except it's got a german root so won't translate. 20:42:01 Of course. 20:42:08 Aber natch. 20:42:44 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 20:42:47 schemer999_ [n=tmilford@76.89.231.7] has joined #scheme 20:42:55 That was hard. And I definitely can't persuade this setup to enter Cyrillic characters...oh well. 20:43:20 Riastradh: After our talk, I read Brian Hayes's column in AS, which describes the lovely Clenshaw/Olver representation of inexact irrationals (plus 0 and 1) 20:44:47 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 20:45:49 The idea is that to express a number, you take its log, then its log log, and so on until the result is between 0 and 1. Store the number of log operations (the *level*) and the resulting fraction (the *index*). 20:46:26 A level of 7 is way more than enough, so that's three bits. Numbers between 0 and 1 are represented by taking their reciprocal and applying the above algorithm; you need a bit in the representation for that. 20:46:52 Then a sign bit, and you're done. 5 bits for magnitude, 27 or 59 bits for precision. 20:47:16 what's lovely about it? 20:47:26 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@shunat236-8.shu.edu] has quit [] 20:47:28 26 or 58, surely? (Where's the sign bit?) 20:47:44 sounds horrible to add, multiply, or do anything about them. 20:47:52 3 for level + 1 for reciprocal + 1 for sign, Riastradh. 20:48:03 Adding is out, but multiplying is not a problem -- these are logarithms.' 20:48:04 Oh, I see -- you included that in the magnitude. 20:48:10 *jcowan* nods. 20:48:32 well, after the first level, multiplication is translated into addition, and then it sucks. 20:48:54 Fare: It represents numbers very densely and has a huge range (max double is only level 4) 20:49:16 you can very quickly get an approximate sense of magnitude, that's good, but for the rest, meh. 20:49:16 Plus it cannot overflow from arithmetic operations, because the distance between representable numbers grows exponentially. 20:50:30 it might be good to represent things in approximate computations where order of magnitude is all, as in heuristic probabilistic search. 20:50:59 "In 1993 Lozier described a substantial example of a program sensitive to numeric range. A simulation in fluid dynamics failed because of several FP underflow; redoing the computation with level-index arithmetic produced correct output." 20:51:03 apart from that (but that's already a lot, possibly), I don't see much use 20:51:41 The citation is Lozier, Daniel W. 1993. An underflow-induced graphics failure solved by SLI arithmetic 20:51:59 yeah, some simulations with wide dynamic range could use that, too. 20:52:03 Proc. 11th Symp. Comp. Arith. pp. 10-17, IEEE Computer Soc. Press 20:52:19 I'm sure it has its use. Just not the common use. 20:52:21 If someone could snarf the PDF, that would be a Good Thing. 20:52:44 So evidently they had good algorithms for arithmetic. 20:53:20 IEEE? It's unlikely that it will have reasonable copying terms. 20:53:22 Sure, FP has well-understood problems with well-understood solutions (apart from the fact that nobody but the numerologists^Wnumerical analysts know about them. 20:54:35 -!- Fare [n=Fare@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:54:47 0 20:54:50 s/0/) 20:55:26 And the IEEE is obnoxious, too: for users who do have access to their papers, they watermark their PDFs anyway. 20:56:08 Hayes points out that something as simple as computing 1000 choose 2000 with standard FP requires very careful rearrangements to avoid either overflow from computing 2000! or underflow from computing (1/2)^2000. 20:56:10 Fare: The author also cites calculations with "awkwardly large intermediate values," suggesting that "a number system with a wider range would allow a simpler and more robust approach." 20:56:20 (Fare left, Daemmerung.) 20:56:35 *Daemmerung* addresses the empty chair 20:57:09 *jcowan* read that as a command to journey leftward. 20:57:35 Daniel Lozier's web page doesn't have a copy of the paper, although his list of publications includes (citations of but not copies of) several other papers on the subject. 20:57:44 *jcowan* nods. 20:57:47 (That list is at .) 20:58:01 Hmm, the 1984 Clenshaw/Olver paper is JACM, so maybe I can snarf it. 20:58:24 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 20:59:08 Arrgh.[ 20:59:28 *jcowan* hates on people who cite volume and page but not date. Fine when consulting bound volumes, not so good on the Web. 21:00:10 jcowan: It shouldn't be difficult to compute 1000 choose 2000 exactly with FP, should it? 21:00:19 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 21:00:52 (2000 choose 1000, that'd be a different matter.) 21:01:50 *jcowan* laughs. 21:01:53 Oopsie. 21:01:56 Those are well within the interval of representable integers. You can do that entirely with integer floating-point arithmetic fairly straightforwardly, alternating multiplications and divisions. 21:02:27 *jcowan* struggles with reconfiguring his proxy to DTRT 21:02:31 (If those weren't within the interval of representable integers, you'd have trouble computing the factorials in the first place.) 21:02:57 That's the point. You *can* do it with FP, if you are most careful. 21:03:15 And anyway, what is a representable integer? 21:03:19 That's really the only sensible way to do it, though, even with integer arithmetic. 21:03:28 I meant the interval in which integers are represented exactly in the floating-point format. 21:03:49 Ah. 21:04:29 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:31 I cabbaged the system proxy setting instead of the browser-specific one, arrgh. 21:09:50 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-247.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:14:19 MononcQc [n=mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:15:43 *jcowan* gets access to IEEE, still trying on ACM 21:16:47 -!- MononcQc [n=mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17:03 MononcQc [n=mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:18:32 Sigh. IEEE not only won't do it, it won't even say why not. 21:19:23 Because they're obnoxious, craven hoarders of academic knowledge? 21:19:48 That too, but in this case the key was to use another browser. 21:19:54 Anyhow, this work is P.D. Anyone want a copy? 21:20:08 (the author was a NIST employee at the time.) 21:20:13 Be careful! The IEEE is known to have peculiar notions of the public domain... 21:21:01 Nope. Says right on the PDF: "U.S. Government Work Not Protected By U.S. Copyright". 21:21:28 True that there is a "Restrictions apply" from the IEEE below that, but that's unenforceable. They neither have, nor license, the nonexistent copyright. 21:21:31 It wouldn't surprise me if they sent out thugs to whomever they found distributing watermarked PDFs. 21:21:49 We of Google have teh bigger thugs. 21:21:54 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:22:06 (`Thug' of course is a euphemism for a lawyer clutching a DMCA takedown notice.) 21:22:36 *jcowan* nods. 21:25:22 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 21:29:13 2000 choose 1000 exceeds the range of the double floating-point format. 21:35:07 2000 choose 100 doesn't, though, and computing it with floating-point arithmetic is off only by about...let's see, my Latin prefixes up to 156 aren't quite up to scratch, but about 5.6 * 10^156. This is only a decimal order of magnitude worse than I get by computing it with integer arithmetic and converting it to floating-point. 21:36:04 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:14 Done. PD paper at http://ccil.org/~cowan/temp/silarith.pdf 21:37:40 Free of watermarks? 21:39:36 No. 21:39:48 I suppose I could use a PDF editor on them. 21:40:03 But you take no risk by getting a copy, only by redistributing it. 21:40:17 Yes, that's true. 21:40:27 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-120.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:40:41 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:40:52 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 21:43:41 Still struggling with Google's proxy infrastructure, the accursed ACM, and the big fat usability bug in all browsers: when the proxy is borked, they don't complain but just silently ignore it. 21:44:17 So when are we going to see jcowan's Scheme implementation with SLI arithmetic? 21:44:46 jcowan: Did you get access to everything you needed? 21:45:06 TimMc: Nope, still trying to get the ACM article. 21:45:27 jcowan: Can you point me to the abstract or citation page? 21:45:45 Can't you just ssh to a host at Google with `-D 1080', and use the SOCKS proxy that that sets up, or do you have to go through a special proxy at Google, not just any host with a Google IP address? 21:47:20 The latter, apparently. 21:47:35 I see. 21:47:47 What a wonderful way to disseminate academic knowledge. 21:48:01 Okay, snarfed the ACM article. 21:48:29 The key was that setting the proxy to foo.bar.google.com silently fails; you need http://foo.bar.google.com 21:48:37 ?? 21:48:39 Oh, HTTP proxy? 21:48:42 Yes. 21:49:02 Most people are set to that proxy but I am not because of mumble mumble mumble mumble. 21:50:51 Okay, posted at http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/temp/p319-clenshaw.pdf 21:51:04 karme [n=user@kallisto.karme.de] has joined #scheme 21:51:49 If anyone needs access to a paper, I'm at an institution with a pretty wide selection of subscriptions. 21:52:00 Speaking of mumbling, a friend was telling me about some modules he wrote for a MOO allowing people in the same room to "speak" mutually unintelligible languages. 21:52:12 TimMc: Thanks. I may need that. 21:52:42 Everyone who wasn't a registered francophone, for example, would see "French" (typically in fact English) as gibberish. 21:53:06 The trick was that he used actual French n-gram statistics to generate the French mumblage. 21:54:37 The high cost of journal papers seems to reflect that the main motivation of the writer is the prestige of being published rather than contributing to the field as a whole. 21:54:53 On the topic of papers and research: I've been using Zotero, an extension for Firefox that does citation management. 21:55:27 The cute thing is that you can sync your local library to the Zotero site and have it public, including full-text PDFs that it has automatically slurped. 21:55:44 For instance: http://www.zotero.org/phyzome/items 21:56:15 Does that include the PDFs themselves? 21:56:20 camio: The high cost of journal papers reflects neither more nor less than the absolute greed of the gatekeepers, who can only be compared to the operators of 17th-century German river locks in their rapacity and disregard for the public. To call them highway robbers would be an insult to the gentlemen of the road, who at least took some risks for their ill-gotten gains. 21:56:47 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-120-120.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:08 All the actual labor of selection, editing, etc. is done for them for free, so they have essentially no costs in the digital age. 21:57:21 The sooner the ArxiV model takes over the better. 21:57:26 Of course they have costs, jcowan! 21:57:31 Lawyers don't just grow on trees, after all. 21:57:40 jcowan: I don't blame the operators. The writers are the ones who can make the change since they make the valuable material. 21:57:48 Riastradh: Yup. You can also do group collaboration (autosyncing shared libraries). 21:57:57 *jcowan* walks down to the lawyer-orchard and plucks a ripe McIntosh. 21:58:06 jcowan: As long as they are motivated by prestigue, this will continue. 21:58:19 Prestige = promotion = money. 21:59:01 *karme* thinks open access 21:59:03 TimMc, I took a look there, but I didn't see any actual PDFs; all I saw was to acm.org, ieeeexplore.ieee.org, &c. 21:59:06 Eh, after meeting several of these people, the prestige is truly the most important for them. 21:59:07 The extension grabs metadata from sites it recognizes, and can export selections of the library as a bibliography in whichever format you choose. 21:59:11 `...was links to...' 21:59:14 Fortunately more and more journals are becoming "green" open access; that is, you can post your stuff on your own Web page. 21:59:33 Yeah, that's nice. 21:59:36 (as distinct from "gold" open access, where the stuff is posted on the Web by the journal) 21:59:41 Riastradh: Here's one that does: http://www.zotero.org/phyzome/items/61333133 22:00:06 Also, TimMc, I see that you are clearly a terrorist. You are researching anonymous digital cash, anonymous transport, terrorist financing, money laundering, and all manner of terrorist subjects. 22:00:07 Although I really should complain, I bought an expensive subscription to JFP this year. I'm buying into the system, but I'm happy to have my R6RS hard copy this month. 22:00:14 The economics of the latter are compelling: better for institutions to pay directly for server costs to publish the works of their own scholars than to pay exorbitant page charges *and* exorbitant subscriptions. 22:00:20 The monopolists must be crushed! 22:00:22 s/should/shouldn't 22:00:23 Crushed, I say! 22:00:25 Riastradh: All in the name of a writing class. 22:00:32 Suuuuuure, TimMc. 22:00:40 Riastradh: And terrorism, of course. 22:00:42 That's what that towelhead in England said last year, or whenever it was. 22:01:11 *jcowan* resembles that remark. 22:01:14 Hey, don't make me make some liquid explosives out of mentos and diet coke. 22:01:28 (ahem, liquid mentos...) 22:01:29 (Not sure what terrorists want to do with SLI arithmetic, though. `We want one BILLION...no, one e^e^e^e^e^l dollars!') 22:01:31 *jcowan* blows up all privilege everywhere. 22:02:04 And they accuse me and others like me of not believing in free markets. Hah. 22:02:48 (Excuse me, I guess that's spelled `beellion', not `billion'.) 22:03:30 No, it's "billyun" 22:03:33 -!- EleminoP [n=EleminoP@iub-vpn-194-28.noc.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 22:03:47 although I concede that "bill-yunn" would be less ambiguous. 22:04:07 *jcowan* sends mail to billy@example.com and BillY@example.com to see what happens. 22:04:48 No MX record, no SMTP server listening. 22:04:51 *jcowan* notes that f_o_o_b_a_r@gmail.com appears to be the same as foobar@google.com 22:04:52 Too bad. 22:04:59 There's a web server there, though. 22:05:18 IANA's, I assume. 22:05:30 Yes. 22:06:37 Is haskell better than scheme? 22:06:50 (There's no incubot here to say "You're not a *what*?" to...) 22:07:13 minion: tell camio whether Haskell is better than Scheme. 22:07:18 whether Haskell is better than Scheme: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 22:07:55 ? 22:08:17 *jcowan* notes the characteristic offby1 whine in minion's reply. 22:10:33 The real question is, how much dry quinoa do I need to make 1 cup, cooked? 22:10:43 *jcowan* reads about the marble problem in the theory of turbulent combustion, and thinks that dumping marbles into a turbulent combustion process is a pretty good way to screw it up. 22:10:45 A tiny amount. Quinoa expands a lot. 22:10:57 No more than half a cup, I'm sure; perhaps a quarter cup. 22:11:16 Maybe I will just make it in excess, and mix the rest with random stuff from the fridge. 22:11:29 It depends on whether you like your quinoa warm or hot, no? 22:11:34 Same as rice, according to this. 22:11:46 1 part q + 2 parts water = 3 parts result 22:12:09 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:12:12 I have never had trouble with preparing too little quinoa. I have often had trouble with preparing too much quinoa (and eating it -- it has a tendency to continue to expand in one's stomach, I think!). 22:12:13 I was aware the question is very inexact. I was curious what the responses might be. But you all are too smart for my own good. 22:12:16 Perhaps a more relevant question: When a recipe says "1 cup quinoa (cooked)", do they mean 1 cup before or after the cooking? 22:12:37 After. 22:12:42 One cup of dry quinoa will yield a lot of food. How many armies are you feeding, TimMc? 22:12:53 *TimMc* grumbles about ambiguous specifications 22:12:58 Another source says 1 raw = 4 cooked. 22:13:14 *jcowan* often cooks for five + baby these days 22:13:24 I could not find any good sources. You'd think the damn package would tell you. 22:13:45 Googling "cooking quinoa" told me everything I know. 22:14:12 Go with a quarter cup, TimMc. 22:14:20 I can never get one baby to feed that many, jcowan. Perhaps I need to try your plusbabies. 22:14:30 jcowan: My google-fu was failing today. 22:14:32 Thanks all! 22:14:48 Or trade up to suckling pig, Daemmerung. 22:15:02 Daemmerung, did you add enough water? If you don't add enough, they just turn yellowy and stick to the pan, instead of becoming nice and white and slightly fluffy. 22:15:10 *jcowan* connects Daemmerung's nick and RN and slaps his forehead. 22:15:24 This baby will never turn nice and white unless he gets a skin disease. 22:15:56 (White, anyhow. He can be nice enough.) 22:16:43 *jcowan* attempts to learn if one of wget's infinite options specifies a proxy.pac file 22:16:46 Oh, are you talking about babies or rice? I got a little mixed up... 22:16:47 *Riastradh* hiccups. 22:16:48 Probably not. 22:16:57 Riastradh, if you add water they don't brown nicely. They whiten nicely, but they don't brown. 22:17:02 *jcowan* hands Riastradh the fluid and tells him to hold his breath. 22:17:03 Lemme try this question: Why would one choose to use Scheme in an introductory computer science course instead of Haskell? 22:17:25 *offby1* whines about being maligned 22:17:26 Because programming in Haskell is an exercise in BDSM? 22:17:32 *jcowan* realigns offby1. 22:17:36 *Daemmerung* whines about being misaligned 22:17:43 *Riastradh* benigns Daemmerung. 22:17:54 mdg [n=mdg@unaffiliated/mgroman] has joined #scheme 22:17:55 Four fetches good, two fetches better! 22:18:08 *jcowan* has only one fetch, and devoutly hopes never to meet him. 22:18:18 Let me *not* be certified of the hour of my death, please. 22:18:20 jcowan: Oh, you think it is better for new students to get feedback on their bugs during runtime instead of compile time? 22:18:49 It's not the static typing I object to, it's the laziness/purity. 22:18:54 I think students should write metacircular evaluators. That's not easy with Haskell. 22:19:27 camio: Because type systems tend to get in the way of newbies -- so moving from a dynamic to a statically typed world works better. 22:19:47 *jcowan* broke down on learning Haskell for the nth time on running into a textbook problem involving enumerating the elements of a matrix that was represented as a list. 22:19:52 camio: And because laziness can lead to subtle and surprising problems. 22:20:06 eli: I certainly see your latter point. 22:20:07 camio: And because laziness makes it hard to have good debuggers. 22:20:11 I much perfer something from the ML family then Haskell 22:20:11 ATM I lack the energy for the n+1th attempt. 22:20:23 eli: Yup, that point too. 22:20:38 camio: And because IO, even with the Haskell machinery, is much less natural than in a strict language. 22:20:42 ML at least I can understand, if not write well. 22:20:50 I do like purity though and think it is a better introduction to computer science than imperativeness. 22:20:54 eli: s/strict/impure 22:21:04 *jcowan* fears the monad. 22:21:19 Most people fear what they don't understand. 22:21:20 jcowan: They are tied up, of course. 22:21:40 I understand them fine. "Mauger that I fears them." 22:22:09 camio: And I'm saying all of that, but I *do* appreciate the cool property of the IO type as a sign that this function is threaded in some IO activity, and I *do* appreciate type systems very much, and I *do* appreciate laziness where appropriate. 22:22:27 Riastradh: Metacircular evaluators? 22:22:48 camio: As witnesses I can bring Typed Scheme which I'm using in my class extensively, and Lazy Scheme, which I implemented in PLT. 22:23:00 *jcowan* thinks n00bs should be taught Joy. 22:23:14 eli: I think IO is not natural because computers were built with the imperative mind set, but that need not be the case. 22:23:23 Teach them Scheme, and they will learn joy. Or else. 22:23:31 *eli* thinks that Joy will definitely make Haskell look more intuitive. 22:24:18 camio: Well, the idea of representing IO is pretty nice as a pure abstraction layer on top of the imperative nature of the tool. 22:24:23 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-11-191.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 22:24:42 I just don't think that it's appropriate in an *intro* course. 22:24:43 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:25:04 Or Pure. Haskell is feeble compared to Pure. Lambda calculus, bah! An arbitrary and unnecessary restriction. 22:25:13 And, of course, Pure is impure. 22:25:32 hrm, interesting thoughts. I'm trying to get excited about re-learning scheme. 22:25:50 And strict. 22:25:56 *jcowan* is apparently a closet authoritarian. 22:27:53 What if the intro course just wrote programs without any IO? Essentially, just a set of functions. Probably would be a great mathematical basis but would turn many students off. 22:28:50 camio: That's probably the sane way to go with an intro class -- but there are the other problems, still... 22:29:35 As for IO -- one very common problem is that you always get excited students who want to do more, and that will almost immediately make them run straight into IO. 22:31:01 Yeah, that's why I was thinking certain students would be turned off. 22:31:30 Maybe if it was a parallel course to some class with language that has lots of libraries and interoperability. 22:31:43 Python FTW, then. 22:31:49 At least it's not a *retarded* PL. 22:32:08 Python is *much* more retarded than it looks. 22:32:25 I know about the one-line lambdas. What else? 22:32:41 BACOON [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #scheme 22:32:52 A certain recent flamewar is a huge point against it. 22:33:05 ? 22:33:11 *jcowan* stares blankly. 22:33:24 *jcowan* flushes the offby1 DNA he seems to have acquired somehow. 22:33:40 It's whole deal with reifying environments as hash tables, kind-of, sort-of. 22:33:56 I was personally thinking something more low-level, like C. 22:34:04 Auuuughhh! 22:34:20 C combines the power of assembly language with the beauty of assembly language. 22:34:33 "Transposons! Virii in disguise!" (sung to the "Transposers" theme) 22:34:35 And of course when you write it like Riastradh, who *fully* parenthesizes all operators, it's even worse. 22:34:56 *jcowan* thunders against the pseudo-Latin "virii". 22:35:02 Hee. 22:35:12 The recent Python flamewar was when the Diktator decided in his infinite wisdom that tail call optimization is not fashionable enough. 22:35:37 Do those who write "virii" suppose that the singular is "virius"? Of course not. They *suppose* nothing at all. 22:35:43 (You make `viruses' scan and get back to me, then.) 22:35:45 -!- Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:35:48 -!- BACOON is now known as Baconizer 22:35:56 I like C in that it is very close to what the machine actually is and has lots of interoperability. I think it could be very educational in some respects. 22:36:23 Educational, it certainly would be. So would Marine basic training for all. 22:37:36 jcowan: Do you have an alternative in mind? 22:37:49 I know: how about C++? 22:38:32 Because, it has all the features of the low level language C and all the high level features of Haskell? 22:38:54 Yeah...something like that, um. 22:38:58 I don't want my students to commit suicide my friend. 22:39:02 An introductory course featuring C and Haskell. That is going to be so groovy. 22:39:29 I'd separate them into two courses with orthogonal material. 22:39:48 The haskell course ending with fix point semantics. The C course ending with OpenGL perhaps. 22:41:24 But then, I really want to see how scheme can fit into this. I just don't know how :( 22:42:42 camio: What do you mean by "fix point semantics"? 22:42:50 I suppose I have an aversion to mixing imperative stuff (what it does) with mathematical stuff (what it is) and that is just what scheme does to a certain extent. 22:43:35 Which is what makes it great 22:44:05 multiple paradigms rule 22:44:35 eli: I mean going through the proof of how least fix point works to make recursive functions make sense in denotational semantics. 22:45:09 eli: Like lattices, continuous functions, etc. 22:45:26 camio: So that's no longer what I'd consider "intro"... 22:45:31 If you want to show lots of stuff, scheme might be the best. nearly no syntax to learn, you can focus on the concepts 22:45:39 eli: Well lets say its an advanced intro course. 22:46:09 eli: I consider denotational semantics to be more important than Complexity theory. 22:46:10 In that case things are different, and Haskell becomes more viable... 22:46:22 Yeah 22:46:38 PLT has a great environment, and you can use languages like typed scheme if you want to show type theory and whatnot :3 22:46:43 scheme is the best education language< 22:46:47 I don't know about that... Not understanding complexity can lead to really bad programming. 22:47:33 eli: Yeah, I'd expect them to learn that in a later course. First I'd like to see nice looking programs, later speedy nice looking programs. 22:47:33 camio: re the "does" vs "is" -- Scheme is better than Haskell in talking about this because it allows you to have both. In particular, I like to show how you can convert a "does" to an "is" using thunks. 22:48:16 also it can be both functional and have bits of imperative to it 22:48:57 (Use ERLANG! USE ERLANG!) 22:49:02 eli: I can see how Scheme would make it easier to connect the two concepts. 22:49:44 eli:Why is scheme particularly bad about learning about algorithmic complexity? 22:51:17 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-65.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 22:51:23 At my college, CS starts with an intro to algorithms - there is no "intro to programming". They just gave us the language manual and a compiler (Pascal back then) and expect us to learn the language ourselves as we go along. Anyway, I don't see why Scheme wouldn't have done just as well in that kind of intro class. 22:51:37 Summermute: I don't think I ever said that, and I don't think that it's particularly bad. 22:52:03 eli: Whoops, sorry I'm catching up on a longish thread here. 22:52:29 Summermute: The only point that might make it (and other functional languages) bad is that most theory/complexity textbooks are so horribly imperative... 22:53:17 People who do theory seem to be faster to dismiss the choice of language as an "engineering issue" that they shouldn't really concern themselves with. 22:53:24 *eli* cues in the violins 22:53:58 In one of the complexity courses that I took I was horrified by the TM mess -- with fluffy/hand-wavy semantics for different kinds of arros. 22:54:07 s/os./ows./ 22:54:12 *jcowan* has never taken a course in CS or programming or anything related. 22:54:15 Yes, but really scheme works just dandy as a good old imperative language - mutable variables, looping constructs, embedded definitions (like Pascal), mutable data structures. If anything, I think that it's one of Scheme's shortcomngs :-) 22:54:33 Except its do-loop sucks. 22:54:36 I tried to convince the teacher that LC is much better to express these kind of stuff -- and even did a HW in both TMs and LC. 22:54:50 He thought it was interesting, but of course didn't change anything... 22:55:00 ISLisp has a for-loop, and I was hopeful, but no, it was the same old do-loop with s/do/for. Literally. Why bother? 22:55:02 *eli* turns off the violins and goes outside. 22:55:15 Yeah, that bike ins' 22:55:16 I like do now that I've gotten used to it (from CL days) 22:55:29 t going to ride itself. Hasta. 22:57:17 What are TM and LC? 22:57:33 turing machines and lambda calculus 22:57:41 Is it SRFI-42 that is the one with all the cool for loops, guards, comprehension, folds, etc. ??? 22:57:43 ah 22:58:04 jcowan: That's high class looping :-) 22:58:47 eli: Is there anyway to get a standalone windows binary of of DrScheme? 22:58:50 Is while part of the scheme standard? If not, does pretty much every implementation provide a while macro??? 22:59:24 eli: What do you mean by "standalone" ? 23:00:01 Summermute: I'm danking, but standalone as in one executable file. 23:00:09 Summermute: It is not part of the standard, because it's trivial to write a named let with when, which is not part of R5RS either (it is in R6RS) but is quite generally provided 23:01:09 I'm new to DrScheme, so I've been reading he docs. I believe there is a way to wrap up an application's byte codes with a stub executable/virtual machine packing it all up. 23:01:42 I'm looking for a 2D game library like lispbuilder-sdl but for Scheme. 23:02:12 Summermute: I suppose I _could_ compile all of DrScheme myself into a single executable, but I wouldn't even know where to begin with that 23:02:27 Edward: wich implementation? 23:02:53 no, take a look at the docs for "mzc" - I think we're talking something alot easier than you're anticipating 23:03:11 karme, PLT Scheme/ mzshceme 23:03:44 Edward: ah ok - can't be of help there 23:04:17 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:19 Edward: maybe take a look at fluxus: http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/ 23:04:28 karme, you know one with an other implementation ? 23:04:45 danking: I'm 98% sure you don't have to recompile all of Dr/mz-scheme to produce a standalone executable of your program :-) 23:04:59 Summermute: Not _my_ program, DrScheme 23:05:01 Edward: fluxus is not exactly what you want - but you will probably like it anyway 23:05:25 Oh, hmmmmmmm 23:06:01 Edward: i personally like gauche + gauche c-wrapper - see also http://egachine.berlios.de/sgachine/ - and ypsilon looks interesting to me, too 23:06:38 danking: Then what do you want DrScheme to "standalone" _from_? 23:06:40 "SDL" 23:06:43 fine karme 23:07:30 Edward: today it might be better to use openg for 2d stuff, too 23:07:38 ~s/openg/opengl 23:07:58 though sdl 1.3 will do that, too (afaik) 23:08:10 Summermute: Here's an example: I want a single exe file that I can run and get the DrScheme IDE and the capability to install new languages. 23:09:07 Oh, that would be pretty cool. I wouldn't be surprised, but the PLT Scheme mailing list should quickly clarify the issues involved. 23:09:32 Summermute: True, but I figured if eli was here I'd just ask 23:13:25 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 23:14:09 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:17:19 danking: Actuall, I thought that the editor (minus the wxWindows stuff) was written in Scheme. There could well be some "baggage." 23:17:57 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:34:14 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-120.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:40:43 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 23:41:16 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 23:43:43 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [Client Quit] 23:44:45 Riastradh: is there a specific reason you haven't factored out the list construction in the xvector test suite? 23:45:41 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:05 Factored out the list construction? 23:47:19 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 23:48:57 -!- masm [n=masm@bl9-114-113.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:49:33 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:52:07 karlw [n=karl@asuc-wlan-net-26.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:52:24 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:41 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 23:55:56 Riastradh: in `push-pop-list' and `xvector->list', there is a loop that works like a limited version of SRFI-1's `iota' 23:56:08 *Riastradh* shrugs. 23:56:39 I wasn't using SRFI 1 for anything else. 23:57:10 I'm adding another test for an `list->xvector' procedure, which needs the same loop 23:57:35 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-181.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 23:57:36 Riastradh: I'm not proposing to use `iota', but just to pull that loop out of the testcases 23:57:53 Go ahead. 23:58:18 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:38 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@ip68-111-70-47.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]