00:07:35 Riastradh, When you say "I hope your parser is not looking for the word 'define' or anything." -- did you just mean that I should not be blindly assuming that the word 'define' means what in means in the default environment, or did you mean literally that it should never look for the word define? 00:10:29 Your parser shouldn't have anything to do with particular names that occur in the text. 00:11:13 I *was* looking for the word 'define', but I was *not* making any assumptions about what it means, other than when execution begins (after which the program can change the meaning of define) 00:13:06 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:05 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:19:16 -!- poucet [n=poucet@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:20 poucet [n=poucet@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 00:25:14 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:13 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:26:26 Why were you looking for the word `define'? 00:28:55 MononcQc [n=mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:29:17 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:32:37 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-151.res.pomona.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:32:50 I'm solving my way through SICP this month, feels like I didn't know anything about programming before reading this thing :s 00:33:39 Scheme ought to have a SIGNUM procedure, to complement ABS, so that (= n (* (SIGNUM n) (ABS n))). 00:34:43 nightmode, what chapter are you at? 00:34:45 I guess people doing signals processing would find that useful 00:34:54 chapter 2 at the moment 00:35:14 nice. I'm at 2.5 00:35:15 I'm also following along with the video lectures 00:35:25 oh, no video for me, ut I'm doing every excerise 00:35:26 -!- jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@cpe-69-205-162-163.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:35:35 am I missing out by not watching the videos? 00:36:07 I don't think so, they cover less than the text in my opinion, but they're fun to watch 00:36:13 oh, nice then 00:36:17 I bought the hardcover book 00:36:20 jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@cpe-69-205-162-163.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:36:20 very nice 00:36:22 -!- masm [n=masm@bl8-56-187.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:36:58 heh, I wish I could find a deadwood copy of the text, I'm working off a pdf :s 00:37:09 I bought it on amazon 00:37:23 the html version had some images hard to read, so no regret 00:40:27 -!- jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@cpe-69-205-162-163.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:41:17 jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@cpe-69-205-162-163.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:43:16 I'm being stumped by the get and put functions though. Not being able to test stuff because they're not implemented sucks (and the implementations I've seen based on hash table apparently won't work in mzscheme's shell) 00:43:48 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 00:45:01 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:09 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 00:47:12 hmm.. I haven't got there yet, but I know what you mean about things not being implemented 00:47:31 working on MIT/GNU scheme is strange 00:47:47 MononcQc: you can implement them yourself using lists... it's not like you'll need the performance 00:49:01 dysinger [n=dysinger@97-126-108-156.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 00:49:05 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #scheme 00:50:00 jeapostrophe_ [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:50:37 jao, true, it's more about the global state or something? 00:50:43 It sounds like it needs to be global 00:51:00 which I guess would require to use set! (although it has not been shown yet) 00:51:01 MononcQc: is that a problem? 00:51:20 well, I'm trying to learn as I go through the book and don't go too fast forward 00:52:21 MononcQc: you can also give http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-plt/ a try 00:57:37 that'll force me to use plt, but alright, that can be helpful 00:57:57 plt is nice 01:02:22 I just like doing my things in the shell with vim and then the command-line interpreter 01:02:53 haesbaert [n=haesbaer@201.54.129.16] has joined #scheme 01:03:07 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:04:37 MononcQc: It's possible, and even relatively easy to use PLT in text mode. 01:04:42 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has quit [Client Quit] 01:04:54 oh right, I'm confusing it with dr scheme 01:04:57 sorry 01:05:02 MononcQc: Just use `mred-text' as the executable for it (since it requires some gui stuff, IIRC). 01:05:14 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:05:14 -!- jeapostrophe_ is now known as jeapostrophe 01:05:17 aight 01:09:41 jao pasted "sicp's put/get" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87264 01:10:27 MononcQc: if memory serves, that ^ should do the trick 01:10:35 Why was SRFI 67 so bloody complicated? It could have been a good idea, if it were two pages long instead of sixty and without all the default comparator and optional parameter garbage. 01:11:12 oh, I haven't tried make-hash, just make-hash-table 01:11:15 Will try that 01:17:20 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:18:23 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@209.131.62.113] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:24:09 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 01:26:02 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:29:57 chylli` [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 01:31:38 Where has jcowan gone? I want to bother him with fruitless Scheme report suggestions. 01:32:47 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has quit [Client Quit] 01:32:54 chandler, perhaps you're around to discuss such fruitlessness. 01:33:47 -!- chylli` [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has left #scheme 01:34:00 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 01:34:42 Sorry. I'm quite rectilinear right now, as I'm working on Important Stuff at the moment. 01:35:59 -!- haesbaert [n=haesbaer@201.54.129.16] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:22 But I wanted to discuss the fine subtleties of SIGNUM. That has to be more Important! 01:38:11 why can't you just define signum as (lambda (x) (if (positive? x) 1 -1)) 01:38:26 Because that's totally wrong? 01:38:49 Here are two possible definitions: (define (signum x) (if (zero? x) x (/ (magnitude x) x))) (define (signum x) (cond ((positive? x) +1) ((zero? x) 0) ((negative? x) -1) (else (error "Argument out of domain:" x signum] 01:39:29 These behave differently in very important ways -- namely, the first may yield inexact results, but the second is not defined on complex numbers. 01:39:59 I'm sorry, I was going by the condition you provided above, not the unspoken one in your mind. 01:41:00 Well, the condition I stated admits either definition, if you restrict the first to real numbers (and substitute ABS for MAGNITUDE). 01:41:20 Or, if you substitute MAGNITUDE for ABS in the condition, it admits either definition as-is. 01:41:22 Why does it not admit mine? 01:41:57 Oh, I suppose it does admit yours. 01:42:03 But your definition is still bogus! 01:42:21 That is, no self-respecting function that calls itself a signum function behaves that way. 01:42:36 Explain how a signum function should behave. 01:43:04 It should return zero for zero, -1 for negative real numbers, and +1 for positive real numbers. 01:43:27 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:32 Now, when I say `-1' and `+1' here, I mean that it should return a number n that satisfies (= n -1) or (= n +1), not that the number that it returns has external representation `-1' or `+1' in Scheme. 01:44:10 The question, of course, is whether the result of SIGNUM should be permitted to be inexact. Furthermore, if SIGNUM accepts complex numbers, its output may turn out to be any unit complex number, not just -1 or +1. 01:44:16 Fine. Next time give that definition, rather than the one that admits my definition, if you're going to say my solution is dumb. 01:47:22 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:47:24 Sorry, I apologize if what I said seemed an affront -- I hoped that my tone indicated the jest I intended in this, ah, Important conversation. 01:48:42 Riastradh, I had to go away for a bit earlier. You asked "Why were you looking for the word `define'?" ... I am using the EBNF grammar in R5RS to set up a Perl 6 grammar. The R5RS grammar has production rules that contain the string '(define ' in them, so I was creating a corresponding rule in the Perl 6 grammar that contained '(define' in it as well. I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding your question... 01:49:17 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 01:50:23 For example, --> (define ) is one such production rule. 01:50:46 Are you saying that when actually implementing the grammar, that define should not be present anywhere in there? 01:50:53 *arcfide* puts down the cold, frozen trout and starts calming himself. 01:50:59 jrtayloriv: Okay.... 01:51:19 That's right, jrtayloriv: what your parser should be doing is reading external representations of Scheme data. 01:51:49 jrtayloriv: Normally, when you want to write, say, an interpreter for Scheme, you start with a parser, that takes a stream of text, or characters, and turns it into a structure that the interpreter then uses. 01:52:38 jrtayloriv: So, when you see a production run in R5RS like -> (define ....) it doesn't mean the string of text there, it means the list whose first element is the symbol DEFINE. 01:52:41 Then if you want to interpret those as Scheme programs, you look at the parsed structures: `Is the car of this list the symbol DEFINE?' (or, preferably, `You there, environment! What's the meaning of the car of this list?') 01:53:26 Before you can start dealing with R5RS productions, you should parse the incoming stream of text into the proper lisp structure, or, S-expression. 01:54:16 *jrtayloriv* is listening -- trying to make sure he understands ... 01:54:23 Riastradh: i would have enjoyed arguing fruitlessly about the details of SIGNUM, but unfortunately, I too was doing real work for once, and could not contribute. 01:55:22 You may find it easier to start with , jrtayloriv -- and then concern yourself only with the first half of the document. 01:55:31 arcfide: don't worry, the discussion was no less fruitless without you. 01:55:44 incubot: triple negative get? 01:55:47 I'm a triple agent for the CIA, the Russian Federal Police, and al-Qaida. 01:55:57 I suspected as much. 01:56:08 incubot: u2? 01:56:28 incubot: why don't you like me? 01:56:31 this sounds like a case where structures would be handy. 01:56:52 incubot: tell sladgen about the Edge 01:56:55 They now have an all C++/XML project. I don't know how they're reading the XML. I'm glad I'm not working there now. -- It's on Windows, bleeding-edge gaming platform of the sort that I don't own. 01:56:59 incubot: your structure of love is damaged ;-p 01:57:02 It says the file is damaged. Are you finished uploading? 01:57:10 That document also better expresses the recursive-descent structure of S-expressions, too. 01:58:08 incubot: yes, stfu, rst, Ctr-D, now. 01:58:11 Its been said that stfu is Send Them Far, Umkay? 01:58:13 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@97-126-108-156.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:58:37 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:58:42 There you are, jcowan! 01:58:49 I have a fruitless discussion for the Scheme report process: SIGNUM! 01:59:13 We've already hashed it over once, leaving zbigniew miffed at me for calling him a dunderhead, but I think we can do better. 01:59:14 No discussion with you is ever fruitless. 01:59:52 This discussion is like comparing apples and oranges 01:59:56 I'd like to see this procedure, or perhaps both of these procedures, in Scheme, because they're useful. 02:00:18 Should I look in the logs? 02:00:22 No, zbigniew! I do not want to compare apples and oranges. That's what SRFI 67 is all about, and I thought I had established already that SRFI 67 is an unbelievably complicated mess. 02:00:59 This discussion is like comparing lambda, mu, and nu 02:01:06 Two possible definitions for that name are: (define (signum x) (if (zero? x) x (/ (magnitude x) x))) (define (signum x) (cond ((positive? x) +1)) ((zero? x) 0) ((negative? x) -1) (else (error "Argument out of domain:" x signum] 02:01:11 amca_ [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:02:53 One definition accepts complex numbers, and returns any unit complex numbers, i.e. complex numbers z satisfying (= 1.0 (MAGNITUDE z)). The other definition always returns one of the exact integers -1, 0, or +1. Any definition should at least send positive real numbers to +1 (i.e., to some real number r satisfying (= r +1)), real zero to 0, and negative real numbers to -1. 02:03:37 *jcowan* nods. 02:03:42 The definition on complex numbers is obviously useful only for complex numerical applications. The definition on real numbers, yielding exact integral values, is useful for comparison. 02:04:06 I am not sure whether there is any other useful definition, or whether there is any good pair of names by which these two definitions could be distinguished. 02:04:30 complex-signum and real-signum come to mind. 02:04:31 seems to me if you want to handle complex numbers you can still check for real? to avoid the division 02:05:07 That is tempting, zbigniew, but you need to worry about inexactness contagion, complicating the definition further. 02:06:02 Excuse me: Earlier I said `One definition accepts complex numbers, and returns any unit complex numbers...' I omitted: `or zero'. 02:06:21 I take the R6RS position that real numbers are those whose imaginary part is *exact* zero, BTW. 02:06:44 In Common Lisp, by the way, SIGNUM has the definition that you called COMPLEX-SIGNUM. 02:08:01 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:21 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:08:50 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 02:09:58 -!- amca_ is now known as amca 02:10:44 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:11:09 SRFI 67 defines useful but badly named syntax REFINE-COMPARE that is like AND and OR, but for lexicographical comparison. 02:11:15 go with first and call it normnum... 02:11:34 Badly named, that is, because it doesn't indicate that it expresses lexicographical comparison. 02:11:42 -!- nightmode [n=Carbon@194.146.155.70] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:53 What should it be called instead? 02:12:12 I like LEXICOGRAPHICAL-COMPARISON, is just a trifle more verbose than AND and OR. 02:12:52 -!- MononcQc [n=mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING NEXT VERSION OF INTERNET"] 02:14:14 even save two letters with LEXICOGRAPHIC-COMPARISON 02:15:22 Yes, but you can't pronounce that as well: the C's swallow one another. 02:15:35 COMPARE-LEXICOGRAPHIC 02:16:02 I want COMPARE- to be read as an imperative: COMPARE-REALS, COMPARE-EXACT-INTEGERS, COMPARE-STRINGS, COMPARE-STRINGS/CI, &c. 02:16:15 REAL-COMPARE sounds awfully clumsy. 02:16:21 *jcowan* agrees 02:16:25 I see. 02:16:36 Is this notion of comparing complex numbers as dimwitted as I think it is? 02:17:04 LEXICOGRAPHICOMPARISON 02:17:11 You can define a total order on complex numbers, but it will give you only a field that is totally ordered, not an ordered field. 02:17:31 For example, you can give complex numbers whichever of the two lexicographical total orders you want. 02:17:39 Any number of total orders, I suppose. But all useless. 02:18:13 Not necessarily. But none is as obviously generally useful as (define (compare-reals a b) (signum (- a b))). 02:19:56 For example, you might, for some reason, want to use complex numbers as keys in some data structure that requires a total order on its keys. In that case, you will have to choose some total order. 02:19:57 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:20:24 Granted. I presume that's what SRFI-67 is all about. 02:20:43 Yes. In other words, SRFI 67 is full of arbitrary nonsense that is not remotely generally useful. 02:22:02 COMPARE- the ultimate imperative 02:23:02 Why not AND-COMPARE? 02:24:01 It's not quite like AND. 02:25:03 Nor, I suppose, is it really lexicographical, because it doesn't have to do with two sequences of totally ordered elements; but it turns up in the definition of lexicographical orders. 02:25:13 LGP-COMPARE 02:25:19 LGP? 02:25:35 I've seen that abreviation around when talking about lexicographic things. 02:26:08 Lexicographic goal programming? 02:26:48 I'm not sure I like the term to apply to what I think this REFINE procedure does, though. 02:27:06 It's not a procedure. 02:27:15 Yes, sorry. 02:28:07 OT: SRFI-101 has convinced me of the merits of rename-on-export. 02:28:10 Maybe `refine' is the right word. After all, there is a sequence of comparisons of descending coarseness, or of descending significance. 02:28:29 *jcowan* nods. 02:28:55 I'm convinced. But it should be called REFINE-COMPARISON, perhaps with some inflection on the verb, not REFINE-COMPARE. 02:30:28 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:30:46 refined-comparison, perhaps. 02:31:01 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:31:03 refinery-comparison 02:37:03 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 02:38:42 My refinery is more refined than your refinery! 02:48:47 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [No route to host] 02:49:16 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:51:42 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-231-131.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 02:52:46 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176212225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:54 Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:54:28 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Farewell"] 03:03:15 BTW, Riastradh, I have now almost finished my serious of small-Scheme proposals, except for the death of string-set! (where I know you agree with me) and what I have to say about modules, which isn't fully cooked. So if you feel up to reviewing them, I'd be glad of it. 03:03:27 http://tinyurl.com/thing-one and links therefrom. 03:06:28 Is MAKE-LIST all that useful for any purpose but symmetry? 03:08:17 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176195133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:49 I find myself wanting it all the time somehow, usually for big lists full of #fs or other placeholders. 03:09:33 The other day I wanted a hundred 0s, and was in the middle of an interactive define, so I punted by writing (vector->list (make-vector 100 0)). 03:09:50 Any particular reason you wanted a hundred zeros? 03:10:14 There was, but I don't remember it. It was in pursuit of a line of reasoning that didn't work out. 03:10:48 It may have been when I was playing around with different Schemes and their treatment of expt. 03:11:20 Some return exact results when they can, others not, in one case the output was deceptive (it looked exact but wasn't) 03:12:19 (define one-hundred (apply + (vector->list (make-vector 100 1)))) 03:12:22 At least tell me you recycled all those zeroes. 03:12:33 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:13:12 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:33 schemer999 [n=schemer9@76.89.231.7] has joined #scheme 03:15:27 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 03:15:59 is it possible to introduce a variable in scheme with a name from a string? 03:16:16 That depends on what Scheme system, and what macro system, you are using, schemer999. 03:16:24 gambit 03:16:56 Gambit supports SYNTAX-CASE, so you can write a macro that accepts a literal string and expands, say, to a reference to the variable identified by the symbol whose name is that string: 03:17:50 (define-syntax foo (lambda (form) (syntax-case form () ((foo string) (datum->syntax-object (syntax foo) (string->symbol (syntax-object->datum (syntax string] 03:19:17 zbigniew: I got the GC to do it for me. 03:19:18 Then, assuming that the reader reads symbols' names in lowercase by default, the expression (let ((fnord 5)) (foo "fnord")) will yield 5. 03:21:16 ok, thanks Riastradh. 03:23:19 i'm new to macros, but that will help. 03:23:38 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:28:40 Riastradh: would you recommend dybvig's book for a scheme macro introduction? 03:29:30 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:36:33 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:38:21 Now that there's a SRFI for random-access lists, someone should write a SRFI for bounded-balance binary trees (or what Stephen Adams calls weight-balanced binary trees). 03:39:31 schemer999, not particularly, no, but I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions for a good introduction to Scheme macros. 03:40:39 foof [n=user@FLH1Ahz107.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 03:41:05 ok, thx. 03:42:08 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:44:47 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:35 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:14 chylli` [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 03:55:07 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 03:56:29 korvin_ [n=korvin@95-52-175-142.dynamic.komi.dslavangard.ru] has joined #scheme 03:58:15 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 03:58:33 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@76.89.231.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection 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[n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 14:22:53 Where have I gone? What have you done to me?! 14:23:43 ? 14:24:06 Eek. It's an impostor. 14:24:13 Syntax errar. 14:26:35 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:27:50 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:28:26 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-199-40.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:05 Ha! I have defeated myself! 14:30:25 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:30:46 -!- ASau [n=user@host53-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:57 i, j, and k must have passed in the night like so many forgotten integer indices. 14:35:15 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:35:29 But were they really forgotten, or were they always present only in the imagination? 14:35:51 Can an index indeed be imaginary? Hmmm. 14:36:23 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:36:31 *Daemmerung* ponders ponderously 14:41:38 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-207.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:44:55 -!- nightmode [n=Carbon@194.146.155.70] has left #scheme 14:48:42 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-48-189.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:49:03 bweaver [n=user@24-247-129-155.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 14:50:58 Hey! 14:51:23 I thought I put you away for good. 14:52:04 evidently not! 14:53:30 Nope! Nice try, buster. Go soak your head. 14:53:46 Oh, no! I'm melllllting! I'm meeellllllllltinnnnngggg... 14:53:50 -!- Riastrad1 [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["Oh, what a world, what a world!"] 14:54:22 that was somewhat surrealist. 14:55:00 only somewhat ? 14:55:08 only somewhat 14:55:16 It didn't involve any flying monkeys, for example. 14:55:27 Now it does. 14:55:31 nah, flying monkeys are passe 14:56:18 flying android dreams...now THAT would be surrealist 14:56:28 Nose demons would be more apropos. 14:56:40 non-working wrist watches ! 14:56:58 (particularly if I hyphenate for clarity: flying android-dreams) 14:56:58 that beats the flyinh monkeys 14:57:03 rainbows! 14:57:24 Hey, leave R6RS out of this. 14:57:24 oh.. unicorns 14:57:37 invisible pink spaghetti monsters! 14:57:50 that's scary 14:57:59 *dstorrs* bows and does a victory lap. 14:58:03 knowing the color when you can't see it.. 14:58:13 They are sleeping furiously. 14:58:28 and dreaming the dreams of sleeping androids. 14:58:41 Or sheeping androids. 14:58:47 I have an even surrealer idea: we could incorporate Scheme into the drama. 14:58:49 invisible sheeps 14:58:50 all of which are Dickensian. 14:59:01 You wake up as a clam; burgers everywhere roll down hills, and freedom turns lilac. 14:59:07 what about my non-working wrist watch 14:59:07 obviously, the sheep are recursive 14:59:11 and macro-generated 14:59:23 Riastradh: no need, for soon the day's avalanche of jejune r6rs-discuss messages will resume. 14:59:36 How many messages are on that list? Has it broken a thousand? 15:00:20 Dunno. I purge my Trash folder with a quickness. 15:00:40 speaking of macros by the way...this should be trivial, but I'm apparently missing a concept: writing a macro that wraps another macro. 15:01:07 but first does some Scheme mangling on the args to the other macro. 15:01:23 Please be more specific, dstorrs, for instance with actual code. 15:01:24 lisppaste: url 15:01:24 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 15:02:03 actually, all I was going to say was: are the macro constructors equivalent for this purpose, or should I be focusing on a particular one? 15:02:16 I'm trying to grok the docs. 15:02:25 code coming, though. 15:03:29 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:33 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:04:57 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87281 15:05:29 First, why is this a macro? 15:05:45 Why don't you just substitute DEFINE for DEFINE-SYNTAX-RULE? 15:07:05 (include-template) is a macro provided from web-server/templates. At compile time it takes a relstring / file / lib argument, locates the appropriate template, loads that file, and compiles it into a string representation in your code. 15:07:14 nightmode [n=Carbon@194.146.155.70] has joined #scheme 15:07:30 ... Well, it's not getting a string at compile time. It's getting the syntax object that represents (string-append root p). 15:07:34 Aha! So you need to generate an argument to a macro in your macro. Well, SYNTAX-RULES cannot append strings. 15:08:04 More precisely, if you wrote (template "foo"), what you'll get is an expression containing (include-template (string-append root "foo")). 15:08:13 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo1@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:08:17 yep, that's what I've been seeing. 15:08:17 But more fundamentally, how do you know what ROOT is at compile-time? 15:08:31 Do you want to call GETENV at compile-time? 15:08:49 well, I'm ok with that unless there's a specific reason not to.... 15:09:07 You tell us. Is that the right thing in this case? 15:09:33 Do you want to locate and use the file at compile-time? 15:09:45 Yes. 15:09:53 OK. In that case, you'll probably want something like 15:10:01 Or, more specifically, I want to take advantage of the web servers templating system, which works at compile time. 15:10:29 and I recognize the trade offs involved, and accept them. 15:10:49 (define-syntax template (lambda (form) (syntax-case form () ((template p) (let* ((varname ...) ...) (if root (with-syntax [(pathname (datum->syntax (syntax template) (string-append root p] (syntax (include-template pathname)) ...] 15:12:30 I don't think you need to re-wrap a string. 15:13:25 Riastradh: I think that got cut off...it ended at: "(syntax (include-template pathname)) ...]" 15:13:34 The ] is shorthand for ))))...))) 15:13:43 or however many close parens that expression needed 15:13:53 oh, that's a cool bit of sugar. 15:13:55 dstorrs, yes, if you saw `...]', that was the end of my message. 15:13:59 I hadn't seen that. 15:14:13 PLT Scheme doesn't actually let you do that. 15:14:19 It's an old Interlisp usage. The "super-paren." 15:14:48 Similarly, in this notation, if there is an opening [, then a closing ] closes all the necessary round brackets first. 15:15:27 ah, ok. 15:15:46 This is useful for interactive input, although of course one would never write it in a permanent program. 15:15:56 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-6-60.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 15:17:51 jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.139] has joined #scheme 15:18:47 *jcowan* works on the string-set! must die draft 15:20:26 *offby1* works on the chorus and parts of the verse 15:20:32 what rhymes with "die"? 15:20:46 Fie, tie, dye, why, rye? 15:20:46 Lie, and delicious pie. 15:20:49 "pie" 15:20:57 sty! 15:21:03 *offby1* regrets asking 15:21:15 Sly? Ply? Qwai? 15:21:21 The ratio of a circle's circ to its dia. 15:21:25 (as in, bridge over the river) 15:21:33 *Daemmerung* whistles 15:21:48 Bad Daemmerung. Bad! 15:21:48 rhymezone.com is your friend. 15:21:48 Try, fry, cry... 15:21:59 Also, neko neko kawaii. 15:22:09 http://rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=die&typeofrhyme=perfect&org1=syl&org2=l 15:22:10 *gnomon* moves away from Daemmerung on the bench, there 15:22:13 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/mhcc5b 15:22:23 *Daemmerung* puts on a stained fur-suit 15:22:38 That's the bench where they put you if they're not sure you're moral enough to join the Internet Society? 15:23:25 http://arlo.net/resources/lyrics/alice_flame.shtml <-- On the actual Arlo Guthrie site! FTW! 15:23:52 Riastradh: being quiet because am poking at that code, trying to understand it. Thanks for the tip. 15:24:06 jcowan: you wrote that?? 15:24:09 Yes. 15:24:14 *Daemmerung* gushes 15:24:34 On the basis of earlier versions. Somehow my acknoweldgements got lost when the site picked it up. 15:26:16 Hm, the version I remember didn't mention SCSI, or Microsoft, or indeed anything post-1980-something. 15:27:19 It was all about DEC and the Vaxes, back then. 15:28:35 On associations with in-place update, one can make a useful and general operation which I call UPDATE!, to be used like so: (update! (lambda (datum replace delete) ...) (lambda (insert) ...)). The first procedure is called if there is a datum associated with the key, and the second if not; (REPLACE ) replces it, (DELETE) deletes it, and (INSERT ) inserts one. 15:29:50 REPLACE, DELETE, and INSERT need return nothing interesting, because the update happens in place, and UPDATE! can tail-call the two procedures passed to it. 15:31:10 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:10 How should this look for associations with functional update? Should the two procedures still be tail-called, with REPLACE, DELETE, and INSERT returning new associations; or should the two procedures accept an additional argument, DO-NOTHING, and be required to call one of REPLACE, DELETE, or DO-NOTHING, or one of INSERT or DO-NOTHING? 15:31:37 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:31:56 samth_ [n=samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:32:04 The latter is easier to implement in most cases. 15:32:23 The former is easy to implement given composable continuations, but programs may not want to incur that cost. 15:33:02 The former allows UPDATE! to return more than just the new association, if the procedures you pass to it so desire. The latter does not. 15:33:03 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 15:33:08 Discuss! 15:33:30 Daemmerung: Yes. I don't remember exactly when I wrote that, but I wanted to bring the ancient AI Lab versions up to date. 15:33:44 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 15:33:54 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:34:40 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:01 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 15:37:43 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 15:37:55 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:34 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:49:10 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:33 -!- samth_ is now known as samth 15:53:41 -!- amoeba [i=82c09bc2@gateway/web/freenode/x-xwkoqnbupbzcaafr] has quit ["Page closed"] 16:03:34 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:04:34 jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:09:25 What is SRFI 67's `comparing as vectors' useful for? Comparing two sequences `as vectors' first compares their length, and then lexicographically compares their elements. 16:10:37 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 16:13:22 -!- mmc [n=mima@192.100.124.219] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:06 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.127.112] has joined #scheme 16:15:11 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 16:15:33 jcowan, your epic retelling led me to read up on the song that inspired it. First time I've ever done that. I've still never actually heard it, but now I want to. 16:16:45 Obviously you were not brought up right, i.e. in a household that plays *AR* every Thanksgiving. 16:16:56 (I wasn't either, to be sure.) 16:17:02 But I do so in my own household. 16:17:53 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:18:02 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 16:18:31 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:46 Perhaps the name for COMPLEX-SIGNUM should be DIRECTION. 16:24:05 After all, it satisfies (= z (* (DIRECTION z) (MAGNITUDE z))). 16:25:06 How about complex-unit? 16:25:19 Well, it doesn't always give you a unit. 16:25:23 unit-vector would be confusing, given the different meaning of "vector". 16:25:48 I think that DIRECTION is nicely symmetric with MAGNITUDE. 16:25:48 I thought it was always a unit vector? 16:25:52 Not if it's zero. 16:26:09 Gaah. Yes. 16:26:42 I take it that the point of SRFI-67 is to lay down *some* comparison, however arbitrary. #f < #t? WTF? (Does that owe anything to C? In Basic, #t was -1.) 16:26:59 Coopting the generic name `direction' for a standard procedure is no worse than already having coopted the generic name `magnitude'. 16:34:42 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:35:12 Chicken is the only Scheme I can find that implements signum as part of the core, and it's for real numbers only, even with the numbers egg loaded. 16:36:23 ejs1 [n=eugen@95.135.127.112] has joined #scheme 16:36:39 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@95.135.127.112] has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:40 It pukes on general complex values with "bad argument type - complex number has no ordering" 16:37:53 showing how it is implemented. 16:37:58 "Abstractions leak." 16:39:08 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 16:42:14 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 16:43:12 9 footnote numbers following the same phrase must be some sort of record. 16:43:43 Yes, I presume it is meant to be a record of nine similar pieces of information... 16:44:31 So far I see no common factor at all. 16:44:55 Oh, nine footnote numbers following the same phrase, not with the same phrase following. 16:44:58 Good grief! 16:45:48 Only fn 8 seems to be in any way relevant. 16:46:02 Last week I saw a paper that had a footnote that had a footnote that had a footnote that had a footnote that had a footnote 16:46:34 There is a paper called "Nihil Annotated" that consists of the word "NIHIL" and a great many footnotes. 16:46:35 How did you read the last one? With a microscope? 16:47:05 They aren't stacked, they are serial. 16:47:43 Maybe Lisp should have called its empty list NIHIL rather than its abbreviated form NIL. 16:48:54 *jcowan* may implement SRFI-99-draft for Chicken. 16:49:03 Chicken's native SRFI-9 records are very strange: no introspection possible. 16:50:52 Consequently, you can use the lolevel [sic] facilities to create record instances that have more or fewer slots than a record of that type is supposed to have. 16:50:56 To the dissector's chagrin, indeed. 16:51:01 because the "is supposed to have" is not known at runtime. 16:51:20 I think I asked Felix why he did that, and I don't remember his answer. 16:51:32 Probably because it was cheap and easy. 16:51:35 That's a change from former behaviour, by the way. 16:52:00 Records are just vectors that have to have a symbol in slot 0 and have a special type code saying they're records and not vectors. 16:52:33 Right. But once upon a time, Chicken's SRFI 9 implementation did record introspection information. 16:52:44 Then Felix stripped it. 16:53:24 If a comparator is a procedure that takes two arguments and returns an element of {-1, 0, +1} indicating respectively whether the first argument is less than, equal to, or greater than the second argument, what is a good term for a procedure that takes two arguments and returns #T if the first is less than the other and #F if otherwise? 16:54:10 Well, ABS doesn't work on complex numbers either 16:54:51 Yes, zbigniew, which is why we have MAGNITUDE. So I think SIGNUM & ABS, and DIRECTION & MAGNITUDE, are good pairs. 16:55:00 Riastradh: < is a good name for it. 16:55:11 or generalized-< if you insist. 16:55:49 jcowan, not in prose, and not as a lexeme in names. For example, `This procedure takes a < and returns a foo.' (define (comparator->< comparator) ...) (define (<->comparator <) ...) 16:56:23 OIC. 16:57:22 Then I fall back on less-than in code and "less-than procedure" in prose, I suppose. 16:57:28 Such weirdness might incur accusations of Perl 6 envy. 16:57:45 I see, I didn't read the backlog since your original proposal 16:58:10 Granted that SIGNUM should be in, DIRECTION should be too. 16:59:09 Although some people might think, seeing DIRECTION, that it meant what ANGLE means. 17:00:23 I don't think there's much of a danger of that. 17:02:32 If we ever extend Scheme with quaternions, DIRECTION and MAGNITUDE will generalize to quaternions, whereas ANGLE will not, just as ABS does not generalize to complex numbers. 17:03:06 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:20 Maybe it was slightly tenuous to use the words `just as' there. 17:03:33 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:03:35 DIRECTION being a point on the unit hypersphere, or zero? 17:03:48 Right. 17:03:55 I believe I have seen |...| applied to complex quantities in print. 17:04:11 Yes. 17:04:37 Suggesting that the split between ABS and MANGITUDE is rather arbitrary, though convenient for my feature groups. 17:05:01 (MANGITUDE being a function that returns how mangy a complex number is.) 17:05:35 The notations |...| and ||...|| are used for many purposes. Mathematicians are OK with adjusting their pronunciation according to locale. 17:05:37 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:05:53 *jcowan* nods. 17:07:13 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-nsmseiatdoigwkyl] has joined #scheme 17:07:25 r5rs abs 17:07:25 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_286 17:07:27 In fact, I think |...| on complex numbers is more often pronounced `modulus' than `magnitude'. 17:07:27 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/lltdrw 17:08:23 And `angle' may be more often pronounced as `principal argument'. But neither `argument' nor `modulus' is fit for these purpose here. 17:09:51 In any case, ANGLE is sufficiently specific that I don't think it will be confused with DIRECTION. 17:12:04 -!- ada2358_ is now known as ada2358 17:14:42 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.139.20.198] has joined #scheme 17:18:02 Heavy overloading of terms there. 17:18:17 Overloading of meanings with terms, that is, not overloading terms with meanings? 17:18:20 Is there a connection between modulus, in this sense, and modulo? If so I am not seeing it. 17:18:27 Both, actually 17:18:30 Not really, as far as I know. 17:18:36 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 17:20:14 Etymologically, `modulus' to mean magnitude makes more sense than to mean divisor in integral division, but outside complex analysis I think that the latter meaning is more common. 17:20:29 It is time for me to rectify my lack of lunch today. 17:22:14 *jcowan* nods and goes off to the office to do likewise (and to interview yet another hapless candidate for the Google Sausage Machine) 17:24:25 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:34 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 17:25:09 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 17:26:25 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslei115.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:35:07 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.139] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:47:32 -!- jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@cpe-69-205-162-163.stny.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:47:40 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:50:20 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:52:47 Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 17:54:31 dysinger [n=dysinger@97-126-117-131.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 18:04:59 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 18:09:01 incubot: What do you see as your qualifications to be a Google Sausage Machine? 18:09:05 - but you win unconditionally on the sausage front. 18:10:58 incubot, how would you like to be an Oompah-Loompah at the, er, sausage factory? 18:11:01 oompah, loompah... 18:11:23 incubot, or does Oompa-Loompa lack h's? 18:11:26 oompa, loompa... 18:11:41 You know what'd be neat is if you could set it so drscheme instead of erroring out on "old bytecode" that it compiled the relevant modules. 18:16:58 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 18:17:19 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:17 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:22:31 incubot: willy wonka and the google sausage factory 18:22:34 hey, dude, sausage, the law, and libraries. 18:24:16 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.139.20.198] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:45 *Daemmerung* ponders the mangitude of his abs 18:29:56 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:34:28 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:57 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:03 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 18:39:24 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:42:48 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:55:11 haesbaert [n=haesbaer@201.54.129.16] has joined #scheme 19:00:30 -!- haesbaert [n=haesbaer@201.54.129.16] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:37 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-fstzexihwciphvyj] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:05:58 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.136.142.212] has joined #scheme 19:10:18 ejs1 [n=eugen@95.135.127.112] has joined #scheme 19:10:39 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@95.135.127.112] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:28 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.136.142.212] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:01 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:29:14 mejja [n=user@85.229.182.73] has joined #scheme 19:30:00 -!- untouchable [i=un@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:46 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.127.112] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:13 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:38:12 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:38:21 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 19:50:18 Here is what I would like to have: a set of (X)HTML page fragments in template files on disk. Various servlets will load these pieces and compose them on the fly. 19:51:19 I've been using the PLT web server and its templates. unfortunately, the expectation there was that you'd be pulling in full pages, 19:52:12 not components. So my results are being "helpfully" HTML encoded, which fouls everything up. 19:52:44 I've now spent two days trying various solutions and googling and I'm still at square one. This /can't/ be this hard. 19:52:53 What am I missing? 19:54:37 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:56:07 sepult`` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:57:29 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@97-126-117-131.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:30 incubot: dude, you're getting a dell 20:02:33 i thought there is a dell between nipples... 20:04:59 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:05 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Success] 20:05:08 dstorrs: you want to put in a cdata node in your xexprs to embed a template 20:05:20 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 20:05:36 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/templates.html#(part._.H.T.T.P_.Responses) has an example 20:09:10 hi jay. Nice job with the web server et al, by the way...it's making a lot of things much easier than I had hoped. 20:10:31 aha! The CDATA part, of course. 20:11:01 Thanks; I can't tell you how many times I've been through that page and apparently skipped right past that line. 20:11:49 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-67.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:12:05 no prob 20:12:47 it is easy to miss :) 20:13:00 let me know if you need anything else 20:14:10 will do. nothing like direct help from the author. :> 20:14:13 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:20:06 jay-mccarthy, hi! 20:20:16 jay-mccarthy: actually, there is one thing I'm a bit confused by. 20:20:17 Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:20:20 Fare: hey! 20:20:41 dstorrs: shoot 20:20:55 there's stateless and stateful servlets, and then there's the web server CLI tool 20:21:21 is there any reason not to run the web server tool, then have a mix of stateless and stateful servlets, 20:21:25 each in its own file? 20:22:28 or is the web server that the tool starts somehow different and intended more for dispatch-based serving? 20:22:44 from the docs it's not entirely clearly to me how the three fit together 20:22:46 not really... the cli doesn't give as much control as calling the serve functions directly and servlet-env (and insta) are really convenient 20:23:11 the tool just has ONE config and it can only be customized so much 20:23:41 the other options give much better control... particularly over url structure 20:24:59 obviously the cli is implemented using serve... it talks about how in chapter 4 of the web-server docs 20:25:37 so, what's the recommended way to set up a simple MVC web app with some state? 20:27:00 6666666666666 20:27:19 i would start with insta and then go to serve/servlet when you need more options 20:27:23 antoszka: the family of TheBeasts? 20:27:23 jay: if we're writing a web client, is the functionality for that in web-server as well? That is, constructing requests and parsing responses, as opposed to vice versa. 20:27:25 Excuse me. An imaginary cat walked over my keyboard. 20:27:29 dstorrs:  20:27:52 In reality it these were just my unwieldy hands. 20:27:56 s/it// 20:27:56 i don't really recommend the cli anymore but it is there for backwards compat 20:28:16 jay-mccarthy: ah, ok. 20:28:26 jay-mccarthy, you use plain drscheme for development? 20:28:28 but isn't insta marked as deprecated on Planet? 20:28:35 rickardg [n=user@c-077671d5.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 20:28:58 nothere: the api isn't documented but it hasn't changed in a long time... it is all in the web-server/http collect... also net/url implements a web client 20:29:12 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:37 dstorrs: the old one is, but one ships with plt now.. chapter 1 of the web manual 20:29:45 Fare: yes... only drscheme 20:30:17 i run my web apps from drs until i write the shell script and deploy 20:30:21 jay-mccarthy: I saw it, and I read the manual on it, but I thought that was just left in for backwards compat until "deprecated" turned into "removed" 20:30:31 better errortracing... etc 20:30:52 jay-mccarthy, DrScheme seems much slower at compiling. 20:30:56 dstorrs: ah no... insta started on planet and moved to the core (roughly) 20:31:05 Freezing for seconds when I recompile my app. 20:31:08 Fare: thats the debugging... but you can turn it off 20:31:24 ah, ok. Might be worth adding a note about that to the manual to clarify for others. 20:31:24 got to options in the module language level 20:31:56 i assume that most people have not looked at planet... maybe thats wrong 20:32:42 when I'm first starting with a language, the first thing I do is check it's libraries, but maybe that's just me. 20:33:04 I don't understand what makes my app so slow. I asked ebzzry to use profile... haven't heard from him since. 20:33:34 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:34:30 there are many more libraries in the core than on planet... unfortunately... we are working to separate stuff better 20:34:59 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 20:35:27 Fare: profile is very useful... and so is using current-memory-use to track things 20:36:21 we must be doing stupid judging that the app is not doing that much. A cursory look at the code doesn't reveal anything obvious. 20:36:28 -!- bweaver [n=user@24-247-129-155.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:36:36 send it to me if you want 20:36:38 profiling saved my day with XCVB let's hope it helps with CDVN. 20:37:00 What is CDVN? 20:37:28 And what keyboard has *those* letters in a row? :-) 20:38:17 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:40:32 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 20:41:43 chandler: the Internal keyboard ? 20:41:43 *Intercal 20:41:43 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-207.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:49 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-207.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:43:40 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:43:51 jay-mccarthy: so, making sure I have it clear now...insta is purely local, and is mainly for development. serve/servlet is intended for actual production use. And the CLI is there for historical reasons. 20:44:13 correct 20:44:29 cool. that makes it much clearer. Thanks. 20:44:32 insta is basically for doing fast tests and showing off 20:44:35 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 20:44:40 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:45:01 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 20:45:09 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:52:14 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:52:29 GRRRRMPH 20:52:48 Git is so extremely helpful when it sets the tty interrupt character to be ^G when you're trying to edit a bloody commit message in the Emacs subprocess it runs. 20:53:25 `Oops, I didn't want to M-x foobar; ^G. Oops, maybe it was a mistake to use Git.' 20:53:26 -!- samth [n=samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:53:39 *mejja* gives Riastradh a glass of Granrly Head 20:55:31 How do I undo `git add'? 20:56:25 `git rm --cached' I think 20:56:39 -!- mejja [n=user@85.229.182.73] has quit ["linus for president!"] 20:56:40 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:57:00 plain `git rm' also deletes the file (I found that out the hard way) 20:57:49 !? 20:58:05 What lunacy would induce someone to make it actually delete the file from your file system, and not just from Git's records? 20:58:46 there is a post by Linus on it somewhere, but it didn't convince me 20:59:05 Oh, beautiful! `git rm' also does shell expansion...on its shell-expanded arguments! 20:59:46 Good bloody luck trying to deal with a repository with files that have asterisks in their names... 20:59:52 jonrafkind [n=jon@155.98.68.48] has joined #scheme 20:59:59 \\\\* 21:00:15 The man page doesn't say whether it respecst backslash escapes, though. 21:00:35 Respects, even. 21:01:04 Riastradh: er, most VCSes I know of delete the file from your working copy on the 'rm' operation. 21:01:27 Unless it is committed -and- currently modified. 21:01:52 This is one of the things that cvs got *right*. 21:01:54 Darcs doesn't. For that matter, the only reason for `darcs rm' to exist is to remove it from the repository *without* deleting it from the file system. Otherwise, why don't you just use `rm' and let Git/Darcs/whatever figure it out? 21:02:17 http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitFaq#Whyis.22gitrm.22nottheinverseof.22gitadd.22.3F (I meant the post by Junio) 21:02:18 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/n79uqg 21:02:21 git init should create a '-rf ~/' file by default 21:02:27 Darcs is an odd bird 21:03:01 Riastradh: I think the idea is someone might use "X rm file" then copy a file into that location before committing. If you use the repository's remove command it can record that the file was removed and replaced, not just modified. 21:03:19 p1dzkl, wow! What a great rationale: `Why is ``git rm'' not the inverse of ``git add''? Don't think of ``rm'' as the inverse of ``add''. That would only confuse you.' I get it now! 21:03:51 You do? Let's try to confuse you even further. 21:03:59 I'm not saying I think it's a good assumption, but that might be what they're thinking. 21:04:05 Also, do not question holy Linus. 21:04:28 "Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken" 21:04:35 This is not limited to git, don't lay it on Linus alone 21:04:45 zbigniew, yeah, Darcs is odd in that I can think of very UI decisions that they really got wrong. I know of one -- but they fixed it when I reported it. (Formerly, during interactive `darcs record', if you hit `?' for a list of options, it would show the options and then show the patch in question again, possibly obscuring the list of options.) 21:04:45 Oh. Don't question conventional wisdom. 21:05:02 chandler: that's better 21:05:33 incubot: also, monorail 21:05:36 Packages also contain information about where to get the package's source code, what optimization passes to perform, what structures to open (we'll get to this later), et cetera. 21:05:51 ... as delivered by saint and prophet Linus. 21:05:51 Oh, whoops. 21:06:15 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 21:07:13 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:22 Riastradh: [Otherwise, why don't you just use `rm' and let Git/Darcs/whatever figure it out] -- A commit doesn't automatically pick up new files either, you have to add them--so neither should it delete files without an explicit instruction to do so 21:07:39 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 21:08:13 I wasn't suggesting that it should automatically remove the file from the repository -- but it can figure out that it should consider whether you want the file removed from the repository. 21:08:32 In Darcs, if you delete the file, `darcs record' will ask you whether that's one of the changes you want to include in the patch you are recording. 21:09:15 well, darcs has an interactive UI, and the others are ... "batch?" 21:09:50 so, an "rm" command is the equivalent of the interactive prompt 21:10:03 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:10 OK. That doesn't mean that there is any reason whatsoever for it to actually delete the file from your file system by default. 21:10:18 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:10:23 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 21:10:32 Right. Why not do what CVS does: bitch if the file is still present, and provide an option which causes it to actually delete the file? 21:10:45 That's reasonable too. 21:10:47 incubot: what would CVS do 21:10:50 I think the worst part about doing assignments on paper is just having to write out the inevitably crappy syntax, I find it painful to write C++ code on paper, Scheme would be one of the best imo 21:11:06 my incubot-fu is weak right now 21:11:27 incubot: what would do CVS? 21:11:31 that would be one way, or assemble a substring and use string->number 21:11:54 incubot: i'll get concurrent on yo' ass 21:11:57 I was thinking it lent more freedom to implementers to do concurrent arg eval, because they wouldn't have to worry about breaking (very rare) existing code that assumes sequential arg eval. 21:12:18 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:13:03 Riastradh: I don't disagree but in almost all cases a filesystem 'rm' is the next manual step for me anyway; I don't know if ther's a rationale beyond automating that step 21:13:24 s/ther's/Thor's/ 21:13:28 Very seldom do I actually want to delete it from my file system. 21:13:37 In almost all cases, a filesystem 'mv' is the next manual step for me. 21:14:04 may I ask why? 21:14:22 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@155.98.68.48] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:33 we are discussing a file that was versioned but is being removed from version control, correct? 21:16:27 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:54 eli: I'm told you have a cool system to produce html dynamically on top of scribble ? 21:17:53 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:21:03 zbigniew: If I'm removing a file with local edits from version control, usually it's because I screwed up the name, the location, or the partitioning of the file somehow. 21:21:31 Fare: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/templates.html 21:21:43 Don't know if that was eli's originally or not. 21:25:28 thats not 21:25:37 it is something else 21:25:48 to be used rather than xexprs 21:30:02 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:30:25 sstrickl_ [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:31:00 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:31:01 -!- sstrickl_ is now known as sstrickl 21:32:03 chandler: git rm won't delete the file if it has local edits 21:34:47 -!- rickardg [n=user@c-077671d5.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:59 chandler: what jao said; also, if you screwed up the name, you should be using the 'mv' operation; otherwise you'll lose version history 21:39:22 ... assuming you're not still using a VCS that doesn't support move tracking, such as *shudder* CVS 21:40:15 incubot: I checked a CSV file into my VCS, CVS 21:40:18 naturally scheme48vm.c isn't checked in. 21:41:30 If you screwed up the name *or* the location, that is. Partitioning--well, the solution is simple--just cp it before the rm. :) 21:43:05 zbigniew: I think this started with Riastradh having added a file that he didn't mean to add there, with that name. 21:43:20 and wanting to know how to "undo" the add before it was committed - so, added, not committed, no history to preserve. 21:43:29 jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@cpe-69-205-162-163.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:44:20 Actually, this had nothing to do with adding or removing files to begin with! 21:44:40 But Git cleverly uses the words `add' and `remove' for operations that have nothing to do with adding or removing. 21:46:37 chandler: Hmm, then for this specific case, I don't know what git does for "added but uncommitted" files. It shouldn't delete them; hg does not nor does svn (iirc) 21:49:03 git rm won't delete a staged ('add-ed') file either 21:50:05 "git rm --cached a-new-file" -- "This removes the entry from the index, without touching the working tree file." 21:50:14 So... what's the fuss about now? 21:50:16 huh. of the 6 permutations, VSC is the only one that is not actually a known acronym 21:52:50 What are SVC and SCV? I suppose SVC is sometimes an abbreviation for `service', such as in NFS or djb land. 21:53:17 -!- nothere [n=nothere4@98.14.187.196] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 21:53:20 -!- jay-mccarthy [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 21:53:27 or infamously, svchost.exe 21:54:24 I forget whether it was Vista or 7 to finally show *which* service was horking on the CPU in Task Manager, instead of just displaying a useless "svchost.exe", but I was very happy to see that. 21:54:40 night all 21:54:42 -!- dstorrs [n=user@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:55:08 kernel_task 21:55:42 That's just OS X's way of reminding you that computers are not for doing I/O. 21:58:07 You can issue "tasklist /svc" on WinXP. There's that `svc' sequence again. 21:58:59 But what's SCV? 21:59:34 That one's new to me. 22:00:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCV 22:00:42 That's cheating, Fare. 22:00:58 "Several complex variables" my ass. 22:01:42 if I didn't like cheating, I wouldn't be using computers. 22:03:52 schemer999 [n=schemer9@76.89.231.7] has joined #scheme 22:07:47 Serializable continuation value. An attribute of Schemes that can schlep a continuation across process boundaries. 22:07:58 *Daemmerung* handwaves 22:08:35 *Fare* pets Daemmerung and gives a good grade. 22:15:01 aleix [n=aleix@124.200.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 22:16:26 -!- aleix [n=aleix@124.200.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 22:16:34 aleix [n=aleix@124.200.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 22:18:45 -!- aleix [n=aleix@124.200.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 22:19:06 let's say i have a list of string value pairs. is there a way in scheme to introduce top level bindings so that if "Thing1" were in the string list with the value 1, after processing the list, i'd have a variable Thing1 defined at the top level with value 1? 22:19:27 Fare: Yes, what Jay said -- it's not the web template thing, and it's used quite differently. 22:20:01 Fare: But it's not completely robust ATM, although it's looking much better than anything I tried before. 22:20:02 eli, where is it? 22:20:04 i have a work-around, writing the defines out to a file, and loading them back in, but that seems pretty ugly. 22:20:34 Fare: On our "internal" repository... 22:20:53 *eli* must run now 22:22:02 *Fare* likes CL-WHO's optimizing of (>>> "Hello, " (em x)) into (begin (write-bytes #"Hello, ") (write-escaped-html-string x) (write-bytes #"")) 22:22:12 is it accessible? what URL? 22:22:23 no run-time consing! 22:27:07 No, schemer999, you can't do that, because the set of bindings in your program is already fixed by the time it begins executing. 22:29:34 schemer: you can have your program write a different program then load it. 22:29:57 (basically what you are already doing) 22:30:31 -!- sepult`` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:52 ok, thanks Riastradh and Fare. 22:36:36 Is there a standard function like map but is gaurenteed to be called in order 22:36:37 ? 22:36:50 SRFI 1's MAP-IN-ORDER, Arelius`. 22:36:55 Thx! 22:39:56 MononcQc [i=MononcQc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:41:54 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:49:38 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 22:49:45 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:22 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:20 it's alive!!! 22:55:32 it is? 22:56:13 after struggling the whole night... overlooked a tiny detail with huge impact :\ 22:59:34 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:02:01 Pegazus [n=Pegazus@186.124.196.231] has joined #scheme 23:03:42 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:03 Sveklo [n=sveklo@213.243.181.131] has joined #scheme 23:17:04 leppie: that was dr. frankenstein's downfall as well 23:24:00 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:29:04 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:10 -!- nightmode [n=Carbon@194.146.155.70] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:36 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:32:47 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-127.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 23:33:15 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:37:41 nightmode1 [n=Carbon@194.146.155.70] has joined #scheme 23:40:48 -!- MononcQc [i=MononcQc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING THE LATEST VERSIONS OF INTERNET"] 23:48:14 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@213.243.181.131] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:14 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:21 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:00 -!- masm [n=masm@bl8-56-187.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:52:35 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:54:05 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-207.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:54:46 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:52 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-230.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme