00:10:29 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 00:15:24 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 00:21:33 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:29:08 peter_12 [n=peter_12@24.82.7.81] has joined #scheme 00:30:15 -!- steiger [n=steiger@189.105.30.127] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:36:44 well, i've found webscraperhelper, but it's not too helpful considering documentation is non-existant 00:44:23 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:50:16 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0577E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:52:16 -!- jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:55:42 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 00:56:52 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:00:21 syntropy_: All you have to do is find any XPath doc and figure out the right XPath, and then translate that into SXPath. 01:03:02 -!- btnz [n=bitnoix@mna75-3-89-83-43-131.dsl.club-internet.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-mskbqzsbssdsqntw] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:10 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@pacman.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 01:19:08 -!- ada2358_ [n=ada2358@pacman.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 01:21:01 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0577E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 01:23:35 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0577E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:29:22 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:31:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 01:33:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 01:35:38 steiger [n=steiger@189.105.30.127] has joined #scheme 01:35:51 steiger pasted "error in compile" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86901 01:36:00 can someone please explain to me the error above? 01:36:12 it works in the REPL but not in compile 01:38:02 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:40:19 steiger: aside from that being a horrible thing you should never do ever, I can't see anything wrong with it. 01:41:24 steiger, EVAL takes two arguments: an expression and an environment in which to evaluate the expression. 01:41:30 What happens when you pass only one argument is random. 01:41:35 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:42:43 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:43:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 01:43:14 Keep in mind that this is PLT's ""Scheme"" (to add some necessary quotes to eli's notation), which is not the same as any version of Scheme defined in the Scheme reports. What happens at a call to `eval' with one argument *is* well defined there, and I have no idea what that actually is. 01:43:28 synx: see my problem: i got some structure with some values, and i want to make a generic get function, so it would remove verbosity. like, (get 'mother obj). the function should do some other checking, but in general it would then have to call (struct-(the symbol passed) obj). is this a bad idea? 01:43:45 Yes, steiger. 01:43:47 Yes, absolutely. 01:43:51 Next question? 01:43:56 damn. 01:43:59 Oh no! I'm duplicating Riastradh again! 01:44:15 but, even that being a bad idea 01:44:31 is there a way? i mean, witohut macros? 01:44:37 steiger: you can try OOP if you *really* want it. 01:45:15 Axioplase: i'm just experimenting, i use python when i need OOP 01:45:23 chandler: These days, PLT's `eval' with no second argument is almost always going to be broken, so it is pretty close in spirit to the one in r5rs. 01:45:26 what's wrong with macros? 01:45:39 chandler can take over from here so that he need not repeat me. 01:45:45 steiger: I don't understand why the "without macros" restriction is there. Somewhere, somehow, you're going to have to get from the symbol at runtime to the getter procedure. 01:46:08 i'm saying 'without macros' because, well, i didn't get to learn macros yet 01:46:17 steiger: That means a table must exist, mapping symbol to procedure. The natural way to define this table is via syntax. 01:46:34 generic functions are supported by PLT, so you probably should just use what they have if you want generics 01:46:48 i see 01:46:48 eli: Ah. Well, the explicit second argument is wildly different form the one that the R5RS expects too. 01:46:51 But is it as random as Brownian motion, or less? 01:47:06 It's as random as the motion of nasal demons, I think. 01:47:24 that is, by making Obj a function/object, like: (define obj (lambda (msg) (case msg ((mother) 'mummy!) ((father) 'daddy) ((plus-one) (lambda (x) (+ x 1)))))) 01:47:36 Like, does the second argument default to with-input-from-geiger-counter? 01:47:59 (call-with-gas-mask are-you-my-mummy?) 01:48:11 then, (get 'mother o) rewrites as (o 'mother) and does your job. 01:48:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:48:30 chandler: Different -- of course -- but not at all wildely. The short version is that `eval' can make sense if you give it the right namespace, where the namespace can be taken from an "anchor" in the module. So it's actually a kind of a nice generalization of r5rs's `eval' that plays nicely with modules. 01:48:55 chandler: No, I'm not your mummy. I'm the Doctor \o/ 01:49:17 God, that episode is freaky. 01:49:22 rudybot__: init scheme 01:49:23 chandler: your scheme sandbox is ready 01:49:28 Axioplase: hmmm 01:49:29 rudybot__: eval (scheme-report-environment 5) 01:49:29 chandler: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: scheme-report-environment in module: 'program 01:49:46 Hmph. 01:50:06 incubot: is rudybot being obtuse again? 01:50:10 If your program is so obtuse that it requires special tools to describe how it works, you're not using sufficiently expressive idioms in the language. 01:50:19 Axioplase: hmmmm, yeah. 01:56:13 How to loop over the environment variables in PLT? It seems there are only getenv and putenv so it is necessary to know what variables are their a priori. 01:56:14 peter_12, memo from p1dzkl: you can use the program `planet', which is included with PLT Scheme, to download packages from PLaneT 01:56:47 p1dzkl: thanks 01:57:10 s/their/there/ 01:59:55 peter_12: Yes, there is no way to do that (other than using the ffi). You can raise this point on the mailing list -- or better, hack a patch that will add the relevant functionality. (It would also be nice to be able to remove a vairable, which is missing too.) 02:00:03 rudybot__: init r5rs 02:00:03 eli: your r5rs sandbox is ready 02:00:07 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:08 rudybot__: eval (scheme-report-environment 5) 02:00:08 eli: ; Value: # 02:00:12 chandler: There. 02:00:49 Right. That's "Scheme", not ""Scheme"". :-) 02:04:47 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:04:47 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:04:47 -!- edwardk [n=edwardkm@209-6-103-127.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:04:47 -!- poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:04:47 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-168-78-251.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:04:47 -!- danking [n=danking@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:04:47 -!- shawnps [n=shawn930@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:04:47 -!- m811 [n=user@84-50-207-42-dsl.est.estpak.ee] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:05:06 danking [n=danking@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 02:05:08 m811 [n=user@84-50-207-42-dsl.est.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 02:05:14 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:05:15 poe [n=poe@void.printf.net] has joined #scheme 02:05:16 shawnps [n=shawn930@129.10.116.123] has joined #scheme 02:05:24 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 02:06:10 edwardk [n=edwardkm@209-6-103-127.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:06:13 tltstc [n=tltstc@76.168.78.251] has joined #scheme 02:09:04 Goodnight everyone. 02:09:06 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.231.131] has left #scheme 02:10:08 eli: thanks and sent to the list 02:10:35 peter_12: replied. 02:14:38 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:14:45 Hallo jcowan. 02:14:57 hey there 02:15:01 I've just been reading srfi-99 02:20:44 offby1 error, you should be studying srfi-100 02:21:30 Yes, yes, I'm going to look at that too. Just for *@#$s and giggles. 02:27:06 -!- xwl_` [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:28:38 I don't like how SRFI-99 requires a low-level macro system to implement its syntactic layer. 02:29:48 What is the low-level system used for? 02:29:54 Appending identifiers? 02:33:08 Yes. If the constructor and prediccate names are #t, then you get the ol' make-foo and foo? 02:33:35 and if the field name is bar, you get foo-bar; if it's (bar), you get foo-bar and set-foo-bar! 02:33:40 Big whoop, says I. 02:33:54 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 02:34:04 "Terseness in markup is of minimal importance." 02:34:45 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:34:53 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.162.79] has joined #scheme 02:35:21 Darki [i=Darkstar@p57B55ABF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 02:35:23 This kind of use is common enough that I believe it should be standardized so that Schemes that do not provide a low-level macro system can still support identifier appending. I don't believe it requires any significant breaking of hygiene, either. 02:35:58 Furthermore, it would be of use in implementing a library system that supports renaming of imports by appending a prefix. 02:38:46 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 02:39:37 But it does mean that define-record-type a la SRFI-99 can't be written in syntax-rules, whereas its SRFI-9 progenitor can be. 02:39:47 That's bad from a Thing One standpoint. 02:40:16 I grant that prefixing cannot be done with syntax-rules alone, but I'd rather have that be the only mechanism of its kind. 02:40:17 I was going to argue for the inclusion of some identifier-appending syntax in Thing One anyway. 02:42:18 As I mentioned before, my belief is that the Thing Two library system should be minimally expressible in the Thing One macro system, which means that some form of identifier concatenation syntax must be provided (or that identifier prefixing would have to be optional, but I think that's less than desirable.) 02:43:40 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@24.82.7.81] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:52 carpeliam [n=chatzill@68-187-222-9.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:43:55 chris_bryant [n=chris_br@cpe-75-84-206-87.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:44:05 In any event, I'm off for the evening. 02:44:41 if i wanted to pass a function as an argument, how do i do that? let's say i want to pass the "first" function as an arg, because i want to call it from within another function 02:45:09 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.62.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:29 A function ("procedure" in Scheme jargon) is like any other object: if you have it in a variable, you can pass that variable as an argument. 02:46:14 All "first" is is a global variable that happens to hold that procedure. 02:48:02 jcowan: i don't have it as an object or anything yet.. right now i have this http://pastie.org/613179 02:48:06 -!- Dark-Star [i=Darkstar@p57B572E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:29 actually that seems to work, so.. thanks. :) 02:51:34 "Object" in Scheme covers numbers, strings, pairs, procedures, ..... 02:52:27 The names of Scheme procedures aren't magic. 02:58:41 jcowan: did i just parse correctly that you are now referring to the two working groups as thing one and thing two? =) 02:58:46 -!- steiger [n=steiger@189.105.30.127] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:05:16 No, the work products. 03:05:25 -!- carpeliam [n=chatzill@68-187-222-9.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4pre/20090905201626]"] 03:06:04 What the charters call "small Scheme" I call Thing One, and what they call "large Scheme" I call Thing Two. This usage is beginning to spread, too. 03:09:08 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176206021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:13 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176204227.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:10:59 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:46 Wow, the UK apologized to Turing! 03:17:53 Cool! 03:18:23 ah 03:18:37 i'm sold. nice names ;) 03:18:59 who then, on the program committee is the cat in the hat? =) 03:20:17 I'd say the whole steering committee is. 03:20:28 They can decide among themselves who is the cat and who is the hat. 03:20:35 =) 03:20:38 chandler: Was your "jewel" question serious? 03:22:27 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 03:40:33 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:35 offby1`` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:43:27 rudybot___ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:44:40 -!- offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:46:20 hrmm, what pastebot is recommended in here? 03:48:04 lisppaste: 03:48:41 http://paste.lisp.org/list/scheme 03:49:31 edwardk pasted "experimental plt monad lib" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86914 03:49:51 any thoughts on how to make that feel more natural and schemy? 03:50:27 i seem to find myself stuck using a lot of plt specifics to get the class structure, and since it branches on more than one axis, scheme records don't seem well suited. 03:50:32 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@76.168.78.251] has quit [] 03:53:13 basically it passes the monad as the last argument, by 'reader monad transforming' the monad sugar it uses, so you can say things like (define (modify f) (do (x <- get) (put (f x)))) ;; and it works polymorphically with regards to the underlying monad, since you pass it in as the last argument. 03:53:28 so modify can be used for any monad that implements the monad-state interface 03:53:49 *jcowan* fears the monad. 03:54:48 it has the advantage that unlike every monad tutorial or writeup i've seen for scheme that it lets you write code that doesn't care what monad it is working in. 03:55:00 er for scheme monads that is 03:55:12 edwardk: here's a suggestion: "rm"... 03:55:23 eli: ouch ;) 03:55:55 -!- rudybot__ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:59 <- wanna be category theorist, can't help myself ;) 03:56:31 peter_12 [n=peter_12@24.82.7.81] has joined #scheme 03:56:41 More seriously, I'm suspicious of monads in haskell -- I see them as an excuse to not feel bad while the pure language turns to the usual imperative mess. 03:57:04 eli: i rarely use monads for IO. i use a lot of monads for plumbing however. 03:58:13 eli: it is a lot nicer to change one monad definition than to rewrite 30 functions to propagate an additional piece of state or another environment argument when you decide afterwards you need another option in your compiler or what not. 03:58:20 Sure -- if that was for an IO monad that I'd actually be very serious about the "rm" suggestion... It would be ridiculous to use an IO monad to mimic side effects in a language that actually has them. 03:58:59 But I've never seen a use of monads that was striking as something that would be useful in scheme. 03:59:32 eli: well, check back with me in a few weeks and i'll see if we can change your mind. ;) 03:59:36 You see, even here you said "propagate an additional piece of state" -- how about adding a global definition to the module? 04:00:08 It's going to be available to all functions in the same module -- no monad needed. 04:00:27 ("no monad needed" should be made into some song.) 04:00:31 eli: sure, but what happens then when you want to use that module later in two different fashions simultaneously then? that global definition is polluted. 04:02:06 eli: in general though, i agree that it is an awfully heavy weight solution. 04:02:46 but, as I was asked to put together a library of these, I'm still trying to do a good job of it ;) 04:03:27 I'm trying switching it over to PLT rather than the previous hackish approach, just to have access to some kind of class system though. 04:05:11 -!- chris_bryant [n=chris_br@cpe-75-84-206-87.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:05:27 arrgh why can't I mix defines and expressions not at toplevel 04:05:44 I don't want to define the button as dummy-button it just exists as a side effect 04:07:05 edwardk: Hold on with the monads just a second... 04:07:08 kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.66.50] has joined #scheme 04:07:20 eli: the examples that interest me monadicallly are things like the free monad, or the cofree comonad, or the prod-type monad, which aren't simple state plumbing. 04:07:35 edwardk: Is the problem that you have related to keeping state in two (or more) separate "instantiations" of the code? 04:08:23 (I definitely don't know monads well enough to know off-hand all animals in that zoo.) 04:08:36 -!- kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.66.50] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:42 kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.66.50] has joined #scheme 04:09:08 eli: state is a crappy example, because it is easy. the free monad might be a better example, because it does something non-trivial leaving little markers inside of a tree structure for expansion by later monadic actions. 04:09:42 or the prod-type monad which lets you do a similar thing with annotated trees. or the cofree comonad, which lets you do things like incrementally precalculate folds over lists or other functors. 04:10:13 the fact that the cofree comonad expresses more cleanly in scheme than haskell is kinda nice actually. 04:11:01 I don't suppose that there's a way to demonstrate one of these issues (that you think justify the need for monads) in half-a-page of code, right? 04:11:31 http://comonad.com/scheme/monads/cofree.scm -- which uses an older version of my monad sugar. 04:11:32 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 04:13:05 where be the zygohistomoprhic prepromorphisms? 04:13:38 there are other non-trivial monads that are useful as well, for instance the yoneda lemma in category theory is a rigorous form of 'map fusion', the codensity monad makes rigorous the administrative use of continuation passing style. 04:13:58 so once i have the base library you can define a new monad with just a few lines. 04:14:00 edwardk: That's about 1.2 pages... 04:14:30 And it uses `load' -- that's a 200% penalty right there. 04:15:46 eli: thats because it imports the old version of the monad library, it has to get the definitions from somewhere if you don't want this to degenerate into one of those pathetic monomorphic 'here is a monad in scheme' toys. 04:16:14 as for load, blame dan friedman, since he doesn't seem to acknowledge that module systems exist ;) 04:16:32 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 04:16:33 the plt version is just to help me keep my sanity ;) 04:23:19 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.132.15] has quit [Success] 04:26:19 kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.128.103] has joined #scheme 04:27:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:28:17 -!- kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.66.50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:30:50 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 04:32:42 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 04:35:48 -!- offby1`` is now known as offby1 04:37:35 How do you stop a server started with serve/servlet, anyone know? 04:38:37 oh I get it, it waits so just kill the thread it's in 04:43:51 lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:51:37 kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.135.150] has joined #scheme 04:52:41 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.128.103] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:50 -!- kssreeram_ is now known as kssreeram 04:53:39 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:57:03 i like to cycle the power myself 04:57:25 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@98.222.133.165] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:59:43 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@68.34.67.216] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:19 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-246-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:18 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-225.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:38 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:18:10 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:18:21 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 05:19:01 kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.66.219] has joined #scheme 05:19:11 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.135.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:40 -!- kssreeram_ is now known as kssreeram 05:22:05 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:28:55 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.66.219] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:58 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 05:32:54 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 05:36:54 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@24.82.7.81] has quit [] 05:38:03 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:39:39 no, killing the thread doesn't work. meh... 05:43:22 *synx* just wraps the whole thing in a new custodian 05:44:22 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:58 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:52:29 Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:55:15 Qui custodiet ipsos custodies? 05:55:54 me! 06:00:31     , . 06:04:01 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 06:05:22 ffo-os 06:05:27 "Who guards the guards?" --Latin proverb 06:05:31 Who, me or eli? 06:07:31 charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has joined #scheme 06:13:00 (parameterize ((current-custodian (make-custodian))) 06:13:21 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:38 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:00 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:16:59 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:19:15 Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:24:08 dbabu [n=deepak@122.174.100.194] has joined #scheme 06:33:47 who guards the custard? 06:36:35 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:38:40 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:12 What do the schemers scheme? 06:42:23 --stupid proverb 06:44:46 Who provs the proverb? 06:47:41 ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 06:54:16 HG` [n=HG@85.8.75.88] has joined #scheme 07:01:08 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:14 -!- Darki [i=Darkstar@p57B55ABF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 07:06:40 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.213] has joined #scheme 07:24:09 -!- charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has quit [] 07:24:19 Vapour [n=vapour@213.239.193.124] has joined #scheme 07:34:22 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:36:14 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:40:07 ebzzry [i=rmm@122.53.87.97] has joined #scheme 07:41:20 Does a graphical stepper for single expressions exists in DrScheme? 07:42:43 Not in the general module language. 07:43:03 eli: How can it be made available? 07:43:42 Ugh, strike that. 07:43:52 The debugger does step through expressions. 07:44:19 eli: Were you referring to the `Debug' button? 07:47:08 ebzzry: Yes. 07:47:52 eli: if the definitions window contain lots of definitions, how can I use the debugger to step through just one expression, say from the interactions window? 07:48:21 I think that you can set a breakpoint when you right-click an expression. 07:48:38 But I don't know how it interacts with expressions on the repl. 07:48:52 (Can you tell how often I use debuggers?) 07:49:04 Is stepping assumed to be done from the definitions window? 07:49:42 I *think* so, but don't quote me on that. Like I said, I'm not a big client of debuggers. 07:50:04 Ok. Do you suggest other ways of stepping? 07:51:11 -!- dbabu [n=deepak@122.174.100.194] has quit ["brb"] 07:55:00 charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has joined #scheme 07:55:48 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@140.sub-75-213-217.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 08:02:13 hello. I have defined a function (analyze px py pz), where px..pz are list entries 08:03:16 now I need one more parameter in (analyze), which should stay the same for each analysis for the list entries 08:04:39 but when I define (lambda (px py pz ar),..), and ar is not a list, it won't take it 08:04:47 so what is the way to do it? ^^ 08:06:10 -!- m811 [n=user@84-50-207-42-dsl.est.estpak.ee] has quit [""If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program. The rest of them will] 08:12:52 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:15:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 08:16:10 lisppaste: url 08:16:10 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 08:16:17 Vapour: paste some code there ^^^ 08:17:59 m811 [n=user@84-50-207-42-dsl.est.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 08:18:59 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:19:06 leppie [n=lolcow@41.244.199.242] has joined #scheme 08:19:09 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-151.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 08:21:38 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.231.213] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:05 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:17 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 08:34:30 m811: what is the rest of your quit message? 08:35:26 (because it was cut off) 08:40:55 ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 08:49:12 hkBst: http://www.friendpaste.com/10EQwP9icto4VAG1yNjzTY 08:50:04 so what I want to do is get AR and led out of (analyze) 08:50:13 and hand them as variables 08:50:50 and then run the analysis for LED1 and all px..pz list entries and then LED2 and all px..pz list entries 08:52:02 Vapour: (define (make-analizyer led) (lambda (px py pz) ...)) (for-each (make-analyser 'led1) l1 l2 l3)) 08:53:05 -!- ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:53:26 ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 09:00:46 -!- ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:01:33 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:33 ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 09:02:21 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 09:03:46 Axioplase: so (lambda) knows the variables within (make-analyser)? 09:12:13 merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #scheme 09:12:47 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 09:24:20 -!- ebzzry [i=rmm@122.53.87.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:29 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:32:15 mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 09:38:06 Vapour: a call to make-analyser with parameter "led" will return a lambda that knows "led". 09:38:37 It's "basic" scoping and higher-order functions stuff. 09:39:14 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@41.244.199.242] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:39:51 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:41:00 Axioplase pasted "adder" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86921 09:41:00 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-151.res.pomona.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:41:10 Vapour: just like that (look at the paste) 09:51:36 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:56:13 -!- charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has left #scheme 09:58:01 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:58:17 masm [n=masm@bl10-7-96.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:08:52 kssreeram [n=kssreera@61.247.251.10] has joined #scheme 10:16:28 ebzzry [i=rmm@122.53.87.97] has joined #scheme 10:19:42 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:20:26 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:33:48 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #scheme 10:35:00 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has joined #scheme 10:36:21 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:38:26 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:39:41 edwardk1 [n=edwardkm@209-6-103-127.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 10:40:46 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:43:41 -!- edwardk [n=edwardkm@209-6-103-127.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:45:09 steiger [n=steiger@189.105.71.238] has joined #scheme 10:51:16 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:52:14 leppie [n=lolcow@41.244.199.242] has joined #scheme 10:52:30 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:02:48 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 11:07:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 11:09:20 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:17:08 -!- steiger [n=steiger@189.105.71.238] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:20:40 Vapour: and PLT scheme has got a curry function that does exactly what make-adder does, just with every function 11:23:46 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@41.244.199.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:01 -!- ebzzry [i=rmm@122.53.87.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:40:22 leppie [n=lolcow@41.244.199.242] has joined #scheme 11:43:24 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@41.244.199.242] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:05:28 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 12:08:58 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:15 eli: No. The intended recipient got it: I was being sarcastic, to point out that "jewel-like" is an ideal which has no concrete instantiation, and so arguments of being "not jewel-like" should be replaced with actual arguments about semantics. 12:09:40 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 12:10:51 eli: Regarding monads, what is your opinion of the use of monadic style in The Reasoned Schemer? 12:12:05 sclv__ [n=sclv@c-68-32-44-18.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:40:39 mejja [n=user@c-3fb7e455.44-2195-74657210.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 12:41:15 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-168-78-251.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:45:11 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-215.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 12:45:35 derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8DF14.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:56:28 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:05:00 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-108-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:05:07 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-108-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 13:05:12 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 13:05:21 sphex_ [n=nobody@74.56.185.244] has joined #scheme 13:06:21 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has quit [] 13:10:04 Hmm, plt docs seem confusing 13:10:31 To get a decently rich quasi-standard language, might I use #lang scheme? 13:11:38 Guest52629 [n=moe@p54A0C821.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 13:12:29 Jafet: erm, well. Somehow, kinda but not really. 13:12:56 Just zipping here in case the answer fits in one line of irc 13:13:18 the 'scheme' language in PLT is more immutable and as far as I remember, supports keywords, which r6rs does not. 13:13:50 Hrm. Does plt support r6rs now? 13:13:54 edwardk [i=c72ec6e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-cgklwtlyxxafnvar] has joined #scheme 13:13:57 (but I always use the 'scheme' language, as it is the standard) 13:15:00 Jafet: The 'scheme' language is the PLT perspective on r6rs. So yes, it does support modules and all that stuff 13:16:04 Ok. Thanks for clarifying 13:17:28 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:20 leppie [n=lolcow@41.244.199.242] has joined #scheme 13:19:18 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 13:19:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:21:22 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@41.244.199.242] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:21:43 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:47 -!- ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:21 leppie [n=lolcow@41.244.199.242] has joined #scheme 13:47:06 Riastrad1 [n=rias@pool-141-154-236-59.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:53:12 Riastrad2 [n=rias@pool-151-203-232-134.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:56:16 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-7-96.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:57:31 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-194-120.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:58:08 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:59:42 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-64-254.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 14:05:16 -!- Riastrad1 [n=rias@pool-141-154-236-59.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:33 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@94.229.66.40] has left #scheme 14:08:00 -!- Riastrad2 is now known as Riastradh 14:17:58 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@61.247.251.10] has quit [] 14:21:35 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-231-131.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:36 Hello arcfide. 14:27:17 Yuck! 14:27:21 Google is all different and ugly! 14:27:46 The new larger search box? 14:28:01 It's different, but I'm not sure it's ugly. 14:28:07 Ugly! 14:28:15 -!- derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8DF14.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 14:28:33 It seems like a natural reaction to increased display DPIs. 14:29:01 -!- Guest52629 is now known as MoZe5 14:29:21 I don't think so, not everything on the page scaled proportionally. 14:29:55 That's silly, chandler. 14:29:58 Most definitely ugly. Noticed it yesterday, maybe the day before. 14:30:26 I don't see anything different. 14:30:34 arcfide: Search. 14:30:47 Fortunately, with OmniWeb's handy-dandy source editor and redisplay button, I can make it look much better again by stripping off the stylesheet and menu bar at the top. 14:31:07 TimMc: I don't see anything different. 14:31:08 chandler: I don't think DPIs have increased much. Besides, the existing high-DPI displays just use the extra rez to do fancy smoothing, as far as I can tell. 14:31:17 I don't normally use Google, though, so maybe I'm missing something? 14:31:26 arcfide: They increased the font size in the search box, and especially in the search suggestions. 14:31:48 Looks pretty small to me. 14:31:50 arcfide, they increased the size of the text in the search box and supplied particular button icons rather than making vanilla submit buttons to be rendered by the browser. 14:32:28 :-? 14:32:49 I gotta say, I don't see it. 14:33:17 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:33:21 I maybe see the buttons, but the fonts don't seem big. 14:34:37 http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/now-s-u-p-e-r-sized.html 14:34:39 chandler: I've been playing with SRFI-46, and it seems that I can add that extension to Chez Scheme without any trouble. 14:35:10 arcfide: If you clear your cookies, you might be able to see it. 14:36:32 arcfide: If you have (... ...), I think you can define a `define-syntax/riastradh' and `let-syntax/riastradh' which accepts SRFI-46-style named ellipses in pure `syntax-rules'. 14:36:39 chandler: Oh, now I see it . 14:36:55 (I *think*. I'm not sure about that.) 14:37:06 chandler: I was thinking of just rebinding SYNTAX-RULES to handle it. 14:39:40 ebzzry [i=rmm@122.53.87.97] has joined #scheme 14:40:04 Right. That works if you can rebind things in the expansion phase. 14:40:07 Is HTDP2e complete by any chance? 14:40:28 Excuse me, chandler. It's not SYNTAX-RIASTRADH. It's SYNTAX-ATTACKS!. 14:41:46 Oh, right. 14:41:57 Well, you can signal a `syntax-perturbation' about my terminology. 14:42:14 Why can't I seem to use `let-values', I wonder... 14:42:32 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:42:46 Obviously you are making a VEBCAK. 14:43:00 (Violat{ion,or} Exists Between Chair and Keyboard) 14:43:52 Even the example from the R6RS results in `let: bad syntax in: (let ())'. 14:44:04 `let-values' *is* in (rnrs base (6)), right? 14:44:15 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 14:44:15 Yes, yes it is. 14:44:21 Sounds like a bug to me. 14:44:24 Indeed. 14:46:53 Oh, no! Maybe it was my own issue. 14:47:10 I think the source highlighting confused me. 14:47:36 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:44 Indeed it did. 14:47:48 Riastradh: How did the re-rendezvous-ing go? 14:48:02 It seems to be working for simple test cases. 14:48:43 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@vpn115.its.manchester.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 14:50:24 Heheh. 14:58:15 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:31 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 15:10:22 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:16:28 Hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.219] has joined #scheme 15:19:09 -!- Hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.219] has left #scheme 15:20:31 chris_bryant [n=chris_br@cpe-75-84-206-87.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:21:14 -!- rcy [n=rcy@d154-20-143-140.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:37 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-250.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:22:21 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:23:45 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@vpn115.its.manchester.ac.uk] has quit [] 15:24:04 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 15:26:49 -!- chris_bryant [n=chris_br@cpe-75-84-206-87.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:26:54 -!- ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:28:52 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-42-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:29:47 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:30:33 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:39:01 Suppose that I were to make a statement and then supply a constructive proof of that statement. Suppose also that this statement contradicts another statement made in the R6RS. What conclusion can be drawn from this? 15:40:21 That you're more thorough about proving your statements than the R6RS editors? 15:41:24 That implies that they made a mistake - er, violation - doesn't it? 15:44:21 chandler: do tell 15:44:44 Well, sure; but the editors are human, presumably, and meatbags make mistakes. I think a more interesting question is, what kind of mistake did they make? 15:45:04 chandler: Assuming that your constructive proof is sound, then it might be a counterpoint against something in the R6RS. It wouldn't be the first time that R6RS has been wrong. 15:46:33 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:47:45 arcfide: Well, I wasn't quite sure what to make of David Van Horn's response to me. Was he suggesting that my statement *must* be wrong because it contradicts the R6RS, or subtly pointing out the error in the R6RS? 15:48:14 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:48:26 chandler: Let me see if I know the message. 15:49:35 *chandler* must step away from the discussion now. 15:49:41 chandler: Is this msg-id 4AAA6C9D.2000609@ccs.neu.edu? 15:50:48 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 15:51:14 How is it possible to define identifiers unhygienically without the use of datum->syntax? What does 'syntax->datum' allow you to do? [General question] 15:57:05 jonrafkind [n=jon@155.98.68.48] has joined #scheme 15:57:18 -!- danfowler [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-201.autorev.intellispace.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:19 ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 16:04:16 jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:05:07 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.75.88] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:16 danfowler [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-201.autorev.intellispace.net] has joined #scheme 16:07:10 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 16:09:04 arcfide: `syntax->datum' allows you to bind any symbol as an identifier provided that an identifier whose symbolic name is `eq?' to the desired identifier is present in the input. 16:09:30 derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8DA23.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:09:50 arcfide: This is generally the case when unhygienic insertion is used: it does no good to unhygienically bind an identifier which will *not* be used. 16:11:39 arcfide: Thus, in the example I gave, `bind-it' unhygienically binds `it' if it is used in the input, and does not if `it' isn't. I believe that this version of `bind-it' can't be distinguished from one which is written using `datum->syntax'. 16:11:47 chandler: is this what they call identifier fishing? 16:12:12 I don't know who `they' is, but that sounds like an appropriate name. 16:12:27 al petrovsky I think 16:13:00 Oh; wasn't that about hygienic insertion, or am I misremembering? 16:13:24 it's still not really unhygienic, it just twisting 'locations' 16:13:32 kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.66.219] has joined #scheme 16:13:39 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:42 you still cant introduce a new identfier 16:14:03 Sure it is. You can't express that `bind-it' in pure `syntax-rules'. 16:14:33 If this isn't a breaking of hygiene, I don't know what is. 16:15:24 There are things which *can't* be expressed using this technique, but plenty that can be. 16:21:26 ok chandler, thought about it a bit, it IS breaking hygiene in fact 16:24:19 Removing hygiene information (turning the identifier into something which can be compared) is just as dirty as fabricating an identifier. In order to be hygienic, identifiers must only be compared with `{free,bound}-identifier=?' and not by symbolic name. 16:24:59 er, turning the identifier into something which can be compared to a symbol 16:36:37 Leonidas: ping 16:40:57 chandler: I am not sure that this is a breaking of hygiene. 16:41:13 chandler: to be fair, didn't oleg show a way to do seriously inhygienic binding with syntax rules by swapping out all the binders behind your back? 16:42:39 heh @ Alaric's "hygienic vs filthy" 16:46:34 merus [n=merus@128.211.176.50] has joined #scheme 16:47:36 The R6RS has two bullet points about hygiene and referential transparency as it relates to macros. What you did there does not violate either of those points. 16:54:46 arcfide: Fair enough - but I still don't like the idea of this kind of introduced binding. What is the proper term for what I *am* looking for? 16:55:56 changing the meaning of captured variable 16:56:01 identifier rather 17:10:16 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:36 chandler: Context Dependent macro behavior? 17:14:29 chandler: I agree that it's bad, because its behavior changes arbitrarily without good reason. 17:15:06 I don't have a good term for it either, though. 17:15:39 edwardk, no. 17:15:54 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:16:04 edwardk, that trick substitutes terms for names in the input form. That's different from binding names. 17:17:02 dysinger [n=dysinger@adsl-99-48-184-49.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:17:07 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:18:42 I think my problem with tags is one of polymorphism... 17:19:33 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 17:19:54 I want my tags to represent different things, but still be aggregable. 17:22:11 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #scheme 17:23:07 plt scheme docs: "(set! cock e)" 17:23:08 request gummi get both artist:gummi and candy:gummi... request artist:gummi and get only artist:gummi... 17:23:09 is it really a hierarchy though? 17:23:10 or just...a network... 17:23:18 Weird schemers 17:23:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-kkyhubifoscjsmfd] has joined #scheme 17:24:00 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-64-254.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:00 Jafet: What is the context? 17:24:40 A macro for a "clock" 17:25:18 can i use eval? :) 17:29:34 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 17:29:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-215.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:27 which are the typical cases where one uses scheme (except of education)? 17:31:56 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-108-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:36 That's a little broad 17:34:10 JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-088-065-192-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 17:35:05 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 17:35:55 So far, I've tested the hygiene implementation of the following R5RS implementations: Chicken, Gauche, Gambit, Larceny, MIT, PLT, and Scheme48. Only PLT and Scheme48 have passed. What other implementations should I test? 17:37:29 Chicken 3 with riaxpander. 17:37:49 Do you have a copy lying around, by any chance? 17:38:15 Hmm, I have Chicken 2.5 and 4.0.0, but that's all. 17:38:22 chandler: Tried Bigloo and Chez? 17:38:34 Here: 17:38:44 As for riaxpander, I imagine you can still run `chicken-setup riaxpander' to install it. 17:40:30 sjamaan: Chez fails. 17:40:39 The test I'm running is here, for reference: http://paste.lisp.org/display/86938 17:40:54 I believe that it should work in any conformant implementation of the R5RS. 17:44:27 peter_12 [n=peter_12@24.82.7.81] has joined #scheme 17:46:00 Is there anything I need to do to invoke Bigloo in a R5RS-compliant mode? 17:46:08 chandler: What do you consider this to be testing? 17:46:10 Sacrifice a Chicken. 17:46:37 I note that PLT and Scheme48 are I think the two schemes that separate phases into two different instantiations, aren't they? 17:47:00 Not if you mean what I think you mean, arcfide. 17:47:27 In Scheme48, in a single image, any one package is instantiated at most once (unless you reload it). 17:47:39 Riastradh: Okay, yeah, so it's just PLT that does this. 17:48:42 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:49:01 arcfide: Macro-defining macros and the R5RS behavior of (define-syntax syntax-rules ...) 17:49:38 I'm not sure whether this should work in a R6RS implementation. 17:50:02 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:50:27 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:32 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@24.82.7.81] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:51:03 I have *absolutely* no idea where Bigloo is going wrong here. 17:51:15 # Not a procedure -- 15 17:51:24 which comes from the line # (15 (display "FizzBuzz\n")) 17:51:53 It probably doesn't see mod-case as a macro 17:52:04 ... How could it not? 17:52:16 That, I don't know :) 17:52:18 Because you messed up the indentation, duh. 17:52:23 heh 17:52:29 I did? Blame DrScheme. 17:53:12 I wonder if chicken 3.4.0 will coexist with my already-installed 4.1.0 17:53:28 Can't you run `./configure --prefix=/foo/blat' or something? 17:53:29 You can install it under its own PREFIX 17:53:49 Ah. 17:54:06 chandler: syntax-rules is broken in bigloo. 17:54:14 at least with local macros 17:54:35 That's the answer I was looking for, thanks. 17:55:02 yeah, I also just found "Implementation Note: Current Bigloo does not ensure hygiene for let-syntax and letrec-syntax. Hygienic expansion is only guaranteed for define-syntax." in the docs 17:55:34 OK, I'm building riaxpander now. 17:55:37 -!- derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8DA23.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:56:16 Riastradh: ah good point. i just caught the finer points of what chandler was getting at. 17:57:03 OK, I built riaxpander, but I can't seem to run `csi -R riaxpander'. Grmph. 17:57:30 Oh. I missed a "sudo". 17:57:43 Once more, with feeling! 17:57:45 sudo make me a sandwich :) 17:58:31 Error: Invalid syntax:: (# () (chicken)> () ((# # (# . #) #) (# ... syntax-rules () (transformer define-groveler)> # # (# . #) #))) 17:58:41 yow! 17:58:42 Gosh, that's helpful. 17:58:42 Yikes. 17:59:06 Shame on whomever wrote code to make it behave so unhelpfully! 17:59:24 *Riastradh* glances about shiftily. 17:59:27 Mmm-hmm. Shame on whoever wrote code that behaves so unhelpfully in the first place! 18:00:10 It's the (define-syntax syntax-rules ...) that's bothering it. 18:00:18 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:00:24 Do you agree with my assertion that this ought to work per the R5RS? 18:00:30 chandler: I don't understand how your groveler works. 18:00:41 define-groveler doesn't seem like it should work. 18:00:45 And I get a syntax error from it. 18:01:21 chandler, sorry, I don't know; that macro is too hairy for me to understand it at a glance, and I'm busy working on something else right now. 18:01:45 ... Right. You'll get a syntax error from anything but PLT or Scheme48. That was the point of this hairiness. Replace the first inner definition of `syntax-rules' with `%grovel' and it will work in Chez. 18:02:52 arcfide: http://paste.lisp.org/display/86941 18:03:56 chandler: Were you expecting the error? 18:04:02 I expected to get an error from that code. 18:04:37 From the first version? I was expecting to get an error from any implementation which makes un-R5RS assumptions about visibility of bindings across phases. 18:05:21 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:05:29 chandler: In the second define-syntax of the define-groveler macro, you try to use the old form of syntax-rules, but the wraps on that 'syntax-rules' will be the same as the wraps on the 'syntax-rules' you just redefined. 18:05:34 The second version ought to work in R5RS or R6RS. It fails on some implementations (Gauche, Bigloo) and litters the top-level with a syntactic binding of `%grovel' on others (Chicken 4, MIT) 18:06:25 That is, you introduced a definition of 'syntax-rules' in the macro, and then you try to use it in the macro. That won't work. 18:06:30 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:06:38 I mean, using the old form of syntax-rules won't work. 18:07:32 arcfide: What do you expect (let-syntax ((syntax-rules (syntax-rules () ((_ . z) #f)))) (let-syntax ((foo (syntax-rules () ((_) #t)))) (foo))) to do? 18:08:28 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:09:40 chandler: I expect an error because it will try to use #f as a macro transformer. 18:10:08 That's a fine answer, but it's not the one that the R5RS implies. :-) 18:10:24 In every discussion on macros I have ever seen, that is what was implied. 18:11:10 I fail to see how any other interpretation of the results could be the correct one if lexical scoping and the normal phasing of let-syntax is to be maintained. 18:11:41 *Whose* definition of normal phasing? Why is a binding at phase 0 visible at phase 1? 18:12:14 for instance, what do you expect this to return? (let () (define x 3) (define-syntax a (syntax-rules () [(_) (begin (define x 'b) (define y x) y)])) (a))? 18:12:41 Assuming I copied that in right. 18:13:04 chandler: That's not a binding as phase 0. 18:14:54 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@74.56.185.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:12 Anyways, I need to get going, but I'm happy to continue this discussion later. 18:15:29 I have to hook-up somewhere else. :-) 18:15:34 arcfide: I don't think `define-syntax' is allowed as an internal definition in R5RS, isn't? 18:15:46 arcfide, I have uploaded a new implementation of CML for Scheme. 18:15:51 Riastradh: Great! 18:15:54 arcfide, see . 18:16:01 (I'm writing a README now.) 18:16:06 Thanks, I'm going to check it out a little later. 18:16:32 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-231-131.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 18:19:59 bawden [n=alan@gw.bawden.org] has joined #scheme 18:24:18 Riastradh: ;Unable to find file "mit-syntax" because: File does not exist. 18:24:57 mejja, did you read the README? 18:33:38 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:38:41 sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:39:14 derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8D63C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:40:50 ... of course not 18:42:32 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 18:45:33 mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 18:49:31 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 18:50:40 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:31 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:40 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:55:59 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:31 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:14 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:10:56 chandler pasted "PLT syntax bug?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86947 19:11:31 rudybot___: init http://paste.lisp.org/display/86947/raw 19:11:31 chandler: error: program:13:29: module: duplicate definition for identifier at: identifier in: (define-syntaxes (identifier) (syntax-rules () ((_) (quote m2)))) 19:11:38 rudybot___: init r5rs 19:11:38 chandler: your r5rs sandbox is ready 19:11:44 rudybot___: your underscores are showing. 19:11:44 chandler: eh? Try "rudybot___: help". 19:12:05 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-246-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 19:12:30 rudybot___, trim your toenails! 19:12:30 Riastradh: eh? Try "rudybot___: help". 19:13:20 skinnylover [n=skinnylo@195.238.188.231] has joined #scheme 19:13:32 Riastradh: Does that seem like a bug to you, or is there some subtlety I'm missing? 19:15:28 Why should that be a bug? You're not allowed to define a name twice. 19:16:46 Each one of those names should have a different mark (e.g. be distinguishable under `bound-identifier=?'), shouldn't it? 19:16:53 No. 19:17:01 IDENTIFIER was introduced once, by a single use of a macro. 19:18:34 ... Oh. 19:21:14 (Why does Scheme48 actually work on that code, then?) 19:21:25 Scheme48 doesn't prohibit multiple definitions of the same name. 19:22:05 Oh! I wasn't reading the output. :-) 19:23:21 chandler pasted "what I actually wanted to test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86948 19:23:33 rudybot___: init http://paste.lisp.org/display/86948/raw 19:23:34 chandler: your "http://paste.lisp.org/display/86948/raw" sandbox is ready 19:23:37 rudybot___: 'my-output-please 19:23:38 chandler: eh? Try "rudybot___: help". 19:23:43 rudybot___: eval 'my-output-please 19:23:43 chandler: ; Value: my-output-please 19:23:44 chandler: ; stdout: "(m1 m2 m3 m4 m5)" 19:23:49 rudybot___: init r5rs 19:23:49 chandler: your r5rs sandbox is ready 19:26:42 Riastradh: Do you see anything problematic in that version? 19:27:12 Nothing jumps out at me. 19:27:25 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-246-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:51 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-246-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 19:28:30 Riastradh: In an indirect way, I've just been told that Chris Hanson believes that MIT Scheme's behavior with regard to macro-defining macros at the top level is correct. Do you have anything to say about this? 19:28:52 What?? 19:29:03 Macro-defining macros in MIT Scheme basically don't work. 19:29:25 You can use them in code you load into the interpreter, but that's all. 19:29:36 Specifically with regard to the behavior of http://paste.lisp.org/display/86402 19:30:09 MIT Scheme's treatment of that is wrong. 19:30:50 I'm going back and forth with Arthur Gleckler and Felix Klock in private email about this. I agree with your interpretation, Felix is borderline, and Arthur indicated that Chris says that it's correct. 19:31:19 Well, Chris is wrong, then. 19:32:12 You can tell them I said so, too. It's non-hygienic, and you need the hygiene for macros that introduce temporary definitions at the top level (which you need to be able to do if you want to refer to the names in several other top-level forms). 19:32:31 I thought I fixed that bug, anyway! 19:32:31 Yes. That was my argument as well. 19:32:59 Oh, right, I remember now. 19:34:11 Gosh... 19:34:33 chandler pasted "define-and-use-variables" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86950 19:35:54 http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.3 19:35:57 -rudybot___:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5ajrz2 19:36:17 Do you have an opinion on the proper behavior of this macro, given the statement in 4.3 that "Note that a define at top level may or may not introduce a binding; see section 5.2" 19:36:20 ? 19:37:38 That should print (V1 V2 V3 V4 V5). 19:37:45 related: http://www.mail-archive.com/chicken-users@nongnu.org/msg10901.html 19:37:53 I imagine that in Scheme48 and PLT Scheme it does, but not MIT Scheme. 19:38:01 Felix Klock is asserting that this may not need be the case, per the R5RS. 19:38:52 p1dzkl, that message is nonsense, assuming that Chicken distinguishes Foo and foo. 19:39:04 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@adsl-99-48-184-49.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [No route to host] 19:39:27 chandler, your macro generates a sequence of definitions of different names. 19:40:09 I believe that to be true, which is why I'm confused that others are asserting that `define' is not a binding construct and thus the definitions may not actually be of different names. 19:40:09 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:18 (or that it may not be a binding construct.) 19:40:23 That's ridiculous. 19:40:27 (You can tell them I said that, too.) 19:40:35 I think it does distinguish them by default 19:41:11 The statement that "a define at top level may or may not introduce a binding" seems to support this view. 19:41:43 No, it doesn't, chandler. That statement is a red herring. 19:41:57 -!- edwardk [i=c72ec6e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-cgklwtlyxxafnvar] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:42:10 If the name is already bound, DEFINE does not create a new binding for it. But these are different names, each uniquely generated from a distinct macro invocation. 19:42:26 I am new in scheme. There is an example in SICP about bank account and lexic scope with dispathcing in function ,Is this a normal technique for scheme and CL? 19:43:18 Riastradh: Herr Klock believes that this statement provides the other part of the puzzle: "Some implementations of Scheme use an initial environment in which all possible variables are bound to locations, most of which contain undefined values." 19:43:56 Riastradh: Thus, `identifier' there is already bound, and such what is captured is the top-level binding. 19:44:15 ... except, that's *not* the case in MIT Scheme; `identifier' clearly isn't bound. 19:44:32 Again, that's a red herring. What matters is that each invocation of DEFINE-AND-USE-VARIABLES generates a *new* name, which, in that invocation, you refer to by the pseudo-name IDENTIFIER. 19:44:56 I agree, but I seem to be running out of words with which to convince these folks that this is the case. 19:46:40 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 19:47:15 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.66.219] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:57 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:54:50 Riastradh: Suppose the most recent example were preceded by (define identifier 1). The applicable wording in the R5RS is "If a literal identifier is inserted as a free identifier then it refers to the binding of that identifier within whose scope the instance of syntax-rules appears." Given that `identifier' is free in this macro, and the resulting define form is top-level, why isn't it a reference to the top-level binding of define? 19:54:57 er, of identifier? 19:55:13 -!- TimMc [n=timmc@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 19:55:50 One interpretation is that it should redefine the existing binding, if at the top level, and shadow it, if in an internal scope. 19:56:23 fSorry, not `shadow it', but introduce a new binding. 19:56:38 Each new binding shadows the old ones, though. 19:57:00 A top-level `define' of an already defined identifier shadows nothing: it is equivalent to `set!'. 19:57:44 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:47 I see their argument now. But it's still a bad idea. 19:58:00 So are Scheme systems in which every name is pre-bound. 19:58:11 Yes. I'm fully in agreement that it's a bad idea. 19:58:22 I'm also convinced that, for the macro version, their argument does *not* hold. 19:58:29 `define-syntax' is explicitly a binding construct. 19:59:24 In practice, I believe that *only* a system where all names are pre-bound is allowed to have MIT Scheme's behavior. 19:59:36 `identifier' clearly isn't bound in a fresh MIT Scheme REPL. 20:05:30 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:05:36 Lemonator [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:05:49 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-74.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:12:10 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 20:15:50 -!- skinnylover [n=skinnylo@195.238.188.231] has left #scheme 20:19:18 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:19:27 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 20:21:41 timmc [n=timmc@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:22:25 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@pool-71-178-182-238.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:24:57 -!- timmc [n=timmc@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:43 dysinger [n=dysinger@99.48.184.49] has joined #scheme 20:55:32 Leonidas: "If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program. The rest of them will write Perl programs." 20:57:47 s!Perl!Perl/APL/A+/J/K/K4/Q/TECO/...! 20:58:53 Heh. J and K I believe. APL, I'm not sure they'd figure out how to use the keyboard :-) 20:59:32 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 21:00:13 Oh, it's not so bad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_%28programming_language%29#Keyboard_layout 21:00:15 -rudybot___:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/mcccq3 21:00:19 wtf: Twitter is over capacity. 21:00:27 fail whale? 21:00:31 that happens all the time 21:00:42 *All* the time. 21:00:49 seriously? shows you how many times I click it 21:00:54 Complain to anyone with an @ in front of their nick over in #twitterapi 21:01:06 Twitter has no more capacity for inanity. It has reached a universal limit. 21:01:07 now it's fine again 21:01:16 "lost network connection" now, for me 21:02:33 WorksForMe 21:03:02 and now it's working again. well, that's what you get for using Ruby, I guess. 21:03:21 That's what you get for using /Twitter/. 21:03:24 sounds like ASP ;p 21:03:37 Oh, hey, funny story. 21:03:56 Try sending a correct, UTF-16-encoded SMS message to a twitter account. 21:04:25 Result? http://twitter.com/gnomon/status/3899396648 21:04:47 Want to see the way in which that is wrong? http://twitter.com/gnomon/status/3900315224 21:04:54 what's wrong? besides that I cant read jap 21:05:04 leppie, see the second URL. 21:05:40 *leppie* does not follow 21:05:59 The problem is that the inclusion of the letter 'e' with an acute accent - in the word 'crêpes', in fact - caused Twitter to, as the saying goes, lose its tiny little mind. 21:06:01 why did you send a piece from a shell script to your twitter status... 21:06:24 synx, that shell script makes immediately obvious the problem in the previous one. 21:06:42 uh, something's not quoted or terminated in that 21:06:53 oh, it's not displaying the whole tweet 21:07:04 chandler, you can't copy and paste the shell script directly because of *further* Twitter brain damage. 21:07:08 It gets even better! 21:07:44 gnomon: ok. can you just give out the shell script here? :-) 21:08:08 the word 'crêpes' isn't in either twitter... 21:08:42 If you dump the contents of the shell script tweet - curl -s http://twitter.com/statuses/show/3900315224.xml - you'll see that the content of the tweet is actually doubly-encoded, and only displays correctly in a context where it is bunged without interpretation into an HTML file. 21:08:55 synx, yes it is. Just a moment. 21:09:13 Oh, I got the correct text from my standalone twitter client, but my non-GNU sed didn't like your odd replacement expression 21:09:23 Ah, yes, sorry. 21:09:41 gnomon: ok, can you use this to get past escaping in any fashion? 21:09:46 Yes. Quite. 21:10:06 Yikes. Have you sent this to security@twitter.com? 21:10:20 (by the by, your post about the Rails vulnerability made the rounds of the office without any action on my part. Well done!) 21:10:20 Thanks. 21:10:40 Gosh, you mean...Twitter isn't a secure communication medium and a paragon of secure web design? 21:10:59 chandler, no, I didn't send it to security@; I reported it to raffik, who has opened a ticket and sent it on to dev for action. 21:11:05 OK, good. 21:11:30 Riastradh, bah, their security is a joke. I'm just disappointed that they still aren't getting pretty basic format conversions correct yet. 21:11:32 Riastradh: Gosh, I'd even say that Ruby on Rails' Unicode support is a complete disaster. 21:11:39 I think I first ran into that misbehaviour a year and a half ago. 21:12:00 gnomon: This would be a lot easier for them to deal with if their programming language actually did something *sensible* with Unicode - but no, they've got Ruby on the frontend, and Java on the backend. 21:12:10 (Well, you can do sensible things with Java; I take that back.) 21:12:15 Yeah, it's horrid. 21:12:40 Hilariously, it also seems that the endianness of the UTF-16 encoding is swapped around somewhere during the non-translation. 21:14:20 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:01 Heh. 21:16:03 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 21:20:27 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 21:21:03 -!- MoZe5 [n=moe@p54A0C821.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:22:15 moe [n=moe@p54A0C821.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:22:40 -!- moe is now known as Guest9247 21:29:08 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-120-90.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:36:17 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 21:37:51 TimMc [n=TimMc@seawolf.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:42:05 -!- TimMc [n=TimMc@seawolf.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 21:42:24 TimMc [n=TimMc@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:42:46 -!- TimMc [n=TimMc@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 21:42:47 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 21:42:54 TimMc [n=TimMc@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:43:46 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:48 -!- proq` is now known as proq 21:46:38 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@99.48.184.49] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:51 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-42-61.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:38 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-231-131.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:48:40 patmaddo_ [n=patmaddo@68.4.202.46] has joined #scheme 21:54:40 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:55:49 *TimMc* smacks irssi for corrupting its own config files 22:03:24 incubot: How is Elvis, and have you seen him lately? 22:03:28 occasionally elvis if i need somethign special. 22:04:06 -!- mejja [n=user@c-3fb7e455.44-2195-74657210.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009080315]"] 22:09:10 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@140.sub-75-213-217.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:23 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:13:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 22:14:41 FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-38-253.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:17:56 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 22:19:15 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 22:21:53 chandler: Your `syntax-rules' posts are a great advertisement for why it's a bad choice as the only macro system. 22:24:41 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@46.sub-75-212-84.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 22:24:58 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:25:29 patmadd__ [n=patmaddo@64.sub-75-212-40.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 22:32:09 -!- patmaddo_ [n=patmaddo@68.4.202.46] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:32:35 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-120-90.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:05 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:27 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@46.sub-75-212-84.myvzw.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:42:01 eli, these issues independently of SYNTAX-RULES. 22:42:48 Riastradh: What issues? 22:43:25 The issues that chandler has been pointing out lately with various implementations of macro systems. 22:44:50 Yes, but that is only very loosely related to `syntax-rules' being a really bad language when you want to do more than simple template rewriting. 22:45:04 Sure, but that's a separate issue. 22:45:24 Um... that's what I just said. 22:45:40 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-38-253.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:45:48 ...er, yes, sorry, I managed not to read the first part of that message. 22:47:20 langmartin [n=user@adsl-074-167-038-128.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 22:47:51 -!- patmadd__ [n=patmaddo@64.sub-75-212-40.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:09 so um... cdddr: expects argument of type ; given ("synx" "log.ss") 22:51:20 when I (require (planet synx/log)) in anything 22:51:37 that log module being just a stupid little thing I cooked up nobody else would ever use ever 22:53:59 That only happens when I create a standalone executable. When I run it as a script, it works fine. 22:55:21 -!- langmartin [n=user@adsl-074-167-038-128.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:57:51 synx: you should probably report that on plt-scheme 22:58:09 we've had lots of problems with executable creation 22:58:40 syntropy [n=who@d216-232-238-114.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 22:58:40 ehn, okay 22:58:41 -!- syntropy_ [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:26 my list delivery has been completely flopping there 23:04:54 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:05:31 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:07:40 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:10:45 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 23:12:43 OH because my program broke of course 23:14:18 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@ludios.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:32 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:19:34 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@ludios.net] has joined #scheme 23:19:59 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 23:20:05 dysinger [n=dysinger@adsl-99-181-31-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:21:53 -!- samth [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:22:16 syntropy_ [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has joined #scheme 23:24:33 -!- syntropy [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:31:28 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-kkyhubifoscjsmfd] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:36:16 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@AMontsouris-152-1-35-147.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:38:28 -!- Ppjet6 is now known as Pepe_ 23:40:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 23:40:00 -!- Guest9247 [n=moe@p54A0C821.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:40:55 Riastradh: If I wanted to use your CML stuff for sockets, would there by any additional infrastucture necessary? I am thinking about something like libev. From my understanding, your library is just an abstraction on concurrent processes, not a means of implementing this processes, right? 23:41:34 chandler: Those are some nasty bugs that you have brought to light in MIT Scheme and Chicken. 23:43:33 chandler: If you are around, I would be interested in hearing why you think R5RS allows the behavior you think that it should. 23:43:51 lighterthanair [n=lightert@63.118.151.12] has joined #scheme 23:45:08 -!- lighterthanair [n=lightert@63.118.151.12] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:45:11 lighterthanair_ [n=lightert@63.118.151.12] has joined #scheme 23:46:08 -!- lighterthanair_ is now known as lighterthanair 23:49:08 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 23:50:54 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:18 moe [n=moe@p54A0C821.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:20 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:45 -!- moe is now known as Guest53038 23:53:46 saccade__ [n=saccade@18.100.0.104] has joined #scheme 23:55:27 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:37 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:55:49 arcfide, implement an operation for testing whether an I/O operation is ready (e.g., select for reads or writes with a zero timeout, &c.), for performing the operation if possible (e.g., accepting a connection, performing a write, &c.), and for associating an object with the I/O device which other code, such as your libev callback, will use to resume the process that tried to do the I/O operation. 23:56:05 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@18.100.0.104] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:50 arcfide, see for an (untested) example of how one would approach this in MIT Scheme. 23:58:24 Riastradh: For argument's sake, do you expect this to scale as well as a purely libev solution?